Caucasus mountain Jews (Juhuro) 23andMe results

[rothaer]

Maybe interesting: the 23andMe results of someone stated to be a Caucasus mountain Jew (Juhuro) at reddit:

https://i.imgur.com/Jk78590.jpg

From German Wikipedia article Bergjuden (translated):

When German troops occupied the northern Caucasus during the Second World War at the end of 1942 and found several thousand mountain Jews there, there were discussions among Nazi authorities (including Theodor Oberländer) about the question of whether this minority, which they had hardly known until then, was to be classified as Jewish according to confession or also according to racial criteria. Several hundred mountain Jews were murdered until the Germans withdrew in 1943. On 19 August and 20 September 1942, for example, 850 mountain Jews were murdered near Mosdok (Bogdanovka and Menshinskoye kolkhozes); another 1,000 fell into the hands of the Germans in Nalchik in October 1942, forced to wear the Jewish star and to do forced labour.[7] The majority, however, were spared the planned extermination. However, most of the Mountain Jews lived in South Dagestan and North Azerbaijan, regions that the Wehrmacht had not reached.

Well, another "experts' " measure...

However, does this support the thought that today's Jews may be mainly converts of people indigenous to non-Palestinian (non-Judaean) areas?

[rothaer]

I also wonder about that Eastern European proportion, whether that may be pre-Russian. Likely not, I guess.

[Leto]

I also wonder about that Eastern European proportion, whether that may be pre-Russian. Likely not, I guess.
He cannot be a full Bergjude. Obviously one quarter Russian, possibly Cossack. They are otherwise a completely West Asiatic population, not European at all. Basically Persian Jews plus some additional Caucasian.

[rothaer]

He cannot be a full Bergjude. Obviously one quarter Russian, possibly Cossack. They are otherwise a completely West Asiatic population, not European at all. Basically Persian Jews plus some additional Caucasian.

That makes sense.

And btw. that EE seems not to be brand new to that area after "Dagestan Republic" shows up as the frist region for that EE(!).

[Targum]

Sarit Hadad and Omer Adam; both contemporary Israeli musical artists of Mountain Jewish background:

https://open.spotify.com/artist/39jFFncu6W0phhYK16Dp9g

https://open.spotify.com/artist/1IAEef07H0fd9aA8aUHUlL

[Targum]

He cannot be a full Bergjude. Obviously one quarter Russian, possibly Cossack. They are otherwise a completely West Asiatic population, not European at all. Basically Persian Jews plus some additional Caucasian.

Mountain Jews have Ashkenazi and Romaniote admixture as well, due to interfaces in Russia/USSR and Black Sea

[Ajeje Brazorf]

However, does this support the thought that today's Jews may be mainly converts of people indigenous to non-Palestinian (non-Judaean) areas?

There is a Mountain_Jew average on Global25, I don't know how representative it can be of that group today (many may have mixed with non-Jews) etc. However, they show a greater shift toward the Levant and less CHG than the Assyrians, who are the most related group.

https://i.imgur.com/Iwu2HXO.png

https://i.imgur.com/hyXq75v.png

[Sterling Archer]

Mountain Jews have Ashkenazi and Romaniote admixture as well, due to interfaces in Russia/USSR and Black Sea

Ashkenazi Jews are fairly late addition to Caucasus. Any admixture with them would be recent.
True mountain Jews do not have this euro admixture. We have plenty of mountain Jew sample from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and they plot like other Levantin people like Assyrians and to some degree, Armenians. They don't have anything remotely like this guy here.
This particular individual here is probably quarter Russian.

[RogueState]

They seem to be Half Caucasus Half Levantine

[rothaer]

There is a Mountain_Jew average on Global25, I don't know how representative it can be of that group today (many may have mixed with non-Jews) etc. However, they show a greater shift toward the Levant and less CHG than the Assyrians, who are the most related group.

https://i.imgur.com/Iwu2HXO.png

https://i.imgur.com/hyXq75v.png

Surprising that CHG is lower than Assyrians have.

[rothaer]

Ashkenazi Jews are fairly late addition to Caucasus. Any admixture with them would be recent.
True mountain Jews do not have this euro admixture. We have plenty of mountain Jew sample from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and they plot like other Levantin people like Assyrians and to some degree, Armenians. They don't have anything remotely like this guy here.
This particular individual here is probably quarter Russian.

