Brand new genetic study on the origins of Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors

[Dunai]

This scientific paper is a true milestone in the genetic study of the origins of European Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors. There seems to be solid evidence of close genetic connection between European Huns and Avars, however several Hungary Conquerors were also related genetically to these two populations.

Summary
"Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians were Migration Period nomadic groups which arrived in three successive waves in the Carpathian Basin between the 5th and 9th centuries. Based on historical data each of these groups are thought to have arrived from Asia, although
their exact origin and relation to other ancient and modern populations has been debated. In this study we have sequenced 9 Hun, 143 Avar and 113 Hungarian conquest period samples, and identified three core populations, representing immigrants from each period, with no recent European ancestry."

Huns
"The genomic history of Huns Avars and Conquerors revealed in this study reconciles with historical, archaeological and linguistic sources. Our data shows that the leader strata of both European Huns and Avars originated from the area of the former Xiongnu Empire, from present day Mongolia, and both groups can be traced back to early Xiongnu ancestors. Northern Xiongnus were expelled from Mongolia in the second century CE, and during their westward migration Sarmatians were one of the largest groups they confronted. Sergey Botalov presumed the formation of a Hun-Sarmatian mixed culture in the Ural region before the appearance of Huns in Europe22, which fits the significant Sarmatian ancestry detected in our Hun samples, though this ancestry had been present in late Xiongnus as well. Thus our data are in accordance with the Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns, claimed by several historians. We also detected Goth- or other German-type genomes among our Hun period samples, again consistent with historical sources."

Avars
"Our data are compatible with the Rouran origin of Avar elite, though the single low coverage Rouran genome provided a poor fit in the qpAm models. The elite preserved very ancient east Asian genomes with undisputable origin, as had been also inferred from Y-Hg data, however just half of the Avar-cline individuals had Avar_Asia_Core ancestry, implicating diverse origin of the Avar population. Our models
indicate that the Avars incorporated groups with Xiongnu/Hun_Asia_Core and Iranian ancestries, presumably the remnants of the European Huns and Alans or other Iranian peoples on the Pontic Steppe, as suggested by Kim 2013. People with different origin were
seemingly distinguished, as samples with Hun-related genomes were buried in separate cemeteries."

Hungarian Conquerors
"The Conquerors, who arrived in the Carpathian Basin after the Avars, had distinct genomic background with elevated levels of western Eurasian admixture. They carried very similar genomes to modern Bashkirs and Tatars, in agreement with our previous results from
uniparental markers. Their genomes were shaped by several admixture events, of which the most fundamental was the Mezhovskaya-Nganasan admixture around the late Bronze Age, leading to the formation of a “proto-Ugric” gene pool. This was part of a general
demographic process, when most Steppe_MLBA populations received an eastern Khovsgol related Siberian influx together with a BMAC influx, and ANA related admixture became ubiquitous on the eastern Steppe establishing the Scytho-Siberian gene pool. Consequently
proto-Ugric groups could be part of the early Scytho-Siberian societies of the late Bronze Age-early Iron Age steppe-forest zone in the northern Kazakhstan region, in the proximity of the Mezhovskaya territory.

Our data support linguistic models, which predicted that Conquerors and Mansis had a common early history. Then Mansis migrated northward, probably during the Iron Age, and in isolation they preserved their Bronze-Age genomes. In contrast the Conquerors stayed
at the steppe-forest zone and admixed with Iranian speaking early Sarmatians, also attested by the presence of Iranian loanwords in the Hungarian language. This admixture likely happened when Sarmatians rose to power and started to integrate their neighboring tribes
before they occupied the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

All analysis congruently indicated, that the ancestors of Conquerors further admixed with a group from Mongolia, carrying Han-ANA related ancestry, which could be identified with early European Huns, compelling reconsideration of written historical sources about the
Hun-Hungarian relations. It is to be examined, how this genetic link is related to reports in medieval Hungarian chronicles about the Hun ancestry of the Conqueror elite, which according to the current state of historiography is not sufficiently supported. This admixture
could happen before the Huns arrived to the Volga region and integrated local tribes east of the Urals, including Sarmatians and the ancestors of Conquerors. These data are compatible with a Conqueror homeland around the Ural region, in the vicinity of early Sarmatians, along the migration route of the Huns, as had been surmised from the phylogenetic connections between the Conquerors and individuals of the Kushnarenkovo-Karayakupovo culture in the Trans-Uralic Uyelgi cemetery. Recently a Nganasan-like shared Siberian genetic ancestry was detected in all Uralic-speaking populations, Hungarians being an exception. Our data fills this gap, as Conq_Asia_Core has high Nganasan ancestry, notwithstanding this is negligible in modern Hungarians, partly because of the substantially smaller number of immigrants compared to the local population."

Source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1.full.pdf

[vbnetkhio]

This scientific paper is a true milestone in the genetic study of the origins of European Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors. There seems to be solid evidence of close genetic connection between European Huns and Avars, however several Hungary Conquerors were also related genetically to these two populations.

Summary
"Huns, Avars and conquering Hungarians were Migration Period nomadic groups which arrived in three successive waves in the Carpathian Basin between the 5th and 9th centuries. Based on historical data each of these groups are thought to have arrived from Asia, although
their exact origin and relation to other ancient and modern populations has been debated. In this study we have sequenced 9 Hun, 143 Avar and 113 Hungarian conquest period samples, and identified three core populations, representing immigrants from each period, with no recent European ancestry."

Huns
"The genomic history of Huns Avars and Conquerors revealed in this study reconciles with historical, archaeological and linguistic sources. Our data shows that the leader strata of both European Huns and Avars originated from the area of the former Xiongnu Empire, from present day Mongolia, and both groups can be traced back to early Xiongnu ancestors. Northern Xiongnus were expelled from Mongolia in the second century CE, and during their westward migration Sarmatians were one of the largest groups they confronted. Sergey Botalov presumed the formation of a Hun-Sarmatian mixed culture in the Ural region before the appearance of Huns in Europe22, which fits the significant Sarmatian ancestry detected in our Hun samples, though this ancestry had been present in late Xiongnus as well. Thus our data are in accordance with the Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns, claimed by several historians. We also detected Goth- or other German-type genomes among our Hun period samples, again consistent with historical sources."

Avars
"Our data are compatible with the Rouran origin of Avar elite, though the single low coverage Rouran genome provided a poor fit in the qpAm models. The elite preserved very ancient east Asian genomes with undisputable origin, as had been also inferred from Y-Hg data, however just half of the Avar-cline individuals had Avar_Asia_Core ancestry, implicating diverse origin of the Avar population. Our models
indicate that the Avars incorporated groups with Xiongnu/Hun_Asia_Core and Iranian ancestries, presumably the remnants of the European Huns and Alans or other Iranian peoples on the Pontic Steppe, as suggested by Kim 2013. People with different origin were
seemingly distinguished, as samples with Hun-related genomes were buried in separate cemeteries."

Hungarian Conquerors
"The Conquerors, who arrived in the Carpathian Basin after the Avars, had distinct genomic background with elevated levels of western Eurasian admixture. They carried very similar genomes to modern Bashkirs and Tatars, in agreement with our previous results from
uniparental markers. Their genomes were shaped by several admixture events, of which the most fundamental was the Mezhovskaya-Nganasan admixture around the late Bronze Age, leading to the formation of a “proto-Ugric” gene pool. This was part of a general
demographic process, when most Steppe_MLBA populations received an eastern Khovsgol related Siberian influx together with a BMAC influx, and ANA related admixture became ubiquitous on the eastern Steppe establishing the Scytho-Siberian gene pool. Consequently
proto-Ugric groups could be part of the early Scytho-Siberian societies of the late Bronze Age-early Iron Age steppe-forest zone in the northern Kazakhstan region, in the proximity of the Mezhovskaya territory.

Our data support linguistic models, which predicted that Conquerors and Mansis had a common early history. Then Mansis migrated northward, probably during the Iron Age, and in isolation they preserved their Bronze-Age genomes. In contrast the Conquerors stayed
at the steppe-forest zone and admixed with Iranian speaking early Sarmatians, also attested by the presence of Iranian loanwords in the Hungarian language. This admixture likely happened when Sarmatians rose to power and started to integrate their neighboring tribes
before they occupied the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

All analysis congruently indicated, that the ancestors of Conquerors further admixed with a group from Mongolia, carrying Han-ANA related ancestry, which could be identified with early European Huns, compelling reconsideration of written historical sources about the
Hun-Hungarian relations. It is to be examined, how this genetic link is related to reports in medieval Hungarian chronicles about the Hun ancestry of the Conqueror elite, which according to the current state of historiography is not sufficiently supported. This admixture
could happen before the Huns arrived to the Volga region and integrated local tribes east of the Urals, including Sarmatians and the ancestors of Conquerors. These data are compatible with a Conqueror homeland around the Ural region, in the vicinity of early Sarmatians, along the migration route of the Huns, as had been surmised from the phylogenetic connections between the Conquerors and individuals of the Kushnarenkovo-Karayakupovo culture in the Trans-Uralic Uyelgi cemetery. Recently a Nganasan-like shared Siberian genetic ancestry was detected in all Uralic-speaking populations, Hungarians being an exception. Our data fills this gap, as Conq_Asia_Core has high Nganasan ancestry, notwithstanding this is negligible in modern Hungarians, partly because of the substantially smaller number of immigrants compared to the local population."

Source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1.full.pdf

there is a thread already:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358443-New-Hun-Avar-and-Hungarian-genomes&p=7415485#post7415485

[Dunai]

there is a thread already:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358443-New-Hun-Avar-and-Hungarian-genomes&p=7415485#post7415485

Didn't see that thread, but I posted more relevant quotations from the article.

[Dunai]

This study also comes to confirm the very high likelihood that Hungarian Conquerors brought the Hungarian language into the Carpathian Basin, unlike what some people have speculated that it wasn't likely, since according to them the conquerors lacked "Uralic" genes and were however Central Asian Turks who only spoke Turkic. Since N Y-DNA was found among Conqueors in great number, close to 40%, the male haplogroup mainly associated with the spread of Uralic people and languages, this makes it even more evident that Hungarian Conquerors came indeed from their Uralic homeland and spoke Hungarian. All these new genetic results seem to corroborate very well the linguistic theory on the origins of the Hungarian language, plus the archeological record which shows clear as daylight parallels between Hungarian Conqueror graves in the Carpathian Basin and the graves of various Uralic archeological cultures.

[Turul Karom]

This study also comes to confirm the very high likelihood that Hungarian Conquerors brought the Hungarian language into the Carpathian Basin, unlike what some people have speculated that it wasn't likely, since according to them the conquerors lacked "Uralic" genes and were however Central Asian Turks who only spoke Turkic. Since N Y-DNA was found among Conqueors in great number, close to 40%, the male haplogroup mainly associated with the spread of Uralic people and languages, this makes it even more evident that Hungarian Conquerors came indeed from their Uralic homeland and spoke Hungarian. All these new genetic results seem to corroborate very well the linguistic theory on the origins of the Hungarian language, plus the archeological record which shows clear as daylight parallels between Hungarian Conqueror graves in the Carpathian Basin and the graves of various Uralic archeological cultures.

The two-tiered society never existed amongst them. The Conquerors were always described as bilingual.

[Dunai]

The two-tiered society never existed amongst them. The Conquerors were always described as bilingual.

I never stated that they spoke exclusively Hungarian, but what I said was that even genetics prove without any doubt that they had very-very strong links to the Ugric branch of the Uralic family, with Mansis, just as linguistics showed all along. They even kept relations with their Uralic homeland hundreds of years after moving into the Carpathian Basin. This supposition that the Conqueror came from Central Asia and they were Turkic people doesn't hold any ground in factual reality. They mixed with Central Asian elements but they never lost their Uralic character.

[Turul Karom]

I never stated that they spoke exclusively Hungarian, but what I said was that even genetics prove without any doubt that they had very-very strong links to the Ugric branch of the Uralic family, with Mansis, just as linguistics showed all along. They even kept relations with their Uralic homeland hundreds of years after moving into the Carpathian Basin. This supposition that the Conqueror came from Central Asia and they were Turkic people doesn't hold any ground in factual reality. They mixed with Central Asian elements but they never lost their Uralic character.

Very weird how you copied so much from the Hungarian Conqueror section of the study but left out the final line from it:

The large number of genetic outliers with Hun_Asia_Core ancestry in both Avars and Conquerors testify that these successive nomadic groups were indeed assembled from overlaping populations.

[Turul Karom]

TRIPLE post from TA crash. Posting a video instead in the edit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUz5P9t2XCk

[Turul Karom]

Double post from TA crash. Have a video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTz9YFXhAU4

[Dunai]

Very weird how you copied so much from the Hungarian Conqueror section of the study but left out the final line from it:

The large number of genetic outliers with Hun_Asia_Core ancestry in both Avars and Conquerors testify that these successive nomadic groups were indeed assembled from overlaping populations.

There is no conspiracy going on, but simply I forgot to quote that small last paragraph, happens with all of us. What I quoted otherwise already makes that last quote self-explanatory so nyugi :)

[Turul Karom]

Edit: double post from TA host crash. Have a video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtTGIr6Q6oU

[Turul Karom]

There is no conspiracy going on, but simply I forgot to quote that small last paragraph, happens with all of us. What I quoted otherwise already makes that last quote self-explanatory so nyugi :)

This picture from the study demonstrates better and with more nuance that there is no magical "Mansi" core. Common early ancestry does not make common for all. Hungarians were not Mansi or Khanty but have earlier genetic ties. This picture shows the Asian Conquerors moving into the Carpathian basin separate from the now ethnically distinct Mansi.

https://i.ibb.co/KVV31FH/Screenshot-2022-01-23-at-08-59-30-58775486-2022-01-19-476915v1-full-pdf.png (https://ibb.co/YffqrpG)

Also I hate how often TA host crashes. Very frustrating.

[Dunai]

This picture from the study demonstrates better and with more nuance that there is no magical "Mansi" core. Common early ancestry does not make common for all. Hungarians were not Mansi or Khanty but have earlier genetic ties. This picture shows the Asian Conquerors moving into the Carpathian basin separate from the now ethnically distinct Mansi.

https://i.ibb.co/KVV31FH/Screenshot-2022-01-23-at-08-59-30-58775486-2022-01-19-476915v1-full-pdf.png (https://ibb.co/YffqrpG)

Also I hate how often TA host crashes. Very frustrating.

Hope you didn't forget to read this paragraph before you so vehemently try to deny the close Hungarian Conqueror-Mansi connection:

"Admixture f3-statistics indicated that the main admixture sources of Conq_Asia_Core1 were Steppe_MLBA populations and ancestors of modern Nganasans. Outgroup f3-statistics revealed that Conq_Asia_Core1 shared highest drift with modern Siberian populations speaking Uralic languages; Nganasan (Samoyedic), Mansi (Ugric), Selkup (Samoyedic) and Enets (Samoyedic), implicating that Conq_Asia_Core shared evolutionary past with language relatives of modern Hungarians. For this reason we co-analyzed Mansis, the closest language relatives of Hungarians with Conq_Asia_Core.
From pre-Iron Age sources Mansis could be qpAdm modelled from 48% Mezhovskaya, 44% Nganasan and 8% Botai19, while Conq_Asia_Core1 from 52%
Mezhovskaya, 13% Nganasan, 20% Altai_MLBA_o13 and 15% Mongolia_LBA_CenterWest_4D15 confirming shared late Bronze Age ancestries of these groups, but also signifying that the Nganasan-like ancestry was largely replaced in Conq_Asia_Core by a Scytho-Siberian-like ancestry including BMAC derived from the Altai-Mongolia region.
From proximal sources Conq_Asia_Core1 could be consistently modelled from 50% Mansi, 35% Early/Late Sarmatian and 15% Scytho-Siberian-outlier/Xiongnu/Hun ancestries, and Conq_Asia_Core2 had comparable models with shifted proportions."

[Karol Klačansky]

so how much ancestry do modern hungarians have from these hungarian conquerors?

[Turul Karom]

Hope you didn't forget to read this paragraph before you so vehemently try to deny the close Hungarian Conqueror-Mansi connection:

"Admixture f3-statistics indicated that the main admixture sources of Conq_Asia_Core1 were Steppe_MLBA populations and ancestors of modern Nganasans. Outgroup f3-statistics revealed that Conq_Asia_Core1 shared highest drift with modern Siberian populations speaking Uralic languages; Nganasan (Samoyedic), Mansi (Ugric), Selkup (Samoyedic) and Enets (Samoyedic), implicating that Conq_Asia_Core shared evolutionary past with language relatives of modern Hungarians. For this reason we co-analyzed Mansis, the closest language relatives of Hungarians with Conq_Asia_Core.
From pre-Iron Age sources Mansis could be qpAdm modelled from 48% Mezhovskaya, 44% Nganasan and 8% Botai19, while Conq_Asia_Core1 from 52%
Mezhovskaya, 13% Nganasan, 20% Altai_MLBA_o13 and 15% Mongolia_LBA_CenterWest_4D15 confirming shared late Bronze Age ancestries of these groups, but also signifying that the Nganasan-like ancestry was largely replaced in Conq_Asia_Core by a Scytho-Siberian-like ancestry including BMAC derived from the Altai-Mongolia region.
From proximal sources Conq_Asia_Core1 could be consistently modelled from 50% Mansi, 35% Early/Late Sarmatian and 15% Scytho-Siberian-outlier/Xiongnu/Hun ancestries, and Conq_Asia_Core2 had comparable models with shifted proportions."

There just isn't a "core" Mansi dominance. I've said since the dawn of my posting on TA that Ugric/Uralic peoples and language especially played a distinct role in Hungarian ethnogenesis. The problem comes when people say that they were the majority group from the start and influenced everything else with Central Asians/Turkics playing negligible roles. Of course these same people then use that theory to round the Turkic contribution from "low" to "zero" because they can't stomach its even marginal presence.

Imagine knowing that Hungarians have entirely Turkic steppe culture, runic alphabet, Tengrist religion, tribal names, bilingualism, and even founding dynasty Y-DNA matching Osman house (R1a-Z93, and not haplogroup N), and thinking, "Hmm, yes, Ugric is clearly dominant here" when even the largest % of Hungarian words are of "unknown" origin, admitted by Uralic-supporter linguists.

https://i.ibb.co/cQ9dY46/arpad-DNA-dynasty-line-R1a-Z93.jpg (https://ibb.co/CQyFPRb)

Again, the Mansi did not "become" the Hungarians. They were distinct, and stayed distinct, contributing genetics and language in-part and not as a whole. There is Uralic contribution to the ethnogenesis with everything else being dominantly Turkic. Pointing out that there was a lot of N in conqueror graves completely ignores the dominance of R1, which was even more present than N. But your conclusion would be that the Mansi N is somehow the core? There were even more R1 in Hunnic graves than N..

https://i.ibb.co/jh6t3LQ/mt-DNA-origins-of-Hungarian-hun-and-avar-conquering-Magyar-graves-and-DNA-skin-color-eye-color-hair.png (https://ibb.co/0qD5Yf6)

What's hilarious is even Hungarian members own results on TA show a higher Turkic than Ugric influence across their genetic results. I score Finno-Ugric Urals and Hun Mongolia on ancient populations to 1000AD test with more Turkic than Uralic %, and my modern populations results contain almost every Turkic group all the way to Uyghurs in %'s greater than 1 each. If modern Hungarians are consistently compared to only modern Ugrics like Khanty and Mansi and not Turkics, then there will always be people scratching their heads and thinking that there is no longer a connection with the conquerors or that it is "negligible" across the country. Include Turkics in the comparison, and the whole origins narrative fits like a perfect puzzle.

[Dunai]

There just isn't a "core" Mansi dominance. I've said since the dawn of my posting on TA that Ugric/Uralic peoples and language especially played a distinct role in Hungarian ethnogenesis. The problem comes when people say that they were the majority group from the start and influenced everything else with Central Asians/Turkics playing negligible roles. Of course these same people then use that theory to round the Turkic contribution from "low" to "zero" because they can't stomach its even marginal presence.

Imagine knowing that Hungarians have entirely Turkic steppe culture, runic alphabet, Tengrist religion, tribal names, bilingualism, and even founding dynasty Y-DNA matching Osman house (R1a-Z93, and not haplogroup N), and thinking, "Hmm, yes, Ugric is clearly dominant here" when even the largest % of Hungarian words are of "unknown" origin, admitted by Uralic-supporter linguists.

https://i.ibb.co/cQ9dY46/arpad-DNA-dynasty-line-R1a-Z93.jpg (https://ibb.co/CQyFPRb)

Again, the Mansi did not "become" the Hungarians. They were distinct, and stayed distinct, contributing genetics and language in-part and not as a whole. There is Uralic contribution to the ethnogenesis with everything else being dominantly Turkic. Pointing out that there was a lot of N in conqueror graves completely ignores the dominance of R1, which was even more present than N. But your conclusion would be that the Mansi N is somehow the core? There were even more R1 in Hunnic graves than N..

https://i.ibb.co/jh6t3LQ/mt-DNA-origins-of-Hungarian-hun-and-avar-conquering-Magyar-graves-and-DNA-skin-color-eye-color-hair.png (https://ibb.co/0qD5Yf6)

What's hilarious is even Hungarian members own results on TA show a higher Turkic than Ugric influence across their genetic results. I score Finno-Ugric Urals and Hun Mongolia on ancient populations to 1000AD test with more Turkic than Uralic %, and my modern populations results contain almost every Turkic group all the way to Uyghurs in %'s greater than 1 each. If modern Hungarians are consistently compared to only modern Ugrics like Khanty and Mansi and not Turkics, then there will always be people scratching their heads and thinking that there is no longer a connection with the conquerors or that it is "negligible" across the country. Include Turkics in the comparison, and the whole origins narrative fits like a perfect puzzle.

Contrary to you I only look at data and forward the conclusions of scientists to the general public who might be interested in the topic of Hungarian origins. I personally couldn't care less if the dominant element in the ethnogenesis of Hungarian Conquerors were Turks or Uralics or Scythians. What I presented so far are the conclusions from the authors themselves, who otherwise try to push the "Hun origins of Hungarians" theory, but even they realized after seeing the hard data that the core Uralic origin of Hungarian Conquerors is clear as daylight. I simply don't understand why do you have to do such mental gymnastics and deny the clear-cut conclusions of these scientists. Our language is also a Uralic language, that's a fact, no matter how difficult for you it is to cope with it.

[Turul Karom]

so how much ancestry do modern hungarians have from these hungarian conquerors?

It varies from Hungarian to Hungarian and what a personal definition of "conqueror ancestry" is, both culturally and genetic. Genetically it is present in most Hungarians (both Asian and European conqueror admixture as the Conquerors were not exclusively East Asians as if they all came from the Chinese coast).

[Blondie]

I never stated that they spoke exclusively Hungarian, but what I said was that even genetics prove without any doubt that they had very-very strong links to the Ugric branch of the Uralic family, with Mansis, just as linguistics showed all along. They even kept relations with their Uralic homeland hundreds of years after moving into the Carpathian Basin. This supposition that the Conqueror came from Central Asia and they were Turkic people doesn't hold any ground in factual reality. They mixed with Central Asian elements but they never lost their Uralic character.

The problem with that:

1. It's not proved that conquerors spoked hungarian, but the greek sources described them turkic, obviously because they were turkic speakers. They called Árpád as king of Turkia and Hungary named as Turkia by them. The byzantine academic world was one of the most advanced in this age, they knew eastern european nomads (turkics) very well, so these sources are the most trustworthy.

2. Medieval sources (Gesta Hungarorum) proves that the modern hungarian language existed in the Carpathian Basin before the conquerors. The Gesta Hungarorum presented very well the political and ethnical relations in the Carpathian Basin at this time. The modern archaeology confirmed many thing what Anonymus said, for example the presence of roman survivors at this time, earlier the historians thought it's impossible until they have found the roman Keszthely culture. Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity who were here before Árpád, they lived in Alföld and Transylvania, and they used such words and topography what came from the hungarian language what hungarians speaks today.

3. If coquerors brought the hungarian language in the Carpathian Basin then how the Carpathian Basin became 80-90% hungarian speaker 100 years later? The number of couquerors were just 20000-60000 people, and the local population was 0,5-1 million. It's impossible that this small elite assimilate millions, and there were no schools or national identity at this time. That's nonsense.

[Dunai]

The problem with that:

1. It's not proved that conquerors spoked hungarian, but the greek sources described them turkic, obviously because they were turkic speakers. They called Árpád as king of Turkia and Hungary named as Turkia by them. The byzantine academic world was one of the most advanced in this age, they knew eastern european nomads (turkics) very well, so these sources are the most trustworthy.

2. Medieval sources (Gesta Hungarorum) proves that the modern hungarian language existed in the Carpathian Basin before the conquerors. The Gesta Hungarorum presented very well the political and ethnical relations in the Carpathian Basin at this time. The modern archaeology confirmed many thing what Anonymus said, for example the presence of roman survivors at this time, earlier the historians thought it's impossible until they have found the roman Keszthely culture. Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity who were here before Árpád, they lived in Alföld and Transylvania, and they used such words and topography what came from the hungarian language what hungarians speaks today.

3. If coquerors brought the hungarian language in the Carpathian Basin then how the Carpathian Basin became 80-90% hungarian speaker 100 years later? The number of couquerors were just 20000-60000 people, and the local population was 0,5-1 million. It's impossible that this small elite assimilate millions, and there were no schools or national identity at this time. That's nonsense.

No serious academic believes that the Hungarian language didn't arrive into the Carpathian Basin together with the Conquerors. There is no other candidate population that prior could have brought it here, except them. All fields of science point to Conquerors as the obvious candidate for bringing Hungarian here. Also it is not unheard of at all that small populations can assimilate much larger ones. Look at how few Spanish colonizers managed to linguistically assimilate large parts of the Americas.

[Turul Karom]

Contrary to you I only look at data and forward the conclusions of scientists to the general public who might be interested in the topic of Hungarian origins. I personally couldn't care less if the dominant element in the ethnogenesis of Hungarian Conquerors were Turks or Uralics or Scythians. What I presented so far are the conclusions from the authors themselves, who otherwise try to push the "Hun origins of Hungarians" theory, but even they realized after seeing the hard data that the core Uralic origin of Hungarian Conquerors is clear as daylight. I simply don't understand why do you have to do such mental gymnastics and deny the clear-cut conclusions of these scientists. Our language is also a Uralic language, that's a fact, no matter how difficult for you it is to cope with it.

Way to address the points I posted. Imagine reading my post and just saying "mental gymnastics" as though it didn't debunk your entire framing.

Oh, and the reason you had to make what you wrote in post #4 in this thread is because you need to frame it yourself because the written conclusions are not what you perceive. Even their map explains it differently.

Conquerors had more R1 than N. Conquerors had more Turkic than Ugric (I love how they need to call it Uralic now and not Finno-Ugric) cultural and genetic origins and were even bilingual, which is well documented. You're the one who will need to deal with what I posted above. No matter how much you hate it, the founding dynasty will never be Ugric but Turkic and R1.

[Scandal]

It varies from Hungarian to Hungarian and what a personal definition of "conqueror ancestry" is, both culturally and genetic. Genetically it is present in most Hungarians (both Asian and European conqueror admixture as the Conquerors were not exclusively East Asians as if they all came from the Chinese coast).
Hungarian conquerors looked like Jackie Chan. Fact.
Bruce Lee, being 1/4 White, would've looked too western to fit among hungarian conquerors.

[Blondie]

No serious academic believes that the Hungarian language didn't arrive into the Carpathian Basin together with the Conquerors. There is no other candidate population that prior could have brought it here, except them. All fields of science point to Conquerors as the obvious candidate for bringing Hungarian here. Also it is not unheard of at all that small populations can assimilate much larger ones. Look at how few Spanish colonizers managed to linguistically assimilate large parts of the Americas.

You still didn't answer for these hard questions, what are facts and refute you. If you want to say that conquerors had uralic genetic origin, then you must post a genetic result of conqurors when they were mostly uralic, but there is no such thing, the genetic results showed a different pic:


We did not find Finno-Ugric genetic connection, so our data do not support the FinnoUgric origin of the conquerors

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/2/Neparaczki_Thesis_english.pdf

even the MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) said "we have no finno-ugric origin, only our language is finno-ugric":

https://mta.hu/tudomany_hirei/nem-mi-vagyunk-finnugor-eredetuek-hanem-a-nyelvunk-a-tudomanyhu-cikke-a-magyar-ostortenet-legfontosabb-tenyeirol-108820

Every serious scientist and prof agree that conquerors had turkic ethnic origin not finno-ugric.

And there is other candidate population, the hungarus what Anonymus mentioned. The spanish example is bullshit because the latinization of America happened for centuries, it was pretty long process (unlike the hungarian case), there were schools, and the national identity was much stronger than in the 9. century. In fact, most of native americans learned spanish only between the 19-18 century when the national awakening started, before that they used mostly the local tribal language.

[Jana]

I never stated that they spoke exclusively Hungarian, but what I said was that even genetics prove without any doubt that they had very-very strong links to the Ugric branch of the Uralic family, with Mansis, just as linguistics showed all along. They even kept relations with their Uralic homeland hundreds of years after moving into the Carpathian Basin. This supposition that the Conqueror came from Central Asia and they were Turkic people doesn't hold any ground in factual reality. They mixed with Central Asian elements but they never lost their Uralic character.

This was known years before genetic studies though, if anyone read actual Hungarian academics from MTA. Dual conquest theory was always weak and illogical.
It's simple really:

Hungarian most original base is Ugric from SW Siberia, than they moved south to the west Kazakh steppe and started contact with Iranics (Scytho-Sarmatians), than Turks, than Germanics and latest Slavs as they moved west into Pontic steppe and finally Carpathian Basin. Ugric was always the base and they heavily intermixed along the way, but kept the language.

From oldest to youngest layer Hungarian ethnogenesis was like this more or less:

1) Ugric
2) Iranic
3) Turkic
4) Germanic
5) Slavic

than the rest.

[Hektor12]

Hungarian conquerors looked like Jackie Chan. Fact.
Bruce Lee, being 1/4 White, would've looked too western to fit among hungarian conquerors.

I always question this "homogeneously foreign looking people" story. Especially, in a very diverse and mixed people like this.

[Scandal]

I always question this "homogeneously foreign looking people" story. Especially, in a very diverse and mixed people like this.
It was a joke.

[Hektor12]

It was a joke.

Ah, sorry. Topic was so serious i couldnt think that.

[Jana]

You still didn't answer for these hard questions, what are facts and refute you. If you want to say that conquerors had uralic genetic origin, then you must post a genetic result of conqurors when they were mostly uralic, but there is no such thing, the genetic results showed a different pic:

Conquerors were in minority Uralics genetically, because they split from other Ugrics extremely long time before arrival to the Carpathian Basis. They were heavily mongrelized by the time of their arrival but language persisted. Point is that they were originally Ugric people and not any kind of Turks, Turkic admixture is just something they picked up along the way, like many others (and Iranic admix preceeds Turkic as well).

Hungarian language arrived with conquerors, there is no any kind of evidence nor indication that it was there before.

[Leto]

Turul Karom, you don't speak a Turkic language natively, therefore you aren't Turkic. Period.

That's a great study, I hope there will be some G25 samples from it later.

[Turul Karom]

even the MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) said "we have no finno-ugric origin, only our language is finno-ugric":

https://mta.hu/tudomany_hirei/nem-mi-vagyunk-finnugor-eredetuek-hanem-a-nyelvunk-a-tudomanyhu-cikke-a-magyar-ostortenet-legfontosabb-tenyeirol-108820



This is why, when modern Hungarian genetics are compared with only Ugrics, or looking for only haplogroup N in Hungary, you will hear people try to make the argument that modern Hungarians have no DNA connection to conquering population. When including Turkic conquerors, modern Hungarians can match much more. This is shown again even on TA, as I said, where many Hungarian members have non-negligible Turkic results across many calculators.

[Turul Karom]

Turul Karom, you don't speak a Turkic language natively, therefore you aren't Turkic. Period.

That's a great study, I hope there will be some G25 samples from it later.

Great criteria for what constitutes belonging to a meta ethnicity. I guess Africans who speak English fluently as a first language are Anglos according to you lol

[Dunai]

You still didn't answer for these hard questions, what are facts and refute you. If you want to say that conquerors had uralic genetic origin, then you must post a genetic result of conqurors when they were mostly uralic, but there is no such thing, the genetic results showed a different pic:



http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/2/Neparaczki_Thesis_english.pdf

even the MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) said "we have no finno-ugric origin, only our language is finno-ugric":

https://mta.hu/tudomany_hirei/nem-mi-vagyunk-finnugor-eredetuek-hanem-a-nyelvunk-a-tudomanyhu-cikke-a-magyar-ostortenet-legfontosabb-tenyeirol-108820

Every serious scientist and prof agree that conquerors had turkic ethnic origin not finno-ugric.

And there is other candidate population, the hungarus what Anonymus mentioned. The spanish example is bullshit because the latinization of America happened for centuries, it was pretty long process (unlike the hungarian case), there were schools, and the national identity was much stronger than in the 9. century. In fact, most of native americans learned spanish only between the 19-18 century when the national awakening started, before that they used mostly the local tribal language.

This is the most pathetic and in the same time truly autistic argument that I read in quite a while. Are you that blind to see that the authors of this present study I based this thread upon was written by the same scientific team from MKI than the one you posted in the first link. This 2022 study overwrites the previous conclusion this very same team has made in 2017. Surprise-surprise, actually science keeps reassessing their conclusions in the result of new discoveries. But how would such a very troubled mind like you even understand the 101s of science. I will quote it again so maybe you will actually give a damn to read what was the conclusion of the current paper:

"The “immigrant core” of the conquering Hungarians derived from an earlier admixture of Mansis, early Sarmatians and descendants of late Xiongnus. In addition, we detected shared Hun-related ancestry in numerous Avar and Hungarian conquest period genetic outliers indicating a genetic link between these successive nomadic groups. Aside from the immigrant core groups we identified that the majority of the individuals from each period were local residents, harboring “native European” ancestry"

"From proximal sources Conq_Asia_Core1 could be consistently modelled from 50% Mansi, 35% Early/Late Sarmatian and 15% Scytho-Siberian-outlier/Xiongnu/Hun ancestries, and Conq_Asia_Core2 had comparable models with shifted proportions"

This is very easy English, you can't possibly get its meaning wrong if you read it slowly, try to do so. It is absolutely clear that the main genetic "ingredient" for Hungarian Conquerors were Ugric, Iranian and Turkic people. They also best can be modeled as half Ugric, 1/3 Iranian and 15% Turkic. Genetics simply don't lie, these are the actual finds. You can twist it and bring your own delusional narrative as you want but the hard data is what I just quoted from the article.

[Hektor12]

where many Hungarian members have non-negligible Turkic results across many calculators.

Hungarians originally should have been more Conqueror-like. HRE imports of Serbs from Serbia into Hungary changed genetics of Hungarians as far as i know. Many Hungarians are basically Serbs pretending to be Hungarian.

[Turul Karom]

Hungarians originally should have been more Conqueror-like. HRE imports of Serbs from Serbia into Hungary changed genetics of Hungarians as far as i know. Many Hungarians are basically Serbs pretending to be Hungarian.

Less than you think. More Hungarians need to do thorough DNA testing and wake up to who they are.

[Token]

Hope you didn't forget to read this paragraph before you so vehemently try to deny the close Hungarian Conqueror-Mansi connection:

"Admixture f3-statistics indicated that the main admixture sources of Conq_Asia_Core1 were Steppe_MLBA populations and ancestors of modern Nganasans. Outgroup f3-statistics revealed that Conq_Asia_Core1 shared highest drift with modern Siberian populations speaking Uralic languages; Nganasan (Samoyedic), Mansi (Ugric), Selkup (Samoyedic) and Enets (Samoyedic), implicating that Conq_Asia_Core shared evolutionary past with language relatives of modern Hungarians. For this reason we co-analyzed Mansis, the closest language relatives of Hungarians with Conq_Asia_Core.
From pre-Iron Age sources Mansis could be qpAdm modelled from 48% Mezhovskaya, 44% Nganasan and 8% Botai19, while Conq_Asia_Core1 from 52%
Mezhovskaya, 13% Nganasan, 20% Altai_MLBA_o13 and 15% Mongolia_LBA_CenterWest_4D15 confirming shared late Bronze Age ancestries of these groups, but also signifying that the Nganasan-like ancestry was largely replaced in Conq_Asia_Core by a Scytho-Siberian-like ancestry including BMAC derived from the Altai-Mongolia region.
From proximal sources Conq_Asia_Core1 could be consistently modelled from 50% Mansi, 35% Early/Late Sarmatian and 15% Scytho-Siberian-outlier/Xiongnu/Hun ancestries, and Conq_Asia_Core2 had comparable models with shifted proportions."

Yep, this proves beyond any reasonable doubt conquering Hungarians' Ugric core. All other theories, who were already marginal, will be put to rest after this paper.

[Turul Karom]

Yep, this proves beyond any reasonable doubt conquering Hungarians' Ugric core. All other theories, who were already marginal, will be put to rest after this paper.

You're combing over the fact that the academic paper also states that Hungarians are Huns, too. I'd think that this would have gotten the most attention.

[Jana]

Hungarians originally should have been more Conqueror-like. HRE imports of Serbs from Serbia into Hungary changed genetics of Hungarians as far as i know. Many Hungarians are basically Serbs pretending to be Hungarian.

Why specificaly Serbs? There is more Slovak, German and Croat ancestry in Hungary than there is Serb. Serbs massively migrated into Vojvodina which is today not part of Hungary.
Neither is there really widespread Serb ancestry among Hungarians, there is lot more Slovak and German. Serb ancestry is concentrated in few regions and far from being very relevant for ethnogenesis of modern Hungarians.

It's pure nonsense. Most of Slavic ancestry in Hungarians comes from Carpathian Basin native Slavs.

[Blondie]

del

[Blondie]

del

[Blondie]

It's pure nonsense. Most of Slavic ancestry in Hungarians comes from Carpathian Basin native Slavs.

Slavs are not native in the Carpathian Basin, they migrated here in the 6. century.

[CommonSense]

One thing is for sure. The Hungarian conquerors had quite a lot of steppe admixture considering that the majority of their ancestry was derived from Iron Age Siberian and Scytho-Sarmatian populations. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they more of an affinity to Corded Ware and Yamnaya than even the modern-day Hungarians.

[Blondie]

Okay i accept the uralic origin of conquerors, the turkic theory seems outdated. But if the conquerors brought the hungarian language why are these locals used hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds? There is no hungarian sources about the conquest nowadays, because the tatars burned everything, but when Anonymus lived and wrote the Gesta Hungarorum these original sources are still existed, and this book is based on these original sources about conquest, and this is the most authentic source about the conquest and the ethnic and politic relations in the Carpathian Basin. And Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity, who lived here before nomad magyars. Another fact, in the medieval Hungary this hungarus vs conqueror identity still existed, the noble class considered themselves as descedants of the 7 conqueror tribe, but the hungarian speaker peasants had hungarus identity and they did not identify themselves with the conquerors. The academic hungarian historical science also take differece between the hungarus (commoners) and the conquerors (elite), this is also fact.

[Dick]

My mtdna and matches including the ancient one from the study below. She was obviously a local female that was assimilated.

https://i.imgur.com/1rfczid.png

[Hektor12]

Why specificaly Serbs?

I remember from history that Habsburgs brought Serbs into Hungary and settled them around Ottoman border, to use them as a christian border security force. (Which was so massive movement resulted in almost empty Serbia.) Forgive me if im wrong.


Less than you think.
Hopefully. And something for you, which will im sure make you chuckle. (:

(Around 5:00)


https://youtu.be/ZFTntCKH4ck

[Lucas]

Ok guys, unless there is no G25 I created oracle for Vahaduo using Admixture values for all samples from this table:) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2022/01/20/2022.01.19.476915/DC5/embed/media-5.xlsx?=true

Pannonian Oracle (ancient & modern) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A-73p-2aGrr2_1YHdtTWVgmVC6J-tsj0/view?usp=sharing

only modern - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rZhTCL6vdoCZYjQBglflzgQKYmlVawtz/view?usp=sharing

Use ADC x0.25 or more, otherwise results are too fragmented.
Of course we analyse only samples from the oracle, not our own.... I Ithink I have to add this:)

So put samples "OWN_" to Target to analyse properly Hun, Avar and Conqueror admixtures.

