Do Poles have some Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry?

[Cernunnos]

Until World War II and the Holocaust, the Jews in Europe mostly lived in Eastern Europe in particular in Poland and the former USSR states. Poland was then famous for it's strong Jewish community, to the point where some towns and areas reaching a Jewish majority. For centuries, Poland was home to the largest and most significant Ashkenazi Jewish community in the world, so I wonder if that didn't impact the genetics of the Slavic Polish majority during all that time.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/291001456079929344/938198250777903124/unknown.png?width=323&height=472

G25 suggests so, but it just might be confusing some common ancestral elements of both ashkenazis and poles.

[cass]

Note that Ashkenazi were mostly European and partly Polish so the estimation for Poles in the opposite direction could be confusing.
But yes there was some conversion of Jews. One particularly big ca. 40.000 so called Frankists in Podolia (Ukraine) late 18c.

Overall it is genetically elusive.
https://i.ibb.co/VwZr4CJ/scale-2400.jpg (https://ibb.co/CPZNG9m)

[Jana]

Yes. Ethnic Poles often score trace levels of AJ ancestry (0.1-2%). You can see that very well especially at 23andme.

[Tooting Carmen]

Quite likely - Poland was effectively the main centre for European Jewry for a long time, and a good number would have intermarried. (By contrast, nowadays at least 95% of the Polish population is composed of ethnic Poles, making it one of the more relatively homogeneous countries in Europe).

[rothaer]

(...) I wonder if that didn't impact the genetics of the Slavic Polish majority during all that time. (...)

G25 suggests so, but it just might be confusing some common ancestral elements of both ashkenazis and poles.

From my observation at 23andMe a majority of Poles (70%?) do have a small contribution (kind of 0.1% - 2.5%), but notably smaller than what you display in that model and it's regularly beneath 1.0%. As an average of all Poles I'd guess something like 0.3%.

Maybe Roy or Tomenable can enlight by having a look at full Polish matches.

[cass]

Quite likely - Poland was effectively the main centre for European Jewry for a long time, and a good number would have intermarried. (By contrast, nowadays at least 95% of the Polish population is composed of ethnic Poles, making it one of the more relatively homogeneous countries in Europe).

Intermarriages were not popular or rather almost impossible due to difference of religion (and language) until 20c. It was rather limited conversion of Polonized families into Christian society and to some degree informal relationships the other way.
Its well visible in Ashkenazi DNA. They are much more similar to Italians and possibly Rhineland then Poles. Although previous intermixtures appeared 800y and 600y earlier.

[Jased]

maybe you are a right candiate for this thread.


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?359032-Mexico-or-Spain-which-country-has-more-Jewish-contribution&p=7424437#post7424437

[Peterski]

What about Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians - do they also have small AJ admixtures?

[Russki]

Note that Ashkenazi were mostly European and partly Polish so the estimation for Poles in the opposite direction could be confusing.
But yes there was some conversion of Jews. One particularly big ca. 40.000 so called Frankists in Podolia (Ukraine) late 18c.

Overall it is genetically elusive.
https://i.ibb.co/VwZr4CJ/scale-2400.jpg (https://ibb.co/CPZNG9m)

This picture with 5% Indian in Romanians always made me wonder if Gypsies played a role in ethnogenesis of Romanians.

I also added Estonians from another chart for easier comparison.

https://sun9-72.userapi.com/impg/bPcw6WsxNDOkHanQjnad9gFCNpWKUMLRW_TOGA/unhpkd8wOjM.jpg?size=919x623&quality=95&sign=756e633c37d08cb7bd8e6cd2c01cb51a&type=album

[Dunai]

I wonder why didn't Jews in Poland assimilate into Poles, like adopting their language? In Historic Hungary Jews almost completely adopted Hungarian in the age of the Dual Monarchy and even lost their Yiddish language in great parts. It looks to me that in Poland Jews kept more distance to Polish culture.

[Peterski]

I wonder why didn't Jews in Poland assimilate into Poles, like adopting their language? In Historic Hungary Jews almost completely adopted Hungarian in the age of the Dual Monarchy and even lost their Yiddish language in great parts. It looks to me that in Poland Jews kept more distance to Polish culture.

The age of the dual monarchy was 1867-1914. During that time Poland was partitioned and Polish was not the main official language used in Poland, so conditions favourable for Polonization of Jews did not exist. At that time some Jews were becoming Germanized (in Prussian Poland) or Russified (in Russian Poland). But many Jews in Austrian Poland (mainly Galicia) did actually adopt Polish language during that time, especially in big cities like Lvov & Cracow.

=====

In the census of 1921 a large number of Jews, especially in former Austrian Poland (Galicia), actually did declare Polish nationality:

https://i.imgur.com/Eh16g0D.png

https://i.imgur.com/5ThuJKE.png

^^^ Source:

Ezra Mendelsohn, "The Jews of East Central Europe Between the World Wars":

https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29 (https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=1921+census+Jewish+nationality+Polish+nationali ty&source=bl&ots=Iic-ZJ0glg&sig=TFf3n3emYqyzTjkT7NFrebVPY5M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBmoVChMInuy6pITnxwIVBs9yCh1YBQdj#v=on epage&q&f=false)

^^^ He also wrote:

"(...) by the 1930s acculturation [of Jews in Poland] was making rapid strides forward." (page 32)

=====

So yes, there was a large number of Polonized, assimilated Jews - especiially in big cities.

