Were the amazigh (berber) who invaded iberia native blood to north africa or were they arab?

[Ezio Auditore]

I wonder if the berbers who invaded iberia were heavily arab in ancestry or were they more north african?

[chinshen]

A mixture of both, probably more of Arab origin since it was within a very short period from the Arab conquest of North Africa.

[Alazair]

I wonder if the berbers who invaded iberia were heavily arab in ancestry or were they more north african?

A mixture of both, probably more of Arab origin since it was within a very short period from the Arab conquest of North Africa.


Berber of course, arabs only constituted a small minority. Even most of the generals and officers were berber :


More numerous were the Berbers who joined the Arab command in North Africa and constituted the bulk of the invasion force. Despite the withdrawal of substantial numbers during the drought and famine of the 750's, fresh Berber migration from North Africa was a constant feature of Andalusi history, increasing in tempo in the tenth century. Hispano- Romans who converted to Islam, numbering six or seven millions, comprised the majority of the population and also occupied the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Yet, through the system of clientage, substantial upward mobility was possible, especially among the Neo-Muslim elite.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Islamic-and-Christian-Spain-in-the-Early-Middle-Glick/237e0fcc636edb11cf8347c05b8a87e5b4f5177a?p2df



The initial eighth century muslim invasion force led by Tariq ibn Ziyad, the governor of Tangier, consisted of 7000-12000 men. Tariq and the elite core of his army were soldiers known as mawali: warriors who had willingly converted to Islam and then became clients of established Arab tribes. They were formed into regiments under the command of their own officers. The mawali units created from the converts of North Africa, such as those taking part in the Iberian campaign, included several different ethnic groups such as Berbers, coptic egyptians, greeks and Persians. However, the vast majority of the invasion forces were partly converted - or still fully pagan - berber tribal warriors who were poorly equipped in terms of both arms and armour. [...] However, even with the influx of the new warriors, the Berbers, still remained the largest ethnic group of all the conquerors and would continue to be throughout the history of al-Andalus.

Erich B. Anderson, Rise of the Berber mercenaries: Desert nomads come to Europe (https://www.jstor.org/stable/48578475?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A37e68acc6b2032ac928b26b3a6691 8ec&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)



Although no quantitative data survives that would make it possible to know what percentage of the troops involved in the conquest of Spain in the period 711-720 was of Berber origin, it is notable that the crucial expedition of 711 was led by Tariq ibn Ziyad, a Berber freedman and client of Musa ibn Nusayr, the governor of Ifriqiya. That his father's name, Ziyad, was an Arab one would suggest that Tariq was at least a second generation Muslim, and that his family had been taken into clientage at a relatively early stage of the Arab conquest of North Africa. According to some sources he was a member of the Nafza tribe, from the region of Tripoli.14 This area had been conquered by the Arabs in 647. He himself led what appears to be a predominantly or even exclusively Berber army, but in the light of what is known of Tariq's own ancestry and origins, it should not necessarily be assumed that these were drawn from the recently conquered tribes of the central regions of North Africa. They are more likely to have been drawn, like Tariq himself, from tribes who had been conquered and Islamicised anything up to half a century or more earlier. Some of those conquered in the west in the first decade of the eighth century might, however, have then been used in the campaigns in Spain from 711 onwards

Roger Collins, Early medieval Spain, pp. 150




Again Mawalis played a major role in the conquest; all four of the main commanders - Tarif Ibn Malluk, Tariq Ibn Ziyad, Mughith the Freedman and Musa Ibn Nusayr - were probably mawalis, as were many of their elite cavalry units. One tradition mentions seven hundred Africans in Musa Ibn Nusayr's army, but the bulk of invading armies were of barely converted Berber tribesmen plus the existing Umayyad garrisons from North Africa. Pagan Berbers and Jewish warriors also took part, though whether the latter included jews from the Iberian peninsula is unknown. Ex-Visigothic troops seemingly supported the conquerors in raids north of the Pyrenees against their ancient rivals the Franks

David Nicolle, The Islamic West 7th-15th centuries AD, pp. 7




It's also them who kept al andalus safe and many areas weren't actually ruled by umayyads but by local berber governors :


Berbers played an important role in defending the marches against Christian incursions, with the result that the amirs often granted iqta' land (which gave the holder usufruct from land in exchange for military service) to Berber families. In the tenth century, 'Abd al-Rahman III made heavy use of Berber military allies. He also appointed Berbers to important administrative positions; he made Muhammad ibn 'abd allah ibn 'abi Isa, a descendent of Yahya ibn Yahya, chief qadi of Cordoba and used him as an ambassador to the marches, where the notables upon whom the caliph depended for military support were often Berber. [...] it becomes clear that during the Umayyad period a number of areas in al-Andalus were evolving as Berber societies whose formation was not under the political control of Umayyad Cordoba.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3998/mpub.9297351.9?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=berbers&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Dberb ers%26so%3Drel&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3A5387f8b3ec7473f2e0b92bf28b922856&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents



Aside from the mercenary troops of the emir in Cordoba and the soldiers recruited from the descendants of the Syrian junds, most of the muslim warriors of al-Andalus were still the numerous Berbers, who had predominately settled in the north of the peninsula after the invasion. Like the Syrian arab ones, the Berber colonists were also divided into junds to supply the emirate with soldiers. These troops were vital to the defense of the border regions adjacent to hostile Christian states, as many of the main frontier fortresses were garrisoned with them. However, clashes with the government in Cordoba occured at times because Berbers commonly felt more loyalt towards their own tribal chiefs when there were conflicts of interest. Lack of allegiance could also be a major issue with the last major group in the army of al-Andalus : the native Iberians who made up the vast majority of the population on the peninsula and had converted to Islam.

Erich B. Anderson, Rise of the Berber mercenaries: Desert nomads come to Europe (https://www.jstor.org/stable/48578475?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A37e68acc6b2032ac928b26b3a6691 8ec&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

[Ezio Auditore]

Berber of course, arabs only constituted a small minority. Even most of the generals and officers were berber :



https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Islamic-and-Christian-Spain-in-the-Early-Middle-Glick/237e0fcc636edb11cf8347c05b8a87e5b4f5177a?p2df




Erich B. Anderson, Rise of the Berber mercenaries: Desert nomads come to Europe (https://www.jstor.org/stable/48578475?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A37e68acc6b2032ac928b26b3a6691 8ec&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)




Roger Collins, Early medieval Spain, pp. 150




David Nicolle, The Islamic West 7th-15th centuries AD, pp. 7




It's also them who kept al andalus safe and many areas weren't actually ruled by umayyads but by local berber governors :



https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3998/mpub.9297351.9?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=berbers&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Dberb ers%26so%3Drel&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3A5387f8b3ec7473f2e0b92bf28b922856&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents




Erich B. Anderson, Rise of the Berber mercenaries: Desert nomads come to Europe (https://www.jstor.org/stable/48578475?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3A37e68acc6b2032ac928b26b3a6691 8ec&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

awesome. I prefer the idea of the moors being of native amazigh heritage and not super arabized... although clearly some arab influence is found in southern iberia that's undisputable. The region names Algarve and Andalusia are definitely arabic. And I've visited many times to both areas and they have loads of Arabic influence... festivals also show the cultural dances, medieval music, etc. but also clearly amazigh. If you don't mind could you explain the differences, how do you know if a certain influence is arabized or amazigh?

[Ishy]

Mostly Berber soldiers however the elite were Arabs, mainly from Yemen and Syria. The Almoravids for example, were Sanhaja Berbers from the South in modern day Western Sahara and Mauritania. The Almohads were Masmuda Berbers from the Atlas Mountains in Southern Morocco. Both dynasties ruled the Iberian Peninsula and largely contributed to Islamic rule in Spain.

[Ezio Auditore]

Mostly Berber soldiers however the elite were Arabs, mainly from Yemen and Syria. The Almoravids for example, were Sanhaja Berbers from the South in modern day Western Sahara and Mauritania. The Almohads were Masmuda Berbers from the Atlas Mountains in Southern Morocco. Both dynasties ruled the Iberian Peninsula and largely contributed to Islamic rule in Spain.

ohhhh interesting so southern berbers? I don't want to get into too much pseudoscience, but were these groups different from the berbers of the north near the rif? Also, this would also probably mean more likely for African ssa berbers to be part of these invasions? I know Portuguese and Spanish would depict them as being ssa African in many paintings and such so I wonder if this is accurate?

Thanks :)

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I wonder if the berbers who invaded iberia were heavily arab in ancestry or were they more north african?

For someone who pretends to have an interest in North Africans, you're pretty ignorant of the subject. The vast majority were ethnic Berbers. In fact, there was a great deal of conflict between Arabs, a minority, and Berbers, the majority, within a generation of conquering most of Iberia. They literally were at each other's throats.

Early on marriage between an Arab and Berber wasn't seen as a positive. Arabs were very tribal. It took generations for that barrier to gradually fall away. This is all well known by just buying any random book that touches on the subject.

[Ezio Auditore]

For someone who pretends to have an interest in North Africans, you're pretty ignorant of the subject. The vast majority were ethnic Berbers. In fact, there was a great deal of conflict between Arabs, a minority, and Berbers, the majority, within a generation of conquering most of Iberia. They literally were at each other's throats.

Early on marriage between an Arab and Berber wasn't seen as a positive. Arabs were very tribal. It took generations for that barrier to gradually fall away. This is all well known by just buying any random book that touches on the subject.

I thought you were going to sleep? Anyway, I am trying to learn more about some of our roots brother... Of course I don't know much they barely taught us this part of history bc of it's hated past! I saw a lot of paintings and portraits of SSA moors coming in mixed with other berbers too. Thanks for the lesson!

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I thought you were going to sleep?

Why would I go to sleep? It's 7:45 PM. I was sending your buddy to bed. You can't understand simple English.


Anyway, I am trying to learn more about some of our roots brother... Of course I don't know much they barely taught us this part of history bc of it's hated past!

That wouldn't be hard if you went to a university that allowed you access to particular books and access to published papers through their library. I'm not shocked that you're not a university, to be honest.


I saw a lot of paintings and portraits of SSA moors coming in mixed with other berbers too. Thanks for the lesson!

I'm sure you did. Your trolling is evolving, I see. You should post John Henrik Clarke videos if you're going full retard.

[Ezio Auditore]

Why would I go to sleep? It's 7:45 PM. I was sending your buddy to bed. You can't understand simple English.



That wouldn't be hard if you went to a university that allowed you access to particular books and access to published papers through their library. I'm not shocked that you're not a university, to be honest.

I am doing this right now brotha! I am searching up all about the moorish conquests and learning. Tell me information about the moors because you're so intelligent, please... how did they eventually get to Galicia, (where you are from) and intermingle which is why you are part amazigh?

Thank you,

Ezio

[Tongio]

The berbers were partialy if not mostly native to Iberia, their MT DNA is a testimony of that , they migrated to North África from europe because of the Ice age and mixed with people that had migrated tô magreb from the east/ ancient midle east y DNA E.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I am doing this right now brotha! I am searching up all about the moorish conquests and learning.

You're not searching. You're asking people on a forum, lolz. You don't have access to a university because you're retarded. You act stupid here because you are stupid.


Tell me information about the moors because you're so intelligent, please...

I didn't spend over $300 on books on Moorish history to educate you. I'm not your professor. I'm more like your disappointed father than I am your professor.


how did they eventually get to Galicia, (where you are from) and intermingle which is why you are part amazigh?

Thank you,

Ezio

Oh noes!!!! I iz mad! You don't learn, do you?

Lolz... google it: you'll learn they had a couple of small communities in southern Galicia and then left to fight the Arabs in the south around the 740s. A conflict had erupted between both groups.

Some or much of the NA ancestry may actually be older than the Moorish invasion and explains why there are areas where Moors had control for a longer time (centuries) but have less NA (to almost none) than areas that didn't have a Moorish presence. That's one theory. We'll find out eventually. There are a number of theories I'm considering. One which involves sending people captured in raids north.

I find it amusing that someone who has been going on and on about how Iberians should embrace their NA heritage and claims he's Iberian doesn't know shit about Berbers except the word Amazigh. You're certainly not a low IQ troll.

[Ezio Auditore]

The berbers were partialy if not mostly native to Iberia, their MT DNA is a testimony of that , they migrated to North África from europe because of the Ice age and mixed with people that had migrated tô magreb from the east/ ancient midle east y DNA E.
Then why is the avg Portuguese 10-13% amazigh, 1-2% SSA, and western Spanish are very much similar and as you go Eastward these %'s go down a bit? Genetics amigo, they don't lie and what you bring up is true but also ignoring that actual North African berbers from North Africa invaded Iberia we see it in the genetics there is no way around this.

[Tongio]

Then why is Portuguese 10-13% amazigh, 1-2% SSA, and western Spanish are very much similar and as you go Eastward these %'s go down a bit? Genetics amigo, they don't lie and what you bring up is true but also ignoring that actual North African berbers from North Africa invaded Iberia we see it in the genetics there is no way around this.

I would say the range of pctgs for a portuguese is more like 0 - 14 % NA, most getting around 6%
and 0 - 3% SSA most getting < 1%
I am not disagreeing the berbers along with a minor strain of arabs from all over midle east migrated tô iberia and surely left their genetic legacy you only exagerate the dimension of it. "darker " traits among portuguese Very likely do not even come from these minor pctgs, but from neolithic farmers and Whg (darker skin).

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Then why is the avg Portuguese 10-13% amazigh, 1-2% SSA, and western Spanish are very much similar and as you go Eastward these %'s go down a bit? Genetics amigo, they don't lie and what you bring up is true but also ignoring that actual North African berbers from North Africa invaded Iberia we see it in the genetics there is no way around this.

Although I don't agree with what that poster says you're so stupid you don't realize what he's saying doesn't contradict what you're saying. It would mean, if he was correct, the Moorish migration was much larger to be able to hit that supposed 13%. Do I need to explain especially how?

You are ridiculously stupid. You keep talking about genetics. I don't think you understand any of these population genetics papers, tbh. Anyone who consistently makes such idiotic errors and can't even understand a simple argument presented by someone certainly can't understand anything that is more complex.

[Gallop]

These types of trolls are already boring. It's hard to think that someone could spend so much of their free time on an agenda on a particular topic just obsessively talking about the Al Andalus period. It's like some kind of cheap publicity that is obsessively and systematically carried out.

Strange and fruitless.

He does not even publish his own results and he is interested in the results of the Spanish people, or rather only in specific results?

He is not Spanish but he wants to create an opinion about Spaniards and he does it for free, for what and why, how strange hehe

[Ezio Auditore]

I would say the rangeof pctgs for a portuguese is more like 0 - 14 % NA, most getting around 6%
and 0 - 3% SSA most getting < 1%
I am not disagreeing the berbers along with a minor strain of arabs from all over midle east migrated tô iberia and surely left their genetic legacy you only exagerar the dimension of it. "darker " traits among portuguese probably does not even come from these minor pctgs but from neolithic farmers.

I apologize not 13% but avg 11%... so not 5% that is an outlier for sure.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

We find regionally varying fractions of north-west African ancestry (0–11%) in modern-day Iberians, related to an admixture event involving European-like and north-west African-like source populations. We date this event to 860–1120 CE, implying greater genetic impacts in the early half of Muslim rule in Iberia. Together, our results indicate clear genetic impacts of population movements associated with both the Muslim conquest and the subsequent Reconquista.

North African is highest in Portugal and Galicia (~11%), followed by Extremadura and Andalusia (~8%), and then declines as you move northeast toward the Basque Country, Balearic islands, Catalunya, etc.


Another interesting fact;
--There is more North African DNA in Iberia than there is Asiatic DNA in Hungarians (who speak a non-Indo European language), Turkic DNA in many Turks (who speak a Turkic language), and Arabian Peninsular DNA in many Arabs.

[Ezio Auditore]

About North African DNA in Italy, this study quantifies North African ancestry in Italy as being between 4-5% in Sicily only:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32513#MOESM1

A similar, but even more extreme south-north gradient was observed also for the blue component highly representative of Northern African groups that was additionally detected in Middle East and, to a significant lower extent, in Southern Italy (4.6%, mainly in Sicily).