I've nothing to compare with, but if you have seen such results that will be applicable.

As for the AJ contribution: Sephards do regularly have some 15% AJ and it's hard to determine what exactly is the origin as there also could be some parts in Sephards that contributed to later AJ and that now gets labeled AJ. Is such a thing possible for mountain Jews too?
If there is a quarter Russian in that testee, do you consider it by chance that this Russian then happened to be 1/4 or 1/5 AJ?

[Pine]

None of you like to read. He said he wasn't fully Mountain Jewish. They barely score any EE or AJ on 23andMe. EE is rare and tiny when it appears. AJ is typically 0-3%.

[Pine]

Mountain Jews have Ashkenazi and Romaniote admixture as well, due to interfaces in Russia/USSR and Black Sea

Romaniote, yes and it's very old. Ashkenazi admixture is typically known to them, as it's at a grandparent/great grandparent level.

[Sterling Archer]

I've nothing to compare with, but if you have seen such results that will be applicable.


Mountain Jews in Azerbaijan and Dagestan have lived in a relative sheltered state, in a predominantly rural places. They have been living in this conditions for centuries. Authentic results from mountainous Azerbaijan (Ismayilli, Quba) and Dagestan show that they plot similar to Assyrians. They have next to no European like admixture. They are very different from surrounding population like Azerbaijanis and Lezgin.


As for the AJ contribution: Sephards do regularly have some 15% AJ and it's hard to determine what exactly is the origin as there also could be some parts in Sephards that contributed to later AJ and that now gets labeled AJ. Is such a thing possible for mountain Jews too?
Maybe? But I don't know how that would happen due to the way MJ have been living. Any admixture would have to be recent.



If there is a quarter Russian in that testee, do you consider it by chance that this Russian then happened to be 1/4 or 1/5 AJ?
This might be the case, and again, would suggest a relatively recent admixture. Nothing at all typical.
In fact, I think Lucas posted some Mountain Jewish samples from Dagestan, and one person was 25% Russian.

[Sterling Archer]

Romaniote, yes and it's very old. Ashkenazi admixture is typically known to them, as it's at a grandparent/great grandparent level.

Yes, this is very possible. A recent phenomena as is Ashkenazi and Azerbaijani mix, which is also something that happened in the last few generations.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Surprising that CHG is lower than Assyrians have.

Georgian Jews have absorbed more local admixture than the Mountain_Jew average.

https://i.imgur.com/QnjFYnN.png

All Jewish groups have a Levantine heritage that characterizes them, on Global25 the only 2 averages that are exceptions are Yemenite_Jew and Ethiopian_Jew, who appear to be local people converted to Judaism.

Yemenite Jews


Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 0.0125% / 0.01254388 | R2P
78.3 Yemenite_Ma'rib
21.7 EmiratiA

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 0.0107% / 0.01074640 | R3P
52.5 Yemenite_Ma'rib
43.5 Saudi
4.0 Georgian_Imer

Ethiopian Jews


Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 0.0083% / 0.00828751 | R2P
93.1 Ethiopian_Amhara
6.9 Rendille

Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 0.0082% / 0.00816351 | R3P
81.4 Ethiopian_Amhara
11.5 Ethiopian_Afar
7.1 Rendille

[Ajeje Brazorf]

PCA with all Jewish populations (a pair of reading glasses is recommended)

https://i.imgur.com/5vGtoeZ.png

[Pine]

Georgian Jews have absorbed more local admixture than the Mountain_Jew average.

https://i.imgur.com/QnjFYnN.png

All Jewish groups have a Levantine heritage that characterizes them, on Global25 the only 2 averages that are exceptions are Yemenite_Jew and Ethiopian_Jew, who appear to be local people converted to Judaism.

