Americans whose usage of English is dysfunctional

[Absinthe]

Having been inspired by the writing style of a recently banned member, I would like to ask this question purely out of academic interest:

We've all seen it so often, what is the cause for poor english skills in a portion of Americans?

I don't mean the occassional typos, neither Aemma's pretence-ebonics :p I mean a recurring writing pattern of

-misspelling

-not capitalizing names as well as the first word of a sentence

-poor formatting, e.g. not using paragraphs, separating sentences with "..." etc.

-punctuation errors, such as using apostrophes instead of quotation marks (guilty as charged :D)

-semantic errors, grammar errors, syntax errors

-using they're instead of their, your instead of you're, etc...

I am not talking about an occassional mistake, I am talking about this being always the case.

And I wonder: is it an educational problem? Do schools fail to teach the language correctly?
Is it a cultural problem? Do people watch too much TV and come across too many instances of poor language skills?

Or.... (opinions).

(P.S. this thread addresses the question of linguisitc illiteracy in Americans only).

[Loki]

I don't think this is an American phenomenon only ... and to be honest, linguistic illiteracy seems rife here in England ... I'm not joking. :eek:

[Absinthe]

I wouldn't know about that!

I am guessing that the language skills of modern teenagers, chavs and subcultures in general, would be poor...but I haven't encountered such a phenomenon myself so I am unable to speak about it...

I know where you're coming from, however, as every second greek I meet makes unforgivable linguistic errors... However, it is only logical if one considers how ridiculously inadequate the greek education system is.

In the case of Americans, it is very strange because the american educational system is thought to be one of the best worldwide.

And having been educated in the american system I can testify of how superior it is to the local educational system, and I have to say that I also owe my learning patterns and methodology to the american system.

[The Lawspeaker]

I actually think that it is something that is going on in the Western World in general. Linguistic illiteracy is something that has become commonplace amongst Dutch (and Belgian) children and teenagers as well.

[Æmeric]

I noticed a lot of people are sloppy when writing on the net. I think it's a general carelessness. It may have something to do with texting or chatrooms where standard grammar has been abandon for the purpose of ease in sending quick messages.

The education system undoubtedly plays a part in the poor grammar of some people.

What really annoys me - and I've noticed more examples of this in the last few years - is when you see spelling errors in newsprint or even in the news headline running across the bottom of the TV screen.:rolleyes: The people responsible for those errors are college graduates for Christ's sake!

[Absinthe]

Do you abandon standard grammar for the purpose of ease in sending quick messages? ;)

[Frigga]

I have to agree Absinthe. I have noticed this on the forums that I frequent, and the spelling Nazi that I realize that I am deep inside has to seethe with annoyance at the very common, but dumb mistakes!

The ones I notice the most:
*Instead of whether, they type in weather.
*Instead of their, there, or they're, they'll use the wrong form. If it's possessive, it's their, if it's a location, it's there and if you could say they are it's they're.
*Instead of site, like website, they'll type in sight, like eyesight.

I believe that Æmeric is correct in that texting, and instant messaging are large factors in this laziness, and sloppiness in these errors. ADD, and ADHD are probably also to blame as well, and my personal opinion is that those attention disorders can be completely cured with proper diet, and a limit to television, and video games. Sugar, food additives, and colorings, and flavorings are poison to our youth, and yet they're toxins that are taken in everyday.

[Skandi]

I believe that Æmeric is correct in that texting, and instant messaging are large factors in this laziness, and sloppiness in these errors. ADD, and ADHD are probably also to blame as well, and my personal opinion is that those attention disorders can be completely cured with proper diet, and a limit to television, and video games. Sugar, food additives, and colorings, and flavorings are poison to our youth, and yet they're toxins that are taken in everyday.

I would say that some comes from texting, where space is at a premium and on chatrooms you need to type fast to keep up with the conversation, however there is no reason to shorten things of a forum such as this.

Some "spelling errors" are not errors at all, for example in your post colorings (colourings) and flavorings (flavourings) are wrong to me, but that's because you have written them in American English and I use Standard English.
Another cause of spelling errors which you will notice in a lot of in my posts (if I log on using IE at uni and so cannot run a spell check before I post) is dyslexia, and I'm afraid that that cannot be cured by diet.

As for punctuation, well I'm not American so I suppose this is slightly off topic, but I was never actually taught how to punctuate properly, my school believed you would learn through reading, well you don't.

One of my bug bears; people who say "I was learnt that" or "Will you Learn me that" taught and teach you muppet taught and teach.

[Absinthe]

ADD and ADHD:

I believe they are more often diagnosed in the U.S. than anywhere else, simply because of lack of information about them in other countries.