Another study has a similar estimate, in the Supplementary Info: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015233#Sec24:

The North-African component is detectable in the Italian sample, especially in Sicily, Calabria, and Sardinia and it is distinguishable from random noise: 5.42% (2.99% - 7.85%) in South Italy and 4.66% (2.22% - 7.11%) in Sardinia.

So it's roughly on par with parts of Iberia, but not as high as in westernmost Spain and Portugal.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I didn't even get a thumbs up from this retard for the free education I gave him.

Disappointed.

[NSXD60]

Is y'all is or is y'all ain't Sand Niggas?
The way some's actin' stately makes me doubt.
They still claimin' that they is Bigwiggas
With White flames in they charts long gone out.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

About North African DNA in Italy, this study quantifies North African ancestry in Italy as being between 4-5% in Sicily only:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32513#MOESM1

A similar, but even more extreme south-north gradient was observed also for the blue component highly representative of Northern African groups that was additionally detected in Middle East and, to a significant lower extent, in Southern Italy (4.6%, mainly in Sicily).

Another study has a similar estimate, in the Supplementary Info: https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015233#Sec24:

The North-African component is detectable in the Italian sample, especially in Sicily, Calabria, and Sardinia and it is distinguishable from random noise: 5.42% (2.99% - 7.85%) in South Italy and 4.66% (2.22% - 7.11%) in Sardinia.

So it's roughly on par with parts of Iberia, but not as high as in westernmost Spain and Portugal.

Why are you talking about Italy in a thread about the Moorish invasion of Iberia? It's almost like you never had an interest in learning about Moorish history in Spain.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

For those who have an actual interest:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMv9Gyc08P8

[Friends of Oliver Society]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeArDH86dRU

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I decided to take this thread over for serious minded people.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFbHVzIkmiY

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Dude, you are Luso. I never had any interaction with you before but I've been shown proof.


Hehe, idk I think numerous is a bit of an exaggeration meu amigo :), and that isn't to say MENA's and South Asians can't be quite attractive, I've seen many attractive ones myself! But I'm sure your preferences are subject to the north of the Pyrenees, or even more north than that!!! so I will not talk more on this.

The same writing style. The same use of the word amigo.

You are pretty fucking stupid for not changing your writing style and using words unique to you.

Well, I'm shocked. Trolling your own people. I can't say I've never seen this before. There was a mulatto looking half-Italian half-English guy and another weird Italian-American guy who kept emphasizing being Middle Eastern looking.

This is really sad. btw, I know why you didn't reveal your pic. I take it where you live people view you as non-White because of your look and so it has fucked with your head especially with you being predisposed toward mental illness.

This is so sad. Trolling your own people because of your insecurities.

[Leto]

I decided to take this thread over for serious minded people.

Are you not interested in taking a DNA test? It's not like I'm personally dying to see your results since I'm not of a similar background as you but others might want to see them.

[Leto]

The same writing style. The same use of the word amigo.

You are pretty fucking stupid for not changing your writing style and using words unique to you.

It's incredible how people do not even try to hide their identity when they return as sock puppets. I mean it's not even that difficult to avoid being recognized almost immediately...

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Are you not interested in taking a DNA test? It's not like I'm personally dying to see your results since I'm not of a similar background as you but others might want to see them.

I've taken 23andme. I've done Dienekes test. I've done eurogenes. So have my parents.

There is nothing out of the ordinary other than my mother (with Eurogenes) sticks out as having much more North African and much more Northern European than the average Spaniard.

[Leto]

I've taken 23andme. I've done Dienekes test. I've done eurogenes. So have my parents.

There is nothing out of the ordinary other than my mother (with Eurogenes) sticks out as having both much more North African and more Northern European than the average Spaniard.
Can we have your Eurogenes for the members' spreadsheet? Just share the values only.

[Tongio]

I apologize not 13% but avg 11%... so not 5% that is an outlier for sure.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

We find regionally varying fractions of north-west African ancestry (0–11%) in modern-day Iberians, related to an admixture event involving European-like and north-west African-like source populations. We date this event to 860–1120 CE, implying greater genetic impacts in the early half of Muslim rule in Iberia. Together, our results indicate clear genetic impacts of population movements associated with both the Muslim conquest and the subsequent Reconquista.

North African is highest in Portugal and Galicia (~11%), followed by Extremadura and Andalusia (~8%), and then declines as you move northeast toward the Basque Country, Balearic islands, Catalunya, etc.


Another interesting fact;
--There is more North African DNA in Iberia than there is Asiatic DNA in Hungarians (who speak a non-Indo European language), Turkic DNA in many Turks (who speak a Turkic language), and Arabian Peninsular DNA in many Arabs.

This study didnt look at Portugal at all,it is focused in spain.It just assumes portuguese and galician to be a single bloc and gives the portuguese the same value they found among likely some slightly more NA shifted group of galicians.

[Ezio Auditore]

Dude, you are Luso. I never had any interaction with you before but I've been shown proof.



The same writing style. The same use of the word amigo.

You are pretty fucking stupid for not changing your writing style and using words unique to you.

Well, I'm shocked. Trolling your own people. I can't say I've never seen this before. There was a mulatto looking half-Italian half-English guy and another weird Italian-American guy who kept emphasizing being Middle Eastern looking.

This is really sad. btw, I know why you didn't reveal your pic. I take it where you live people view you as non-White because of your look and so it has fucked with your head especially with you being predisposed toward mental illness.

This is so sad. Trolling your own people because of your insecurities.

Wow this does look like his writing. Funny.

But...

https://youtu.be/P4wkiO-GNnM

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Can we have your Eurogenes for the members' spreadsheet? Just share the values only.

I did the whole Eurogenes thing when he first started. I even chipped in $100 with no strings attached to help him buy a more powerful computer so he could do the work (I never got a thank you). That was like 5 computers ago. I don't even remember what ID I had. I don't use the same email. I was very annoyed I didn't even get a thank you from him and so I lost interest in eurogenes and, also, there isn't anything, from what I've seen in all these places, other than what I mentioned about my mother, that stuck out as different and so I lost interest for the subject.

Now I'm kind of pissed again that I didn't get a thank you. What a fucking asshole.

[Ezio Auditore]

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftum blr_m8en0xIgz91ro2d43.gif&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwifflegif.com%2Ftags%2F304 06-retard-gifs%3Fpage%3D3&tbnid=4f3gtlZPIOF25M&vet=12ahUKEwjBpt3QoaH1AhWSgnIEHSBbB-gQMygDegUIARDAAQ..i&docid=KfIcfUxPZLwcfM&w=245&h=209&itg=1&q=wow%20what%20a%20retard%20gif&hl=en-us&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwjBpt3QoaH1AhWSgnIEHSBbB-gQMygDegUIARDAAQ#imgrc=IEE1qqmXjV4wIM&imgdii=HI4Crn1fxo-k8M

[Friends of Oliver Society]

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftum blr_m8en0xIgz91ro2d43.gif&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwifflegif.com%2Ftags%2F304 06-retard-gifs%3Fpage%3D3&tbnid=4f3gtlZPIOF25M&vet=12ahUKEwjBpt3QoaH1AhWSgnIEHSBbB-gQMygDegUIARDAAQ..i&docid=KfIcfUxPZLwcfM&w=245&h=209&itg=1&q=wow%20what%20a%20retard%20gif&hl=en-us&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwjBpt3QoaH1AhWSgnIEHSBbB-gQMygDegUIARDAAQ#imgrc=IEE1qqmXjV4wIM&imgdii=HI4Crn1fxo-k8M

Doesn't show, moron. I mean Luso... I mean moron...

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Wow this does look like his writing. Funny.

But...
]

Sad, Luso. Just sad. You're in your early 20s. Why are you even at this forum? You should be living life. Don't waste your youth here. Sad on so many levels.

You're a good example of how insecurities can ruin a man.

[Ezio Auditore]

Doesn't show, moron. I mean Luso... I mean moron...

? It shows what you don't have

[Friends of Oliver Society]

? It shows what you don't have
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tQpRBbq.jpg[

Yeah, I don't have an STD. That penis has unusual growths.

[Leto]

I did the whole Eurogenes thing when he first started. I even chipped in $100 with no strings attached to help him buy a more powerful computer so he could do the work (I never got a thank you). That was like 5 computers ago. I don't even remember what ID I had. I don't use the same email. I was very annoyed I didn't even get a thank you from him and so I lost interest in eurogenes and, also, there isn't anything, from what I've seen in all these places, other than what I mentioned about my mother, that stuck out as different and so I lost interest for the subject.

Now I'm kind of pissed again that I didn't get a thank you. What a fucking asshole.
Um, I just mean GEDmatch. You don't need to pay any money for that.

[Alazair]

Sad, Luso. Just sad. You're in your early 20s. Why are you even at this forum? You should be living life. Don't waste your youth here. Sad on so many levels.

You're a good example of how insecurities can ruin a man.

calm yourself why do you attack him like that ? He simply asked a question why do you interpret this as "trolling" ?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

calm yourself why do you attack him like that ? He simply asked a question why do you interpret this as "trolling" ?

Maybe because he runs around this forum obsessively trolling Iberians?

I'm simply amazed by how stupid so many posters are at this forum. A person who isn't retarded would think 'maybe there is some history between Grimes and Enzo?' instead of thinking that my reaction was because of this specific thread.

Luso isn't interested in Berber history or the Moorish invasion of Iberia. He's just here to troll. The fact he runs around reminding Iberians on this forum they should be proud of their Amazigh ancestry and yet here he is not knowing anything about Berbers is a reminder it's all about the trolling.

He's a mentally ill Portuguese kid that is upset that he looks out of place among his own people.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Um, I just mean GEDmatch. You don't need to pay any money for that.

I'm not particularly interested in doing so, tbh. Maybe I'll change my mind.

[Alazair]

Maybe because he runs around this forum obsessively trolling Iberians?

I'm simply amazed by how stupid so many posters are at this forum. A person who isn't retarded would think 'maybe there is some history between Grimes and Enzo?' instead of thinking that my reaction was because of this specific thread.

Luso isn't interested in Berber history or the Moorish invasion of Iberia. He's just here to troll. The fact he runs around reminding Iberians on this forum they should be proud of their Amazigh ancestry and yet here he is not knowing anything about Berbers is a reminder it's all about the trolling.

He's a mentally ill Portuguese kid that is upset that he looks out of place among his own people.

you maybe get this impression because most iberian members do not acknowledge their moorish ancestry unlike him and his interest seems genuine I already talked with him privately.

and since when does he look out of place ? Not even other portuguese members agree with you on this

[Friends of Oliver Society]

you maybe get this impression because most iberian members do not acknowledge their moorish ancestry unlike him and his interest seems genuine I already talked with him privately.

No Iberian denies North African admixture. What they deny is that they're basically North Africans living in Europe, which is what he and other trolls do. I've never seen an Iberian poster deny NA admixture. Even the dumbest posters on this forum have some understanding of population genetics results.

It seems 'genuine' to you because you don't know any better. He has a history at this forum. If he had actual interest he'd use something called 'google' or actually buy a book, or just go to the library and request a book. This is not a high brow forum and that's obvious to everyone.

I've seen you randomly troll Iberians as well, btw. You're not exactly an unbias 3rd party. I'll do some trolling in return except this is actually true: I have a number of family members who fought in Spain's colonial wars in North Africa and killed a bunch of your people. We still have the medals.


and since when does he look out of place ? Not even other portuguese members agree with you on this

You've been a poster here for a month. What do you know about him other than what he tells you? I've been told differently but you've been here a month and so you know best...

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Um, I just mean GEDmatch. You don't need to pay any money for that.

My results on K13

Population
North_Atlantic 40.28 Pct
Baltic 12.43 Pct
West_Med 22.59 Pct
West_Asian 2.28 Pct
East_Med 14.64 Pct
Red_Sea 2.57 Pct
South_Asian 0.57 Pct
East_Asian 1 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.29 Pct
Oceanian 0.83 Pct
Northeast_African 0.7 Pct
Sub-Saharan 1.82 Pct

Apparently, I already had an account there.

[Leto]

My results on K13

Population
North_Atlantic 40.28 Pct
Baltic 12.43 Pct
West_Med 22.59 Pct
West_Asian 2.28 Pct
East_Med 14.64 Pct
Red_Sea 2.57 Pct
South_Asian 0.57 Pct
East_Asian 1 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.29 Pct
Oceanian 0.83 Pct
Northeast_African 0.7 Pct
Sub-Saharan 1.82 Pct

Apparently, I already had an account there.
Wow, thank you so much, Colonel! :thumb001:
You do score quite a bit of Northern blood. 40% North Atlantic and 12% Baltic. However, your West Med is a little bit on the lower side for Iberia (I'm not an expert here, just assuming).

Are you R1b, by the way?

[Leto]

Distance to: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
3.94234702 Portuguese
4.14277685 Spanish_Catalonia
4.71692697 Spanish_Castile-León
5.00566679 Spanish_Murcia
5.52906864 Spanish_Galicia
5.81412934 Spanish_Valencia
6.05302404 Spanish_Extremadura
6.35157461 French_South
6.82773755 Swiss_Italian
7.15422952 Italian_Aosta_Valley
7.38155810 Spanish_Castilla-La_Mancha
7.62733243 French_Provence
8.21939779 Spanish_Andalusia
8.37360735 Spanish_Cantabria
8.78568722 French_Central
9.52424275 Italian_Piedmont
9.67882741 Spanish_Aragon
9.75203568 Italian_Trentino
10.02685893 French_Canadian
10.90788705 Italian_Veneto

Target: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
Distance: 1.3213% / 1.32127461 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.4 Spanish_Murcia
20.7 German_North_Hesse
13.2 Swiss_Italian
1.0 Yoruban
0.7 Melanesian_Papuan

Target: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
Distance: 1.9165% / 1.91646952 | ADC: 0.5x RC
64.7 Spanish_Murcia
20.7 German_North_Hesse
14.6 Swiss_Italian

[Alazair]

No Iberian denies North African admixture. What they deny is that they're basically North Africans living in Europe, which is what he and other trolls do. I've never seen an Iberian poster deny NA admixture. Even the dumbest posters on this forum have some understanding of population genetics results

you sure ? What's this then :


This is my last reply in this thread since it is obvious that you as moor have an agenda to try to portrait us Spaniards as something related to you. By the way, the picture that represents a "moor" in your profile in reality it is just a dark Spaniard that changed religion to islam. He looks like a dark a Spaniard, not a pure bereber.

1º. Can you get the idea that the scientific paper that you use is OLD and I can also show you dozens of other papers where it states that the % of "north-african" in Spain is equivalent to that of Italy, Balkans or other parts of Europe? Can you get the idea that "north-african" does not necesarily means "bereber" or anything related to muslims or it is not even "north-african" per se but just common ancient caucasoid blood?? Who gave the label to those genes as "north-african"?? Maybe the ones that labeled those genes as north-african labeled them 10 years ago (prehistoric in genetics) or maybe he is just mistaking common ancestry with descendants of. For example, in 23andme 2-3 years ago I had like 0.3 "North-African". Now I have 0.00%. They probably have realised that the old "north-african" label was stupid and that the "north-african" label only means: 100% caucasoid blood, aka white.

2º Do you realize that if the person that did that scientific paper with those maps extended the paper to France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland or the Balkans, they will also get "0-1-2% ""North-african""? But, hey, they just used Spain to tell if we had "north-african" when in reality is just pure ancient caucasoid blood (as you may know north-africans are part caucasoid, and that is where the relationship comes). Nothing about anything not white, not caucasoid. The components does not make us less European or less white. A different matter would be if we had 5% uralid, which is obviously a non-European characteristic. So, can you get the idea that the person that did (in prehistoric genetic times) that paper could have done the same paper (with those colourful maps) and in most of Europe it will be colored as "north-african" also. So, how did the north-africans reached most of Europe in ancient times?? That will show you that it is just a matter of labels. It is just common pure caucasoid blood shared by all caucasoid populations, like when many European get Red-Sea or SouthAsian. Pure caucasoid blood. It does not mean that people from South-Asia, Jordania or Morocco emmigrated to Europe and mixed. No. It means common basal ancient blood. Nothing else. I can picture many maps and put nice colours to pursue my idea of a label.