But Poland had way more Jews (both in total & as a percent of population) than Hungary.

[Lucas]

Google translate it https://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114883,28064795,dwie-siostry-spotkaly-sie-po-ponad-80-latach-jeszcze-niedawno.html#s=BoxLoCpMT

Two sisters were adopted after (or during?) WWII and separated. It was revealed by 23me tests they are sisters and also of Jewish heritage.
Interesting that they were put in catholic orphanages. I think it could be more such people in Poland who were not aware of being Jewish completely and feel regular Poles.

[Peterski]

Google translate it https://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114883,28064795,dwie-siostry-spotkaly-sie-po-ponad-80-latach-jeszcze-niedawno.html#s=BoxLoCpMT

Two sisters were adopted after (or during?) WWII and separated. It was revealed by 23me tests they are sisters and also of Jewish heritage.
Interesting that they were put in catholic orphanages. I think it could be more such people in Poland who were not aware of being Jewish completely and feel regular Poles.

Yes

[cass]

The age of the dual monarchy was 1867-1914. During that time Poland was partitioned and Polish was not the main official language used in Poland, so conditions favourable for Polonization of Jews did not exist. At that time some Jews were becoming Germanized (in Prussian Poland) or Russified (in Russian Poland). But many Jews in Austrian Poland (mainly Galicia) did actually adopt Polish language during that time, especially in big cities like Lvov & Cracow.

=====

In the census of 1921 a large number of Jews, especially in former Austrian Poland (Galicia), actually did declare Polish nationality:

https://i.imgur.com/Eh16g0D.png

https://i.imgur.com/5ThuJKE.png

^^^ Source:

Ezra Mendelsohn, "The Jews of East Central Europe Between the World Wars":

https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29 (https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=1921+census+Jewish+nationality+Polish+nationali ty&source=bl&ots=Iic-ZJ0glg&sig=TFf3n3emYqyzTjkT7NFrebVPY5M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBmoVChMInuy6pITnxwIVBs9yCh1YBQdj#v=on epage&q&f=false)

^^^ He also wrote:

"(...) by the 1930s acculturation [of Jews in Poland] was making rapid strides forward." (page 32)

=====

So yes, there was a large number of Polonized, assimilated Jews - especiially in big cities.

But Poland had way more Jews (both in total & as a percent of population) than Hungary.

The polonization of the language was a fairly late process. Before the partition, they enjoyed full religious and economic freedom, as well as judicial and communal autonomy.

[Russki]

Note that Ashkenazi were mostly European and partly Polish so the estimation for Poles in the opposite direction could be confusing.
But yes there was some conversion of Jews. One particularly big ca. 40.000 so called Frankists in Podolia (Ukraine) late 18c.

Overall it is genetically elusive.
https://i.ibb.co/VwZr4CJ/scale-2400.jpg (https://ibb.co/CPZNG9m)

I made a further contribution by adding Russian_North from another chart.

https://sun9-85.userapi.com/impg/i_k-QllyqEf-Jq8PnKXGLkZib4z5WEKbtWd5Bg/Wg4_TUbtW4w.jpg?size=924x653&quality=95&sign=3494b23734baef1d71f163b4e12cd08a&type=album

[Peterski]

Poland was effectively the main centre for European Jewry for a long time, and a good number would have intermarried.

The same applied to present-day Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania - which were also known as "Poland" (or "Poland-Lithuania") in those times.

So if Poles have some Jewish admixture, the same most likely applies also to Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians & other ethnic groups:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260314-Ethnic-groups-of-the-Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth

[michal3141]

Until World War II and the Holocaust, the Jews in Europe mostly lived in Eastern Europe in particular in Poland and the former USSR states. Poland was then famous for it's strong Jewish community, to the point where some towns and areas reaching a Jewish majority. For centuries, Poland was home to the largest and most significant Ashkenazi Jewish community in the world, so I wonder if that didn't impact the genetics of the Slavic Polish majority during all that time.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/291001456079929344/938198250777903124/unknown.png?width=323&height=472

G25 suggests so, but it just might be confusing some common ancestral elements of both ashkenazis and poles.

What does your European average consists of?
I guess you can try to model any European ethnicity and show it has some Ashkenazi admix that way.
Majority of Poles don't have any Jewish ancestry.

[Peterski]

Majority of Poles don't have any Jewish ancestry.

But what sort of majority? Something like 51% ??? Or more?

[michal3141]

But what sort of majority? Something like 51% ??? Or more?

I don't have strong data on that but I assume 90%+
How many people with documented Jewish ancestors do you know?
Personally I don't know such people.
But again I live in the countryside.

[michal3141]

doube post, to be removed

[Tanais]

I wonder why didn't Jews in Poland assimilate into Poles, like adopting their language? In Historic Hungary Jews almost completely adopted Hungarian in the age of the Dual Monarchy and even lost their Yiddish language in great parts. It looks to me that in Poland Jews kept more distance to Polish culture.
To assimilate you have to sympathize with the locals. If locals have cold character, then not good.