Therefore I don't think Americans show higher prevalence of ADD and ADHD. It would be interesting to know the true numbers in each nation :)

[Loki]

The thing that really annoys me, is when people cannot distinguish between there/their/they're, too/to and similar mistakes. These things should be mastered in the first few years of school, before kids are even 10 years old. But I find that many adults, even those with university education, have trouble with this. :confused:

[Absinthe]

You've misspelled "English" in the thread title, LOL!!:D:p

No, I did not!! :rolleyes: It was just a test to see if your english skills are adequate enough to recognize the error ;):D

Seriously now, I've been too tired. Can we fix it? :D

[Loki]

Can we fix it? :D

Fixed. :wink

[Absinthe]

Thanks :D

[Frigga]

Another cause of spelling errors which you will notice in a lot of in my posts (if I log on using IE at uni and so cannot run a spell check before I post) is dyslexia, and I'm afraid that that cannot be cured by diet.

Actually, according to Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, I believe that dyslexia can be helped by diet. The younger you start, the better the results. I remember hearing her in a lecture state that autuistic children also were able to suffer from dyslexia, and dyspraxia, which is physical clumsiness.

http://GutAndPyschologySyndrome.com

:)


As far as American English, and Standard English goes, I guess us Colonials just had to be different huh? :wink :D

[Eldritch]

I think subliteracy is a symptom, not the disease.

There are Finnish teenagers who have no idea which decade the Finnish civil war was fought in, do not recognise the names of most important historical figures, don't know how to do simple calculations without their cellphones, etc.

And what's even worse is that they're proud of their bovine ignorance. When these imbeciles grow up, we'll see a collapse in coherence across the board. Idiotopia will be achieved within our lifetimes.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Athough it can sound a little stilted, or self-consciously non-idiomatic, literary Americans put us to shame with their precise use of language, and I like that.

Just my two cents.

[Absinthe]

literary Americans

;)

[Fortis in Arduis]

Actually, according to Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, I believe that dyslexia can be helped by diet. The younger you start, the better the results. I remember hearing her in a lecture state that autuistic children also were able to suffer from dyslexia, and dyspraxia, which is physical clumsiness.

http://GutAndPyschologySyndrome.com

:)


As far as American English, and Standard English goes, I guess us Colonials just had to be different huh? :wink :D

Oh well, I am autistic and I have been binging on dairy products just recently.

It does have an effect. My parent brought me up on a non-dairy, non-wheat diet as they notice the opiate effect that these products had on me - nausea and euphoria.

I eat cheese and lie down in a reverie and I like it. Paneer is the freshly made cheese (which I think you would like, my dear) which people eat here.

North Indian food is quite something.

I would say that cutting these foods out does stop me from being so withdrawn and repetitive, although I miss the buzz too.

[SouthernBoy]

Why do you care?

[Loddfafner]

The new generation has grown up spoiled on spellcheckers and calculators. They are utterly dependent on machines. The one error that really stands out for me, and brings out my inner spelling nazi, is the confusion between 'then' and 'than'.

[Æmeric]

Do you abandon standard grammar for the purpose of ease in sending quick messages? ;)No. Except for rep comments with it's limit of the number of characters you can type. I don't text, I prefer email.


The new generation has grown up spoiled on spellcheckers and calculators. They are utterly dependent on machines. The one error that really stands out for me, and brings out my inner spelling nazi, is the confusion between 'then' and 'than'. Well excuse me. But when I'm in a hurry I do make mistakes between then & than, are & our, were & where, etc....

[Vargtand]

Well I try to make a point of writing and speak as proper as possible, of course (and mostly in English) my knowledge does fail me thus you see the Frankenstein before you..

[Aemma]

Having been inspired by the writing style of a recently banned member, I would like to ask this question purely out of academic interest:

We've all seen it so often, what is the cause for poor english skills in a portion of Americans?

I don't mean the occassional typos, neither Aemma's pretence-ebonics :p I mean a recurring writing pattern of

-misspelling

-not capitalizing names as well as the first word of a sentence

-poor formatting, e.g. not using paragraphs, separating sentences with "..." etc.

-punctuation errors, such as using apostrophes instead of quotation marks (guilty as charged :D)

-semantic errors, grammar errors, syntax errors

-using they're instead of their, your instead of you're, etc...

I am not talking about an occassional mistake, I am talking about this being always the case.

And I wonder: is it an educational problem? Do schools fail to teach the language correctly?
Is it a cultural problem? Do people watch too much TV and come across too many instances of poor language skills?

Or.... (opinions).

(P.S. this thread addresses the question of linguisitc illiteracy in Americans only).

I need to ask this question: when you ask about "Americans" are you talking about residents of the United States of America per se or are you talking about North Americans generally? I don't consider myself American at all--as the beer commercial goes: I. Am. Canadian.:D --so I wouldn't be answering this question as an American if you know what I mean. :) Just a point of clarification please Absinthe before I throw in my two-cents' worth. :)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Electronic God-Man]

Most of our mistakes come from words that sound very similar or are the same sound. They're/their, too/to, then/than.