[Lucas]

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_VZ-12673
5.47722558 Kurayly_Hun_380CE_Hun_elite_OWN_KRY001.A0101
6.85565460 Kazakhstan_OutTianShanHun_Hun_elite_OWN_DA127.SG
7.00000000 Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE_Xianbei1_OWN_BRE014.A0101

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_SZLA-646
2.44948974 England_Saxon_-_I0777.SG
2.64575131 England_Saxon_-_I0159.SG
3.00000000 England_LIA_ERoman_-_I0156.SG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_SEI-6
5.19615242 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean_-_R1220.SG
5.47722558 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean_-_R1286.SG
5.65685425 Hungary_Langobard_-_SZ5.SG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_SEI-5
5.09901951 Italy_LA_oCentralEuropean_-_R106.SG
6.63324958 Ukraine_Scythian_-_scy010.SG
6.70820393 Italy_Medieval_EarlyModern_oCentralEuropean_-_R1220.SG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_MSG-1
3.31662479 lateXiongnu2_lXio8_OWN_BTO001.A0101
4.35889894 Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE_Xianbei1_OWN_BRE014.A0101
6.63324958 lateXiongnu2_lXio6_OWN_CHN010.A0101

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_KMT-2785
9.53939201 Russia_Medieval_Nomad_-_DA142.SG
12.68857754 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
12.72792206 Even_-_Nlk19

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_CSB-9
4.79583152 Estonia_CWC_-_EKA1
5.09901951 Sweden_Viking_-_vik_KAL006.SG
5.19615242 Estonia_Medieval_-_s19_IVLS09KT_1.SG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_CSB-3
5.38516481 Hungary_Langobard_-_SZ27
6.70820393 Iberia_Visigoth_Girona_-_I12163
7.07106781 Italy_North_EarlyMedieval_Langobards_-_CL57

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Hun_-_ASZK-1
6.08276253 Moldova_Cimmerian_-_cim357.SG
6.32455532 Kazakhstan_Kangju_Kangju_OWN_DA226.SG
6.63324958 Russia_Late_Sarmatian_LSarm_o_OWN_chy002.SG

[Lucas]

Sheet with modern samples from this study only. To model with them ancients better https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rZhTCL6vdoCZYjQBglflzgQKYmlVawtz/view?usp=sharing


Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZRV-54
13.03840481 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220
13.30413470 Turkmen_-_UZB105_turkmen
13.82027496 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZOD1-829
10.24695077 Croatian_-_CRO107
10.53565375 Romanian_-_A374
10.63014581 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZOD1-829
10.24695077 Croatian_-_CRO107
10.53565375 Romanian_-_A374
10.63014581 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZOD1-76
13.67479433 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
13.67479433 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
15.29705854 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay25

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZOD1-187
10.77032961 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-876
10.81665383 Khakass_Kachin_-_Khs-403
11.13552873 Altaian_Ongudaisky_-_ALT-753

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZOD1-127
12.60952021 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19
12.76714533 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-15
12.84523258 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-224

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZK-213
18.76166304 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-224
19.84943324 Karakalpak_-_KKA-016
20.00000000 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZK-102
13.96424004 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
14.45683229 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012
15.06651917 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZF-371
12.28820573 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
16.46207763 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010
16.58312395 Turkish_-_Turkish8BA62

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SZF-181
12.24744871 Finnish_-_HG00181
12.28820573 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
13.00000000 Hungarian_-_NA15207

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SSD-58
12.24744871 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.28820573 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
13.85640646 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_SSD-17
9.38083152 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
9.53939201 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
10.67707825 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MT-29
14.83239697 Kazakh_-_KZH-1614
14.96662955 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19
15.74801575 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-15

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MS-43
13.82027496 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
14.38749457 Spanish_-_HG01500
14.42220510 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-83
11.40175425 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19
11.57583690 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-15
12.16552506 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-17

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-80
11.83215957 Altaian_Ongudaisky_-_ALT-741
11.87434209 Altaian_Ongudaisky_-_ALT-743
12.52996409 Mongol_Sainnoyon_-_MON-0165

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-61
12.84523258 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
13.19090596 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220
14.17744688 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-240
14.79864859 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
15.00000000 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
15.23154621 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-151
15.36229150 Kalmyk_-_kalmyk32
15.62049935 Kalmyk_-_kalmyk11
15.62049935 Kalmyk_-_kalmyk67

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_MM-131
14.35270009 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
15.49193338 Spanish_-_HG01500
15.52417470 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_HC-168
13.34166406 Turkish_-_Turkish8BA62
15.19868415 Turkish_-_Aydin18784
16.00000000 Turkish_-_Turkish7BA57

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_FU-193
17.17556404 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
18.08314132 Turkish_-_Turkish8BA62
18.19340540 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_AN-286
10.72380529 Ukrainian_North_-_UKR-1903
12.52996409 Russian_Cheremisinovsky_-_Rkuch-05
12.76714533 Belarusian_-_bel93c

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_-_ACG-19
13.60147051 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-876
13.67479433 Khakass_Kachin_-_Khs-422
14.07124728 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-91

[Lucas]

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_VPB-31
14.73091986 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
14.89966443 Spanish_-_HG01500
15.03329638 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_VPB-31
14.73091986 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
14.89966443 Spanish_-_HG01500
15.03329638 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_TTSZ-43
12.32882801 Khakass_Kachin_-_Khs-422
12.60952021 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-916
12.92284798 Evenk_FarEast_-_AMU-672

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_TMH-798
9.38083152 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
9.94987437 Hungarian_-_hungary7
10.14889157 Hungarian_-_NA15206

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_TMH-509
13.07669683 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
13.49073756 Hungarian_-_NA15199
13.52774926 Hungarian_-_NA15200

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_TMH-1273
12.44989960 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
12.56980509 Croatian_-_CRO47
12.64911064 Romanian_-_A306

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZRV-67
16.94107435 Turkish_-_Turkish8BA62
17.00000000 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
19.28730152 Gagauz_-_GAG-220

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZRV-316
14.38749457 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
14.38749457 Turkmen_-_UZB105_turkmen
14.49137675 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZRV-277
17.17556404 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
17.72004515 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay33
17.74823935 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay24

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZRV-266
12.48999600 Mongol_-_MON-0292
12.80624847 Altaian_Ongudaisky_-_ALT-743
12.88409873 Mongol_Sainnoyon_-_MON-0165

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZRV-168
15.71623365 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
17.05872211 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
18.60107524 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay33

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZM-332
11.48912529 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
14.89966443 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010
15.09966887 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZKT-89
8.42614977 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
11.40175425 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.00000000 Gagauz_-_GAG-226

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZKT-70
11.66190379 Gagauz_-_GAG-183
11.70469991 Moldavian_-_MOL-005
11.70469991 Romanian_-_G408

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZKT-62
10.63014581 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
12.88409873 Gagauz_-_GAG-215
13.00000000 Gagauz_-_GAG-221

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_SZK-130
10.04987562 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
11.40175425 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
11.83215957 Gagauz_-_GAG-226

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_PV-205
16.00000000 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220
16.21727474 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
16.58312395 Tatar_Tomsk_-_TomskTatars1.DG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_PV-200
16.18641406 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
16.70329309 Gagauz_-_GAG-196
16.91153453 Gagauz_-_GAG-221

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_PV-12
14.38749457 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
16.15549442 Gagauz_-_GAG-221
16.24807681 Gagauz_-_GAG-196

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_OBT-51
14.38749457 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
14.79864859 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
15.68438714 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay25

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_OBT-108
6.32455532 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
9.16515139 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012
9.38083152 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_OBH-52
13.49073756 Romanian_-_A325
13.56465997 Romanian_-_G421
13.60147051 Croatian_-_CRO48

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_OBH-37
12.72792206 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
14.14213562 Turkish_-_Turkish8BA62
15.68438714 Turkish_-_Turkish7BA57

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_KK2-670
13.15294644 Khamnegan_-_BUR-500
13.22875656 Buryat_Khorinsky_-_BUR-382
13.37908816 Buryat_Irkutsk_-_BUR-578

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_KK2-445
13.78404875 Kazakh_-_KZH-1614
13.78404875 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19
14.35270009 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-15

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_KK2-441
14.14213562 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-876
15.19868415 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-935
15.49193338 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-900

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_KK1-368
8.42614977 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
11.22497216 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.20655562 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_HH-22
11.95826074 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
12.12435565 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianF2
12.12435565 Romanian_-_G408

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_HH-10
11.44552314 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
12.96148140 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
14.62873884 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-50
10.19803903 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-916
10.53565375 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-876
10.72380529 Khakass_Kachin_-_Khs-422

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-49
13.96424004 Tatar_Volga_-_VolgaTatars1.DG
14.38749457 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-244
14.62873884 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-250

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-43
15.23154621 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
15.32970972 Moldavian_-_MOL-005
15.36229150 Gagauz_-_GAG-183

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-24
9.00000000 Kazakh_-_KZH-1614
9.84885780 Kazakh_Kypchak_-_KZH-1750
10.29563014 Karakalpak_-_KKA-012

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-21
13.85640646 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-19
14.35270009 Nogai_Astrakhan_-_NOG-15
14.96662955 Karakalpak_-_KKA-023

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-19
9.38083152 Kazakh_-_KZH-1614
9.38083152 Kazakh_Kypchak_-_KZH-1750
9.74679434 Karakalpak_-_KKA-012

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-17
13.26649916 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
13.49073756 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
14.66287830 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-14
13.89244399 Finnish_-_HG00181
14.10673598 Hungarian_-_hungary7
14.17744688 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-362

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ARK-11
14.28285686 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
14.56021978 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356
15.06651917 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ALT-596
12.24744871 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.44989960 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
13.26649916 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ALT-412
8.48528137 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
11.61895004 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.20655562 Gagauz_-_GAG-226

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Late_-_ALT-369
14.66287830 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
14.66287830 Spanish_-_HG01500
14.79864859 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle_-_KPM-14
11.00000000 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
13.00000000 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012
13.22875656 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle_-_ALT-77
8.48528137 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
9.48683298 Spanish_-_HG01500
10.34408043 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3_SZF-43
10.77032961 Spanish_-_HG01503
10.86278049 Spanish_-_HG01500
10.95445115 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152

[Lucas]

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5_SE-64
8.77496439 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
9.69535971 Hungarian_-_hungary7
9.94987437 Hungarian_-_NA15201

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4_TCS-18
11.70469991 Croatian_-_CRO107
11.74734012 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
12.28820573 Hungarian_-_hungary7

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_VPB-310
11.09053651 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
11.13552873 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
11.35781669 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-135

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_VPB-167
10.95445115 Ukrainian_North_-_UKR-1903
11.53256259 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
11.61895004 Hungarian_-_NA15205

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_TCS-5
12.48999600 Romanian_-_A306
12.56980509 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
12.56980509 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianF2

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SP-9
12.80624847 Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk_-_STA-211
12.80624847 Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky_-_STA-306
13.22875656 Khakass_Kachin_-_Khs-425

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SP-2
12.36931688 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
13.52774926 Hungarian_-_NA15207
13.56465997 Hungarian_-_hungary7

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SP-10
11.44552314 Bashkir_Ishimbai_-_BAS-150
11.48912529 Bashkir_Ishimbai_-_BAS-164
11.53256259 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SO-5
10.90871211 Bashkir_Kugarchinsky_-_BAS-045
10.95445115 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
11.18033989 Bashkir_Ishimbai_-_BAS-150

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SEO-4
9.84885780 Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen_-_STA-003
10.53565375 Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen_-_STA-004
10.63014581 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SEO-3
11.31370850 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
11.53256259 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
11.53256259 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-135

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SE-23
12.12435565 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356
13.92838828 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
13.92838828 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-436

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SE-16
12.32882801 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
12.64911064 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
13.34166406 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_SE-114
8.54400375 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
9.69535971 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
9.84885780 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_NK-2
13.30413470 Teleut_-_Teleuts2.DG
13.41640786 Kazakh_Argyn_-_KZH-1629
13.49073756 Kazakh_Kypchak_-_KZH-1750

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_MH1-9
13.82027496 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-460
14.59451952 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-362
14.66287830 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-272

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_MH1-4
11.70469991 Bashkir_Kugarchinsky_-_BAS-014
12.48999600 Altaian_Chelkan_-_ALT-092
12.80624847 Mari.SG_-_Mari.SG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_MH1-14
11.74734012 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-094
12.16552506 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-121
12.36931688 Bashkir_Ilishevsky_-_BAS-1392

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_KH-596
11.26942767 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
11.44552314 Spanish_-_HG01500
11.44552314 Spanish_-_HG01503

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_KH-500
12.84523258 Tatar_Siberian_Yalutorovskiy_-_STA-120
13.15294644 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
13.52774926 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K3-13
5.91607978 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-094
6.63324958 Bashkir_Ilishevsky_-_BAS-1394
6.92820323 Bashkir_Ianaul_-_BAS-834

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K3-12
13.00000000 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay45
13.67479433 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay33
14.03566885 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay35

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K2-61
10.44030651 Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk_-_STA-237
11.18033989 Tatar_Irtysh_Barabinsk_-_IrtyshBarabinskTatars2.DG
11.44552314 Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky_-_STA-265

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K2-33
9.11043358 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
10.95445115 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.64911064 Gagauz_-_GAG-226

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K2-18
13.82027496 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-094
14.00000000 Bashkir_Ilishevsky_-_BAS-1394
14.00000000 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K2-16
11.66190379 Even_-_Nlk19
11.78982612 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
12.00000000 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-655

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K1-3286
11.31370850 Kazakh_-_KZH-1614
11.31370850 Kazakh_Kypchak_-_KZH-1750
11.66190379 Karakalpak_-_KKA-009

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K1-10
13.03840481 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-362
13.34166406 Finnish_-_HG00181
13.52774926 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_K1-1
11.40175425 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356
11.44552314 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
11.70469991 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-330

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_CSU-11
10.24695077 Croatian_-_CRO93
10.24695077 Romanian_-_A306
10.34408043 Croatian_-_CRO47

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_BK-2
10.09950494 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
10.48808848 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-330
10.72380529 Tatar_Volga_-_VolgaTatars1.DG

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_AGY-92
12.84523258 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-876
13.03840481 Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky_-_ALT-916
13.41640786 Altaian_Ongudaisky_-_ALT-743

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_AGY-87
13.85640646 Croatian_-_CRO47
13.96424004 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
14.07124728 Romanian_-_A306

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_AGY-75
13.49073756 Ukrainian_North_-_UKR-1903
15.58845727 Russian_Cheremisinovsky_-_Rkuch-58
15.68438714 Russian_Belgorod_-_Rbgp-205

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Elite_-_AGY-49
14.52583905 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
14.66287830 Romanian_-_A306
14.76482306 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv24

[Lucas]

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5_IBE-206
13.00000000 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
13.34166406 Ukrainian_North_-_UKR-1903
13.92838828 Hungarian_-_NA15199

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4_SZA-7
11.61895004 Croatian_-_CRO47
11.61895004 Croatian_-_CRO93
11.78982612 Romanian_-_A306

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3_SH-175
10.14889157 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianF2
10.24695077 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
10.24695077 Moldavian_-_MOL-069

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3_PLE-195
12.04159458 Spanish_-_HG01500
12.04159458 Spanish_-_HG01503
12.44989960 Spanish_-_HG01507

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1_SZOD-376
15.62049935 Sardinian_-_HGDP00673
15.81138830 Sardinian_-_HGDP00666
16.03121954 Sardinian_-_HGDP00670

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_VPB-588
11.22497216 Spanish_-_HG01503
11.57583690 Spanish_-_HG01500
11.66190379 Spanish_-_HG01507

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_VPB-561
11.95826074 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
12.00000000 Finnish_-_HG00181
12.32882801 Hungarian_-_hungary7

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZOD-566
10.14889157 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-129
11.13552873 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-220
11.74734012 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia_-_nogay25

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZOD-426
14.14213562 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
14.42220510 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-330
14.52583905 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZOD-394
11.91637529 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
12.20655562 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.40967365 French_-_French23821

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZA-52
12.60952021 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
13.07669683 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
13.19090596 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-121

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZA-44
8.24621125 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
8.60232527 Spanish_-_HG01500
8.94427191 Spanish_-_HG01503

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZA-29
9.00000000 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
9.48683298 Hungarian_-_hungary7
9.64365076 Hungarian_-_NA15207

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SZA-20
11.13552873 Spanish_-_HG01503
11.66190379 Spanish_-_HG01500
11.66190379 Spanish_-_HG01507

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-98
9.21954446 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
10.14889157 Czech_-_NA15728
10.14889157 English_-_HG00233

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-81
12.20655562 Romanian_-_A306
12.32882801 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
12.44989960 Croatian_-_CRO66

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-66
11.91637529 Spanish_-_HG01503
12.28820573 Spanish_-_HG01512
12.32882801 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-251
10.24695077 Hungarian_-_NA15199
10.29563014 Hungarian_-_hungary15
10.39230485 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-182
10.39230485 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
10.48808848 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianF2
10.58300524 Romanian_-_G408

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-143
12.08304597 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356
12.52996409 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
12.92284798 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-330

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_SH-106
12.04159458 Hungarian_-_NA15205
12.16552506 Ukrainian_North_-_UKR-1903
12.28820573 Czech_-_NA15728

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-57
11.83215957 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
12.16552506 Spanish_-_HG01500
12.32882801 Spanish_-_HG01503

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-38
13.19090596 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
13.85640646 English_-_HG00233
13.96424004 Hungarian_-_hungary7

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-28
10.77032961 Bashkir_Ianaul_-_BAS-813
10.86278049 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-217
11.13552873 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-249

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-23
8.54400375 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
9.16515139 Hungarian_-_hungary7
9.38083152 Hungarian_-_NA15199

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-216
13.67479433 Nogai_Stavropol_-_NOG-125
16.97056275 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-094
17.00000000 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_PLE-200
9.16515139 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-091
9.16515139 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-096
9.27361850 Bashkir_Ishimbai_-_BAS-164

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_NTH-20
9.94987437 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
10.09950494 Romanian_-_A306
10.19803903 Croatian_-_CRO47

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_NTH-2
12.56980509 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-362
13.30413470 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-241
13.60147051 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-356

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_NTH-19
13.07669683 Spanish_-_HG01500
13.30413470 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
13.30413470 Spanish_-_HG01503

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_NTH-1
13.22875656 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-105
13.52774926 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-094
13.67479433 Tatar_Kazan_-_TTR-330

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_IBE-176
10.24695077 Romanian_-_A306
10.53565375 Croatian_-_CRO93
10.53565375 Romanian_-_A325

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_IBE-161
10.81665383 Spanish_-_HG01503
11.09053651 Bulgarian_-_BulgarianA4
11.09053651 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_IBE-154
8.94427191 Hungarian_-_HungarianD1
9.05538514 Croatian_-_CRO53
9.05538514 Croatian_-_CRO93

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-88
13.37908816 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
13.56465997 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
13.85640646 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-135

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-86
7.00000000 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
10.34408043 Greek.WGA_-_TLA010
10.44030651 Greek.WGA_-_TLA012

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-50
10.39230485 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-362
10.44030651 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-241
10.86278049 Tatar_Mishar_-_TTR-271

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-5
11.53256259 Greek.WGA_-_TLA015
11.91637529 Italian_North_-_HGDP01152
13.11487705 Spanish_-_HG01500

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-43
14.31782106 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
14.96662955 Hungarian_-_hungary7
15.09966887 Hungarian_-_NA15199

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-245
13.96424004 English_-_HG00233
14.00000000 Croatian_-_CRO47
14.07124728 Spanish_-_HG01503

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-231
10.86278049 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-120
10.90871211 Bashkir_Arkhangelsk_-_BAS-622
11.31370850 Bashkir_Davlekanovo_-_BAS-135

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-229
12.56980509 Croatian_-_CRO47
12.76714533 English_-_HG00233
12.84523258 Hungarian_-_NA15208

Distance to: OWN_Hungary_Conq_Commoner_-_HMSZ-157
12.20655562 Ukrainian_Lviv_-_UkrLv240
12.24744871 Hungarian_-_NA15199
12.28820573 Hungarian_-_NA15205

[Lucas]

I think those "Southerners" are not only post-Roman remnants but rather Illyrians.

[Dunai]

Okay i accept the uralic origin of conquerors, the turkic theory seems outdated. But if the conquerors brought the hungarian language why are these locals used hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds? There is no hungarian sources about the conquest nowadays, because the tatars burned everything, but when Anonymus lived and wrote the Gesta Hungarorum these original sources are still existed, and this book is based on these original sources about conquest, and this is the most authentic source about the conquest and the ethnic and politic relations in the Carpathian Basin. And Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity, who lived here before nomad magyars. Another fact, in the medieval Hungary this hungarus vs conqueror identity still existed, the noble class considered themselves as descedants of the 7 conqueror tribe, but the hungarian speaker peasants had hungarus identity and they did not identify themselves with the conquerors. The academic hungarian historical science also take differece between the hungarus (commoners) and the conquerors (elite), this is also fact.

Gesta Hungarorum is a not a scientific written document, but is a child of its time, when authors combined real documents with legends and myths. Only a critical and careful analysis of its content should be applied whenever quoting anything from it and claim them as historical facts.

http://arpad.btk.mta.hu/14-magyar-ostorteneti-temacsoport/260-anonymus-es-a-honfoglalas.html

[Dunai]

Less than you think. More Hungarians need to do thorough DNA testing and wake up to who they are.

My Hungarian average is based on ca. 400 carefully selected Modern Hungarians, and pretty much representative, and based on my most recent custom-made calculator it still shows the closest eastern affinity to modern Uralic populations and not to Central Asian Turkics. Volga Tatars are more Uralic than Turkic:

Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.4934% / 0.49335421 | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.3 Eastcentral_European
30.6 West_Balkanic
23.1 Southeast_German
4.0 Volga_Uralic_(Tatar)

Target: Volga Tatar
Distance: 0.7648% / 0.76477083 | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.8 West_Uralic
27.0 Crimean_Tatar
16.0 Volga_Uralic_(Udmurt)
11.0 West_Balkanic
6.2 Volga_Uralic_(Chuvash)

Of course you do you and keep up this Central Asian Turanist agenda, but maybe doesn't hurt also to know the facts on which your are basing this agenda on.

[Jana]

Exotic admix in Stears seems to be mixed Uralo-Turkic (Mishar Tatars) and "Aryan"/Iranic (Pamiris), perfectly reflecting Hungarian ethnogenesis.

Target: Stears
Distance: 1.1541% / 1.15411173 | ADC: 0.5x RC

45.7 Moldovan_North
42.7 Hungarian_North
7.5 Tatar_Mishar
4.1 Pamiri_Ishkashim

His Moldovan like admix is from his Szekely half ofc.

[Jana]

So, Stears is over 10% conqueror like (old Magyar). Remarkable result.

[Dunai]

Exotic admix in Stears seems to be mixed Uralo-Turkic (Mishar Tatars) and "Aryan"/Iranic (Pamiris), perfectly reflecting Hungarian ethnogenesis.

Target: Stears
Distance: 1.1541% / 1.15411173 | ADC: 0.5x RC

45.7 Moldovan_North
42.7 Hungarian_North
7.5 Tatar_Mishar
4.1 Pamiri_Ishkashim

His Moldovan like admix is from his Szekely half ofc.

Yes, some individual Hungarians will show higher eastern affinity with Central Asian Turkic people than with Uralic people, just like myself, but when we speak of population genetics we never make our conclusions based on individual results but mainly take population averages into consideration. Only some users here seem to be that stubborn that they love to create big agendas based on individual results and claim they are representative on the entire people. Even Transylvania Hungarians show closer eastern affinity to Uralic region than with Central Asia:

Target: Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
Distance: 0.4675% / 0.46751498 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.7 West_Balkanic
37.7 Pannonian
9.1 Southwest_German
8.7 Northeast_Italian
4.8 Volga_Uralic_(Bashkir)
0.7 Crimean_Tatar
0.3 West_Greenlandic

[Jana]

^^^^Mishar Tatars are heavily Uralic admixed as well, even more than Volga ones iirc. But they will have Turkic blood as well ofc.

Distance to: Tatar_Mishar

5.91624881 Tatar_Kazan
9.85970588 Komi
10.33495525 Bashkir_North
10.84001384 Chuvash
11.23540386 Besermyan_Udmurtia

[Jana]

Yes, some individual Hungarians will show higher eastern affinity with Central Asian Turkic people than with Uralic people, just like myself, but when we speak of population genetics we never make our conclusions based on individual results but mainly take population averages into consideration. Only some users here seem to be that stubborn that they love to create big agendas based on individual results and claim they are representative on the entire people. Even Transylvania Hungarians show closer eastern affinity to Uralic region than with Central Asia:

Target: Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
Distance: 0.4675% / 0.46751498 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.7 West_Balkanic
37.7 Pannonian
9.1 Southwest_German
8.7 Northeast_Italian
4.8 Volga_Uralic_(Bashkir)
0.7 Crimean_Tatar
0.3 West_Greenlandic

Why would you say some ethnic Hungarians like you and Stears have notable conqueror like ancestry while some others have none?
I know you explored your geneaology and have Hungarian speaking ancestors centuries back expect some Schwabs and Slovaks in great majority. So does Stears.

Would you say ethnic Hungarians who lack conqueror like input represent more lately assimilated Slavic and/or German minorities (last 200 years for eg.)?
While those who have conqueror like admix represent population with longer continuity of Hungarian speaking ancestors?

[Blondie]

Gesta Hungarorum is a not a scientific written document, but is a child of its time, when authors combined real documents with legends and myths. Only a critical and careful analysis of its content should be applied whenever quoting anything from it and claim them as historical facts.

http://arpad.btk.mta.hu/14-magyar-ostorteneti-temacsoport/260-anonymus-es-a-honfoglalas.html

Of course Anonymus knew much more information about the conquest, then the modern historians 1100 years later without any original document. As i said these original sources about the magyar conquest are still existed when Anonymus lived (these were destroyed by tatars later), he is more trustworthy than modern historians who are just guessing things because of lack of original documents. This is the reason why the hungarian prehistory is changing almost in every decade, because they have no idea how it happened exactly. There are many thing in the Gesta Hungarorum what other medieval sources or the modern archaeology confirmed, for example the transylvanian vlachs (you also can read it in the Nestor's Chronicle) or the roman survivors in Pannonia etc, or the bulgars too. Or the hungarus vs conqueror identity in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary. This is just laughable to claim that the Gesta Hungarorum is sci fi.

[Scandal]

Would you say ethnic Hungarians who lack conqueror like input represent more lately assimilated Slavic and/or German minorities (last 200 years for eg.)?

Why last 200 years? Hungarians assimilated and mixed with non-hungarian speakers before 18th century. I think hungarians were genetically very European by the time magyarization started.

[Dunai]

Of course Anonymus knew much more information about the conquest, then the modern historians 1100 years later without any original document. As i said these original sources about the magyar conquest are still existed when Anonymus lived (these were destroyed by tatars later), he is more trustworthy than modern historians who are just guessing things because of lack of original documents. This is the reason why the hungarian prehistory is changing almost in every decade, because they have no idea how it happened exactly. There are many thing in the Gesta Hungarorum what other medieval sources or the modern archaeology confirmed, for example the transylvanian vlachs (you also can read it in the Nestor's Chronicle) or the roman survivors in Pannonia etc, or the bulgars too. Or the hungarus vs conqueror identity in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary. This is just laughable to claim that the Gesta Hungarorum is sci fi.

It's not me who is claiming that the Gesta Hungarorum is not a 100% scientific document but modern historians whose job is to research the validity of historical documents. Modern archeology, study of historic documents and archeogenetics is also as important, if not even more important scientifically as any contemporary historical source, which are products of their time when the idea of scientific rigor wasn't even a concept. You are a true believer, while I prefer to stick to demonstrable facts and I actually want to know and not believe things. You can't understand 8th and 9th century Carpathian Basin history only from a manuscript written 3 centuries later, that's absolutely baffling you can even claim such a thing.

[Jana]

Why last 200 years? Hungarians assimilated and mixed with non-hungarian speakers before 18th century. I think hungarians were genetically very European by the time magyarization started.

Not sure about exact time frame, but approximately. It's just that I assume there might be correlation of people who can trace back soley Hungarian speaking ancestors (without Slavic or German names) and presence of Old Magyar ancestry. It's a theory that is yet to be explored, but possible nonetheless.


I think hungarians were genetically very European by the time magyarization started.

Yes, surely. But they could harbor minor "exotic" stuff later assimilants didn't have. (my speculation)

[Dunai]

Why would you say some ethnic Hungarians like you and Stears have notable conqueror like ancestry while some others have none?
I know you explored your geneaology and have Hungarian speaking ancestors centuries back expect some Schwabs and Slovaks in great majority. So does Stears.

Would you say ethnic Hungarians who lack conqueror like input represent more lately assimilated Slavic and/or German minorities (last 200 years for eg.)?
While those who have conqueror like admix represent population with longer continuity of Hungarian speaking ancestors?

We can always speculate why some inherited such genes while others didn't, but since none of us knows our complete family tree than it is just how it is and it was due to random recombination and inheritance of genes I guess.

[Blondie]

It's not me who is claiming that the Gesta Hungarorum is not a 100% scientific document but modern historians whose job is to research the validity of historical documents. Modern archeology, study of historic documents and archeogenetics is also as important, if not even more important scientifically as any contemporary historical source, which are products of their time when the idea of scientific rigor wasn't even a concept. You are a true believer, while I prefer to stick to demonstrable facts and I actually want to know and not believe things. You can't understand 8th and 9th century Carpathian Basin history only from a manuscript written 3 centuries later, that's absolutely baffling you can even claim such a thing.

Laughable, you also a beliver because you and these historians have no idea about the events exactly, there are many scientific theory too, and we can just guessing things from the very limited greek and arabic sources or the genetic. Yes Anonymus is more valid who saw the original documents of the conquest of magyars, what tatars destroyed completely, then modern historians 1100 years later who firstly thought pre-hungarian were uralic, after that iranic, 2-3 years ago they said they were turkic and now it seems conquerors are uralic again. This is what i'm talking about, the historians just guessing things, i belive in Anonymus more.

[Dunai]

Laughable, you also a beliver because you and these historians have no idea about the events exactly, there are many scientific theory too, and we can just guessing things from the very limited greek and arabic sources or the genetic. Yes Anonymus is more valid who saw the original documents of the conquest of magyars, what tatars destroyed completely, then modern historians 1100 years later who firstly thought pre-hungarian were uralic, after that iranic, 2-3 years ago they said they were turkic and now it seems conquerors are uralic again. This is what i'm talking about, the historians just guessing things, i belive in Anonymus more.

Just like I said, you a true believer :)

[Blondie]

Just like I said, you a true believer :)

You too.

[Scandal]

Not sure about exact time frame, but approximately. It's just that I assume there might be correlation of people who can trace back soley Hungarian speaking ancestors (without Slavic or German names) and presence of Old Magyar ancestry. It's a theory that is yet to be explored, but possible nonetheless.



Yes, surely. But they could harbor minor "exotic" stuff later assimilants didn't have. (my speculation)
There may be a slight correlation.
However surnames are overrated imo. Hungarians (except nobility) didn't have surnames until 1500s.
There used to be a slavic speaking population in western Hungary before the hungarian conquest (which may have persisted for a few centuries after hungarian conquest). The words Balaton and Danube are of Slavic origin. Today there aren't Slavs in those places. That means descendants of those Slavs have hungarian surnames today because surnames were introduced only 500-600 years later. Someone who has only hungarian surnames in his family tree between year 1700 and 2000 can have non-hungarian ancestors further back. Nevertheless I do think it's possible that there's a correlation between a person's conqueror ancestry and frequency of hungarian surnames in his family tree.

[Turul Karom]

My Hungarian average is based on ca. 400 carefully selected Modern Hungarians, and pretty much representative, and based on my most recent custom-made calculator it still shows the closest eastern affinity to modern Uralic populations and not to Central Asian Turkics. Volga Tatars are more Uralic than Turkic:

Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.4934% / 0.49335421 | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.3 Eastcentral_European
30.6 West_Balkanic
23.1 Southeast_German
4.0 Volga_Uralic_(Tatar)

Target: Volga Tatar
Distance: 0.7648% / 0.76477083 | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.8 West_Uralic
27.0 Crimean_Tatar
16.0 Volga_Uralic_(Udmurt)
11.0 West_Balkanic
6.2 Volga_Uralic_(Chuvash)

Of course you do you and keep up this Central Asian Turanist agenda, but maybe doesn't hurt also to know the facts on which your are basing this agenda on.

How about you actually talk about my points from post #15 rather than accusing me of a conspiracy, considering they are apparently so inconvenient for your claims that you've ignored them completely? How about not just making up what I'm saying and actually engage with the topic? Thus far, everything you type to me is always some ridiculous tangent about things I've never even claimed. It would be less egregious if you at least had something to say about my points in good faith rather than weasel away.


So, Stears is over 10% conqueror like (old Magyar). Remarkable result.

I score many Turkic groups across multiple companies and calculators. I believe this is because of our Szekler ancestry, potentially. However, I do not think that Szeklers are more Turkic/conqueror because of being a different tribal group but because we simply lived while other Hungarian populations were wiped out in some areas.


There may be a slight correlation.
However surnames are overrated imo. Hungarians (except nobility) didn't have surnames until 1500s.
There used to be a slavic speaking population in western Hungary before the hungarian conquest (which may have persisted for a few centuries after hungarian conquest). The words Balaton and Danube are of Slavic origin. Today there aren't Slavs in those places. That means descendants of those Slavs have hungarian surnames today because surnames were introduced only 500-600 years later. Someone who has only hungarian surnames in his family tree between year 1700 and 2000 can have non-hungarian ancestors further back. Nevertheless I do think it's possible that there's a correlation between a person's conqueror ancestry and frequency of hungarian surnames in his family tree.

Interestingly, if you are able to go back far enough, you could find other areas of interest from where you family could be from in Hungary. Though there is hardly a way to show if you have actual Cuman or something specific to a Turkic tribe from 500 years ago without an incredibly rare paper trail, it would be interesting to see more studies around this, too. I don't think surnames would be a way to know for sure about conqueror ancestry. More DNA tests on 100% certain Conqueror graves and modern Hungarians is the only reliable result to expand the scope for the full Hungarian population.

[Roy]

We can always speculate why some inherited such genes while others didn't, but since none of us knows our complete family tree than it is just how it is and it was due to random recombination and inheritance of genes I guess.

Yeah, people underrate the randomness of our genome inheritance. And in case of some exotic ancestors like Rouran/Xiongnu/Hunns it is perfectly possible for some person who has a similar / identical number of such ancestors from previous 1000 to actually score much less on one's DNA test than someone else.

[rothaer]

We can always speculate why some inherited such genes while others didn't, but since none of us knows our complete family tree than it is just how it is and it was due to random recombination and inheritance of genes I guess.

Two hundred years back the family tree can be well known if someone has made genealogy. If I got Stearsolina's theory right, that should be sufficient as her theory is restricted to such an approach.

As for random recombination one should see whether the results are gaussian distributed or not. But then you need rather much data. Likely it's easier to check just kind of 6 individuals, 3 of them having Hungarian-only ancestors 200 years ago and the 3 others not. That could yield a notable indication already.

[Dunai]

How about you actually talk about my points from post #15 rather than accusing me of a conspiracy, considering they are apparently so inconvenient for your claims that you've ignored them completely? How about not just making up what I'm saying and actually engage with the topic? Thus far, everything you type to me is always some ridiculous tangent about things I've never even claimed. It would be less egregious if you at least had something to say about my points in good faith rather than weasel away.



I score many Turkic groups across multiple companies and calculators. I believe this is because of our Szekler ancestry, potentially. However, I do not think that Szeklers are more Turkic/conqueror because of being a different tribal group but because we simply lived while other Hungarian populations were wiped out in some areas.



Interestingly, if you are able to go back far enough, you could find other areas of interest from where you family could be from in Hungary. Though there is hardly a way to show if you have actual Cuman or something specific to a Turkic tribe from 500 years ago without an incredibly rare paper trail, it would be interesting to see more studies around this, too. I don't think surnames would be a way to know for sure about conqueror ancestry. More DNA tests on 100% certain Conqueror graves and modern Hungarians is the only reliable result to expand the scope for the full Hungarian population.

It's not my problem that you can't interpret a scientific paper. There's nothing you wrote in that post that proves Hungarian Conquerors were Central Asian Turkic people. All the quotations I presented from the article state that Turkic genetic input was minor among them, around 15%, which is notable but not at all substantial. I never spoke about culture and religious aspects but strictly genetics, that is a way different topic. You can create a new thread in which you can speak about none-genetics aspects of Hungarian Conquerors.

[rothaer]

Okay i accept the uralic origin of conquerors, the turkic theory seems outdated. But if the conquerors brought the hungarian language why are these locals used hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds? There is no hungarian sources about the conquest nowadays, because the tatars burned everything, but when Anonymus lived and wrote the Gesta Hungarorum these original sources are still existed, and this book is based on these original sources about conquest, and this is the most authentic source about the conquest and the ethnic and politic relations in the Carpathian Basin. And Anonymus clearly talked about the hungarus ethnicity, who lived here before nomad magyars. Another fact, in the medieval Hungary this hungarus vs conqueror identity still existed, the noble class considered themselves as descedants of the 7 conqueror tribe, but the hungarian speaker peasants had hungarus identity and they did not identify themselves with the conquerors. The academic hungarian historical science also take differece between the hungarus (commoners) and the conquerors (elite), this is also fact.

1. I'd guess there were ethnically different tribes. Arthur Koestler wrote in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that there was even one (or more?) tribe said to be observant to Jewish laws. (It was a long time ago that I read it and unfortunately I don't recall the exact source.) So having some Turkic Khazar tribe among them seems well possible.

2. Can you briefly tell how is determeined that someone used Hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds?

3. I appreciate all old sources including Gesta Hungarorum, but there could well be an erroneous statement. The reputation of that text in the aspect of authenticity is not the best.

[Turul Karom]

It's not my problem that you can't interpret a scientific paper. There's nothing you wrote in that post that proves Hungarian Conquerors were Central Asian Turkic people. All the quotations I presented from the article state that Turkic genetic input was minor among them, around 15%, which is notable but not at all substantial. I never spoke about culture and religious aspects but strictly genetics, that is a way different topic. You can create a new thread in which you can speak about none-genetics aspects of Hungarian Conquerors.

It's not my problem if you don't know the Latin alphabet or know how to count, then. You've waxed poetic about Uralics and haplogroup N in post #4, but completely ignore the dominance of R1. Not only is N a minority, but it is not even the largest haplogroup by %. Yet you claim that these must be the "core" of the conquerors because N is associated with Mansi? Amazingly talented leap of faith. You're the one who had to frame the article in post #4. Also, 15%? Really? Is it because you are again, like so many other people, attributing "Turkicness" to exclusively East Asian admixture? Now you are just making the lines tighter intentionally as to what is "Turkic" so as to again, minimize the input.

At least now we live in a time where the question is not "if" but "how much." You can move your goalposts all you'd like, but you will never erase these facts without erasing the Hungarian identity.

[Nanushka]

actually I have a couple of words on interpretations of this study too




Hungarian Conquerors
"The Conquerors, who arrived in the Carpathian Basin after the Avars, had distinct genomic background with elevated levels of western Eurasian admixture. They carried very similar genomes to modern Bashkirs and Tatars, in agreement with our previous results from
uniparental markers. Their genomes were shaped by several admixture events, of which the most fundamental was the Mezhovskaya-Nganasan admixture around the late Bronze Age, leading to the formation of a “proto-Ugric” gene pool. This was part of a general
demographic process, when most Steppe_MLBA populations received an eastern Khovsgol related Siberian influx together with a BMAC influx, and ANA related admixture became ubiquitous on the eastern Steppe establishing the Scytho-Siberian gene pool. Consequently
proto-Ugric groups could be part of the early Scytho-Siberian societies of the late Bronze Age-early Iron Age steppe-forest zone in the northern Kazakhstan region, in the proximity of the Mezhovskaya territory.

Our data support linguistic models, which predicted that Conquerors and Mansis had a common early history. Then Mansis migrated northward, probably during the Iron Age, and in isolation they preserved their Bronze-Age genomes. In contrast the Conquerors stayed
at the steppe-forest zone and admixed with Iranian speaking early Sarmatians, also attested by the presence of Iranian loanwords in the Hungarian language. This admixture likely happened when Sarmatians rose to power and started to integrate their neighboring tribes
before they occupied the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

This seems a good study with good findings but some interpretations here and in the thread I noticed dont fit in modern academia and sound insistingly keeping the old cliche. Not all the Sarmatians spoke iranian, you should accept the fact that Scythians as a whole were predominantly proto-Turkic especially their rulers, Royal Scythians spoke Turkic so did their branches like Sarmatians and Cimmerians, many academicians like Kazi Laypanov, Myrfatih Zakiev and Zaur Hasanov wrote about this fact. Iranic groups were only peripheral peoples in the south like maybe Sogdians that they ruled and probably got mixed later on, so I laugh at this term 'iranic' when someone try to use it as if this was a major or ruling class.

Secondly Ural itself is a Turkic word, there is no etymological explanation of it other than Turkic in the whole world, which contains the ancient root word 'Ur' that used to denote proto-Turks, just like Tur, Tar or As, so Ur-al refers to ancient Turks only and this is an academic fact. It keeps on living in the names or surnames in Turks today and this is the case that you can only find among Turkics, and it tells a lot. So whoever we are talking in terms of Uralic, those peoples are either Turkics or share a serious history with Turks. The theory of Altaic origin of Turks in a big hoax today and severely subject to criticism, someway discarded already, professors like Osman Karatay and Mehmet Bayraktar are the proponents of Uralic theory. This theory spans the earliest times of Turks, not a thousand year ago or two

The term Ugor is not far from Turkic origin either, it has been debated if it is an ethnonym related to Ogur and Uygur, soon will be out. Genetically that Finn-Ugric y-DNA N1C1 belongs to Turkic Yakut-Sakha people tells a lot about this kinship



Huns
"The genomic history of Huns Avars and Conquerors revealed in this study reconciles with historical, archaeological and linguistic sources. Our data shows that the leader strata of both European Huns and Avars originated from the area of the former Xiongnu Empire, from present day Mongolia, and both groups can be traced back to early Xiongnu ancestors. Northern Xiongnus were expelled from Mongolia in the second century CE, and during their westward migration Sarmatians were one of the largest groups they confronted. Sergey Botalov presumed the formation of a Hun-Sarmatian mixed culture in the Ural region before the appearance of Huns in Europe22, which fits the significant Sarmatian ancestry detected in our Hun samples, though this ancestry had been present in late Xiongnus as well. Thus our data are in accordance with the Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns, claimed by several historians. We also detected Goth- or other German-type genomes among our Hun period samples, again consistent with historical sources."

Avars
"Our data are compatible with the Rouran origin of Avar elite, though the single low coverage Rouran genome provided a poor fit in the qpAm models. The elite preserved very ancient east Asian genomes with undisputable origin, as had been also inferred from Y-Hg data, however just half of the Avar-cline individuals had Avar_Asia_Core ancestry, implicating diverse origin of the Avar population. Our models
indicate that the Avars incorporated groups with Xiongnu/Hun_Asia_Core and Iranian ancestries, presumably the remnants of the European Huns and Alans or other Iranian peoples on the Pontic Steppe, as suggested by Kim 2013. People with different origin were
seemingly distinguished, as samples with Hun-related genomes were buried in separate cemeteries."

