Sorb discussion

[rothaer]

Yeah it seems that (going north-south) from Frankfurt/Oder to Görlitz (or even to Zittau) there are predominantly Slavs living on both sides of the border!

In genetic terms.

Roughly this area (which has over 1 million inhabitants - 1,221,260 according to German Wikipedia):

https://i.imgur.com/y0PW9j3.png

The genetic characteristics of this people is unclear and you just refer to these 1.2 million, because they are within Lusatia. The vast majority of these people even four and five centuries ago were no Sorbs. They might nevertheless have a notable Slavic-like genetic contribution, but as I said, quite all East Germans have this for known reasons anyhow.

As for languages: I've myself ancestors from Görlitz and Uppest Lusatia (Zittauer Zipfel). Ancestors in Görlitz are known back to 16th century and in Zittauer Zipfel back to 17th century and there is no Slavic language visible among them. Also the basically etymological German (however non-Slavic) surnames indicate German language for these people since 1350 minimum.

I mention them here:

Neumann, Köhler, Weber, Herzog, Michel, Just, Kahlert, Schneider, Puschmann, Tietz, Hauptmann, Schubert, Marx, Prescher, Christoph, Bundsmann, Möller, Schmied, Roscher, Clemens, Zöllner, Eiselt, Liebsche, Gulich, Zeisig, Stolle, Bräuer, Häber, Firle, Engler, Hachelberg, Lindenberg, Eichler, Zeller.

[Leto]

How many Sorbs are there left in Germany now?

[Russki]

Anyone has DNA samples of Sorbs?

Are they intermediate between Poles and Germans?

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/10328089f/493ed827/Shutterstock_10328089f.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KiD75r6mk-U/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.bautzen.de/fileadmin/_processed_/6/1/csm_Folklore-45_0c834680c7.jpg

[Lucas]

Results of Kamenz Sorbs in K36 for comparison. Lusatian _Sorbs is their average.





Distance to: s8
0.93380308 Lusatian_Sorbs
1.06417757 Hungarian_Northern
1.06672813 PL_Wielkopolska
1.12687464 PL_Kuyavia_&_SE_Pomerania
1.14726993 DE_Sachsen
1.15003143 Czech
1.18151858 PL_Kashubian
1.26669607 PL_Upper_Silesia
1.27950420 Slovakia_central
1.28108292 PL_Subcarpathia

Distance to: s7
1.13874624 Masurian
1.25894233 PL_Subcarpathia
1.27474553 PL_Kashubian
1.30955183 Belarus_Polesye
1.32744477 UKR_Prydniprovye
1.33174322 RU_Cossacks_Kuban
1.33699661 PL_Upper_Silesia
1.33726894 UKR_Zhytomyr
1.35020147 PL_Suwalki
1.36301293 RU_Smolensk

Distance to: s6
0.65059511 Masurian
0.80164491 PL_Kashubian
0.81354847 PL_Kuyavia_&_SE_Pomerania
0.86090325 Lusatian_Sorbs
0.93422000 Belarus_Polesye
0.94632065 PL_Upper_Silesia
0.94701688 PL_Malopolska
0.94888789 NE-Ostpreussen
0.95991289 Belarus_West
0.97335258 PL_Wielkopolska

Distance to: s5
0.71183790 Lusatian_Sorbs
0.75490997 Oberschlesien
0.76798742 Czech
0.79419324 Hungarian_Northern
0.79868636 DE_Sachsen
0.83348915 northern_Ostpreussen
0.91637243 Austria_Karnten
0.95109755 Slovakia_west
0.95654180 Pommern
0.96506580 DE_Brandenburg

Distance to: s4
1.12172046 Lusatian_Sorbs
1.17024594 NE-Ostpreussen
1.18163831 PL_Wielkopolska
1.22607767 PL_Kuyavia_&_SE_Pomerania
1.29602838 PL_Kashubian
1.32848978 DE_Sachsen
1.36200184 Neumark
1.36421341 Pommern
1.40592464 Czech
1.42665378 Slovakia_central

Distance to: s3
1.26832094 RU_Don_Cossack
1.33299458 NE-Ostpreussen
1.33381387 RU_Belgorod
1.34332730 PL_Lublin
1.35252948 Slovakia_central
1.35892844 UKR_Kiev
1.36962493 RU_Tver
1.37946183 PL_Wielkopolska
1.38043552 Ukraine_Podolia
1.38797127 UKR_Black_Sea_coast

Distance to: s2
1.07096154 Ukraine_Podolia
1.12536439 UKR_Donetsk
1.12858430 PL_Malopolska
1.19504646 PL_Lublin
1.19912598 PL_Kuyavia_&_SE_Pomerania
1.20834767 UKR_Kiev
1.21218855 Hungarian_Northern
1.21928139 UKR_Volhyn
1.22279900 Lusatian_Sorbs
1.22509053 UKR_Western

Distance to: s1
1.12924447 Oberschlesien
1.16156145 Lusatian_Sorbs
1.20266828 DE_Brandenburg
1.24601957 northern_Ostpreussen
1.32775332 Pommern
1.34290450 PL_Upper_Silesia
1.36238739 Hungarian_Northern
1.38242517 PL_Kashubian
1.41964855 DE_Sachsen-Anhalt
1.42139102 PL_Kuyavia_&_SE_Pomerania

[Jana]

Anyone has DNA samples of Sorbs?
Are they intermediate between Poles and Germans?

Distance to: Sorb

0.91372862 Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz
3.25868071 Upper_Silesia
3.28952884 Polish_South
3.32580817 Polish_Lesser_Poland
3.41367837 Polish_Greater_Poland
4.66282103 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
4.70422151 Czech
4.89182992 Polish_Silesia
5.10763155 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
5.22096734 Polish_Subcarpathia
5.22416501 German_West_Prussia
5.57266543 Polish_Kujavia
5.74609433 Slovak
5.85506618 Polish
6.05157831 German_Lower_Silesia
6.44893790 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.13325311 Polish_Mazovia
7.28457274 Ukrainian_South
7.29851355 Polish_Podlaskie
7.75561732 German_Farther_Pomerania
7.81752518 Ukrainian_Moldova
7.85799593 Ukrainian_Northwest
8.06015509 Ukrainian
8.13410720 Hungarian_North
8.14895085 Croat_Northwest

Distance to: Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz

0.91372862 Sorb
3.53583088 Upper_Silesia
4.07375748 Polish_South
4.08263395 Polish_Greater_Poland
4.13297714 Polish_Lesser_Poland
4.69565757 German_West_Prussia
4.69584923 Czech
5.08159424 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
5.24726595 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
5.75738656 Polish_Silesia
5.92264299 German_Lower_Silesia
5.99609873 Polish_Subcarpathia
6.00457326 Polish_Kujavia
6.04540321 Slovak
6.47704408 Polish
7.01055633 German_Farther_Pomerania
7.13856428 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.69845439 Polish_Podlaskie
7.88782606 Polish_Mazovia
8.06395064 Ukrainian_South
8.27452113 Croat_Northwest
8.32012019 Hungarian_North
8.51852100 Ukrainian_Moldova
8.62359554 Ukrainian_Northwest
8.76384048 Slovene

[Jana]

Target: Sorb
Distance: 0.8588% / 0.85876041 | R2P

79.9 Polish_Greater_Poland
20.1 German_Thuringia_Central

Target: Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz
Distance: 1.3811% / 1.38107391 | R2P

54.4 German_Thuringia_Central
45.6 Lithuanian

[rothaer]

How many Sorbs are there left in Germany now?

"According to official figures, there are around 60,000 Sorbs.[1] These figures are based on projections from the 1990s. On the basis of self-attribution, 45,000 to 50,000 Sorbs were determined, and on the basis of active language knowledge, approximately 67,000 Sorbs." (German Wikipedia)

It's remarkable that you actually have more people with active Sorb language knowledge than people self-identifying as Sorbs. Identifying as a Sorb is nothing negative in Germany, so these conditions are not easy to explain. Are there non-Sorbs learning Sorb language out of affection or are there Sorbs (inherited Sorb-speakers) that nevertheless identify as Germans? I guess the latter. Sorb (they all also speak German) is not really regarded an alien, non-German thing, but more a special condition of some Germans. It's somewhat resembling the condition that some Germans speak also low German or Frisian.

Unlike regarding Poles and Slovenes there were never notable political tensions between Sorbs and Germans. I guess this is because Sorbs are in Germany only (and not abroad), so there was never a question of political belonging.

[Leto]

"According to official figures, there are around 60,000 Sorbs.[1] These figures are based on projections from the 1990s. On the basis of self-attribution, 45,000 to 50,000 Sorbs were determined, and on the basis of active language knowledge, approximately 67,000 Sorbs." (German Wikipedia)

It's remarkable that you actually have more people with active Sorb language knowledge than people self-identifying as Sorbs. Identifying as a Sorb is nothing negative in Germany, so these conditions are not easy to explain. Are there non-Sorbs learning Sorb language out of affection or are there Sorbs (inherited Sorb-speakers) that nevertheless identify as Germans? I guess the latter. Sorb (they all also speak German) is not really regarded an alien, non-German thing, but more a special condition of some Germans. It's somewhat resembling the condition that some Germans speak also low German or Frisian.

Unlike regarding Poles and Slovenes there were never notable political tensions between Sorbs and Germans. I guess this is because Sorbs are in Germany only (and not abroad), so there was never a question of political belonging.
Nice, I thought the number would be lower. Maybe Serbs (from Serbia) could trigger their revival? ;) They prolly care about money as guest workers and nothing else. Unfortunately the BRD isn't particularly conducive to any forms of ethnic nationalism.

[Peterski]

The genetic characteristics of this people is unclear

We don't yet have any kits fully from there, besides Beeskow & Kamenz ???


and you just refer to these 1.2 million, because they are within Lusatia.

They are roughly today's Lusatia (G, F, E, D, C) and roughly Wendischer Distrikt of Brandenburgian Kurmark (A, B).

Not so long ago you criticized me for labelling Beeskow (which is located in A) as Lusatia, and now you claim it is... :)

This is now officially noted (your admitting that Beeskow / Kreis Oder-Spree is also within Lusatia).

=====

One important thing to consider - not all of present-day 1.2 million inhabitants have 4/4 grandparents born there.

I'm sure that few hundred thousands of them are not native to this region, or just partially native.

Especially after WW2 many Lower Silesians migrated to this region (ironically they could shift it west, autosomally).


but as I said, quite all East Germans have this for known reasons anyhow.

But I think that South-East Germans from this area have more Slavic admixture than most of other East Germans.

And a lot of them are just recently (= during the last few centuries) Germanized Sorbs, like that Beeskow woman.

In year 1700 Sorbian population was 250,000 and they were a much higher % (because total population was lower).

=====

Here I added some Polish regional samples (including Wielkopolska Poles for whom I have G25 coordinates) to G25 North Europe PCA:

(Kociewie is a sub-region of Pomerelia / West Prussia, which is directly neighbouring Kashubia, but they speak Wielkopolska dialect)

https://i.imgur.com/5e4wtIt.png

https://i.imgur.com/5e4wtIt.png

I wonder where are Polish10 and Polish11 from, these two are some of the most west-shifted among Davidski's Polish reference Poles.


Anyone has DNA samples of Sorbs?

Are they intermediate between Poles and Germans?

Nope, they are not intermediate, but identical as Poles (well within the Polish cluster).

Beeskow is like Central Poles, while Kamenz is like Poles from Poznań (Wielkopolska):

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/poles-in-new-human-origins-dataset.html


Harvard's Human Origins dataset is being updated with 238 new samples, including 23 from Poland (15 from Poznan in western Poland and 8 from Lublin in eastern Poland). It should be available for download soon at the Reich Lab website here, although many of the new samples will only be accessible to people who sign a waiver. Below is a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) from Lazaridis et al. 2016 featuring the new samples. Interestingly, most of the Poles, probably those from Poznan, cluster with Sorbs from eastern Germany.

Posted by Davidski

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Population_genetics


In a 2016 paper, Sorbs cluster autosomally again with Poles (from Poznań).[43]

[Roy]

We don't yet have any kits fully from there, besides Beeskow & Kamenz ???



They are roughly today's Lusatia (G, F, E, D, C) and roughly Wendischer Distrikt of Brandenburgian Kurmark (A, B).

Not so long ago you criticized me for labelling Beeskow (which is located in A) as Lusatia, and now you claim it is... :)

This is now officially noted (your admitting that Beeskow / Kreis Oder-Spree is also within Lusatia).

=====

One important thing to consider - not all of present-day 1.2 million inhabitants have 4/4 grandparents born there.

I'm sure that few hundred thousands of them are not native to this region, or just partially native.

Especially after WW2 many Lower Silesians migrated to this region (ironically they could shift it west, autosomally).



But I think that South-East Germans from this area have more Slavic admixture than most of other East Germans.

And a lot of them are just recently (= during the last few centuries) Germanized Sorbs, like that Beeskow woman.

In year 1700 Sorbian population was 250,000 and they were a much higher % (because total population was lower).

=====

Here I added some Polish regional samples (including Wielkopolska Poles for whom I have G25 coordinates) to G25 North Europe PCA:

(Kociewie is a sub-region of Pomerelia / West Prussia, which is directly neighbouring Kashubia, but they speak Wielkopolska dialect)

https://i.imgur.com/5e4wtIt.png

https://i.imgur.com/5e4wtIt.png

I wonder where are Polish10 and Polish11 from, these two are some of the most west-shifted among Davidski's Polish reference Poles.



Nope, they are not intermediate, but identical as Poles (well within the Polish cluster).

Beeskow is like Central Poles, while Kamenz is like Poles from Poznań (Wielkopolska):

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/poles-in-new-human-origins-dataset.html



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Population_genetics

Do you have any German Lower Silesian samples available? There have to be some people in Germany whose paper trail mostly belongs here left among the older generation. :) Some of could have a lot of hidden Polish ancestry as there were still villages speaking in Polish or with Polish sermons in late 19th century around Wrocław & Jelcz-Laskowice in particular.