[Peterski]

To assimilate you have to sympathize with the locals. If locals have cold character, then not good.

A song about a witch named Kania trying to assimilate into a cold, low trust Slavic neighbourhood:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc5PJtoZ8sU

[rothaer]

(...)

You are doing a lot of efforts in genetics, but I still wait for your judgment regarding this question by just looking at your 23andMe matches with 4 gp born in Poland that are looking to be ethnic Poles (and not Jews or Germans) for over one year.

Can't you just do it within 10 miniutes and then report? (You can filter for 4 gp born in Poland.)

I could find about 20 Polish matches at 23andMe and kind of 80% do have minor AJ and even the eventually German rural "Werner the Masurian", that seems essentially fully derived from Poles scores 0.3% AJ. As a Protestant in a country that got Protestant in 1525 this could mean that it's even about a pre 1500 AD contribution in Poles. Of course this is then something that regularly can not be found in any geneaology.

[rothaer]

To all Poles or people with some Polish matches at 23andMe!:

Filter the matches for such that do have 4 grandparents born in Poland and that seem to be ethnic Poles (and not Jews or Germans), say that do have 75+% Eastern European.

Click on them. Some have their Ancestry Composition visible and there look for Ashkenazi Jewish (AJ). If you have done that a number of times, how would you summarize the commonality of Poles having any AJ contributions?

[Russki]

I added Jew_Yemen and Saami from other charts.

Belarus, Ukraine and even Czech Republic have more Jewish-related component than Poles.

https://sun9-4.userapi.com/impg/0HdyD3p561sCF_pTDau6sSHFI0hG-Ct54U7G9w/tdGl3K4az6w.jpg?size=924x733&quality=95&sign=134e3b51f51e793d518e8d503a43a1da&type=album

[Jana]

I added Jew_Yemen and Saami from other charts.

Belarus, Ukraine and even Czech Republic have more Jewish-related component than Poles.

https://sun9-4.userapi.com/impg/0HdyD3p561sCF_pTDau6sSHFI0hG-Ct54U7G9w/tdGl3K4az6w.jpg?size=924x733&quality=95&sign=134e3b51f51e793d518e8d503a43a1da&type=album

this is completely useless in detecting Jewish admixture. Jewish related =/= actual AJ ancestry

People keep talking about Italians but Italians unlike Poles don't score any AJ on 23andme. Genetic similarity is menaingless in this case.

[Jana]

Intermarriages were not popular or rather almost impossible due to difference of religion (and language) until 20c. It was rather limited conversion of Polonized families into Christian society and to some degree informal relationships the other way.
Its well visible in Ashkenazi DNA. They are much more similar to Italians and possibly Rhineland then Poles. Although previous intermixtures appeared 800y and 600y earlier.

Italians and Germans as a rule score 0% AJ, Poles score trace amounts of it. Belarusians and Ukrainians possibly too.
since those are trace amounts, it looks like centuries old admixture and that is why there are no records of it (from PLC era)

[Jana]

You are doing a lot of effort in genetics, but I still wait for your judgment regarding this question by just looking at your 23andMe matches with 4 gp born in Poland that are looking to be ethnic Poles (and not Jews or Germans) for over one year.

Can't you just do it within 10 miniutes and then report? (You can filter for 4 gp born in Poland.)

I could find about 20 Polish matches at 23andMe and kind of 80% do have minor AJ and even the eventually German rural "Werner the Masurian", that seems essentially fully derived from Poles scores 0.3% AJ. As a Protestant in a country that got Protestant in 1525 this could mean that it's even about a pre 1500 AD contribution in Poles. Of course this is then something that regularly can not be found in any geneaology.

I have a friend with ethnic Polish ancestry and she also scores trace levels of AJ on 23andme (like 2% or so)

[Russki]

this is completely useless in detecting Jewish admixture. Jewish related =/= actual AJ ancestry

People keep talking about Italians but Italians unlike Poles don't score any AJ on 23andme. Genetic similarity is menaingless in this case.

I think in terms of Jewish ancestry

Belarusians > Poles > Ukrainians > Lithuanians

[Arūnas]

I think in terms of Jewish ancestry

Belarusians > Poles > Ukrainians > Lithuanians

but in the terms of ruling elites, only Lithuania is safe

[rothaer]

but in the terms of ruling elites, only Lithuania is safe

Lol. But before agreeing, I'd like to see Lithuanian "ruling elite" 23andMe results.

[Roy]

I have a friend with ethnic Polish ancestry and she also scores trace levels of AJ on 23andme (like 2% or so)

I score it too. I would like to test my mother as my maternal-great-grandmother sometimes half-jokingly told stories about some Jewish ancestor.

[Blondie]

Hungary has the most significant jewish genetic after Israel in the world:

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-most-jewish-descendants-dna-israel/

[Blondie]

I wonder why didn't Jews in Poland assimilate into Poles, like adopting their language? In Historic Hungary Jews almost completely adopted Hungarian in the age of the Dual Monarchy and even lost their Yiddish language in great parts. It looks to me that in Poland Jews kept more distance to Polish culture.

In Hungary it was mostly forced assimilation/magyarization.