This part needs historical clarification otherwise may be misleading. Avars and Huns did have Scythian ancestry and Avars are coming from a certain branch of Huns, namely White Huns who also included Kidarites-Kionites (Red Huns) and were later on joined by Hephtalites. And they were ruled by leading clan called 'Var(Uar)-Hun' who were allies with Juan-Juans (Rourans as passed in the article). This alliance brought about the end of White Huns as they were attacked by the Turkish Kaganate who claimed Rouran elites. The crucial thing is White Huns made royal marriages to Rourans causing some mixing with them overall in the population. This must have been the reason for the east Asian genomes and some mongoloid characteristics found in Avar graves today. Rourans were mainly mongoloid, so it is no wonder. And not to mention its existence among Huns as a whole since they been to today's Mongolia and mixed with some sinid populations to certain degrees

These are also historical facts that should be taken into consideration other than the westerner interpretations and should be made reference to

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Modern averages


Abazin,37.25,34.25,0,1,19.5,5.125,3.125
Abkhasian,47.6666667,37.8888889,0,0,14,0.6666667,0
Adygei_Krasnodar,39.2,35.6,0,0.5,20.8,2.5,1.1
Adygei_Shovgenovsky,38.7,36,0,0.5,20.2,2.8,1.5
Alaskan_Athabskan,0,0,3,0,18,67,11
Albanian,17.5,53.5,0,5.3333333,22.8333333,0.333333 3,0.5
Aleut,2,23,0,7.8571429,34.2857143,29.1428571,4
Altaian_Chelkan,4.25,11.5,0.25,1.375,28,38.375,16. 125
Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky,5.6666667,9,0.1666667,0.6666667,12.166666 7,45.6666667,26.5
Altaian_Ongudaisky,4.5555556,8.2222222,0,0.3333333 ,13.1111111,46.6666667,26.7777778
Armenian,45.2,44.2,0,0,10.3,0.1,0
Armenian_Hemsheni,43.25,43.375,0,0.75,12.25,0.125, 0
Assyrian,46.5,43.6,0,0.1,9.3,0.2,0.1
Avar,39.1111111,28.6666667,0,0.1111111,31.3333333, 0.8888889,0
Azeri,42.4444444,37,0,0.1111111,13.3333333,3.11111 11,4
Azeri_Dagestan,41.125,34.625,0,0.5,18.125,1.75,3.3 75
Balkar,37.8,35,0,0.5,19.7,4,2.9
Bashkir_Arkhangelsk,6.7142857,24.1428571,0,5.28571 43,32,23.7142857,8.1428571
Bashkir_Baimaksky,8.125,19,0,3.125,27.5,30.25,11.8 75
Bashkir_Davlekanovo,9.4444444,25.4444444,0,6.11111 11,30.1111111,21.7777778,7.1111111
Bashkir_Ianaul,7.125,27.375,0,6.625,34.25,20.375,4 .125
Bashkir_Ilishevsky,8.1666667,27.6666667,0,6.333333 3,33.5,19.6666667,4.6666667
Bashkir_Ishimbai,8.25,21,0,4,28.25,28,10.5
Bashkir_Karaidelsky,6.5,25.75,0,5.5,33.5,22.5,5.75
Bashkir_Kugarchinsky,7.8571429,20.1428571,0,3.4285 714,27.8571429,30.2857143,10.8571429
Basque,6.2,54.3,0,14.3,24.9,0,0.2
Belarusian,4.3,40.9,0,12.8,40.8,0.6,0.6
Besermyan,7,25.8333333,0,6,38.5,21.5,0.8333333
Bulgarian,15,49.8888889,0,6.6666667,27.5555556,0.4 444444,0.4444444
Buryat_Aginsky,3.8,4.6,0,0.4,4,53.2,34.4
Buryat_Duldurginsky,3.5,5,0,0.5,3.25,51.75,36.5
Buryat_Irkutsk,3.9,5.4,0,0.8,4,52.4,33.8
Buryat_Khorinsky,3.6,5,0,0.2,3.4,53.2,34.6
Buryat_Zakamensky,4,5.1666667,0,0.3333333,3.666666 7,53.3333333,33.6666667
Chechen,39.4444444,33.2222222,0,0,24.6666667,1.666 6667,0.6666667
Chukchi,0,0,0,0,10.2,89.7,0
Chuvash_Cheboksary,5.5,27.6,0,8,35.7,20.9,2.3
Chuvash_Tatarstan,5,29.6666667,0,8.5,37,18.1666667 ,2
Circassian,37.4444444,34.8888889,0,0.6666667,20,3. 7777778,3
Croatian,9.9,47.9,0,8.8,32.9,0,0.4
Cypriot,35.125,53.375,0,0.75,10,0.25,0.5
Czech,6.3,44.6,0,11,37.8,0.1,0.2
Dai,0,0,0,0,0.1,0,99.9
Darginian,38.625,27.875,0,0,32.875,0.625,0
Daur,0.6666667,1.4444444,0,0,0.4444444,35.4444444, 61.7777778
Dolgan,1.75,6,0,1,5.5,68.75,17.25
Dungan,5,3.5,0,0.1,3.8,12.6,75.1
Enets,0,6.3333333,0,1.6666667,16.3333333,75.666666 7,0
English,5.7,46.4,0,10.5,37.1,0,0
Estonian,0.6,38.3,0,14.2,44.9,1.5,0.4
Even,1.3333333,13.6666667,0,3.6666667,12.8888889,5 7.1111111,11.4444444
Evenk_FarEast,0.6,7.2,0,2,6.4,54,29.8
Evenk_Transbaikal,0.5,2.625,0,0.375,1,88.125,7.625
Ezid,47.375,35.625,0.375,1.375,11.875,2.5,1
Finnish,1.6,37.2,0,12.7,41.8,6.6,0.3
French,7.5,52.1,0.1,12.4,27.6,0,0.1
Gagauz,17.5555556,48.4444444,0.1111111,6,25.888888 9,1.5555556,0.4444444
Georgian,47.3333333,41.3333333,0,0,11.1666667,0,0
Georgian_Turkey,46.1428571,40.8571429,0.2857143,0, 11.5714286,0.7142857,0.4285714
Georgian_Zugdidi,49.125,39.25,0,0,11.875,0,0
Greek.WGA,19.7,52.7,1.2,4.8,21,0.2,0.5
Hezhen,0.25,0.25,0,0,0.125,39,60.5
Hungarian,8.1,45.95,0,10.15,34.75,0.6,0.65
Icelandic,4.125,43.625,0,12,40,0,0
Ingushian,39.3,34.2,0,0.2,22.6,2.5,1.2
Italian_North,14.6,54.9,0.3,7.3,22.8,0,0
Italian_South,25,53.75,0,3.75,16.75,0,0.25
Itelmen,0,0,0,0,9,90.4285714,0.4285714
Kabardinian,35.1111111,34.8888889,0,0.5555556,21.2 222222,5.6666667,2.4444444
Kaitag,37.75,29.5,0,0,32.25,0.5,0
Kalmyk,3.9,7.4,0,0.4,7,41.6,39.8
Karachai,38.7,33.7,0,0.7,20.2,4.3,3
Karakalpak,12.9,16.7,0,2,14.8,29,24.7
Karelian,0.3,35.7,0,13.6,42.2,8,0.1
Kazakh,9.3333333,14.6666667,0.6666667,2,13.3333333 ,30.3333333,29.3333333
Kazakh_Argyn,9.6666667,11.6666667,0.3333333,2.3333 333,12.3333333,33.6666667,30.3333333
Kazakh_Kypchak,9.1666667,13,0,0.8333333,13.6666667 ,32.8333333,30.8333333
Kazakh_Naiman,9.3333333,13.5,0,1.5,13.5,31.6666667 ,30.1666667
Ket,0,4,0,0.1,27.8,67.9,0
Khakass_Askizskiy,3.3333333,9.3333333,0.1666667,0. 5,22.3333333,46,18.6666667
Khakass_Beiskiy,4,7,0,0.4,17,49.6,22.2
Khakass_Kachin,3.875,9.875,0,1,19.375,44.5,21.25
Khamnegan,2.7,4.5,0,0.5,3.2,54.2,34.8
Kubachinian,40.3333333,27.6666667,0,0,31.8333333,0 .1666667,0
Kumyk,37.75,34.625,0,0.25,22.625,2.875,2.125
Kurd,48.875,36.5,0,0.375,12.375,1.25,0.75
Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG,8,11.1,0,0.5,12.4,33.9,34
Kyrgyz_Tajikistan,10.75,10.75,0,1,13,32,32.75
Lak,39,28.1111111,0,0,32.1111111,0.7777778,0.11111 11
Lezgin,40.3333333,31.2222222,0,0,27.3333333,0.8888 889,0.4444444
Lithuanian,0.9,39.3,0,15.5,44.2,0,0.2
Mansi,0.1111111,12.5555556,0,2.8888889,34.7777778, 49.5555556,0
Mari.SG,4,23,0,8,36,27,1
Miao,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Moldavian,15.4,49.8,0,6.2,27.3,1.1,0.3
Mongol,4.5,5.1,0,0.3,4.9,41.3,43.9
Mongol_Sainnoyon,3.875,5.125,0,0,3.625,42,44.75
Mongol_Zasagt,3.5714286,4.7142857,0,0.4285714,4.71 42857,40.7142857,46
Mongola,0.6666667,1.6666667,0,0,2,21.5,74.5
Mordovian,5.4,35.4,0,11.1,40.4,6.4,1.7
Nanai,0,0,0,0,0,58.2,41.8
Naxi,0.1111111,0,0,0,0,8.7777778,91.1111111
Negidal,0,0,0,0,0,65,35
Nganasan,0,0,0,0.1,1.2,98.6,0
Nivh,0,0,0,0,0,57,43
Nogai_Astrakhan,9.3333333,18,0,2.1666667,17,27.5,2 5.8333333
Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia,26.2222222,28.4444444,0, 1.4444444,19.5555556,12.4444444,11.5555556
Nogai_Stavropol,13.1,20.3,0,1.4,17.6,24.3,23.1
Norwegian,4.3,43.6,0,11.7,39.9,0.2,0.2
Orcadian,5.4,44.2,0,11.3,38.8,0,0
Oroqen,0.1111111,0.8888889,0,0,0.1111111,51.222222 2,47.7777778
Ossetian,39.5454545,34.9090909,0,0.1818182,19.5454 545,3.2727273,2.4545455
Romanian,12.6,49.9,0,6.8,29.5,0.6,0.7
Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky,1.5,36.1666667,0, 12.8333333,40.3333333,8.1666667,0.5
Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky,0.5,32.5,0,11.5,42 ,14,0.5
Russian_Belgorod,5.5,41.75,0,12.5,39.25,1,0.25
Russian_Cheremisinovsky,5.25,40.25,0,12.75,39,1.25 ,1.25
Russian_Ershichi,5.2857143,40.1428571,0,13.7142857 ,39.4285714,0.7142857,0.4285714
Russian_Kaluga,3.5,40.25,0,12.75,41,2,0
Russian_Orel,5.25,40,0,12.25,39.5,2.75,0.25
Russian_Pskov,2.3333333,38.8333333,0,14.5,42.33333 33,1.3333333,0.8333333
Russian_Ryazan,6.6,38.8,0,12.6,38.8,2.4,1
Russian_Spassk,4.7142857,39,0,11.8571429,40.857142 9,2.8571429,0.5714286
Russian_Tver,5.25,38.5,0,12.25,39,4.25,0
Russian_Vologda,3.25,36.125,0,12.75,40.625,6.75,0. 5
Russian_Yaroslavl,2.3333333,38.6666667,0,12.333333 3,42,4,0.3333333
Saami.DG,0,25.75,0,12,40,22.25,0
Sardinian,9,67.4,2.6,9.6,10.7,0.3,0.1
Scottish,5.75,44,0,10.5,39.5,0,0
Selkup,0.1,7.6,0,1.4,25.9,64.9,0.2
Selkup_Farkovo,0,5.625,0,0.25,29.75,64.25,0
Selkup_Turukhansk,0,6.3333333,0.6666667,0.3333333, 31.1666667,61.5,0
She,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Shor_Khakassia,3.8333333,8.3333333,0,0.1666667,26. 1666667,45.6666667,15.6666667
Shor_Mountain,4.4285714,9,0,0.1428571,26.1428571,4 3.7142857,16.8571429
Sicilian,22.5,54.125,1.125,4,17.25,0.875,0.625
Spanish,10.7777778,53.2222222,0.8888889,10.4444444 ,24,0.1111111,0.8888889
Tabasaran,39.3,29.9,0,0,29.6,0.8,0.6
Tajik,36.7142857,20.2857143,0,2.4285714,29.4285714 ,4,7.2857143
Tajik_Aininsky,34.3,22.3,0,1.4,23.1,7.3,11.4
Tajik_Gissar,33.5,22,0,2,24.5,8,10.5
Tajik_Kulyab,36.1428571,22.2857143,0,0.8571429,25. 5714286,5.8571429,9.1428571
Tatar_Irtysh_Barabinsk,6,13.5,0,1.5,23,38.5,17.5
Tatar_Kazan,8.4615385,30.4615385,0,7.1538462,34.23 07692,15.0769231,4.8461538
Tatar_Mishar,7.1,33.5,0.1,8.8,34.8,10.5,5
Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk,7.6,16.6,0,2.6,25.2,34.2,13 .8
Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen,8.6666667,17,0,2.3333333,25, 31,15.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky,8.6,16.6,0,3,24.6,32.8,14. 6
Tatar_Siberian_Yalutorovskiy,7,19.8333333,0,2.8333 333,28.5,29,12.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye,4,13.2,0,2.4,31.4,43.8, 5.2
Tatar_Tomsk,8.5,18,0,5,24,27,18
Tatar_Volga,9.5,31,0,7.5,33.5,12.5,5
Teleut,5.5,10,0,2,17.5,44,21.5
Tlingit,1.75,17.25,0,5,32.25,38.25,5
Todzin,1.3333333,4,0,0,7.6666667,73.6666667,13.333 3333
Tofalar,0.6,5.5,0,1.1,9.4,75.3,7.8
Tu,2.5,1.6,0,0.1,2.4,14.3,78.9
Tubalar_Altai,6.2,10.6,0,1.2,24.4,38.8,18.4
Tubalar_Artybash,5.4,9.3,0,0.3,24.6,40.7,19.3
Tujia,0,0,0,0,0,2.125,97.875
Turkish,35.1,42.8,0,1.1,13.6,4.2,3.1
Turkmen,24.375,22.25,0,0.75,17.25,18,16.875
Tuvinian,2.8,5.1,0,0.3,9.8,58.5,23.2
Tuvinian_Erzin,2.8,5.6,0,0,7.8,55,28.8
Udmurt,4.8,23.5,0,5.1,41.4,25,0.2
Ukrainian,5.8333333,40.8333333,0,12.1666667,39.833 3333,1.3333333,0.5
Ukrainian_Lviv,7.6666667,42.3333333,0.3333333,11.6 666667,36.6666667,1,0.3333333
Ukrainian_North,4.625,41.875,0.25,12.25,39.5,0.625 ,0.875
Ukrainian_Sumskaya,5.3333333,42,0,12.6666667,39.33 33333,0.6666667,0.6666667
Ulchi,0,0,0,0,0,61.7272727,38.2727273
Uyghur,18.6,13.6,0,0.7,15.4,18.4,33.5
Veps,0.4,34.5,0,12.9,42.9,9.4,0.1
Xibo,0.8571429,1.7142857,0,0,0.4285714,26.7142857, 70.4285714
Yakut,2.1,4.3,0,0.6,4.3,65.6,23.2
Yi,0,0,0,0,0,9.2222222,90.7777778
Yukagir_Forest,0.2727273,3,0,1,5.9090909,83.909090 9,5.7272727

New Hungarian samples


Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-31,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:AN-376,0,0,11,0,0,56,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:FU-215,0,2,9,0,1,62,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:KFP-30a,0,1,10,0,2,54,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:MM-245,0,0,9,0,0,61,30
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-7,0,0,8,0,0,62,29
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:CS-465,0,1,5,0,3,58,33
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:FGD-4,0,0,11,0,2,54,32
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:KV-3369,0,2,10,0,1,61,27
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-213,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-37,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Avar_Early:ACG-19,5,17,7,2,6,41,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:AN-286,0,39,11,15,35,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:FU-193,10,40,11,3,20,7,7
Hungary_Avar_Early:HC-168,19,39,11,1,18,9,4
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-61,11,26,10,2,17,21,13
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-80,2,5,10,1,9,42,31
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-83,6,19,10,3,15,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-131,7,55,15,3,20,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-151,1,3,13,1,9,40,33
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-240,9,26,12,1,22,20,10
Hungary_Avar_Early:MS-43,8,48,14,5,23,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:MT-29,4,19,12,1,10,33,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-17,12,48,10,6,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-58,10,54,13,1,21,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-181,5,40,10,7,31,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-371,14,45,12,3,16,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-102,14,57,15,0,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-213,7,27,13,0,6,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-76,13,29,10,0,20,16,12
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-127,7,22,10,0,14,26,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-187,3,6,10,0,12,43,26
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-829,11,44,9,10,27,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZRV-54,11,23,11,1,17,20,17
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:DK-701,3,33,10,9,34,8,3
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:KFP-6,1,21,8,6,17,31,15
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3:SZF-43,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:ALT-77,10,52,10,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:KPM-14,14,54,14,2,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-369,8,44,12,7,24,2,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-412,15,48,12,4,21,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-596,10,48,13,5,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-11,12,32,8,4,21,12,10
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-14,6,43,9,7,26,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-17,11,29,9,2,17,18,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-19,8,12,8,1,15,33,23
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-21,5,23,11,0,16,26,19
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-24,6,13,9,0,15,32,26
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-43,10,42,11,5,24,4,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-49,20,27,5,5,33,7,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-50,6,12,8,0,8,40,25
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-10,11,50,14,4,19,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-22,10,45,10,7,25,1,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK1-368,14,51,12,2,20,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-441,4,11,13,0,7,43,22
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-445,5,17,11,3,11,33,20
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-670,0,4,12,0,3,54,28
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-37,17,43,11,2,15,6,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-52,6,49,12,4,29,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-51,13,30,10,2,18,16,11
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-108,18,50,10,1,17,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-12,10,43,10,5,20,7,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-200,9,42,10,3,22,8,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-205,5,26,11,2,17,23,16
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZK-130,13,48,11,2,24,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-62,13,44,9,6,20,4,4
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-70,11,44,9,5,26,3,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-89,13,47,9,5,19,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZM-332,13,50,14,2,15,2,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-67,13,40,12,1,19,8,7
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-168,10,33,10,2,18,15,12
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-266,1,5,11,0,8,44,32
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-277,12,33,10,5,17,10,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-316,10,27,9,3,14,19,18
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-509,3,44,12,9,31,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-798,7,44,9,8,31,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-1273,5,45,11,8,29,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:TTSZ-43,2,14,10,0,10,40,24
Hungary_Avar_Late:VPB-31,8,46,12,3,23,2,6
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:KV-3450,6,16,8,3,12,34,21
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:VPB-307,7,22,10,1,14,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1:KK1-251,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ALT-414,11,48,13,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ARK-38,12,48,12,4,22,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-265,12,51,13,3,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-311,16,48,11,4,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4:OBT-3,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:CSPF-182,2,14,9,0,9,42,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KD-16,8,27,9,0,20,20,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-188,13,39,11,1,19,10,7
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-517,7,48,10,8,27,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-520,12,38,11,0,19,9,11
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KPM-23,13,46,12,5,18,2,4
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MS-50,9,45,13,8,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-17,9,45,13,6,24,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-23,4,20,10,4,16,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-74,0,6,10,1,3,56,24
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-116,9,43,9,7,22,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-125,11,35,12,5,21,9,6
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-35,1,8,12,1,6,49,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-144,10,50,12,3,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-151,7,46,13,6,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-198,11,54,16,0,19,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-24,5,49,12,7,27,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-38,10,52,12,4,21,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-255,15,54,12,0,15,0,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-259,14,49,12,2,18,4,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZRV-147,9,25,9,3,17,21,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:TMH-756,7,50,13,6,24,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite:KV-3367,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:ALT-224,11,60,13,0,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:SZK-180,16,54,11,1,18,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2:HH-102,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3:TMH-388,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4:KDA-485,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ALT-442,8,48,9,6,28,0,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ARK-41,11,24,11,2,19,21,13
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:JHT-154,16,45,12,2,21,3,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK1-245,22,54,13,0,10,1,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK2-429,4,12,9,1,8,42,26
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KPM-27,13,43,13,3,19,6,4
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite:KV-3456,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZA-154,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:KeF1-10936,2,14,10,0,32,38,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:LB-1432,2,14,12,1,34,35,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:MH1-23,5,12,9,4,31,38,1
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-4,4,13,7,2,34,38,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-6,1,14,12,1,32,36,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-7,2,11,9,3,32,40,2
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:TCS-2,5,14,8,2,29,36,5
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K2-29,8,16,6,2,25,35,9
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K3-6,7,15,11,2,25,33,6
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZAK-1,3,15,12,0,29,36,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-5,10,50,13,5,20,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-43,4,43,13,8,29,1,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-50,6,35,9,10,31,7,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-86,15,52,11,3,18,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-88,10,25,11,2,23,20,9
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-157,4,45,11,7,32,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-229,4,46,11,10,28,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-231,9,24,9,2,24,22,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-245,6,45,12,10,26,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-154,9,47,8,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-161,9,46,9,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-176,8,47,9,7,28,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-1,7,31,11,6,25,16,5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-2,4,37,11,8,29,8,3
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-19,7,47,12,6,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-20,8,45,9,9,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-23,6,44,8,9,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-28,4,32,9,6,30,16,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-38,3,43,12,10,30,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-57,10,46,11,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-200,6,20,8,4,28,26,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-216,8,27,12,3,22,15,13
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-66,7,47,11,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-81,8,43,10,5,29,0,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-98,5,43,9,11,32,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-106,2,44,11,9,34,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-143,8,31,9,6,25,12,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-182,10,46,9,7,26,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-251,4,44,8,7,32,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-20,6,49,11,9,25,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-29,7,43,8,8,31,3,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-44,11,48,8,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-52,8,29,8,5,21,19,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-394,12,45,11,7,24,1,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-426,8,31,12,5,25,13,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-566,15,23,8,4,18,20,12
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-561,7,41,9,8,28,5,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-588,6,49,11,9,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1:SZOD-376,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:PLE-195,6,48,11,7,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:SH-175,10,47,9,6,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4:SZA-7,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5:IBE-206,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-49,8,43,11,9,24,3,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-75,0,40,14,10,35,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-87,5,45,12,9,27,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-92,4,9,12,0,9,41,26
Hungary_Conq_Elite:BK-2,8,31,9,8,28,14,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:CSU-11,8,45,8,9,27,2,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-1,10,34,9,5,27,11,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-10,4,38,9,10,28,4,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-3286,8,15,9,0,12,35,21
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-16,3,26,9,5,25,22,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-18,6,32,9,4,24,15,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-33,13,49,12,4,21,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-61,4,14,9,1,21,38,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-12,17,29,10,3,22,9,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-13,7,28,5,7,30,17,7
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-500,11,21,11,2,23,22,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-596,8,48,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-4,1,21,9,2,33,30,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-9,3,34,13,5,33,9,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-14,7,26,10,8,27,16,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite:NK-2,8,16,7,3,11,38,17
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-16,11,28,8,2,20,20,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-23,11,36,8,5,24,8,8
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-114,11,50,10,5,23,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-3,6,26,9,4,23,24,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-4,13,17,8,2,20,27,14
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SO-5,7,23,9,3,23,26,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-2,9,38,10,8,29,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-9,9,17,11,1,18,32,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-10,6,23,10,1,26,25,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:TCS-5,9,45,11,7,27,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-167,2,43,10,10,33,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-310,8,24,10,3,27,23,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4:TCS-18,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5:SE-64,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-90,7,39,11,6,27,6,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-106,6,43,10,8,29,2,2
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-107,7,43,12,10,26,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-116,9,42,10,9,27,2,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-88,6,46,11,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-106,4,44,12,10,30,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-107,4,32,10,4,30,15,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-153,6,44,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-95,3,33,10,6,30,12,7
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-115,10,30,12,4,24,13,8
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-327,9,30,8,4,27,18,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-384,7,37,10,7,29,6,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-418,10,31,10,5,26,13,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-441,6,40,9,9,29,3,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:VPB-118,8,50,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5:VPB-600,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Hun:ASZK-1,10,24,11,4,38,9,5
Hungary_Hun:CSB-3,9,40,13,8,26,1,3
Hungary_Hun:CSB-9,0,33,8,15,43,0,0
Hungary_Hun:KMT-2785,3,24,9,5,24,20,15
Hungary_Hun:MSG-1,0,1,12,0,4,43,40
Hungary_Hun:SEI-5,9,40,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Hun:SEI-6,4,46,12,5,31,0,1
Hungary_Hun:SZLA-646,3,40,11,11,36,0,0
Hungary_Hun:VZ-12673,2,2,9,0,10,40,37
Hungary_Starcevo_EN:ANY-4027,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:HGO-26,2,71,17,8,0,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:VM-33,2,72,17,5,2,2,0

New Hungarian averages


Hungary_Avar_Early,8.2173913,31.7826087,11.2608696 ,2.8695652,17.6086957,16.9130435,11.3478261
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite,2,27,9,7.5,25.5,19.5,9
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle,12,53,12,3,19.5,0,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late,9.325,34.95,10.475,3.35,19.25,13 .2,9.425
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite,6.5,19,9,2,13,31.5,19.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2,12.75,48.75,12.25,3.75, 21.25,1,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle,8.4545455,38.3181818,11.454545 5,3.5,19.0909091,11.7727273,7.4090909
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1,13.5,57,12,0.5,17,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate,12.3333333,37.6666667,11.1 666667,2.3333333,17.5,12.1666667,7.5
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner,7.3947368,40.3421053,10.0526 316,7.0526316,26.5263158,5.4473684,3.1315789
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3,8,47.5,10,6.5,26.5, 0,0.5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite,7.4242424,30.7272727,9.7575758, 4.9393939,24.3333333,15.5757576,7.2727273
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian,6.8,38.9333333,10.4666667,7 ,27.6666667,6.2666667,3.0666667
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,0.75,9.75,0,0.75,5 8.25,30.5
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,8,0,0,62,2 9
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,1,8.6666667, 0,2,57.6666667,30.6666667
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1,3,13.1428571,9.57142 86,1.8571429,32,37.2857143,3.1428571
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2,6,15.3333333,9.66666 67,1.3333333,26.3333333,34.6666667,7
Hungary_Hun,4.4444444,27.7777778,10.6666667,6.2222 222,26.7777778,12.7777778,11.2222222
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Starcevo_EN,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN,2,71.5,17,6.5,1,1.5,0

[vbnetkhio]

On the other hand, the “immigrant core” of the conquering Hungarians derived from an earlier
admixture of Mansis, early Sarmatians and descendants of late Xiongnus

I don't think this excludes Turkic ancestry at all. Early Turks were something like Sarmatian+Xiongnu too, so this model could be including such ancestry as well.

[Blondie]

There used to be a slavic speaking population in western Hungary before the hungarian conquest

But not only slavs lived in West Hungary. This is the chronology of the arrival of conquerors according to Anonymus (and the original documents):

1. Álmos and the other leaders have entered the Carpathian Basin in Subcarpathia (Vereczke Pass) across the Havas Forest. Firstly they have conquered the first settlement by force and they gived a new name "Munkács" because the siege was not easy. They stayed here for 40 days.
(obviously Munkács was populated by slavs at this time)

2. Full conquest of southern Subcarpathia which was part of Bulgaria at this time, led by Salán bulgarian warlord, after the siege of Munkács the local slavs accepted the magyar rule.

3. Conquest of East Highland (Felvidék), they moved to Hungvár (now Ungvár) which means (city of hungarus), after the siege they stayed here for 4 days. It was the moment when the conquerors used the hungarus name for this ethnicity, they named them after the city.

4. The great military campaign to East Alföld, siege of Zemplén and Borsova (came from the hungarian borsó word) and defeat of bulgarian warlord Salán. These lands had hungarus majority ruled by bulgarians, in north (present day Borsod country) was populated by slavs and hungarus.

5. At this moment the capital was Ungvár, and they moved across the present day North Hungary, they conquered north West Hungary completely where slavs lived. Their capital was Komárom.

6. Conquest of most parts of Highland to the Tátra. The military chief of the campaign was Bors a hungarus leader.

7. Conquest of Bihar (the gate of Transylvania), Bihar was ruled by Mén-Marót hungarus leader who didn't want magyar rule in his land, so the magyars conquered it by force. It was the second hungarus vs conqueror battle.

8. Building fortresses in Szabolcs country (Szabolcs, Tas Vára), named by Szabolcs hungarus leader and Tas conqueror leader.

9. Conquest of another hungarus fortess Zilah, northern gate of Transylvania.

10. Buildig the "gyepű" a military defense line.

11. Agmánd a hungarus scout was send by Tétény conqueror leader to Transylvania to explore it. The land was populated by vlachs and slavs at this time, and obviously partly hungarus too because they also used hungarus topograpy.

12. Conquest of Transylvania, defeat Gyalú the vlach leader.

13. Conquest of south Partium.

14. According to Anonymus the conquerors firstly conquered the big cities, fortresses, but now they have conquered the complete areas including the full countryside everywhere.

15. A great military campaign to West Highland. Battles between conquerors and local slavs led by Zobor, magyars won.

16. A common greek-bulgarian attack against the conquerors and they have defeated by magyars in Csongrád.

17. Conquest of Southland (present day Vojvodina and Slavonia)

18. Anti-magyar uprising in south Partium led by Galád hungarus leader, his army was mostly bulgarian, vlach, turkic. This army was defeated by magyars.

19. Conquest of Transdanubia, West Hungary, the local slavs, roman survivors were defeated by magyars.

Territory of conquerors, and every changing:

https://i.imgur.com/y2Rmujw.jpg

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg

[Blondie]

1. I'd guess there were ethnically different tribes. Arthur Koestler wrote in "The Thirteenth Tribe" that there was even one (or more?) tribe said to be observant to Jewish laws. (It was a long time ago that I read it and unfortunately I don't recall the exact source.) So having some Turkic Khazar tribe among them seems well possible.

2. Can you briefly tell how is determeined that someone used Hungarian topography, names, and words before Árpáds?

3. I appreciate all old sources including Gesta Hungarorum, but there could well be an erroneous statement. The reputation of that text in the aspect of authenticity is not the best.

Check my new comment :)

[Coastal Elite]

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg

I like how they went with the default font on Microsoft Paint when they manipulated that map. Looks very official.

[vbnetkhio]

But not only slavs lived in West Hungary. This is the chronology of the arrival of conquerors according to Anonymus (and the original documents):

1. Álmos and the other leaders have entered the Carpathian Basin in Subcarpathia (Vereczke Pass) across the Havas Forest. Firstly they have conquered the first settlement by force and they gived a new name "Munkács" because the siege was not easy. They stayed here for 40 days.
(obviously Munkács was populated by slavs at this time)

2. Full conquest of southern Subcarpathia which was part of Bulgaria at this time, led by Salán bulgarian warlord, after the siege of Munkács the local slavs accepted the magyar rule.

3. Conquest of East Highland (Felvidék), they moved to Hungvár (now Ungvár) which means (city of hungarus), after the siege they stayed here for 4 days. It was the moment when the conquerors used the hungarus name for this ethnicity, they named them after the city.

4. The great military campaign to East Alföld, siege of Zemplén and Borsova (came from the hungarian borsó word) and defeat of bulgarian warlord Salán. These lands had hungarus majority ruled by bulgarians, in north (present day Borsod country) was populated by slavs and hungarus.

5. At this moment the capital was Ungvár, and they moved across the present day North Hungary, they conquered north West Hungary completely where slavs lived. Their capital was Komárom.

6. Conquest of most parts of Highland to the Tátra. The military chief of the campaign was Bors a hungarus leader.

7. Conquest of Bihar (the gate of Transylvania), Bihar was ruled by Mén-Marót hungarus leader who didn't want magyar rule in his land, so the magyars conquered it by force. It was the second hungarus vs conqueror battle.

8. Building fortresses in Szabolcs country (Szabolcs, Tas Vára), named by Szabolcs hungarus leader and Tas conqueror leader.

9. Conquest of another hungarus fortess Zilah, northern gate of Transylvania.

10. Buildig the "gyepű" a military defense line.

11. Agmánd a hungarus scout was send by Tétény conqueror leader to Transylvania to explore it. The land was populated by vlachs and slavs at this time, and obviously partly hungarus too because they also used hungarus topograpy.

12. Conquest of Transylvania, defeat Gyalú the vlach leader.

13. Conquest of south Partium.

14. According to Anonymus the conquerors firstly conquered the big cities, fortresses, but now they have conquered the complete areas including the full countryside everywhere.

15. A great military campaign to West Highland. Battles between conquerors and local slavs led by Zobor, magyars won.

16. A common greek-bulgarian attack against the conquerors and they have defeated by magyars in Csongrád.

17. Conquest of Southland (present day Vojvodina and Slavonia)

18. Anti-magyar uprising in south Partium led by Galád hungarus leader, his army was mostly bulgarian, vlach, turkic. This army was defeated by magyars.

19. Conquest of Transdanubia, West Hungary, the local slavs, roman survivors were defeated by magyars.

Territory of conquerors, and every changing:

https://i.imgur.com/y2Rmujw.jpg

Ethnic map at this time:

https://i.imgur.com/WGD5coU.jpg

very interesting analysis!
the new study shows as that "Hungarus" were a Daco-Roman+Avar+Hun mix...
I don't believe these people called themselves "Hungarus", in these chronicles it was probably used with a meaning of "inhabitant of Pannonia"

[Blondie]

I like how they went with the default font on Microsoft Paint when they manipulated that map. Looks very official.

Nobody said that this is official map, i created it and it based on the Gesta Hungarorum.

[Blondie]

very interesting analysis!
the new study shows as that "Hungarus" were a Daco-Roman+Avar+Hun mix...
I don't believe these people called themselves "Hungarus", in these chronicles it was probably used with a meaning of "inhabitant of Pannonia"

Yes, hungarus didn't call themselves hungarus, the conquerors gived them this name. The conquerors thought they were folk of Attila, remnants of old population what existed in the Carpathian Basin under the hunnic rule. The medieval hungarian peoples were descedants of hungarus and conquerors.

[Turul Karom]

It's not my problem that you can't interpret a scientific paper. There's nothing you wrote in that post that proves Hungarian Conquerors were Central Asian Turkic people. All the quotations I presented from the article state that Turkic genetic input was minor among them, around 15%, which is notable but not at all substantial. I never spoke about culture and religious aspects but strictly genetics, that is a way different topic. You can create a new thread in which you can speak about none-genetics aspects of Hungarian Conquerors.

It's not my problem if you don't know the Latin alphabet or know how to count, then. You've waxed poetic about Uralics and haplogroup N in post #4, but completely ignore the dominance of R1. Not only is N a minority, but it is not even the largest haplogroup by %. Yet you claim that these must be the "core" of the conquerors because N is associated with Mansi? Amazingly talented leap of faith. You're the one who had to frame the article in post #4. Also, 15%? Really? Is it because you are again, like so many other people, attributing "Turkicness" to exclusively East Asian admixture? Now you are just making the lines tighter intentionally as to what is "Turkic" so as to again, minimize the input.

At least now we live in a time where the question is not "if" but "how much." You can move your goalposts all you'd like, but you will never erase these facts without erasing the Hungarian identity.

[ixulescu]

Yes, hungarus didn't call themselves hungarus, the conquerors gived them this name. The conquerors thought they were folk of Attila, remnants of old population what existed in the Carpathian Basin under the hunnic rule. The medieval hungarian peoples were descedants of hungarus and conquerors.

So who brought the Hungarian language, the hungarus or the conquerors?

IMO it was the conquerors who brought it. It had to be a population with significant amount of N haplogroup. Since the "Hungarus" people, as you describe them, don't seem to have a strong Uralic component, it makes it very likely that the conquerors brought that influence.

At the same time, if the language was that of a minority (the conquerors), it would have been very difficult to impose it to the majority, particularly to an illiterate population. Also, the conquerors didn't have the advantage the Slavs had, the use of a Slavic language in Church. So probably the Hungarian language was adopted slowly by creating a social ladder based on assimilation into the culture.

Related to this, certain Vlach groups under Hungarian influence used clan-based organization ("neam" means clan in Romanian, and is derived from Hungarian), and that practice survived for quite a long time during the medieval period in Moldova. Wallachians, although more Balkanic in nature, have always had a distaste for anything clan based, possibly a remnant of eastern roman culture.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Modern averages


Abazin,37.25,34.25,0,1,19.5,5.125,3.125
Abkhasian,47.6666667,37.8888889,0,0,14,0.6666667,0
Adygei_Krasnodar,39.2,35.6,0,0.5,20.8,2.5,1.1
Adygei_Shovgenovsky,38.7,36,0,0.5,20.2,2.8,1.5
Alaskan_Athabskan,0,0,3,0,18,67,11
Albanian,17.5,53.5,0,5.3333333,22.8333333,0.333333 3,0.5
Aleut,2,23,0,7.8571429,34.2857143,29.1428571,4
Altaian_Chelkan,4.25,11.5,0.25,1.375,28,38.375,16. 125
Altaian_Kosh-Agachsky,5.6666667,9,0.1666667,0.6666667,12.166666 7,45.6666667,26.5
Altaian_Ongudaisky,4.5555556,8.2222222,0,0.3333333 ,13.1111111,46.6666667,26.7777778
Armenian,45.2,44.2,0,0,10.3,0.1,0
Armenian_Hemsheni,43.25,43.375,0,0.75,12.25,0.125, 0
Assyrian,46.5,43.6,0,0.1,9.3,0.2,0.1
Avar,39.1111111,28.6666667,0,0.1111111,31.3333333, 0.8888889,0
Azeri,42.4444444,37,0,0.1111111,13.3333333,3.11111 11,4
Azeri_Dagestan,41.125,34.625,0,0.5,18.125,1.75,3.3 75
Balkar,37.8,35,0,0.5,19.7,4,2.9
Bashkir_Arkhangelsk,6.7142857,24.1428571,0,5.28571 43,32,23.7142857,8.1428571
Bashkir_Baimaksky,8.125,19,0,3.125,27.5,30.25,11.8 75
Bashkir_Davlekanovo,9.4444444,25.4444444,0,6.11111 11,30.1111111,21.7777778,7.1111111
Bashkir_Ianaul,7.125,27.375,0,6.625,34.25,20.375,4 .125
Bashkir_Ilishevsky,8.1666667,27.6666667,0,6.333333 3,33.5,19.6666667,4.6666667
Bashkir_Ishimbai,8.25,21,0,4,28.25,28,10.5
Bashkir_Karaidelsky,6.5,25.75,0,5.5,33.5,22.5,5.75
Bashkir_Kugarchinsky,7.8571429,20.1428571,0,3.4285 714,27.8571429,30.2857143,10.8571429
Basque,6.2,54.3,0,14.3,24.9,0,0.2
Belarusian,4.3,40.9,0,12.8,40.8,0.6,0.6
Besermyan,7,25.8333333,0,6,38.5,21.5,0.8333333
Bulgarian,15,49.8888889,0,6.6666667,27.5555556,0.4 444444,0.4444444
Buryat_Aginsky,3.8,4.6,0,0.4,4,53.2,34.4
Buryat_Duldurginsky,3.5,5,0,0.5,3.25,51.75,36.5
Buryat_Irkutsk,3.9,5.4,0,0.8,4,52.4,33.8
Buryat_Khorinsky,3.6,5,0,0.2,3.4,53.2,34.6
Buryat_Zakamensky,4,5.1666667,0,0.3333333,3.666666 7,53.3333333,33.6666667
Chechen,39.4444444,33.2222222,0,0,24.6666667,1.666 6667,0.6666667
Chukchi,0,0,0,0,10.2,89.7,0
Chuvash_Cheboksary,5.5,27.6,0,8,35.7,20.9,2.3
Chuvash_Tatarstan,5,29.6666667,0,8.5,37,18.1666667 ,2
Circassian,37.4444444,34.8888889,0,0.6666667,20,3. 7777778,3
Croatian,9.9,47.9,0,8.8,32.9,0,0.4
Cypriot,35.125,53.375,0,0.75,10,0.25,0.5
Czech,6.3,44.6,0,11,37.8,0.1,0.2
Dai,0,0,0,0,0.1,0,99.9
Darginian,38.625,27.875,0,0,32.875,0.625,0
Daur,0.6666667,1.4444444,0,0,0.4444444,35.4444444, 61.7777778
Dolgan,1.75,6,0,1,5.5,68.75,17.25
Dungan,5,3.5,0,0.1,3.8,12.6,75.1
Enets,0,6.3333333,0,1.6666667,16.3333333,75.666666 7,0
English,5.7,46.4,0,10.5,37.1,0,0
Estonian,0.6,38.3,0,14.2,44.9,1.5,0.4
Even,1.3333333,13.6666667,0,3.6666667,12.8888889,5 7.1111111,11.4444444
Evenk_FarEast,0.6,7.2,0,2,6.4,54,29.8
Evenk_Transbaikal,0.5,2.625,0,0.375,1,88.125,7.625
Ezid,47.375,35.625,0.375,1.375,11.875,2.5,1
Finnish,1.6,37.2,0,12.7,41.8,6.6,0.3
French,7.5,52.1,0.1,12.4,27.6,0,0.1
Gagauz,17.5555556,48.4444444,0.1111111,6,25.888888 9,1.5555556,0.4444444
Georgian,47.3333333,41.3333333,0,0,11.1666667,0,0
Georgian_Turkey,46.1428571,40.8571429,0.2857143,0, 11.5714286,0.7142857,0.4285714
Georgian_Zugdidi,49.125,39.25,0,0,11.875,0,0
Greek.WGA,19.7,52.7,1.2,4.8,21,0.2,0.5
Hezhen,0.25,0.25,0,0,0.125,39,60.5
Hungarian,8.1,45.95,0,10.15,34.75,0.6,0.65
Icelandic,4.125,43.625,0,12,40,0,0
Ingushian,39.3,34.2,0,0.2,22.6,2.5,1.2
Italian_North,14.6,54.9,0.3,7.3,22.8,0,0
Italian_South,25,53.75,0,3.75,16.75,0,0.25
Itelmen,0,0,0,0,9,90.4285714,0.4285714
Kabardinian,35.1111111,34.8888889,0,0.5555556,21.2 222222,5.6666667,2.4444444
Kaitag,37.75,29.5,0,0,32.25,0.5,0
Kalmyk,3.9,7.4,0,0.4,7,41.6,39.8
Karachai,38.7,33.7,0,0.7,20.2,4.3,3
Karakalpak,12.9,16.7,0,2,14.8,29,24.7
Karelian,0.3,35.7,0,13.6,42.2,8,0.1
Kazakh,9.3333333,14.6666667,0.6666667,2,13.3333333 ,30.3333333,29.3333333
Kazakh_Argyn,9.6666667,11.6666667,0.3333333,2.3333 333,12.3333333,33.6666667,30.3333333
Kazakh_Kypchak,9.1666667,13,0,0.8333333,13.6666667 ,32.8333333,30.8333333
Kazakh_Naiman,9.3333333,13.5,0,1.5,13.5,31.6666667 ,30.1666667
Ket,0,4,0,0.1,27.8,67.9,0
Khakass_Askizskiy,3.3333333,9.3333333,0.1666667,0. 5,22.3333333,46,18.6666667
Khakass_Beiskiy,4,7,0,0.4,17,49.6,22.2
Khakass_Kachin,3.875,9.875,0,1,19.375,44.5,21.25
Khamnegan,2.7,4.5,0,0.5,3.2,54.2,34.8
Kubachinian,40.3333333,27.6666667,0,0,31.8333333,0 .1666667,0
Kumyk,37.75,34.625,0,0.25,22.625,2.875,2.125
Kurd,48.875,36.5,0,0.375,12.375,1.25,0.75
Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan.DG,8,11.1,0,0.5,12.4,33.9,34
Kyrgyz_Tajikistan,10.75,10.75,0,1,13,32,32.75
Lak,39,28.1111111,0,0,32.1111111,0.7777778,0.11111 11
Lezgin,40.3333333,31.2222222,0,0,27.3333333,0.8888 889,0.4444444
Lithuanian,0.9,39.3,0,15.5,44.2,0,0.2
Mansi,0.1111111,12.5555556,0,2.8888889,34.7777778, 49.5555556,0
Mari.SG,4,23,0,8,36,27,1
Miao,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Moldavian,15.4,49.8,0,6.2,27.3,1.1,0.3
Mongol,4.5,5.1,0,0.3,4.9,41.3,43.9
Mongol_Sainnoyon,3.875,5.125,0,0,3.625,42,44.75
Mongol_Zasagt,3.5714286,4.7142857,0,0.4285714,4.71 42857,40.7142857,46
Mongola,0.6666667,1.6666667,0,0,2,21.5,74.5
Mordovian,5.4,35.4,0,11.1,40.4,6.4,1.7
Nanai,0,0,0,0,0,58.2,41.8
Naxi,0.1111111,0,0,0,0,8.7777778,91.1111111
Negidal,0,0,0,0,0,65,35
Nganasan,0,0,0,0.1,1.2,98.6,0
Nivh,0,0,0,0,0,57,43
Nogai_Astrakhan,9.3333333,18,0,2.1666667,17,27.5,2 5.8333333
Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia,26.2222222,28.4444444,0, 1.4444444,19.5555556,12.4444444,11.5555556
Nogai_Stavropol,13.1,20.3,0,1.4,17.6,24.3,23.1
Norwegian,4.3,43.6,0,11.7,39.9,0.2,0.2
Orcadian,5.4,44.2,0,11.3,38.8,0,0
Oroqen,0.1111111,0.8888889,0,0,0.1111111,51.222222 2,47.7777778
Ossetian,39.5454545,34.9090909,0,0.1818182,19.5454 545,3.2727273,2.4545455
Romanian,12.6,49.9,0,6.8,29.5,0.6,0.7
Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky,1.5,36.1666667,0, 12.8333333,40.3333333,8.1666667,0.5
Russian_Archangelsk_Leshukonsky,0.5,32.5,0,11.5,42 ,14,0.5
Russian_Belgorod,5.5,41.75,0,12.5,39.25,1,0.25
Russian_Cheremisinovsky,5.25,40.25,0,12.75,39,1.25 ,1.25
Russian_Ershichi,5.2857143,40.1428571,0,13.7142857 ,39.4285714,0.7142857,0.4285714
Russian_Kaluga,3.5,40.25,0,12.75,41,2,0
Russian_Orel,5.25,40,0,12.25,39.5,2.75,0.25
Russian_Pskov,2.3333333,38.8333333,0,14.5,42.33333 33,1.3333333,0.8333333
Russian_Ryazan,6.6,38.8,0,12.6,38.8,2.4,1
Russian_Spassk,4.7142857,39,0,11.8571429,40.857142 9,2.8571429,0.5714286
Russian_Tver,5.25,38.5,0,12.25,39,4.25,0
Russian_Vologda,3.25,36.125,0,12.75,40.625,6.75,0. 5
Russian_Yaroslavl,2.3333333,38.6666667,0,12.333333 3,42,4,0.3333333
Saami.DG,0,25.75,0,12,40,22.25,0
Sardinian,9,67.4,2.6,9.6,10.7,0.3,0.1
Scottish,5.75,44,0,10.5,39.5,0,0
Selkup,0.1,7.6,0,1.4,25.9,64.9,0.2
Selkup_Farkovo,0,5.625,0,0.25,29.75,64.25,0
Selkup_Turukhansk,0,6.3333333,0.6666667,0.3333333, 31.1666667,61.5,0
She,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
Shor_Khakassia,3.8333333,8.3333333,0,0.1666667,26. 1666667,45.6666667,15.6666667
Shor_Mountain,4.4285714,9,0,0.1428571,26.1428571,4 3.7142857,16.8571429
Sicilian,22.5,54.125,1.125,4,17.25,0.875,0.625
Spanish,10.7777778,53.2222222,0.8888889,10.4444444 ,24,0.1111111,0.8888889
Tabasaran,39.3,29.9,0,0,29.6,0.8,0.6
Tajik,36.7142857,20.2857143,0,2.4285714,29.4285714 ,4,7.2857143
Tajik_Aininsky,34.3,22.3,0,1.4,23.1,7.3,11.4
Tajik_Gissar,33.5,22,0,2,24.5,8,10.5
Tajik_Kulyab,36.1428571,22.2857143,0,0.8571429,25. 5714286,5.8571429,9.1428571
Tatar_Irtysh_Barabinsk,6,13.5,0,1.5,23,38.5,17.5
Tatar_Kazan,8.4615385,30.4615385,0,7.1538462,34.23 07692,15.0769231,4.8461538
Tatar_Mishar,7.1,33.5,0.1,8.8,34.8,10.5,5
Tatar_Siberian_Tobolsk,7.6,16.6,0,2.6,25.2,34.2,13 .8
Tatar_Siberian_Tyumen,8.6666667,17,0,2.3333333,25, 31,15.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Vagaysky,8.6,16.6,0,3,24.6,32.8,14. 6
Tatar_Siberian_Yalutorovskiy,7,19.8333333,0,2.8333 333,28.5,29,12.6666667
Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye,4,13.2,0,2.4,31.4,43.8, 5.2
Tatar_Tomsk,8.5,18,0,5,24,27,18
Tatar_Volga,9.5,31,0,7.5,33.5,12.5,5
Teleut,5.5,10,0,2,17.5,44,21.5
Tlingit,1.75,17.25,0,5,32.25,38.25,5
Todzin,1.3333333,4,0,0,7.6666667,73.6666667,13.333 3333
Tofalar,0.6,5.5,0,1.1,9.4,75.3,7.8
Tu,2.5,1.6,0,0.1,2.4,14.3,78.9
Tubalar_Altai,6.2,10.6,0,1.2,24.4,38.8,18.4
Tubalar_Artybash,5.4,9.3,0,0.3,24.6,40.7,19.3
Tujia,0,0,0,0,0,2.125,97.875
Turkish,35.1,42.8,0,1.1,13.6,4.2,3.1
Turkmen,24.375,22.25,0,0.75,17.25,18,16.875
Tuvinian,2.8,5.1,0,0.3,9.8,58.5,23.2
Tuvinian_Erzin,2.8,5.6,0,0,7.8,55,28.8
Udmurt,4.8,23.5,0,5.1,41.4,25,0.2
Ukrainian,5.8333333,40.8333333,0,12.1666667,39.833 3333,1.3333333,0.5
Ukrainian_Lviv,7.6666667,42.3333333,0.3333333,11.6 666667,36.6666667,1,0.3333333
Ukrainian_North,4.625,41.875,0.25,12.25,39.5,0.625 ,0.875
Ukrainian_Sumskaya,5.3333333,42,0,12.6666667,39.33 33333,0.6666667,0.6666667
Ulchi,0,0,0,0,0,61.7272727,38.2727273
Uyghur,18.6,13.6,0,0.7,15.4,18.4,33.5
Veps,0.4,34.5,0,12.9,42.9,9.4,0.1
Xibo,0.8571429,1.7142857,0,0,0.4285714,26.7142857, 70.4285714
Yakut,2.1,4.3,0,0.6,4.3,65.6,23.2
Yi,0,0,0,0,0,9.2222222,90.7777778
Yukagir_Forest,0.2727273,3,0,1,5.9090909,83.909090 9,5.7272727