Most of the time I think that the spelling errors are just from people typing fast. I think that they would know they made a mistake when they have enough time to check it.

I want to say English has more words that sound alike than most other languages, but I can't verify that. Plus, you would expect to see the same in other English-speaking populations.

[Vargtand]

How the hell can you make a mistake between they're and their? seriously I don't know about anyone else but I read every word that is written like that as they're as they are and I'm I am, you're as you are so I do not see how it is possible to make a mistake there..

Of course as for to and too I do make a mistake most of the time.. Seriously what is the rule for that???

[Loki]

Of course as for to and too I do make a mistake most of the time.. Seriously what is the rule for that???

They have completely different meanings.



Adverb

too

1. Likewise; also; in addition.
2. Over; more than enough; -- noting excess; as too much.


Compare with to (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/to), a preposition.

[Frigga]

Another way to remember the rule for "to" and "too"

I want to go to Suzy's house.

Oh, I'd like to come too.

:)

[Skandi]

Punctuate this;

John were James had had had had had had had had had had been what the teacher wanted.

It is a perfectly correct English sentence, only one person I know got it first time and she is Finnish.

[Absinthe]

I need to ask this question: when you ask about "Americans" are you talking about residents of the United States of America per se or are you talking about North Americans generally?

Hmmm... I mean American citizens of Anglosaxon or Northwestern European descent in general, not Mexicans or other minority groups.

I think you qualify :)

[Vulpix]

The one error that really stands out for me, and brings out my inner spelling nazi, is the confusion between 'then' and 'than'.

Same here. Equally irritating for me are they're/their and you're/your :coffee:. Argh!

[Vulpix]

Punctuate this;

John were James had had had had had had had had had had been what the teacher wanted.

It is a perfectly correct English sentence, only one person I know got it first time and she is Finnish.

I'll give it a try:

John, were James had, had had had had had had had had had been what the teacher wanted.

[Frigga]

Thrymheim,
This is probably not right, as commas and I don't always get along, but here's my attempt:

John, were James had, had had, had had, had had, had had, had been what the teacher wanted.

Go ahead and titter and giggle at my expense if I'm wrong! :D

[Vargtand]

Another way to remember the rule for "to" and "too"

I want to go to Suzy's house.

Oh, I'd like to come too.

:)

Why on earth would I want to go to Suzy's house?

[Vulpix]

Why do you care?

It looks retarded and/or lazy, and it is irritating because it is so pervasive. The difference between they're/their etc. is something that the average mother-tongue white English speaker should be expected to master by around 10 years of age IMO.

[Skandi]

Thrymheim,
This is probably not right, as commas and I don't always get along, but here's my attempt:

John, were James had, had had, had had, had had, had had, had been what the teacher wanted.

Go ahead and titter and giggle at my expense if I'm wrong! :D

Almost! you've got the right idea of the meaning anyway only one comma out in fact
John, were James had had, had, had had, had had, had had, had been what the teacher wanted.

[Frigga]

Why on earth would I want to go to Suzy's house?

Because Suzy's a great cook, who will make you fresh cookies for your visit, and serve piping hot tea! :wink

Just teasing! :D

[SwordoftheVistula]

I think it is because most people don't read books anymore, at least not as much.

I've noticed a lot more simple spelling and grammar mistakes in newspapers and magazines in the past few years.

It's been my observation that British people have by far the worst spelling and grammar of the native English speakers

[Brynhild]

I'm an English spelling and grammar Nazi from the old school. For example, organize(American) is spelt organise, color is colour etc.

If I want to articulate something, I'd rather get it right the first time, since English is the only language I can convey in. I don't need a spell check, I'll pull out a dictionary if there is a doubt over spelling. Rarely, if ever, I needed correcting - even now, in my middle age it's rare.

I get very annoyed when there is a distinct lack of effort in what a person attempts to write. The odd mistake is ok, and I commend those whose English is not their mother tongue - at the very least they try - but there is no excuse for poor grammar and vocabulary amongst those whose first language is English!

I will write in shorthand when I want to send a text or in the chatbox, but that's the only time!

[Absinthe]

John, where James had had "had", had had "had had'; "had had" had had been what the teacher wanted.

:fponder:

[Rainraven]

I think it is something that has been happening for a very long time. The english language, and our communication, is getting increasingly casual. It is a real shame that this has now got to the stage where it verges on rudeness adn disrespect. Correct spelling and grammar are just not seen as an important part of communication anymore :(

[Vargtand]

Perhaps not exactly applicable, but when I write Swedish I do write it as I speak it (to which I mean I do not try to write in a pompous fashion..) but indeed my language is slightly different from that of my peers. Even more so back a few years ago than today.

What I find extremely funny is when people try to correct my usage of the Swedish language, they will point out words in every second phrase I say or speak, yet it is from ignorance on their own part which causes what I say to seem weird.
It humours me quite a bit when people say that I misspell when in truth I spell much closer to how it should be spelled than what is the common way of spelling it now a days. Yes it is true I write and speak it a slightly old fashion.. so sue me.