Yemenite Jews


Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 0.0125% / 0.01254388 | R2P
78.3 Yemenite_Ma'rib
21.7 EmiratiA

Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 0.0107% / 0.01074640 | R3P
52.5 Yemenite_Ma'rib
43.5 Saudi
4.0 Georgian_Imer

Ethiopian Jews


Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 0.0083% / 0.00828751 | R2P
93.1 Ethiopian_Amhara
6.9 Rendille

Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 0.0082% / 0.00816351 | R3P
81.4 Ethiopian_Amhara
11.5 Ethiopian_Afar
7.1 Rendille

The Y-DNA of Yemenite Jews indicates that they can't be 100% convert. The hard part is figuring out what's the best proxy for their local admixture.

[Targum]

Ashkenazi Jews are fairly late addition to Caucasus. Any admixture with them would be recent.
True mountain Jews do not have this euro admixture. We have plenty of mountain Jew sample from Dagestan and Azerbaijan and they plot like other Levantin people like Assyrians and to some degree, Armenians. They don't have anything remotely like this guy here.
This particular individual here is probably quarter Russian.
Respectfully partially disagree. Not sure if you read Hebrew; Ashkenazi/Mountain Jew interactions long predate Soviet times; Hebrew שאלות ותשובות so-called Responsa literature is quite commonplace for hundreds of years.

[Targum]

I've nothing to compare with, but if you have seen such results that will be applicable.

As for the AJ contribution: Sephards do regularly have some 15% AJ and it's hard to determine what exactly is the origin as there also could be some parts in Sephards that contributed to later AJ and that now gets labeled AJ. Is such a thing possible for mountain Jews too?
If there is a quarter Russian in that testee, do you consider it by chance that this Russian then happened to be 1/4 or 1/5 AJ?

Mouintain Jews are Mizrahhim, (Bavel origin) not Sefaradim, in the original narrow sense of Jews who lived in Iberia/Maghreb at one time. The Mizrahhi qehillot (communities) like Bavel (Iraq), Iran, Bukhara, Afghanistan, India, China all are extensions of Yehudey Bavel-Babylonian Jews. That is the definition of Mizrahhim. They are not part of the Western Jewish cluster which includes Sefaradim, Ashkenazim, North African non-Sefaradi Jews, Syrian Jews, Italqim and Romaniote. Similarly, They are not Teimonim (Yemenite Jews), the third and smallest of the major Diaspora divisions, or Jewish sub-ethnicities. Mountain Jews, as has been pointed out by me and others, started out as Persian Jews, as the Persian world once comprised a much larger area than Iran of today.

[Lucas]

Mouintain Jews are Mizrahhim, (Bavel origin) not Sefaradim, in the original narrow sense of Jews who lived in Iberia/Maghreb at one time. The Mizrahhi qehillot (communities) like Bavel (Iraq), Iran, Bukhara, Afghanistan, India, China all are extensions of Yehudey Bavel-Babylonian Jews. That is the definition of Mizrahhim. They are not part of the Western Jewish cluster which includes Sefaradim, Ashkenazim, North African non-Sefaradi Jews, Syrian Jews, Italqim and Romaniote. Similarly, They are not Teimonim (Yemenite Jews), the third and smallest of the major Diaspora divisions, or Jewish sub-ethnicities. Mountain Jews, as has been pointed out by me and others, started out as Persian Jews, as the Persian world once comprised a much larger area than Iran of today.

Interesting. If Syrian Jews aren't Mizrahim they are extension of Sephardim from Ottoman times?

[gixajo]

https://i.imgur.com/Iwu2HXO.png

]

That model sources could be these ones?:


CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Iran_Neolithic,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
EEF,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Middle_East,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
ANE,0.0974326,-0.045902,0.0815336,0.199615,-0.0809998,0.0440646,-0.0470022,-0.0560286,-0.0307604,-0.0864892,0.0276382,-0.0102808,0.0231612,-0.066059,0.0222038,0.0210552,-0.0123866,-0.0012666,-0.0016088,0.0008502,-0.0305214,0.0122664,0.0189556,0.0038558,-0.0073526

[Ajeje Brazorf]

That model sources could be these ones?

These are the ones, usually to make models I exclude the ones after MIDDLE_EAST (Yemenite_Mahra:Y312). I also include BALTIC_BA (Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207), but not always, to better capture Eastern European drift.


Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoan_North-4,-0.619198,0.062963,0.023759,0.027455,0.000615,-0.002789,0.274022,-0.217376,0.022089,0.010387,0.007795,-0.08977,-0.034043,0.016652,0.03393,-0.045346,0.066365,0.58036,-0.194958,0.010005,-0.077738,-0.005564,0.025512,-0.000482,0.003353
Papuan:HGDP00552,-0.046667,-0.24068,-0.264362,0.318803,0.213578,-0.52292,-0.0047,0.003692,-0.047654,-0.010934,-0.021922,0.003297,0.003271,-0.00055,-0.001493,-0.000796,-0.005215,-0.000507,0.003268,-0.003502,-0.001248,0.003462,0.000493,-0.000482,0.010179
Surui:HGDP00843,0.053497,-0.311768,0.11653,0.11079,-0.119407,-0.026216,-0.33489,-0.398983,-0.019839,-0.022962,0.006496,-0.007943,0.005798,0.039635,-0.016151,0.000133,0.009127,-0.00266,-0.006788,0.001,-0.004118,0.012365,-0.010599,-0.00976,-0.007185
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15,0.126344,0.11272 4,0.204022,0.208982,0.175417,0.063029,0.014806,0.0 46152,0.113715,0.024602,-0.019162,-0.016635,0.020664,-0.002064,0.06691,0.067753,-0.004824,0.008108,-0.007039,0.067532,0.120787,0.014838,-0.058789,-0.201233,0.017962
Mbuti:S_Mbuti-2.DG,-0.648792,0.054839,0.026398,0.039729,-0.001539,0.011435,0.376017,-0.295834,0.01943,0.030433,-0.014128,0.220903,0.132159,0.004954,0.010586,0.003 05,-0.000913,-0.056883,0.019986,0.005378,0.004742,-0.001113,0.001725,0.003856,0.001916
Ami:NA13615,0.023903,-0.444802,-0.048649,-0.074613,0.14772,0.069723,0,-0.005077,-0.025565,-0.020046,0.049041,0.006444,-0.01219,-0.007844,0.006243,0.006762,0.006258,0.005194,0.007 29,-0.027263,0.008485,-0.029306,0.001356,-0.004338,-0.04778
Even:even2682,0.042115,-0.442771,0.144814,-0.019057,-0.142488,-0.086735,0.028201,0.038306,0.035587,0.024966,0.062 357,0.010041,-0.011596,0.003303,-0.026058,-0.017104,-0.000522,0.017483,0.040726,0.018009,0.058896,-0.062445,0.005916,0.014098,0.026824
Esan_Nigeria:HG03100,-0.633995,0.061947,0.023381,0.010659,0.000615,0.011 156,-0.050292,0.04869,-0.051949,0.033896,0.010393,-0.009292,0.023934,0.006193,0.013708,-0.001591,0.00352,0.004561,0.00264,-0.003252,0.009234,0.000371,-0.002218,0.002169,-0.002155
MAR_Taforalt:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
ROU_N:I2533,0.126344,0.187873,0.010936,-0.102068,0.060319,-0.055778,0.003055,-0.005769,0.044586,0.095492,0.001299,0.012589,-0.027948,-0.001376,-0.050488,-0.006762,0.034421,-0.000507,0.008547,-0.013381,-0.014974,0.007048,-0.003944,0.005904,-0.011137
Paniya:PY-6,0.012521,-0.169593,-0.188183,0.142444,-0.049548,0.057173,-0.008225,0.017538,0.096944,0.059409,0.008931,0.001 049,-0.002527,0.018579,-0.025651,-0.03739,0.005737,0.002154,0.001006,0.031015,0.0061 14,0.01422,-0.012078,0.00482,-0.008263
Biaka:HGDP00454,-0.641962,0.06804,0.028284,0.038114,0.001846,0.0086 46,0.167798,-0.135687,-0.017794,0.036083,0.016726,-0.160957,-0.05218,-0.00578,0.00475,-0.005038,0.004042,-0.036866,0.014832,-0.001251,0.004243,-0.000989,-0.003081,-0.000482,-0.004431
RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3,0.093335,-0.01828,0.083344,0.231592,-0.091402,0.042949,-0.063688,-0.078228,-0.035383,-0.096221,0.047417,-0.010491,0.023637,-0.074454,0.020358,0.02254,-0.012908,0.003801,-0.003394,0.000625,-0.03706,0.015209,0.013927,0.009278,-0.005149