[Scandal]

Hungary has the most significant jewish genetic after Israel in the world:

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-most-jewish-descendants-dna-israel/
Hungarians may or may not have some Jewish dna, but the article is based on Myheritage's findings. That company is not very reliable especially when it comes to detecting Jewish dna. 23andme has extremely good algorithm to detect Jewish dna, if you have a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish grandparent you will score exactly 25% Jewish on 23andme (but I heard 23andme is not good at identifying sephardic dna). You can score a few % Askenazi on Myheritage without having any jewish ancestry.

[Arūnas]

Peter Jakab percents of noble ancestry???

https://www.jta.org/2020/01/25/global/hungarys-far-right-jobbik-party-has-anti-semitism-baggage-and-a-new-leader-with-jewish-roots

[Cristiano viejo]

I think yes.
Kubica could be the poster of some Jewish prisoner in some concentration camp
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIWYk4eT49DpL7lg3HZVW-UfLyUgOjjR2Y7Q&usqp=CAU

[Scandal]

Peter Jakab percents of noble ancestry???

https://www.jta.org/2020/01/25/global/hungarys-far-right-jobbik-party-has-anti-semitism-baggage-and-a-new-leader-with-jewish-roots
He's 1/4 or 1/8 Jewish but Jobbik is not even a far right party nowadays (and wasn't far right in 2020), they turned centrist some years ago. Fidesz swapped platforms with Jobbik over the years.

[Blondie]

He's 1/4 or 1/8 Jewish but Jobbik is not even a far right party nowadays (and wasn't far right in 2020), they turned centrist some years ago. Fidesz swapped platforms with Jobbik over the years.

Jobbik is not centrist, they have no any ideology, its just satellite party of DK.

[cass]

I think yes.
Kubica could be the poster of some Jewish prisoner in some concentration camp
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIWYk4eT49DpL7lg3HZVW-UfLyUgOjjR2Y7Q&usqp=CAU

A phylogeographic study in 2008 of 1,150 volunteer Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups appeared to support the idea that the number of conversions has been significantly underestimated, as 20% of the tested Iberian population had haplogroups consistent with Sephardi ancestry.

[Jana]

but in the terms of ruling elites, only Lithuania is safe

Richmondbread is quarter Lithuanian and sth like 5% Jewish, most likely his AJ is cominng from Lithuanian side.

[Jana]

I think yes.
Kubica could be the poster of some Jewish prisoner in some concentration camp
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIWYk4eT49DpL7lg3HZVW-UfLyUgOjjR2Y7Q&usqp=CAU

He doesn't look Jewish.

[Jana]

Hungary has the most significant jewish genetic after Israel in the world:

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-most-jewish-descendants-dna-israel/

Those are tested Hungarian Jews, not ethnic Hungarians. Although minor Jewish ancestry isn't rare in ethnic Hungarians either indeed.


Hungarians may or may not have some Jewish dna, but the article is based on Myheritage's findings. That company is not very reliable especially when it comes to detecting Jewish dna. 23andme has extremely good algorithm to detect Jewish dna, if you have a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish grandparent you will score exactly 25% Jewish on 23andme (but I heard 23andme is not good at identifying sephardic dna). You can score a few % Askenazi on Myheritage without having any jewish ancestry.

True.

[cass]

Lol. But before agreeing, I'd like to see Lithuanian "ruling elite" 23andMe results.

You may be very surprised
Polish state legislation dealt with neophytes only rarely. In 1588, the Third Lithuanian Statute allowed for the ennoblement of Jews who converted to Catholicism. This law was applied in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and, on some occasions, in the Crown territories of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. In 1764, the Polish Sejm revoked the ruling, perhaps as a result of mass conversions instigated by Jakub Frank and his followers in the late 1750s and early 1760s.

[rothaer]

Hungarians may or may not have some Jewish dna, but the article is based on Myheritage's findings. That company is not very reliable especially when it comes to detecting Jewish dna. 23andme has extremely good algorithm to detect Jewish dna, if you have a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish grandparent you will score exactly 25% Jewish on 23andme (but I heard 23andme is not good at identifying sephardic dna). You can score a few % Askenazi on Myheritage without having any jewish ancestry.

23andMe is perfect in displaying AJ DNA, but this doesn't imply that a grandparent is shown with exactly 25.0%. Because you don't necessarly inherit 25% from a grandparent. For two grandparents of mine it's as skewed as 35%:15%.

"(but I heard 23andme is not good at identifying sephardic dna)":

True, there is no such component, so sephardic DNA is not detected as such at all.

[Cristiano viejo]

A phylogeographic study in 2008 of 1,150 volunteer Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups appeared to support the idea that the number of conversions has been significantly underestimated, as 20% of the tested Iberian population had haplogroups consistent with Sephardi ancestry.

They counted as Sefardi and North African any non r1b haplogroup :thumb001:

[cass]

They counted as Sefardi and North African any non r1b haplogroup :thumb001:

Nothing to be ashamed dude.
The Marranos who had taken control of the Republican Government were behind the burning down of churches and Marranos like Caudillo himself rebuilt them later.

[Cristiano viejo]

Nothing to be ashamed dude.
The Marranos who had taken control of the Republican Government were behind the burning down of churches and Marranos like Caudillo himself rebuilt them later.