[Skandi]

I think it is something that has been happening for a very long time. The english language, and our communication, is getting increasingly casual. It is a real shame that this has now got to the stage where it verges on rudeness adn disrespect. Correct spelling and grammar are just not seen as an important part of communication anymore :(

But to be honest they haven't been necessary for very long either, only since they started trying to standardise things had it mattered how you spell something. Perhaps we are just going back to how it once was?

[Beorn]

It's been my observation that British people have by far the worst spelling and grammar of the native English speakers

My Nan always said to me that "the best speakers and writers of English are those who are not English."

What people seem to forget is the English have more native diversity within its land than most would care to acknowledge.
It's why you have people who have "bug bears" over what is essentially local dialect.

"I was learnt that" or "Will you Learn me that", is the way by which many hundreds of thousands of people speak.

To be honest, I don't care for strict use of punctuation and care little for minor spelling mistakes, but constant spelling mistakes which are obviously through a lack of self appliance to writing correct English gets me wound up.

[Vargtand]

But to be honest they haven't been necessary for very long either, only since they started trying to standardise things had it mattered how you spell something. Perhaps we are just going back to how it once was?

Well that sounds a bit like you are using history to justify a behaviour that is of a different nature entirely from that behaviour you are drawing parallels to, (I wish I knew a word for it :P, but in essence it is a backward engineered argument).

This does not take into account that in the past there was not fixed rules how to write, this alone voids the merit of this argument as in essence it builds on the previous situation being as the current.
Secondly I would bet money on that the people who wrote in the days of old were quite consistent in their own spelling, people who make spelling mistakes although they are quite consistent with their errors their errors tends not to be the same all the time (self confession of a bad speller). This should indicate that modern spelling mistakes are made from poor knowledge while old “spelling mistakes” are not the same beast at all.

Lastly as our society is built up on information largely, the important of good grammar and correct spelling should be self evident, if spelling were let loose then you would have the possibility for multiple interpretation of… well any body of text at all. Now surely you can see that as lawyers have a hard time already understanding laws how much more difficult it would be for them if they could not even fully grasp the language?

Letting grammar go should be even more self evident as bending words in other forms can at best make the sentence seem nonsensical, at worst it will have an entirely new meaning.

Just my own reflections and 2 cents

[Skandi]

This does not take into account that in the past there was not fixed rules how to write, this alone voids the merit of this argument as in essence it builds on the previous situation being as the current.
No it brings up the question of whether there should be fixed rules.



Secondly I would bet money on that the people who wrote in the days of old were quite consistent in their own spelling,


I'll take your money then

in an age before standardised spelling, Shakespeare often wrote a word several times in a different spelling, and this may have contributed to some of the transcribers' confusion. Modern editors have the task of reconstructing Shakespeare's original words and expurgating errors as far as possible.

Source (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Shakespeare)

[Mikey]

And I wonder: is it an educational problem? Do schools fail to teach the language correctly?
Is it a cultural problem? Do people watch too much TV and come across too many instances of poor language skills?

Or.... (opinions).

(P.S. this thread addresses the question of linguisitc illiteracy in Americans only).
Pretty simple really, school curiculums have been "dumbed-down" to enable members of lesser Races to get by:coffee:

[Skandi]

Pretty simple really, school curiculums have been "dumbed-down" to enable members of lesser Races to get by:coffee:

I wonder, or is it that we are teaching more things, but to a lesser level?

[Osweo]

One of my bug bears; people who say "I was learnt that" or "Will you Learn me that" taught and teach you muppet taught and teach.
That's DIALECT, you Nazi!

You'd cringe horrendous lasting crows' feet into your face if you spent an hour or so in conversation with me! :P

And 'muppet'? Eee, you've got me wincing now! When did this word get popular? What's wrong with good old-fashioned pillock, wazzock, spacker or divhead? :wink

Here's what gets my goat; 'would OF'. :eek: Do the illiterate HONESTLY think the 've sounds like of? :(:confused:


It's all down to ideology in teaching. God help us.

[Skandi]

That's DIALECT, you Nazi!



Not where I come from it isn't and they still use it, grrr

[WinterMoon]

Not having read this entire thread, here is my two cents....

The occasional mistake happens to us all.

Some of us just don't care half the time.

A few type poorly because they are keeping up with whatever the latest trend is.

Some people who write for a profession are the worst spellers. Inborn perhaps? Lack of phonemic awareness? Inability to actively make use of stretegies for learning spelling?

Most individuals my age and younger were never taught properly in schools, or they were and never cared to learn it. How many of you can say you were taught how to diagram sentences, or can honestly go through a sentence and list the part of speech each word is (beyond subject noun and verb)?