3. Did you know that most north-africans score 10-20% Iberian?? What does this mean according to you?? Does it means that in ancient times millions of Iberians (funny since we had a 2 million population 2000 years ago) went and lived in all of Northafrica??? No. It means that someone in the XXI century labeled some DNA segments as "Iberian" or "North-African" but it does not speak of mixing but a common ancestry (which in all caucasoids have a common base, yes, even people from Germany). The more variability exist in a population the less probability that they maintain an ancient component. That is why in the rest of Europe they get a 0.5-0.9% of north-africa" and that is why in Galicia (a place where there were zero northafrican invasions ever) scores a 4% (because Galicians in Spain are the most endogamic population). Can you imagine how retard would be those ""north-africans" that went to live to the corner of NW Spain instead of living in Cadiz (close to North-Africa)?? How is it possible that people in Cadiz (15 kms away from Northafrica) score less "north-african" than people in Galicia (NW Spain, 1000 kms away from north-africa)?? Were they retarded??

Period.




.

It seems 'genuine' to you because you don't know any better. He has a history at this forum. If he had actual interest he'd use something called 'google' or actually buy a book, or just go to the library and request a book. This is not a high brow forum and that's obvious to everyone.

I actually know him better than you (we don't only interact on TA) and the guy simply asked a simple question no need to be so dramatic. Anyway I helped him and provided enough sources so he can dig up if he wants.


I've seen you randomly troll Iberians as well, btw. You're not exactly an unbias 3rd party. I'll do some trolling in return except this is actually true: I have a number of family members who fought in Spain's colonial wars in North Africa and killed a bunch of your people. We still have the medals.

Of course I'll troll people who constantly disrespect my people but at least unlike these rats my statements are always backed up by solid and reliable sources. As for the War, that's not something to be proud of since spaniards lost against riffian peasants and Franco actually used lots of moroccans to deal with his own people (one of his own general was also moroccan btw) :


The Moroccan Regulares of Franco's army of Africa operated as the shock troops of the Nationalists. They were encouraged by Franco's officers to inflict horrific atrocities on Republican women as they headed toward Madrid. "Not just rape by appalling evisceration of peasant women of Andalucia and Estremadura,"says Beevor, who wrote a book on the war. Wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters of those leftists executed or exiled would be rape as retribution and humiliated by having their heads shaved and forced to drink castor oil which acted as a laxative so they would publicly soil themselves. Sometimes after raping women, they would brand the breasts of the women with the yoke and phalanx of arrows, the Falangist symbol

Our Bodies, their Battlefields : War through the Lives of Women - p. 171



The Moroccan troops had arrived in mainland Spain it sent shock waves through the Republic because their appalling conduct was infamous; it was well-known they had killed off-hand, plundered, raped and tortured and that Franco accepted this behaviour as his means of controlling through terror.

Probing the Enigma of Franco - p. 98


You're proud of this ? Lol there is really nothing to boast about.






You've been a poster here for a month. What do you know about him other than what he tells you? I've been told differently but you've been here a month and so you know best...

I've seen his face and I've seen what portuguese members said about him that's enough.

[Ezio Auditore]

Wow, thank you so much, Colonel! :thumb001:
You do score quite a bit of Northern blood. 40% North Atlantic and 12% Baltic. However, your West Med is a little bit on the lower side for Iberia (I'm not an expert here, just assuming).

Are you R1b, by the way?
It's bc he is Western Iberian (galicia Cline). Pretty sure eastern Spain (north particularly) gets even higher north Atlantic on average. I have very similar values... Actually pretty much 40% North Atlantic and 12% baltic and get either Castille y Leon as my closest region or Portuguese. He has higher distance tho for some reason. Probably bc he has lower north east African levels which is odd for his ancestry, although he has even higher SSA than even me which compensates a bit for that I suppose

[Ezio Auditore]

Wow, thank you so much, Colonel! :thumb001:
You do score quite a bit of Northern blood. 40% North Atlantic and 12% Baltic. However, your West Med is a little bit on the lower side for Iberia (I'm not an expert here, just assuming).

Are you R1b, by the way?
Delete

[Friends of Oliver Society]

you sure ? What's this then :

First off, I want to thank you for letting me know you're a previously banned poster.

I don't know who this person is but he is not the norm. I'm actually confused by his post. Congratulations, you found one. You can add CV as well but he knows better. He's just the type of person to say white when you say black and black when you say white.



I actually know him better than you (we don't only interact on TA) and the guy simply asked a simple question no need to be so dramatic.

I'm sure you do as a fellow banned poster who trolls Iberians.

No one who spends 99% of their time on a forum trolling an ethnic group asks simple questions about that ethnic group. He doesn't care about the question. This has been explained in my previous response. If it was asked in good faith by someone who was actually interested I would help (and do a more detailed job of it than you).


Anyway I helped him and provided enough sources so he can dig up if he wants.

What you did was waste your time.


Of course I'll troll people who constantly disrespect my people but at least unlike these rats my statements are always backed up by solid and reliable sources.

What do you expect? Your people bring crime and leech off the European nations they settle. What I state is factual. If your people behaved themselves there wouldn't be disrespect. Go ahead and ask me for solid and reliable source on your people's criminality in Europe. How can you not understand why your people are disrespected?

When my cousin lived in the Netherlands she had to be escorted every workday to the bus stop by her fiance because your people would just hang around and harass women. Needless to say, he's a big dude and so they didn't try anything. My other cousin works in the Spanish prison system. Your people are over represented among inmates. As a group, your people are a problem for whichever European nation they settle. These personal experiences are supported by data on crime and ethnicity (France, unfortunately, doesn't keep track of ethnicity and crime but we both know who fills up the prisons there. Why would it be any different in France?).


As for the War, that's not something to be proud of since spaniards lost against riffian peasants...

This reminds me of the Egyptian who told me they beat the Israelis in the 1973 war. The Moroccans lost. If they had won, the Spaniards wouldn't have control of Moroccan territory today. Winners don't lose territory.

Moroccans, whether Rif Berbers or your people, were defeated in the following wars:

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)
The Rif War (1920-1926)

There are losses that go back further.

It's nothing to be proud of, really. It's just beating up on a weak neighbor. However, you receive medals for personal bravery. That is to be commended, whether it's against civilized or uncivilized people.


...and Franco actually used lots of moroccans to deal with his own people (one of his own general was also moroccan btw) :

Yes, and why wouldn't he use cannon fodder? A Moroccan dying for the cause that isn't his means Franco keeps a Spanish nationalist alive. Spanish Nationalist lives matter. Moroccan mercenary lives don't. But you go ahead and take pride in Moroccans being ordered by Spaniards to further their own objectives (wipe out the Reds), which includes oppressing other Moroccans. Franco's first command was leading Moroccans to oppress other Moroccans, you know.



Our Bodies, their Battlefields : War through the Lives of Women - p. 171


Probing the Enigma of Franco - p. 98

You're proud of this ? Lol there is really nothing to boast about.

I see your English comprehension is typical of a 3rd Worlder. Was I speaking of the Spanish Civil War when I said my family members fought in Spain's colonial war in North Africa? What do my family members killing savages in North Africa have to do with the Spanish Civil War? Neither my grandpa - who was conscripted into the Franco army as a teenager - or my other grandpa's brother, who was an officer in Franco's army, saw combat or had anything to do with Moroccans except when my grandpa was stationed in Morocco after the war making sure your grandpa behaved. The family members who fought in the Spanish colonial wars in North Africa had already passed.


Your raping family members is something I did bring up to Cristiano Viejo as a slight against Franco but he had no issue because it was done against leftists. I, of course, find it appalling and always bring it up to lovers of Franco. Red or not rape and murder are wrong. It is amusing, however, that you would bring it up as an "Aha! moment! I got him!" Congratulations on letting everyone know that Moroccan troops were rapists and murderers of women and children because Franco gave them the go ahead. It doesn't appear to take much to get Moroccans to rape, murder, and pillage, though. The question is are you proud of Moroccans raping and pillaging? It is something of a norm among your people in Europe but you may be the outlier.



I've seen his face and I've seen what portuguese members said about him that's enough.

As if I'm going to trust you. That would be like trusting one of your people to work as a cashier.

Unfortunately, I don't have such a special relationship with him. He doesn't want me to see what he looks like.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Wow, thank you so much, Colonel! :thumb001:
You do score quite a bit of Northern blood. 40% North Atlantic and 12% Baltic. However, your West Med is a little bit on the lower side for Iberia (I'm not an expert here, just assuming).

Are you R1b, by the way?

Yes.


Distance to: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
3.94234702 Portuguese
4.14277685 Spanish_Catalonia
4.71692697 Spanish_Castile-León
5.00566679 Spanish_Murcia
5.52906864 Spanish_Galicia
5.81412934 Spanish_Valencia
6.05302404 Spanish_Extremadura
6.35157461 French_South
6.82773755 Swiss_Italian
7.15422952 Italian_Aosta_Valley
7.38155810 Spanish_Castilla-La_Mancha
7.62733243 French_Provence
8.21939779 Spanish_Andalusia
8.37360735 Spanish_Cantabria
8.78568722 French_Central
9.52424275 Italian_Piedmont
9.67882741 Spanish_Aragon
9.75203568 Italian_Trentino
10.02685893 French_Canadian
10.90788705 Italian_Veneto

Target: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
Distance: 1.3213% / 1.32127461 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.4 Spanish_Murcia
20.7 German_North_Hesse
13.2 Swiss_Italian
1.0 Yoruban
0.7 Melanesian_Papuan

Target: Colonel_Frank_Grimes(Spanish)
Distance: 1.9165% / 1.91646952 | ADC: 0.5x RC
64.7 Spanish_Murcia
20.7 German_North_Hesse
14.6 Swiss_Italian

Based.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

It's bc he is Western Iberian (galicia Cline). Pretty sure eastern Spain (north particularly) gets even higher north Atlantic on average. I have very similar values... Actually pretty much 40% North Atlantic and 12% baltic and get either Castille y Leon as my closest region or Portuguese. He has higher distance tho for some reason. Probably bc he has lower north east African levels which is odd for his ancestry, although he has even higher SSA than even me which compensates a bit for that I suppose

Don't even speak of me. You're shit on my shoe. Trolls are lowly but people who troll their own are the lowliest of the low. Live with your insecurity. Don't bother the rest of us with it.

It really is shameful.

[Alazair]

First off, I want to thank you for letting me know you're a previously banned poster.

I don't know who this person is but he is not the norm. I'm actually confused by his post. Congratulations, you found one. You can add CV as well but he knows better. He's just the type of person to say white when you say black and black when you say white.

He's totally the "norm", it's been years I interact with iberians only a minority does acknowledge their north african ancestry the rest keep spamming their commercial results thinking they have no NA ancestry lol

The smartest of them have difficulties denying it but try to lower it by only focusing on iberomaurusian ancestry or claim the component is very old or even go as far as claiming ancient north africans were actually white therefore such admixture has nothing to do with the modern ones.







No one who spends 99% of their time on a forum trolling an ethnic group asks simple questions about that ethnic group. He doesn't care about the question. This has been explained in my previous response. If it was asked in good faith by someone who was actually interested I would help (and do a more detailed job of it than you).

nope he simply bothers you because he do not act as insecure as other iberian members if he had asked the same kind of question but about visigoth you wouldn't have reacted like this. And you obviously wouldn't have done a better job than me lol I'm not expecting much objectivity from someone like you.




What you did was waste your time.

That's not only for him but for every viewer interested in the topic and to counter the usual arguments of iberian and arabist members.




What do you expect? Your people bring crime and leech off the European nations they settle. What I state is factual. If your people behaved themselves there wouldn't be disrespect. Go ahead and ask me for solid and reliable source on your people's criminality in Europe. How can you not understand why your people are disrespected?

When my cousin lived in the Netherlands she had to be escorted every workday to the bus stop by her fiance because your people would just hang around and harass women. Needless to say, he's a big dude and so they didn't try anything. My other cousin works in the Spanish prison system. Your people are over represented among inmates. As a group, your people are a problem for whichever European nation they settle. These personal experiences are supported by data on crime and ethnicity (France, unfortunately, doesn't keep track of ethnicity and crime but we both know who fills up the prisons there. Why would it be any different in France?).

Generalizations and stereotypes that's like saying all hispanic citizens in the US are a problem meanwhile most of them are well-behaved and honest citizens.



This reminds me of the Egyptian who told me they beat the Israelis in the 1973 war. The Moroccans lost. If they had won, the Spaniards wouldn't have control of Moroccan territory today. Winners don't lose territory.

Moroccans, whether Rif Berbers or your people, were defeated in the following wars:

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)
The Rif War (1920-1926)

There are losses that go back further.


Indeed but the egyptian case is actually similar to yours since what you're currently doing is called historical revisionism. Riffians completely defeated spaniards (biggest colonial defeat in history) but the whole situation changed when France decided to help Spaniards because they feared moroccans under their authority would have been inspired by all these victories.

reality :


The coordination of French and Spanish forces during the late summer of 1925 led to an amphibious landing of over 18,000 Spanish troops to the west of Alhucemas Bay on September 8, 1925, and a concomitant push of perhaps as many as 20,000 French troops north from their protectorate. Abd el-Krim’s forces, which may have numbered anywhere from 9,000 to 13,000 men, were no match for the combined strength of those two European powers. On October 2, 1925, the Spanish occupied Abd el-Krim’s home base of Ajdir, and between October 1925 and March 1926, they gained control of most of the territories in their protectorate.


The Rif War balance sheet was striking. Official Spanish casualty figures published in the late 1920s put losses at approximately 43,500 troops killed, missing, or wounded. Moreover, estimates put Spanish war-related expenses at 3.2 billion pesetas (more than $540 million), an astronomical figure given the size of Spain’s economy at the time. French casualties were fewer but still notable, with as many as 18,000 killed, missing, or wounded.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Rif-War

For people interested in a neutral and objective description of the War see this video :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgTXDkwwz2o&t=329s


These guys couldn't even win against the poorest moroccan peasants ....anyway stop embarassing yourself when it comes to History you're clearly not at my level.





It's nothing to be proud of, really. It's just beating up on a weak neighbor. However, you receive medals for personal bravery. That is to be commended, whether it's against civilized or uncivilized people.

"Bravery" against civilians/peasants XD





Yes, and why wouldn't he use cannon fodder? A Moroccan dying for the cause that isn't his means Franco keeps a Spanish nationalist alive. Spanish Nationalist lives matter. Moroccan mercenary lives don't. But you go ahead and take pride in Moroccans being ordered by Spaniards to further their own objectives (wipe out the Reds), which includes oppressing other Moroccans. Franco's first command was leading Moroccans to oppress other Moroccans, you know.

Hahaha cannon fodder ? that's why most losses did not concern them ? that's why one of his best general was moroccan ? That's why they had an almost total liberty on the battlefield ? What I see are moroccan voluntaries being payed to kill spaniards that's how low your nation can fall.






I see your English comprehension is typical of a 3rd Worlder. Was I speaking of the Spanish Civil War when I said my family members fought in Spain's colonial war in North Africa? What do my family members killing savages in North Africa have to do with the Spanish Civil War? Neither my grandpa - who was conscripted into the Franco army as a teenager - or my other grandpa's brother, who was an officer in Franco's army, saw combat or had anything to do with Moroccans except when my grandpa was stationed in Morocco after the war making sure your grandpa behaved. The family members who fought in the Spanish colonial wars in North Africa had already passed.

I see you can't even comprehend my implicit remarks. You got defeated by peasants and sheperds then franco (who fought in morocco) later used moroccans to even more humiliate your people.

"killing savages in North Africa" ? hahah seems you forgot you have north african ancestors even more ridiculous since you're from galicia the most north african admixed region XD




Your raping family members is something I did bring up to Cristiano Viejo as a slight against Franco but he had no issue because it was done against leftists. I, of course, find it appalling and always bring it up to lovers of Franco. Red or not rape and murder are wrong. It is amusing, however, that you would bring it up as an "Aha! moment! I got him!" Congratulations on letting everyone know that Moroccan troops were rapists and murderers of women and children because Franco gave them the go ahead. It doesn't appear to take much to get Moroccans to rape, murder, and pillage, though. The question is are you proud of Moroccans raping and pillaging? It is something of a norm among your people in Europe but you may be the outlier.