:lol:

[gixajo]

What does your European average consists of?
I guess you can try to model any European ethnicity and show it has some Ashkenazi admix that way.
Majority of Poles don't have any Jewish ancestry.

One thing is Jewish (known) ancestry and another different thing is Jewish admixture from unknown ancestors.

when during some times some ancestries are uncomfortable or provoke rejection, people tend to voluntarily forget them or directly hide them.

I am not saying that majority of Polish people has it, I am just saying that what people knows or thinks is not always very trustworthy.

[Scandal]

they have no any ideology
aka centrist

[Blondie]

aka centrist

Nope, centrists have ideology, they are mix of right and left, but Jobbik has no any ideology, they will be everything what the DK wants.

[Muffinman]

It's hard to tell with these calculators. I think 23andme would actually detect Jewish ancestry better.

[Dunai]

In Hungary it was mostly forced assimilation/magyarization.

Regarding Jews in Hungary forced measures of assimilation were rarely implemented during the Dual Monarchy period, if at all. Hungary was the first country in Eastern Europe that created a Jewish emancipation law in 1849 but the Habsburgs didn't recognize it after defeating the Hungarian Revolution. However it still became official for the first time in this region in 1867. Jewish rabbis in Hungary were the biggest proponents of adopting Hungarian language by their religious community, it wasn't any law from Hungarian side that demanded it. By learning Hungarian, the official language of the Hungarian part of the Dual-Monarchy, they seen the most suitable path for climbing up on the economic and social ladder. This is why Jews during this period have managed to achieve much higher representation compared to their percentage in many important jobs in Hungary. They were even more keen to adopt Hungarian and assimilate than Germans in Hungary, who also were known to assimilate in higher degree than other nationalities. Hungary became a very popular country to migrate for many Jews from Eastern Europe, where they were often persecuted, because of the very Liberal for its time period approach for Jewish emancipation, between 1850-1900 the number of Jews has increased three times, arriving to 1 million people. Nowhere in Europe did the Jews felt such connection with their country as Jews in Hungary, and that's why Jews were very patriotic and loyal to the Hungarian state. According to this principle Neolog Judaism developed uniquely in Hungary, which was a modernist and Liberal representation compared to conservative Orthodox Judaism. Contrary to many other European countries there were no anti-Jewish pogroms in Hungary during Dual-Monarchy, even if just like everywhere else antisemitic sentiment was widespread.

"Az 1840-es években kezdődött el magyarországi zsidók asszimilációja, beolvadása a magyar nemzetbe. Pesten lelkes zsidók magyarosító egyesületet alakítanak, hogy a magyar nyelvet hitsorsosaik közt terjesszék; hasonló célú egyesületek a vidéken is keletkeztek.

A 19. század végén erőteljessé vált a nemzetiségi születésű magyarországi állampolgárok önkéntes magyarrá válása. Bár többek között sok szlovák, román, délszláv személy is asszimilálódott, a legszívesebben azonban mégis a német kisebbség és a felemelkedő zsidóság tagjai választották a magyarsághoz való asszimilálódást. Más európai országokban nem zajlott le a zsidóságnak ilyen tömeges méretű beolvadása a többségi keresztény társadalomba, másutt erősen elkülönülő vallási és egyben etnikai kisebbség maradtak. Bár Németországban és Ausztriában már valamivel korábban megindult egy hasonló asszimilációs folyamat, ezekben az országokban a többségi társadalom gyakran igen elutasító volt, ami valamennyire továbbra is fenntartotta a zsidóság hagyományos elkülönülését. Magyarországon ezzel szemben a újonnan meginduló nagyvárosi fejlődés, a többségi társadalom befogadó hozzáállása, a modern nemzetállam megteremtését a nemzetiségek tömeges beolvadásával elképzelő hivatalos politika a zsidóság számára is lehetőséget biztosított az egyenlő társadalmi érvényesülésre és a magyar nemzethez való tartozásra.

A 19. század végének liberális légkörében a magyarországi zsidóság körében igen sokan valóban magyarrá váltak, a nemzethez tartozónak érezték magukat. A magyarországi, főleg városi zsidóságnak csak kisebb része tartott ki a hagyományos zsidó vallás mellett (ortodox, illetve status quo irányzat), megőrizve nemzetiségi, etnikai elkülönülését. A döntő többség a neológ felekezethez csatlakozott, a fővárosi zsidóságnak például közel a háromnegyede. A századfordulótól sokan magyar vagy – szintén a magyarrá válás útját járó – német (sváb) házastársat választottak, gyermekeiket megkeresztelték."

So as can be seen from the quote too, the picture regarding Jews in Hungary during the Dual-Monarchy wasn't at all as simplistic and one-sided as you stated, but was real success story from both Hungarian and Jewish perspective, since they contributed greatly for the modernization of Hungary in all fields while Jews had great liberty to climb any economic and social ladder while practicing freely their religion.

[Blondie]

So as can be seen from the quote too, the picture regarding Jews in Hungary during the Dual-Monarchy wasn't at all as simplistic and one-sided as you stated, but was real success story from both Hungarian and Jewish perspective, since they contributed greatly for the modernization of Hungary in all fields while Jews had great liberty to climb any economic and social ladder while practicing freely their religion.

Im not talking about only the Monarchy, but Hungary in general. Btw in the dualism there was hungarian antisemitic party in the parlament:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsz%C3%A1gos_Antiszemita_P%C3%A1rt_(1883)

The german schools were also limited by the magyarization, similar to romanian or slovak cases. The german populated areas were the most advanced in Hungary so many hungarian migrated there and after that they outnumber local germans and many have been assimilated. The hungarian government also supported it. Most germans and jews didn't want assimilate, they were forced by the government.

[Dunai]

Im not talking about only the Monarchy, but Hungary in general. Btw in the dualism there was hungarian antisemitic party in the parlament:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orsz%C3%A1gos_Antiszemita_P%C3%A1rt_(1883)

The german schools were also limited by the magyarization, similar to romanian or slovak cases. The german populated areas were the most advanced in Hungary so many hungarian migrated there and after that they outnumber local germans and many have been assimilated. The hungarian government also supported it. Most germans and jews didn't want assimilate, they were forced by the government.

You should read once again the Hungarian text I quoted: it was önkéntes asszimiláció (self-willing assimilation) from Jewish side. While most other nationalities refused to assimilate willfully, in the same time Jews stood out by their willingly adopting Hungarian language, "magyarrá válás". Most Jews in Hungary became of Neolog confession, which was a Hungarian-based form of Judaism.

"A network of German-language schools was set in many communities, and it switched to Hungarian in 1860, greatly increasing the acculturation of the Jews. By the time of the official schism in 1868–1871, most of the young were already graduates of these. In the cultural sphere, the Neolog elements tended to embrace Magyarization, while the Orthodox Oberlander Jews in the northwest of the Kingdom were more inclined toward the German culture. The Unterlander Jews in the northeast, even more conservative and barely acculturated, remained Yiddish-speaking. However, after the 1867 Austro-Hungarian Compromise, the Orthodox leadership was quick in declaring its support of Magyar nationalism; by the turn of the century, most Hungarian Jews, regardless of affiliation, viewed themselves as "Magyars of Israelite faith".

You clearly know very little about the history of Jews in Dual-Monarchy period in Hungary, otherwise you wouldn't group their very unique historic case together with the other nationalities in Hungary. And I already stated in my initial reply, antisemitic sentiment was widespread in Hungary of that time, which wasn't unique to Hungary at all, but everywhere else in Europe. Persecution of Jews and pogroms against them however were never tolerated by the Hungarian state. Only notable case of strong antisemitism was the Tiszaeszlár blood-libel from 1882, in which eventually all wrongfully accused Jews were acquitted by the judge, once again proving that Jews were given a fair trial, thus no state interference for doing them wrong.

[Blondie]

Persecution of Jews and pogroms against them however were never tolerated by the Hungarian state.

Really? This guy has different opinion:

https://kuruc.info/galeriaN/egyeb/szalasi_i2116.jpg

[Dunai]

Really? This guy has different opinion:


In this thread I strictly was speaking of the Dual-Monarchy period, never once I got into post WWI period. That's a whole different story which clearly shows how disgraceful did Hungary behave with their most loyal minority, the Hungarian Jews.

[Blondie]

In this thread I strictly was speaking of the Dual-Monarchy period, never once I got into post WWI period. That's a whole different story which clearly shows how disgraceful did Hungary behave with their most loyal minority, the Hungarian Jews.

And as i said i have talked about Hungary in general not only the Monarchy.

[Lemminkäinen]

Until World War II and the Holocaust, the Jews in Europe mostly lived in Eastern Europe in particular in Poland and the former USSR states. Poland was then famous for it's strong Jewish community, to the point where some towns and areas reaching a Jewish majority. For centuries, Poland was home to the largest and most significant Ashkenazi Jewish community in the world, so I wonder if that didn't impact the genetics of the Slavic Polish majority during all that time.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/291001456079929344/938198250777903124/unknown.png?width=323&height=472

G25 suggests so, but it just might be confusing some common ancestral elements of both ashkenazis and poles.

No, it is likely conversely. Polish Ashkenazim look often North European.

[Roy]

No, it is likely conversely. Polish Ashkenazim look often North European.

Wrong. Polish Ashkenazim or any pure Ashkenazi Jews very rarely look 'North European'.

[Leto]

No, it is likely conversely. Polish Ashkenazim look often North European.
Your grandkids are half Jewish, right? Do they look Finnish to you?

[Lemminkäinen]

Wrong. Polish Ashkenazim or any pure Ashkenazi Jews very rarely look 'North European'.

No, I am right. We have Polish Jews and they often look Polish. The reson is obviously the fact that Judaism is inherited through mother. The ethnicity of father can be whatever. There is no mandatory reason to be pureblood.

[vandor]

What about Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians - do they also have small AJ admixtures?

I dunno about Belorussia, but Ukrainian Jews were always a sort of cursed people and untouchables. You could not marry one due to laws of Russian Empire, they were not allowed to live in the same villages with other ethnic groups, they missed lots of basic human rights. My mother, an educated person who was born in Ukrainian village spent whole life as an everyday "jews this, jews that" antisemite, I had strong influence with some funny issues in school repeating stuff i've heard at home. I'm sure it was not the same in Western Ukraine and there could be some mixing, but in central and southern Ukraine it would be something unbelieveable. Regarding myself, i'm sure my mother won't be happy if I had Jewish girlfriend xD

[rothaer]

I wonder why didn't Jews in Poland assimilate into Poles, like adopting their language? In Historic Hungary Jews almost completely adopted Hungarian in the age of the Dual Monarchy and even lost their Yiddish language in great parts. It looks to me that in Poland Jews kept more distance to Polish culture.

I think that this is because of Hungarians were a people with a very strong assimilation tendency. Both with push and pull factors. I think Hungarians are an exception in Europe.

[Lemminkäinen]

In Poland they didn't often abandon their language because the Jewish community was strong enough to survive. But that they didn't merge at all is bull shit.

[Cristiano viejo]

He doesn't look Jewish.Yes he does

Kubica looks like one of them
https://estaticos.muyhistoria.es/media/cache/400x300_thumb/uploads/images/video/5a6b336d5cafe8038a366ce1/barracones.jpg

[Hoosierboy]

Yes he does

Kubica looks like one of them
https://estaticos.muyhistoria.es/media/cache/400x300_thumb/uploads/images/video/5a6b336d5cafe8038a366ce1/barracones.jpg

You're a 100 percent positive everyone one in that picture is Jewish?

[Cristiano viejo]

You're a 100 percent positive everyone one in that picture is Jewish?

Nah, they are Nazi soldiers who decided to take an exotic photo, true?

[Arūnas]

It takes one to know one, so true

[Hoosierboy]

Nah, they are Nazi soldiers who decided to take an exotic photo, true?

You're well aware that the majority of people in concentration camps were European right?

[Cristiano viejo]

You're well aware that the majority of people in concentration camps were European right?

Honestly, no idea.

[Lemminkäinen]

A little maths. Let's assume that there was 3 millions Jews in Poland (is it enough? Today some tens of thousands, less than in Helsinki pro data ) and 20 million Poles. The ratio is 1:6.66. If you now insist that Poles have 5% Ashkenazi ancestry, it means that we should expect a 30% blend between Poles and Jews, but only from Jews to Poles to keep the rest of Jews pureblood. Mission impossible. On the other hand, if we look the problem conversely we need only random poles to be mixed. But this is not my reasoning, I only know things better :)

Jewish population fixed to 3 million.

Of course any bigger admixture is possible if the Poles went through a population bottle neck living in a parallel community with Jews.

[Jana]

Yes he does

He doesn't have any particular Levantine features. Not every brunet European with big nose looks Jewish.

[Jana]

No, I am right. We have Polish Jews and they often look Polish. The reson is obviously the fact that Judaism is inherited through mother. The ethnicity of father can be whatever. There is no mandatory reason to be pureblood.

Polish Jews are usually people who have full Jewish ancestry, both parents that are Jews. I don't see point to discuss half Poles or mixed people.

[Lemminkäinen]

Polish Jews are usually people who have full Jewish ancestry, both parents that are Jews. I don't see point to discuss half Poles or mixed people.

There are only few Polish Jews today and this question is outdated. No reason to talk about them. I was taking about the Jewish admixture in Poles and simply statistics tells that 5%, as shown in OP, is not possible.

Most of them moved to Israel or USA. Only 20000 left.

[MercifulServant]

Slightly but not enough to significantly influence genotype or phenotype.

[Jana]

There are only few Polish Jews today and this question is outdated. No reason to talk about them. I was taking about the Jewish admixture in Poles and simply statistics tells that 5%, as shown in OP, is not possible.

Most of them moved to Israel or USA. Only 20000 left.

OP is way off, AJ admix in ethnic Poles, if there is, is very small, way below his odd calculation (no idea how he got that).
Such admix can't be determined by modeling anyhow, but by IBD sharing like 23andme does.

[Roy]

There are only few Polish Jews today and this question is outdated. No reason to talk about them. I was taking about the Jewish admixture in Poles and simply statistics tells that 5%, as shown in OP, is not possible.

Most of them moved to Israel or USA. Only 20000 left.

Jewish admixture is much lower than 5% in Poland.

[Pine]

No, it is likely conversely. Polish Ashkenazim look often North European.

lol

[Lemminkäinen]

lol

This question us outdated, because Polish Ashkenazim are almost extinct. But as Stearsolina wrote, those with both parents of Ashkenazi ancestry tend to look Jewish :)


Poland
10,000–20,000[1][2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

[Roy]

This question us outdated, because Polish Ashkenazim are almost extinct. But as Stearsolina wrote, those with both parents of Ashkenazi ancestry tend to look Jewish :)


Poland
10,000–20,000[1][2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

Ok, you make sense more then. But even those who are 1/2 often tend to look like these two Polish singers.


Justyna Steczkowska. BTW. Steczkowska's parents were both very pious Roman Catholics, her late dad even was a priest before he quit the priesthood. And he was a Jew before he converted to Roman Catholicism (I don't remember whether it was him or his parents). She also has some distant Tatar ancestry. She sings a lot of traditional Jewish songs.
https://gfx.radiozet.pl/var/radiozet/storage/images/rozrywka/plotki/justyna-steczkowska-pozuje-w-samej-bieliznie-zmyslowe-zdjecie-rozpalilo-fanow-foto/2385936-3-pol-PL/Justyna-Steczkowska-pozuje-w-samej-bieliznie.-Zmyslowe-zdjecie-rozpalilo-fanow-FOTO_article.jpg

Natalia Kukulska
https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/_VVk9kpTURBXy8wNjA1MjhhZDMyNjc2YzY3OGRlNWE1Y2MzNTU xMWUzZC5qcGeTlQPM18zhzQkVzQUckwXNAxTNAbyTCaY1N2ZiZ DAGgaEwAQ/natalia-kukulska.jpg

[Jana]

Ok, you make sense more then. But even those who are 1/2 often tend to look like these two Polish singers.


Justyna Steczkowska. BTW. Steczkowska's parents were both very pious Roman Catholics, her late dad even was a priest before he quit the priesthood. And he was a Jew before he converted to Roman Catholicism (I don't remember whether it was him or his parents). She also has some distant Tatar ancestry. She sings a lot of traditional Jewish songs.
https://gfx.radiozet.pl/var/radiozet/storage/images/rozrywka/plotki/justyna-steczkowska-pozuje-w-samej-bieliznie-zmyslowe-zdjecie-rozpalilo-fanow-foto/2385936-3-pol-PL/Justyna-Steczkowska-pozuje-w-samej-bieliznie.-Zmyslowe-zdjecie-rozpalilo-fanow-FOTO_article.jpg

Natalia Kukulska
https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/_VVk9kpTURBXy8wNjA1MjhhZDMyNjc2YzY3OGRlNWE1Y2MzNTU xMWUzZC5qcGeTlQPM18zhzQkVzQUckwXNAxTNAbyTCaY1N2ZiZ DAGgaEwAQ/natalia-kukulska.jpg

Are they half Jewish half Polish? Good looking women.

[Roy]

Are they half Jewish half Polish? Good looking women.

Yes. In case of Justyna, she has amazing legs, she even insured them for 700,000 PLN. :D

https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/XDUk9kpTURBXy84NjNiNzhhMTBkZWE3MTZkNGZkZWUyMzIxYmV mYmZkMC5wbmeWlQLNAxQAwsOVAgDNAvjCw5QGzP_M_8z_lAbM_ 8z_zP-UBsz_zP_M_5QGzP_M_8z_gaEwBQ
https://s3.party.pl/newsy/justyna-steczkowska-na-spacerze-w-sukni-z-rozcieciami-483786-3_4.jpg
https://cdn.galleries.smcloud.net/t/galleries/gf-vZT9-V257-gjSS_nogi-justyny-steczkowskiej-664x0-nocrop.jpg
https://ocdn.eu/images/pulscms/OTI7MDA_/67739cf69572ad76407a09f0f392076e.jpeg

[Roy]

No, I am right. We have Polish Jews and they often look Polish. The reson is obviously the fact that Judaism is inherited through mother. The ethnicity of father can be whatever. There is no mandatory reason to be pureblood.

Post those Polish Jews from Finland (I suppose) here. :)

Yes, it is correct that their religion is inherited through mother but the majority of Jews have both parents who are Jewish or a lot of such ancestors anyway.

[Lemminkäinen]

Post those Polish Jews from Finland (I suppose) here. :)

Yes, it is correct that their religion is inherited through mother but the majority of Jews have both parents who are Jewish or a lot of such ancestors anyway.

A bit weird asking it: "Post those ...". I'll not give names or pictures of ordinary people. I didn't write that they all look North or Central European. Here some of them, hard to say exactly are they from Baltic countries, Poland or Hungary, because people moved from country to another and those who came to Finland are mostly middle class people who did it often.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Major_Leo_Skurnik.jpg/250px-Major_Leo_Skurnik.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Ren%C3%A9_Nyberg_2017_07.jpg/190px-Ren%C3%A9_Nyberg_2017_07.jpg

http://www.storiedisport.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/katz.jpg

https://photos.geni.com/p13/97/0d/ad/86/5344484154674a9d/miska3mh_ms_medium.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Marion_Rung_in_1962.jpg/250px-Marion_Rung_in_1962.jpg

https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/658/8d6d80219f5a49c295397aea8c1de9a5.jpg.webp

https://i.discogs.com/pG8T-bKLS1cdYEhOukByrOAG76CAsC-LM8bdlfgp4Bs/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9BLTYw/Mjg2Ny0xNDM1ODM5/Mjc4LTYwMjkuanBl/Zw.jpeg

[Polak]

I don't Ashkenazi ancestry is actually that common from what I've seen.

[celticdragongod]

Until World War II and the Holocaust, the Jews in Europe mostly lived in Eastern Europe in particular in Poland and the former USSR states. Poland was then famous for it's strong Jewish community, to the point where some towns and areas reaching a Jewish majority. For centuries, Poland was home to the largest and most significant Ashkenazi Jewish community in the world, so I wonder if that didn't impact the genetics of the Slavic Polish majority during all that time.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/291001456079929344/938198250777903124/unknown.png?width=323&height=472

G25 suggests so, but it just might be confusing some common ancestral elements of both ashkenazis and poles.

Some Poles likely have Jewish ancestry but it is unlikely that all of them do.

[Polak]

Are they half Jewish half Polish? Good looking women.

Bottom one looks so much like my mum.