In summary: sometimes it is inborn, sometimes it is attitude/ desire, sometimes it is lack of education, and sometimes it is just plain a typo. :thumbs up

[Rainraven]

A few type poorly because they are keeping up with whatever the latest trend is.

I think this is the worst one. When it's not a lack of intelliegence, but making the choice to write like an idiot. Lykk ppl dat riite lyk dis..!

:puke:

[Lenny]

I know where you're coming from, however, as every second greek I meet makes unforgivable linguistic errors... However, it is only logical if one considers how ridiculously inadequate the greek education system is.
I get the impression that people of all cultures often intentionally use what they know to be wrong grammar because it makes them seem more relaxed and more of a 'man-of-the-people'. (This is more true in Latin-American Spanish than in U.S.-English; the Latin-Americans really don't care at all about using proper grammar in their own language.) When I have to talk to blacks I notice that my spoken grammar takes an unintentional nosedive in quality:p It's weird because I don't even think about doing it consciously, but there it is.

It's so common to hear "I don't got any" (using "got" instead of the correct "have") in spoken English; yet everyone knows it's wrong. [also- I once heard "I ain't got none":D:D ...the only grammarically-correct word in there is 'I'..!"] Or "I seen that guy before" instead of "I've seen / I saw" (this applies to dropping "have" and "are" in all cases: "You been to New York?", or "You sure about that?", or "We been busy lately". The only one that rubs me the wrong way is when certain Southern-rednecks say "I done bought a pack of cigarettes", adding a useless "done" in there.

I still remember from elementary school this ditty: <<Ain't ain't a word, 'cause ain't ain't in the dictionary.>> :D It sums it up that although everyone knows it's wrong (even kids of 6-12 years old), the word will not die...even to explain why it's a wrong word, they use the word:p


And having been educated in the american system I can testify of how superior it is to the local educational system, and I have to say that I also owe my learning patterns and methodology to the american system.
You were educated in the USA, or some kind of American school in Greece? Some school systems in the USA are quite good, others less so. I get the impression that American schools in foreign countries are superb.

My theory on education would be that it all depends on the personal motivation of the student to learn. Starting I suppose around the 1950s, there's been a creeping laziness in the USA; rising living standards and an easier life mean people relax more and less willing to work to improve their writing and so forth. It's the curse of success.

[Lenny]

Punctuate this;

John were James had had had had had had had had had had been what the teacher wanted.

It is a perfectly correct English sentence, only one person I know got it first time and she is Finnish.
In what way is that a correct English sentence!:eek:

[Bloodeagle]

A public school education in the USA today, is the reason for this literary savagery.

Private schools and home schools offer the quality schooling that at one time were common throughout the American land.

With the influx of illegal immigrants and the general laziness of its native born, the United States has tried to social engineer its public schools around diversity.

Being taught in a system of status quo has led us to the pidgin English spoken by most Americans today.

However, when people are asked to write, their ignorance or intelligence may come shining through, regardless of their formal education and punctuality.

I hope that a few people might even be taught correct English by the spell checker.:coffee:

[Skandi]

I hope that a few people might even be taught correct English by the spell checker.:coffee:

It happens, it happens, my spelling is better now, than it was when I started on these forums. So long as you don't have it set to auto correct that is.

[Treffie]

One of my bug bears; people who say "I was learnt that" or "Will you Learn me that" taught and teach you muppet taught and teach.

This is common practice in Wales, but this is mainly down to the fact that the Welsh for `learn` is `dysgu` but it's the same word for `teach` also. It appears that this has been passed down to the non-Welsh speaking population.

[Skandi]

I make allowances for some things :) that counts as a foreigner to English anyway, I wonder if I can use that excuse...

[SwordoftheVistula]

This is common practice in Wales, but this is mainly down to the fact that the Welsh for `learn` is `dysgu` but it's the same word for `teach` also. It appears that this has been passed down to the non-Welsh speaking population.

Some backwoods parts of the US used to say that as well, perhaps they had high concentrations of Welsh immigrants

[Lenny]

Punctuate this;

John were James had had had had had had had had had had been what the teacher wanted.

It is a perfectly correct English sentence, only one person I know got it first time and she is Finnish.

So Thrymheim are you going to admit yet that the above cannot possibly be a sentence no matter how you slice it?:p

[Óttar]

This nose dive in the American education system started in the '60s. Before that, the standards were much higher. Nowadays, anyone and their mother can go to college. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had received a more classical and arts oriented education before going to college. There simply is no redeeming value in an American public school education. My happiest year of High School was my freshman year at a private institution.

[Vargtand]

Some backwoods parts of the US used to say that as well, perhaps they had high concentrations of Welsh immigrants

Could be none english speakers as well, like Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Dutch and germans. who all have this system as well to only use one word.. Thus causing most people today to say exactly just I was learned to do this, when speaking english..