New Hungarian samples


Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-31,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:AN-376,0,0,11,0,0,56,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:FU-215,0,2,9,0,1,62,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:KFP-30a,0,1,10,0,2,54,33
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2:MM-245,0,0,9,0,0,61,30
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1:KFP-7,0,0,8,0,0,62,29
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:CS-465,0,1,5,0,3,58,33
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:FGD-4,0,0,11,0,2,54,32
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2:KV-3369,0,2,10,0,1,61,27
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-213,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2:CSPF-37,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Avar_Early:ACG-19,5,17,7,2,6,41,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:AN-286,0,39,11,15,35,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:FU-193,10,40,11,3,20,7,7
Hungary_Avar_Early:HC-168,19,39,11,1,18,9,4
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-61,11,26,10,2,17,21,13
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-80,2,5,10,1,9,42,31
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-83,6,19,10,3,15,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-131,7,55,15,3,20,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-151,1,3,13,1,9,40,33
Hungary_Avar_Early:MM-240,9,26,12,1,22,20,10
Hungary_Avar_Early:MS-43,8,48,14,5,23,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Early:MT-29,4,19,12,1,10,33,21
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-17,12,48,10,6,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SSD-58,10,54,13,1,21,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-181,5,40,10,7,31,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZF-371,14,45,12,3,16,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-102,14,57,15,0,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZK-213,7,27,13,0,6,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-76,13,29,10,0,20,16,12
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-127,7,22,10,0,14,26,20
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-187,3,6,10,0,12,43,26
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZOD1-829,11,44,9,10,27,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Early:SZRV-54,11,23,11,1,17,20,17
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:DK-701,3,33,10,9,34,8,3
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite:KFP-6,1,21,8,6,17,31,15
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3:SZF-43,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:ALT-77,10,52,10,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle:KPM-14,14,54,14,2,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-369,8,44,12,7,24,2,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-412,15,48,12,4,21,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ALT-596,10,48,13,5,23,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-11,12,32,8,4,21,12,10
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-14,6,43,9,7,26,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-17,11,29,9,2,17,18,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-19,8,12,8,1,15,33,23
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-21,5,23,11,0,16,26,19
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-24,6,13,9,0,15,32,26
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-43,10,42,11,5,24,4,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-49,20,27,5,5,33,7,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:ARK-50,6,12,8,0,8,40,25
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-10,11,50,14,4,19,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:HH-22,10,45,10,7,25,1,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK1-368,14,51,12,2,20,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-441,4,11,13,0,7,43,22
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-445,5,17,11,3,11,33,20
Hungary_Avar_Late:KK2-670,0,4,12,0,3,54,28
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-37,17,43,11,2,15,6,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBH-52,6,49,12,4,29,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-51,13,30,10,2,18,16,11
Hungary_Avar_Late:OBT-108,18,50,10,1,17,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-12,10,43,10,5,20,7,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-200,9,42,10,3,22,8,5
Hungary_Avar_Late:PV-205,5,26,11,2,17,23,16
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZK-130,13,48,11,2,24,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-62,13,44,9,6,20,4,4
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-70,11,44,9,5,26,3,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZKT-89,13,47,9,5,19,4,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZM-332,13,50,14,2,15,2,3
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-67,13,40,12,1,19,8,7
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-168,10,33,10,2,18,15,12
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-266,1,5,11,0,8,44,32
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-277,12,33,10,5,17,10,13
Hungary_Avar_Late:SZRV-316,10,27,9,3,14,19,18
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-509,3,44,12,9,31,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-798,7,44,9,8,31,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Late:TMH-1273,5,45,11,8,29,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Late:TTSZ-43,2,14,10,0,10,40,24
Hungary_Avar_Late:VPB-31,8,46,12,3,23,2,6
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:KV-3450,6,16,8,3,12,34,21
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite:VPB-307,7,22,10,1,14,29,18
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1:KK1-251,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ALT-414,11,48,13,4,23,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:ARK-38,12,48,12,4,22,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-265,12,51,13,3,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2:SZKT-311,16,48,11,4,20,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4:OBT-3,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:CSPF-182,2,14,9,0,9,42,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KD-16,8,27,9,0,20,20,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-188,13,39,11,1,19,10,7
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-517,7,48,10,8,27,0,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KDA-520,12,38,11,0,19,9,11
Hungary_Avar_Middle:KPM-23,13,46,12,5,18,2,4
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MS-50,9,45,13,8,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-17,9,45,13,6,24,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-23,4,20,10,4,16,27,20
Hungary_Avar_Middle:MT-74,0,6,10,1,3,56,24
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-116,9,43,9,7,22,7,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:PV-125,11,35,12,5,21,9,6
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-35,1,8,12,1,6,49,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-144,10,50,12,3,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-151,7,46,13,6,25,0,2
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SSD-198,11,54,16,0,19,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-24,5,49,12,7,27,1,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-38,10,52,12,4,21,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-255,15,54,12,0,15,0,3
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZM-259,14,49,12,2,18,4,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle:SZRV-147,9,25,9,3,17,21,16
Hungary_Avar_Middle:TMH-756,7,50,13,6,24,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite:KV-3367,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:ALT-224,11,60,13,0,16,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1:SZK-180,16,54,11,1,18,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2:HH-102,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3:TMH-388,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4:KDA-485,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ALT-442,8,48,9,6,28,0,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:ARK-41,11,24,11,2,19,21,13
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:JHT-154,16,45,12,2,21,3,1
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK1-245,22,54,13,0,10,1,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KK2-429,4,12,9,1,8,42,26
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate:KPM-27,13,43,13,3,19,6,4
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite:KV-3456,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZA-154,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:KeF1-10936,2,14,10,0,32,38,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:LB-1432,2,14,12,1,34,35,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:MH1-23,5,12,9,4,31,38,1
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-4,4,13,7,2,34,38,3
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-6,1,14,12,1,32,36,4
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:SZAK-7,2,11,9,3,32,40,2
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1:TCS-2,5,14,8,2,29,36,5
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K2-29,8,16,6,2,25,35,9
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:K3-6,7,15,11,2,25,33,6
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2:SZAK-1,3,15,12,0,29,36,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-5,10,50,13,5,20,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-43,4,43,13,8,29,1,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-50,6,35,9,10,31,7,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-86,15,52,11,3,18,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-88,10,25,11,2,23,20,9
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-157,4,45,11,7,32,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-229,4,46,11,10,28,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-231,9,24,9,2,24,22,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:HMSZ-245,6,45,12,10,26,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-154,9,47,8,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-161,9,46,9,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:IBE-176,8,47,9,7,28,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-1,7,31,11,6,25,16,5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-2,4,37,11,8,29,8,3
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-19,7,47,12,6,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:NTH-20,8,45,9,9,29,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-23,6,44,8,9,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-28,4,32,9,6,30,16,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-38,3,43,12,10,30,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-57,10,46,11,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-200,6,20,8,4,28,26,8
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:PLE-216,8,27,12,3,22,15,13
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-66,7,47,11,10,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-81,8,43,10,5,29,0,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-98,5,43,9,11,32,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-106,2,44,11,9,34,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-143,8,31,9,6,25,12,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-182,10,46,9,7,26,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SH-251,4,44,8,7,32,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-20,6,49,11,9,25,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-29,7,43,8,8,31,3,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-44,11,48,8,8,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZA-52,8,29,8,5,21,19,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-394,12,45,11,7,24,1,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-426,8,31,12,5,25,13,6
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:SZOD-566,15,23,8,4,18,20,12
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-561,7,41,9,8,28,5,2
Hungary_Conq_Commoner:VPB-588,6,49,11,9,24,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1:SZOD-376,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:PLE-195,6,48,11,7,26,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3:SH-175,10,47,9,6,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4:SZA-7,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5:IBE-206,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-49,8,43,11,9,24,3,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-75,0,40,14,10,35,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-87,5,45,12,9,27,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:AGY-92,4,9,12,0,9,41,26
Hungary_Conq_Elite:BK-2,8,31,9,8,28,14,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:CSU-11,8,45,8,9,27,2,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-1,10,34,9,5,27,11,3
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-10,4,38,9,10,28,4,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K1-3286,8,15,9,0,12,35,21
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-16,3,26,9,5,25,22,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-18,6,32,9,4,24,15,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-33,13,49,12,4,21,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K2-61,4,14,9,1,21,38,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-12,17,29,10,3,22,9,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:K3-13,7,28,5,7,30,17,7
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-500,11,21,11,2,23,22,11
Hungary_Conq_Elite:KH-596,8,48,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-4,1,21,9,2,33,30,5
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-9,3,34,13,5,33,9,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:MH1-14,7,26,10,8,27,16,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite:NK-2,8,16,7,3,11,38,17
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-16,11,28,8,2,20,20,10
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-23,11,36,8,5,24,8,8
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SE-114,11,50,10,5,23,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-3,6,26,9,4,23,24,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SEO-4,13,17,8,2,20,27,14
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SO-5,7,23,9,3,23,26,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-2,9,38,10,8,29,2,4
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-9,9,17,11,1,18,32,12
Hungary_Conq_Elite:SP-10,6,23,10,1,26,25,9
Hungary_Conq_Elite:TCS-5,9,45,11,7,27,0,1
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-167,2,43,10,10,33,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite:VPB-310,8,24,10,3,27,23,6
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4:TCS-18,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5:SE-64,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-90,7,39,11,6,27,6,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-106,6,43,10,8,29,2,2
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-107,7,43,12,10,26,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:IBE-116,9,42,10,9,27,2,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-88,6,46,11,7,29,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-106,4,44,12,10,30,0,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-107,4,32,10,4,30,15,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:MH-153,6,44,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-95,3,33,10,6,30,12,7
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-115,10,30,12,4,24,13,8
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-327,9,30,8,4,27,18,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-384,7,37,10,7,29,6,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-418,10,31,10,5,26,13,5
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:PLE-441,6,40,9,9,29,3,4
Hungary_Early_Arpadian:VPB-118,8,50,11,8,23,0,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5:VPB-600,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Hun:ASZK-1,10,24,11,4,38,9,5
Hungary_Hun:CSB-3,9,40,13,8,26,1,3
Hungary_Hun:CSB-9,0,33,8,15,43,0,0
Hungary_Hun:KMT-2785,3,24,9,5,24,20,15
Hungary_Hun:MSG-1,0,1,12,0,4,43,40
Hungary_Hun:SEI-5,9,40,11,8,29,2,0
Hungary_Hun:SEI-6,4,46,12,5,31,0,1
Hungary_Hun:SZLA-646,3,40,11,11,36,0,0
Hungary_Hun:VZ-12673,2,2,9,0,10,40,37
Hungary_Starcevo_EN:ANY-4027,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:HGO-26,2,71,17,8,0,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN:VM-33,2,72,17,5,2,2,0

New Hungarian averages


Hungary_Avar_Early,8.2173913,31.7826087,11.2608696 ,2.8695652,17.6086957,16.9130435,11.3478261
Hungary_Avar_Early_Elite,2,27,9,7.5,25.5,19.5,9
Hungary_Avar_Early_EU_Core3,7,50,11,7,25,0,0
Hungary_Avar_EarlyMiddle,12,53,12,3,19.5,0,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late,9.325,34.95,10.475,3.35,19.25,13 .2,9.425
Hungary_Avar_Late_Elite,6.5,19,9,2,13,31.5,19.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core1,17,54,12,2,14,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core2,12.75,48.75,12.25,3.75, 21.25,1,0.5
Hungary_Avar_Late_EU_Core4,8,44,10,10,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle,8.4545455,38.3181818,11.454545 5,3.5,19.0909091,11.7727273,7.4090909
Hungary_Avar_Middle_Elite,5,14,8,0,8,43,23
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core1,13.5,57,12,0.5,17,0,0
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core2,11,51,10,4,21,2,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core3,5,46,13,7,28,1,1
Hungary_Avar_Middle_EU_Core4,5,48,11,9,28,0,0
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate,12.3333333,37.6666667,11.1 666667,2.3333333,17.5,12.1666667,7.5
Hungary_Avar_MiddleLate_Elite,0,2,11,1,3,57,27
Hungary_Commoner_Conq_Asia_Core2,5,15,8,3,27,33,10
Hungary_Conq_Commoner,7.3947368,40.3421053,10.0526 316,7.0526316,26.5263158,5.4473684,3.1315789
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core1,10,61,14,0,15,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core3,8,47.5,10,6.5,26.5, 0,0.5
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core4,7,46,10,9,27,0,0
Hungary_Conq_Commoner_EU_Core5,3,42,12,10,31,0,2
Hungary_Conq_Elite,7.4242424,30.7272727,9.7575758, 4.9393939,24.3333333,15.5757576,7.2727273
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core4,11,42,10,10,27,1,0
Hungary_Conq_Elite_EU_Core5,5,42,8,10,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Arpadian,6.8,38.9333333,10.4666667,7 ,27.6666667,6.2666667,3.0666667
Hungary_Early_Arpadian_EU_Core5,5,43,9,11,31,1,1
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,6,0,1,67,26
Hungary_Early_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,0.75,9.75,0,0.75,5 8.25,30.5
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core1,0,0,8,0,0,62,2 9
Hungary_Early_Elite_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,1,8.6666667, 0,2,57.6666667,30.6666667
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core1,3,13.1428571,9.57142 86,1.8571429,32,37.2857143,3.1428571
Hungary_Elite_Conq_Asia_Core2,6,15.3333333,9.66666 67,1.3333333,26.3333333,34.6666667,7
Hungary_Hun,4.4444444,27.7777778,10.6666667,6.2222 222,26.7777778,12.7777778,11.2222222
Hungary_Late_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,3,7,0,1,57,31
Hungary_Middle_Avar_Asia_Core2,0,2,9,0,1,60,28
Hungary_Starcevo_EN,2,76,19,1,1,1,0
Hungary_Tisza_LN,2,71.5,17,6.5,1,1.5,0

https://i.imgur.com/JkBmV6t.png

[Albertón]

Very wonderful thread,

[Blondie]

So who brought the Hungarian language, the hungarus or the conquerors?

IMO it was the conquerors who brought it. It had to be a population with significant amount of N haplogroup. Since the "Hungarus" people, as you describe them, don't seem to have a strong Uralic component, it makes it very likely that the conquerors brought that influence.

At the same time, if the language was that of a minority (the conquerors), it would have been very difficult to impose it to the majority, particularly to an illiterate population. Also, the conquerors didn't have the advantage the Slavs had, the use of a Slavic language in Church. So probably the Hungarian language was adopted slowly by creating a social ladder based on assimilation into the culture.

Related to this, certain Vlach groups under Hungarian influence used clan-based organization ("neam" means clan in Romanian, and is derived from Hungarian), and that practice survived for quite a long time during the medieval period in Moldova. Wallachians, although more Balkanic in nature, have always had a distaste for anything clan based, possibly a remnant of eastern roman culture.

This genetic result analized mostly the commoners (hungarus), 2/5 of them had uralic paternal origin:

http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/fokozatok/PDF/Kovacsne_Csanyi_Bernadett/PhDertekezes_CsanyiB.pdf

Their mtda is 95% european, check the "köznépi":

https://m.nyest.hu/media/a-honfoglalas-kori-es-a-ma-elo-mgyar-populaciok-mtdns-haplocsoportjai.jpg?large

The hungarus spoked the modern hungarian language for sure because they used hungarian names, topography. The real question is were the conquerors uralic speaker or not.

[Roy]

It's not my problem if you don't know the Latin alphabet or know how to count, then. You've waxed poetic about Uralics and haplogroup N in post #4, but completely ignore the dominance of R1. Not only is N a minority, but it is not even the largest haplogroup by %. Yet you claim that these must be the "core" of the conquerors because N is associated with Mansi? Amazingly talented leap of faith. You're the one who had to frame the article in post #4. Also, 15%? Really? Is it because you are again, like so many other people, attributing "Turkicness" to exclusively East Asian admixture? Now you are just making the lines tighter intentionally as to what is "Turkic" so as to again, minimize the input.

At least now we live in a time where the question is not "if" but "how much." You can move your goalposts all you'd like, but you will never erase these facts without erasing the Hungarian identity.

Do we know though precisely the haplogroups of Mansi around the similar time frame of the conquest in Pannonia? Perhaps they were not identical to what they are now.

[ixulescu]

This genetic result analized mostly the commoners (hungarus), 2/5 of them had uralic paternal origin:

http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/fokozatok/PDF/Kovacsne_Csanyi_Bernadett/PhDertekezes_CsanyiB.pdf

Their mtda is 95% european, check the "köznépi":

The hungarus spoked the modern hungarian language for sure because they used hungarian names, topography.

A population high in Uralic ancestry would be the easiest explanation for Hungarian being Uralic. In that case it wouldn't even matter what language the conquerors spoke.

The problem with this is that modern Hungarians have almost no Uralic haplogroups (1% or less). When did that ancestry disappeared?

[Turul Karom]

Do we know though precisely the haplogroups of Mansi around the similar time frame of the conquest in Pannonia? Perhaps they were not identical to what they are now.

Probably not indeed, but then are they (the Mansi of today) the "Mansi?" The entire point of haplogroups is an attempt to trace a map back through history using Y-DNA as a route of migration. Shouting only about N while ignoring R1 dominance (and the presence of other Y haplos) is hypocritical.

Imagine saying that "the strong presence of N indicates a core of Mansi-related population" when the majority of the haplogroups matches Turkic graves (including the Y haplogroup of the founding Hungarian royal dynasty). They might then claim that," oh, the N haplos were the elite." An N elite with an R1 dynasty and the presence of I2 chieftains? LOL ok.

Also, there are far more % N haplos in Avar graves (who are called Turkic peoples), so are they actually Uralic Mansi graves? Hell, there were just as many Conquer Hungarian R1b graves alone as there were N graves in total.

The false narrative unravels in real time as the science continues to reveal the truth. People will always scratch their heads like idiots when trying to makes sense of Hungarian origins if they consistently leave out the Turkic genetic element in favor of only Khanty-Mansi elements or eventually conclude that Hungarians must have been replaced entirely. Never mind that Hungarians (including myself and many other Hungarian users on TA) match conqueror-era graves via shared Turkic genetics. On my full genome sequencing, I have Kyrgyz, Uyghur, Turk, Chuvash, etc. genetics together in one result without any recent "new to the village" Turkic member in my family tree that I can find, and I do extensive genealogy research on it. Did an Uyghur take a plane into Hungary in 1600? Where do all of these eastern steppe genetics come from in modern Hungarians?

It's a giant game of "hear no Turkic, see no Turkic" and covering one's eyes for some people, but thankfully, as the last decade of science has shown, this little game is coming to an end.


A population high in Uralic ancestry would be the easiest explanation for Hungarian being Uralic. In that case it wouldn't even matter what language the conquerors spoke.

The problem with this is that modern Hungarians have almost no Uralic haplogroups (1% or less). When did that ancestry disappeared?

You are a perfect example of my above point. It has higher Turkic ancestry in both cultural and haplogroup representation. Hungarians were called by Muslim and Byzantine sources as bilingual. Ruling dynasty was R1a-Z93. Unless you are about to say that the Osman house has Mansi origins because R1a-Z93 must be a Mansi haplo..

[gixajo]

"From proximal sources Conq_Asia_Core1 could be consistently modelled from 50% Mansi, 35% Early/Late Sarmatian and 15% Scytho-Siberian-outlier/Xiongnu/Hun ancestries, and Conq_Asia_Core2 had comparable models with shifted proportions."

Something like this?:


Conq_Asia_Core1,0.0903918,-0.089627825,0.072459725,0.056927575,-0.05235135,-0.003471125,0.00654995,0.008327825,-0.012962475,-0.033216325,0.021264875,-0.00303635,0.009488275,-0.045079225,-0.001402425,-0.0022226,-0.005138975,-0.000214875,-0.003750725,-0.005824725,-0.0064155,0.01347725,0.007512,-0.0007943,-0.004634675

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
50.0 Mansi
35.0 Sarmatian_KAZ
5.0 Hun_elite_Antiquity
5.0 Scythian_RUS_Urals
5.0 Xiongnu_Central_Asian

If you prefer different references to do another proxy, just tell it.

[Blondie]

A population high in Uralic ancestry would be the easiest explanation for Hungarian being Uralic. In that case it wouldn't even matter what language the conquerors spoke.

They knew turkic that's 100%, because greek sources mentioned it. Although at this time in the steppe the turkic language was such lingua franca like english today, so the turkic language was not necessary their native language. According to Anonymus they also used hungarian words just like the hungarus, when they named regions and cities. Most likely they were turkic and uralic speakers at same time. Anonymus said the hungarus and the conquerors had same origin who had been separated from each other. Many hungarus were hostile towards the magyars, but basically it was the only local ethnicity which partly supported the conquerors.
The origin of hungarus is unknown, according to Anonymus they were citizens of Hunnic Empire and they lived here since 5. century. Is it true or not we don't know, but the hungarus vs conqueror different identity is still remained until the 18-19. century. In the medieval age István Werbőczy clearly said that only the magyar noble class has right to belong the hungarian nation because they are descedants of conquerors, hungarus aren't. This point of view is changed in the 19. century when the hungarian nationalism is rather based on the peoples and not the elite.


The problem with this is that modern Hungarians have almost no Uralic haplogroups (1% or less). When did that ancestry disappeared?

The answer is very simple: many thing happened in the 1100 years inculding migration, wars, tatar destruction, ottoman destruction and the non hungarians who melted into hungarians were not uralic. But there are some connection with other uralics: the language, or this mtdna haplogroup:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png

[Blondie]

Ruling dynasty was R1a-Z93. Unless you are about to say that the Osman house has Mansi origins because R1a-Z93 must be a Mansi haplo..

In fact the r1a-z93 originated from Europe:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/indo-european-indo-iranian-migrations-1100x481.jpg

It has iranic origin not turkic origin, turks just assimilated tons of iranic people in Central Asia, but it doesn't mean its originally turkic:


Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.

The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.

Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.

The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.

The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

In fact the r1a-z93 originated from Europe:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/indo-european-indo-iranian-migrations-1100x481.jpg

It has iranic origin not turkic origin, turks just assimilated tons of iranic people in Central Asia, but it doesn't mean its originally turkic:



https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian

why did R1b come to dominate in western Europe, and R1a in Eastern Europe?

why did y-haplotype I remain common in Balkans and Scandinavia ?

[Turul Karom]

In fact the r1a-z93 originated from Europe:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/indo-european-indo-iranian-migrations-1100x481.jpg

It has iranic origin not turkic origin, turks just assimilated tons of iranic people in Central Asia, but it doesn't mean its originally turkic:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-Iranian

I have read and understand this argument before.

I don't believe in a "singular" haplogroup for any peoples' meta ethnicity. It is also practically impossible to determine who was the "first" haplos of any meta ethnicity who first founded their sub-ethnicity name outside of perhaps highly-isolated island nations. Perhaps with time, this will change, but that would mean millions and millions of graves that need finding and sequencing. Only thing that matters is what DNA and material are found in 100% confirmed graves from people at the time being studied. If we look at Proto-Magyars, Proto-Turks, Proto-Uralics, whatever and so on, how far do we go back before we stop? Africa? Are proto-proto-proto-proto Magyars even able to be called such when the tribal names that went into making the Onogurs did not even exist yet?

Regardless, the point of my talk about R1a-Z93 is that it's hilarious Dunai would claim that he thinks N haplo is dominant (it isn't; not a majority and not even by largest %), making it more likely to have a Mansi-related core (we don't, just Mansi contribution) while also ignoring the fact that this N elite somehow had a R1a ruler. It's an argument of willful ignorance.

Plus, Hungarian tribal names were Turkic. Szeklers are debated as non-Hungarian Turkics absorbed during the invasion of Europe mostly because of the tribal name alone. The top theory in that respect is that Székely is from the Bulgar-Kipchack Turk Esegel. I don't think this is so because again, the Székely name only doesn't make sense if someone's argument is that Hungarians were not predominantly Turkic-oriented. After all, why would an Ugric people use Turkic tribal and personal names? The answer is because Székely people are not a "different people" but a branch of Hungarians who kept the Turkicness because of historical chance; remember that there have been other Székely groups outside of Transylvania within Hungary. This is why we have more Turkic genetics, too. Hence, we are not a group of "different people" but a part of the original conquest.

Again, it is silly, because things will not make sense only if historians and geneticists refuse to look at the Turkic influence on Hungary and Hungarians as a whole.

[Jana]

Something like this?:


Conq_Asia_Core1,0.0903918,-0.089627825,0.072459725,0.056927575,-0.05235135,-0.003471125,0.00654995,0.008327825,-0.012962475,-0.033216325,0.021264875,-0.00303635,0.009488275,-0.045079225,-0.001402425,-0.0022226,-0.005138975,-0.000214875,-0.003750725,-0.005824725,-0.0064155,0.01347725,0.007512,-0.0007943,-0.004634675

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
50.0 Mansi
35.0 Sarmatian_KAZ
5.0 Hun_elite_Antiquity
5.0 Scythian_RUS_Urals
5.0 Xiongnu_Central_Asian

If you prefer different references to do another proxy, just tell it.


So half Ugric, 35% Iranic, 15% Turkic.

[gixajo]

So half Ugric, 35% Iranic, 15% Turkic.

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 4.5981% / 0.04598104
54.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
28.0 Nganassan
7.6 Han
6.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
1.2 WHG

Modern:

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 1.3875% / 0.01387467 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.4 Udmurt
28.6 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
17.2 Sarikoli_China
11.2 Ket
10.6 Mansi

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 2.3877% / 0.02387651 | ADC: 0.5x RC
46.0 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
44.8 Udmurt
9.2 Bashkir

Curiously I´ve read that best modern proxy for those people were Bashkirs, and:

Distance to: Conq_Asia_Core1
0.05132589 Bashkir
0.07064220 Tatar_Siberian
0.07787376 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.08129141 Udmurt
0.09388150 Besermyan
0.10001303 Saami
0.10495878 Mansi
0.10655921 Mari
0.10786311 Yukagir_Forest
0.11074486 Chuvash

Anyway, many different references could have been used for that 35% Sarmatian and specially for the restant 15%, and the proxy would have changed considerably.

Edit:Personally I see it too much "Siberian", I´ve would expect also those conquerors more Central Asian-like.:noidea:

[Turul Karom]

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 4.5981% / 0.04598104
54.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
28.0 Nganassan
7.6 Han
6.6 TUR_Barcin_N
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
1.2 WHG

Modern:

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 1.3875% / 0.01387467 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.4 Udmurt
28.6 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
17.2 Sarikoli_China
11.2 Ket
10.6 Mansi

Target: Conq_Asia_Core1
Distance: 2.3877% / 0.02387651 | ADC: 0.5x RC
46.0 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
44.8 Udmurt
9.2 Bashkir

Curiously I´ve read that best modern proxy for those people were Bashkirs, and:

Distance to: Conq_Asia_Core1
0.05132589 Bashkir
0.07064220 Tatar_Siberian
0.07787376 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.08129141 Udmurt
0.09388150 Besermyan
0.10001303 Saami
0.10495878 Mansi
0.10655921 Mari
0.10786311 Yukagir_Forest
0.11074486 Chuvash

Anyway, many different references could have been used for that 35% Sarmatian and specially for the restant 15%, and the proxy would have changed considerably.

Edit:Personally I see it too much "Siberian", I´ve would expect also those conquerors more Central Asian-like.:noidea:

They are. Note that the top three groups distance-wise are a Turkic people. Conquerors (aside from moderate Hunnic admixture) were not from present-day Mongolia. Western Turkic groups are still Turkic groups. Also nothing odd about "Siberian" since wave after wave after wave of steppe people traveled through the region and into the plains of Western Eurasia.

[Hektor12]

0.05132589 Bashkir
0.07064220 Tatar_Siberian
0.07787376 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye


[Noob Alert]
Can you post K12b of this 3?

[Hektor12]

It has iranic origin not turkic origin, turks just assimilated tons of iranic people in Central Asia, but it doesn't mean its originally turkic:



The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.


You call it assimilation but i call it rather "founding" of the western Turkic people, pretty similar to founding of Hungarian nation. In fact, all Turkic peoples as early as Xiognu had ancestry from Central Asian-Siberian Aryan cultures and for me all those aryan cultures like Sintashta, Andronovo, Afanasievo etc.. are founding cores of Turkic peoples.

[Dunai]

The half Ugric, 1/3 Sarmartian, 15% Hun is based on the autosomal approximation of Hungarian Conquerors, not the distribution percentage of their Y-DNA. The current paper didn't publish yet the full list of which specific Y-DNA belonged to each Hungarian Conqueror individual, this will appear in a later peer-reviewed version of the study.

[gixajo]

[Noob Alert]
Can you post K12b of this 3?

Of which 3? These ones? Why for?


Bashkir_Central,9.33,19.12,0.42,0.68,10.78,37.02,1 .35,0.08,1.19,10.80,9.09,0.13
Bashkir_North,8.37,17.30,0.20,0.55,11.90,40.91,1.8 0,0.02,1.01,7.60,10.19,0.16
Bashkir_South,10.99,24.14,0.23,1.19,7.55,29.65,1.6 4,0.13,0.61,15.92,7.83,0.12
Tatar_Siberia,9.49,26.48,0.18,1.51,6.07,27.55,2.06 ,0.07,0.87,18.14,7.58,0.01
Tatar_Zabolotniye,10.68,36.15,0.01,0.89,3.37,31.84 ,1.39,0.19,0.00,13.15,2.32,0.00


That noob alert is for you or for me? And if for me, why exactly?

[Turul Karom]

The half Ugric, 1/3 Sarmartian, 15% Hun is based on the autosomal approximation of Hungarian Conquerors, not the distribution percentage of their Y-DNA. The current paper didn't publish yet the full list of which specific Y-DNA belonged to each Hungarian Conqueror individual, this will appear in a later peer-reviewed version of the study.

Addresses zero points countering you hanging your hat on haplogroup N. Pointless.

[gixajo]

Bashkir_Central,9.33,19.12,0.42,0.68,10.78,37.02,1 .35,0.08,1.19,10.80,9.09,0.13
Bashkir_North,8.37,17.30,0.20,0.55,11.90,40.91,1.8 0,0.02,1.01,7.60,10.19,0.16
Bashkir_South,10.99,24.14,0.23,1.19,7.55,29.65,1.6 4,0.13,0.61,15.92,7.83,0.12
Tatar_Siberia,9.49,26.48,0.18,1.51,6.07,27.55,2.06 ,0.07,0.87,18.14,7.58,0.01
Tatar_Zabolotniye,10.68,36.15,0.01,0.89,3.37,31.84 ,1.39,0.19,0.00,13.15,2.32,0.00




And a Bashkir average based in these 3 Bashkir references:


Bashkir:Average_n3,9.56,20.19,0.28,0.81,10.08,35.8 6,1.60,0.08,0.94,11.44,9.04,0.14

[Dunai]

Addresses zero points countering you hanging your hat on haplogroup N. Pointless.

I read the ca. 40% N haplogroup estimation from someone who is in contact with the research group on another forum, but indeed, until it comes out officially it isn't a fully reliable information, but I thought I would still share it. However we already know the autosomal composition and that clearly points out to a dominant Ugric component in Conquerors, only you seem to be unable to cope with this fact.

[Turul Karom]

I read the ca. 40% N haplogroup estimation from someone who is in contact with the research group on another forum, but indeed, until it comes out officially it isn't a fully reliable information, but I thought I would still share it. However we already know the autosomal composition and that clearly points out to a dominant Ugric component in Conquerors, only you seem to be unable to cope with this fact.

Oh, cool game of telephone, so you read and heard from a person who is supposedly in contact with someone else on the inside while also neglecting to mention that fact in your assertion about N in the first place. Glad it took you 11 pages to admit this. But I am the one who is biased. You need to address the questions I made on the second page.

Your autosomal composition puts conquerors with other Turkics (Bashkir, Tatar) as closest populations and not the Mansi. So unless these are suddenly Ugrics, then the "50% Ugric DNA" is incredibly subjective and also fails to explain why modern Hungarians match conquerors via shared Turkic genetics more than Ugric genetics.

The study also says we are directly related to Huns via conquerors, which I frankly thought would have raised the most eyebrows.

[Jana]

Oh, cool game of telephone, so you read and heard from a person who is supposedly in contact with someone else on the inside while also neglecting to mention that fact in your assertion about N in the first place. Glad it took you 11 pages to admit this. But I am the one who is biased. You need to address the questions I made on the second page.

Your autosomal composition puts conquerors with other Turkics (Bashkir, Tatar) as closest populations and not the Mansi. So unless these are suddenly Ugrics, then the "50% Ugric DNA" is incredibly subjective and also fails to explain why modern Hungarians match conquerors via shared Turkic genetics more than Ugric genetics.

The study also says we are directly related to Huns via conquerors, which I frankly thought would have raised the most eyebrows.

If somebody is half Ugric, they won't cluster with Mansi who are full Ugric. It's actually logical mixed Ugric-Iranic-Turkic population will cluster relatively close to Bashkir and Tatars who themselves have large Uralic admixture (and some Iranic). This Uralo-Irano-Turkic mix is perfectly in line with Magyar ethnogenesis.

[Turul Karom]

If somebody is half Ugric, they won't cluster with Mansi who are full Ugric. It's actually logical mixed Ugric-Iranic-Turkic population will cluster relatively close to Bashkir and Tatars who themselves have large Uralic admixture (and some Iranic). This Uralo-Irano-Turkic mix is perfectly in line with Magyar ethnogenesis.

I am not against this. I take issue with the idea that somehow then that the Conquerors overlap with Baskirs and Tatars, who are considered Turkic today, yet despite Conqueror culture, personal and tribal names, Tengrist faith, genetic relationship (which includes Huns!) we must call ourselves Ugric or Uralic and that even Uralo-Altaic is taboo. So weird.

It also does not address what I pointed out regarding why modern Hungarians match conquerors via shared Turkic genetics more than Ugric genetics. This is even seen here on TA. Nor does it explain what I said about the Szekler population being seen as closer to the conquering Hungarians based on genetic Turkic, not Ugric, genetics.

For years I have said that it is clear that Ugric/Uralic contribution to the founding Hungarian population is evident. Somehow, the same courtesy is not given to our Turkic side, even though it was arguably more prevalent genetically among some of the conquering Hungarians and certainly more prevalent culturally. Somehow it is this that is taboo when most Hungarians today that have conqueror genetics match along shared Turkic lines, and some people would, amazingly, rather say we have no connection to them any longer than acknowledge the Turkic genetics, names, or cultural traits because they will only want to look for elements still shared among the Mansi/Khanty groups alone.

[Chelubey]

You call it assimilation but i call it rather "founding" of the western Turkic people, pretty similar to founding of Hungarian nation. In fact, all Turkic peoples as early as Xiognu had ancestry from Central Asian-Siberian Aryan cultures and for me all those aryan cultures like Sintashta, Andronovo, Afanasievo etc.. are founding cores of Turkic peoples.

That's bullshit .
There is a famous English proverb:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
Some of the Turks do not have the intellectual courage to admit that the Scythians were Turks.
Two rivers of ancient times of Central Asia have clear Turkic etymologies:
Ural river: Turkic Jaik-(2nd century AD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_(river)
https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/vasmer/35994/%D0%AF%D0%B8%D0%BA


Yaik is old. the name of the Ural River (for example, at Pushkin), since 1775 it has been called the Ural (see) (Ely 430). The ancient name is attested in the form Δάιξ (Ptolemy VI, 14, 2 et seq.), Δαίχ (Menander Proteus, frag. 21; K. Müller, Hist. Gr. Min. 2, 54, 31), Γεήχ (Const. Bagr ., De adm. imp. 37, 2). This name is Turkic. origin, cf. Tur., Crimean-Tat., Chagat., Uig., Alt. jajuk "spread out, wide" (Radlov 3, 75 ff., 77), Chuv. Jεjǝk "Ural river" (Paasonen, CsSz. 23), Kazakh. ǯajuk – the same (Radlov 4, 19), shor., sag. čajuk "flood" (Radlov 3, 1853); see Markwart, UJb. 9, 82; Kumanen 25; Moravchik, Buz.-Turs. 2, 109; Mikkola, JSFOu 30, No 33, 11. The last scholar reconstructs for the Greek. forms in Δ Turk. source *d᾽ajuq.

Oksus river - Turkic aksu - "white water" - is still an archaic Turkic name for the Amu Darya river(5 century BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya


The Amu Darya[a] (also called the Amu, Amo River, or Jayhūn, and historically known by its Latin name Oxus or Greek Ὦξος)[2] is a major river in Central Asia and Afghanistan...
In classical antiquity, the river was known as the Ōxus in Latin and Ὦξος (Ôxos) in Greek — a clear derivative of Vakhsh, the name of the largest tributary of the river.[4] In Vedic Sanskrit, the river is also referred to as Vakṣu (वक्षु). The Brahmanda Purana refers to the river as Chaksu. The Avestan texts too refer to the River as Yakhsha/Vakhsha (and Yakhsha Arta ("upper Yakhsha") referring to the Jaxartes/Syr Darya twin river to Amu Darya).

[Nanushka]

That's bullshit .
There is a famous English proverb:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
Some of the Turks do not have the intellectual courage to admit that the Scythians were Turks.
Two rivers of ancient times of Central Asia have clear Turkic etymologies:
Ural river: Turkic Jaik-(2nd century AD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_(river)
https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/vasmer/35994/%D0%AF%D0%B8%D0%BA

Oksus river - Turkic aksu - "white water" - is still an archaic Turkic name for the Amu Darya river(5 century BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya

good points and significant contribution in etymological terms. Urals region is inherently Turkic and the existence of Turkic toponyms and hydronyms as well as Turkic ethnonyms and genetics refer to this fact. 'Jaik' is 'Yayık' which means spread or wide in today's Turkish, the same word but the term Ural itself is Turkic as well since it has the root 'Ur' which denoted ancient Turks just like Tur and Tar, and that it is given to the river and mountains in that region shows that it originally belonged to a certain tribe resided there and named them after, etymology points to that. Just like the Sabirs named Siberia and then went southwards to Caspean steppes (where they were expelled by Avars and disappeared from history), but the remnants of Sabirs still live on there, called Chuvash

and Scythians, they were solely Turkic, esp the ruling class. Even only looking at the Turkic knots in Pazyryk carpets found in kurgans proves that, let alone the other items there and Turkic runes found in Essyk kurgan. Maybe the peripherals that they later on conquered spoke iranic in the south but I find it ridiculous to talk about the term iranic as it is very recent compared to vast Turkic history and persian language is a mixture made up of Turkic, arabic and indian languages. Unfortunately it will take some years, hundreds of academic articles and many unbiased interpretations for those members here to gain their courage and honour despite there is already clear evidence regarding these facts that they are not aware of

[Hektor12]

That noob alert is for you or for me? And if for me, why exactly?

Me of course, i have 0 affiliance with this calculators and samples, i asked for help.


Some of the Turks do not have the intellectual courage to admit that the Scythians were Turks.
Kaspias says that and i support..

[Dunai]

I am not against this. I take issue with the idea that somehow then that the Conquerors overlap with Baskirs and Tatars, who are considered Turkic today, yet despite Conqueror culture, personal and tribal names, Tengrist faith, genetic relationship (which includes Huns!) we must call ourselves Ugric or Uralic and that even Uralo-Altaic is taboo. So weird.

It also does not address what I pointed out regarding why modern Hungarians match conquerors via shared Turkic genetics more than Ugric genetics. This is even seen here on TA. Nor does it explain what I said about the Szekler population being seen as closer to the conquering Hungarians based on genetic Turkic, not Ugric, genetics.

For years I have said that it is clear that Ugric/Uralic contribution to the founding Hungarian population is evident. Somehow, the same courtesy is not given to our Turkic side, even though it was arguably more prevalent genetically among some of the conquering Hungarians and certainly more prevalent culturally. Somehow it is this that is taboo when most Hungarians today that have conqueror genetics match along shared Turkic lines, and some people would, amazingly, rather say we have no connection to them any longer than acknowledge the Turkic genetics, names, or cultural traits because they will only want to look for elements still shared among the Mansi/Khanty groups alone.