Sudanese:SUDANESE7,-0.571392,0.046714,-0.007165,-0.007429,-0.005232,-0.002789,-0.00799,0.018922,0.0904,-0.108977,-0.018512,0.020831,-0.047125,0.000688,0.013165,-0.023734,0.021644,-0.012035,0.026145,-0.023261,-0.000998,0.004822,-0.000986,-0.001687,0.003712
Qiang_Danba:DBA01,0.020488,-0.438709,0.006034,-0.05168,0.023081,0.006693,0.004935,0.001154,-0.009613,0.012028,-0.097595,-0.005095,0.009068,-0.010184,-0.012351,-0.001591,0.000782,-0.00152,-0.015838,0.004502,0.005116,0.033015,0.017008,-0.006868,0.037721
Yakut:455_A,0.044391,-0.378792,0.112759,-0.023579,-0.107097,-0.071954,0.029141,0.034845,0.026384,0.024602,0.034 914,0.015586,-0.025867,0.074454,0.045738,0.024927,0.001565,-0.01761,-0.042863,-0.033641,0.000624,0.039198,0.011092,-0.001325,-0.019759
Ket:584_R01C01,0.079676,-0.247789,0.126335,0.052326,-0.107097,-0.029562,0.00188,0.012461,0.002863,-0.028976,0.067878,0.00045,0.020515,-0.10886,-0.024837,-0.014187,0.005998,0.003927,0.014078,-0.002626,-0.028949,0.052676,0.069265,-0.029643,-0.020238
Yemenite_Mahra:Y312,0.061464,0.133034,-0.065996,-0.128555,-0.006155,-0.054663,-0.015981,-0.020307,0.065857,-0.005285,0.017213,-0.027875,0.072844,0.008945,0.015472,0.037258,-0.012126,0.003041,-0.005279,0.026888,0.012353,0.022876,-0.008997,0,-0.006945
Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.12491,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
JPN_Nagabaka_historic:NAG038,0.014797,-0.343249,-0.050157,0.013566,0.038469,0.008925,-0.004935,-0.002077,0.022089,0.02442,-0.051315,-0.004496,0.00996,-0.016377,-0.021851,-0.013524,0.006258,0.014189,0.016215,-0.012506,0.064511,-0.052305,0.009737,0.006025,-0.112206
MYS_LN:Ma912,0,-0.395041,-0.084098,-0.034561,0.154183,0.068049,-0.007285,-0.010615,-0.005522,-0.018224,0.090938,0.017834,-0.015163,0.006331,0.006922,-0.001061,-0.001695,-0.006841,-0.003394,0.019259,-0.01697,0.012984,-0.009737,0.00723,0.048379
CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA_o:91KLM2,0.022765,-0.468159,0.093149,-0.044251,-0.088632,-0.05271,0.013866,0.025614,0.006749,0.020046,-0.039948,0.001499,-0.006244,0.021882,0.003122,-0.002917,0.001434,-0.003674,0.01081,0.034016,-0.029822,-0.029306,-0.050408,-0.005784,-0.003832
Mari:mari5,0.097888,-0.04773,0.092395,0.060078,-0.028005,0.001394,0.012456,0.019153,-0.006136,-0.041185,0.026307,-0.019483,0.041476,-0.044177,-0.037866,-0.016971,0.000913,-0.008361,-0.037081,-0.029889,0.01959,0.003957,-0.055831,0.010363,-0.003712

[Targum]

Interesting. If Syrian Jews aren't Mizrahim they are extension of Sephardim from Ottoman times?

No, but they are separate amalgam of Land-of-Israel (like Peqi'in Jews), Sefaradi, Italqi, Romaniote and Mizrahhi/Mesopotamian

[Pine]

Respectfully partially disagree. Not sure if you read Hebrew; Ashkenazi/Mountain Jew interactions long predate Soviet times; Hebrew שאלות ותשובות so-called Responsa literature is quite commonplace for hundreds of years.

Does said literature speak of Ashkenazi-Mountain marriages? If so, how often?