[Osweo]

So Thrymheim are you going to admit yet that the above cannot possibly be a sentence no matter how you slice it?:p
Actually it could, IF she'd put the bloody 'H' in the 'wHere'! ;)

Some backwoods parts of the US used to say that as well (Learn for Teach), perhaps they had high concentrations of Welsh immigrants
It's nowt to do with other languages' influence. It's straightforward English, just not the 'Standard' variety. Old English did it, as it also used double negatives and many other supposedly 'wrong' things. :thumb001:

[Skandi]

Could be none english speakers as well, like Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Dutch and germans. who all have this system as well to only use one word.. Thus causing most people today to say exactly just I was learned to do this, when speaking english..


John, where James had had, had, had had, had had, had had, had been what the teacher wanted.


Actually it could, IF she'd put the bloody 'H' in the 'wHere'! ;)


Picky picky.

[Lenny]

John, where James had had, had, had had, had had, had had, had been what the teacher wanted.:confused:I still don't get it.:confused: :mmmm:

:dunno:

[Skandi]

two children have written a sentence, one has put "had" the other has written "had had" had had was the choice that the teacher wanted.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Actually it could, IF she'd put the bloody 'H' in the 'wHere'! ;)


Does that come from a specific place/class in England? Some people in the US used to say that, pronounce 'where' as 'hwere' etc, but it went out of use with the baby boomer generation, mainly middle/upper class people from the south were the ones who pronounced it that way I think.

[Rainraven]

two children have written a sentence, one has put "had" the other has written "had had" had had was the choice that the teacher wanted.

*10 minutes later...*

:lightbul: Aaaaaaaaaah it does make sense!

[RoyBatty]

This nose dive in the American education system started in the '60s. Before that, the standards were much higher. Nowadays, anyone and their mother can go to college. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had received a more classical and arts oriented education before going to college. There simply is no redeeming value in an American public school education. My happiest year of High School was my freshman year at a private institution.

The same thing has been happening in the UK. They're dumbing down school in order to make the statistics look better. Students are struggling to make the grade due to disciplinary problems in classes, a deterioration in the quality of teachers (for example, many males are leaving the profession due to concerns about being persecuted by liberal / politically correct rules which could see them charged with all kinds of "offenses") and an increase in the numbers of students who just aren't academic material.

There are people who argue that the "dumbing down" process in the US has been implemented deliberately to suit the requirements of liberal social engineers with agendas. You may or may not have heard about a book on this topic called "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America".

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

[Vargtand]

two children have written a sentence, one has put "had" the other has written "had had" had had was the choice that the teacher wanted.
Would had had be used as for instance has had or some such? As it makes no sense to me if it is not :S

[Skandi]

Yes that would be a similar thing, Had had is just used in past tense for owning or having something.

[Vargtand]

Alright great then, though it is a wacky use of the word had :P

[Osweo]

Does that come from a specific place/class in England?

I was only talking about the spelling in Thrym's little joke sentence, but this aspirated w thing is interesting, yes.

I can't really comment except to say that it's unheard of in my milieu. As is the word 'milieu'! :P I went thru a phase of pronouncing the H in my teens, just for fun, and my Dad told me off for sounding like an idiot! :D Manchester is very proletarianised, though, so the class thing might be playing a role as well as the regional.

[Skandi]

Things like that are always funny, like bath and "barth" grass and "grarse" casle and "carstle" But they are just accents, so that doesn't bother me too much :)

[Óttar]

I say eliminate all unpleasant American English dialects, and enforce the Boston Brahmin dialect. It's too bad it's dying out. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvONJXJUO4

A dying breed these. I should find one and develop a pukka (Hindustani paka "ripe" ---> Victorian English slang "refined") Boston Brahmin brogue.

[Osweo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvONJXJUO4
Bluddy hell, the man on the right sounds just like an elderly Englishman I was talking to a while ago! John Disland, a local historian in Heysham, Lancashire...

We were talking about the Angles and Saxons, and I said "Well we're still here!" He asked "And who is we?", "Anglo-Saxons," said I.
"I'm a Norman, myself!" he retorted. :D

Ah, here he is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/ram/2008/08/28/faith_5.ram
From here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/content/articles/2008/09/01/lancashire_faith_map.shtml :thumb001:

A dying breed these. I should find one and develop a pukka (Hindustani paka "ripe" ---> Victorian English slang "refined") Boston Brahmin brogue.
Brogue is used for the Irish sound round here. And wash your mouth out - using those dirty Hindi words! I've purged them from my own vocabulary! ;)

[Óttar]

using those dirty Hindi words! I've purged them from my own vocabulary! ;)

I thought it was appropriate. After all, it is Boston Brahmins we're talking about here. :cool:

[Lenny]

I say eliminate all unpleasant American English dialects, and enforce the Boston Brahmin dialect. It's too bad it's dying out. :(

I too am saddened by that.