You are true drama queen, always whining why is it that nobody sane in mind eats up your outdated Turanist political ideology. I haven't seen any Hungarian user so far ignoring the Turkic connection of Hungarian Conquerors, it must be your persecution mania why you would claim such a lie. It just isn't the core of Hungarian Conquerors, it's a part of it, but not their essence based on all the genetic and archeological evidence. They lived initially in the East Urals, then crossed the mountains to the Volga-Uralic region and after they moved for a brief time into the Etelköz and then finally settled into the Carpathian Basin. There is no archeological evidence which shows the Conquerors to a Central Asian origin point, there is simply none. Today even archeogenetics corroborate this Uralic origin of Conquerors. The only one that can't be proven 100% is the linguistic connection too, however when all other fields of science already point to a certain area that already matches the linguistic area of Ugric languages, then it can justifiably be claimed that they have most likely also spoken Old Hungarian. Anyways at the end of the day this is about Hungarian Conquerors, Modern Hungarians barely have anymore connection to them, so I find it even more odd that you are trying to spread fairy tales about Central Asia while we live today in East-Central Europe and we are culturally most similar to our neighbors. I can't think of anything that connects Modern Hungarians to old or modern Central Asian Turkic people (there might be), except the fascination for strong-hand leaders.

[Dunai]

Those who speak Hungarian can read here about the latest state of archeological finds regarding Hungarian Conquerors: https://www.academia.edu/69231360/A_korai_magyar_t%C3%B6rt%C3%A9nelem_r%C3%A9g%C3%A9 szeti_kutat%C3%A1sainak_aktu%C3%A1lis_eredm%C3%A9n yei_%C3%A9s_azok_lehets%C3%A9ges_nyelv%C3%A9szeti_ vonatkoz%C3%A1sai

[Blondie]

good points and significant contribution in etymological terms. Urals region is inherently Turkic and the existence of Turkic toponyms and hydronyms as well as Turkic ethnonyms and genetics refer to this fact. 'Jaik' is 'Yayık' which means spread or wide in today's Turkish, the same word but the term Ural itself is Turkic as well since it has the root 'Ur' which denoted ancient Turks just like Tur and Tar, and that it is given to the river and mountains in that region shows that it originally belonged to a certain tribe resided there and named them after, etymology points to that.

Ural is not originally turkic, it's more likely that the Ural name came from the mansi "urala" word which means mountain peak, and turks just adopted this name later when they migrated to Europe. Mansi are native in the Ural, turkics are not.

[Turul Karom]

You are true drama queen, always whining why is it that nobody sane in mind eats up your outdated Turanist political ideology. I haven't seen any Hungarian user so far ignoring the Turkic connection of Hungarian Conquerors, it must be your persecution mania why you would claim such a lie. It just isn't the core of Hungarian Conquerors, it's a part of it, but not their essence based on all the genetic and archeological evidence. They lived initially in the East Urals, then crossed the mountains to the Volga-Uralic region and after they moved for a brief time into the Etelköz and then finally settled into the Carpathian Basin. There is no archeological evidence which shows the Conquerors to a Central Asian origin point, there is simply none. Today even archeogenetics corroborate this Uralic origin of Conquerors. The only one that can't be proven 100% is the linguistic connection too, however when all other fields of science already point to a certain area that already matches the linguistic area of Ugric languages, then it can justifiably be claimed that they have most likely also spoken Old Hungarian. Anyways at the end of the day this is about Hungarian Conquerors, Modern Hungarians barely have anymore connection to them, so I find it even more odd that you are trying to spread fairy tales about Central Asia while we live today in East-Central Europe and we are culturally most similar to our neighbors. I can't think of anything that connects Modern Hungarians to old or modern Central Asian Turkic people (there might be), except the fascination for strong-hand leaders.

You can call me names, but you will never answer to the points:

Shouting only about N while ignoring R1 dominance (and the presence of other Y haplos) is hypocritical.

Imagine saying that "the strong presence of N indicates a core of Mansi-related population" when the majority of the haplogroups matches Turkic graves (including the Y haplogroup of the founding Hungarian royal dynasty). They might then claim that," oh, the N haplos were the elite." An N elite with an R1 dynasty and the presence of I2 chieftains? LOL ok.

Also, there are far more % N haplos in Avar graves (who are called Turkic peoples), so are they actually Uralic Mansi graves? Hell, there were just as many Conquer Hungarian R1b graves alone as there were N graves in total. Saying N=Mansi means that the Avars must really be Mansi and not Turkic.

The problem comes when another people somehow meets a standard for being considered Turkic that we surpass, yet we are not called Turkic and they are? It makes no sense and is clearly an example of self denial. Thank goodness most (and more every year) Hungarians wake up to this. It would be more tragic and arguable if Hungarians stood alone in this, but all Turkic nations see us as brothers and fellow Turkic peoples. This can be seen not only on the forum and online but in their national curriculums when they talk about Hungary. You are a thinking man, right? Do you find it odd that people who genetically match our meta-ethnicity say we are a part of them, but outsiders (non-Turkics) say we are not a part of that group? Or are you so jaded about Turkics that you think it is all hollow despite everyday Turks/Turkmen/Uzbeks/etc stating otherwise?

Modern Hungarians have no connection to Conquerors? Have you seen my genetic results? Have you seen yours? Have you seen the results of other Hungarian members? The irony how you constantly ignore that people match the conquerors on the Turkic line of things and not the Ugric line, hence why you are so keen to dismiss any relevance. You also argue for the 100th time about clustering culturally with neighbors as if somehow that must always force us to be more like them.

Whether it is about Turanism, Hungarian genetics, or the EU, you never engage with me in good faith and just talk right past my points. Honestly, getting called a Turkic foreigner by a few anti-Turan TA members (thanks to my genetic results no less) was more entertaining than talking to you because you don't engage with anything asked. Finally, thank you for the implication at the end of your sermon that modern Hungarians are weak-minded sheep who gravitate to dictators. Maybe people who give you thumbs up on your post need to read that you're insulting Hungarians, which includes them. I guess that's why we need the EU to wake us from our barbarism and enlighten us with the Sun of the West.

[Blondie]

Those who speak Hungarian can read here about the latest state of archeological finds regarding Hungarian Conquerors: https://www.academia.edu/69231360/A_korai_magyar_t%C3%B6rt%C3%A9nelem_r%C3%A9g%C3%A9 szeti_kutat%C3%A1sainak_aktu%C3%A1lis_eredm%C3%A9n yei_%C3%A9s_azok_lehets%C3%A9ges_nyelv%C3%A9szeti_ vonatkoz%C3%A1sai

Most important things from this source:

1. The arrival of huns caused mass migration among south uralic peoples. The old turkic words in the hungarian language originated from this time period.
2. The conquerors were bilingual.
3. The magyar migration happened in waves.
4. The old iranic words came from alans in Etelköz.
5. In Etelköz, magyars were traders and mercenaries of Rus.
6. Not all magyar migrated to the Carpathian Basin but many stayed in West Ukraine.

[Dunai]

You can call me names, but you will never answer to the points:

Shouting only about N while ignoring R1 dominance (and the presence of other Y haplos) is hypocritical.

Imagine saying that "the strong presence of N indicates a core of Mansi-related population" when the majority of the haplogroups matches Turkic graves (including the Y haplogroup of the founding Hungarian royal dynasty). They might then claim that," oh, the N haplos were the elite." An N elite with an R1 dynasty and the presence of I2 chieftains? LOL ok.

Also, there are far more % N haplos in Avar graves (who are called Turkic peoples), so are they actually Uralic Mansi graves? Hell, there were just as many Conquer Hungarian R1b graves alone as there were N graves in total. Saying N=Mansi means that the Avars must really be Mansi and not Turkic.

The problem comes when another people somehow meets a standard for being considered Turkic that we surpass, yet we are not called Turkic and they are? It makes no sense and is clearly an example of self denial. Thank goodness most (and more every year) Hungarians wake up to this. It would be more tragic and arguable if Hungarians stood alone in this, but all Turkic nations see us as brothers and fellow Turkic peoples. This can be seen not only on the forum and online but in their national curriculums when they talk about Hungary. You are a thinking man, right? Do you find it odd that people who genetically match our meta-ethnicity say we are a part of them, but outsiders (non-Turkics) say we are not a part of that group? Or are you so jaded about Turkics that you think it is all hollow despite everyday Turks/Turkmen/Uzbeks/etc stating otherwise?

Modern Hungarians have no connection to Conquerors? Have you seen my genetic results? Have you seen yours? Have you seen the results of other Hungarian members? The irony how you constantly ignore that people match the conquerors on the Turkic line of things and not the Ugric line, hence why you are so keen to dismiss any relevance. You also argue for the 100th time about clustering culturally with neighbors as if somehow that must always force us to be more like them.

Whether it is about Turanism, Hungarian genetics, or the EU, you never engage with me in good faith and just talk right past my points. Honestly, getting called a Turkic foreigner by a few anti-Turan TA members (thanks to my genetic results no less) was more entertaining than talking to you because you don't engage with anything asked. Finally, thank you for the implication at the end of your sermon that modern Hungarians are weak-minded sheep who gravitate to dictators. Maybe people who give you thumbs up on your post need to read that you're insulting Hungarians, which includes them. I guess that's why we need the EU to wake us from our barbarism and enlighten us with the Sun of the West.

Never stated ever on this forum that Modern Hungarians have no connection to Hungarian Conquerors, but what I always said it is negligible from a genetic point of view. Culturally in my opinion it is even more minimal since our mentality and value system would be completely alien to a Hungarian Conqueror, 1100 years of distance is a huge time difference. I guess it's cool and all that we are somehow related with them but I still prefer living in the present and think of the future. You are also free to dream of roaming the eternal steppes, but do it in your own name and stop generalizing as if this would be with what average Hungarians wake up and go to sleep.

[Turul Karom]

Never stated ever on this forum that Modern Hungarians have no connection to Hungarian Conquerors, but what I always said it is negligible from a genetic point of view. Culturally in my opinion it is even larger since our mentality and value system would be completely alien to a Hungarian Conqueror, 1100 years of distance is a huge time difference. I guess it's cool and all that we are somehow related with them but I still prefer living in the present and think of the future. You are also free to dream of roaming the eternal steppes, but do it in your own name and stop generalizing as if this would be with what average Hungarians wake up and go to sleep.

Negligible how? Because every Turkic group is going to cluster with non-Turkics, too (Uyghur with Sinics, Turks of Anatolia with Kurds, etc). Negligible means that it is something that is dismissable with a handwave. I don't think that even 5% is something negligible when talking about genetic connections. Funny again how it's always the Turkic-Eurasian genetics that show up rather than Ugric genetic markers for people posting results, hmm?

Culturally, nobody is like their ancestors 1000 years ago. Nobody. This is a non-starter of a point that is irrelevant to what I do in my life. I like to do similar things as homage and because it's fun or because it's a remnant of something that has been passed down over a long time and it's fun to keep the practice alive, not because I think there's going to be some literal "great awakening" where everyone goes around talking about how cool it is to be a child of the steppes 24/7. I live in the modern world, too. As I have said on the forum and will say again, I don't care if I am the last Turkic Hungarian alive. It's something that not all Hungarians need to even take up if they don't want to, but it shouldn't be something so marginalized or ignored, especially since our eastern family reaches out to us with love and kindness.

Now, are you going to address the questions I asked you in post 114 and how you said Hungarians have a fascination with dictators as the only connection to Central Asians? Because I think Hungarian members would like to hear more of your thoughts about such things. I know I certainly would.

[Hektor12]

Ural is not originally turkic, it's more likely that the Ural name came from the mansi "urala" word which means mountain peak, and turks just adopted this name later when they migrated to Europe. Mansi are native in the Ural, turkics are not.

Well..


As attested by Sigismund von Herberstein, in the 16th century Russians called the Ural range by a variety of names derived from the Russian words for rock (stone) and belt. The modern Russian name for the Urals (Урал, Ural), first appearing in the 16th–17th century during the Russian conquest of Siberia, was initially applied to its southern parts and gained currency as the name of the entire range during the 18th century. It might have been borrowed from either Turkic "stone belt"[3] (Bashkir, where the same name is used for the range), or Ob-Ugric.[4] From the 13th century, in Bashkortostan there has been a legend about a hero named Ural who sacrificed his life for the sake of his people who then poured a stone pile over his grave, which later turned into the Ural Mountains.[5][6][7] Possibilities include Bashkir үр "elevation; upland" and Mansi ур ала "mountain peak, top of the mountain",[8] V.N. Tatischev believes that this oronym is set to "belt" and associates it with the Turkic verb oralu- "gird".[8] I.G. Dobrodomov suggests a transition from Aral to Ural explained on the basis of ancient Bulgar-Chuvash dialects. Geographer E.V. Hawks believes that the name goes back to the Bashkir folklore Ural-Batyr.[8] The Evenk geographical term era "mountain" has also been theorized.[8] (cf also Ewenkī ürǝ-l (pl.) "mountains") Finno-Ugrist scholars consider Ural deriving from the Ostyak word urr meaning "chain of mountains".[9] Turkologists, on the other hand, have achieved majority support for their assertion that 'ural' in Tatar means a belt, and recall that an earlier name for the range was 'stone belt'.[10]

Mansi origin seems weak one..

[Blondie]

Shouting only about N while ignoring R1 dominance (and the presence of other Y haplos) is hypocritical.

The hungarian language is uralic, so of course we consider the uralic haplos as "original core". I hope you understand it. N or R doesn't matter because all have been found in the pre-ugric or uralic urheimat. You can read about it in the "Honfoglalók" rubicon historical magazine. I didn't say all N or R haplo are uralic, but they existed among uralics in the pre-uralic times, so these can be uralic or not uralic too, we don't know.


Imagine saying that "the strong presence of N indicates a core of Mansi-related population" when the majority of the haplogroups matches Turkic graves (including the Y haplogroup of the founding Hungarian royal dynasty). They might then claim that," oh, the N haplos were the elite." An N elite with an R1 dynasty and the presence of I2 chieftains? LOL ok.

The presence of I2 means the nomad hungarians had very close relationship with east european slavs. R1 is not necessarily turkic but it can be iranic, or slavic or even pre-ugric too, becase this haplo existed among them. How do you know that this haplo must originated from only turkic peoples? This is just your wish. Nomad magyars had closely relationship with slavs, germanics or alans too, not only with turks. But basically the whole east european steppe region was a big mix of various tribes and peoples.


Also, there are far more % N haplos in Avar graves (who are called Turkic peoples), so are they actually Uralic Mansi graves? Hell, there were just as many Conquer Hungarian R1b graves alone as there were N graves in total. Saying N=Mansi means that the Avars must really be Mansi and not Turkic.

We have no idea who were the avars exactly, their language is also unknown. We know only their names which were mostly turkic, but nomad magyar names were also turkic and they were uralic speakers, so it means nothing. The haplogroup N is originally siberian not steppe haplo, so its confirms the siberian origin of conquerors. At this time before the russification there were much more uralic people in East Europe, it's very possible that avars were partly uralic. This is the description of N1a1a haplo:

"The subclade N-M178[Phylogenetics 3] is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians (Derenko 2007 and Lappalainen 2008).
Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia and spread into Northern Europe. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region)(Derenko 2007)."




The problem comes when another people somehow meets a standard for being considered Turkic that we surpass, yet we are not called Turkic and they are? It makes no sense and is clearly an example of self denial. Thank goodness most (and more every year) Hungarians wake up to this. It would be more tragic and arguable if Hungarians stood alone in this, but all Turkic nations see us as brothers and fellow Turkic peoples. This can be seen not only on the forum and online but in their national curriculums when they talk about Hungary. You are a thinking man, right? Do you find it odd that people who genetically match our meta-ethnicity say we are a part of them, but outsiders (non-Turkics) say we are not a part of that group? Or are you so jaded about Turkics that you think it is all hollow despite everyday Turks/Turkmen/Uzbeks/etc stating otherwise?

Don't make me laugh, most hungarians have no any turkic identity (neither uralic btw), they consider themselves just hungarians nothing else. Totally irrelevant that nomad magyars and turkics had same culture 1300 years ago, nobody cares in the 21. century, 90% of hungarians do not care abpout it, but they have european identity and they feel themselves closest to other central europeans i mean culture, history and everything. An average hungarian thinks these countries like Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc are poor shitholes. The reputation of turks or Turkey also became more negative because of Orbáns anti-muslim propganda. No offense but this is the truth.


Modern Hungarians have no connection to Conquerors? Have you seen my genetic results? Have you seen yours? Have you seen the results of other Hungarian members? The irony how you constantly ignore that people match the conquerors on the Turkic line of things and not the Ugric line, hence why you are so keen to dismiss any relevance. You also argue for the 100th time about clustering culturally with neighbors as if somehow that must always force us to be more like them.

There are some connection but this is only few %, the modern hungarians and nomad magyars are two completely different population. And if a hungarian got few % turkic genetic in the test how do you know it came from the conquerors? It also can be originated from tatars or cumans (13. century), or from ottomans (16-18. century), they also have been here, so what? Its not necessarily conqueror turkic, of courseb it can be but we dont know.

[Blondie]

Mansi origin seems weak one..

According to turkologist... i have no question. So do you prefer a foreign etymology over a native etymology? lol

[Hektor12]

According to turkologist... i have no question. So do you prefer a foreign etymology over a native etymology? lol

Turkologist doesnt mean Turkish, they are academic people. Count the names in that quote= V.N. Tatischev, I.G. Dobrodomov, E.V. Hawks.

[Dunai]

Negligible how? Because every Turkic group is going to cluster with non-Turkics, too (Uyghur with Sinics, Turks of Anatolia with Kurds, etc). Negligible means that it is something that is dismissable with a handwave. I don't think that even 5% is something negligible when talking about genetic connections. Funny again how it's always the Turkic-Eurasian genetics that show up rather than Ugric genetic markers for people posting results, hmm?

Culturally, nobody is like their ancestors 1000 years ago. Nobody. This is a non-starter of a point that is irrelevant to what I do in my life. I like to do similar things as homage and because it's fun or because it's a remnant of something that has been passed down over a long time and it's fun to keep the practice alive, not because I think there's going to be some literal "great awakening" where everyone goes around talking about how cool it is to be a child of the steppes 24/7. I live in the modern world, too. As I have said on the forum and will say again, I don't care if I am the last Turkic Hungarian alive. It's something that not all Hungarians need to even take up if they don't want to, but it shouldn't be something so marginalized or ignored, especially since our eastern family reaches out to us with love and kindness.

Now, are you going to address the questions I asked you in post 114 and how you said Hungarians have a fascination with dictators as the only connection to Central Asians? Because I think Hungarian members would like to hear more of your thoughts about such things. I know I certainly would.

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.

[Turul Karom]

The hungarian language is uralic, so of course we consider the uralic haplos as "original core". I hope you understand it. N or R doesn't matter because all have been found in the pre-ugric or uralic urheimat. You can read about it in the "Honfoglalók" rubicon historical magazine. I didn't say all N or R haplo are uralic, but they existed among uralics in the pre-uralic times, so these can be uralic or not uralic too, we don't know.

Yet the conqueror class was bilingual with Y-DNA of R1a, not N. This is somehow going to be a goal scored then for a non-Turkic part of the core? The problem is that N is something that was argued by Dunai as evidence for a Mansi core, yet the Turkic group Avars are mostly N. Therefore, Avar=Mansi? I am showing him the hypocrisy of his own logic.


The presence of I2 means the nomad hungarians had very close relationship with east european slavs. R1 is not necessarily turkic but it can be iranic, or slavic or even pre-ugric too, becase this haplo existed among them. How do you know that this haplo must originated from only turkic peoples? This is just your wish. Nomad magyars had closely relationship with slavs, germanics or alans too, not only with turks. But basically the whole east european steppe region was a big mix of various tribes and peoples.

I never said that R1 is exclusively Turkic, but that it is dominant amongst many groups that are called Turkic today. Unlike Dunai, whose favorite debate tactic is to lecture and ignore questions, you sometimes put words in my mouth or extrapolate points that I don't make. If it is unintentional, then I forgive you. I consider all haplos found in Conqueror graves as Hungarians, period, regardless of autosomal admix. If we are talking about the tribes that went into making Hungarians pre-Etelköz, that is a different conversation.


We have no idea who were the avars exactly, their language is also unknown. We know only their names which were mostly turkic, but nomad magyar names were also turkic and they were uralic speakers, so it means nothing. The haplogroup N is originally siberian not steppe haplo, so its confirms the siberian origin of conquerors. At this time before the russification there were much more uralic people in East Europe, it's very possible that avars were partly uralic. This is the description of N1a1a haplo:

"The subclade N-M178[Phylogenetics 3] is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians (Derenko 2007 and Lappalainen 2008).
Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia and spread into Northern Europe. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region)(Derenko 2007)."

Yet people call Avars Turks today. You know you will not casually go online or into a textbook and find the consensus as "we don't know" but rather that they lean Turkic, with some just stating it outright. Yet, somehow, calling Hungarians even as Uralo-Altaic is a step too far? What I would like to point out is that Uralo-Altatic would be an acceptable description, but yet that "Altaic" part needs to be cut off entirely for some reason? Again, I am not even talking just about language (even though conquerors were bilingual), but in light of genetic studies, cultural studies of old Hungarians, and Tengrist faith as well as origins of many tribes that became part of the Hungarian ethnogenesis, this Uralo-Altaic is still something too far but Finno-Ugric is now replaced with Uralic? That, my friend, is an agenda.


Don't make me laugh, most hungarians have no any turkic identity (neither uralic btw), they consider themselves just hungarians nothing else. Totally irrelevant that nomad magyars and turkics had same culture 1300 years ago, nobody cares in the 21. century, 90% of hungarians do not care abpout it, but they have european identity and they feel themselves closest to other central europeans i mean culture, history and everything. An average hungarian thinks these countries like Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan etc are poor shitholes. The reputation of turks or Turkey also became more negative because of Orbáns anti-muslim propganda. No offense but this is the truth.

I do not take offense. There are people who call Szekler Transylvania a shithole and Hungary a shithole; Dunai is one who dislikes Hungary and is embarrassed by the country.

Most Hungarians don't care about anything, walking through the world with an apathy of indifference. This is not something that is even unique to us. I don't think you or Dunai even understand why I call myself a "Turkic Hungarian" in the first place. It is particularly to play homage to the fact that this is an important part of our ancestry that I think is understated and underrepresented not only historically but even still today. This is why I practice what I do as well. Our identity will not die. It is because when I travel to the places that you are calling "shitholes" I am treated as a brother. Of course these places are dangerous at times and have people who wills scam you and stuff. Hungary is no different in some areas of the country. But why did the average person who is not a sociopath treat me well? Because I shared that I was a Hungarian. Why did we have so many lovely conversations? Because our shared history. I have been treated to dinners and weddings for nothing more than a sense of companionship. Turks feel alone sometimes, too, spread out across Eurasia. They find it a relief to see a Hungarian who embraces the shared steppe past. I don't care about the government's claims about Muslims. I am not a Muslim, and they are playing up the "defender of Europe" trope of old, which is fine given that it looks like the Germans are ready to throw us all into another hellish chaos again (my heart goes out to the Germans that care about their heritage and I hope they stand strong against a government who hates them). The Hungarian government also supports Kurultaj with tax dollars, you know.


There are some connection but this is only few %, the modern hungarians and nomad magyars are two completely different population. And if a hungarian got few % turkic genetic in the test how do you know it came from the conquerors? It also can be originated from tatars or cumans (13. century), or from ottomans (16-18. century), they also have been here, so what? Its not necessarily conqueror turkic, of courseb it can be but we dont know.

I never said I could know, in fact posting before that we will never know without extensive genetic testing of the population and still unknown graves, but that doesn't make the admixture less Turkic in Hungarians today. There are people who say my sub-group is not even Hungarian, which I why we score more Turkic, which I disagree with.

It's disappointing that you just delete your posts about your opinions that Hungarian conquerors were Turkic (you did it in this thread) and completely flip your point of view of things. It makes it seem like you are embarrassed of holding different opinions or don't want people to see that you ever had a different perspective. Also, you are not Dunai, so why are you being his shield right now when he was the one that made the points that I am questioning, and he is so reluctant to answer for his nonsense? Did you also like how he called Hungarians and Central Asians the same via our apparent love of dictators?

[Roy]

Back to the article: it feels amazing when some old and seemingly far-reaching conjectures from the past actually get confirmed thanks to our modern technology & scientific research.

[Turul Karom]

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.

You are making it sound like it is an ethnicity or meta-ethnicity problem with us. For someone who is against racism, I would think that disparaging a group in such a way is against your morals. Also, if you hate the government, imagine calling yourself a "thinking person" then behaving as though a political party that is not even as old as the members that run it represent an ethnic group over 1000 years old. Everything you posts smacks of western apologia; you probably hang out with people who think Hungary sucks and need to prove you are one of the "good Hungarians" to them by extra dumping on Hungary. Sounds to me like you need better friends if that's the case.

So then, how about you address the rest of the questions from post 114?

[Turul Karom]

Back to the article: it feels amazing when some old and seemingly far-reaching conjectures from the past actually get confirmed thanks to our modern technology & scientific research.

I know, right? It would be more fun to talk about how Hungarians have not only a cultural linkl but now genetic connection to the Huns, which I thought would be the part that really got attention since it was always something so controversial and dismissed as a muth. Note how the Hunnic connection is alongside Turkic peoples as well.

[Scandal]

Why should I repeat the obvious: I already stated numerous times on this forum that I don't particularly have high opinion on Hungarians, especially since they are so immune to widespread corruption and repeatedly offer great majority with their votes, to a person who is one of the worst and most rotten leaders in the history of this country. Do you really wonder why a thinking person would hardly feel any patriotism in times like these.
https://444.hu/2018/04/09/100-ezer-fovel-tobben-szavaztak-a-fidesz-ellen-mint-a-fideszre

[Blondie]

Yet the conqueror class was bilingual with Y-DNA of R1a, not N. This is somehow going to be a goal scored then for a non-Turkic part of the core? The problem is that N is something that was argued by Dunai as evidence for a Mansi core, yet the Turkic group Avars are mostly N. Therefore, Avar=Mansi? I am showing him the hypocrisy of his own logic.

But avars are not in the turkic group, because we have no idea about their language. You can find Árpád's Y haplogroup among the pre-ugric population, or among iranics, or turkics or slavics too, but ypu said it must be 100% turkic, how? There is no evidence for that.


I never said that R1 is exclusively Turkic, but that it is dominant amongst many groups that are called Turkic today.

Actually the r1a-z93 is highest among the afghans, tajiks and kyrgyz peoples, two of these are iranic speakers.


Yet people call Avars Turks today. You know you will not casually go online or into a textbook and find the consensus as "we don't know" but rather that they lean Turkic, with some just stating it outright.

How can you exactly classify an ethnicity if you have no idea about their language? This is nonsense and i don't care the turkicist propganda site where everyone is turkic.


Yet, somehow, calling Hungarians even as Uralo-Altaic is a step too far? What I would like to point out is that Uralo-Altatic would be an acceptable description, but yet that "Altaic" part needs to be cut off entirely for some reason?

Because the hungarian lenguage is not even altaic so we have no reason to call it uralo-altaic, just because the nomad magyars got significant turkic influence it doesn't mean they were originally altaic. But by this logic the modern hungarians are latins because they have tons of latin name, they use latin writing and they are roman catholic.


Most Hungarians don't care about anything, walking through the world with an apathy of indifference.

I have talked about identity, most hungarians have hungarian identity and nothing else, not turkic, nor uralic.


I don't think you or Dunai even understand why I call myself a "Turkic Hungarian" in the first place.

I dont care your identity, this is your business, the problem is if you presents your identity as "majority hungarian" identity. This is bullshit. This is our problem.


It is particularly to play homage to the fact that this is an important part of our ancestry that I think is understated and underrepresented not only historically but even still today. This is why I practice what I do as well. Our identity will not die.

What kind of identity? You (and Dunai too btw) all forget that the core hungarian population was the hungarus and not the elite, who lived in their big castles far away from the peoples, whom they looked down as well. If you see the hungarian history the elite (the glorious descedants of counquerors) were the biggest traitors of all time. They always threw Hungary for foreigners because of their interests, however the hungarus commoners were bleeding in the wars to defend Hungary. Yes i identify myselg with the hungarus class more than the rotten elite. I'm proud that i have no any hungarian noble ancestry, but my hungarian part came from the hungarus. So why everyone thinks that old hungarians were only the conquerors? Bullshit.


It's disappointing that you just delete your posts about your opinions that Hungarian conquerors were Turkic (you did it in this thread) and completely flip your point of view of things. It makes it seem like you are embarrassed of holding different opinions or don't want people to see that you ever had a different perspective. Also, you are not Dunai, so why are you being his shield right now when he was the one that made the points that I am questioning, and he is so reluctant to answer for his nonsense? Did you also like how he called Hungarians and Central Asians the same via our apparent love of dictators?

I deleted my pro-turkic comment because i realized this is outdated. But everyone can see my other such comments from the last half years. Yes i changed my mind because of it, as i said million times i don't make identity question about it, i do care only the facts and science, i had no problem when an older source said conquerors were turkic, just like i have no problem with a new source which call them uralic. To be honest i don't identify myself with the conquerors.

I don't care what Dunai said, it's not secret that we don't like each other, and we had tons of debate in other things. There are things we agree on, just like i agree with you sometimes. In this topic Dunai is right about conquerors, but at same time he said tons of bullshit about his political ideas. I dont care, im not anyone's shied, i have an own opinion and world view what is different from yours and Dunai's opinion in general.
Btw i wanted to write a very rougly comment for Dunai yesterday, because i was sick of his another personal attacks on me with no reason, but after half hour thinking i didn't send it. He doesnt deserve such brutal humiliation.

[Dunai]

You are making it sound like it is an ethnicity or meta-ethnicity problem with us. For someone who is against racism, I would think that disparaging a group in such a way is against your morals. Also, if you hate the government, imagine calling yourself a "thinking person" then behaving as though a political party that is not even as old as the members that run it represent an ethnic group over 1000 years old. Everything you posts smacks of western apologia; you probably hang out with people who think Hungary sucks and need to prove you are one of the "good Hungarians" to them by extra dumping on Hungary. Sounds to me like you need better friends if that's the case.

So then, how about you address the rest of the questions from post 114?

You can remain calm, I won't "infest" your Nationalist circles with my "treacherous" Western morals :p

[Turul Karom]

But avars are not in the turkic group, because we have no idea about their language. You can find Árpád's Y haplogroup among the pre-ugric population, or among iranics, or turkics or slavics too, but ypu said it must be 100% turkic, how? There is no evidence for that.

Actually the r1a-z93 is highest among the afghans, tajiks and kyrgyz peoples, two of these are iranic speakers. [/QUOTE]

..speakers who have been highly influenced by Turkic genetics.


How can you exactly classify an ethnicity if you have no idea about their language? This is nonsense and i don't care the turkicist propganda site where everyone is turkic.

Apparently we do, because the largest % of Hungarian words are unknown origin, lol. Also you know I don't call everything Turkic. I never quote random blogs or websites as my academic sources, and I certainly never quote wikipedia (which is something that I have encouraged you to stop doing as well for someone who talks about the value of academic sources).


Because the hungarian lenguage is not even altaic so we have no reason to call it uralo-altaic, just because the nomad magyars got significant turkic influence it doesn't mean they were originally altaic. But by this logic the modern hungarians are latins because they have tons of latin name, they use latin writing and they are roman catholic.

It has a large Turkic %, but regardless, if the genetics and culture are Altaic in a large part then you would think that this alone would be enough to call the people Uralo-Altaic. This is why the Finno-Ugric has been abandoned in favor of "Uralic" alone. I can share with you that older F-U linguists are not happy about this in the slightest, which is mildly amusing. Plus, other nations call us Uralo-Altaic without question in their classifications. I would be fine with accepting that classification, but the almost pathological fear from the western academia at such an idea reads more like someone who is afraid of a spider than someone who is intellectually honest in their disagreement.


I have talked about identity, most hungarians have hungarian identity and nothing else, not turkic, nor uralic.

I agree with the assessment that most Hungarians see only themselves, but I think that this is because of isolation in the middle of Europe and have talked already at length about why I am happy to call myself Turkic.


I dont care your identity, this is your business, the problem is if you presents your identity as "majority hungarian" identity. This is bullshit. This is our problem.

I present it as a growing identity that will one day be a majority in an overt sense. That is what I predict for the future. I always say "more Hungarians than you think" regarding it because most Hungarians are too apathetic to care and are content in their malaise. However, as I said, this is common in the west and not a Hungarian specific problem.


What kind of identity? You (and Dunai too btw) all forget that the core hungarian population was the hungarus and not the elite, who lived in their big castles far away from the peoples, whom they looked down as well. If you see the hungarian history the elite (the glorious descedants of counquerors) were the biggest traitors of all time. They always threw Hungary for foreigners because of their interests, however the hungarus commoners were bleeding in the wars to defend Hungary. Yes i identify myselg with the hungarus class more than the rotten elite. I'm proud that i have no any hungarian noble ancestry, but my hungarian part came from the hungarus. So why everyone thinks that old hungarians were only the conquerors? Bullshit.

The identity that connects Hungarians to the past via a genetic and cultural link that transcends our time in Europe. The idea that Hungarian history should only begin in the last few hundred years is nonsense to me. This "hungarus vs. Conqueror" thing was never something that happened in Hungary. There is no book ever from the time talking about how the "hungarus" hated the conquerors or felt exploited by them before or after Christianity. The feudal system was brutal to all people in Hungary. The Germans, the Italians, Caucasians, etc who settled in Hungary and did not have any special privileges were not treated differently from any other peasantry. One of the reasons why some academics call my sub-group a different Turkic group and not Hungarian is because of Szekler privileges. I don't agree with that concept.

You also have no idea if you have any Turkic genetics or not because you have not taken a DNA test and ran it through various calculators. There is a reason why I am OK to post my results from all the companies I have used on TA because I have nothing to fear from myself. The results will either speak for my points or they will not. Most Hungarian elite class was of mixed groups anyway. Do you think that the Vata pagan Tengrist uprising that placed Andrew on the throne was not a popular uprising among the commoners who clamored for their return to Hungary and they took their offer?


I deleted my pro-turkic comment because i realized this is outdated. But everyone can see my other such comments from the last half years. Yes i changed my mind because of it, as i said million times i don't make identity question about it, i do care only the facts and science, i had no problem when an older source said conquerors were turkic, just like i have no problem with a new source which call them uralic. To be honest i don't identify myself with the conquerors.

You are allowed to change your mind, it's only more confusing if you accept that you have older posts out there why you would delete factual other academic sources that you posted at the same time. Instead of saying "I changed my mind" you just deleted everything old and immediately went into the new mode of discussion. It seems more like embarrassment and wanting to minimize appearing like you ever changed your thoughts.

You also don't need to care about the conquerors more than what is convenient because as you have said before on TA, you identitfy yourself primarily as a German.


I don't care what Dunai said, it's not secret that we don't like each other, and we had tons of debate in other things. There are things we agree on, just like i agree with you sometimes. In this topic Dunai is right about conquerors, but at same time he said tons of bullshit about his political ideas. I dont care, im not anyone's shied, i have an own opinion and world view what is different from yours and Dunai's opinion in general.
Btw i wanted to write a very rougly comment for Dunai yesterday, because i was sick of his another personal attacks on me with no reason, but after half hour thinking i didn't send it. He doesnt deserve such brutal humiliation.

The point was that it sounded like you were defending his perspective or excusing his willingness to ignore questions. It took him until page 11 to admit that his N-haplogroup claim from the first page was based on what is a game of telephone with someone who supposedly has a unique insider position for the Y-DNA results that are yet to be posted. Dunai comes as a lecturer, but is a hypocrite who has barely concealed disdain for his fellow Hungarians (as he eventually said in this thread) because of political reasons. I would respect him more if he just said that he finds being Hungarian embarrassing and shameful more often because then it would at least frame his constant attacks on our country as how he sees it in his heart.

Since we are talking about agreements between one another, and I am a fan of building bridges rather than burning them, what are things that you find we agree on? I would like to hear them. Also, do you agree that Szeklers are not a uniquely different Turkic group to Hungarians but rather preserved on average more Turkic genetics?

[Turul Karom]

You can remain calm, I won't "infest" your Nationalist circles with my "treacherous" Western morals :p

I would think that Turanism is quite internationalist and opening the door for diverse encounters in many ways, and therefore would not call myself as a pure "nationalist." However, as I believe in the sovereignty of nation states and their agency rather than in bureaucratic empires and anti-Hungarian NGO infiltration, I suppose that this is all it takes to be seen as a nationalist extremist.

The questions in post 114 will be waiting for you whenever you're ready.

[Chelubey]

good points and significant contribution in etymological terms. Urals region is inherently Turkic and the existence of Turkic toponyms and hydronyms as well as Turkic ethnonyms and genetics refer to this fact. 'Jaik' is 'Yayık' which means spread or wide in today's Turkish, the same word but the term Ural itself is Turkic as well since it has the root 'Ur' which denoted ancient Turks just like Tur and Tar, and that it is given to the river and mountains in that region shows that it originally belonged to a certain tribe resided there and named them after, etymology points to that. Just like the Sabirs named Siberia and then went southwards to Caspean steppes (where they were expelled by Avars and disappeared from history), but the remnants of Sabirs still live on there, called Chuvash

and Scythians, they were solely Turkic, esp the ruling class. Even only looking at the Turkic knots in Pazyryk carpets found in kurgans proves that, let alone the other items there and Turkic runes found in Essyk kurgan. Maybe the peripherals that they later on conquered spoke iranic in the south but I find it ridiculous to talk about the term iranic as it is very recent compared to vast Turkic history and persian language is a mixture made up of Turkic, arabic and indian languages. Unfortunately it will take some years, hundreds of academic articles and many unbiased interpretations for those members here to gain their courage and honour despite there is already clear evidence regarding these facts that they are not aware of
You can read it here.
http://www.wikiznanie.ru/wikipedia/index.php/%D0%90%D0%BC%D1%83-%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C%D1%8F


Amu or Amu-Darya (Ox among the writers of classical antiquity, Jaihun among the Arabs, Potsu or Fatsu among the Chinese) is the main river of Turkestan, flowing into the Aral. The upper reaches of A. have other names. The upper reaches of A. are usually considered to be the Aksu River, which flows out at 37 ° 15 'N. sh. and 89° E. from Lake Kulyi Pamir Khurd in Wakhan, at an altitude of about 4200 m. y. m. It flows first to the northeast and north, flows around the Pamirs-Big and Alichur-and then under the name Murghaba flows through Roshan, where at a distance of 420 km. from the source it receives the Pyanj, which is considered by others, especially by the natives, to be the main river. It flows out in the Greater Pamir, at an altitude of 4250 m "from Lake Kul-i-Pamir (Victoria), then, by connecting with another river, the southern Pyanj, flows north-north-west through Shugnan. The connected rivers already bear the name Amu, which flows northwest through Darvaz, where it receives Vanj-ab on the left

The Turkic people call the upper part of the Amu Darya river - Aksu (Uzbek dial. Oksu - white river) because of the rapid flow, the river foams and has a white tint.
The Iranian word "Vaksh" comes from the Turkic Aksu and has no Iranian etymology. However, Hippocrates names the largest river of Central Asia, associated by modern researchers with the Amu Darya), Ag (without the formant "su" - water,river ) , this is an additional argument in favor of the Turkic origin of the Greek name Oxus - 5th century BC

[Blondie]

Actually the r1a-z93 is highest among the afghans, tajiks and kyrgyz peoples, two of these are iranic speakers.

..speakers who have been highly influenced by Turkic genetics. [/QUOTE]

But this haplo is not even turkic but originated from Europe spreaded by indo iranics.


Apparently we do, because the largest % of Hungarian words are unknown origin, lol.

Doesn't matter, we know that the hungarian language is uralic, but we have no idea about the avar language, so you cannot classify it as turkic.


It has a large Turkic %, but regardless, if the genetics and culture are Altaic in a large part then you would think that this alone would be enough to call the people Uralo-Altaic.

But their most genetic were not altaic, because these markers have been found everywhere, among non turkics too, the r1a-z93 originated from europe, not from altay. And now in 21. century the hungarian genetic is mostly slavic just like the large part of hungarian culture, so Hungary is a slavic coutry now, do you agree?


Plus, other nations call us Uralo-Altaic without question in their classifications.

What kind of nations? Turkmens or khazaks? lol


I would be fine with accepting that classification, but the almost pathological fear from the western academia at such an idea reads more like someone who is afraid of a spider than someone who is intellectually honest in their disagreement.

The science is more free in West than in eastern countries, like in Turkey where if you are talking about such historical facts like amermenian genocide you will be prisoned.


I present it as a growing identity that will one day be a majority in an overt sense.

Gypsies will be the majority in Hungary and i doubt they will have turkic identity, neither hungarians.


The idea that Hungarian history should only begin in the last few hundred years is nonsense to me.

I have never said that.


This "hungarus vs. Conqueror" thing was never something that happened in Hungary.

It happened but hungarus = köznép in the hungarian society and this is a scientific term in the hungarian academy.


There is no book ever from the time talking about how the "hungarus" hated the conquerors or felt exploited by them before or after Christianity.

Then you should read the Gesta Hungarorum.


Most Hungarian elite class was of mixed groups anyway. Do you think that the Vata pagan Tengrist uprising that placed Andrew on the throne was not a popular uprising among the commoners who clamored for their return to Hungary and they took their offer?

The noble class were mixed of course, but they considered themselves as descedants of counquerors, they claimed it, not me.


You are allowed to change your mind, it's only more confusing if you accept that you have older posts out there why you would delete factual other academic sources that you posted at the same time. Instead of saying "I changed my mind" you just deleted everything old and immediately went into the new mode of discussion. It seems more like embarrassment and wanting to minimize appearing like you ever changed your thoughts.

No need to start personal attacks, my pro turkic comments from the last half years are still visible. This is the problem with you, you make identity question of it, and you don't even care the facts, but the conquerors must be turkic and nothing else, because this is your identity.


You also don't need to care about the conquerors more than what is convenient because as you have said before on TA, you identitfy yourself primarily as a German.

Yes my majority ancestry is german, my identity is danube swabian, but im partly hungarian too, and i grew up in Hungary, this is my home, so of course i do care about my hungarian side. The german prehistory is very clearly, there are no debates about it. The german subforum is also dead, only Morti, Teutone and me write comments there.


what are things that you find we agree on? I would like to hear them. Also, do you agree that Szeklers are not a uniquely different Turkic group to Hungarians but rather preserved on average more Turkic genetics?

For example we agree that the human rights are okay in Hungary, or the western media is always lying about this country, etc.
About székelys i accept their origin myth, that they are descedants of huns, if you see their paternal origin székelys have the highest haplogroup Q in Europe which is a pure original hunnic marker and huns were most likely old turkic. We know there were such hungarian tribes who had turkic origin (for example kabars), but hungarians as ethnicity are not and were not turkic in general.

[Blondie]

Btw Dunai as Julio at 15:43 lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8y5ixuLldE&list=LL&index=10

[Nanushka]

Ural is not originally turkic, it's more likely that the Ural name came from the mansi "urala" word which means mountain peak, and turks just adopted this name later when they migrated to Europe. Mansi are native in the Ural, turkics are not.

I dont take the opinions of a person coming from gut feelings on historical facts seriously. You dont even know Avars spoke Turkic language lol read Harmatta at least and keep quite

The term Ural belongs to Turkics noone can show me another nation that keep it alive in their society and culture and it represented only proto-Turks. Hanty and Mansi, both Ugrics, overall 30-40.000 in number cannot have influenced the toponym more than Turkics who were natives, ruled the area for centuries and left their heritage there with ethnic Turkic names and Ugors are our relatives too, that is coming fast

[Token]

good points and significant contribution in etymological terms. Urals region is inherently Turkic and the existence of Turkic toponyms and hydronyms as well as Turkic ethnonyms and genetics refer to this fact. 'Jaik' is 'Yayık' which means spread or wide in today's Turkish, the same word but the term Ural itself is Turkic as well since it has the root 'Ur' which denoted ancient Turks just like Tur and Tar, and that it is given to the river and mountains in that region shows that it originally belonged to a certain tribe resided there and named them after, etymology points to that. Just like the Sabirs named Siberia and then went southwards to Caspean steppes (where they were expelled by Avars and disappeared from history), but the remnants of Sabirs still live on there, called Chuvash

and Scythians, they were solely Turkic, esp the ruling class. Even only looking at the Turkic knots in Pazyryk carpets found in kurgans proves that, let alone the other items there and Turkic runes found in Essyk kurgan. Maybe the peripherals that they later on conquered spoke iranic in the south but I find it ridiculous to talk about the term iranic as it is very recent compared to vast Turkic history and persian language is a mixture made up of Turkic, arabic and indian languages. Unfortunately it will take some years, hundreds of academic articles and many unbiased interpretations for those members here to gain their courage and honour despite there is already clear evidence regarding these facts that they are not aware of

Keep dreaming, Mongolian.

[Turul Karom]

But this haplo is not even turkic but originated from Europe spreaded by indo iranics.

Ok, so what is a Turkic haplo to you? Just Q? C? It seems like what you are willing to accept as Turkic is unreasonably narrow considering that from the start, Turkic people were heterogeneous tribes and not an ethnostate. Considering the Eurasian steppes and the quick rise and fall of nomadic empires, it is no surprise that there would be so much variety.


Doesn't matter, we know that the hungarian language is uralic, but we have no idea about the avar language, so you cannot classify it as turkic.

I am not trying to do it myself. I am saying that academics are the ones who are doing that; most see Avars as a Turkic people. Hence the irony at them being majority N (that we currently have access to) while Hungarian conquerors who some academics try to make more associated as Khanty/Mansi related are predominantly R1.


But their most genetic were not altaic, because these markers have been found everywhere, among non turkics too, the r1a-z93 originated from europe, not from altay. And now in 21. century the hungarian genetic is mostly slavic just like the large part of hungarian culture, so Hungary is a slavic coutry now, do you agree?

This is because of how a nomadic empire spreads. It doesn't exactly respect or keep borders. R1a-Z93 is found in many places like other haplos. Your Slavic argument is not hard to understand, but I don't agree. All that matters is origin and continuity, not overall % total. Turkics were never even 100% East Asian, not even close, and I find the idea that this somehow represents elements of "Turkicness" as the only possible modern element as not giving enough credit to the western Eurasian admixture Hungarians had during the conquering era (or other Turkics, say during the Bilge Khagan era).

There are some Africans in the West who are 50% European but still got enough genetics to look more African than European via chance. Are their African ancestors Germanic now? No. They are still part of each, but their ancestors were different. Just like modern Hungarians vs. old Hungarians. Same concept. The issue I have is that there are those who feel so detached from the founding populations that they wish to have nothing to do with them (although with a weirdly hostile behavior) that seems like more desperation to not be seen as non-western rather than apathy.


What kind of nations? Turkmens or khazaks? lol

I see it mostly from Turkey, but I have seen it in most nations. Of course, I know you are aware that this is what the Turkic Council calls us as well.


Gypsies will be the majority in Hungary and i doubt they will have turkic identity, neither hungarians.

I disagree, and I know we will not see eye-to-eye on this future about demographics. If you are so worried about demographics, then make that a point of something to address in your life. What matters most is what the Hungarian nation (which is a people, not a magical border) does.


I have never said that.

It wasn't an accusation.


It happened but hungarus = köznép in the hungarian society and this is a scientific term in the hungarian academy.

Then you should read the Gesta Hungarorum.

It is no different than the feudalism of the Lords vs. the pedantry. You are framing it in a racial light. My counter is that the Vata Tengrist uprising is a great example of a successful grass-roots Hungarian effort to restore the "Conqueror elite" to prominence in Hungary. This could not have happened if they preferred a European master to the Conqueror dynasty since the violence was not simply religiously based but mostly driven by anti-foreign sentiment.


The noble class were mixed of course, but they considered themselves as descedants of counquerors, they claimed it, not me.

I don't trust the Gesta 100%. It has political motivations. I am sure some of it is true, but there is plenty that can be too politically motivated at the time. I prefer to look to modern sciences, archaeology, and genetics. Stories can also be too corrupted over time.


No need to start personal attacks, my pro turkic comments from the last half years are still visible. This is the problem with you, you make identity question of it, and you don't even care the facts, but the conquerors must be turkic and nothing else, because this is your identity.

There was no personal attack. It was an observation about how it appears to me (your behavior of deleting the posts). Also, it is tiresome when you even respond to posts of mine that mention the Hungarian conquerors can be classified as Uralo-Altaic and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in the same breath you will claim that I think the conquerors must be 100% pure-pure Turkic (which cannot even be defined by either of us in an academic way).


Yes my majority ancestry is german, my identity is danube swabian, but im partly hungarian too, and i grew up in Hungary, this is my home, so of course i do care about my hungarian side. The german prehistory is very clearly, there are no debates about it. The german subforum is also dead, only Morti, Teutone and me write comments there.

Most of the subforums are dead, unfortunately. I am aware you have some Hungarian ancestry, hence why I think it would be interesting for you to actually take a DNA test with some companies and post the results.

Teutone has been very friendly with me, and I appreciate some of his insight on certain topics.


For example we agree that the human rights are okay in Hungary, or the western media is always lying about this country, etc.
About székelys i accept their origin myth, that they are descedants of huns, if you see their paternal origin székelys have the highest haplogroup Q in Europe which is a pure original hunnic marker and huns were most likely old turkic. We know there were such hungarian tribes who had turkic origin (for example kabars), but hungarians as ethnicity are not and were not turkic in general.

Hungary is frequently lied about in the West, true. Though in another thread there seems to be an interesting documentary that is pro-Hungary in this sense.

We don't know what haplogroup Attila or his children would have been, therefore I don't think one can say for sure what a "pure original Hunnic marker" is. Also, I don't think that my sub-group is more Hunnic than the Conquering Hungarians. I think that this divide comes from the idea that Hungarians must be Ugric-oriented and therefore the Szeklers must be Turkic-oriented based on the runes, genetics, and legends. We have never thought of ourselves as different from other Hungarians, as a separate nation from other Hungarians, but as a type of "durable Hungarian" who kept the old ways more from the steppe times. I don't think it is productive or helpful to think of Szeklers as Turkic but Hungarians are not.

This is a point I would like to make to you, since you have spoken with me for this long. Surely you need to appreciate my good faith, as if Szeklers are a Turkic people, and if I am so interesting in identifying as one, then I can just say that I am Szekler alone. Right? It would be an easy excuse; you have seen my yourDNAportal results that show my 50% Szekler ancestry, and I have always been open about my DNA results across all tests I have taken through them and more. So why do I not do this? Because I don't believe that Szeklers are a different Turkic group. I don't think the evidence is good enough. I think that, at the "strangest" we could be from one another, that Hungarians are Hunnic from tribes that joined pre-blood oath from Central-East Asia, and Szeklers are additionally Hunnic from extra European holdout descendants of Huns. That is perhaps why Szeklers have more Turkic genetics on average (besides simply dying less in the Transylvania region). That does not mean that Szeklers are different Huns or a different tribe, but that the Conquering Hungarians set the Szeklers in Transylvania (and in other areas of Hungary that is rarely talked about) and we mixed together more over time. The language similarities attests to this common origin truth. Róna-Tas explained this point beautifully. While it doesn't eliminate the possibility, the only real language challenge is the name.

Do you believe specifically that we are Turkic in a way that other Hungarians are not based on origin?

[Blondie]

I dont take the opinions of a person coming from gut feelings on historical facts seriously. You dont even know Avars spoke Turkic language lol read Harmatta at least and keep quite

Harmatta never claimed that avars were 100% turkic speakers, read his original source if you know hungarian:
http://regi.smmi.hu/publikaciok/regeszet/1996/1996_harmatta.pdf


The term Ural belongs to Turkics noone can show me another nation that keep it alive in their society and culture and it represented only proto-Turks. Hanty and Mansi, both Ugrics, overall 30-40.000 in number cannot have influenced the toponym more than Turkics who were natives, ruled the area for centuries and left their heritage there with ethnic Turkic names and Ugors are our relatives too, that is coming fast

Ural not belongs to turkics because they were just foreign invaders here. Proto turkics lived in altay not in Ural.


Keep dreaming, Mongolian.

Actually she is half arabic (middle eastern).

[Blondie]

Ok, so what is a Turkic haplo to you? Just Q? C? It seems like what you are willing to accept as Turkic is unreasonably narrow considering that from the start, Turkic people were heterogeneous tribes and not an ethnostate. Considering the Eurasian steppes and the quick rise and fall of nomadic empires, it is no surprise that there would be so much variety.

Q is an original altaic marker, but proto-turkics had other haplogroups like C, R1, or N1, but doesn't matter we are talking about N1 and R1 haplo among pre-magyars. In the case of magyars why we should consider the siberian N1 marker as non siberian turkic if we can consider it siberian ugric? Why? Or why we should consider the R1 haplo as turkic if proto-ugrics also had this haplo? Its like if you would find a cup of tea in your mom's kitchen and you would think she ordered it from Romania because there are tea in Romania too, no, it makes no sense. The most realistic version is this tea was made by your mom in the kitchen 10 minutes ago. Why should we prefer a foreing influence instead of local answer?


I am not trying to do it myself. I am saying that academics are the ones who are doing that; most see Avars as a Turkic people.

I ask you again, how can you classify an ethnicity linguistically if you don't know their language? Just because some profs thinks the avars were most likely turkics it doesn't mean it's 100% sure or something, because we don't know their language.


Just like modern Hungarians vs. old Hungarians. Same concept. The issue I have is that there are those who feel so detached from the founding populations that they wish to have nothing to do with them (although with a weirdly hostile behavior) that seems like more desperation to not be seen as non-western rather than apathy.

No, most hungarians do care about the conquerors, but they don't make about it a turkic identity quoestion like you do.


I see it mostly from Turkey, but I have seen it in most nations. Of course, I know you are aware that this is what the Turkic Council calls us as well.

Okay, Hungary is not full member of Turkic Council just an observer member, and Hungary will leave it for sure if Orbán goes, simple because modern hungarians have nothing to do with them.
And it's a very nice thing if turks like hungarians, but hungarians don't care about it in general, neither West Europe btw. Hungarians compare themselves to austrians (or other central euros), not only because the historical relations, but Austria is the idol of most hungarians economically, that we must reach their economic level, this rivalization is also existed in the Monarchy.


I disagree, and I know we will not see eye-to-eye on this future about demographics.

Doesn't matter your opinion in this question, Hungary will be gypsie majority just like other neighbor countries if the government won't do anything.


It is no different than the feudalism of the Lords vs. the pedantry. You are framing it in a racial light.

Wrong, the elite vs commoners identity existed before the feudal hungarian state. The hungarian nobility always claimed that they are descedants of counquerors, but commoners (hungarus) are not, so they don't belong to the hungarian nation. It was the thinking in medieval Hungary and later until the national awakening. And nobody talked about any racial thing.


It was an observation about how it appears to me (your behavior of deleting the posts). Also, it is tiresome when you even respond to posts of mine that mention the Hungarian conquerors can be classified as Uralo-Altaic and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in the same breath you will claim that I think the conquerors must be 100% pure-pure Turkic (which cannot even be defined by either of us in an academic way).

Man... i deleted only 2 post, and now you present me like i always do it, bullshit. I have already said why i deleted it, i realized this is obsoleted, thats all. It's not my problem if you don't understand it.


Most of the subforums are dead, unfortunately. I am aware you have some Hungarian ancestry, hence why I think it would be interesting for you to actually take a DNA test with some companies and post the results.

Yes i know in TA the genetic test is like Bible, but i said million times why i don't do genetic test. First of all i don't trust in these companies who store you personal datas, secondly the language, culture and identity does matter not this cheap genetic test what is basically just playing with numbers, i have seen such genetic map which claimed such nonsense things like hungarians are closer to swedes than finns, or you will get different results almost in every test, sorry i can't take it seriously.


We don't know what haplogroup Attila or his children would have been, therefore I don't think one can say for sure what a "pure original Hunnic marker" is. Also, I don't think that my sub-group is more Hunnic than the Conquering Hungarians. I think that this divide comes from the idea that Hungarians must be Ugric-oriented and therefore the Szeklers must be Turkic-oriented based on the runes, genetics, and legends. We have never thought of ourselves as different from other Hungarians, as a separate nation from other Hungarians, but as a type of "durable Hungarian" who kept the old ways more from the steppe times. I don't think it is productive or helpful to think of Szeklers as Turkic but Hungarians are not.

Attila's haplo is irrelevant, it can be bantu-negro too does not matter, because he was hun and he will always be hun regardless of his paternal origin. And of course the hungarian academy is ugric oriented because the hungarian language is ugric, that's why. Its not a difficult thing, but i have never seen any hungarian prof who denied the significant old turkic influence. Neither me, nor Dunai don't deny that.


if Szeklers are a Turkic people, and if I am so interesting in identifying as one, then I can just say that I am Szekler alone.

No, székelys are not turkic peoples, they are hungarians, but an unique hungarian subgroup with most likely old turkic origin. Btw if you really interested the origin of székelys you should buy the rubicon "A székelység története" historical magazin, 20 page only about it, they analysed every theory. Very interesting.

https://marvin.bline.hu/product_images/437/0129003885480P.JPG

In my opinion, székelys are descedants of huns, and they lived in Transylvania since the huns, and later they adopted the hungarian language somehow. Of course this is just my subjective opinion.

[Chelubey]

I dont take the opinions of a person coming from gut feelings on historical facts seriously. You dont even know Avars spoke Turkic language lol read Harmatta at least and keep quite

The term Ural belongs to Turkics noone can show me another nation that keep it alive in their society and culture and it represented only proto-Turks. Hanty and Mansi, both Ugrics, overall 30-40.000 in number cannot have influenced the toponym more than Turkics who were natives, ruled the area for centuries and left their heritage there with ethnic Turkic names and Ugors are our relatives too, that is coming fast

In fact, Ural are full of Ugric toponyms / hydronyms, even in the south. They are adjacent to the Turkic one. The most interesting thing is that there are many non-Turkic toponyms / hydronyms in Altai and the word Altai itself is probably not of Turkic origin, in contrast from Kazakhstan, where there are practically only Turkic and Mongolian toponyms

[Nanushka]

Keep dreaming, Mongolian.

Mongolian is better than being dumbass and illiterate like you and you think you are aryan in your dreams? Ural is Turkic and it is in academia already, some people are not just gossiping and masturbating over facts like you do here




Actually she is half arabic (middle eastern).

says the attention freak of TA who has many socks ahaha this is all you can do, spreading lies about people according to your gut feelings wikipedia troll. I have shared my DNA results and none of them had none ME in the least and I have even many red hair in my family but I am sure you have a lot of gypsy in yours its apparent from the blonde avatar pictures you keep sharing so desperately lolol. All you write is always shit and have no academic base and others are applausing this autism since you are anti-Turk and entertaining them monkeying around

[Blondie]

Mongolian is better than being dumbass and illiterate like you and you think you are aryan in your dreams? Ural is Turkic and it is in academia already, some people are not just gossiping and masturbating over facts like you do here



says the attention freak of TA who has many socks ahaha this is all you can do, spreading lies about people according to your gut feelings wikipedia troll. I have shared my DNA results and none of them had none ME in the least and I have even many red hair in my family but I am sure you have a lot of gypsy in yours its apparent from the blonde avatar pictures you keep sharing so desperately lolol. All you write is always shit and have no academic base and others are applausing this autism since you are anti-Turk and entertaining them monkeying around

Ural has never been turkic, and you have no any real argument just personal attacks. Why am i attention freak? I have never maked any thread about me, i have no any sock, i posted the original Harmata source from the academy to refute you.

[Nanushka]

Ural has never been turkic, and you have no any real argument just personal attacks. Why am i attention freak? I have never maked any thread about me, i have no any sock, i posted the original Harmata source from the academy to refute you.

You havent refuted anything and you never rely on academia. I have shared many scientific arguments, mostly with evidence, but you are not even interested like many other trolls here. If I made a personal attack on you its because of your own personal attack on me in the first place, like the one above, what the hell is it, a scientific argument lol it is bad-faith. Know your place and dont ever quote me again, I will not either

[Blondie]

You havent refuted anything and you never rely on academia. I have shared many scientific arguments, mostly with evidence, but you are not even interested like many other trolls here. If I made a personal attack on you its because of your nasty personal attack on me in the first place, like the one I quoted above, what the hell is it, a scientific argument lol it is bad-faith. Know your place and dont ever quote me again, I will not either

What is this know your place? :D You are on european forum although you are not even european, and you are on hungarian thread but you are not even hungarian... I dont care what are you doing, if you continue these personal attacks and lyings i will just report you to Loki and you will be banned thats all. Kivan and Itilvolga was right about you, they said everything about your sneakly behaviour. These guys like you is the reason why turks have mostly negative reputation.
You didn't post anything, firstly you said Ural has turkic name, i posted a native ugric name "urala", after that you quoted Harmata, i posted the original source not even from wikipedia what refuted you :rotfl:

[Turul Karom]

Q is an original altaic marker, but proto-turkics had other haplogroups like C, R1, or N1, but doesn't matter we are talking about N1 and R1 haplo among pre-magyars. In the case of magyars why we should consider the siberian N1 marker as non siberian turkic if we can consider it siberian ugric? Why? Or why we should consider the R1 haplo as turkic if proto-ugrics also had this haplo? Its like if you would find a cup of tea in your mom's kitchen and you would think she ordered it from Romania because there are tea in Romania too, no, it makes no sense. The most realistic version is this tea was made by your mom in the kitchen 10 minutes ago. Why should we prefer a foreing influence instead of local answer?

I feel like this is getting into the territory again of "what is a proto-ugric/proto-turkic?" The problem is that several hundred or a few thousand years, and these people were totally different already from one another. For example, the Conquering Hungarians were very different from the proto-Ugrics/Turkics just like modern Hungarians are genetically different from the conqueror-era graves. None of these people are going to be identical to their ancestors from 500, 1000, etc years ago. Especially on the steppes.

I understand your tea example, but I feel like this tea example would be better for explaining the philosophy of haplogroup and admixture diversity while still showing common origin in my mind:

There is a tin of tea A. Over time, tea A is used and supplemented in the same container with tea B. Then tea C is added once that blend of A and B gets smaller. Over time, tea A is replaced to the point where it is now a minority of the blend. However, every time you make the tea, you can always taste the subtle flavors of tea A. Would you not say that the tea is therefore a "tea A blend?" I would, and most people would imo. The only time that you can effectively call into question if that is true is if the old blend is removed entirely to the point where there is no more tea A in the tin.


I ask you again, how can you classify an ethnicity linguistically if you don't know their language? Just because some profs thinks the avars were most likely turkics it doesn't mean it's 100% sure or something, because we don't know their language.

Don't ask me. Ask the academics that all say it. You know that even a casual search will say Avars were Turkic.


No, most hungarians do care about the conquerors, but they don't make about it a turkic identity quoestion like you do.

More than you think. Also, I'm more interested on the commonality of the steppe legacy shared today and what we can do with it in the future. That is showing promise as well. Conqerors having Hunnic admix should be the highlight of the conversation. This has been asserted by academics in a few studies now, but it seems like people don't know quite how to frame a response to it. It is almost an eerie quiet..


Okay, Hungary is not full member of Turkic Council just an observer member, and Hungary will leave it for sure if Orbán goes, simple because modern hungarians have nothing to do with them.

Full vs. Observer status had nothing to do with my point. Nothing at all, and you know it. The point was that the Turkic Council members say we are Uralo-Altaic, and you asked for countries, so I gave them to you. If Hungary left, they would still say the same thing, because the member states said it even before the Turkic Council was a thing. Your tangent about future membership is irrelevant to your original question since the member states will still call us Uralo-Altaic, which is a much fairer assessment than Finno-Ugric.


And it's a very nice thing if turks like hungarians, but hungarians don't care about it in general, neither West Europe btw. Hungarians compare themselves to austrians (or other central euros), not only because the historical relations, but Austria is the idol of most hungarians economically, that we must reach their economic level, this rivalization is also existed in the Monarchy.

I am not interested in economic things on the meta sense. There are things more important than money to me. I take care of my fiances just fine. Rivalry with Austria is cringe in the 21st century. The only reason Austria is doing better is because it was on the "free" side of the Iron Curtain.


Doesn't matter your opinion in this question, Hungary will be gypsie majority just like other neighbor countries if the government won't do anything.

You seem to think that I am somehow spooked by these numbers. What matters if the Hungarians will do something about it. Are you going to do something about it to help us, or are you going to just be sad that Roma are having kids and Hungarians aren't? If kids matter to people, then they have them, if not, they won't. Outside of ignorant mistake pregnancies or some form of rape, children are born when two people want them. A nation that wants no kids wants no place in the future. Thankfully, there will always be Hungarians interested in having a family, and not for stupid demographic reasons but because a family makes them whole. If you cannot see this, then maybe you either need time to think about things outside of the material, or maybe you don't want a kid. I don't know. It's all your choice.


Wrong, the elite vs commoners identity existed before the feudal hungarian state. The hungarian nobility always claimed that they are descedants of counquerors, but commoners (hungarus) are not, so they don't belong to the hungarian nation. It was the thinking in medieval Hungary and later until the national awakening. And nobody talked about any racial thing.

You are missing the point. I asked you, during the Vata Tengrist Pagan uprising, the "commoners" could have any king. Yet, they restored the founding dynasty to the throne. Why? Because they wanted a Hungarian ruler, not a foreign one. It is your words that make it sound more of a racial difference thing (commoners being different and therefore tension between them and conquerors).


Man... i deleted only 2 post, and now you present me like i always do it, bullshit. I have already said why i deleted it, i realized this is obsoleted, thats all. It's not my problem if you don't understand it.

Never said that you "always" do it. It was about this thread. Don't feel so attacked by it. It isn't like it matters in the long-term on TA. The only reason I type a conversation so many pages back is to do just that: have a conversation. I don't think that too many people will even make it this far in the thread.


Yes i know in TA the genetic test is like Bible, but i said million times why i don't do genetic test. First of all i don't trust in these companies who store you personal datas, secondly the language, culture and identity does matter not this cheap genetic test what is basically just playing with numbers, i have seen such genetic map which claimed such nonsense things like hungarians are closer to swedes than finns, or you will get different results almost in every test, sorry i can't take it seriously.

Then why trust genetic tests at all? Why not get your genome fully sequenced and keep that DNA data? That is the most scientific data you can get. I agree that some companies aren't as good as others regarding their quality, but there is no way that on one hand you use genetic data in your arguments then say that you don't take it seriously at all. Or else why are you even here?


Attila's haplo is irrelevant, it can be bantu-negro too does not matter, because he was hun and he will always be hun regardless of his paternal origin. And of course the hungarian academy is ugric oriented because the hungarian language is ugric, that's why. Its not a difficult thing, but i have never seen any hungarian prof who denied the significant old turkic influence. Neither me, nor Dunai don't deny that.

You are so close to understanding the perspective I am attempting to share about the Conquering Hungarians with that sentence. R1, N, etc, should not even matter that much in the end, but it does when people say nonsensical claims like Dunai stating because there is so much N that therefore Hungarians have a close connection with Mansi origins while R1 is dominant. The Conquerors are not Mansi, or Oghuz, or Kabar, etc. They are a unique blend that makes the Hungarians.

Dunai certainly did make such anti-Turkic claims, and many other anti-Turan TA posters have in the past on the forum. They will always say, "Hungarians had nothing to do with Turks" but now those voices have gotten much more quiet, and for good reason.


No, székelys are not turkic peoples, they are hungarians, but an unique hungarian subgroup with most likely old turkic origin. Btw if you really interested the origin of székelys you should buy the rubicon "A székelység története" historical magazin, 20 page only about it, they analysed every theory. Very interesting.

It is a very interesting topic. I have multiple books about the subject from the 1990s to today and watch the evolution of the theories. I have a small collection on my bookshelf of my favorites. Some say we have a Turkic origin, some say we have a resettled Hungarian origin. I have stated my opinion here about my own thoughts.

I want you to clarify this:

No, székelys are not turkic peoples, they are hungarians, but an unique hungarian subgroup with most likely old turkic origin.

So are you saying that you think the origins are different from the Hungarians via the European Hunnic origin, and that makes the subgroup Turkic? Also, it seems contradictory that if you say a group is "most likely old Turkic origin" but then say that they "are not a Turkic peoples." You will need to clarify this.


In my opinion, székelys are descedants of huns, and they lived in Transylvania since the huns, and later they adopted the hungarian language somehow. Of course this is just my subjective opinion.

Does this mean that you don't think that the Huns of Europe spoke Hungarian if my subgroup picked up Hungarian at some point? Because if Szeklers are Huns, and are not a part of the conquest from Asia but adopted the Hungarian language, then there must have been a different language; I would assume you would think it is Turkic? One of my favorite books is from Róna-Tas regarding Hungarian history during the conquest up to the establishment of the kingdom in 1000. In this, he says that while the name "Székely" is unique, he cannot state that the name alone is enough to differentiate from the Hungarians as a whole, and that settling on the frontier is not a good enough example, either. He says that a different origin is possible, but he believes that current evidence is inconclusive, and linguistically there are no differences in Szekler-Hungarian speech.

Of course everything is your subjective opinion. It's what makes talking fun.

[Nanushka]

What is this know your place? :D You are on european forum although you are not even european, and you are on hungarian thread but you are not even hungarian... I dont care what are you doing, if you continue these personal attacks and lyings i will just report you to Loki and you will be banned thats all. Kivan and Itilvolga was right about you, they said everything about your sneakly behaviour. These guys like you is the reason why turks have mostly negative reputation.
You didn't post anything, firstly you said Ural has turkic name, i posted a native ugric name "urala", after that you quoted Harmata, i posted the original source not even from wikipedia what refuted you :rotfl:

lol troll lets inform Loki and see his decision ok? You are the nasty one who attacked on me without any evidence and what I wrote was just an innocent reply :) You surely love Turkish losers like Kivan and İtilvolga bc they lick the boots of 'europeans' like you (lol) and I would never do that. I am a Eurasian and I have every right to be here since my heritage is all around Europe! I very proud of my ancestors and who I am, and I only talk with latest scientific findings and evidence,whatever I write here is supported by academia but you dont want to hear, then its your prb. I am only interested in truth and you can keep monkeying around just keep away from my posts

[Blondie]

lol troll lets inform Loki and see his decision ok? You are the nasty one who attacked on me without any evidence and what I wrote was just an innocent reply :) You surely love Turkish losers like Kivan and İtilvolga bc they lick the boots of 'europeans' like you (lol) and I would never do that. I am a Eurasian and I have every right to be here since my heritage is all around Europe! I very proud of my ancestors and who I am, and I only talk with latest scientific findings and evidence,whatever I write here is supported by academia but you dont want to hear, then its your prb. I am only interested in truth and you can keep monkeying around just keep away from my posts

Kivan and Itilvolga were two decent member, and not even bootlickers, but i don't care this personal argument, let's talk about these "facts". Can you post any non turkic source which proves what you claims?

[Hektor12]

in Turkey where if you are talking about such historical facts like amermenian genocide you will be prisoned.

The prosecutor's office decided that there is no basis for prosecution regarding the three members of the İHD, who were detained for carrying banners mentioning the Armenian Genocide in the press release, which was not authorized on April 24. In its decision, the Prosecutor's Office drew attention to the fact that the word "genocide" should be evaluated within the scope of freedom of thought.
>http://www.agos.com.tr/tr/yazi/20712/savcilik-soykirim-demek-suc-degil
>Newspaper belongs to armenian minority.


The german subforum is also dead, only Morti, Teutone and me write comments there.Representing future of Germany= a Serbo-Gypsy neonazi, a religious black hole and hopeless youth.


These guys like you is the reason why turks have mostly negative reputation.This person is the most mysterious person in this forum and i still dont know why shes here, whats her purpose and where she wants to reach...

[bained]

Can someone post coordinates of K2-52 or closest distance? I cant seem to find t.

[Blondie]

I feel like this is getting into the territory again of "what is a proto-ugric/proto-turkic?" The problem is that several hundred or a few thousand years, and these people were totally different already from one another. For example, the Conquering Hungarians were very different from the proto-Ugrics/Turkics just like modern Hungarians are genetically different from the conqueror-era graves. None of these people are going to be identical to their ancestors from 500, 1000, etc years ago. Especially on the steppes.

I understand your tea example, but I feel like this tea example would be better for explaining the philosophy of haplogroup and admixture diversity while still showing common origin in my mind:

There is a tin of tea A. Over time, tea A is used and supplemented in the same container with tea B. Then tea C is added once that blend of A and B gets smaller. Over time, tea A is replaced to the point where it is now a minority of the blend. However, every time you make the tea, you can always taste the subtle flavors of tea A. Would you not say that the tea is therefore a "tea A blend?" I would, and most people would imo. The only time that you can effectively call into question if that is true is if the old blend is removed entirely to the point where there is no more tea A in the tin.

Too much blah blah, and you still didn't answer that if the hungarian language is ugric then why we should suppose a foreign genetic influence instead of local when these paternal origins have been found among the pre-ugrics too. It makes absolutely no sense. And yes the Academy is ugric oriented because the hungarian language is ugric.


Don't ask me. Ask the academics that all say it. You know that even a casual search will say Avars were Turkic.

I love your style when the Academy proves you that you love the Academy and if they don't (like in the case of pre magyars) you ignore them :D But nope, only the turkic academy claims that avars were turkic without any linguistic proof. But this is a source from the Academy what you like so much:


The language of Avars is practically unknown; but educated guesses tell that it may have been Old Turkish, or something between Turkish and Mongolian
http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/AVARS.htm

So avars cannot be classified, these are just speculations.


The point was that the Turkic Council members say we are Uralo-Altaic, and you asked for countries, so I gave them to you. If Hungary left, they would still say the same thing, because the member states said it even before the Turkic Council was a thing. Your tangent about future membership is irrelevant to your original question since the member states will still call us Uralo-Altaic, which is a much fairer assessment than Finno-Ugric.

I dont care what politicians says, and i dont care the opinion of dictatorships where the scientific life is not even free. Like it or not the hungarian language is finno-ugric, uralic and not altaic, neither partly.


I am not interested in economic things on the meta sense. There are things more important than money to me. I take care of my fiances just fine. Rivalry with Austria is cringe in the 21st century. The only reason Austria is doing better is because it was on the "free" side of the Iron Curtain.

I have talked about hungarians in general not about you, and hungarians compare themselves to austrians or other central euros, not to turkmens or kazakhs.


You are missing the point. I asked you, during the Vata Tengrist Pagan uprising, the "commoners" could have any king. Yet, they restored the founding dynasty to the throne. Why? Because they wanted a Hungarian ruler, not a foreign one.

What do you want with it? The commoners were not even foreigners, of course they wanted the Árpád dynasty.


Then why trust genetic tests at all? Why not get your genome fully sequenced and keep that DNA data? That is the most scientific data you can get. I agree that some companies aren't as good as others regarding their quality, but there is no way that on one hand you use genetic data in your arguments then say that you don't take it seriously at all. Or else why are you even here?

The case of pre magyars are totally different, and these analyses are far more thorough than these cheap tests from the street.


You are so close to understanding the perspective I am attempting to share about the Conquering Hungarians with that sentence. R1, N, etc, should not even matter that much in the end, but it does when people say nonsensical claims like Dunai stating because there is so much N that therefore Hungarians have a close connection with Mansi origins while R1 is dominant. The Conquerors are not Mansi, or Oghuz, or Kabar, etc. They are a unique blend that makes the Hungarians.

The genetic relations does matter if we want to prove that premagyars connected to the uralic peoples. Attila was just one person, he doesnt represent all hun. And according to these sources what Dunai also posted these tests confirms their uralic origin.


Dunai certainly did make such anti-Turkic claims, and many other anti-Turan TA posters have in the past on the forum. They will always say, "Hungarians had nothing to do with Turks" but now those voices have gotten much more quiet, and for good reason.

The real reason is others have no time to discuss with such fanatics like you especially many hours per day, because it makes no sense. You are a fanatic beliver, and doesnt matter what others or the hungarian Academy says, your opinion will never change, because you make identity question about it. This is the real reason. The academy and the scientific world consider hungarians as uralic, and you personal opinion doesnt matter.

[Blondie]

Representing future of Germany= a Serbo-Gypsy neonazi, a religious black hole and hopeless youth.

Germany has no future, neither Hungary or others. The only white countries will be Poland, Ukraine and Belarus. Im not hopeless, i have tons of goal in my life what i want to reach.

[Chelubey]

Yet the conqueror class was bilingual with Y-DNA of R1a, not N. This is somehow going to be a goal scored then for a non-Turkic part of the core? The problem is that N is something that was argued by Dunai as evidence for a Mansi core, yet the Turkic group Avars are mostly N. Therefore, Avar=Mansi? I am showing him the hypocrisy of his own logic.

The Uralic people's genesis is not as clear as many people think. Previously, the Proto-Uralic people were associated with pit-comb ceramics, and this was based, among other things, on the anthropological factor:there were the origins of the Lapponoid anthropological type, which is common among Western Uralic people.
Here is a description of the anthropological type of people of the Lyalovo culture (part of pit-comb culture ,4th thousand BC, Moscow region).
link (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1 %80%D0%B0)

Anthropological appearance is usually characterized as a mixed Mongoloid-Caucasoid and even Laponoid.
Hg N was not found in the pit-comb culture, but a now extinct subclade of the haplogroup R1a was found. Perhaps this was the proto-Uralic marker. But if the hg N is found in the pit-comb culuture, then it will be possible to say with greater certainty that the hg N is a proto-Uralic marker. Now it is believed that the N hg -Uralic people arrived in Europe in 2-1 thousand BC. But then it turns out that the Mongoloid (Lappanoid) element in the Western Uralic people is not from proto- Uralic people, but from the Indo-European R1a.

[Turul Karom]

Too much blah blah, and you still didn't answer that if the hungarian language is ugric then why we should suppose a foreign genetic influence instead of local when these paternal origins have been found among the pre-ugrics too. It makes absolutely no sense. And yes the Academy is ugric oriented because the hungarian language is ugric.

Then just ignore my point. I answered you, and you don't get it, so the point is closed. Oh well.


I love your style when the Academy proves you that you love the Academy and if they don't (like in the case of pre magyars) you ignore them :D But nope, only the turkic academy claims that avars were turkic without any linguistic proof. But this is a source from the Academy what you like so much:

http://www.rmki.kfki.hu/~lukacs/AVARS.htm

So avars cannot be classified, these are just speculations.

You are the person who appeals to the academy. Hence the irony. The idea that many in academia say Avars are Turkic, but the majority of haplos in graves are N, while saying N indicates Uralic ancestry, while the Conqueror graves are R1, is silly. That is the entire point behind this. You are straying from the points being made by Dunai on page one and then admitted ten pages later that he was not even directly quoting because of his "inside source."


I dont care what politicians says, and i dont care the opinion of dictatorships where the scientific life is not even free. Like it or not the hungarian language is finno-ugric, uralic and not altaic, neither partly.

Nice. So I guess no matter the country, if it ever had autocratic control over the people, then that means the science is tainted. I guess that means that all work done under the Hapsburgs or by the Nazis were all garbage, too. What a silly claim. Like it or not, Turkic brothers see us as such, and do not abandon us. You don't need to care; they are working towards our camaraderie and brotherhood every day. You will not stop it by plugging your ears.


I have talked about hungarians in general not about you, and hungarians compare themselves to austrians or other central euros, not to turkmens or kazakhs.

I am talking about the philosophy about valuing something more than that of your neighbor. More than material goods. If you can't appreciate that, then too bad.

What do you want with it? The commoners were not even foreigners, of course they wanted the Árpád dynasty.


The case of pre magyars are totally different, and these analyses are far more thorough than these cheap tests from the street.

Hah, you think I am an advocate for anything less than a full genome sequence for those that can get it? The prices lower all the time, too. The idea that the tests are somehow impossible to obtain is laughable. My Szekler 50% was from my WGS, and the Turkic results (Uyghur, Kyrgyz, Chuvash, Turk Anatolia, Tatar, etc) were from the same. If you can't understand the value of even the more basic tests for haplos and other raw data (looking at individual SNPs, which has nothing to do with a company's ethnic calculator) then you are FAR behind on the times.


The genetic relations does matter if we want to prove that premagyars connected to the uralic peoples. Attila was just one person, he doesnt represent all hun. And according to these sources what Dunai also posted these tests confirms their uralic origin.

"Their" who? Because they are a mix. Page two of this thread has the map of pre-Hungarian contributions.


The real reason is others have no time to discuss with such fanatics like you especially many hours per day, because it makes no sense. You are a fanatic beliver, and doesnt matter what others or the hungarian Academy says, your opinion will never change, because you make identity question about it. This is the real reason. The academy and the scientific world consider hungarians as uralic, and you personal opinion doesnt matter.

You sound upset. There is no reason to get so flustered about something as basic as a conversation. Though if you are so against genetic testing because your are anxious about the accuracy of the results (even though you can always look at your raw SNPs, even on cheaper tests) then I understand how it could be daunting to read longform science. Plus, lol at "many hours per day." Have you seen our post count differences and TA join dates?

You're also ignoring the Szekler questions.... along with others. Don't start adopting Dunai's tactics, now. It makes you seem like a bot.

[Turul Karom]

Germany has no future, neither Hungary or others. The only white countries will be Poland, Ukraine and Belarus. Im not hopeless, i have tons of goal in my life what i want to reach.

....and here we are. The most truthful you have been about your despair so far in the thread. I understand your apathy for your ethnic background, but we who believe in the future will win. Also, as you have said, who cares about "white?" Europeans care about ethnicity focuses more. Hungary is ours because we are the nation. You may have hope in your private life with whatever it is you intend, but Hungary will be just fine in the hands and hearts of those who believe in themselves. I don't care if the whole world is different and outnumbers Hungarians. To those believe they have a place under the sun, they will travel and fight to stay underneath the warmth.

https://i.ibb.co/M9ZQG5Y/transylvania-holy-crown-roadway-poster.jpg (https://ibb.co/52GwnxN)

[Turul Karom]

The Uralic people's genesis is not as clear as many people think. Previously, the Proto-Uralic people were associated with pit-comb ceramics, and this was based, among other things, on the anthropological factor:there were the origins of the Lapponoid anthropological type, which is common among Western Uralic people.
Here is a description of the anthropological type of people of the Lyalovo culture (part of pit-comb culture ,4th thousand BC, Moscow region).
link (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1 %80%D0%B0)
.
Hg N was not found in the pit-comb culture, but a now extinct subclade of the haplogroup R1a was found. Perhaps this was the proto-Uralic marker. But if the hg N is found in the pit-comb culuture, then it will be possible to say with greater certainty that the hg N is a proto-Uralic marker. Now it is believed that the N hg -Uralic people arrived in Europe in 2-1 thousand BC. But then it turns out that the Mongoloid (Lappanoid) element in the Western Uralic people is not from proto- Uralic people, but from the Indo-European R1a.

Hello, I don't think we talked before, but good to chat with you. I'm sure if you have been reading this thread, you're aware of some of my positions already.

I am not going to pretend that I know a lot about pit-comb culture because my focus is on populations after 0 AD, considering that specifically the "Hungarian" identity is newer than paleolithic cultures. Since ethnic groups are always expanding and contracting throughout history, it would seem that there are always new haplogroups being added. I don't think that, at this time, it is possible for ethnic groups that form later in history (such as after 0 AD) to have one "core" haplogroup unless they are from a very isolated area. Considering that the Huns, Turkic, Ugric, and eventually Hungarian tribes all spent time on the steppes, then this mixing will be even greater. This is why I put emphasis on the haplogroups of the founding dynastic families, as they are going to have the greatest chance at being representative of the founding population's origins because people don't follow those who do not have respect and power. The only challenge is, with steppe tribes and exogamy, the haplogroups change at a more rapid rate as a population merges, collapses, steppe empires fall, wars, etc because of the nature of rapid assimilation on the steppe.

I think that it gets too esoteric when people start going to far back that we are talking about R* or I* as generally we don't even know much about who these people were since they have dissolved as a coherent ethnic identity. Especially as it relates to modern Hungarians.

If I might ask, what is your ethnicity and how do you identify?

[Leto]

Germany has no future, neither Hungary or others. The only white countries will be Poland, Ukraine and Belarus. Im not hopeless, i have tons of goal in my life what i want to reach.
Excuses me but if you don't care about genetics or race, what is your problem with the Hungarian citizens of Romani origin? They were born in the country, their parents, grandparents and so on (the Roma have been documented in Europe since the 14th century), they speak Hungarian (last time I checked Romani was only marginally spoken by Hungarian Gypsies, unlike in some other countries), they are Christians or at least not Muslims and they even have seemingly strong family values (doubt gays and lesbians are widely accepted in their community).
But I personally doubt globalization will not change them. They will be hit by it too, sooner or later. It's a matter of time.

[Chelubey]

If I might ask, what is your ethnicity and how do you identify?Volga Tatar

[Chelubey]

...

[Blondie]

Excuses me but if you don't care about genetics or race, what is your problem with the Hungarian citizens of Romani origin? They were born in the country, their parents, grandparents and so on (the Roma have been documented in Europe since the 14th century), they speak Hungarian (last time I checked Romani was only marginally spoken by Hungarian Gypsies, unlike in some other countries), they are Christians or at least not Muslims and they even have seemingly strong family values (doubt gays and lesbians are widely accepted in their community).
But I personally doubt globalization will not change them. They will be hit by it too, sooner or later. It's a matter of time.

I have never said that.

[Blondie]

You are the person who appeals to the academy. Hence the irony. The idea that many in academia say Avars are Turkic, but the majority of haplos in graves are N, while saying N indicates Uralic ancestry, while the Conqueror graves are R1, is silly. That is the entire point behind this. You are straying from the points being made by Dunai on page one and then admitted ten pages later that he was not even directly quoting because of his "inside source."

You know its very boring that you always quote Dunai while you are talking with me. I have nothing to do with this guy, if you are problem with him and his opinion, quote him, not me. I already said my opinion on avars, its not impossible that they were partly siberian.


Nice. So I guess no matter the country, if it ever had autocratic control over the people, then that means the science is tainted. I guess that means that all work done under the Hapsburgs or by the Nazis were all garbage, too. What a silly claim.

Its not a silly claim, thats fact in a dictatorship the science and the academy is not free. What do you want with nazis? They were such idiots that they kicked Einstein out from Germany who was the biggest genius of all time, just because he was jewish. That's saying everything about the "free" scientific life in the nazi Germany.


I am talking about the philosophy about valuing something more than that of your neighbor. More than material goods. If you can't appreciate that, then too bad.

And im talking about the reality that most hungarians dont even care about turkmens or other central asians, but they want better living standards and economy.


Hah, you think I am an advocate for anything less than a full genome sequence for those that can get it? The prices lower all the time, too. The idea that the tests are somehow impossible to obtain is laughable. My Szekler 50% was from my WGS, and the Turkic results (Uyghur, Kyrgyz, Chuvash, Turk Anatolia, Tatar, etc) were from the same. If you can't understand the value of even the more basic tests for haplos and other raw data (looking at individual SNPs, which has nothing to do with a company's ethnic calculator) then you are FAR behind on the times.

I am not geneticist so i dont know that scientifically, but are you geneticist? I just see these tests which shows always a different result. And i dont care anymore this topic.


"Their" who? Because they are a mix. Page two of this thread has the map of pre-Hungarian contributions.

I have talked about the proto-magyars, and these haplos are existed among proto ugrics, so we have no reason to consider it turkic.


You sound upset.

No, this is the reality. Doesn't matter how many source we give you, your mind don't change and never will. You dont care about the facts you just want certify your identity as a fanatic, that's all.


You're also ignoring the Szekler questions.... along with others.

Because i dont care székelys, they have nothing to do with this topic. You also ignored tons of things what i said, for example by your logic modern hungarians are latins, because they are roman catholics, they use latin writing, roman laws, latin names etc, i mentioned that why we should prefer turkic origin instead or ugric while these haplos have been found among ugrics, you just wrote a very long text about nothing. This is your tactic, if someone mention an awkward thing what refute you then you start to speak a totally different thing in a very long comment.


I understand your apathy for your ethnic background, but we who believe in the future will win.

Who is this we? Living in a dream world wont save you, because the gypsie birth rate is 3x higher than hungarian birth rate, this is the cold reality, and your beloved Orbán don't do anything except stealing the EU money. Also you have no idea about my generation. Once leave the retirement home and go to a house party or a college party with university students (even the conservative youth too) what do they think about Hungary and the world, or what are they doing in these parties, and finally at the end if you survive the tons of cocaine, alcohol and the bisexual orgies then you will have a little idea about the nihilist reality among the young generation.
What do you want with this Transylvania poster? :D You are far away from the reality and you live in dream world. You are dreaming about Transylvania when the romanians have 4x bigger army and this crippled robbed little country is going to extinction.

BTW i love these date base errors, fortunatelly if i a write a very long comment, i always save it in a text file before sending ;)

[Leto]

I have never said that.
I'm pretty sure you did say something along those lines. That language and identity is much more important and you don't even believe in genetics that much.
Listen, I'm one of the most conservative members here (I just don't care to talk about that because I don't find this place worthy enough) but I always laugh at what some right-wingers say about Gypsies. "Indian invaders", etc. They have been in Europe longer than whites have been in North or South America. Or even Russians east of the Urals, for that matter. And they are mixed as shit, not even half Indian genetically. A deportation scenario (where? To India where they would be pretty much foreign?) is never gonna transpire, not in a million fucking years. So my only response to that is merciless suppression of their culture without making it a racial or color thing. They are a local phenomenon, not foreign.

[Turul Karom]

You know its very boring that you always quote Dunai while you are talking with me. I have nothing to do with this guy, if you are problem with him and his opinion, quote him, not me. I already said my opinion on avars, its not impossible that they were partly siberian.

I am quoting his talking points because you spoke for him about them when you responded to my questions specifically addressing his claims. You can see this in post 92, where you reply to me.


Its not a silly claim, thats fact in a dictatorship the science and the academy is not free. What do you want with nazis? They were such idiots that they kicked Einstein out from Germany who was the biggest genius of all time, just because he was jewish. That's saying everything about the "free" scientific life in the nazi Germany.

It is a silly claim. The idea that every Turkic country colludes to call Hungarians Uralo-Altaic as a conspiracy or that it is to be dismissed because the countries have varying degrees of political censorship is illogical. The idea that a dictatorship cannot create accurate science in the first place is not true, and there are no Hungarians in their borders, so they have no incentive to say this considering we are in Europe and they are not. They all say it though, and have said it before the Turkic Council was even a thing. Hence, the idea that they must all be dismissed because of the current state of government is silly. The Nazis come in because they did stupid things like expelling smart Jews, but they also invented things on their own that the allies did not have. That is the point about dictatorships. Besides, most of historical kingdoms were autocratic, and people still invented things in those, too.


And im talking about the reality that most hungarians dont even care about turkmens or other central asians, but they want better living standards and economy.

Ok, for the third time, most humans don't feel a particular call to their identity that is greater than their consumer-oriented identity. Everyone likes a good economy. Telling me this is pointless.


I am not geneticist so i dont know that scientifically, but are you geneticist? I just see these tests which shows always a different result. And i dont care anymore this topic.

Lol, are you a historian? Or an archaeologist? Or anything else? This is a layman talk about research and opinion from both of us. Talking about credentials is pointless. The point you made was that you don't trust the ethnic predictions for various reasons, and my point was that so long as even the cheap companies allow you to download your raw data, then it will allow you to see the SNPs like an expensive company would, but less. This is information that even a layman can make use of. If you don't want to talk about it anymore, then fine, but you cannot ignore the usefulness in many circumstances. I have found great use in my genetic data.


I have talked about the proto-magyars, and these haplos are existed among proto ugrics, so we have no reason to consider it turkic.

So since they existed amongst both, would it be daring to say perhaps, maybe, that it would be alright to call the Conquering Hungarians Uralo-Altaic as a people? Hmmm. It's almost like it combines the two most common meta ethnic groups that contribute to the Hungarian ethnogenesis.


No, this is the reality. Doesn't matter how many source we give you, your mind don't change and never will. You dont care about the facts you just want certify your identity as a fanatic, that's all.

A fanatic what? There is no religion here. Everyone has seen my DNA tests, which I have posted with pride. There are some who once said (even Stears used to say) that I was a Turkish or other Turkic migrant into Hungary or that I have a Turkic parent and a Hungarian parent because of my results. However, this is not true, and Hungarian members who take genetic tests also share a Conqueror connection via their Turkic results frequently. It is quite impressive, and it would be interesting to see your results if you ever dared to take a test, too.


Because i dont care székelys, they have nothing to do with this topic. You also ignored tons of things what i said, for example by your logic modern hungarians are latins, because they are roman catholics, they use latin writing, roman laws, latin names etc, i mentioned that why we should prefer turkic origin instead or ugric while these haplos have been found among ugrics, you just wrote a very long text about nothing. This is your tactic, if someone mention an awkward thing what refute you then you start to speak a totally different thing in a very long comment.

I added about the Szeklers at the end of a conversation thread because I like to talk about them, as they are my own subgroup and wanted to see if, since you think that we would be of Turkic origin, that it would somehow make it different from the other Hungarians. You never answered me about this, and that is too bad. You never clarified how in your eyes, Szeklers are not Turkic but yet somehow still of Turkic origin. That makes it sound like we have a different origin than Hungarians, which I do not agree with, and have explained my perspective.

I write my text with information and intent. If you cannot read it all and don't want to talk anymore, then just tell me. Also, anyone who reads this thread will see that I reply to all of your statements, while you ignore my uncomfortable questions or counterpoints that make you look awkward and cut my quotes to clips rather than responding with shorter sentences. You could just do that if you want, but you want to not make it seem like you are ignoring all of the questions or not addressing the counter. That is bad practice.


Who is this we? Living in a dream world wont save you, because the gypsie birth rate is 3x higher than hungarian birth rate, this is the cold reality, and your beloved Orbán don't do anything except stealing the EU money. Also you have no idea about my generation. Once leave the retirement home and go to a house party or a college party with university students (even the conservative youth too) what do they think about Hungary and the world, or what are they doing in these parties, and finally at the end if you survive the tons of cocaine, alcohol and the bisexual orgies then you will have a little idea about the nihilist reality among the young generation.
What do you want with this Transylvania poster? :D You are far away from the reality and you live in dream world. You are dreaming about Transylvania when the romanians have 4x bigger army and this crippled robbed little country is going to extinction.

Do you think I am alone in this? Do you think I don't spend my time with like-minded Hungarians and other steppe peoples outside of TA? TA isn't even the place where I spend the most time on these topics; I am interested in real-life connections and living the most.

We have talked about this before, and I have said that you have some warped view on ages and awareness. Do you think I haven't heard of a hedonistic party or something? Even politicians partake in these hypocritical acts at times. Orbán (or any other PM) will not come to a home to clean your kitchen, teach your children about family heritage, practice national pride, work out for you in the gym, spoon feed you healthy food, etc. It is the individual that will, and healthy individuals create healthy families which create healthy nations, because the people are the nation. If people do not wish to be healthy and want to be locked into a Matrix-like pleasure system of an endless party, then that is their choice. I wish that their chains will rest lightly on their necks, and will carry on our history in their place.

Since the meaning of the poster is not with you, it represents the warmth of the sun from the end of my previous statement, and the calm, yet proud countryside which is the home of much culture and my Szekler heritage. Of course, there is the Holy Crown, the symbol of our nation, which will always say "King of the Turks" on it.

It is not me who lives in a dream. I see all of the despair and around me in the faces of many people at times of all ages, but I live my life how I will. It is you and those like you who are living in a world of demoralization. I will tell you a little not-very-secret secret:

The things people fear? The things that demoralize you, and depress you, and cause you and those party people you talked about to seek escapism or nihilism? It is a paper tiger. It is nothing. It exists in the mind. If the Roma problem wasn't here, they would find another reason to excuse their demoralization and depression. They would say the economy, or the lost wars, or Trianon, or some other group of people or politics. There will always be an excuse for the demoralized people's actions. While all of these problems are real, they are not all-powerful. They can be dismantled by a people who are internally confident in themselves on a fundamental level. They can be defeated by those who have the will to defeat them, and it all starts in the head and by living a good life. It all starts with you, that is all.

We live in the same world. Your nation is a "crippled, robbed little country that is going to extinction." My nation is a vibrant, rich nation that spans every continent and is blooming into a flower on the Tree of Life. On a long enough timeline, we are inevitable. We believe in Hungary and we believe in ourselves, just like we believe in our future though our everyday actions.


BTW i love these date base errors, fortunatelly if i a write a very long comment, i always save it in a text file before sending ;)

Of course. These database errors are awful. I wish that the website would be upgraded. I save my posts to you, too. This is another thing we can agree on, lol.

[Blondie]

I'm pretty sure you did say something along those lines. That language and identity is much more important and you don't even believe in genetics that much.

I dont belive in the genetic if someone has euro mixed ancestry for example half slovak half hungarian, but i do belive in genetic if someone has half black or half arab. I hope its clear now.


Listen, I'm one of the most conservative members here (I just don't care to talk about that because I don't find this place worthy enough) but I always laugh at what some right-wingers say about Gypsies. "Indian invaders", etc. They have been in Europe longer than whites have been in North or South America. Or even Russians east of the Urals, for that matter. And they are mixed as shit, not even half Indian genetically. A deportation scenario (where? To India where they would be pretty much foreign?) is never gonna transpire, not in a million fucking years. So my only response to that is merciless suppression of their culture without making it a racial or color thing. They are a local phenomenon, not foreign.

Who said that im conservative? Im liberal, not conservative. And be happy that there are no gypsies in Russia only in insignificant number, because it seems you have no idea about them if you think they are european.

[Blondie]

...

I will continue this debate and i will answer but only in hungarian language. I hope you are okay with it, and you will also answer in hungarian. These are such difficult topics that better if we use our native language. Interesting to see that you have very clearly and confident opinion on hungarian things, but in the last 4 years i have never seen you to argue in hungarian language about it, only in english, if the conversation became hungarian you have always disappeared. I hope you will stay now.

[Turul Karom]

I will continue this debate and i will answer but only in hungarian language. I hope you are okay with it, and you will also answer in hungarian. These are such difficult topics that better if we use our native language. Interesting to see that you have very clearly and confident opinion on hungarian things, but in the last 4 years i have never seen you to argue in hungarian language about it, only in english, if the conversation became hungarian you have always disappeared. I hope you will stay now.

I type in English because I want non-Hungarians to be able to read it, specifically Turkish members and those on my friends list. It is the Lingua Franca of the forum for a reason. You will not dictate to me the language of response. We have spoken in Hungarian and the conversation dies after little communication. Otherwise it is pointless for a public thread. You have brought this up before, and we have talked about it in the past. I have written in Hungarian when relevant to other users as fit and have helped decipher or translate Hungarian in public threads. If you are trying to accuse me of something, then be more forward with it.

[Leto]

I dont belive in the genetic if someone has euro mixed ancestry for example half slovak half hungarian, but i do belive in genetic if someone has half black or half arab. I hope its clear now.



Who said that im conservative? Im liberal, not conservative. And be happy that there are no gypsies in Russia only in insignificant number, because it seems you have no idea about them if you think they are european.
You don't know me but that's okay. I'm well aware of what the Roma are. By the way, the Ruska Roma look more or less like their Balkan brothers and they are quite well known in Russia too. Overall, Gypsies are about 35% South Asian, that is a fact. They aren't fully European but neither are they fully Indian. Plus they are not Hindus and wouldn't be able to understand any Indian language.

Target: Roma_Balkans
Distance: 1.2076% / 0.01207580
46.8 Greek_Macedonia
33.4 Chamar
19.8 Greek_Cappadocia

I don't wanna continue about Gypsies, it seems to be a pointless discussion in this case. If you're a liberal, why care about race anyway? Liberals are usually pro-immigration and diversity and hate white people. :D

[Mortimer]

You don't know me but that's okay. I'm well aware of what the Roma are. By the way, the Ruska Roma look more or less like their Balkan brothers and they are quite well known in Russia too. Overall, Gypsies are about 35% South Asian, that is a fact. They aren't fully European but neither are they fully Indian. Plus they are not Hindus and wouldn't be able to understand any Indian language.

Target: Roma_Balkans
Distance: 1.2076% / 0.01207580
46.8 Greek_Macedonia
33.4 Chamar
19.8 Greek_Cappadocia

I don't wanna continue about Gypsies, it seems to be a pointless discussion in this case. If you're a liberal, why care about race anyway? Liberals are usually pro-immigration and diversity and hate white people. :D

Some Roma or a few, have fought in the Red Army in World War 2 and have received awards. In Russia they respected Roma culture, there was or still is a Romen theatre, even in the middle ages, the Roma moved to Russia from the west because in Russia they were more tolerated, they were seen as crown servants. Is that true? I know probably Russians also have their dislike of Roma, but everyone does, under the line Russia is quiete tolerant of roma compared to some other places.

[Mortimer]

https://thesanghakommune.org/2018/07/29/the-brave-roma-gypsies-who-fought-in-the-soviet-red-armed-forces-1941-1945/

[Mortimer]

https://i.ibb.co/QnbtXtX/Brave-Gypsies-Red-Army.jpg (https://ibb.co/RPvd7d7)

[Leto]

Some Roma or a few, have fought in the Red Army in World War 2 and have received awards. In Russia they respected Roma culture, there was or still is a Romen theatre, even in the middle ages, the Roma moved to Russia from the west because in Russia they were more tolerated, they were seen as crown servants. Is that true? I know probably Russians also have their dislike of Roma, but everyone does, under the line Russia is quiete tolerant of roma compared to some other places.
I don't know when exactly they appeared in Russia but I assume it was later than in Romania/Bulgaria and also it was probably only in Southern parts initially, including modern Ukraine. They often speak with a Southern or Ukrainian-like accent. Plus many moved to Russia more recently from Moldova.
The Soviet Union tried to create some artificial culture for almost all ethnic groups. Authors, poets, musicians, actors, etc. But Romani music was indeed somewhat famous. I was born in '91, not a Soviet person, so I have no personal experience from those times. Overall, the Tziganes are still the same thieves and fortune tellers in Russia as everywhere else. Sad but true.

[Mortimer]

I don't know when exactly they appeared in Russia but I assume it was later than in Romania/Bulgaria and also it was probably only in Southern parts initially, including modern Ukraine. They often speak with a Southern or Ukrainian-like accent. Plus many moved to Russia more recently from Moldova.
The Soviet Union tried to create some artificial culture for almost all ethnic groups. Authors, poets, musicians, actors, etc. But Romani music was indeed somewhat famous. I was born in '91, not a Soviet person, so I have no personal experience from those times. Overall, the Tziganes are still the same thieves and fortune tellers in Russia as everywhere else. Sad but true.

Maybe because Russians are thieves and lazy gopniks themselfes they have more tolerance for them. I noticed that about Serbia, in Serbia gypsies say "Tito stole but he let us steal too" and they liked Tito as well as Milosevic because he allows them "to steal". And there are so many in Serbia, I cannot imagine them to live like that in those large numbers in western europe.

[Scandal]

I dont belive in the genetic if someone has euro mixed ancestry for example half slovak half hungarian, but i do belive in genetic if someone has half black or half arab. I hope its clear now.



Who said that im conservative? Im liberal, not conservative. And be happy that there are no gypsies in Russia only in insignificant number, because it seems you have no idea about them if you think they are european.
Why do you mean you don't believe in genetics in case of a mixed European? You don't believe in the accuracy of genetic tests or that you don't find genetics important / relevant?

[Leto]

Maybe because Russians are thieves and lazy gopniks themselfes they have more tolerance for them. I noticed that about Serbia, in Serbia gypsies say "Tito stole but he let us steal too" and they liked Tito as well as Milosevic because he allows them "to steal". And there are so many in Serbia, I cannot imagine them to live like that in those large numbers in western europe.
We are not thieves, don't compare Russians to Gypsies. Russians are actually hardworking people. Gypsies are just not that numerous and more dispersed in Russia. But make no mistake, the general reputation of them is the same everywhere. From Spain to Russia.

Your people need to stop being Gypsies, only then the plight will end. You are mixed and uprooted yourself, if you were healthy, you would mix further and your kids would be whites with zero Gypsy culture.

Anyway, I wanted to stop this offtopic discussion and then you showed up out of fucking nowhere.

[Mortimer]

We are not thieves, don't compare Russians to Gypsies. Russians are actually hardworking people. Gypsies are just not that numerous and more dispersed in Russia. But make no mistake, the general reputation of them is the same everywhere. From Spain to Russia.

Your people need to stop being Gypsies, only then the plight will end. You are mixed and uprooted yourself, if you were healthy, you would mix further and your kids would be whites with zero Gypsy culture.

Anyway, I wanted to stop this offtopic discussion and then you showed up out of fucking nowhere.

You changed now your opinion though. Russians might think of themselfes as hardworking but gypsies think good about themselfes for example if you ask me to describe what gypsies are i would not call them thieves or something, but in other words, russians have just more power in the world to describe themselfes who they are. But in some places russians but also poles are thieves, plumbers and lazy drunks. Thats how someone else will describe you just like russians describe the gypsies as thieves.

[Leto]

You changed now your opinion though. Russians might think of themselfes as hardworking but gypsies think good about themselfes for example if you ask me to describe what gypsies are i would not call them thieves or something, but in other words, russians have just more power in the world to describe themselfes who they are. But in some places russians but also poles are thieves, plumbers and lazy drunks. Thats how someone else will describe you just like russians describe the gypsies as thieves.
I did not change my opinion. I have been advocating for Gypsy assimilation for a long time, as opposed to some completely unrealistic ideas that I hear sometimes on the far right.
I knew a Russian Gyspy and believe it or not, he was a Hitler sympathizer (against immigration of Muslims to Germany). :D He was a proud Romani, spoke Romani and had some interest in Indian languages.

[Scandal]

I did not change my opinion. I have been advocating for Gypsy assimilation for a long time, as opposed to some completely unrealistic ideas that I hear sometimes on the far right.
I knew a Russian Gyspy and believe it or not, he was a Hitler sympathizer (against immigration of Muslims to Germany). :D He was a proud Romani, spoke Romani and had some interest in Indian languages.
I also believe that mixing with gypsies and assimilating them is better than having them grow as a "paralel society", but it won't happen. Firstly, assimilation should've happened when their number was small. Secondly, you can't force two people live with each other as partners if they (or at least one of them) are not willing. It just won't work.

[Blondie]

I type in English because I want non-Hungarians to be able to read it, specifically Turkish members and those on my friends list. It is the Lingua Franca of the forum for a reason. You will not dictate to me the language of response. We have spoken in Hungarian and the conversation dies after little communication. Otherwise it is pointless for a public thread. You have brought this up before, and we have talked about it in the past. I have written in Hungarian when relevant to other users as fit and have helped decipher or translate Hungarian in public threads. If you are trying to accuse me of something, then be more forward with it.

No, its not answer, in the last 4 years i have never seen any hungarian comment from you in these topics what you love so much, every single hungarian user do it, except you, but we have talked about this turkic "identity" among hungarian too and you have never been there. There were many times that these debates started in english (you also wrote in english) but after a while we continued it hungarian you have always disappeared.
In the past you sent me only 1 pm, i would not call it communication, and it means nothing because if i have enough time i also can write such message in english like a native, but you never join us when we are talking in hungarian, never in the last 4 years. So let's go speak hungarian, you are a hungarian guy from Hungary, so its not difficult for sure, and we can continue this debate in hungarian.

[Blondie]

I'm well aware of what the Roma are.

No you dont, nobody call gpsies europeans because of their non european behaviour. Nobody cares the genetic, you also said the number of gypsies insignificant in Russia, just because you know only one good gypsie, it doesnt mean they behave like europeans. Just ask serbian, romanian, hungarian, bulgarian, spanish members about them, they will say same things.

[Mortimer]

I also believe that mixing with gypsies and assimilating them is better than having them grow as a "paralel society", but it won't happen. You can't force two people live with each other as partners if they (or at least one of them) are not willing. It just won't work.

Maria Theresia or another Austrian empress forced some Gypsies in Hungary to mix and assimilate. What happened to them are they hungarians now?

[Mortimer]

No you dont, nobody call gpsies europeans because of their non european behaviour. Nobody cares the genetic, you also said the number of gypsies insignificant in Russia, just because you know only one good gypsie, it doesnt mean they behave like europeans. Just ask serbian, romanian, hungarian, bulgarian, spanish members about them, they will say same things.

European is overrated, nowadays you are not forced to act or look or be european to be allowed to live in Europe. Because there are so many immigrants, and the mainstream opinion is that they should integrate but dont need to assimilate.

It is the 21st century

[Scandal]

Maria Theresia or another Austrian empress forced some Gypsies in Hungary to mix and assimilate. What happened to them are they hungarians now?
At the time assimilation meant that gypsies were forced to abandon their traditional traveller lifestyle. They might speak hungarian language and some hungarians and gypsies do mix with each other but for the most part they live as a paralel society with different culture.

[Mortimer]

At the time assimilation meant that gypsies were forced to abandon their traditional traveller lifestyle. They might speak hungarian language and some hungarians and gypsies do mix with each other but for the most part they live as a paralel society with different culture.

I see, but why would gypsies need to be deported even if they stay as gypsies or look different? Blondie still thinks she is german, and speaks german, she still is different to hungarian hungarians, and no one says she must leave to Germany. Well she is all european though but it is the same principle. In Serbia hungarians refuse to assimilate, eventhough they could easy being white and all that, they speak hungarian, and have hungarian language in school etc. They do want to be different. Do you think they should be deported?

[Blondie]

European is overrated, nowadays you are not forced to act or look or be european to be allowed to live in Europe. Because there are so many immigrants, and the mainstream opinion is that they should integrate but dont need to assimilate.

It is the 21st century

Okay captain Jack, if you want to live in Europe you must behave like europeans, and we are full of migrants, we dont want more.

[Mortimer]

Okay captain Jack, if you want to live in Europe you must behave like europeans, and we are full of migrants, we dont want more.

in europe there is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, minority rights etc. it seems you do not believe in democracy.

[Blondie]

I see, but why would gypsies need to be deported even if they stay as gypsies or look different? Blondie still thinks she is german, and speaks german, she still is different to hungarian hungarians, and no one says she must leave to Germany. Well she is all european though but it is the same principle. In Serbia hungarians refuse to assimilate, eventhough they could easy being white and all that, they speak hungarian, and have hungarian language in school etc. They do want to be different. Do you think they should be deported?

I have never said that we must deport gypsies, but they must act like europeans. Hungarians from vojvodina act like europeans and they dont live in separated ghettos.

[Mortimer]

I have never said that we must deport gypsies, but they must act like europeans. Hungarians from vojvodina act like europeans and they dont live in separated ghettos.

If by acting european you mean hardwork, school, civilised behaviour i agree, but that is universal to every core civilisation around the world like china, india, middle east, even parts of africa etc. it is not "european"

[Blondie]

in europe there is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, minority rights etc. it seems you do not believe in democracy.

Democracy doesnt mean that we should let to destroy our societies by these who are not even democratic.

[andre]

There is an hungarian that could help me?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358806-What-does-it-mean-this-word-in-Hungarian

[Scandal]

There is an hungarian that could help me?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358806-What-does-it-mean-this-word-in-Hungarian
I saw the thread before but I didn't answer because I have no idea. The word doesn't mean anything to my knowledge. It's a rare surname in Hungary.

[Blondie]

There is an hungarian that could help me?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358806-What-does-it-mean-this-word-in-Hungarian

It means nothing.

[Varda]

I remember from history that Habsburgs brought Serbs into Hungary and settled them around Ottoman border, to use them as a christian border security force. (Which was so massive movement resulted in almost empty Serbia.) Forgive me if im wrong.

Serbian migrations to Pannonia started much before Habsburgs, but existed in Habsburg period as well.

In 1480s there was many fight on the southern borders of Hungary and in Bosnia. The initiative was given almost equally by Serbian border guards and Turks. Despot Vuk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Grgurević) stood out in particular. In autumn 1481. despot Vuk defeated Turkish army of the Smederevo commander Skender bey, and he broke into Serbia all the way to Kruševac. Serbian chronicles record how he took away a lot of people from Kruševac area. He took away over 60 000 Serbs from Kruševac area, and devastated whole area. By order of Hungarian king those Serbs moved around Timişoara. Hungarian king in general wanted to inhabit the sparsely populated southern areas, and to strengthen Serbs on that side in order to be more capable for resistance. From 1478. to 1482. in Hungary settled about 200 000 Serbs, according to one of his statements. "In the order to bind immigrant Serbs as strongly as possible and get new ones from migration, Hungarian parliament passes an act exempting Serbs from paying taxes (desetak) to the Catholic clergy."

^^
History of Serbs - Vladimir Ćorović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ćorović)


About Serbian migrations to Pannonia in Habsburg period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Great_serb_migration.png/1024px-Great_serb_migration.png

[Turul Karom]

No, its not answer, in the last 4 years i have never seen any hungarian comment from you in these topics what you love so much, every single hungarian user do it, except you, but we have talked about this turkic "identity" among hungarian too and you have never been there. There were many times that these debates started in english (you also wrote in english) but after a while we continued it hungarian you have always disappeared.
In the past you sent me only 1 pm, i would not call it communication, and it means nothing because if i have enough time i also can write such message in english like a native, but you never join us when we are talking in hungarian, never in the last 4 years. So let's go speak hungarian, you are a hungarian guy from Hungary, so its not difficult for sure, and we can continue this debate in hungarian.

It is an answer that you won't accept, but you will have to deal with it. We have been over this more than once. The Hungarian-only language topics are dead. As in, very dead. Not even other Hungarians participate in them a lot. Nobody posts there. Even in the English parts of the Hungarian section, it takes luck for the topics to gain attention. You know basic math. Compare how many pages that the English threads get compared to the Hungarian-only ones. There is no "disappearing" because there is no public conversation to be had. You are constructing a narrative of accusation, but it is plain for people to see.

You never send me PMs; the few we have sent have been in Hungarian. You have never made an attempt to even know me in good faith but instead make instigating threads about my character (both in English and Hungarian). I have spoken Hungarian as I have desired with Dunai, Kökény, Gergő Marosvári, and more, and even you in the reputation comments when you accuse me of "spoiling your thread" one time in Hungarian. When cornered, you also bring up showing me PMs from other members and "what they think about me" as though that is going to change my opinions on an anonymous Internet forum.

I have already gotten rep comments and messages from people saying that they appreciate how I write in English about Hungarian things (again, on an English Lingua Franca forum). You are not even on my TA friends list (despite me attempting to add you). Why would I care about appeasing you when, as I have said, I want my friends list to read these points?

If you have something to accuse me of, then say it. It is right on the tip of your tongue.

[Blondie]

It is an answer that you won't accept, but you will have to deal with it. We have been over this more than once. The Hungarian-only language topics are dead. As in, very dead. Not even other Hungarians participate in them a lot. Nobody posts there. Even in the English parts of the Hungarian section, it takes luck for the topics to gain attention. You know basic math. Compare how many pages that the English threads get compared to the Hungarian-only ones. There is no "disappearing" because there is no public conversation to be had. You are constructing a narrative of accusation, but it is plain for people to see.

You never send me PMs; the few we have sent have been in Hungarian. You have never made an attempt to even know me in good faith but instead make instigating threads about my character (both in English and Hungarian). I have spoken Hungarian as I have desired with Dunai, Kökény, Gergő Marosvári, and more, and even you in the reputation comments when you accuse me of "spoiling your thread" one time in Hungarian. When cornered, you also bring up showing me PMs from other members and "what they think about me" as though that is going to change my opinions on an anonymous Internet forum.

I have already gotten rep comments and messages from people saying that they appreciate how I write in English about Hungarian things (again, on an English Lingua Franca forum). You are not even on my TA friends list (despite me attempting to add you). Why would I care about appeasing you when, as I have said, I want my friends list to read these points?

If you have something to accuse me of, then say it. It is right on the tip of your tongue.

Don't make me laugh, the hungarian subforum is one of the most active here, there were 100-150 or more different thread in the last 4 years, we have talked about every kind of topic in thousands of page, you didn't write anything in hungarian there, never, if the conversation became hungarian you have disappeared. And it seems you take this whole turkic thing very seriously (thats why you write very very long comments), so i don't really understand why you didnt write anything when we have talked about it in hungarian. This is simple makes no sense. You are the only exception who don't argue in hungarian although you are a very proud hungarian nationalist with very clearly and confident opinion, but this behavior just disappear when we use hungarian language.
Don't be paranoid and nervous, i just want a fair debate. My english is not so good, i cant write many thing what i want, because of my low english skill, i use mostly dictionary when i write these long answers, it took several hours to write it and sorry but i have no 3-4 hour / day free time just for you, with hungarian it would be more easly, so dont be shy lets continue this debate in hungarian here. Because its impossible to argue in reputation or private messages.

[Turul Karom]

Don't make me laugh, the hungarian subforum is one of the most active here, there were 100-150 or more different thread in the last 4 years, we have talked about every kind of topic in thousands of page, you didn't write anything in hungarian there, never, if the conversation became hungarian you have disappeared. And it seems you take this whole turkic thing very seriously (thats why you write very very long comments), so i don't really understand why you didnt write anything when we have talked about it in hungarian. This is simple makes no sense. You are the only exception who don't argue in hungarian although you are a very proud hungarian nationalist with very clearly and confident opinion, but this behavior just disappear when we use hungarian language.
Don't be paranoid and nervous, i just want a fair debate. My english is not so good, i cant write many thing what i want, because of my low english skill, i use mostly dictionary when i write these long answers, it took several hours to write it and sorry but i have no 3-4 hour / day free time just for you, with hungarian it would be more easly, so dont be shy lets continue this debate in hungarian here. Because its impossible to argue in reputation or private messages.

What subforum are you reading? The Hungarian subforum is already majority English, where Hungarian-only topics barely reach past page 1. You know this, and anyone with eyes can click the subforum and see for themselves.

What I find strange is that you, despite saying now "oh, my English is not good" debate across multiple pages in many threads about this topic and others. Now your English fails you? You have been doing fine so far. You also seem to debate with other members just fine in English.

Get this for the third time: I write specifically in English for my friends list and others who cannot read or write Hungarian. Writing everything in Hungarian only will mean only 5 people who look at this thread will read it.

Even what you just quoted from me, you ignored my points and questions and just repeat yourself. I don't know how many times I need to rephrase the same explanation. If you want to accuse me of something, then you can do it as you have done before. It would not be the first time.

[Blondie]

What subforum are you reading? The Hungarian subforum is already majority English, where Hungarian-only topics barely reach past page 1. You know this, and anyone with eyes can click the subforum and see for themselves.

What I find strange is that you, despite saying now "oh, my English is not good" debate across multiple pages in many threads about this topic and others. Now your English fails you? You have been doing fine so far. You also seem to debate with other members just fine in English.

Get this for the third time: I write specifically in English for my friends list and others who cannot read or write Hungarian. Writing everything in Hungarian only will mean only 5 people who look at this thread will read it.

Even what you just quoted from me, you ignored my points and questions and just repeat yourself. I don't know how many times I need to rephrase the same explanation. If you want to accuse me of something, then you can do it as you have done before. It would not be the first time.

Threads in hungarian language just from the first page:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357677-quot-Mindenki-k%E9sz%FClj%F6n-fel-a-Nagy-%DAjraind%EDt%E1sra-quot
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357186-Az-ellenz%E9k-gazdas%E1gprogramja
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?337749-Besz%E9lj%FCnk-a-hazai-cig%E1nys%E1gr%F3l-%26%23337%3Bszint%E9n-nyiltan-%E9rvek-ment%E9n
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353723-Mi-a-v%E9lem%E9nyetek-Jakab-P%E9terr%26%23337%3Bl
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353638-Nagymor%E1via-mint-els%26%23337%3B-Szlov%E1k-%E1llam
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?351858-Itt-az-el%26%23337%3Bv%E1laszt%E1s!

I think you can image how many such thread exist from the last 4 year. So stop this bullshit and don't make excuses, why dont you speak hungarian?

[Turul Karom]

Threads in hungarian language just from the first page:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357677-quot-Mindenki-k%E9sz%FClj%F6n-fel-a-Nagy-%DAjraind%EDt%E1sra-quot
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?357186-Az-ellenz%E9k-gazdas%E1gprogramja
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?337749-Besz%E9lj%FCnk-a-hazai-cig%E1nys%E1gr%F3l-%26%23337%3Bszint%E9n-nyiltan-%E9rvek-ment%E9n
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353723-Mi-a-v%E9lem%E9nyetek-Jakab-P%E9terr%26%23337%3Bl
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353638-Nagymor%E1via-mint-els%26%23337%3B-Szlov%E1k-%E1llam
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?351858-Itt-az-el%26%23337%3Bv%E1laszt%E1s!

I think you can image how many such thread exist from the last 4 year. So stop this bullshit and don't make excuses, why dont you speak hungarian?

LMAO thank you for proving my point!

Link one has 3 posts of only one sentence.
Link two has 3 posts with one just being a XD emoji.
Link three has some discussion that makes it to page two from a month when I didn't even post on TA anywhere.
Link four has 9 posts (mostly you).
Link five has 6 posts (two of which are banter).
Link six has English posts and is the only language thread that makes it past page 2.

Amazing.

It's literally impossible for me to explain it more. Your links are the perfect example. I write in English because it is the Lingua Franca of the forum and my friend list, the majority who cannot speak Hungarian. I speak in Hungarian when I please with whom I please, as I have done in private and in public.

If you want to accuse me of something, then just do it. You've done it before.

[Blondie]

LMAO thank you for proving my point!

Link one has 3 posts of only one sentence.
Link two has 3 posts with one just being a XD emoji.
Link three has some discussion that makes it to page two from a month when I didn't even post on TA anywhere.
Link four has 9 posts (mostly you).
Link five has 6 posts (two of which are banter).
Link six has English posts and is the only language thread that makes it past page 2.

Amazing.

It's literally impossible for me to explain it more. Your links are the perfect example. I write in English because it is the Lingua Franca of the forum and my friend list, the majority who cannot speak Hungarian. I speak in Hungarian when I please with whom I please, as I have done in private and in public.

If you want to accuse me of something, then just do it. You've done it before.

Proving your point? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: you are the one and ony user here who never use his native language in topics, everyone do it, not just hungarians but everyone except you. Don't make excuses it became very awkward and laughable, also why are you lying? You claimed " Link six has English posts and is the only language thread that makes it past page 2." English posts? Really? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: These posts are from this thread:


Jó volt látni ennyi év után miniszterelnök jelölteket értelmesen vitázni konkrét, húsbavágó témákról, anélkül, hogy valamelyikük széttrollkodná agyatlan sorosozással és migráncsozással. Az értelmes emberek visszakívánkoznak a demokráciába és azt akarják látni, hogy még akkor is, ha másképp gondolkozunk mégis képesek vagyunk egymás mellet lenni és párbeszédet folytatni, anélkül, hogy megkérdőjeleznénk egymás magyarságát. Nagyon várom, ha tavasszal lesz annyi becsülete és bátorsága a Fidesznek, hogy hasonlóan kiálljanak vitázni, mint bármelyik nyugati demokráciában, ha már az embereket akarják képviselni, hiszen ilyen a képviseleti demokrácia: nem bujkálni kell az emberektől, hanem szembesülni a kritikával és számonkéréssel az állampolgárok részéről.


Te hol láttál vitát? :D Nem volt semmilyen vita, mert az összes ugyanazt mondta, nincs is mit megvitatni mert nincsenek párt programok csak egy közös program amit végre fog hajtani az adott jelölt. Vita akkor lett volna ha mondjuk Toroczkait is meghívják, mivel ő is ellenzéki, csak hát a tolerancia bajnokai mégse tolerálnak mindenkit. :cool:
Az egyetlen esélye ennek az egész gitt egyletnek ha Márki-Zay lesz a jelölt, bárki mással Orbán 2/3-al fogja a padlót feltörölni.


Ennyi év kihagyás után ezt is értékelni kell amit láttunk. Persze, hogy nem fognak egymásnak esni, hiszen szövetségesek, képzeld ezt el úgy, mint az amerikai demokrata vagy republikánus párt előválasztásának. Ott is szövetségesek versengnek egymással, hogy képviselhessék pártjukat a fő megmérettetésen. Ha most egymás nyakának ugranak, akkor később aligha számíthatnak ezen személyek támogatására, amikor szükség lesz rájuk az Orbán elleni fő menetben. Remélem az ellentétek jobban ki fognak jönni a következő vitában, épp ezért nagyon sajnálom, hogy bizonyos ellenzéki jelöltek féltek elmenni a Partizánhoz vitázni, ahol valóban karakteres állásfoglalást kellett volna megfogalmazniuk vízválasztó kérdésekben, mint az adó politika, szociális és felzárkózási program, oktatás és egészségügy, de talán ennél fontosabban elszámoltatás. Már az eddigi vitában is látszottak némely ellentétek, főleg Karácsony baloldali és Márky-Zay jobboldali gazdaságpolitikájában, de szeretnék még több konkrétumot hallani tőlük, evvel egyet értek.


Nem lesz semmilyen elszámoltatás, max akkor ha Márki-Zay nyer, ő az egyedüli aki a szocikat is elszámoltatná a Fidesszel együtt. De kérdem én az ellenzéknek nem kell elszámolnia semmivel? Tiszta és makulátlan kezű mind? Mert ha nem és tényleg változást akarnak akkor magukkal is kéne valamit kezdeni és akkor a Fidesz is teljesen jogosan mondaná hogy nekik miért is nem kell elszámolniuk?
És miért ne eshetnének egymás nyakának? Az egy őszinte politika hogy a saját dolgaikat agyonhallgatják és nem beszélnek róla? Az amerikai választást butaság volt felhozni mert amikor a republikánusok és demokraták versenyeztek ki induljon a másik féllel szemben kihívóként ott kőkemény viták voltak, nem egyszer személyeskedéssel. Cruz és Trump pl folyamatosan offolták egymást ahogy Clinton és Sanders is.


De, nagyon remélem, hogy a teljes szabadságát visszanyert főügyészség párttalanul, minden politikai irányultságú gazdasági csoportosulást átvizsgál és feljelentést tesz, ha a bűn gyanúja erősen felmerül. Ezért kell az igazságszolgáltatást teljesen függetleníteni a pártoktól és ilyen pártkádereket, mint Polt Pétert, végérvényesen le kell váltani, máskülönben aligha lesz itt elszámolás. Őszintén semmilyen nagyságrendű elszámoltatásra nem várok, csak legyen ismételten pártoktól független ügyészég és bírói testület és a többi jön magától.


Még nem vagyok biztos a "voksom győztesében", de ami tuti hogy az nem a Jobbik lesz.
Igazság szerint mind a másik négy jelölt nekem szimpatikus volt. Jakabot is bírtam anno, de már nekem túl sok lett a pali.

Még ha minden igaz lesz még egy "vita"? Az majd segít nekem abban hogy ki kapja majd a szavazatomat.


Nálam Dobrev és Jakab a soha, semmilyen esetben kategória. Mindkettő erősen szekta gondolkodású párt és ami számomra talán legkevésbé elfogadható bennük, hogy különböző származású népcsoportok megbélyegzésére építették a népszerűségüket: első esetben a határon túli magyarokra, második esetben a romákra és zsidókra. Eddig Karácsony zöld és baloldali víziója a legígéretesebb, azonban eléggé elbizonytalanít a több éve folytatott együttműködése az MSZP-vel. Fekete-Győr és Márki-Zay túl technokraták és jobboldaliak nekem, de úgy különösen nem utasítom el őket, mint Jakabot és Dobrevet.


Fegyőr hol jobbos? Milliószor elmondták már hogy a skandináv szoci gazdasági modellt akarják követni. Még csak gazdasági liberalizmussal se lehet összehozni őket, ez nem az SZDSZ.


Vannak szocdem és zöld meglátásaik, azonban egészen piacpártiak és nem igazán zavarja őket a külföldi nagytőkének jelentős befolyása a magyar gazdaságra és politikára. Ők felnéznek és modellként tekintik az En Marche-t, VVD-t és FDP-t, amelyek mind jobboldali liberális pártok. A szimpatizánsaik is inkább jobbközép liberális típusúak.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?351858-Itt-az-el%26%23337%3Bv%E1laszt%E1s!/page2

But i dont want copy paste all of them, only english huh? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Why don't you speak hungarian?

[Hektor12]

For the record, because im interested in Hungary and Hungarians, if i see a post in Hungarian i translate and read it. Its easy= i use chrome its just right click and translate this page.

[Turul Karom]

Proving your point? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: you are the one and ony user here who never use his native language in topics, everyone do it, not just hungarians but everyone except you. Don't make excuses it became very awkward and laughable, also why are you lying? You claimed " Link six has English posts and is the only language thread that makes it past page 2." English posts? Really? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: These posts are from this thread:

But i dont want copy paste all of them, only english huh? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Why don't you speak hungarian?

You are misquoting me. I did not say it was all English. Anyone can click those links and see that they have no substantive posts besides the one that you just pointlessly posted. Unless you think OP posting a link with no text and emojis or banter is substantive.

English threads about Hungarians get 1000% more traction. I speak Hungarian to whom I wish, as I have before in public and in private. I have nothing to prove one way or another. You can either interact with me on my terms since you don't respect what I even say in the first place, or you can choose to ignore me.

I know it is right on the edge of your mind. You can say what you wish; we are all smart people here.


For the record, because im interested in Hungary and Hungarians, if i see a post in Hungarian i translate and read it. Its easy= i use chrome its just right click and translate this page.

I appreciate that, bro. There are too few people who would be interested in us as it is to even bother. Plus, chrome's plugin isn't the best. I won't be the only Hungarian to tell you how badly translated things come out when done with such software, lol

[Blondie]

You are misquoting me. I did not say it was all English. Anyone can click those links and see that they have no substantive posts besides the one that you just pointlessly posted. Unless you think OP posting a link with no text and emojis or banter is substantive.

English threads about Hungarians get 1000% more traction. I speak Hungarian to whom I wish, as I have before in public and in private. I have nothing to prove one way or another. You can either interact with me on my terms since you don't respect what I even say in the first place, or you can choose to ignore me.

I know it is right on the edge of your mind. You can say what you wish; we are all smart people here.

Man.... you claimed that the hungarian subforum is dead, i posted tons of link in hungarian and this is just the first page, in these links there were very long debates in hungarian and you said these comments are in english :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

This always making excuses is very awkward and laughable, just like your nonsense claims that hungarian debates dont exist.


they have no substantive posts besides the one that you just pointlessly posted

Why are you lying again?

This is from the 2. link:


Úgy tűnik MZP liberális gazdaságpolitikai elképzelései tejesen háttérbe szorulnak és lesz egy szép kis Venezuela az országból,igazi klasszik szocialista politikával: gazdag adó, gazdagok elleni koncepciós perek, hitelkárosultak kisegitése magyarán a friss diplomás pályakezdő fogja majd kifizetni Lakatos Rikárdó hitelből vett mercijét. De a kedvencem Varjú Laci aki EU-s minimálbért akar, nem hittem volna hogy az évezred parasztvakitását megint bedobják, nem tudom Lacika hogy fogja majd elmagyarázni az átlag németnek meg franciának hogy fizessenek be több adót hogy a magyar dolgozók többet kereshessenek, de sok sikert neki ;)

Na ezekre én biztos nem fogok szavazni, ha meg nyernek megyek is ki szépen külföldre, apum vállalkozásaival együtt. Engem nem fognak ezek meglopni.

In this link the comments are only hungarian, and very long:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?337749-Besz%E9lj%FCnk-a-hazai-cig%E1nys%E1gr%F3l-%26%23337%3Bszint%E9n-nyiltan-%E9rvek-ment%E9n

4. link, also only hungarian with very long comments:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353723-Mi-a-v%E9lem%E9nyetek-Jakab-P%E9terr%26%23337%3Bl

5. Link, only hungarian comments, and its connecting to the conquest of carpathian basin:


A szlovák nemzet a tanulmányaim alapján egy relatív modern képződés (utóbbi néhány száz év), Nagymorávia, ha már összeköthető manapság valakikkel, azok a mai morvák, akik Csehországban élnek. Teljesen megértem, hogy a szlovák nacionalizmus próbál minél koraibb történelmi folytonosságot kimutatni és ezáltal történelmi elsőbbséget és felsőbbrendűséget találni a magyarokkal szemben, de ez még nem teszi Nagymoráviát egyenlővé a mai Szlovákiával.


Nem volt szlovák állam, mert abban az időben szlovák etnikum nem létezett. Viszont azt lehet mondani hogy a szlovákok őseinek az állama volt. A mai Szlovákia területén élő szlávok a 17-18 század előtt nem voltak egységesek és különféle nyelveket beszéltek mint cseh, morva, ukrán, lengyel.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353638-Nagymor%E1via-mint-els%26%23337%3B-Szlov%E1k-%E1llam

And i have already posted the 6. link and i didn't posted the complete 2. page, these also only in hungarian. Why dont you speak hungarian? But really...

[Aspirin]

Listen, I'm one of the most conservative members here (I just don't care to talk about that because I don't find this place worthy enough) but I always laugh at what some right-wingers say about Gypsies. "Indian invaders", etc.

Gypsies are invaders, nobody from Europe brought them here like African Blacks in both Americas. For some reason Europeans are taught to tolerate them and to kiss their feet like they have some obligations towards them.

[Leto]

Gypsies are invaders, nobody from Europe brought them here like African Blacks in both Americas. For some reason Europeans are taught to tolerate them and to kiss their feet like they have some obligations towards them.
They are very mixed people. Basically everything between Northern India and Southeastern Europe. You were nowhere to be found when I posted actual Romani Gedmatch results. But then again, you don't know or care much about DNA testing to begin with.

[Blondie]

They are very mixed people. Basically everything between Northern India and Southeastern Europe. You were nowhere to be found when I posted actual Romani Gedmatch results. But then again, you don't know or care much about DNA testing to begin with.

Nobody cares the gypsie genetic, the problem with gypsies is not the gentic, but their non european behavior. But first of all you should visit a real gypsie ghetto in Romania, Hungary or Balkans, because there is no such thing where you live, so you dont know anything about them.

[Varda]

Gypsies are invaders, nobody from Europe brought them here like African Blacks in both Americas. For some reason Europeans are taught to tolerate them and to kiss their feet like they have some obligations towards them.

In the Balkans Gypsies are direct product of Ottoman invasion. Ottomans brought them as own servants, blacksmiths, musicians etc. Vast majority of Gypsies in the Balkans in Ottoman time were Muslims as their Turkish masters. When Ottomans are removed part of Balkan Gypsies converted to Christianity, but still significant part of them are Muslims. In the Balkans sometimes Ottomans used Gypsies for crimes against Christian population as revenge for their uprisings, same as Bashi-bazouk.

[Turul Karom]

Man.... you claimed that the hungarian subforum is dead, i posted tons of link in hungarian and this is just the first page, in these links there were very long debates in hungarian and you said these comments are in english :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

This always making excuses is very awkward and laughable, just like your nonsense claims that hungarian debates dont exist.



Why are you lying again?

This is from the 2. link:



In this link the comments are only hungarian, and very long:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?337749-Besz%E9lj%FCnk-a-hazai-cig%E1nys%E1gr%F3l-%26%23337%3Bszint%E9n-nyiltan-%E9rvek-ment%E9n

4. link, also only hungarian with very long comments:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353723-Mi-a-v%E9lem%E9nyetek-Jakab-P%E9terr%26%23337%3Bl

5. Link, only hungarian comments, and its connecting to the conquest of carpathian basin:


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353638-Nagymor%E1via-mint-els%26%23337%3B-Szlov%E1k-%E1llam

And i have already posted the 6. link and i didn't posted the complete 2. page, these also only in hungarian. Why dont you speak hungarian? But really...

Would you like to post examples from the threads about the length? Or the content in the rest? You take the one post from the threads that have hardly anything, and post it here like it means something. The threads have no posts. No content. You don't understand that most of the people here don't participate in these discussions. You either cannot count or are embarrassed by the weakness of your argument. Hungarian-only threads do not get even close to the clicks and participants of English threads about the same topic.

Why is this challenging for you to understand? If you are so demoralized, then you can feel free to ignore everything and enjoy yourself as you will. It's already sad how you think that Hungary is dead. What do I say to you that would mean anything? Also, I almost didn't post at all on TA in 2021. Do I need to partake in every thread that has 3-6 posts and add my one sentence in Hungarian? I will speak how I will with who I will.

Now you are just burying the topics you failed to address and your Szekler hypocrisy, which I very politely asked you to clarify. If you want to make any claims about me, then I am right here.

[Blondie]

Would you like to post examples from the threads about the length? Or the content in the rest? You take the one post from the threads that have hardly anything, and post it here like it means something. The threads have no posts. No content. You don't understand that most of the people here don't participate in these discussions. You either cannot count or are embarrassed by the weakness of your argument. Hungarian-only threads do not get even close to the clicks and participants of English threads about the same topic.

Why is this challenging for you to understand? If you are so demoralized, then you can feel free to ignore everything and enjoy yourself as you will. It's already sad how you think that Hungary is dead. What do I say to you that would mean anything? Also, I almost didn't post at all on TA in 2021. Do I need to partake in every thread that has 3-6 posts and add my one sentence in Hungarian? I will speak how I will with who I will.

Now you are just burying the topics you failed to address and your Szekler hypocrisy, which I very politely asked you to clarify. If you want to make any claims about me, then I am right here.

I said, i will debate you in hungarian, but you dont want. Btw don't change the subject, i posted many link from various hungarian topics, there were serious debates in hungarian in long comments, didn't you really find any topic in the last 4 years where you could make a comment in hungarian? Hard to belive, but of course you always have cheap excuses why dont you speak hungarian, never in the last 4 years.

[Aspirin]

In the Balkans Gypsies are direct product of Ottoman invasion. Ottomans brought them as own servants, blacksmiths, musicians etc. Vast majority of Gypsies in the Balkans in Ottoman time were Muslims as their Turkish masters. When Ottomans are removed part of Balkan Gypsies converted to Christianity, but still significant part of them are Muslims. In the Balkans sometimes Ottomans used Gypsies for crimes against Christian population as revenge for their uprisings, same as Bashi-bazouk.

Probably, in Moldova they are mentioned for the first time in early 15th century, in Wallachia 30-40 years earlier. Earlier they are mentioned in the territory of today Greece including islands and Anatolia. This show a corelation between Ottoman interventions into Europe and Gypsy presence here, but probably they were pushed towards Anatolia and Europe by more early Seljuk invasions from Iran direction. This explain and their genetics (1/3 Euro, 1/3 West Asian, 1/3 South Asian) and their language who contain many Persian, Kurdish, Armenian and even Greek words.

[Turul Karom]

I said, i will debate you in hungarian, but you dont want. Btw don't change the subject, i posted many link from various hungarian topics, there were serious debates in hungarian in long comments, didn't you really find any topic in the last 4 years where you could make a comment in hungarian? Hard to belive, but of course you always have cheap excuses why dont you speak hungarian, never in the last 4 years.

It will be a debate in English or nothing because people will not read it, especially at the lengths. Even Hungarian members here speak English. There is no problem allowing the Lingua Franca to remain. You posted links with pathetically small numbers of replies, with OP posts that are just links and responses that are just emojis. The fact you also never posted the viewer count of English Hungarian topics vs. Hungarian-only Hungarian topics is embarrassing for your argument as well.

There is no topic change, I am reminding you that you didn't address the Szekler hypocrisy. You can address it while still being accusative, you know.

This is like showing you a paprika to your face and you insisting there is nothing there. I've translated for people, helped figure things out for people, spoken with people in Hungarian as I have seen fit. I don't know what else to say. I barely posted in 2021 on TA (I think it was 9 or 10 months?). If you find the excuses cheap, then don't bother with me. You're the one who engaged with the haplogroup points in post 92 that were not even directed at you.

English gets more views and participation, period. If you can't deal with it, then that's your problem.

[Blondie]

It will be a debate in English or nothing because people will not read it, especially at the lengths. Even Hungarian members here speak English. There is no problem allowing the Lingua Franca to remain. You posted links with pathetically small numbers of replies, with OP posts that are just links and responses that are just emojis. The fact you also never posted the viewer count of English Hungarian topics vs. Hungarian-only Hungarian topics is embarrassing for your argument as well.

Everyone can read it with google translator, and every single other hungarian members use hungarian many times what you don't use. My prev. links are not pathetic (why do you use such words?, why are you angry? :D), just refuted your lyings that hungarian subforum is dead, and there are no hungarian debates. You are the one and only member in this forum who dont use his native language, never. I remember every post from the hungarian topic in the last 4 years and i have never seen you to use hungarian language. You are hungarian from Hungary right? Why don't you speak hungarian? Dont be shy :rotfl:

[Turul Karom]

Everyone can read it with google translator, and every single other hungarian members use hungarian many times what you don't use. My prev. links are not pathetic (why do you use such words?, why are you angry? :D), just refuted your lyings that hungarian subforum is dead, and there are no hungarian debates. You are the one and only member in this forum who dont use his native language, never. I remember every post from the hungarian topic in the last 4 years and i have never seen you to use hungarian language. You are hungarian from Hungary right? Why don't you speak hungarian? Dont be shy :rotfl:

I have, and that is not the point of the conversation. The "pathetic" was in relation to the size. English threads get several times the interaction of Hungarian-only threads. You keep saying "never," but that is your problem. I have already explained my reasoning. This is an impasse situation. Hence, if you don't want to explain your points further, then I guess that's it.

Would you like to accuse me of something in particular, as you have in the past?

[Mortimer]

Gypsies are invaders, nobody from Europe brought them here like African Blacks in both Americas. For some reason Europeans are taught to tolerate them and to kiss their feet like they have some obligations towards them.

Even if Gypsies were invaders 1000 years ago their descendants wouldnt be today - they would be native born. But they were not invaders more like refugees, invader has a different meaning and usually means that they want to subjugate the native population. Or are colonial american still immigrants even if their ancestors moved 500 years ago to the US?

[Mortimer]

In the Balkans Gypsies are direct product of Ottoman invasion. Ottomans brought them as own servants, blacksmiths, musicians etc. Vast majority of Gypsies in the Balkans in Ottoman time were Muslims as their Turkish masters. When Ottomans are removed part of Balkan Gypsies converted to Christianity, but still significant part of them are Muslims. In the Balkans sometimes Ottomans used Gypsies for crimes against Christian population as revenge for their uprisings, same as Bashi-bazouk.

2. Soldiering as Socialization
The Roma as Serbian combatants were mentioned in
both of the Serbian uprisings organized in the 19th
century (in 1804–1813 and in 1815). For example, the
contemporary Vuk Stefanovic Karadžić wrote that “the
Gypsies had their own commander during the uprising”
(Acković, 2009, p. 91). In addition, the famous Serbian
poet, Sima Milutinović Sarajlija, wrote about the heroism of the Roma combatants. The first Serbian uprising
brought the Roma civil rights recognition, equality before the courts, freedom of religion, respect for customs
and traditions as well as land heritage. However, these
measures disappeared with the collapse of the Serbian
insurgency. The Roma were offered similar rights after
the second Serbian uprising, in 1815. However, it appears that this time the reforms did not bring palpable results. The historian Vladimir Stojančević explained
this as the result of a weaker Roma presence in the
rebel forces and its leadership than was the case in
the previous uprising (Jakšić & Bašić, 2005, pp. 20–21).
The Roma reappeared as Serbian fighters during the
turbulence of 1848. They were part of the forces sent
from the Serbian Principality to Serbs living in Southern
Hungary. Atanasije-Tasa Ivanović from the Serbian town
of Jagodina, the man responsible for tax collection from
the Serbian Roma, was ordered to form an exclusively
Roma outfit:
With 850 skilful Gypsies, along with zurlas and drums,
he continued during the freezing cold in December
1848. There were few of the Jagodina Gypsies, up
to 300, but others from Kragujevac, Pozarevac joined
them along the way, following Tasa’s order, which had
to be executed unconditionally. Sabac, Smederevo
and other places. There were up to 900 of them near
Višnjica on the Danube. It was an unusual and very
colourful army: One group (from Jagodina) wore the
ordinary clothes, with pistols and holsters, curved
sabres; others had more beautiful, colourful garbs
with a scarf around their heads, with large belts, in
which the guns were kept, together with the sharp
knives, a whip with a lead top, and with rifles on their
shoulders; on their feet they wore cavalry boots with
spurs; their banners had various flags. (Cvetić, 1910,
pp. 38–43)
Once across the Danube, fierce fighting ensued with
the Hungarian army near the town of Arad. It has been
recorded that 15 of the Serbian Roma soldiers were killed
in this battle (Cvetić, 1910, pp. 38–43).
In 1883, a standing army with compulsory military
service was introduced in the Kingdom of Serbia. This
was one of many measures aimed at modernizing the
state which had gained its independence in 1878. How
did the Roma fit into this system, which was based on
state bureaucracy and, above all, on the need for accurate addresses and years of birth? At first, the Serbian
authorities were tolerant and aware that a number of
Roma were clearly beyond the army’s reach. For the time
being only those Roma with permanent addresses and
valid documents were called up. However, the state decided to recruit also the so-called ‘wandering Roma.’ In
October 1891, the Serbian War Ministry made a decision
that would significantly affect the way of life of the Roma
in Serbia. It was a direct and dramatic interference of the
state in the traditional way of life of native Roma:
Social Inclusion, 2020, Volume 8, Issue 2, Pages 277–285 278
Many Gypsy vagrants avoid service in the unit and in
the reserve. The reason is that as wanderers they cannot be processed through the census book in any municipality, so they are not recruited as such. In order
to stop the waste of such material for the army, I order that all Gypsy vagrants, from 20 to 30 years of age,
be recruited every year and sent exclusively to the infantry. Recruiting, reviewing and deploying personnel
should be performed on the fifth day, after the other
recruits have already been sent to the infantry. During
the recruitment, there should be an interview of the
Gypsy family in question, regarding the recruit’s most
frequent residence or place of work. When deployed,
the district commanders will report to the battalion
commander concerned, for each recruit, where each
person will reside after serving. Upon dismissal, the
battalion commander will report to the regiment in
question about the trained soldiers, who will now be
assigned to it as reservists.
As every year the infantry command issues a special
call summoning its recruits, the commanders all regiment districts, as soon as they find out that such call
has been published, will order to the administrative
authorities in their area that on that day…all municipal authorities are obliged to bring to the headquarters all the Gypsy vagrants who are found in their district. Of these, all able-bodied persons who have not
yet served in the military and who have not reached
the age of 30 should be listed and trained.
The age of each Gypsy will be evaluated by the doctor attached to the district commander in charge—
unless other documents are to be presented by the
Gypsies themselves. (“Propisi, naredjenja i objašnjenja,” 1891)
It is hard to estimate how efficient this measure was. It
is reasonable to assume that it definitely increased the
numbers within the Serbian army’s contingent. It also
brought about changes in the lives of many Roma. The
long two-year stay in the army acted also as socialization process. Namely, one of the elementary activities in
the army was the literacy course. On the other hand, the
state was trying to transform all Roma into more permanent residents. It is important to note that the infantry
was the only branch of the army reserved for the ‘Roma
wanderers.’ This type of soldiering did not ask for any
particular pre-existing skills unlike the artillery or engineering. And unlike the cavalry, no particular property
(a horse) was needed.
In 1912 the state summoned its Roma reservists to
arms. This was the First Balkan War. Among the hundreds of thousands of Serb soldiers ready to cross the
Serb-Ottoman border, there were many Roma. One of
them, a soldier named Ahmet Ademović, became part of
Serbian military legends. Firstly, his performance at war
shows that many Roma men acted in an exemplary manner in Serbian uniform. His biography also speaks a lot
about patterns used when depicting Roma heroism, and
more broadly, it offers insights into the wider trends in
remembering the actions of Serbian troops during the
1912–1918 period. It is not clear who was the first to
write down the story of Ahmet Ademović. In 1989 the military enthusiast Tomislav Vlahović published a book dedicated to the soldiers who had earned the highest Serbian
military decoration: the Karadjordje Star. Naturally, he
mentioned Ademović’s story as well. By doing so he secured the preservation of the story for future decades.
However, he wrote down two versions of the story which
were circulating at the time.
The first version of these was that Ademović had a
crucial role in the Kumanovo battle of October 1912. This
was the initial and most important clash of the Serbian
and the Ottoman troops in the First Balkan War. The battle did not begin well for the Serbs who did not anticipate that they would run into the core of the Ottoman
troops so soon after entering Ottoman territory. Vlahović
described how, at the most critical moment of the battle,
Ademović gave a trumpet signal for the assault instead
of the retreat—as he had been previously ordered by his
commander. Ademović did so because he estimated, on
his own initiative, that the moment was ripe for counterattack. Ultimately, his decision reversed the battlefield
situation. In the second version, Ademović’s action was
even more audacious. It was claimed that Ademović was
decorated because he actually disguised himself before
the battle. Wearing Ottoman uniform, he went into the
enemy camp where he deceived the enemy by playing
a false signal—a trumpet sign for withdrawal (Vlahović,
1989, pp. 85, 421).
Even with all the shortcomings of the Ottoman
forces in 1912, something like this seems highly unlikely.
Moreover, the idea that a battle involving tens of thousands of soldiers could be decided by a single private reveals a highly romanticised pattern of interpreting past.
There is no doubt that Ademović earned his decoration
in October 1912, but whatever he did, the post war storytellers transformed his exploits into a powerful myth.
Within this myth we see certain roles reserved for the
Serbian Roma. Moreover, these roles corresponded to
their perceived peacetime characteristics. According to
that pattern, the Roma were bold, skilful, cunning and
good in deception. In the eyes of the Serbian storytellers
it appeared as if the features attributed to the Roma, and
which were criminalized in peacetime, suddenly became
desirable at times of war as they provided a critical advantage to the Serbian army.
There were other Roma who secured high military
decorations. One of them was Rustem Sejdić. Again, like
Ademović, he was a unit’s trumpeter. The popular story
described his deed in similar tone to that of Ademović.
Namely, his unit had participated in the famous battle
for the Kajmakcalan heights in 1916, where on his own
initiative, he gave a signal for the critical attack. He also
played false trumpet signals in order to spread confusion
Social Inclusion, 2020, Volume 8, Issue 2, Pages 277–285 279
within the Bulgarian units who were about to launch a
fresh attack (Dimitrijević, 2015). Again, this is the stuff of
legend. One man had shown initiative and had resolved
the colossal carnage. As in the previous case, the Roma
soldier was depicted as bold, artful but manipulative.
The last known Roma who won the Karadjordje Star
was also, like Ademović, from the southern Serbian town
of Leskovac. His name was Amet Ametović. In the popular version of events, he was an expert in throwing
hand grenades (Ivanović, 2016). However, his case study
shows how huge were the differences between facts
and popular accounts that spread after the battle. What
differentiated Ametović’s case from the two previously
mentioned biographies was the fact that Ametović gave
two interviews to the Yugoslav press, providing a sober
account of his fighting days and his accomplishments.
Firstly, he provided details lacking in the previous case
studies—such as the name of his unit, and his commanders ranging from the regimental down to the unit level.
He also explained his specific duties as well the actions
which had earned him the decoration.
Explaining his exploit Ametović did not provide any
breath-taking story. He was a corporal and was responsible for leading patrols on scouting missions. This happened in Western Serbia in the autumn of 1914, near the
border town of Krupanj. Ametović’s unit was involved in
heavy fighting near one notorious position, the Captain’s
Fountain (Kapetanova cesma) close to the Drina River. He
said the following:
We go at night and then we stumble upon the body
of an enemy soldier. I stab him. The stiff human body
does not move….I whisper to my men: Don’t be afraid,
it’s only a corpse. And that was our job during the days
and during the nights….I fought for the King and for
the Fatherland. We all fought heroically….However,
the commander in June 1915 gathered our company
together and read out: Amet Ametović is decorated
with the Karadjordje Star; he then gave me this decoration. (“Jedini Ciganin nosilac Karadjordjeve zvezde
zivi u Leskovcu,” 1936; italics added)
He received his decoration during a pause on the Serbian
front in summer 1915. His story, without any spectacular
actions sounds realistic, underlying war’s brutality. As he
described it, it was a prosaic and merciless business while
the very decoration was the result of continuous activity
by the entire squad.
Roma civilians had often been mentioned in the
memories of contemporaries but their presence in soldiers’ diaries was almost exclusively linked with the darkest sides of the war. Survival for many Roma was extremely difficult even in peacetime, but in wartime it became very precarious. The most vulnerable category of
the population saw the battleground as a place where
its limited survival resources could be replenished.
Journalists following the operations of the Serbian
army near Shkoder recorded the following scene where
the Roma ‘cleaned up’ the battle ground. It took place in
February 1913:
The Serbs had around one thousand dead after their
attack on the Brdica positions. They all remained on
the field bellow the hill and they were still not able
to bury them. Gypsies are usually used for this work,
they gladly do so in the hope of booty. Turkish soldiers
have already deprived the dead of their weapons, but
there are still some left and the Gypsies are back with
shoes, belts, caps, handkerchiefs and underwear. In
their camp, near the bazaar, they later share the loot.
Tonight, four Gypsy women left their camp to wait for
their husbands, and when they spotted them, they
went to meet them. At that moment, a shrapnel, coming over from Shkoder, burst over their heads killing
them all. (“Iz Skadarske epopeje,” 1913)
3. As Soldiers in World War I
In 1914, the Roma were called up again. The Swiss
criminologist who came to Serbia, Rudolph Archibald
Reiss, described a scene he witnessed in the autumn
of 1914 which faithfully exemplifies shared patriotism
and tragedy. It also however illustrates the naivety with
which some Roma approached modern warfare, expecting it to be an extremely brief encounter between two
armies after which things would quickly go back to normal. This happened in the town of Valjevo:
The streets in front of the Sekulić Hotel, which
is on the corner, are full of people and wagons.
Everywhere, next to the walls, sit the middle-aged
peasants who come to report to their units belonging
to the third levy. Waiting to come before the control
commission, they eat and take a sunbathe. Among
them, there are also Gypsies with their bronze faces
like Indians. They are surrounded by their family members, women and children, who carry supplies. One
very old Gypsy woman, with a pipe in her mouth
which is almost solely composed of the tobacco chamber, sits on the doorstep of a house. They tell me
she accompanied her son three days ago, he left with
his regiment, and she is waiting for him to return.
Poor grandmother, you will probably wait in vain! This
world is silent, serious, but in the bright eyes of this
people I see that they are determined to defend their
country’s independence and are not afraid to sacrifice
their lives for this. (Reiss, 1928/1991, p. 11)
There are numerous mentions of the Roma as part of
military music too. The Gypsy band is mentioned as a
standard feature in celebrating military victory. Here, by
focusing on the Roma minority it is also possible to see
various elements of combat culture. One officer, Mladen
Zujović, wrote about the atmosphere after the Battle
of Kolubara, when in 1914 Austro-Hungarian troops had
been expelled from Serbia for the second time.


Serbian Roma Soldiers, 1912–1918 - Cogitatio Presshttps://www.cogitatiopress.com › article › download
PDF
von D Šarenac · 2020 · Zitiert von: 3 — Gypsies had their own commander during the uprising”. (Acković, 2009, p. 91). In addition, the famous Serbian.
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[Mortimer]

In the Balkans Gypsies are direct product of Ottoman invasion. Ottomans brought them as own servants, blacksmiths, musicians etc. Vast majority of Gypsies in the Balkans in Ottoman time were Muslims as their Turkish masters. When Ottomans are removed part of Balkan Gypsies converted to Christianity, but still significant part of them are Muslims. In the Balkans sometimes Ottomans used Gypsies for crimes against Christian population as revenge for their uprisings, same as Bashi-bazouk.

Where did Serbian Gypsies come from?
The first reference to gypsies in Serbia is found in a 1348 document, by which Serbian emperor Stefan Dušan donated some gypsy slaves to a monastery in Prizren. In the 15th century, Romani migrations from Hungary are mentioned. In 1927, a Serbian-Romani humanitarian organization was founded.

[Blondie]

I have, and that is not the point of the conversation. The "pathetic" was in relation to the size. English threads get several times the interaction of Hungarian-only threads. You keep saying "never," but that is your problem. I have already explained my reasoning. This is an impasse situation. Hence, if you don't want to explain your points further, then I guess that's it.

Would you like to accuse me of something in particular, as you have in the past?

Okay so your problem is english is the lingua franca and you dont want to write in hungaria because nobody will understand right? Okay then i have a great idea, we will debate in english and hungarian at same time. Firstly you write your comment in english and after that hungarian, i will do same, so everyone will understand everything, thats okay? Just speak hungarian Turul speak hungarian! :)

[Leto]

Okay so your problem is english is the lingua franca and you dont want to write in hungaria because nobody will understand right? Okay then i have a great idea, we will debate in english and hungarian at same time. Firstly you write your comment in english and after that hungarian, i will do same, so everyone will understand everything, thats okay? Just speak hungarian Turul speak hungarian! :)
Just post in whatever language you want and he will reply if he wants to. But this thread has been seriously derailed with politics, Gypsies, etc.

[Leto]

Where did Serbian Gypsies come from?
The first reference to gypsies in Serbia is found in a 1348 document, by which Serbian emperor Stefan Dušan donated some gypsy slaves to a monastery in Prizren. In the 15th century, Romani migrations from Hungary are mentioned. In 1927, a Serbian-Romani humanitarian organization was founded.
That's what I was talking about. Like it or not, but you cannot deport a population that has been in the region for 600+ years. The truth is the Gypsies don't really have a homeland, they are eternal nomads. Indians don't need them either, they have 100s of millions (!) of their own poor and malnourished.

[Mortimer]

That's what I was talking about. Like it or not, but you cannot deport a population that has been in the region for 600+ years. The truth is the Gypsies don't really have a homeland, they are eternal nomads. Indians don't need them either, they have 100s of millions (!) of their own poor and malnourished.

No one considers even to deport second or third generation immigrants who are native born citizens, but they want to deport gypsies, it was estimated that gypsies are 32 generations in Europe. I read that somewhere.

[Leto]

No one considers even to deport second or third generation immigrants who are native born citizens, but they want to deport gypsies, it was estimated that gypsies are 32 generations in Europe. I read that somewhere.
Encouraging remigration of unassimilable foreign non-whites is one of the core ideas of the Identitarians which I would wholeheartedly support but with the Gypsies they really have nowhere to go. Turkish people have Turkey, the Pakistanis have Pakistan, the Africans have Africa and so on.

[Mortimer]

Encouraging remigration of unassimilable foreign non-whites is one of the core ideas of the Identitarians which I would wholeheartedly support but with the Gypsies they really have nowhere to go. Turkish people have Turkey, the Pakistanis have Pakistan, the Africans have Africa and so on.

I think it is more politically correct and more people do it to say you want to deport gypsies or even kill them, i saw on youtube comments like "hitler did a good job putting the gypos in concentration camps" then about anyone else. But in general you are right about the political ideologies.

[Hektor12]

Turkish people have TurkeyYes, why do you need to prononunce this? What an eastern bloc ex-kommie have to do with Turkish people of western europe? Do you think you have powers to have a word on them?

Congratulations, you got me write this post. People like you shouldnt exist. All problems come from low-IQ backwards people like you.

[Turul Karom]

Okay so your problem is english is the lingua franca and you dont want to write in hungaria because nobody will understand right? Okay then i have a great idea, we will debate in english and hungarian at same time. Firstly you write your comment in english and after that hungarian, i will do same, so everyone will understand everything, thats okay? Just speak hungarian Turul speak hungarian! :)

This sounds fine to post in both, though for longer comments, it could take some time. This sounds like something I would be happy to do, even though it will make posting literally 2x longer.

However, there is the issue that I would like addressed, which is why would I need to do this? You first claim that you can say things better in Hungarian rather than English, so then why would you want to speak to me in both languages at the same time after speaking in exclusively English for so long? It seems like a personal request that you would like from me for some reason to specifically address you in Hungarian now. If you were friendly with me, I would have happily agreed, but as it seems like you wish to make a different point with your insisting, then I am skeptical. I believe that you have accused me of being Turkish before because of politics (as well as other things).

So, how about this:

I will speak in Hungarian and English with you if you very politely ask me, and also give me some reasons as to why you feel like you should be dictating the language that I speak to you in when English clearly has been working fine for everyone. If you had built up friendship and asked me to speak more Hungarian because it was better for you, then there would not have been a problem. However, you decide to be hostile, sarcastic, etc. Ask me as you would someone who you were interested in having an actual conversation with.

The first steps are politeness and honesty. Now ask me with them, and we can continue.

[Blondie]

This sounds fine to post in both, though for longer comments, it could take some time. This sounds like something I would be happy to do, even though it will make posting literally 2x longer.

However, there is the issue that I would like addressed, which is why would I need to do this? You first claim that you can say things better in Hungarian rather than English, so then why would you want to speak to me in both languages at the same time after speaking in exclusively English for so long? It seems like a personal request that you would like from me for some reason to specifically address you in Hungarian now. If you were friendly with me, I would have happily agreed, but as it seems like you wish to make a different point with your insisting, then I am skeptical. I believe that you have accused me of being Turkish before because of politics (as well as other things).

So, how about this:

I will speak in Hungarian and English with you if you very politely ask me, and also give me some reasons as to why you feel like you should be dictating the language that I speak to you in when English clearly has been working fine for everyone. If you had built up friendship and asked me to speak more Hungarian because it was better for you, then there would not have been a problem. However, you decide to be hostile, sarcastic, etc. Ask me as you would someone who you were interested in having an actual conversation with.

The first steps are politeness and honesty. Now ask me with them, and we can continue.

If it's okay for you then why didn't you write it in hungarian too?

[Nanushka]

This sounds fine to post in both, though for longer comments, it could take some time. This sounds like something I would be happy to do, even though it will make posting literally 2x longer.

However, there is the issue that I would like addressed, which is why would I need to do this? You first claim that you can say things better in Hungarian rather than English, so then why would you want to speak to me in both languages at the same time after speaking in exclusively English for so long? It seems like a personal request that you would like from me for some reason to specifically address you in Hungarian now. If you were friendly with me, I would have happily agreed, but as it seems like you wish to make a different point with your insisting, then I am skeptical. I believe that you have accused me of being Turkish before because of politics (as well as other things).

So, how about this:

I will speak in Hungarian and English with you if you very politely ask me, and also give me some reasons as to why you feel like you should be dictating the language that I speak to you in when English clearly has been working fine for everyone. If you had built up friendship and asked me to speak more Hungarian because it was better for you, then there would not have been a problem. However, you decide to be hostile, sarcastic, etc. Ask me as you would someone who you were interested in having an actual conversation with.

The first steps are politeness and honesty. Now ask me with them, and we can continue.

I dont think you will get what you ask for. Writing like a 'certain'person', insisting to talk in Hungarian all the time like 'that person', just like 4 years ago, funny enough this sock appeared some time after Stears was banned, so there are reasons to suspect. Totally insane, telling me this forum belongs to Europeans only (!) trying to dominate everybody and trying to attack and discard all the Eurasians like me and others, thinking she is the authority or something here. What even more ridiculous is he says this thread is only about Hungarians but the threads name is ''Brand new genetic study on the origins of Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors'', all of them are factually my ancestors. We have seen your results, Turkic-shifted, also I have shared almost all my results, all compatible with steppes and proto-Turkics with northern European shift, but we havent seen this person's own yet, which tells a lot

Anyway I dont want to waste time with this, what I want to share is another recent genetic analysis of Hungarian Conquerors that you have shared with me some
time ago, maybe you even shared here too but dont remember, with a smaller sample group from Tisza region. The results are also very interesting:

''We compared our results with public databases and discovered that the Hungarian Conquerors originated from three distant territories of the Eurasian steppes, where different ethnicities joined them: Lake Baikal-Altai Mountains (Huns/Turkic peoples), Western Siberia-Southern Urals (Finno-Ugric peoples), and the Black Sea-Northern Caucasus (Caucasian and Eastern European peoples). As such, the ancient Hungarians conquered their homeland as an alliance of tribes, and they were the genetic relatives of Asiatic Huns, Finno-Ugric peoples, Caucasian peoples, and Slavs from the Eastern European steppes.''

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

[Turul Karom]

If it's okay for you then why didn't you write it in hungarian too?

Why would I? You have been given the criteria to speak Hungarian with me if you want me to invest more time in writing a conversation twice:

I will speak in Hungarian and English with you if you very politely ask me, and also give me some reasons as to why you feel like you should be dictating the language that I speak to you in when English clearly has been working fine for everyone. If you had built up friendship and asked me to speak more Hungarian because it was better for you, then there would not have been a problem. However, you decide to be hostile, sarcastic, etc. Ask me as you would someone who you were interested in having an actual conversation with.

The first steps are politeness and honesty. Now ask me with them, and we can continue.


I dont think you will get what you ask for. Writing like a 'certain'person', insisting to talk in Hungarian all the time like 'that person', just like 4 years ago, funny enough this sock appeared some time after Stears was banned, so there are reasons to suspect. Totally insane, telling me this forum belongs to Europeans only (!) trying to dominate everybody and trying to attack and discard all the Eurasians like me and others, thinking she is the authority or something here. What even more ridiculous is he says this thread is only about Hungarians but the threads name is ''Brand new genetic study on the origins of Huns, Avars and Hungarian Conquerors'', all of them are factually my ancestors. We have seen your results, Turkic-shifted, also I have shared almost all my results, all compatible with steppes and proto-Turkics with northern European shift, but we havent seen this person's own yet, which tells a lot

Anyway I dont want to waste time with this, what I want to share is another recent genetic analysis of Hungarian Conquerors that you have shared with me some
time ago, maybe you even shared here too but dont remember, with a smaller sample group from Tisza region. The results are also very interesting:

''We compared our results with public databases and discovered that the Hungarian Conquerors originated from three distant territories of the Eurasian steppes, where different ethnicities joined them: Lake Baikal-Altai Mountains (Huns/Turkic peoples), Western Siberia-Southern Urals (Finno-Ugric peoples), and the Black Sea-Northern Caucasus (Caucasian and Eastern European peoples). As such, the ancient Hungarians conquered their homeland as an alliance of tribes, and they were the genetic relatives of Asiatic Huns, Finno-Ugric peoples, Caucasian peoples, and Slavs from the Eastern European steppes.''

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

A great genetic study, indeed. Thank you for your perspective and input by including this highly-relevant quote. I would also like to point out that there is mixing with Avar populations from present-day Dagestan:

https://i.ibb.co/myTmN7Q/Screenshot-2022-02-07-at-14-39-31-Genetic-analysis-of-male-Hungarian-Conquerors-European-and-Asian-p.png (https://ibb.co/C98qPFx)

[Blondie]

I dont think you will get what you ask for. Writing like a 'certain'person', insisting to talk in Hungarian all the time like 'that person', just like 4 years ago, funny enough this sock appeared some time after Stears was banned, so there are reasons to suspect. Totally insane, telling me this forum belongs to Europeans only (!) trying to dominate everybody and trying to attack and discard all the Eurasians like me and others, thinking she is the authority or something here.

If you think i'm Stears that you are really mentally retarded :rotfl: I reported Stears when he came back 3 years ago just saying...
You are the real sock account, hard to belive that you have only 575 post in the last 5 years, and if we see the past almost every single turkish user had tons of account. This is also interesting that you appeared again when a pedo acc started to flooding this forum with such pics and i remember you started to attack everyone including other turkish users like Kivan and Itilvolga.
And if you are on european forum as non european, you should stop the making anti-european posts, just thats all. I hope its not difficult to your arabic brain.

[Jana]

Blondie is not Stears. Lol. Please, be resonable.

[Hektor12]

you started to attack everyone including other turkish users like Kivan and Itilvolga.

I think she or he also attacked me. Otherwise why would a random Turkish_Trabzon send me this PM out of nothing?

https://i.ibb.co/ZmfJhWC/1.jpg

In case anybody is interested in its translation.. (google)


dear dog

boy i'm your cunt look lame
you're writing things with a dick shovel handicapped handicapped in this forum fuck my fuck baby how old are you to get high with me
You consider yourself equal to balls, unless there is a difference of at least 10 years between us.
save the reel job for your peers, look after your cunt
I'm saving them wandering around Büşra, I hear the news
I'm not old enough for that girl, she's not your equal, who are you?
If you are determined to deal with me, keep eating your ass.
No, if you're going to act like a man, stop, don't let your ass and head play separately.
well fuck the forum, its dna and its phenotype from head to toe, fuck bastards, will you be a man for 2 minutes?
Do not think that you are putting uncircumcised infidels behind you and putting pressure on the Turks.
your forum goes through your internet keyboard i will fuck your ass if i come there
I think you have never eaten a cock from Trabzon, we are famous in this country.
free to try the ball of my pussy, you hodri challenge, keep going, your ass is eating

[Blondie]

I think she or he also attacked me. Otherwise why would a random Turkish_Trabzon send me this PM out of nothing?

https://i.ibb.co/ZmfJhWC/1.jpg

In case anybody is interested in its translation.. (google)


dear dog

boy i'm your cunt look lame
you're writing things with a dick shovel handicapped handicapped in this forum fuck my fuck baby how old are you to get high with me
You consider yourself equal to balls, unless there is a difference of at least 10 years between us.
save the reel job for your peers, look after your cunt
I'm saving them wandering around Büşra, I hear the news
I'm not old enough for that girl, she's not your equal, who are you?
If you are determined to deal with me, keep eating your ass.
No, if you're going to act like a man, stop, don't let your ass and head play separately.
well fuck the forum, its dna and its phenotype from head to toe, fuck bastards, will you be a man for 2 minutes?
Do not think that you are putting uncircumcised infidels behind you and putting pressure on the Turks.
your forum goes through your internet keyboard i will fuck your ass if i come there
I think you have never eaten a cock from Trabzon, we are famous in this country.
free to try the ball of my pussy, you hodri challenge, keep going, your ass is eating


Yes this is Busra's acc. Its impossible that she/he has only 575 comment in the last 5 years. Obviously she/he has several account, like others already said it earlier. When Busra attacked Itilvolga and Kivan they said this user has several acc and spreaded lies in pm, very sneakly behaviour. Now im pretty sure that this insane "girl" is behind the pedo attacks on forum.
I also got pm from him:

https://i.imgur.com/uwYpZDI.jpg

[Jana]

Yes this is Busra's acc. Its impossible that she/he has only 575 comment in the last 5 years. Obviously she/he has several account, like others already said it earlier. When Busra attacked Itilvolga and Kivan they said this user has several acc and spreaded lies in pm, very sneakly behaviour. Now im pretty sure that this insane "girl" is behind the pedo attacks on forum.
I also got pm from him:

https://i.imgur.com/uwYpZDI.jpg

LOL xD xD xD

[Nanushka]

If you think i'm Stears that you are really mentally retarded :rotfl: I reported Stears when he came back 3 years ago just saying...
You are the real sock account, hard to belive that you have only 575 post in the last 5 years, and if we see the past almost every single turkish user had tons of account. This is also interesting that you appeared again when a pedo acc started to flooding this forum with such pics and i remember you started to attack everyone including other turkish users like Kivan and Itilvolga.
And if you are on european forum as non european, you should stop the making anti-european posts, just thats all. I hope its not difficult to your arabic brain.

and you stick it in your gypsy brain that it is your rough posts that are non-european, you made it personal so you get what you deserve. You cant prove anything trying to show me as if I am someone else because everybody here knows who I am including Loki, right from the beginning. I am not posting constantly cause I am too busy with many other things irl, coming here to share academic facts and articles only, and talking about taxonomy sometimes, not everybody is jobless trolls spreading zillions of nonsense 7/24 like you. I am a real person who is in touch outside TA with some people from here already, either messaging or skypeing, they know who I am so I dont need approval of socks


I think she or he also attacked me. Otherwise why would a random Turkish_Trabzon send me this PM out of nothing?

https://i.ibb.co/ZmfJhWC/1.jpg

In case anybody is interested in its translation.. (google)


You are not someone I take seriously but how could you two share those pms here openly, it must be a reason to be banned without consent of the counterpart and what you try to do is childish and pathetic ahah anyways its mods' decision. Wait until Mitrjeyd is here, he will decide what he will do

oh but I cant help asking. what kind of honourless troll are you? You get mad at Leto for calling you brown but these Stearsoline and blondie are calling you and Turkish people brown all the time and humiliating you all, still you are licking their feet. Why? isnt it discrimination lol? My, why are some Turkish posters here are just losers and have no self-respect? Fortunately not all Turkish people are like that, the real Turks ofc, the ones with real noble Turk ancestry, they always show themselves with their pride, decent behaviour and phenotype, nothing like a mongrel trying to hunt in forums

[Leto]

You get mad at Leto for calling you brown but these Stearsoline and blondie are calling you and Turkish people brown all the time and humiliating you all, still you are licking their feet.
Excuse me but I didn't say anything like that. Never called that user "brown" because I've never even seen his face. I do not talk to/engage with that guy at all for my own reasons and to be honest that post of mine did not even have any racism (whatever it means) since I simply said the Gypsies, unlike other nations, do not have a country to go to. Had I said Nigeria, Afghanistan or Russia instead of Turkey, that individual wouldn't have batted an eye.

[Mejgusu]

....

I don't think I have Turkey.


All problems come from low-IQ backwards people like you.

You are quoting a guy in your signature who is constantly insulting(and is posting even worse things) about Turks. You can be an atheist, its ok but I wouldn't eat the kebap of people who don't wash their hands, although I love every kind of kebap.

Btw, this weirdo sent weird messages to me too. Sometimes I don't know whether busra is believing herself or just trolls here, but I hope she knows that her postings aren't proving sanity. I am not sure whether it is true but I heard she is responsible for the ban of ratcat one of the most decent Turkish user which this forum ever had, he was an enrichment for the dodecad threads which were once the main reason why I am here in this forum. Therefore I would say that no one should take her seriously and if she attacks you, respond with fun, not with seriousness.

[Hektor12]

coming here to share academic facts and articles only

https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/583089f4737a8e61abb0186b/3x


how could you two share those pms here openly
Its a faulty PM, i already repoorted this PM, theres nothing private in it its sole f and c words. Its interesting why do you defend him.


You get mad at Leto for calling you brownHe has never called me brown and i wouldnt care anyways. I dont care if somebody calls me something.


these Stearsoline and blondie are calling you and Turkish people brown all the time and humiliating you all, still you are licking their feet. Why? isnt it discrimination lol?
I have never seen them calling me or Tukish people brown honestly. I wouldnt mind though, its their opinion. Do they see themselves in a position that they can open their mouths for guest workers in Germany like Leto? No because they arent low IQ. Oliña is nice person that i know since i was new member, i like her and she knows me better than everybody else in this forum, shes special for me. Cutie is nice girl who has a good hearth, she told me long time ago that she wont write negative things about Turks and i see that shes loyal to her promise.


the real Turks ofc, the ones with real noble Turk ancestryAre you one of them? (:


Had I said Nigeria, Afghanistan or Russia instead of Turkey, that individual wouldn't have batted an eye.
But you didnt say Nigeria, Afghanistan or Russia. You said Turkey because you see yourself in a magnificent place that you can open your mouth about guest workers of Germany, something you have absolutely nothing to do.


You are quoting a guy in your signature who is constantly insulting(and is posting even worse things) about Turks.
Does he say the truth? This is important. I dont care about insulting or racism against Turks. I only have problems with idiots. You can talk with a racist but you cant talk with an idiot.


she is responsible for the ban of ratcat
In an indirect way but yeah we can say that she or he is responsible. Shes also responsible for Kivan and itilvolga apla bans. Probably the greatest achievement in her/his life.

[Blondie]

Cutie is nice girl who has a good hearth, she told me long time ago that she wont write negative things about Turks and i see that shes loyal to her promise.

Yes we have taked about it long time ago, and i didn't even write anything in the turkish threads, because i have nothing against them. Actually i had good relationship with Kivan and Itilvolga although me and Itilvolga had a little confrontation because of a misunderstanding, but she was a decent user and i think we were friends, i lobbied to unban them when they got ban. But you are also decent user just like Marmara or there was a turkish guy named "Ice" he was aso cool face.