Stop making assumptions about me only spaniards could take pride in rape and murder they did so for centuries in America. I posted those quotes to make you realize how much you got humiliated and all of this accepted by your own people. Where is your dignity ? Such thing wouldn't have been accepted in North Africa Be sure.

Literally moroccan mercenaries doing what they want and praised by Franco ...the latter being praised by modern spanish nationalists lol see the joke you are ?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

He's totally the "norm", it's been years I interact with iberians only a minority does acknowledge their north african ancestry the rest keep spamming their commercial results thinking they have no NA ancestry lol

So many Iberians have posted their 3rd party results revealing NA admixture. Why ignore that? Oh, right. I know why. A silly question by me.




The smartest of them have difficulties denying it but try to lower it by only focusing on iberomaurusian ancestry or claim the component is very old or even go as far as claiming ancient north africans were actually white therefore such admixture has nothing to do with the modern ones.

What you wrote is a summarization of what that particular poster you referenced said and you applied it to the entire group. How unusual that every 'point' that poster (gota_type? Or whatever his username was) in that long winded post is being projected on a number of people.

This is good evidence that you blend different posters in your mind to fit your assumptions even when they say things that contradict your assumptions you don't have the ability to discern because it would undermine your desired belief. You certainly did so to me in this thread, as I've shown, despite me saying things that would contradict those assumptions.


nope he simply bothers you because he do not act as insecure as other iberian members if he had asked the same kind of question but about visigoth you wouldn't have reacted like this.

Here you are making assumptions. If he asked the same thing about Visigoths, I would point the obvious: they had almost no genetic impact on the population. They weren't significant in numbers to do so.

He bothers me because he is obsessed with Iberians. He can't make more than one post in a row without speaking of us. Even if an Iberian says something that he doesn't like that has nothing to do with NA admixture he starts talking about it. It's a mental illness because he's uncomfortable with himself.

If he went around rambling about Visigoths that would be embarrassing and yes I would behave the same way because it would make Iberians look bad. It's stupid.


And you obviously wouldn't have done a better job than me lol I'm not expecting much objectivity from someone like you.


I can refer to better scholars than yourself. You assume I would present a negative picture of the Moorish invasion. You don't know me. You just make assumptions. If you read my initial post in this thread, which you did, and think I can't be objective then that says more about you than me.


That's not only for him but for every viewer interested in the topic and to counter the usual arguments of iberian and arabist members.

You're just as neurotic as he is. What would be the Iberian argument? That Berbers never existed? That it was Martians? You can see my initial post in this thread.

I can see Arabs trying to claim it because people often but incorrectly associate the invasion with Arabs only.



Generalizations and stereotypes that's like saying all hispanic citizens in the US are a problem meanwhile most of them are well-behaved and honest citizens.

Do you understand the concepts of proportion and probability? What does it matter if most people from group X are well behaved and honest citizens when a large number of them are not? Crime, whether it be violent, or property, etc., takes a big toll on society, and if your group is well over represented then they're simply a problem. A problem that other groups don't have at the same proportion. How well do Moroccans match up with other groups when it comes to being well behaved? Not good. If crime was a sport, Moroccans would be elite athletes.

Look in the mirror: that's the face that fills up prisons in the EU.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png/528px-Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png

https://i.imgur.com/4N6f8uG.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/xOoUC5W.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/BxRxYkW.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/fhpyLl7.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/2NkAZsH.jpeg

https://imgur.com/a/ftapXeZ

Tell me more about generalizations. There is clearly a problem, and the problem is your people (as well as other groups who appear to have something in common other than being criminally oriented...)


Indeed but the egyptian case is actually similar to yours since what you're currently doing is called historical revisionism. Riffians completely defeated spaniards (biggest colonial defeat in history) but the whole situation changed when France decided to help Spaniards because they feared moroccans under their authority would have been inspired by all these victories.

What fear would there be? For centuries Moroccans consistently lost against Spanish troops.

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)

Notice how you have nothing to say about the wars I listed? Did you not find articles in the encyclopedia Brittanica on those conflicts? Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

The Rif Berbers were pushing into French territory and so as expected they got involved.

If you knew anything beyond Encyclopedia Britannica articles you'd know the vast majority of Spanish soldiers were poorly trained conscripts who except for the so called "Diasater of Annual" didn't see much combat (and that was because those men had been forced into a conflict having been in distant outposts, as I point out below). It was the Legion and veterans who saw combat when they pushed back, while the conscripts guarded ground that was already taken by the former.


reality :

It is ironic that you accuse me of revisionism. It was you who literally said the Rif Berbers won the war. They did not. It's like saying the initial Japanese victory in the Philipines against the US military means the US lost the war.

Yeah, reality: you (well, not you. You're a quadroom Moroccan from centuries of the Islamic slave trade unlike Rif Berbers, who are more similar genetically to the ancient Moors,) won a battle because a foolish general over extended a poorly trained and poorly paid conscript army to make himself superficially look good by appearing to take ground and a greedy general sold Spanish arms to those Rif Berbers for years prior to the war to make himself rich (ironically he was killed in battle by those same weapons). But at the end of the day, the Rif Berbers lost, which makes your claim an example of revisionism. Moroccans in the past few centuries always lost. The fact it's referred to as a colonial war should give you a hint that the previous conflicts didn't work out well for your people.

This is also a reality:

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)

Your silence was louder than words: I understand you can't possibly have anything to say about those defeats.

Now read on if you would like to further your education on the subject.


For people interested in a neutral and objective description of the War see this video :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgTXDkwwz2o&t=329s

I recommend the video also. I haven't seen it in a long time but I don't recall taking issue with it.



These guys couldn't even win against the poorest moroccan peasants ....

Guerilla wars are always difficult and Rif Berbers aren't typical of the Moroccan people and hence why the Spanish military enlisted them often to fight against their own. In fact, those Rif Berbers who fought against Spain were often former soldiers in the Spanish army. Abd el-Krim himself had worked for the Spanish.


anyway stop embarassing yourself when it comes to History you're clearly not at my level.

Apparently, you're so well educated on military history that you ignored the list of wars Moroccans lost in the 19th and early 20th century that I posted. You didn't even know most of those Rif Berbers had experience in the Spanish army. I get it: you have google. That makes every low IQ fool think he knows the details. I can't blame you, really. You come from a low IQ population and so what you think is grand just reflects your low IQ. Now before you ramble about 'but you have ancestors from that population, too! You have Moorish blood!" as you do later when I refer to savages, well, apparently it isn't enough to make us stupid. We may share some blood but the two groups have drastically different IQ averages. Our interaction reflects this on the individual level.



"Bravery" against civilians/peasants XD

As I pointed out, most were former soldiers in the Spanish army. Maybe you should read more than Encyclopedia Britannica and a youtube video. In other words, get into the details. I believe they even mentioned it in the video but it was a long time since I've seen it.


Hahaha cannon fodder ? that's why most losses did not concern them ? that's why one of his best general was moroccan ? That's why they had an almost total liberty on the battlefield ? What I see are moroccan voluntaries being payed to kill spaniards that's how low your nation can fall.

Yes, cannon fodder. People whose deaths don't matter. None of your 'questions' negate that armies would prefer foreigners die in their service than their own. It's the same thing that happened in the US Civil War where they used German and Irish immigrants in the front lines because they didn't want the deaths of Yankees to undermine morale at home. People don't like to see their sons come back in coffins. They don't care if it's a foreigner who dies. Why do you think the French Foreign Legion was created? Or why they're always thrown in the fire? No one in France cries over their deaths.






I see you can't even comprehend my implicit remarks. You got defeated by peasants and sheperds then franco (who fought in morocco) later used moroccans to even more humiliate your people.

As I already pointed out, they were trained by the Spanish. In fact, the war wouldn't have happened if the Spanish authorities didn't stop payment to Rif tribal leaders to get access to their young men as recruits.


"killing savages in North Africa" ? hahah seems you forgot you have north african ancestors even more ridiculous since you're from galicia the most north african admixed region XD

I didn't forget. Everyone was a savage in the 8th century. As the crime statistics that I posted show, however, some people are still savages. We evolved. You didn't.


Stop making assumptions about me only spaniards could take pride in rape and murder they did so for centuries in America.

Actually, most births in the Americas were from concubinage, and while there were certainly severe abuses and degradation- people were savages at the time - 90% died from European diseases. There is a benefit for women to hook up with men with high status because of the benefit to the children in such a volatile environment. Now tell me again how knowledgeable you are of history...

It is ironic that someone whose ancestors took part in the devastating and brutal Islamic slave trade of West Africans wants to talk about horrors. Tell me about the castrated men. Tell me about the women who would find their way in your gene pool, unlike with the Rif and Kabyle Berbers. We see an elevation of SSA in North Africans who have been 'Arabicized' because of the brutal Islamic slave trade. That's not saying having SSA ancestry is bad. That will be your assumption because you're simple. It's to point out how large and extensive the abuse of SSA men and women for centuries had been but go ahead and counter with the European Atlantic slave trade as expected because I'll bitch slap you on that also. Everything you try ends with a virtual bitch slap from my virtual hand and so be predictable and come at me, bro. I have a very strong background in the Trans Atlantic Slave trade. You'll be getting a free education.


I posted those quotes to make you realize how much you got humiliated and all of this accepted by your own people.

Reds weren't seen as humans but it was your people who did the actual crimes. Franco and his staff may have allowed it but it was your people who actually did it. You took pride in that and you're still taking pride in that. I'm not humiliated. I'm disgusted.

I understand you come from a culture that looks at a woman who was raped as a humiliation instead of a horrible crime committed against them and so we can't understand each other. We come from different moral worlds.


Where is your dignity ? Such thing wouldn't have been accepted in North Africa Be sure.

I don't understand how this is a question of my dignity. I didn't rape anyone. It was your people raping women, and you find that amusing.

It would be accepted in North Africa because those same criminal Moroccan mercenaries did so because they were taught by the Spanish Nationalists that the Communists were atheists (infidels). They would have done the same thing to Moroccan Communists. There is an article interviewing these criminals and that's what they said. I don't care to look for it. You can easily find it by googling.


Literally moroccan mercenaries doing what they want and praised by Franco ...the latter being praised by modern spanish nationalists lol see the joke you are ?

I literally said in my other post I use Franco's use of Moroccan troops as a slight against people like CV who are extreme nationalists that adore Franco.
You also completely ignored what I said about the leftists. Maybe you're too ignorant to know what it means to be a leftist in that time period. You do, after all, come from a low IQ nation, and so I should expect simple minded reactions instead of knowledgeable responses.

Or maybe your IQ is just average (which makes you a genius among your people) but you don't understand English well. Add to this disability your inability to think beyond your assumptions. This is why you say 'Iberians poster says this and that' even when presented with an Iberian poster that contradicts your assumption you shoehorn us into your assumption because you're simple minded. As I said, I already addressed Franco and his Moroccan troops in the other post: go read it but feel free to repeat yourself again as if it wasn't addressed.

The following, however, wasn't addressed by you:

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)

You responded to everything I said except the above. I wonder why...

[mashail]

The moors who invaded Iberia according to history they were berber\ Yemeni\Syrians.

[chinshen]

The moors who invaded Iberia according to history they were berber\ Yemeni\Syrians.

How could Syrians of the seventh century C.E be moors if they just had been conquered by the Arab Muslim forces not long before that?
So all of a sudden the indigenous population of Syria just became moors because they got occupied by the Arab Muslims fifty years earlier?
While the Crusaders who conquered and ruled costal Syria for about two hundred years were still considered outside occupiers, I see double standards here.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Initially most were berbers and berberised carthaginians, aswell as levantines. But eventually most of the iberian muslims ended up being european converts (islamic empires always ruled largely via conversions not population replacements).

[Alazair]

So many Iberians have posted their 3rd party results revealing NA admixture. Why ignore that? Oh, right. I know why. A silly question by me.

I'm talking about most iberian users I've met on internet not only the ones on TA.




What you wrote is a summarization of what that particular poster you referenced said and you applied it to the entire group. How unusual that every 'point' that poster (gota_type? Or whatever his username was) in that long winded post is being projected on a number of people.

This is good evidence that you blend different posters in your mind to fit your assumptions even when they say things that contradict your assumptions you don't have the ability to discern because it would undermine your desired belief. You certainly did so to me in this thread, as I've shown, despite me saying things that would contradict those assumptions.

Again I'm not only talking about one user.




Here you are making assumptions. If he asked the same thing about Visigoths, I would point the obvious: they had almost no genetic impact on the population. They weren't significant in numbers to do so.

That's your opinion and not representative of what I constantly see.


He bothers me because he is obsessed with Iberians. He can't make more than one post in a row without speaking of us. Even if an Iberian says something that he doesn't like that has nothing to do with NA admixture he starts talking about it. It's a mental illness because he's uncomfortable with himself.

He's portuguese so obviously he'll talk about his people...and he does not obsess over NA admixture just check his post history.




I can refer to better scholars than yourself. You assume I would present a negative picture of the Moorish invasion. You don't know me. You just make assumptions. If you read my initial post in this thread, which you did, and think I can't be objective then that says more about you than me.

No you can't and you already showed your hatred for north africans so how can I expect historical objectivity from this ?




You're just as neurotic as he is. What would be the Iberian argument? That Berbers never existed? That it was Martians? You can see my initial post in this thread. I can see Arabs trying to claim it because people often but incorrectly associate the invasion with Arabs only.

Ask your scholars :

https://i.imgur.com/9d3IMkh.png


I've seen every absurd argument coming from spaniards even your scholars aren't spared by this lol









Do you understand the concepts of proportion and probability? What does it matter if most people from group X are well behaved and honest citizens when a large number of them are not? Crime, whether it be violent, or property, etc., takes a big toll on society, and if your group is well over represented then they're simply a problem. A problem that other groups don't have at the same proportion. How well do Moroccans match up with other groups when it comes to being well behaved? Not good. If crime was a sport, Moroccans would be elite athletes.

Look in the mirror: that's the face that fills up prisons in the EU.
Tell me more about generalizations. There is clearly a problem, and the problem is your people (as well as other groups who appear to have something in common other than being criminally oriented...)


Still how does that contradict what I said ? Most moroccans aren't concerned by this and as your statistics shows it mostly involves people who were born in europe not 1st gen immigrants. So the problem is specifically european and this was already highlighted by some studies :



Furthermore, the specific ethno-cultural position of ethnic minority groups may contribute to the tendency of committing predominantly property crime. Moroccan migrants are different in terms of religion, culture, education and language than Dutch natives and therefore face difficulties in participation in society’s institutions and the development of interpersonal contacts with members of the majority group (Harchaoui, 2001; Junger-Tas, 2001). This is especially the case when the ethnic majority population does not accept the lifestyle and customs of the ethnic minority group, which to some extent seems to be at hand for Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands (Junger-Tas, 2001). These social exclusion mechanisms increase a marginalized position in society (e.g. not feeling accepted in the host country and feeling discriminated; Junger-Tas, 2001), which in turn may result into a chronic feeling of low hopes for a prosperous future in this society and of indifference. This mechanism may make an individual more prone to steal from the dominant society. Also, it is worth noting that theories of deprivation suggest higher levels of crime involvement of immigrants as social deprivation (i.e. unemployment, poor education, low average income, low socio-economic status) make immigrants a distinct social group (Albrecht, 1995). According to Social Control Theory (Gottfredson & Hirschi, 1990), immigrants may be more involved in crime since they are inhibited in developing bonds to the new society. Especially youths of the second, third and fourth but not the first generation of immigrants may become more involved in crime as they face concentrated disadvantage (Morenoff & Astor, 2006), and the development of bonds (with parents and society) is at risk due to acculturation conflicts between immigrant generations (Albrecht, 1995).Finally, another explanation for the over-representation of ethnic minorities regarding property offences, is that these groups may not be treated the same as the ethnic majority group in the criminal justice system. Various international studies found that the overall over-representation of ethnic minorities in the juvenile justice system can be the result of disparities in sentencing (Engen et al., 2002; Mustard, 2001). Minority youths are more likely to be referred to juvenile court, to be detained and to go to jail than the ethnic majority youths (Rodney & Tachia, 2004). In the present study we found that Moroccan adolescent offenders were taken into pre-trial arrest more often, often for less serious (i.e. property) offences and at a younger age than native Dutch offenders. Our findings might therefore also be the result of a more repressive and punitive approach towards Moroccan youth. Furthermore, being detained before trial (pre-trial arrest) increases the probability that a prison sentence will be imposed after trial (Hagan & Palloni, 1999). Thus, possible ethnic disparities in sentencing could also lead to higher conviction rates and prison sentences for Moroccan youth in the Netherlands. In line with this, a recent study in the Netherlands revealed that adolescents with an ethnic minority background are convicted to longer prison sentences than native Dutch adolescents (Komen & Van Schooten, 2006).

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10683160903418205






What fear would there be? For centuries Moroccans consistently lost against Spanish troops.

Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60)
The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94)
The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912)

Notice how you have nothing to say about the wars I listed? Did you not find articles in the encyclopedia Brittanica on those conflicts? Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.


Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60) didn't reached its goals and simply reinforced the spanish claim on ceuta and melilla + just look at the number of deaths on the spanish side in a time when Morocco was far behind in terms of technological development.


The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94) lol is that supposed to be a "war" just an expedition against a bunch of turbulent riffian tribes.


The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912) that's literally 35 000 men against 1500...(1500 riffian peasants btw)

Again stop trying to portray these as something "glorious" meanwhile historically the pattern is clear it has always been north africans dominating over iberians and it will always be so.





If you knew anything beyond Encyclopedia Britannica articles you'd know the vast majority of Spanish soldiers were poorly trained conscripts who except for the so called "Diasater of Annual" didn't see much combat (and that was because those men had been forced into a conflict having been in distant outposts, as I point out below). It was the Legion and veterans who saw combat when they pushed back, while the conscripts guarded ground that was already taken by the former.

are moroccan peasants with primitive weaponry supposed to be better ? That war was won because of France.




It is ironic that you accuse me of revisionism. It was you who literally said the Rif Berbers won the war. They did not. It's like saying the initial Japanese victory in the Philipines against the US military means the US lost the war.

I said they defeated spaniards which is the truth. Spain was completely losing control over the region and Abd el-krim kept taking more and more territories ; the situation changed when France got involved and used chemical weapons against civilians.



Yeah, reality: you (well, not you. You're a quadroom Moroccan from centuries of the Islamic slave trade unlike Rif Berbers, who are more similar genetically to the ancient Moors,) won a battle because a foolish general over extended a poorly trained and poorly paid conscript army to make himself superficially look good by appearing to take ground and a greedy general sold Spanish arms to those Rif Berbers for years prior to the war to make himself rich (ironically he was killed in battle by those same weapons). But at the end of the day, the Rif Berbers lost, which makes your claim an example of revisionism. Moroccans in the past few centuries always lost. The fact it's referred to as a colonial war should give you a hint that the previous conflicts didn't work out well for your people.

funny because I'm actually more northern shifted than the average riffian and 3/4 of my ancestry is riffian.

"muh quadroon" yes that's why I'm similar to ancient berbers :


Target: Alazair
Distance: 2.9501% / 0.02950090
46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
12.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 Yoruba
5.0 Levant_Natufian
1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 WHG

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche
Distance: 1.8302% / 0.01830177
41.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian
9.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 Levant_Natufian
6.4 Yoruba
1.4 WHG


And ancient moors weren't "whiter" they have always been described as "dark" :



Moors and Romans, these authors insisted, could be distinguished by the whole range of traditional markers of ethnic identity: language, diet, dress and battlegear, military tactics, marriage customs, religion, and even the perceived darkness of their skin."

Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.261-262



Finally, Moors were also typically thought of as darker-skinned than the Byzantines and Romano-Africans living along the Mediterranean coast. Procopius says as much, calling the Moors ‘dark-skinned’ or ‘swarthy’ as a people.Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or ‘Moor’ had become an adjective in Latin, ‘for the Greeks call “black” mauron’.91 In Isidore’s day, Moors were black by definition.

Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.269-270


Anyway do not try to find excuses, you got severely defeated by peasants who were by far less better equipped than your spaniards "conscripts" only France could save Spain's Honor.







I recommend the video also. I haven't seen it in a long time but I don't recall taking issue with it.

Indeed you should watch it again it shows exactly what I said.





Guerilla wars are always difficult and Rif Berbers aren't typical of the Moroccan people and hence why the Spanish military enlisted them often to fight against their own. In fact, those Rif Berbers who fought against Spain were often former soldiers in the Spanish army. Abd el-Krim himself had worked for the Spanish.

Indeed they aren't typical they were the poorest of all moroccans. And most moroccan recruits in the spanish army weren't even from the Rif...




Apparently, you're so well educated on military history that you ignored the list of wars Moroccans lost in the 19th and early 20th century that I posted. You didn't even know most of those Rif Berbers had experience in the Spanish army. I get it: you have google. That makes every low IQ fool think he knows the details. I can't blame you, really. You come from a low IQ population and so what you think is grand just reflects your low IQ. Now before you ramble about 'but you have ancestors from that population, too! You have Moorish blood!" as you do later when I refer to savages, well, apparently it isn't enough to make us stupid. We may share some blood but the two groups have drastically different IQ averages. Our interaction reflects this on the individual level.

Google ? I have a whole collection of books on my region + many books in pdf do not project your case pls as I said you're not at my level regarding this topic.

"muh low IQ " yeah ok don't you have something concrete to help your case ?





As I pointed out, most were former soldiers in the Spanish army. Maybe you should read more than Encyclopedia Britannica and a youtube video. In other words, get into the details. I believe they even mentioned it in the video but it was a long time since I've seen it.

Nope most of them didn't fight in your armies not all moroccans are riffians and not all north moroccans are riffians.




Yes, cannon fodder. People whose deaths don't matter. None of your 'questions' negate that armies would prefer foreigners die in their service than their own. It's the same thing that happened in the US Civil War where they used German and Irish immigrants in the front lines because they didn't want the deaths of Yankees to undermine morale at home. People don't like to see their sons come back in coffins. They don't care if it's a foreigner who dies. Why do you think the French Foreign Legion was created? Or why they're always thrown in the fire? No one in France cries over their deaths.


Most soldiers and losses were not moroccans + Moroccans were literally elite troops and like I said one of his best general was also moroccan so it's not just "mercenaries" but a well integrated and key element of Franco's army.






Actually, most births in the Americas were from concubinage, and while there were certainly severe abuses and degradation- people were savages at the time - 90% died from European diseases. There is a benefit for women to hook up with men with high status because of the benefit to the children in such a volatile environment. Now tell me again how knowledgeable you are of history...

It is ironic that someone whose ancestors took part in the devastating and brutal Islamic slave trade of West Africans wants to talk about horrors. Tell me about the castrated men. Tell me about the women who would find their way in your gene pool, unlike with the Rif and Kabyle Berbers. We see an elevation of SSA in North Africans who have been 'Arabicized' because of the brutal Islamic slave trade. That's not saying having SSA ancestry is bad. That will be your assumption because you're simple. It's to point out how large and extensive the abuse of SSA men and women for centuries had been but go ahead and counter with the European Atlantic slave trade as expected because I'll bitch slap you on that also. Everything you try ends with a virtual bitch slap from my virtual hand and so be predictable and come at me, bro. I have a very strong background in the Trans Atlantic Slave trade. You'll be getting a free education.

I did not deny any pacific union but you can't deny all the atrocities commited by these savages of spaniards. As for the Islamic slave trade why do you talk about things you barely know anything about ? Most men were not castrated and overall slaves were better treated than the ones who lived under european's rule :


Overall, in contrast to the slaves of the Americas, the slave ancestors of black people in the cotemporary Arab-Islamic world were not typically employed in large-scale agriculture or outdoor work. The most common and enduring purpose for which slaves – black and white – were acquired in the Arab world was to work as domestics and concubines in Arab households (Gordon 1998). The human booty of the conquests of the early Arab Islamic era brought large black slave populations to the region even when there was little for them to do in terms of economic production. Female slaves fulfilled household chores – chambermaids, cooks, seamstresses, wet nurses – and served as concubines (Gordon 1998). Within households, male slaves were used as servants, gardeners, watchmen, and all-around household help. Slave children became confidents to their master’s sons and daughters (Gordon 1998). In oases areas and other places with arable land, black people were forced into harsh and difficult agricultural slavery, sometimes on a smallscale. In addition to the high proportion of domestic household slavery, slavery in the Arab-Islamic world differed from trans-Atlantic slavery in that some slaves were made into armed guards and soldiers, something unthinkable in the history of the Americas. As a constant, Muslim-rulers, who depended on family, kin, and social networks for protection and political support, had to confront similarly well-connected rivals who could sway the rulers’ supporters to join rebellions. To overcome this dependence and vulnerability, some rulers turned slaves into trusted guards and loyal soldiers by rewarding and training them. These mamluks, totally dependent on the rulers in societies in which they were strangers, increased the robustness of the rulers’ power by helping them dominate and control rivals without fear of betrayal by their armed forces. They also contributed to state power by serving as administrators, and on rare occasions, transitioned from king-makers to kings themselves. Eunuchs, castrated to guard and manage the masters’ harems, also could amass considerable power. In some places, the memories of black soldiers as the sultans’ enforcers contribute to contemporary hostility toward Blacks in the region

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13629387.2019.1670645


same for european slaves :



A French captive, Claude Auxcousteaux de Fercourt, who was held in Algiers from 1678 to 1679, attested how the indigenous Moors, unlike the Moriscos, were compassionate to Christian slaves and often spoke with them in the lingua franca: “No pilat fantasia, Dios grande, mondo cousi cousi; Dios fera it tua camino, si venira ventura ira a casa tua”/Don’t worry; God is great, the world, so, so; God will lead the way; an occasion will arrive for you to return home.156 An English 66 Part one captive in the last quarter of the seventeenth century, Adam Elliot, used to sit with his Moroccan captor and his companions and tell them about life in London and sing popular English songs to them.157 After a French captive, Lewis Marott, made his escape from Tunisia, he returned to trade with his former captor, who became his very good friend.158 An “English renegade known by the name of James Kerr . . . always attend[ed the] Court” of Mulay Isma'il.159 During her captivity in 1756, Elizabeth Crisp met numerous English renegades who had married Moorish women and had learned about English custom and social habits.

Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 65-66


and there is no increase in SSA, guanches plot with modern NAs, the copper age samples plot with people like saharawis, mozabites, etc + 3rd century AD north africans plot with modern north africans (we see the same pattern when it comes to anthropological datas) You see as 90% of iberians I've met you can't resist in trying to whitewash our ancestors thanks for confirming the "assumptions" I had.



Reds weren't seen as humans but it was your people who did the actual crimes. Franco and his staff may have allowed it but it was your people who actually did it. You took pride in that and you're still taking pride in that. I'm not humiliated. I'm disgusted.

I understand you come from a culture that looks at a woman who was raped as a humiliation instead of a horrible crime committed against them and so we can't understand each other. We come from different moral worlds.

Again I didn't say I don't condemn it or take pride in it ; it simply shows the absurdity reached by your own people. Literally letting foreigners raping your own women because of political conflicts...




I don't understand how this is a question of my dignity. I didn't rape anyone. It was your people raping women, and you find that amusing.

Of course you can't understand with your individualistic mindset you dindu nuffin and these women aren't your sisters so who cares ?


It would be accepted in North Africa because those same criminal Moroccan mercenaries did so because they were taught by the Spanish Nationalists that the Communists were atheists (infidels). They would have done the same thing to Moroccan Communists. There is an article interviewing these criminals and that's what they said. I don't care to look for it. You can easily find it by googling.

You think moroccans would have bring spanish mercenaries to rape their own women because of muh communism ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH




I literally said in my other post I use Franco's use of Moroccan troops as a slight against people like CV who are extreme nationalists that adore Franco.
You also completely ignored what I said about the leftists. Maybe you're too ignorant to know what it means to be a leftist in that time period. You do, after all, come from a low IQ nation, and so I should expect simple minded reactions instead of knowledgeable responses.

Or maybe your IQ is just average (which makes you a genius among your people) but you don't understand English well. Add to this disability your inability to think beyond your assumptions. This is why you say 'Iberians poster says this and that' even when presented with an Iberian poster that contradicts your assumption you shoehorn us into your assumption because you're simple minded. As I said, I already addressed Franco and his Moroccan troops in the other post: go read it but feel free to repeat yourself again as if it wasn't addressed.



Again IQ ? Are you insecure about something or maybe is it some kind of superiority complex ? If you really want to know I got once 114 and the last time 115 so I'm well above the european average let alone Spain. Anyway you're probably 2X times my age and you still can't really rivalize with me.

You pretend I don't understand you but that's simply projecting since you do not understand any of my implicit answers I always have to go into detail with you like with a retard.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I'm talking about most iberian users I've met on internet not only the ones on TA.

Again I'm not only talking about one user.


The fact Iberian posters who have done their 3rd party ancestry test revealing NA ancestry and have no issue undermines your claim. You can go on and on about "but.. but.. Iberians say this in other places I've been on the internet" isn't evidence because it comes from you: someone who is pushing that narrative to your own benefit. In other words, you can't be trusted because of your bias. A rational person wouldn't trust me either because they can argue that I also have a bias except, as I said, I can post examples of a number Iberians openly showing their 3rd party genetic results revealing their NA admixture without issue.





That's your opinion and not representative of what I constantly see.

You don't constantly see Iberians running around talking about Visigoths because that doesn't happen. It's not my opinion that a claim that something is constantly happening isn't happening. It's the reality.




He's portuguese so obviously he'll talk about his people...and he does not obsess over NA admixture just check his post history.

He says he's Spanish. I guess he must have revealed to you he was the banned Portuguese poster Luso.

I have checked his posting history. He is obsessed. For you to say the opposite after supposedly looking at his posting history either means you haven't done so, or you're simply incapable of being honest.

His most recent thread:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357912-The-Truth-about-Iberians



No you can't and you already showed your hatred for north africans so how can I expect historical objectivity from this ?

What I've shown is a dislike of modern North Africans because of your criminality. What does your cousin robbing a liquor store or raping a woman have to do with historical events? Nothing. It's about protecting people in 2022.

When it comes to historical people, I view them in their time and place. It doesn't mean I approve of what they did, or don't think what they did was wrong, but I understand the values of the time period were different. What Cromwell did to the Irish was horrible but his behavior - although more brutal than what would even be typical of the time - is still within the moral framework of how people were at that time.

Some cultures evolve, fortunately, but others have not. Why would I want to live with a population whose culture hasn't evolved to accept better values? I knew a guy in the Netherlands. He enjoys going to the beach with his metal detector. The Dutch kids are curious and ask questions. The North African kids hassle him. They kick water at him. They are bothersome. There is a cultural difference, which one can argue is a consequence of a difference in intelligence.




Ask your scholars :

I've seen every absurd argument coming from spaniards even your scholars aren't spared by this lol

There are academics who believe in absurd things. Funny enough you have to refer to a long dead one. Jacques de Mahieu was an academic who believed White people came from Atlantis, and that Templar Knights settled in the Americas. There are many academic kooks. These are fringe people in academia.

Here is a Spaniard taking Olagüe to task:


In 2014, Alejandro García Sanjuán[6] published an extensive critique of Olagüe's thesis regarding the Muslim conquest,[7] analyzing the manipulation of the Muslim period on the Iberian peninsula through a "negationist current, which aims to dissociate the origin of al-Andalus from the conquest and represents," according to the author, a "historiographical fraud carried out by the manipulation, in some cases, and the slanting, in others, of the historical record."

Another:


historian Eduardo Manzano Moreno observed that "the most surprising thing about Olagüe's thesis is not how crazy it is. Strange and absurd historical theories produced by amateurs, publicists, or even academic historians are counted by the dozens or hundreds. Normally, they tend to be forgotten with the same speed with which they cause a certain initial stir. On the other hand, the idea that Muslims did not really invade Hispania, although it did not cause an excessive echo in its time, seems to be receiving renewed attention in recent times. This is partly the result of its diffusion and discussion in certain Internet forums, where the preference that some of its cultivators have for everything to do with conspiracy theories and whatever puts received knowledge into question is well known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacio_Olag%C3%BCe

Another:


Dr. María Isabel Fierro Bello
Olagüe's arguments - who did not know Arabic and had an attitude quite lax in justifying what he based some of his most emphatic assertions on - they are a often as blunt as groundless.

https://www.ucm.es/data/cont/docs/297-2013-07-29-1-08.pdf


It's only repeated by some fringe elements and retards online. CV, for example, does not represent the norm. A fringe doesn't represent the norm. Northern Europeans who are Nordicists that think Ancient Greeks were all blond and blue eyed don't represent the norm.

But let's ignore all that in favor of a kook who isn't taken seriously by Spanish scholars.



Still how does that contradict what I said ? Most moroccans aren't concerned by this...

Of course, Moroccans aren't concerned with crime. It's your cultural norm.


...and as your statistics shows it mostly involves people who were born in europe not 1st gen immigrants. So the problem is specifically european and this was already highlighted by some studies :

You're so dumb you can't even see the obvious: BOTH Moroccan immigrants and their offspring in Denmark are a problem. It's just that the offspring are far worse. Look at it again:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png/528px-Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png

Compare between groups, you dumb fuck. It's right in front of you. It's literally right there. No one can be this stupid.

Your studies are 'liberal' nonsense with a number of fallacies, which I will show you:

1) If it's the fault of the justice system discriminating against your people then why is it that murder and rapes are also high? It's not just some types of crimes. It's all types of crimes. A murder is a murder, whether it's done by a German or a Moroccan. The Morrocan may get more prison time for it but that's irrelevant to how often that group commits murder.

2) There are more Chinese living in Germany than Moroccans. How is it that racial minorities like the Chinese don't have such high crime rates? The disparity in crime between Chinese and Moroccans living in Germany is huge. In fact, the Chinese in many of the categories commit fewer crimes than the German population.

Chinese Pop

The largest group of non-European immigrants in the last ten years were people from Syria (440,000), followed by the traditionally strongest immigration country, the USA (324,000). Then come with China (212,000),
https://web.archive.org/web/20171209232407/http://www.bib-demografie.de/DE/Aktuelles/Presse/Archiv/2017/2017-03-01-zuwanderung-aussereuropaeische-Laender-fast-verdoppelt.html

Moroccan Pop

Germany has decided to open its borders to around 200,000 new immigrants with higher education degrees per year, including nearly 40,000 Moroccans, adding to the 100,000 Moroccans already living in Germany.
https://www.bladi.net/l-allemagne-immigration-marocains.html

It indicates it's not racism. People from one culture behave themselves. People from the other do not.

This part of your quote (why did you pretty much put the entire quote in bold?) amused me the most:


These social exclusion mechanisms increase a marginalized position in society (e.g. not feeling accepted in the host country and feeling discriminated; Junger-Tas, 2001), which in turn may result into a chronic feeling of low hopes for a prosperous future in this society and of indifference.

Typical 'liberal' nonsense. Trying to pass off criminal behavior on feeling, like, you know, sad and stuff because society doesn't like them... boo-hooo... boo-hoo. Funny how other ethnic groups that look drastically different from the majority population don't lash out and are productive citizens.

This also amused me because it reminds me of here in the US with Blacks:


Minority youths are more likely to be referred to juvenile court, to be detained and to go to jail than the ethnic majority youths (Rodney & Tachia, 2004).

I want to know the severity of the crime. An assault is an assault but there is a difference between someone being bloodied and someone who has been beaten unconscious, for example. On this, I can only refer to Black juvenile criminals in the US who are also more likely to be detained and to go to jail than Whites. The reason is the crime is typically much more brutal.





Spanish-Moroccan War (1859–60) didn't reached its goals and simply reinforced the spanish claim on ceuta and melilla + just look at the number of deaths on the spanish side in a time when Morocco was far behind in terms of technological development.

I did look at the numbers:

1,152 from combat
2, 888 from disease

Moroccan losses were estimated at 6,000. "But... but... technology!" Okay, the Moroccan government is full of retards who can't acquire technology because they're dumb and backward. So backward they can't even document their own casualties accurately. It has to be estimated because of incompetence. Spaniards were picking on low IQ weaklings: that's terrible.

Funny enough you didn't say what were their goals. I'll tell you because you may have simply forgotten: to end Rifian attacks on Spanish settlements and to be compensated for damaged done by those marauders because it was the Moroccan government's responsibility to keep their people behaving and they didn't. The consequence was a spanking.

Spaniards were awarded the following:

The Moroccan government agreed to do something about the Rif Berbers and pay 20,000, 000 in compensation.

The objective was made clear and the objective was met. The Spaniards didn't leave Tétouan until they were paid.


Warfare and Armed Conflicts: A Statistical Encyclopedia of Casualty and Other Figures, 1492-2015, 4th ed., Micheal Clodfelter, p. 199. (https://books.google.com/books?id=8urEDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)





The first Melillian Campaign (1893-94) lol is that supposed to be a "war" just an expedition against a bunch of turbulent riffian tribes.

'Campaign' basically means war with 3rd worlders. Obviously, the term 3rd Worlder wasn't used at the time but this is so you better understand.



The Second Melillian Campaign (1909-1912) that's literally 35 000 men against 1500...(1500 riffian peasants btw)

The number of Moroccans involved is unknown. Your Wikipedia reference is not cited. All the Spanish troops were conscripts, and they subdued most of the tribes. Remember, these are colonial wars. It's almost as if you're blaming me for Morocco's lowly national position. They're just peasants, you say. No, they're not. They're hardier warriors than other Moroccans. They've done far better than other Moroccans.


Again stop trying to portray these as something "glorious..."


I didn't say they were glorious. I literally said Spaniards were beating up on weaker people. I said receiving medals for bravery in combat is to be commended, whether it's against civilized people or savages.


...meanwhile historically the pattern is clear it has always been north africans dominating over iberians and it will always be so.

Spain controls Moroccan land. They've done so for 6 centuries. Tell me more about that supposed domination...

There is nothing that says 'we dominate' like immigrating to Spain to go on welfare and commit crimes, I guess, while Spaniards hold authority over pieces of your land.




are moroccan peasants with primitive weaponry supposed to be better ?

You're so mad that you ignored me stating how they had Spanish arms and were trained by the Spaniards. I went into the specifics.


That war was won because of France.

They helped end the war quicker but Moroccans weren't going to win that war. If you think that, then you're more ignorant of military matters than I thought.




I said they defeated spaniards which is the truth.

The war ended with Abd el-Krim surrendering. That is the truth.


Spain was completely losing control over the region and Abd el-krim kept taking more and more territories ; the situation changed when France got involved and used chemical weapons against civilians.

It's like I'm talking to a child: he lost at the end. Abd el-Krim died in captivity. Spain regained its colonial territory. You lost. Franco's Legion crushed you.





funny because I'm actually more northern shifted than the average riffian and 3/4 of my ancestry is riffian.

"muh quadroon" yes that's why I'm similar to ancient berbers :


Target: Alazair
Distance: 2.9501% / 0.02950090
46.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
12.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 Yoruba
5.0 Levant_Natufian
1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 WHG

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche
Distance: 1.8302% / 0.01830177
41.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
33.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian
9.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 Levant_Natufian
6.4 Yoruba
1.4 WHG

Respect (until you try to steal my property or rape a female member of my family).



And ancient moors weren't "whiter" they have always been described as "dark" :
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.261-262

I didn't say they were "whiter." White is a social construct. You're not arguing with me when you say that. You're arguing with the person in your head that you consistently use to represent me. It's easier to argue with someone you made up in your head than it is me.



Anyway do not try to find excuses, you got severely defeated by peasants who were by far less better equipped than your spaniards "conscripts" only France could save Spain's Honor.


Discussing a topic in detail isn't making excuses. I apologize that my understanding of the conflict is greater than just reading Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't, however, know what to call claiming victory when your side lost (Spanish territory regained and El Krim surrendering). You're free to argue with military historians on what constitutes a victory and a loss.





Indeed you should watch it again it shows exactly what I said.

I suspect you heard what you wanted to hear. That appears to be a pattern with you. I may watch it again later.



Indeed they aren't typical they were the poorest of all moroccans. And most moroccan recruits in the spanish army weren't even from the Rif...

The Rif Berbers had a reputation for being warriors; that is factual. It's also factual that Rif tribal leaders were given money by the Spanish to have access to their men as soldiers, but then stopped, which was a motivating factor.


Google ? I have a whole collection of books on my region + many books in pdf do not project your case pls as I said you're not at my level regarding this topic.

Yes, google. What I do is spot patterns. Just yesterday I caught a poster here copying and pasting from 4 different sources on reddit, and passing it as his own. I know morons when I meet them. You are a moron. You're responding to a quote of me talking about the conflicts I mentioned. You just learned about them recently and you did google the information because you gave the number of 35,000 Spaniards versus 1,500 Rif Berbers. That's an uncited source on the Wikipedia page for the 1909 campaign. So, yeah, you did google. You do google.

There is nothing wrong with googling information, obviously, but don't talk like you know about a subject better than me when you're the one researching at the moment.


"muh low IQ " yeah ok don't you have something concrete to help your case ?

I did throughout my entire response but, unfortunately, your low IQ gets in your way. I got into the details. You can't.


Nope most of them didn't fight in your armies not all moroccans are riffians and not all north moroccans are riffians.

Yes, most of them did. I never said all Moroccans are Riffians or all North Moroccans are Rifians. You're arguing with the person you invented in your head to represent me in your head instead of me.





Most soldiers and losses were not moroccans + Moroccans were literally elite troops and like I said one of his best general was also moroccan so it's not just "mercenaries" but a well integrated and key element of Franco's army.

I see you're ignorant of mathematics. Remember when I mentioned the word proportion? Obviously, most losses wouldn't be Moroccans because the Spanish Nationalists were the far larger group. It's simple math.

Here we see Moroccans were thrown into the front repeatedly and suffered extremely high casualties, as I said they were:


The disproportionate deployment of Moroccan Regular soldiers as vanguard
troops led to extremely high casualty rates: out of the 78,504 Moroccan troops who
fought for the ‘Nationalists’ during the Civil War, 11,500 were killed and 55,468
sustained injuries.3

You don't recklessly use your best soldiers, you moron, by putting them on the frontlines to repeatedly risk dying at high rates. Elite troops are used surgically. They're too valuable to risk by throwing them in the front lines. Napoleon never used his guard except in extreme cases.

Even today elite forces like the Green Berets and Navy Seals don't see as much action as conventional troops. The exception is Army Rangers (takes 2 months to train Army Rangers). It takes a great deal of time to train elite troops just to waste them. I could go on but this is a waste of time explaining what elite actually means in any era. The fact you use the word elite for 76,000 soldiers just shows how absolutely ignorant you are, and it's obnoxious. Elite units never get to that size, not even close. I get it: you want to be proud of a bunch of criminals who look like you. Unfortunately, they're just rapists and cannon fodder. The Moroccans were foreigners and so their lives didn't matter. The Spanish Republican army also did the same to the Lincoln Brigade because they too were foreigners.


Like France’s colonial soldiers, increased contact between Moroccans and Spaniards during the war saw a
gradual shift away from the image of Moroccans as barbarians to a more paternalistic vision of ‘grown children’ who needed to be cared for.21

It must be difficult for you to go from thinking 'Muh Moroccan bros wee elite soldiers!' to 'Oh, my Moroccan bros were viewed as grown children...'

I feel like I'm your daddy right now, tbh, except instead of a caring father I'm an abusive one.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0022009418778777



I did not deny any pacific union but you can't deny all the atrocities commited by these savages of spaniards.

Once again, you're arguing with the person you invented in your head that is supposed to represent me. Read my post again. I didn't deny there were atrocities. I was correcting your ignorance.


As for the Islamic slave trade why do you talk about things you barely know anything about ? Most men were not castrated and overall slaves were better treated than the ones who lived under european's rule :

If Blacks were better treated by the Islamic slave trade then why isn't there a large Black population in the Arab and North African world? We still have our Blacks in significant numbers. Currently, Blacks are being sold as slaves in Libya.

But let's get into the history, or I should say your virtual bitch slapping again.



SCOPE OF THE TRADE
Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million peoples were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Africa across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara desert.[4][5][6][7] The term Arab when used in historical documents often represented an ethnic term, as many of the “Arab” slave traders, such as Tippu Tip and others, were physically indistinguishable from the “Africans” whom they enslaved and sold. Due to the nature of the Arab slave trade, it is impossible to be precise about actual numbers.[8][9][10]

The above is over many centuries. The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was estimated at about 12 million over a few centuries because Europeans eventually put an end to it. In fact, they (mostly British) put an end to much of the Islamic slave trade as well through threats. Although obviously it wasn't dealt with completely. Arabs are still selling Black slaves. As I said, it's happening in Libya as I write. I'm sure they're happy slaves as you imagine them.

Let's keep the party going:


The Arab slave trade in the Indian Ocean, Red Sea, and Mediterranean Sea long predated the arrival of any significant number of Europeans on the African continent.[36][45][/B]
Some descendants of African slaves brought to the Middle East during the slave-trade still live there today, and are aware of their African origins. The number of descendants was limited as men were castrated by their Arab masters to be eunuchs in domestic service.[29][46]


In contrast to the Atlantic slave trade, where the male-female ratio was 2:1 or 3:1, the Arab slave trade instead usually had a higher female-to-male ratio. This suggests a general preference for female slaves. Concubinage and reproduction served as incentives for importing female slaves (often Caucasian), though many were also imported mainly for performing household tasks.[50]

There is that word: concubinage. Do you remember it? I said that in the Americas there was an incentive for native women to be concubines because children with higher status men meant benefits to the children. These women were living in a society that had been devastated by disease and had another culture imposed on them but they weren't slaves.

The woman your ancestors took as slaves were taken out of their society and were forced into servitude and what happened to their children? I know much of the Americas are Mestizo, while modern North Africans have more SSA than their ancestors it should be higher considering the amounts of SSAs that were brought north into slavery. What happened to these people? What happened to the children, dude?

The European women, though, did much better because they were prized. They're still prized today considering how often your people try to rape them.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-tcc-worldciv2/chapter/transsaharan-slave-trade/


same for european slaves :

Remember when I said you were low IQ? I repeat myself again. You are low IQ. You referenced a personal account. There are a number of personal stories that are the opposite of your happy tale, and you're so dumb you don't consider that the plight of European women who were enslaved. I'm not aware of any women writing their personal accounts with the Barbary pirates. I'm sure they didn't end up with your ancestor pressing down and slobbering over them. No, of course. They just disappeared from history.






and there is no increase in SSA, guanches plot with modern NAs, the copper age samples plot with people like saharawis, mozabites, etc + 3rd century AD north africans plot with modern north africans (we see the same pattern when it comes to anthropological datas)

They're going to plot near each other because the similarities are far greater than the differences. The ancient Guanches do have less SSA than modern day West North Africans. Ancient Egyptians also have less SSA than modern Egyptians. You don't understand what you're looking at.


You see as 90% of iberians I've met you can't resist in trying to whitewash our ancestors thanks for confirming the "assumptions" I had.

Saying they have more SSA now than they did centuries ago is white washing? They still have significant SSA. You confirmed to me again that you're arguing with someone in your head that represents me instead of me. You literally made an assumption based on what you wanted to hear instead of what I said.


Again I didn't say I don't condemn it or take pride in it ; it simply shows the absurdity reached by your own people. Literally letting foreigners raping your own women because of political conflicts...

No, you're were quite joyous. Letting Leftists be raped by savages, as your people were and still are viewed, is a form of punishment.


Of course you can't understand with your individualistic mindset you dindu nuffin and these women aren't your sisters so who cares ?

What are you talking about? Once again, your low IQ shines. I literally said in a previous post that I don't view it as right whether the person is a Leftist or not to subjugate them to savagery. In other words, I showed compassion to the women who went through those horrors at the hands of those savages. Explaining why it happened doesn't diminish my compassion.

The 'dindu nuffin' meme applies to people who commit a crime and deny it. I don't know why you would think it applies to me other than your low IQ strikes again.


You think moroccans would have bring spanish mercenaries to rape their own women because of muh communism ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I laughed harder. Imagine thinking the average Spaniard is inclined to rape. I can't stop laughing. Did you see how unlikely Spanish immigrants in Germany are to rape in a previous post where I revealed Moroccan - well North African - criminality? Those low crime statistics follow Spaniards where ever they go and at home.

This is what I said:


It would be accepted in North Africa because those same criminal Moroccan mercenaries did so because they were taught by the Spanish Nationalists that the Communists were atheists (infidels). They would have done the same thing to Moroccan Communists. There is an article interviewing these criminals and that's what they said. I don't care to look for it. You can easily find it by googling.


Rape and mindless violence are your nature and if you give people whose nature is to be rapey and mindlessly violent they will do so. All you have to do is direct them towards 'infidels' and watch, whether they're Spanish or Moroccan Communists. They literally said why they behaved the way they did. Although that's just an excuse. Sociopaths will always look for an excuse.



Again IQ ? Are you insecure about something or maybe is it some kind of superiority complex ? If you really want to know I got once 114 and the last time 115 so I'm well above the european average let alone Spain. Anyway you're probably 2X times my age and you still can't really rivalize with me.

That would make you a genius among your people. Did you get that result online? If so then subtract 10 points. If you want I can administer the test to you. I'm qualified to do so. Do you have google duo? It'll be fun. I can get a closer look at your stupidity.

I had a good chuckle. Yes, I 'trivalize' you, and for good reason. I'm very impressed with your 115 IQ and I say that with, um, no sarcasm at all. None whatsoever.


You pretend I don't understand you but that's simply projecting since you do not understand any of my implicit answers I always have to go into detail with you like with a retard.

You're supposed to do what I do, which is go into detail. Your so called 'implicit answers' are just you not knowing the subject matter well enough (and often you're wrong; a number of examples in your response). That gave me a good laugh. It's expected, however.

[Alazair]

The fact Iberian posters who have done their 3rd party ancestry test revealing NA ancestry and have no issue undermines your claim. You can go on and on about "but.. but.. Iberians say this in other places I've been on the internet" isn't evidence because it comes from you: someone who is pushing that narrative to your own benefit. In other words, you can't be trusted because of your bias. A rational person wouldn't trust me either because they can argue that I also have a bias except, as I said, I can post examples of a number Iberians openly showing their 3rd party genetic results revealing their NA admixture without issue.

??? I can also show the opposite...

I was talking based on my experience or else I would have no reason to obsess like this over a bunch of idiots.








He says he's Spanish. I guess he must have revealed to you he was the banned Portuguese poster Luso.

I have checked his posting history. He is obsessed. For you to say the opposite after supposedly looking at his posting history either means you haven't done so, or you're simply incapable of being honest.

His most recent thread:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357912-The-Truth-about-Iberians

Here he's clearly trolling yes but usually his questions are genuine when it comes to certain topics.





What I've shown is a dislike of modern North Africans because of your criminality. What does your cousin robbing a liquor store or raping a woman have to do with historical events? Nothing. It's about protecting people in 2022.

When it comes to historical people, I view them in their time and place. It doesn't mean I approve of what they did, or don't think what they did was wrong, but I understand the values of the time period were different. What Cromwell did to the Irish was horrible but his behavior - although more brutal than what would even be typical of the time - is still within the moral framework of how people were at that time.

Some cultures evolve, fortunately, but others have not. Why would I want to live with a population whose culture hasn't evolved to accept better values? I knew a guy in the Netherlands. He enjoys going to the beach with his metal detector. The Dutch kids are curious and ask questions. The North African kids hassle him. They kick water at him. They are bothersome. There is a cultural difference, which one can argue is a consequence of a difference in intelligence.

Again this is based on generalizations and when it comes to my person and my family we're not concerned by what you're talking about. Your babbling about "values" is complete rubbish since I don't see which values you have and we don't. Should I really remind you that we all condemn criminality and hate these criminals too ? Anyway your hatred obviously doesn't come from "criminality" that's simply a pretext for a more deeper and I'd say "racial" hatred that comes from a long history of fear and alienation.








You're so dumb you can't even see the obvious: BOTH Moroccan immigrants and their offspring in Denmark are a problem. It's just that the offspring are far worse. Look at it again:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png/528px-Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png

Compare between groups, you dumb fuck. It's right in front of you. It's literally right there. No one can be this stupid.

What I see is that moroccans aren't at the top and the ones who were born in Europe are doing much more crime why is that so ? :rolleyes: And which fraction of the moroccan diaspora do such people represent ?



Your studies are 'liberal' nonsense with a number of fallacies, which I will show you:

1) If it's the fault of the justice system discriminating against your people then why is it that murder and rapes are also high? It's not just some types of crimes. It's all types of crimes. A murder is a murder, whether it's done by a German or a Moroccan. The Morrocan may get more prison time for it but that's irrelevant to how often that group commits murder.

2) There are more Chinese living in Germany than Moroccans. How is it that racial minorities like the Chinese don't have such high crime rates? The disparity in crime between Chinese and Moroccans living in Germany is huge. In fact, the Chinese in many of the categories commit fewer crimes than the German population.

Chinese Pop


Moroccan Pop


It indicates it's not racism. People from one culture behave themselves. People from the other do not.

This part of your quote (why did you pretty much put the entire quote in bold?) amused me the most:



Typical 'liberal' nonsense. Trying to pass off criminal behavior on feeling, like, you know, sad and stuff because society doesn't like them... boo-hooo... boo-hoo. Funny how other ethnic groups that look drastically different from the majority population don't lash out and are productive citizens.

This also amused me because it reminds me of here in the US with Blacks:



I want to know the severity of the crime. An assault is an assault but there is a difference between someone being bloodied and someone who has been beaten unconscious, for example. On this, I can only refer to Black juvenile criminals in the US who are also more likely to be detained and to go to jail than Whites. The reason is the crime is typically much more brutal.

1) The propensity to commit murders might be influenced by factors which do not impact native dutch people and your reasoning still doesn't make the system less strict in regards to moroccan offenders.

2) You assume both communities come from similar backgrounds/contexts ? Are impacted by similar factors ? Also why don't you ask yourself why chinese do less crime than native germans ?

The quote I posted brought a large array of factors which aren't about "racism". The quote that makes you laugh isn't about criminals only but about a general feeling among the youth and as for productive citizens wtf are you talking about ? Again with your generalizations ? There are tons of dutch-moroccans who succeeded and obviously most moroccans there are decent citizens.









I did look at the numbers:

1,152 from combat
2, 888 from disease

Moroccan losses were estimated at 6,000. "But... but... technology!" Okay, the Moroccan government is full of retards who can't acquire technology because they're dumb and backward. So backward they can't even document their own casualties accurately. It has to be estimated because of incompetence. Spaniards were picking on low IQ weaklings: that's terrible.

Funny enough you didn't say what were their goals. I'll tell you because you may have simply forgotten: to end Rifian attacks on Spanish settlements and to be compensated for damaged done by those marauders because it was the Moroccan government's responsibility to keep their people behaving and they didn't. The consequence was a spanking.

Spaniards were awarded the following:

The Moroccan government agreed to do something about the Rif Berbers and pay 20,000, 000 in compensation.

The objective was made clear and the objective was met. The Spaniards didn't leave Tétouan until they were paid.

I checked four books and none give numbers of deaths + the spanish presence was clearly disproportionate 44K soldiers + 14 ships all of this against two regiments of cavalry and a few volunteers from the local tribes around Ceuta. You're also either dishonest or totally ignorant about their goals : the books I have talk about a situation where Spain started to feel overwhelmed by the french and english initiatives in Morocco and that it had been a long time since Spain didn't win any war therefore used any pretext to start a war with their neighbour and get a slice of the cake.

The "riffians attack" you mention are : one spanish agent "Darmon" being killed in el Jadida (that's not the Rif), one ship "San Jose" being taken by riffian pirates and the destruction of a fort near Ceuta by a local tribe (not riffian) ...even the authors said they were simply weak casus belli used to "redorer le Blason" of Spain.








The number of Moroccans involved is unknown. Your Wikipedia reference is not cited. All the Spanish troops were conscripts, and they subdued most of the tribes. Remember, these are colonial wars. It's almost as if you're blaming me for Morocco's lowly national position. They're just peasants, you say. No, they're not. They're hardier warriors than other Moroccans. They've done far better than other Moroccans.

Literally my 4 books on Morocco's history don't even mention these "campaigns" this is quite telling tbh now I understand why I didn't know much about them.




I didn't say they were glorious. I literally said Spaniards were beating up on weaker people. I said receiving medals for bravery in combat is to be commended, whether it's against civilized people or savages.

At this point it's just cringe let's be honest...




Spain controls Moroccan land. They've done so for 6 centuries. Tell me more about that supposed domination...

Spain never really controlled "moroccan land" they were constantly harassed and always needed the help of other european allies.

hahaha "6 centuries" what are you smoking ? Ah yes two enclaves and a few inhabited rocks XD Meanwhile north africans controlled large swathes of territories in Iberia for at least 1000 years if we go even before al andalus.








You're so mad that you ignored me stating how they had Spanish arms and were trained by the Spaniards. I went into the specifics.

This is simply false, you confuse random moroccan conscripts with riffians. Stop finding excuses.




They helped end the war quicker but Moroccans weren't going to win that war. If you think that, then you're more ignorant of military matters than I thought.

And you said you weren't biased ....

Again I invite people to read anything on it or to watch the video I posted we clearly see how spain was losing control over the region and only the combined action of two colonial powers saved their case.






It's like I'm talking to a child: he lost at the end. Abd el-Krim died in captivity. Spain regained its colonial territory. You lost. Franco's Legion crushed you.

He lost against France and because of their actions against civilians (literally the first chemical weapons used against civilians) certainly not spaniards wtf. Iberians have always been inferior to north africans when it comes to warfare that's a constant in History.








I didn't say they were "whiter." White is a social construct. You're not arguing with me when you say that. You're arguing with the person in your head that you consistently use to represent me. It's easier to argue with someone you made up in your head than it is me.

What am I supposed to understand with "quadroon" "not the same" "slave trade" ....that they stayed the same ?





Discussing a topic in detail isn't making excuses. I apologize that my understanding of the conflict is greater than just reading Encyclopedia Britannica. I don't, however, know what to call claiming victory when your side lost (Spanish territory regained and El Krim surrendering). You're free to argue with military historians on what constitutes a victory and a loss.

I never denied any of this I actually pointed out that France is behind this victory.





Yes, google. What I do is spot patterns. Just yesterday I caught a poster here copying and pasting from 4 different sources on reddit, and passing it as his own. I know morons when I meet them. You are a moron. You're responding to a quote of me talking about the conflicts I mentioned. You just learned about them recently and you did google the information because you gave the number of 35,000 Spaniards versus 1,500 Rif Berbers. That's an uncited source on the Wikipedia page for the 1909 campaign. So, yeah, you did google. You do google.

There is nothing wrong with googling information, obviously, but don't talk like you know about a subject better than me when you're the one researching at the moment.

And it's totally justified since none of my books mention them only two of them talk about the "war" of 1859 and only on 2-3 pages. Only spaniards boast about insignificant and unknown "battles" in North Africa because historically spaniards have always been military dominated by north africans and that's factual.









If Blacks were better treated by the Islamic slave trade then why isn't there a large Black population in the Arab and North African world? We still have our Blacks in significant numbers. Currently, Blacks are being sold as slaves in Libya.

But let's get into the history, or I should say your virtual bitch slapping again.



The above is over many centuries. The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was estimated at about 12 million over a few centuries because Europeans eventually put an end to it. In fact, they (mostly British) put an end to much of the Islamic slave trade as well through threats. Although obviously it wasn't dealt with completely. Arabs are still selling Black slaves. As I said, it's happening in Libya as I write. I'm sure they're happy slaves as you imagine them.

Let's keep the party going :





There is that word: concubinage. Do you remember it? I said that in the Americas there was an incentive for native women to be concubines because children with higher status men meant benefits to the children. These women were living in a society that had been devastated by disease and had another culture imposed on them but they weren't slaves.

Numbers are meaningless they were still far better treated than among europeans. As your quote shows only the ones destined to be eunuchs were castrated and you also seem to think such practice was applied everywhere and any time period. These "concubines" when they bear the children of their masters became "oum al walad " and therefore a freedwoman (her child wasn't considerate a slave or freedman/woman) see how much more humane it was in contrast to your case ? I hope you're at least aware most of these slaves were not captured by north africans but by the local black muslims and sold by them ...










The woman your ancestors took as slaves were taken out of their society and were forced into servitude and what happened to their children? I know much of the Americas are Mestizo, while modern North Africans have more SSA than their ancestors it should be higher considering the amounts of SSAs that were brought north into slavery. What happened to these people? What happened to the children, dude?

The European women, though, did much better because they were prized. They're still prized today considering how often your people try to rape them.

They don't :



The good conservation level of the Puna Azul allowed us to analyzed nuclear STR markers on the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands for the first time. The STR profile of Punta Azul is not significantly different from modern samples from Marocco. These results are in agreement with previous ancient DNA analysis pointing out the tight relationship of the aboriginal people of the Canary Islands and North Africa (Fregel, 2010). Giving the fixation of H1-16260 lineage in Punta Azul, one striking result was the STR diversity obtained for Punta Azul is similar to modern population of Morocco.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686



Regarding the origin of El Hierro aboriginal population, Slatkin-linearized Fst distances based on autosomal STR are congruent with a great similarity of the Bimbapes with Berbers from Morocco, and a significant differentiation from Europe. This result is in accordance to previous archaeological, linguistic and genetic evidence about the Berber origin of aboriginal people. One of the most outstanding archaeological remains from El Hierro consists of a series of lybicberber inscriptions, clearly related with the ancient North African Berber's inscriptions

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440316301686



The MMD analysis indicates that the Canary Island sample is most similar to the four samples from Northwest Africa: the Shawia Berbers, Kabyle Berbers, Bedouin Arabs and Carthaginians, less similar to the three Egyptian samples and least like the three Nubian samples.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018442X04700153



Furthermore, these latter populations are more closely related to QCP than to people from Western Europe and the Caucasus. The admixture analysis confirms the similarity of North African human groups with QCP. Archaeological evidence could be consistent with at least a cultural impact of Northern African people on the individuals buried in QCP. Indeed, several personal goods recovered in the necropolis and funeral architectures seem to wire the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea to QCP.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03014460.2021.1944313



Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras (14) in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusters with modern and ancient North Africans in the PCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCE Moroccans (8), can be well modeled as having ancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans (15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 and S10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparental markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique among Copper Age Iberians, including individuals from sites with many analyzed individuals such as Sima del Ángel, and point to a North African origin.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230




The most surprising is Sardinia_Chalcolithic15940 from the site of Anghelu Ruju, for whom we obtained a radiocarbon date of 2345– 2146 cal. bc from the same bone sample that we analysed for DNA. We modelled this individual as 22.7±2.4% Anatolia_Neolithic and 77.3±2.4% Morocco_EN (P=0.321). This individual is similar in ancestry composition to the approximately contemporary Iberian individual I4246 from the site of Camino de las Yeseras, radiocarbon dated to 2473–2030 cal. bc, who also had North-African related ancestry as well as the same mtDNA haplogroup M1a1b1 and Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b1, which are both typical of North Africans25 (Supplementary Table 14). The finding of African to-European gene flow in both individuals shows that such movement was widespread across the Mediterranean long before the classical period when such gene flow became intensive and the ancestries had a larger demographic impact.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_Fernandes_NatEcolEvol_WestMediterranean_0.pdf


European women were prized because of the difficulty to get them idiot meanwhile I can't take you seriously your women literally are brown med and don't look much different from MENA women to begin with.


Reality is european women kept harassing noble moroccan diplomats :



Ahmad and his companions stayed at the nobleman’s house for weeks. Every day, he wrote, the host’s daughter, the “girl,” dressed up beautifully and sat with him. Looking for a way to spend more time with him, she offered to teach him ifranji/French. Ahmad consented and became her diligent pupil. As a result, she started hosting his companions in order to show the dignity in which she held him. And so he fell in love with her: and “love grew between us so much that I was distraught by it,” distraught because the woman clearly tried to tempt him—a temptation that he compared to Satan’s of the human spirit.Ahmad did not describe how the girl tried to seduce him. Such description was not congruent with the hurma he had to maintain in regard to his host’s honor. But she became so persistent that the only way hecould resist her was by escaping into the garden for long walks. His friends, meanwhile, urged him on, but Ibn Qasim refused, explaining angrily that the woman was haraam to him. For he was, he stated, like a fighter in a jihad at the frontier with the enemy, and the enemy often used such women to distract the fighter, not necessarily from a military as much as a spiritual jihad toward religious perfection. “Satan,” he warned, “used these unveiled harim to incite us to sin.”154 He invoked his companions to overcome their desire for the muharramat/proscribed women, telling them that if they indulgedfor a little bit, they would inevitably fall into haraam.155 As a later writer confirmed, “True piety is to steer the eye away from the visually forbidden (al- maharim) . . . such as women who are strangers [ajnabiyyat].” 156

Nabil Matar, Europe through Arab Eyes, pp. 107-108




The Magharibi did not initially know what to make of such situations, but they wrote about the meetings in an accurate and careful manner, revealing an attitude toward European women that was very different from the European attitude toward Muslim women. Contrary to what numerous Orientalists have claimed, and as Edward Said confirmed, “Islamic travelers to the West” did not “usually speak of lascivious [Christian] women.”149 Rather, Western Muslims were respectful and poised but also bewildered in their interactions with the women—as current European newspaper accounts about them firmly confirmed.

Nabil Matar, Europe through Arab Eyes, pp. 106




"After all, the Arab visitor did not seem to confirm the lustful uncontrollability of “Moors” and “Turks” that plays and novels depicted. To the princess’s surprise, the Moroccan Muslim was not only dignifi ed in the presence of European women but also deeply faithful to his family. My love, he told the princess, “is adamantly fixed on my wife (as strong as a rock), and on my three boys and three girls. In all my life, I have never caused her any pain.” The princess pressed him about how he could resist the French women around him. He replied: “When I see young women, I treat them as my daughters; when I see older women, I treat them as my sisters; and when I see very beautiful women, I pray to God.”174 He was so composed that one woman told him she had never met a man as polite and gallant as he was. “But madam,” he replied, “after a man enters a perfumery [France], he cannot leave without some fragrance adhering to him.”175 Later, in his correspondence with Madam Jourdan, at Elite Sources 113whose house he had stayed, Ibn ?Aisha repeatedly mentioned the mahabba/love he felt for her. He had enjoyed meeting her, sitting on the sofa with her daughters in his lap, and eating with her family at the table: “I know full well, Madam, that you do not forget me, and all that I have in my heart, you have put there. May God bring us together in this world. Learn too that my daughters have made you the center of their conversations wherever they are.”176After his return to Morocco, Ibn ?Aisha’s womenfolk sent presents to Mrs. Jourdan and her daughters, as tokens of their mahabba"

Nabil Matar, Europe through Arab Eyes, pp. 112-113







Remember when I said you were low IQ? I repeat myself again. You are low IQ. You referenced a personal account. There are a number of personal stories that are the opposite of your happy tale, and you're so dumb you don't consider that the plight of European women who were enslaved. I'm not aware of any women writing their personal accounts with the Barbary pirates. I'm sure they didn't end up with your ancestor pressing down and slobbering over them. No, of course. They just disappeared from history.

wait are you confusing us with your own people ? and Are you at least aware "barbary pirates" were actually european ?



Alongside transportation limitations, fear of captivity was another factor that militated against travel and familiarity.40 From the initial attacks on the North African coast by Portuguese pirates and navies in the fifteenth century, and throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the Iberians, the French, the British, the Maltese, and the Italians were active in the seizure of men, women, and children for domestic and transatlantic slavery. In the Spanish attack on Oran in 1511, four thousand Muslims were killed and more than eight thousand taken captive; and in the attack on Tripoli in July of the year after, the Christians took more than fi fteen thousand captives.41 In the “black years” of 1521–1522, nearly sixty thousand Moroccans were seized and deported to Eu rope;42 and after repulsing Charles V in his attempt on Algiers in 1541, thousands of slaves were liberated, some originating in “the Maghrib [Morocco], some in Algiers and some in Tunis.”43 In the fi rst three de cades of the sixteenth century, according to Ahmad Bu Sharab’s extensive study of the Portuguese Inquisition rec ords, there were more than one hundred thousand captives and slaves in the country;44 there was a similar number in Spain in that century.45 Captivity was a danger that the Magharibi continued to face well into the eigh teenth century (see translation #15).

Nabil Matar, Europe through Arab Eyes, pp. 13



Europeans needed slaves, and women captured from the Islamic regions were spared to fulfill that need.145 Most often they were quickly baptized—in order for the pious Catholic conquistadors and their theologians to justify enslaving them. A list of Muslim female captives who were baptized in Rome includes Tunisians (one of whom was a puella/little girl), Constantinopolitans, Mauritanians, Bosnians, Dalmatians, along with girls and women from all over the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts: Mostar, Tripoli, Morea, Coron, Chios, Aleppo, and Salé. Their ages ranged from seven to sixty.146 Captured children were converted and assimilated—without retaining remembrance of their families or histories—much like the devshirme in the Ottoman Empire (although that was abolished in the seventeenth century). It is perhaps in reaction to such vast assimilation of captured North Africans that Iberians would later proclaim “purity of blood” as a criterion for true, unsullied Spanishness. Both the Ottomans and the European Christians relied on abduction to bolster the numbers of captives needed for military, naval, and domestic services. And while European travelers repeatedly denounced the Ottomans for taking Christian children, they did not rebuke their coreligion- ists for similar seizure of Muslims.

Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 62





In 1471 the Portuguese attacked Asila and carried more than five thousand of its inhabitants into slavery.140 Al- Tazi, a contemporary poet (d. 1514), described the plight of the captives as they were dragged away by their Iberian captors, at the same time that he called on his countrymen for action and for avenging the desecration that had befallen the slaves: If your eyes had seen how they left, you would have wept blood Mothers were separated from their children, and husband from wife Their tears streamed down their cheeks, for the loss of those they loved The veil was taken away from the virgin, revealing all her beauty and charm And the enemy stared at her beauty, while her tears accompanied her moans . . .

Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 61





The captains, known as "barbarians", especially the most famous of them, the two Barbarossa brothers whose exploits have given rise to sinister chronicles and legends, were not Moors from Africa, but all or almost all Turks and renegade Christians. The warriors, the janissaries in particular, came from the Mediterranean Levant, from the countries conquered by the Turks in the Balkans, and the crews of the ships, the oarsmen of the galleys, were, for the most part, slaves, also Christians, captured at sea or on the coasts of Spain and Italy.

Les Barbaresques by Jacques Heers, p. 8



Their sailors and men-at-arms were, for many and often for the most part, from the Balkans - Albania especially - or from the recently subjugated Genoese and Venetian islands: renegades or taken by force and abducted at a very young age, torn from their families

Les Barbaresques by Jacques Heers, p. 68






They're going to plot near each other because the similarities are far greater than the differences. The ancient Guanches do have less SSA than modern day West North Africans. Ancient Egyptians also have less SSA than modern Egyptians. You don't understand what you're looking at.

They don't they are in the north african range of SSA and the copper age samples actually have more SSA. Ancient egyptians didn't have less SSA that's simply an assumption based on 3 samples from the same place + egyptians aren't representative of Berbers.






Saying they have more SSA now than they did centuries ago is white washing? They still have significant SSA. You confirmed to me again that you're arguing with someone in your head that represents me instead of me. You literally made an assumption based on what you wanted to hear instead of what I said.

They don't have more SSA that's the problem and north africans always had such type of ancestry Iberomaurusians can literally be modelled as 30-54% SSA. Also "blacks" have always been a reality in North Africa and actually lived much more north than today :


"As early as the beginning of our era, Strabo (II, 2, 3) had asserted, according to Posidonius (circa 100 B.C.), that the people of the Silphium region, in the interior of Cyrenaica, had kinky hair, prominent lips, and blunt noses."



Islands of Ethiopian settlement must have existed in Roman times in the south of present-day Tunisia. Ptolemy (IV, 7, 10, p. 785) mentions well in the west of sub-Egyptian Ethiopia, beyond the arid sands, Ethiopians Nygbenitae, who are apparently similar to the Nygbeni of which he mentions (IV, 3, 6, p. 642) in the southeast of the province of Africa. Now this tribe is known, under the form Nybgenii*, with a common consonant metathesis, by boundary markers of the reign of Trajan found south of the chott el-Fedjedj (CIL, VIII, 22786 e; 22787; 22788). Immediately before the Tidamensii (for Cidamensii, or inhabitants of Cidamus, present-day Ghadames) and the Nygbeni, Ptolemy mentions the Erebidae or "sons of Erebus" or "sons of darkness", whom he certainly designates as such because of a very dark complexion. Let us also recall that in the coalition of the tribes originating from the South-Tunisian or Tripolitan that had to face, in the VIth century of our era, the Byzantine general Jean Troglita, Corippus (Ioh., VI, 92-95) reports fighters of a black raven.

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/877


Two testimonies, five centuries apart, prove that the Saharan edges of Caesarian Mauritania were, at least partially, populated by Ethiopians. According to a fragment of Appian (Num., 5), Bocchus I, in 105 B.C., affected to recruit soldiers among the Ethiopians neighboring his kingdom which extended westward to the Atlas of Mauritania (the Moroccan Atlas). On the other hand, in 374 after J.-C. the count Theodosius had to face, according to Ammien Marcellin (XXIX, 5, 34), far in the south of Auzia (Sour Ghozlane) of the mountain dwellers established near Ethiopians. One will bring this indication closer to a passage of Claudian (IVth consulate of Honorius, 34-35) which praises Theodosius to have traversed the deserts of Ethiopia and surrounded the Atlas. It thus appears evident that Ethiopian populations were established on the slopes of the Saharan Atlas.

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/877


Moreover, Pomponius Mela (III, 96) locates in the territory of the Hesperii a river Nu(c)ul or Nunc, which is probably, as we have already said, the oued Noun (oued Noul in the Middle Ages). It is probably in the Sous that one must locate the Perorsi considered by Pliny (V, 10, 16 and 43) as Ethiopians. The Ethiopian Daratitae (Pliny, V, 10) lived at the mouth of the Wadi Draa, while the Betuli, the Darae (Id., ibid.), lived on the upper reaches of this river. It thus appears that Ethiopian settlement was concentrated on the ocean shore south of Cape Rhir.

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/877


Do not forget that the moors were known and described as "dark skinned" if not black in some cases like with isidore of sevilla. See this also :


Is the immigration of various allogens to Africa offset by the emigration of Africans to Italy or other provinces? The question is difficult because the documentation is scattered and often collective. In working-class circles, Africans are often rejected because of ...the dark color of their skin, which seems to be an ominous sign.

Jean-Marie Lassère, Africa quasi Roma, p. 274


That's why I laugh at these people who think north africans looked like south europeans or were lighter than the "quadroons" of today.






I laughed harder. Imagine thinking the average Spaniard is inclined to rape. I can't stop laughing. Did you see how unlikely Spanish immigrants in Germany are to rape in a previous post where I revealed Moroccan - well North African - criminality? Those low crime statistics follow Spaniards where ever they go and at home.

hahah thanks for contradicting yourself ...you just admitted the horrors in America didn't you ? "not inclined to rape" HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Friends of Oliver Society]

??? I can also show the opposite...

I was talking based on my experience or else I would have no reason to obsess like this over a bunch of idiots.

I already addressed this in detail. Do not respond if you have nothing new to say.



Here he's clearly trolling yes but usually his questions are genuine when it comes to certain topics.

His questions are not genuine. That is obvious to anyone who looks through his posting history.

Once again, do not respond if you have nothing new to say.




Again this is based on generalizations and when it comes to my person and my family we're not concerned by what you're talking about.

Yes, it's obvious that you're concerned with the crime of your people and apparently neither are your family members.


Your babbling about "values" is complete rubbish since I don't see which values you have and we don't.

The difference in high crime rates reveals the difference in values. There is a cultural difference in values between groups with drastically different criminal rates.


Should I really remind you that we all condemn criminality and hate these criminals too ?

So do many in the Black community in the US. It doesn't change the fact that 13% commits 50% of violent crime. There is a clear indication that there is a problem in your community.


Anyway your hatred obviously doesn't come from "criminality" that's simply a pretext for a more deeper and I'd say "racial" hatred that comes from a long history of fear and alienation.

My hatred clearly comes from your people's criminality otherwise why would I always defend Palestinians? Most of them are Muslims. Like you, they're referred to as Arabs. I have a great deal of respect for the Palestinian people, especially Christian Palestinians who have a very high education level. Look up my thread called "Ben Shapiro's Zionism Debunked." I made that video.

btw, prejudice doesn't come from fear or alienation. That was a nonsense argument made by Adorno from the Frankfurt School. Studies have shown that prejudice comes from a feeling of disgust towards the other group. Do racists actually sound they're scared? No, they spew disgust for others. I wouldn't have an issue with Moroccans - as a group - if they weren't such a social problem.


What I see is that moroccans aren't at the top and the ones who were born in Europe are doing much more crime why is that so ? :rolleyes: And which fraction of the moroccan diaspora do such people represent ?

What I see is what everyone else seems: an ethnic group that is highly criminal. What does it matter if there is some other group (Algerians appear to always be at the top in those German crime statistics I showed and there isn't much difference between the two groups). This is like saying, "Well, we only committed 7 murders, while this other group committed 8. We're not so bad." No, you're terrible because there are so many other groups that are far better.

What does it matter to Germans, French, Spaniards, Italians, etc. if the criminal is an immigrant or their offspring other than one can be deported? What matters is the criminal behavior and that it comes from a particular ethnic group. The criminal behavior among the Moroccan immigrant population as we saw with the statistic from Denmark is very high. That their children are even worse doesn't make the immigrant generation appear better. They're a both a problem and far more so than other immigrant groups in Germany.

"But... but... what is the percentage of Moroccan diaspora that this represents?" Are you retarded? Enough to be a significant fucking problem.


1) The propensity to commit murders might be influenced by factors which do not impact native dutch people and your reasoning still doesn't make the system less strict in regards to moroccan offenders.

Yeah, bro. Feeling marginalized just makes you want to murder, rape, and assault because, um, they're sad? I laughed at my own joke.


2) You assume both communities come from similar backgrounds/contexts ?

Did not whatsoever. Both immigrant populations arrived from lower economic status backgrounds. Look, dude. The Chinese immigrant shows the same pattern of behavior wherever they go: whether it's Europe, the US, Latin America. They're just not a problem, unlike your people.


Are impacted by similar factors ?

This is what people with no argument do. They throw questions but can't give substance. You're looking for excuses but are too ignorant about the topic and so you throw whatever vague questions you can. Why not ask me a specific question? What factors would impact Moroccans to make them more criminal than the Chinese? Why be vague? Throw me some ideas.


Also why don't you ask yourself why chinese do less crime than native germans ?

It's simple, it's culture. Are you trying to imply Germans are criminally oriented as an ethnic group? They're not. Chinese immigrants in Germany are less so but it's not like a drastic difference, dude. If you want to see a drastic difference, you look between Moroccans and Germans or Chinese.

I don't have time for this nonsense. I'm not spending more than 10 minutes after work on someone who is consistently both disingenuous and stupid.

Below is a good example of you being disingenuous or just too dumb to understand English.


(somethahah thanks for contradicting yourself ...you just admitted the horrors in America didn't you ? "not inclined to rape" HAHAHAHAHAHAH

No, I didn't contradict myself. I think it's more likely you're dumb. Pay attention:

I specifically said in this thread that everyone was savage in those days. I specifically said that I see people as products of their time and place. I specifically said that some cultures evolve and others don't in their values. I specifically said yours did not and the crime statistics reflect this reality. Spaniards - in 2022 - have very low crime rates, whether as immigrants or at home.

This was all clearly presented but your low IQ couldn't grasp it. Atrocities can mean a number of crimes (and obviously rape did happen, as they always happen, but concubinage was the norm) but your low IQ could only think of rape because your low IQ brain was desperate for a 'gotcha moment' except you ignored everything I have been saying because you are low IQ.

If you can't follow what I say then this is more than just a waste of my time.