One of the deeest-rooted truly American "nationalities" - The protestant northern-european New England Yankee, the heirs of Samuel Adams and Roger Sherman. They are almost a thing of that past now. Certain latter-day CSA-sympathizers like to baselessly shower them with scorn, certain Ellis-Islanders like to disdain them, certain nutty conspiracy theorists like to attribute Protocols-of-the-Learned-Elders-of-Plymouth-Rock garbage to them... but all those people are shouting at windmills. The identifiable New-England Yankees as a group are almost gone.

There are likely more Italians alone (to say nothing of others) than there are "old-stock Yankees" in lower-New-England these days. So it seems.

[SwordoftheVistula]

There are likely more Italians alone (to say nothing of others) than there are "old-stock Yankees" in lower-New-England these days. So it seems.

True, and even northern New England is now largely Irish and French (via Canada)

[Psychonaut]

True, and even northern New England is now largely Irish and French (via Canada)

Remember though, some parts of New England were French settlements first. Maine was first settled by the French in 1604. We've always had a large presence up there along the old border of New France.

[Lenny]

Remember though, some parts of New England were French settlements first. Maine was first settled by the French in 1604. We've always had a large presence up there along the old border of New France.Hmm, I'd never heard about that. But what is meant by "settled"- Are there are people still in Maine descended from them? Or was the settlement transient and abandonded shortly.

I don't think any old-stock American would discount the French contribution to their genepool, in the form of the Huguenots. Even Paul Revere was a Huguenot; how much more New-England-Yankee can you get than him?:thumb001:

[Psychonaut]

Hmm, I'd never heard about that. But what is meant by "settled"- Are there are people still in Maine descended from them? Or was the settlement transient and abandonded shortly.

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Maine) says:


The first European settlement in Maine was made in 1604 by a French party that included Samuel de Champlain. The French named the area Acadia. Later English colonization pushed Acadia north into what are today the Canadian Maritimes, but the French continued to maintain strong relations with the area's Native American tribes through the medium of Catholic missionaries.

It's my understanding that the Acadians never left the area. They were there in smallish numbers during the 1600s, and then after the Grand Dérangement in 1755 our numbers in New England increased dramatically.

[Lenny]

Well as long as we're playing the "first European settlement in New England" game, I'll raise the ante to the 11th century Scandinavians :D (the evidence all points to them reaching at least Cape Cod area...the Vinland name, the coin finds)

Sure, they did not survive too long- that is to say their genepool did not continue onward in North America. But if one believes the mysterious stories about a tribe of light-skinned Indians encountered by the English in the early 1600s, some Scandinavian genes seemingly did survive. Until that Indian tribe died out anyway.

[Absinthe]

Copying this discussion as it was pasted from someone's MSN on another forum.

Arguably, both conversators are (white) Americans. Enjoy.... :D


9:09pmJessa
hii

9:10pmAngel
hi hun

9:10pmJessa
sorry

i cant send first..

i heard u are a scammer

9:10pmAngel
but i hav more vms hun

trust me

if u wan we can trade little by little



9:11pmJessa
umm

do u hav prove dat ur're trustworthy?

9:11pmAngel
yes

im in the safe traders list

9:11pmJessa
o.o i see

isee

can u gimme the link of the page that shows u are in the list?

9:12pmAngel
umm

i forgot it

9:12pmJessa
:O

ok. gimme a min

i'll search thru

9:12pmAngel
hurry up pls

i got to go

its really urgent

hun

9:12pmJessa
ok

ok

but i searched under A n ur names' not there :'\

9:13pmAngel
its is.

9:13pmJessa
it isnt...

9:13pmAngel
IT IS !! ITS OVER THERE

9:13pmJessa
calm down.. where? quote the sentence

9:13pmAngel
no thank u

do u wanna trade or what?

9:13pmJessa
yes i wanna trade..

but i nid to check

u there?

9:14pmAngel
wat?1

what ?!!

9:14pmJessa
clam dwn, i was just asking

can we trade little by little?

9:14pmAngel
sure hun.

how about

u send 1 jar,

i send the stuff

9:14pmJessa
no thx.. i dun wanna send first

9:15pmAngel
-.- u are weirid

9:15pmJessa
im not weird

im just being safe

9:15pmAngel
ok stop the chit chatiin its been 5 min

freak

9:15pmJessa
:O

9:16pmAngel
how about

u send

1 jar

den i send the 8x499

trust me

9:16pmJessa
hmm

ok.

i trust u now

pls dun scam mi..

9:16pmAngel
dun worry i wun

ok

im in ps nw

9:16pmJessa
hold on

im loading it

kays loaded

lemme find u

keke.. found u

alright

1 jar sent



9:17pmAngel
ok

9:17pmJessa
??

my items?

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

hello u thr? (send as a message)

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

OMG.. (send as a message)

y did u go offline?

9:18pmAngel is online.
9:18pmJessa
y did u go offline?

9:18pmAngel
hello?

9:18pmJessa
WHY DID U GO OFFLINE?

9:19pmAngel
umm hun.

u sent?

9:19pmJessa
yea i sent



9:20pmAngel
umm, can u send 1 more lips den i send u the amount

9:20pmJessa
no.

either u giv me 8x4999 or gimme bac my jar.

9:20pmAngel
hw dare u say no to me

9:20pmJessa
omg... r u trying to scam me?
9:21pmAngel
no hun. im being safe like you.

9:21pmJessa
den send the 8x4999

9:21pmAngel
no,, send 1 lip

9:21pmJessa
pls dun do dis to mi.

9:22pmAngel
send 1 lip or 1 jar or 1 of the mb stuff.

9:22pmJessa
fine..

im losing patients wif u

9:23pmJessa
sent.

9:23pmAngel
ok.

w8. r u in my pets hse?

9:23pmJessa
yep

9:24pmAngel
promise me after i sent u gifts u dun go open. cus theres a suprise in 1 of them n i wanna enjoy it wif u

9:24pmJessa
umm.. ok..

COOL. all the 4999s received

9:24pmAngel
DONT OPEN IT!

9:24pmJessa
kk.

i wunt

ok

i rely trust u now

im sending the balance

9:24pmAngel
ok

9:25pmJessa
2 lips sent

1 jar sent

1 jar sent

all the rest sent

pls send the stuff over

9:25pmAngel
ok. ALL SENT

9:25pmJessa
serious?

so quick?

ah,.. received

alrite

im gunna open dem nw

9:26pmAngel
NO DONT !

9:26pmJessa
yy?

9:26pmAngel
refresh ur ps 3 times den u come bac here n talk to me

i will gift u a special gift

9:26pmJessa
umm no thx

let me open the gifts nw
9:27pmAngel
ok..

9:27pmJessa
Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

AN APPLE?! (send as a message)

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

OMG ! SCAMMER !!!> (send as a message)

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

(send as a message)

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

30apples?! (send as a message)

Angel is no longer online. The following was not sent:

SCAMMER (send as a message)


I wonder if they used a LOLcat translator to write like that.....:D :D :D

:rofl:

Some of the replies to this thread (by different members)


OMG. I did not scammed you. you liar.. u edited those convos.. its looks soooo edited... lame larxx


i dun noe what you're saying.... i did not scam you. YOU scammed me. I am not a liar.. I did not edit those convos..



since you sae she lie and edit the convos .
Why dun you copy your conver with her now and clarify with her ?


:D :D :D

[Fiona]

Having been inspired by the writing style of a recently banned member, I would like to ask this question purely out of academic interest:

We've all seen it so often, what is the cause for poor english skills in a portion of Americans?

I don't mean the occassional typos, neither Aemma's pretence-ebonics :p I mean a recurring writing pattern of

-misspelling

-not capitalizing names as well as the first word of a sentence

-poor formatting, e.g. not using paragraphs, separating sentences with "..." etc.

-punctuation errors, such as using apostrophes instead of quotation marks (guilty as charged :D)

-semantic errors, grammar errors, syntax errors

-using they're instead of their, your instead of you're, etc...

I am not talking about an occassional mistake, I am talking about this being always the case.

And I wonder: is it an educational problem? Do schools fail to teach the language correctly?
Is it a cultural problem? Do people watch too much TV and come across too many instances of poor language skills?

Or.... (opinions).

(P.S. this thread addresses the question of linguisitc illiteracy in Americans only).

Which member was it? I would like to see.

[Cheesypie]

I don't think this is an American phenomenon only ... and to be honest, linguistic illiteracy seems rife here in England ... I'm not joking. :eek:

Duh.

[Fiona]

people make up their own short hand on chats.

[BeerBaron]

I hope you are not using forum posts as examples of poor grammar. If you are, well, it's a forum response/reply, not a bloody thesis. I think I am average in time spent on responses, which is about all of 30 seconds, so if there are errors, I just don't care enough, or feel the need, to fix them

[Absinthe]

Which member was it? I would like to see.
Jeez... I don't remember. It was ages ago :p

[Austin]

It is a misunderstanding of people under 25 by people over 25 seeing as anyone who points out me using the number 25 instead of spelling it out will surely be illustrating.

When you grew up on instant messengers and on email and then grew up through the boom of the online gaming world and social networking plus texting, it is our normal. Id c what the big deal is. C is easier to type than see. 2 is easier to type than two. Idk is superior to I don't know (ughhh that was a chore).


Ironically I have started typing somewhat better after dealing with you grammar Fascists.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Copying this discussion as it was pasted from someone's MSN on another forum.

Arguably, both conversators are (white) Americans. Enjoy.... :D



I wonder if they used a LOLcat translator to write like that.....:D :D :D

:rofl:

Some of the replies to this thread (by different members)







:D :D :D

Some of them actually think it's cool to write/speak like that. :coffee: