Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations

[Wulfhere]

This particular hybrid had produced some of the most successful societies in human history - the question is, why? What is it about these two groupings that together can do this? Here are some examples:

England: Brythonic Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes.
Scotland: Brythonic Celts, Gaelic Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Norse.
Ireland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
Wales: Brythonic Celts, Norse.
Iceland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
USA: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Germans.
Australia: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh.

[Hevneren]

This particular hybrid had produced some of the most successful societies in human history - the question is, why? What is it about these two groupings that together can do this? Here are some examples:

England: Brythonic Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Danes.
Scotland: Brythonic Celts, Gaelic Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Norse.
Ireland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
Wales: Brythonic Celts, Norse.
Iceland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
USA: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Germans.
Australia: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh.

You forgot the Jutes and Normans. :)

[Wulfhere]

You forgot the Jutes and Normans. :)

Jutes are usually understood to be included in the term Anglo-Saxon. The Normans, insofar as they were Germanic at all, were Norse.

[Hevneren]

Jutes are usually understood to be included in the term Anglo-Saxon. The Normans, insofar as they were Germanic at all, were Norse.

Jutes were separate from Anglians and Saxons, and Normans were a mix of Norse and Frankish/Gaulish people.

[Wulfhere]

Jutes were separate from Anglians and Saxons, and Normans were a mix of Norse and Frankish/Gaulish people.

Yes, I know. I was simplifying. The Normans, for example, made up such a small percentage of the population of England I didn't bother listing them - and nor for the other countries of the British Isles either.

[rhiannon]

This particular hybrid had produced some of the most successful societies in human history - the question is, why? What is it about these two groupings that together can do this? Here are some examples:

England: Brythonic Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes.
Scotland: Brythonic Celts, Gaelic Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Norse.
Ireland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
Wales: Brythonic Celts, Norse.
Iceland: Gaelic Celts, Norse.
USA: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Germans.
Australia: English, Scots, Irish, Welsh.

What is a Brythonic Celt and why is it separate from a Gaelic Celt?

[Wulfhere]

What is a Brythonic Celt?

Someone who speaks a Brythonic language such as Welsh or Cornish, descended from British, a P-Celtic language, unlike Gaelic, which is Q-Celtic.

[research_centre]

Jutes are usually understood to be included in the term Anglo-Saxon. The Normans, insofar as they were Germanic at all, were Norse.

Good points! :thumb001:

[Argyll]

The Norse in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are hardly any at all, unless, in Scotland, you go to the Northern Isles.

[Argyll]

What is a Brythonic Celt and why is it separate from a Gaelic Celt?

:eek: Shame byrnecres, shame! :nono:


Jutes were separate from Anglians and Saxons, and Normans were a mix of Norse and Frankish/Gaulish people.

So that would make the Normans part Celtic to! :D

[Wulfhere]

The Norse in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are hardly any at all, unless, in Scotland, you go to the Northern Isles.

No, that's incorrect. The Norse had a very heavy settlement all over northern Scotland, and most of Ireland. Dublin is a Norse town, for example. In Wales their settlement was somewhat less, but still quite significant.

[rhiannon]

:eek: Shame byrnecres, shame! :nono: Hey....I wanted to know because it is directly applicable to my own ancestry. Now, not only is my Germanic a confused Germanic, based on the history of the Isles....so is my Celt:eek: I always thought of Celt as just that...Celt. Now I know there are differences.:)

[Argyll]

No, that's incorrect. The Norse had a very heavy settlement all over northern Scotland, and most of Ireland. Dublin is a Norse town, for example. In Wales their settlement was somewhat less, but still quite significant.

In Scotland, their settlements were never really on the mainland. Most of them were concentrated in the Hebrides, where the Celts actually overran them and snuffed them out. In the Northern Isles, they did settle heavily and unseated the Celts that lived there. Now, they did somewhat settle on the mainland, in Caithness, to be exact. But there was hardly any settlement there, as they and the Gaelo-Pictish (poetic liscence) folks battled relentlessly.

You are correct about Ireland, but do you remember the huge battle King Brian Boru had with the viking invaders (which ended up getting him killed by a viking warrior who got pissed that they lost).

I'm going to have to ask Treffie about the Wales part, as I do not know too much about the Norse involvement in Wales.

The vikings also invaded the Isle of Man, but I'm not sure how long they stayed either.

[rhiannon]

No, that's incorrect. The Norse had a very heavy settlement all over northern Scotland, and most of Ireland. Dublin is a Norse town, for example. In Wales their settlement was somewhat less, but still quite significant.

This has always been my understanding as well. Seeing as you live in the UK and are likely to know more about its local history and all....I appreciate your post here for confirming what I also thought to be true.

[Treffie]

What is a Brythonic Celt and why is it separate from a Gaelic Celt?

I am a Brythonic Celt! :mad: :p

[Argyll]

Hey....I wanted to know because it is directly applicable to my own ancestry. Now, not only is my Germanic a confused Germanic, based on the history of the Isles....so is my Celt:eek: I always thought of Celt as just that...Celt. Now I know there are differences.:)

Yeah, lol, there's not too much of a difference between the insular and continental Celts, though, save for the P and Q Celtic languages. I'd really love to do some archaealogical work on the Picts, one day, though.

[Argyll]

I am a Brythonic Celt! :mad: :p

Gaelic + Brythonic is me! :D

What was the viking influence like in Wales, Treffie?

[rhiannon]

I am a Brythonic Celt! :mad: :p

Uh-oh!:eek:
My mom's maiden name is Welsh...so I have some of that too. But, outside of the language, is there any other real difference between the two groups?

[rhiannon]

Gaelic + Brythonic is me! :D

What was the viking influence like in Wales, Treffie?

See the byrne in my SN? That's my middle name.....IRISH....like my grandmother...it was her maiden name. So, I'm right there with you:)

[Argyll]

Uh-oh!:eek:
My mom's maiden name is Welsh...so I have some of that too. But, outside of the language, is there any other real difference between the two groups?

When I say that I probably have some Welsh ancestry in my profile, it's because that there are a lot of Jones and Owens people that live in my area. I hardly know anything about my biological father's side, save for the Scottish and English.

[Treffie]

What was the viking influence like in Wales, Treffie?

You're talking to it! :D

It wasn't huge, but it was definitely there. Areas like Pembrokeshire, Swansea and Anglesey (all Norse names btw) were settled by them - much less in Wales than anywhere else in Britain though.

[Argyll]

You're talking to it! :D

It wasn't huge, but it was definitely there. Areas like Pembrokeshire, Swansea and Anglesey (all Norse names btw) were settled by them - much less in Wales than anywhere else in Britain though.

Was there any Celtic Rebellion against the viking invaders? I think I read somewhere that there was, and also against the Angles, Saxons, etc.

[rhiannon]

You're talking to it! :D

It wasn't huge, but it was definitely there. Areas like Pembrokeshire, Swansea and Anglesey (all Norse names btw) were settled by them - much less in Wales than anywhere else in Britain though.

Why is that?

[Treffie]

Was there any Celtic Rebellion against the viking invaders? I think I read somewhere that there was, and also against the Angles, Saxons, etc.

There was always fighting amongst the 2 groups, but there was also fighting amongst the natives. Occasionally, the Vikings and Celts came together to fight the Anglo-Saxons. So on any one occasion, someone was always fighting each other.


Byrnie
Why is that?

I've debated with Albion previously that the main reason was that the natives were simply too strong for them. The counter argument why they didn't settle here was due to the topography - however, Wales' geography is much less mountainous than the Vikings' homeland so I've discounted this.

[rhiannon]

There was always fighting amongst the 2 groups, but there was also fighting amongst the natives. Occasionally, the Vikings and Celts came together to fight the Anglo-Saxons. So on any one occasion, someone was always fighting each other.
Not much has changed:p



I've debated with Albion previously that the main reason was that the natives were simply too strong for them. The counter argument why they didn't settle here was due to the topography - however, Wales' geography is much less mountainous than the Vikings' homeland so I've discounted this.
Aha. The Wale is a bad-ass:) Very good! LOL

[Wulfhere]

In Scotland, their settlements were never really on the mainland. Most of them were concentrated in the Hebrides, where the Celts actually overran them and snuffed them out. In the Northern Isles, they did settle heavily and unseated the Celts that lived there. Now, they did somewhat settle on the mainland, in Caithness, to be exact. But there was hardly any settlement there, as they and the Gaelo-Pictish (poetic liscence) folks battled relentlessly.

You are correct about Ireland, but do you remember the huge battle King Brian Boru had with the viking invaders (which ended up getting him killed by a viking warrior who got pissed that they lost).

I'm going to have to ask Treffie about the Wales part, as I do not know too much about the Norse involvement in Wales.

The vikings also invaded the Isle of Man, but I'm not sure how long they stayed either.

At one point the Norse occupied almost the whole of what had previously been known as Pictland.

[Wulfhere]

Uh-oh!:eek:
My mom's maiden name is Welsh...so I have some of that too. But, outside of the language, is there any other real difference between the two groups?

Not only are the languages very different - completely mutually unintelligible - but the culture of the Brythonic Celts had been heavily Romanised.

[Argyll]

At one point the Norse occupied almost the whole of what had previously been known as Pictland.

Sources?

[Wulfhere]

Sources?

Colin McEvedy, The Penguin Atlas of Medieval History.

[Logan]

I've debated with Albion previously that the main reason was that the natives were simply too strong for them. The counter argument why they didn't settle here was due to the topography - however, Wales' geography is much less mountainous than the Vikings' homeland so I've discounted this.

Wales was more a refuge. The Viking, as were their predecessors, were more after other more fertile regions.;)

[Argyll]

Colin McEvedy, The Penguin Atlas of Medieval History.

Scotland: A History, published by Oxford University Press, says differently.

[Treffie]

Wales was more a refuge. The Viking, as were their predecessors, were more after other more fertile regions.;)

Their predecessors, the Romans, realised that there was gold. The Vikings didn't ;)

[007]

I am a Brythonic Celt! :mad: :p

You have our deepest sympathy. :(

[Logan]

Their predecessors, the Romans, realised that there was gold. The Vikings didn't ;)

They did tend to pillage a bit.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Territories_and_voyages_of_the_Vikings_blank.png
;)

[Argyll]

They did tend to pillage a bit.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Territories_and_voyages_of_the_Vikings_blank.png
;)

That they did, the bastards.

[Logan]

That they did, the bastards.

:D

[Hevneren]

The vikings also invaded the Isle of Man, but I'm not sure how long they stayed either.

The oldest still functional court resides on the Isle of Man and was put in place by the Norse. It's been operational for almost 1200 years. :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

England: Brythonic Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes.
You are forgetting the Jutes and Frisians.

[antonio]

Among the top Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations:

- France (I suppose it's yet cited across the thread)

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he has not read History enough).

[The Lawspeaker]

Among the top Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations:

- France (I suppose it's yet cited across the thread)

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he has not read History enough).
The Netherlands & Belgium too (to an extent). The south always had more Celtic blood then the north.

[antonio]

Indeed. At Spain, Keltic and Germanic entrances were so diverse and extended in time (plus Islamic conquest which turned upside down populations) that is not so obvious. But the main point is still clear: most of those apportations were succesful cases: maybe inmigrant amounts were not massive, but it's clear that people dominating gold mining and commerce (till Romans) or occuping the best lands multiplicated more than relegated preexistent populations. For example Basque suppose to mean "highlander", denoting clearly this relegation of aborigen preIndoeuropean tribes from mainlands.

Other thing is the aculturization those Keltics and those Germanics suffered from preexistent people: what was later known as Celtiberian tribes entered in contact with Iberians (long term exposed to Eastern Mediterranean cultures) from which they loaned f.e. Phenician alphabet and so started to write. Or the full historical case of Suebians and Visigoths adopting Roman culture. On the contrary, at Northern latitudes, Keltic and Germanic cultures and Roman or Greek ones were not so early confounded as f.e. scholar world and rural one were clearly distinguished.

[Wulfhere]

You are forgetting the Jutes and Frisians.

No, I wasn't. The term Anglo-Saxon is usually understood to include those.

[Wulfhere]

Among the top Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations:

- France (I suppose it's yet cited across the thread)

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he has not read History enough).

Neither France nor Spain had a significant Germanic input. Furthermore, Spain has since been degraded by Moorish admixture.

[Logan]

The Netherlands & Belgium too (to an extent). The south always had more Celtic blood then the north.


Interesting. So one might as well say of Ireland, that it is Keltic/Germanic.

[antonio]

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he/she has not read History enough).:D


Neither France nor Spain had a significant Germanic input. Furthermore, Spain has since been degraded by Moorish admixture.

Germanic input at France maybe doesnt pair Keltic one. At Spain it does. Even considering some extent of actual Moorish and actual Jewish blood admixture, percentage of light-eyes blondism on our population outnumber clearly your updated cliches.

And why is so hard to realize that early MiddleAge Germanics had even more reasons to move Southwards in search for Sun and nice climates than current ones? :D

[Wulfhere]

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he/she has not read History enough).:D



Germanic input at France maybe doesnt pair Keltic one. At Spain it does. Even considering some extent of actual Moorish and actual Jewish blood admixture, percentage of light-eyes blondism on our population outnumber clearly your updated cliches.

And why is so hard to realize that early MiddleAge Germanics had even more reasons to move Southwards in search for Sun and nice climates than current ones? :D

Sorry, Spaniards are neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor even white as far as I'm concerned. Race is an instinctive thing. Spaniards are not of my race. Take the "daughter" test: I would not want my daughter to fuck a Spaniard.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I wasn't. The term Anglo-Saxon is usually understood to include those.
Not in Dutch history books. There they are mentioned separately. For the influence of the Frisian language on the English language check the series The Adventure of English.

[Wulfhere]

Not in Dutch history books. There they are mentioned separately. For the influence of the Frisian language on the English language check the series The Adventure of English.

Needless to say, I wasn't referring to Dutch history books, but to English ones, in which the term Anglo-Saxon is a collective term for Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians. And I'm fully aware of the connection between English and Frisian, the latter being the only other surviving Ingaevone language, despite centuries of Dutch attempts to destroy it.

[The Lawspeaker]

Needless to say, I wasn't referring to Dutch history books, but to English ones, in which the term Anglo-Saxon is a collective term for Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians. And I'm fully aware of the connection between English and Frisian, the latter being the only other surviving Ingaevone language, despite centuries of Dutch attempts to destroy it.
A policy that was reversed in 1951. It's not just a "Dutch"policy but more an Hollandic, elitist one. What the House of Orange and it's elitist policies did was quite similar to what the English did in Schotland. Although not in a genocidal way but it was cultural genocide and even today there are people that don't want to speak their dialects as they are afraid of being called peasants.

[Laubach]

Among the top Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations:

- France (I suppose it's yet cited across the thread)

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he has not read History enough).

France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Belgium, the op cited australia, so put New Zealand

[Wulfhere]

A policy that was reversed in 1951. It's not just a "Dutch"policy but more an Hollandic, elitist one. What the House of Orange and it's elitist policies did was quite similar to what the English did in Schotland. Although not in a genocidal way but it was cultural genocide and even today there are people that don't want to speak their dialects as they are afraid of being called peasants.


The English-speaking policy in Scotland had been a policy of the Scottish monarchs long before we annexed it.

But yes, you're right. I feel close kinship with the Frisians, and would support them against the Dutch state at any time.

[Laubach]

Neither France nor Spain had a significant Germanic input. Furthermore, Spain has since been degraded by Moorish admixture.

Burgundians, Franks, Alsatians, Flemishs, Normans does not represent a significant number?

[The Lawspeaker]

But yes, you're right. I feel close kinship with the Frisians, and would support them against the Dutch state at any time.
I don't think they would feel kinship with you. And I know quite a few Frisians.

[Wulfhere]

France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Belgium, the op cited australia, so put New Zealand

France has no discernible Germanic influence. As for New Zealand, what percentage to the Maoris make up?

[Wulfhere]

I don't think they would feel kinship with you. And I know quite a few Frisians.


So do I.

[Lábaru]

France has no discernible Germanic influence. As for New Zealand, what percentage to the Maoris make up?

dts0Aljvmm4

[The Lawspeaker]

So do I.
Bollocks. First of all you know little about Frisian-Dutch relations which are usually complicated enough for the Dutch themselves (Frisians included).
We are now de-facto a bi-lingual country: Frisians speak Frisian in their own council, have their tv-stations in Frisian and Dutch, the place names are bi-lingual etc. EU treaties are now also translated into Frisian. Courtesy to the Dutch government. The Dutch also had quite a few Frisian ministers, members of parliament and even prime ministers.

[Laubach]

France has no discernible Germanic influence. As for New Zealand, what percentage to the Maoris make up?

there are 633 thousands maoris in new zealand and the country was not founded by them. The europeans immigrants that came to New zealand were the same as australian.

France have no discernible Germanic influence ? The country was ruled by the Franks, Burgundians, Normans, who left a strong heritage in the population. Today, we have the Flemish and Alsatian. Just take the north of France and draw their conclusions

[Boudica]

It's just a damn good mix, I suppose. I think that both of these backgrounds mix together in a very positive way. I'm proud to be Celto-Germanic with a hint (1/8th) of Northern Italian :). It's a wonderful ancestry to have, everyone with it should be proud.

[Boudica]

No, that's incorrect. The Norse had a very heavy settlement all over northern Scotland, and most of Ireland. Dublin is a Norse town, for example. In Wales their settlement was somewhat less, but still quite significant.

Don't mind him. He has said on many occasions that he is "pure celtic".. :rolleyes: for whatever reason he is not happy to have Germanic/Norse admixture as well as Celtic admixture, and he is in denial. I don't understand it.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Exmorra_02.JPG
Do the Scots now have the right to use the original Scottish names on road signs ? Are there separate Scots language broadcasting cooperations ? Do the Scots speak Scottish or Scots Gaelic in their parliament ?

There is currently a policy of offering Frisian lessons to whoever moves to Frisia and there were ideas of making it mandatory for those immigrants that move to Frisia to learn Frisian as well as Dutch.

Frisian and Dutch can be used in the courts or when addressing civil servants.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Taalsituatie_Noord-Nederland.png

The current language situation in Frisia: blue is Frisian, orange is Bildts (a seperate dialect), Green are Lower Saxon dialects. Pink are Hollandic dialects.

[Wulfhere]

Bollocks. First of all you know little about Frisian-Dutch relations which are usually complicated enough for the Dutch themselves (Frisians included).
We are now de-facto a bi-lingual country: Frisians speak Frisian in their own council, have their tv-stations in Frisian and Dutch, the place names are bi-lingual etc. EU treaties are now also translated into Frisian. Courtesy to the Dutch government. The Dutch also had quite a few Frisian ministers, members of parliament and even prime ministers.


Yes, that's what you say. But there are many Frisians who want independence. And they should have it. No Ingaevone should ever have to be subject to foreigners.

[Wulfhere]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Exmorra_02.JPG
Do the Scots now have the right to use the original Scottish names on road signs ? Are there separate Scots language broadcasting cooperations ? Do the Scots speak Scottish or Scots Gaelic in their parliament ?

There is currently a policy of offering Frisian lessons to whoever moves to Frisia and there were ideas of making it mandatory for those immigrants that move to Frisia to learn Frisian as well as Dutch.

Frisian and Dutch can be used in the courts or when addressing civil servants.


Yes, they do. The original Scottish language is English.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, that's what you say. But there are many Frisians who want independence. And they should have it. No Ingaevone should ever have to be subject to foreigners.
That's why the Frisian National Party lost the elections and was brought back from 8 to 5 seats in the Frisian Provincial Council ?

:D

And the FNP is against Frisian independence btw: they just want a more federal state unlike the unitary state we have today and I agree with them: if they would run here in Utrecht I'd vote for them.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, they do. The original Scottish language is English.
Bullshit.

[antonio]

Sorry, Spaniards are neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor even white as far as I'm concerned. Race is an instinctive thing. Spaniards are not of my race. Take the "daughter" test: I would not want my daughter to fuck a Spaniard.

Sorry but that's very laughable. Preciselly I know a full-Spanish girl working in Manchester as Chemist who would probably look more Celtic or Germanic that your daughter, though to be fair, maybe not so Anglosaxon, you know you're well known for being at least slighty differentiated from main branches...being elegant. :D

[Treffie]

Don't mind him. He has said on many occasions that he is "pure celtic".. :rolleyes: for whatever reason he is not happy to have Germanic/Norse admixture as well as Celtic admixture, and he is in denial. I don't understand it.

Just like we all were - he's young and impressionable. When he gets to my age, he'll be bitter and twisted. I know what years I'd prefer.


Yes, they do. The original Scottish language is English.

Gaelic predates English by about 1000 years

[Wulfhere]

Bullshit.

The Scottish state is an offshoot of the Northumbrian English state. Please check it out.

[Wulfhere]

Sorry but that's very laughable. Preciselly I know a full-Spanish girl working in Manchester as Chemist who would probably look more Celtic or Germanic that your daughter, though to be fair, maybe not so Anglosaxon, you know you're well known for being at least slighty differentiated from main branches...being elegant. :D

For every white looking Spaniard you could find half a dozen North African looking ones. And even the pale ones have that greasy dago look. Sorry, but in all things that are important, such as race, I go by instinct.

[The Lawspeaker]

I can agree with most of their principles (http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fryske_Nasjonale_Partij).

Demokrasy: De FNP wol it bestjoerlik foech dellizze op in sa'n leech mooglik nivo.
Federalisme: De minsken by de polityk belûke en meiprate litte oer politike besluten.
Ynternasjonalisme: Fryslân as selsstannige bestjoerlike ienheid op Nederlânsk en Europeesk nivo meiprate litte oer belied en beslútfoarming.
Taal en kultuer: De Fryske identiteit fersterkje troch ûnder oaren trijetalich ûnderwiis. Kultuer is in wichtich part fan de mienskip dêr't de partij noed foar stean wol.
Solidariteit: Yn de mienskip sil gjin ferskil makke wurde tusken earm-ryk, jong-âld, sûn-siik.
Undernimmerssin: Utgean fan de eigen krêft. In sterke ekonomy tichtby hûs, iepen nei bûten.
Duorsumens: Ynstee fan wynmûnen oare foarmen fan duorsume enerzjy. Bettere fasiliteiten faor fytsers ynstee fan nije autodiken. Grien en ekonomy wol de partij meiïnoar ferbine, mei behâld fan it lânskip.

Or in Dutch (thank you, FNP (http://www.fnp.nl/?nederlands/standpunten_programma/kernwaarden_van_de_fnp/)):

Democratie: De FNP vindt dat de macht over de overheid aan het volk toebehoort. Mensen moeten zoveel mogelijk worden betrokken bij het openbaar bestuur.

Federalisme: De FNP staat voor een staatsinrichting die mensen en lokale gemeenschappen de bevoegdheden en de middelen geeft om de eigen omgeving zoveel mogelijk zelf gestalte te geven. De FNP wil meer bevoegdheid voor de provincies, een sterker provinciaal bestuur en daarmee een sterker Fryslân.

Internationalisme: De FNP zoekt naar wat mensen bindt en beschouwt de wereld als een federatie van gemeenschappen. Mensenrechten en respect voor andere culturen en levensovertuigingen staan daarbij centraal.

Taal en cultuur: Taal en cultuur dragen sterk bij aan de identiteit en daarmee aan het welzijn van mensen. De FNP wil de Friese identiteit versterken en zet zich daarom in voor de Friese taal en cultuur. De FNP maakt zich sterk voor een Fryslân, waar ook andere talen en culturen gerespecteerd, gepractiseerd en gewaardeerd worden, zoals het Bildts en het Stellingwerfs.

Ondernemingszin: De FNP wil eigen initiatief, creativiteit, verantwoordelijkheid en ondernemingszin de ruimte geven, zodat mensen en gemeenschappen in staat zijn zich optimaal te ontwikkelen.

Solidariteit: De FNP is een gemeenschapspartij. Voor het behoud van de solidariteit moet begrip en respect van beide kanten tussen arm en rijk, jong en oud, gezond en ziek worden behouden en versterkt, zodat niemand aan de kant komt te staan.

Duurzaamheid: De FNP wil een duurzame wereld nalaten aan de komende generaties. In plaats van potverteren zoekt de FNP naar economische vormen van bestaan die een beter evenwicht garanderen tussen consumeren en behouden.

[Wulfhere]

Just like we all were - he's young and impressionable. When he gets to my age, he'll be bitter and twisted. I know what years I'd prefer.



Gaelic predates English by about 1000 years

A very odd thing to say, since the vernacular records of English are older than any Gaelic ones by a long margin.

[Boudica]

Just like we all were - he's young and impressionable. When he gets to my age, he'll be bitter and twisted. I know what years I'd prefer.



True, but I think myself and others can agree it gets annoying and a bit insulting at times, especially when he talks badly of Germanics.. But as you said he's young, it's glad that he is proud of his 'celticness', lol. Atleast he still identifies with his European ancestors and their culture, many people who have had family in America for awhile lose that.

[Leliana]

Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland are also Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations but the Germanic elements are stronger. These regions were the main spots of the Celtic La-Tene and Halstatt culture and it's very likely that the remaining Celtic people mixed with the incoming Germanic tribes and were assimilated. What do you think!? :)

http://www.kriegsreisende.de/antike/antik-img/la-tene-map.jpg
http://oaks.nvg.org/d/eurocelt.jpg

[Treffie]

True, but I think myself and others can agree it gets annoying and a bit insulting at times, especially when he talks badly of Germanics.. But as you said he's young, it's glad that he is proud of his 'celticness', lol. Atleast he still identifies with his European ancestors and their culture, many people who have had family in America for awhile lose that.

It's something he'll grow out of. I used to think that I had good reason to hate the English when I was a kid too, but then moved to England for 4 years to study. I now think that most English are great and the history between our nations is something that many countries admire. No-one can knock Argyll for his enthusiasm, it's just a bit one sided.

[Wulfhere]

Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland are also Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations but the Germanic elements are stronger. These regions were the main spots of the Celtic La-Tene and Halstatt culture and it's highly probable that the remaining Celtic people mixed with the incoming Germanic tribes. What do you think!? :)

http://www.kriegsreisende.de/antike/antik-img/la-tene-map.jpg
http://oaks.nvg.org/d/eurocelt.jpg

Yes, I think it's highly likely. Not really sure though if the La-Tene and Halstatt cultures were Celtic in the same way that the inhabitants of the British Isles were.

[Treffie]

A very odd thing to say, since the vernacular records of English are older than any Gaelic ones by a long margin.

Written records of English are older, but only a fool would say that spoken English is older than Gaelic. Oh wait! :lightbul:

[The Lawspeaker]

And because they are even in the European Parliament their website (http://www.fnp.nl/?english/provincial_council/programme/) lists their goals in English as well.


The 7 core values of the FNP


Democracy: The FNP believes that governing power is derived from the people. People must be involved as much as possible in the processes of public administration.

Federalism: The FNP sees the state as an organization which provides people and local communities with the right and the means to shape their own environment as much as possible. The FNP wants more power for the provinces, a stronger provincial government and thus a stronger Fryslân.

Internationalism: The FNP focuses on what binds people together and views the world as a federation of communities. Human rights and respect for other cultures and world views occupy centre stage in this.

Language and culture: Language and culture provide a vital contribution to people's identity and, as such, to their sense of well-being. The FNP wants to foster a stronger Frisian identity and, for this reason is commited to the promotion of Frisian language and culture. The FNP sees Fryslân as a place where other languages and cultures such as Bildts and Stellingwarfs are also practiced, respected and appreciated.

Entrepreneurship: The FNP wants to give ample scope to initiative, creativity, responsibility and entrepreneurship, so that people and communities are able to develop themselves fully.

Solidarity: The FNP is a party for the community at large. Maintaining and reinforcing solidarity requires mutual respect and understanding between the rich and the poor, the young and the old, the healthy and the sick, so that no one is marginalised.

Sustainability: The FNP aims to leave a sustainable world for future generations. Instead of depleting resources, the FNP is searching for an economic existence in a form that will guarantee a better equilibrium between consumption and conservation.

It sounds like a party I'd support.. if only they would run outside Frisia as well. Ooh and btw, Wulfhere. The name Friesland to denote the province is outdated (and has been for ages). If I were to use it's name in formal writing I would actually have to write Fryslân.

[Beorn]

I used to think that I had good reason to hate the English when I was a kid too, but then moved to England for 4 years to study. I now think that most English are great

Your people used to think the same of Romans. It seems the empires come and go but your admiration remains. :swl

[Wulfhere]

Written records of English are older, but only a fool would say that spoken English is older than Gaelic. Oh wait! :lightbul:

What are you saying, exactly? That the Ingaevone language didn't exist before it arrived in Britain?

[Treffie]

What are you saying, exactly? That the Ingaevone language didn't exist before it arrived in Britain?

Ingaevone and English are not the same.

[Wulfhere]

Ingaevone and English are not the same.

Q-Celtic and modern Irish are not the same.

[Logan]

Ingaevone and English are not the same.

Might aid the discussion:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v426/n6965/images/nature02029-f1.2.jpg


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v426/n6965/fig_tab/nature02029_F1.html

[Treffie]

Q-Celtic and modern Irish are not the same.

Of course they've changed, but Goidelic languages were spoken here way before the Germanic invasion/settlement. Gaelic was introduced into Scotland at around 400AD. English as we know it didn't develop properly until after the Normans arrived. The oldest form of any old English presence in Scotland was in the 7th century.

[rhiannon]

That they did, the bastards.
I am proud of my ancestry...the good and the bad....even if the pillaging was bad, the very fact the Vikings and their earlier Germanic Brethren, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes did it means it's responsible for a majority of my own Germanic heritage.

Probably also explains why I love the cold and have a strong constitution in the way of our ancestors. Ask my husband...it's ME he comes to when his Mediterranean Ass gets too cold....LOL!!

So, no complaints here. It all happened long ago, anyway:)

[rhiannon]

Neither France nor Spain had a significant Germanic input. Furthermore, Spain has since been degraded by Moorish admixture.

*Ahem* The Normans? The Norse fall under the Germanic Umbrella:)

[Boudica]

That they did, the bastards.

Argyll, you make me want to shoot my $150 tempurpedic pillow.

[Curtis24]

I think you're seeing significance, where there is none. England and its colonies were mosty Germanic in culture, and presence of Celtic ethnicities in the British Isles, and Celtic immigrants in the colonies, hasn't really contributed.

[Boudica]

I think you're seeing significance, where there is none. A great deal of the West's achievements come from the British Isles.
Now, its true that both Celts as well as Germans settled in that area, yet I believe that their confluence has little to do with the shape that British culture has eventually taken.

What are you even talking about? How is there no significance? The only thing that isn't significant pertaining to this thread is your out of the ass post :tongue. First of all, the British Isles is part of what is commonly referred to as "the west", and the British Isles are Celto-Germanic. England-Celto-Germanic, Scotland-Celto-Germanic, England and Scotland are both Celto-Germanic and these two countries are the most successful countries out of the British Isles, and as I said, they are Celto-Germanic.. So wtf's your point?

Also, by "GERMAN" i'm assuming and HOPING that you mean Germanic since "German" is what people of Germany call themselves, while the GERMANICS being discussed in this thread (although the two are connected genetic wise) are widely different. The Germanics being discussed are the Saxons, Angles, and Jutes who bred with the Celts who inhabited present day Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Wales, and Iceland and then settled in these areas.. Now.. Of course, unless your vastly intelligent mind knows something we all don't know, the U.S., and Australia (the other two nations mentioned by the OP) were first colonized by these Celto-Germanic hybrids, they settled in these places and made them into the great Nations they are today.

So, no.. The OP, and others aren't "seeing significance where there is none", because there obviously is significance in regards to this. You are just a retard with a large lack of historical knowledge.

[Boudica]

I think you're seeing significance, where there is none. England and its colonies were mosty Germanic in culture, and presence of Celtic ethnicities in the British Isles, and Celtic immigrants in the colonies, hasn't really contributed.

I guess you realized that what you previously wrote was incredibly retarded, so you decided to edit it, and create this, an even more retarded post... I don't even know where to begin in terms of correcting everything you just said.. I'll let someone else do it.

[rhiannon]

Well...my decidedly Celto-Germanic self naturally wants to agree with this thread in pretty much every way...

However, the highest standard of living is NOT in the British Isles....it's in Scandinavia...Norway and Sweden to be specific, *cough cough*...A Germanic bastion. :noidea:

This fact cannot be ignored. Therefore, I would not consider the Celts any better than the Germanics....and vice versa.

Both groups are pretty awesome in their own right. Again, I am proud to belong to both:)

[Wulfhere]

Of course they've changed, but Goidelic languages were spoken here way before the Germanic invasion/settlement. Gaelic was introduced into Scotland at around 400AD. English as we know it didn't develop properly until after the Normans arrived. The oldest form of any old English presence in Scotland was in the 7th century.

English was changed by the Norman Conquest, but the British language was changed even more by the Roman conquests. It's full of Latin words.

[Treffie]

I think you're seeing significance, where there is none. England and its colonies were mosty Germanic in culture, and presence of Celtic ethnicities in the British Isles, and Celtic immigrants in the colonies, hasn't really contributed.

Seeing as England is historically probably 50% Celtic, it's impossible to say.


English was changed by the Norman Conquest, but the British language was changed even more by the Roman conquests. It's full of Latin words.

Welsh is very Latinised, but to say that it's full of Latin words is pushing it a bit far. It's true that much of Welsh vocabulary takes usage from Latin, but the grammatical structure is completely different. If it was full of Latin words, Welsh would have some mutual intelligibilty with the other Romance languages. We're not discussing Welsh here though, we were discussing Gaelic and English and their presence in Scotland. Nice diversion!

[Ouistreham]

The Netherlands & Belgium too (to an extent). The south always had more Celtic blood then the north.


Quite right. Not by chance, the Frankish kings who shaped modern Europe (Clovis, then Charlemagne) originated from places close to the linguistic border between Germanic and Gallo-Romance.

The same area, which encompasses Northern France and Western Flanders, was also the birthplace of some of the groundbreaking innovations that made medieval civilization different from anything that had existed so far: medieval communes, Gothic architecture, modern polyphonic music, and modern painting.

[Wulfhere]

Quite right. Not by chance, the Frankish kings who shaped modern Europe (Clovis, then Charlemagne) originated from places close to the linguistic border between Germanic and Gallo-Romance.

The same area, which encompasses Northern France and Western Flanders, was also the birthplace of some of the groundbreaking innovations that made medieval civilization different from anything that had existed so far: medieval communes, Gothic architecture, modern polyphonic music, and modern painting.

The French have a Celtic substratum with a wholly Romanised culture. They are neither Germanic, nor even Celtic in any meaningful sense.

[Argyll]

Just like we all were - he's young and impressionable. When he gets to my age, he'll be bitter and twisted. I know what years I'd prefer.



Gaelic predates English by about 1000 years

I've never stated to be pure Celtic.......

[Hevneren]

Well...my decidedly Celto-Germanic self naturally wants to agree with this thread in pretty much every way...

However, the highest standard of living is NOT in the British Isles....it's in Scandinavia...Norway and Sweden to be specific, *cough cough*...A Germanic bastion. :noidea:

This fact cannot be ignored. Therefore, I would not consider the Celts any better than the Germanics....and vice versa.

Both groups are pretty awesome in their own right. Again, I am proud to belong to both:)

Diplomatic as always! But yes, I agree. There's so much "we're better than you!" mentality, and people insulting each other's ethnicity. I think there's something good in all of the European cultures (even Albania :p ), so why not give each other some credit?

[Wulfhere]

Since Germanic and Celtic hybrids clearly do produce some of the most successful nations in the world, why should this be? What are the stereotypical qualities of these groups? Here are some examples.

Germanic: Disciplined. Celtic: Love fighting.
Germanic: Emotionless. Celtic: Highly emotional.
Germanic: Intellectual. Celtic: Artistic.

These qualities appear to complement each other.

[Ouistreham]

About Normandy (founded just 1200 years ago this autumn!), many people ignore that there are two Normandies, and that the Celtic factor played a defining role:

• Upper Normandy underwent strong Frankish influenced, then massive Viking settlements as testified by the density of Norse place names. In some cases even minor rivers were renamed.

• Lower Normandy in the West had a much stronger Celtic substrate, received much less Frankish invaders (they got a number of Saxons instead), and Viking presence was restricted to the coastal areas.

But strangely, Upper Normandy was Frenchified first. In his youth, William the Bastard had to be sent to Bayeux, in the West, to learn the Norse language because in Rouen it had died out by the early 11th century.

BTW William's favourite capital was not Rouen but Caen, which is rather on the Lower Norman side. Most barons and soldiers who accompanied William to Hastings were Low Normans, and those who conqueered Sicily and Southern Italy were all from there.

Vernacular architecture still clearly shows the divide. Taditional Upper Norman cottages are derived from the Viking longhouse:

http://s1.e-monsite.com/2008/11/23/11/45854108automne-chaumiere-001-jpg.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Chaumière_normande.jpg/800px-Chaumière_normande.jpg

In Lower Normandy, there are much less half-timbered buildings, popular stone architecture has an unmistakeable Celtic vibe:

http://storage.canalblog.com/39/63/720620/54376647.jpg

http://photos.itea.fr/photos/gites50/G/photo/G228.jpg

http://photos.itea.fr/photos/gites50/G/photo/G184.jpg

The Norman invasion of 1066 was arguably the last big "nation-making" Germanic invasion in history and one of the most influential ever (even though the language it carried was not Germanic), but people of Celtic origin played a chief role in it (without mentioning the many soldiers of fortune from Brittany who joined William to claim their part of the spoils).

[Tchek]

Quite right. Not by chance, the Frankish kings who shaped modern Europe (Clovis, then Charlemagne) originated from places close to the linguistic border between Germanic and Gallo-Romance.

The same area, which encompasses Northern France and Western Flanders, was also the birthplace of some of the groundbreaking innovations that made medieval civilization different from anything that had existed so far: medieval communes, Gothic architecture, modern polyphonic music, and modern painting.


See, you're right in saying that Belgium being quintessential Celto-germanic is a center piece of western civilazation, but this is true for Wallonia as much as Flanders... so the area encompasses more than just northern France and western Flanders. (for exemple André Gretry and Cesar Frank without which French classical music would be nowhere were born in Liege, as well as Pepin the Short, Charles Martel... Clovis born in Tournai)

[The Lawspeaker]

See, you're right in saying that Belgium being quintessential Celto-germanic is a center piece of western civilazation, but this is true for Wallonia as much as Flanders... so the area encompasses more than just northern France and western Flanders. (for exemple André Gretry and Cesar Frank without which French classical music would be nowhere were born in Liege, as well as Pepin the Short, Charles Martel... Clovis born in Tournai)
Not just Belgium. But also Noord-Brabant and probably Nederlands-Limburg. So we could actually refer to the Greater Netherlands (the Netherlands & Belgium) as a Celto-Germanic entity. This is the map that shows the difference between Northern Netherlands and Southern Netherlands culture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/NorthernDutch.png

[Wulfhere]

See, you're right in saying that Belgium being quintessential Celto-germanic is a center piece of western civilazation, but this is true for Wallonia as much as Flanders... so the area encompasses more than just northern France and western Flanders. (for exemple André Gretry and Cesar Frank without which French classical music would be nowhere were born in Liege, as well as Pepin the Short, Charles Martel... Clovis born in Tournai)

Belgium is not Celto-Germanic, but Romano-Germanic.

[The Lawspeaker]

Belgium is not Celto-Germanic, but Romano-Germanic.
And yet again. You come up with stuff you haven't got a clue about. Stick to knee-bends.

The Romanche thing is just the language.

[gandalf]

Yes, that's what you say. But there are many Frisians who want independence. And they should have it. No Ingaevone should ever have to be subject to foreigners.

Yes Wulfhere , we should make Frisia separate from Holland ,

and give it to England of Germany :D:D:D

[gandalf]

For every white looking Spaniard you could find half a dozen North African looking ones. And even the pale ones have that greasy dago look. Sorry, but in all things that are important, such as race, I go by instinct.

Typical SKADI attitude ... :rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes Wulfhere , we should make Frisia separate from Holland ,

and give it to England of Germany :D:D:D
LOL that.s why the FNP lost the elections. They don't want independence but federalism. And so does the FNP btw so if federalists lose the elections.. then that means that maybe your Oera Linda fantasy doesn't hold up, Wulfhere.

And Gandalf. Nah a federal Netherlands would be much better.

[Wulfhere]

And yet again. You come up with stuff you haven't got a clue about. Stick to knee-bends.

The Romanche thing is just the language.


On the contrary, the culture of the Romance countries has been thoroughly Romanised. As proof, look at the actual surviving Celtic cultures in the British Isles and Brittany, which bear no relation to Romance culture.

[Wulfhere]

Yes Wulfhere , we should make Frisia separate from Holland ,

and give it to England of Germany :D:D:D

I would certainly support an Ingaevone confederation, which includes all the English kingdoms plus Frisia.

[The Lawspeaker]

On the contrary, the culture of the Romance countries has been thoroughly Romanised. As proof, look at the actual surviving Celtic cultures in the British Isles and Brittany, which bear no relation to Romance culture.
Wallonia, Flanders and your country have nothing in common. Not too much of the Celtic heritage remains other then the fact they are less reserved then their Germanic counterparts and they are far more musical.


The entire attitude towards life is less Calvinistic and strict then in the purely Germanic north but then again you wouldn't know.

[The Lawspeaker]

I would certainly support an Ingaevone confederation, which includes all the English kingdoms plus Frisia.
Frisia is not English.

[Wulfhere]

Frisia is not English.


But it is Ingaevone, as are the English. Even the "Ing" in Ingaevone is thought to be related to the "Eng" in English.

[The Lawspeaker]

But it is Ingaevone, as are the English. Even the "Ing" in Ingaevone is thought to be related to the "Eng" in English.
There is no such thing as Ingaevonic today. Deal with it.

[Wulfhere]

There is no such thing as Ingaevonic today. Deal with it.

There is most certainly such a thing. It's a linguistic group, otherwise known as North Sea Germanic.

[The Lawspeaker]

There is most certainly such a thing. It's a linguistic group, otherwise known as North Sea Germanic.
Deal with it. There is no such thing as Ingaevonic. Nor is there an Ingaevonic people, an Ingaevonic language, Ingaevonic culture.

It doesn't exist. Grow up and deal with it. I have been in the north and I have been to England. They bear little resemblance.

The Angles (which were part of the Anglo-Saxons) came from Northern Germany... and not from this region.

[Wulfhere]

Deal with it. There is no such thing as Ingaevonic. Nor is there an Ingaevonic people, an Ingaevonic language, Ingaevonic culture.

It doesn't exist. Grow up and deal with it.


Please check your facts, and deal with it yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Germanic

[The Lawspeaker]

Please check your facts, and deal with it yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Germanic
That would include the Hollanders and those speaking a Hollandic language (like here in Utrecht). You have beaten your own argument. I happen to feel no kinship to you. I feel kinship to other Dutch, to Lower Saxons, to Frisians (yes I have minor Frisian blood), to Flanders, Wallonia, to the Afrikaners and to a lesser extent to colonial Dutch and Germans.

We are all part of that little corner of Northwestern Europe known was the Low Lands. These people are my kin. Anglo-Saxon culture and Frisian culture (or Dutch culture) bear little resemblance (if you scratch beneath the surface). I always noticed that when I stayed for a couple of days in England. Things seem the same at first but they are completely 180 degrees different.

[Wulfhere]

That would include the Hollanders and those speaking a Hollandic language (like here in Utrecht). You have beaten your own argument. I happen to feel no kinship to you. I feel kinship to other Dutch, to Frisians (yes I have minor Frisian blood), to Flanders, Wallonia, to the Afrikaners and to a lesser extent to colonial Dutch and Germans.


No, Dutch is not an Ingaevonic language - that's the whole point. And please stop calling the Frisians Dutch, it's insulting.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, Dutch is not an Ingaevonic language - that's the whole point. And please stop calling the Frisians Dutch, it's insulting.
Stop bullshitting yourself. Frisians are fellow, fellow Nederlanders and the Frisian language has much more in common with Dutch then it has with English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages) and I can read some Frisian while you can't. They are my fellow citizens and you stop telling me who I should consider kin.

Maybe it's insulting to you but I don't care about your feelings. You're not Frisian so why the fuck should I care ?

[Wulfhere]

Stop bullshitting yourself. Frisians are fellow, fellow Nederlanders. They are my fellow citizens and you stop telling me who I should consider kin.

Maybe it's insulting to you but I don't care about your feelings. You're not Frisian so why the fuck should I care ?

I care because the Frisians are my Ingaevonic kin.

Calling a Frisian Dutch is about as insulting as calling a Welshman English.

[The Lawspeaker]

I care because the Frisians are my Ingaevonic kin.

Calling a Frisian Dutch is about as insulting as calling a Welshman English.
They are not your kin. They are Dutch citizens. Part of a minority but they are Dutch. This country is a country of minorities btw: Lower Saxons in the East, Limburgians in the South-East. The Zeeuwen consider themselves a minority as well... and we treat everyone with equal reference and respect.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Fries_hindeloopen.JPG

Does this look like English to you ? Can you read this (http://www.fnp.nl/) without translator ?

[Wulfhere]

They are not your kin. They are Dutch citizens. Part of a minority but they are Dutch. This country is a country of minorities btw: Lower Saxons in the East, Limburgians in the South. The Zeeuwen consider themselves a minority as well... and we treat everyone with equal reference and respect.


We are indeed kin, so stop trying to tell us that we're not. Of course, the Dutch have been trying to suppress Frisian identity for centuries.

[Wulfhere]

Does this look like English to you ? Can you read this (http://www.fnp.nl/) without translator ?


It does look like English, yes. Not English, but like it.

Could you understand broard Geordie, I wonder?

[The Lawspeaker]

We are indeed kin, so stop trying to tell us that we're not. Of course, the Dutch have been trying to suppress Frisian identity for centuries.
You lost the debate as we haven't as Frisia was a founding member of the Dutch republic and arguably the most democratic province of them all with universal male suffrage for a part of the 17th century.

Frisian identity only got suppressed during the 19th century but so was the Dutch regional identity. Everything was pressed into an Orangist mold. My grandmother would not have been allowed to speak dialect when she was young (and neither was my mother btw.. even I was discouraged from speaking it. And I am not from Frisia. That part of the family is Brabantic).

Frisians are not your kin and will never be your kin.

And if you try to claim that Hollanders and Frisians are enemies and all that: fuck off. In the Middle Ages everyone was fighting everyone. The hatred between the big three Holland, Guelders and Brabant was legendary.

[Wulfhere]

You lost the debate as we haven't. Frisian identity only got suppressed during the 19th century but so was the Dutch regional identity. Everything was pressed into an Orangist mold. My grandmother would not have been allowed to speak dialect when she was young (and neither was my mother btw.. even I was discouraged from speaking it. And I am not from Frisia. That part of the family is Brabantic).

Frisians are not your kin and will never be your kin.


I know who my kin are.

[The Lawspeaker]

I know who my kin are.
You don't. You have never been to Frisia. You have only read then Oera Linda.

[Wulfhere]

You don't. You have never been to Frisia. You have only read then Oera Linda.


I have been to Frisia.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have been to Frisia.
You haven't. Because if you would have been there you would know that people are bi-lingual, the press is bi-lingual and the Frisian blood is very widespread amongst the other Dutch. So.. in a sense a large percentage of the Dutch people has Frisian blood.


Also: the Frisian province has perhaps the best minority situation in the country. We've had a Frisian prime minister, we've had Frisian ministers, Frisian musicians and bands, Frisian writers and poets, teachers etc. For the rest they are just from "up north" -- and considered countrymen like the rest of us.

One of the presenters of the weather channel is a Frisian - Piet Paulusma. His traditional greeting has spread throughout the public and when there is an Elfstedentocht there is a little outburst of flagwaving but the other Dutch take to it with exactly the same enthusiasm.

[Wulfhere]

You haven't. Because if you would have been there you would know that people are bi-lingual, the press is bi-lingual and the Frisian blood is very widespread amongst the other Dutch. So.. in a sense a large percentage of the Dutch people has Frisian blood.


Also: the Frisian province has perhaps the best minority situation in the country. We've had a Frisian prime minister, we've had Frisian ministers, Frisian writers, teachers etc. For the rest they are just from "up north" -- and considered countrymen like the rest of us.


I have indeed been there, and I also know that many Frisians are bilingual. Just like many Welsh people. Wales and Frisia are in very similar situations. We've had Welsh prime ministers and politicians, and after centuries of being suppressed, the Welsh language is now subsidised.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have indeed been there, and I also know that many Frisians are bilingual. Just like many Welsh people. Wales and Frisia are in very similar situations. We've had Welsh prime ministers and politicians, and after centuries of being suppressed, the Welsh language is now subsidised.
Frisian isn't subsidised because it is actually being spoken. The only thing that needs to be corrected is that it's teaching should be mandatory instead of optional and in Frisian schools it doesn't seem to be too uncommon for local children to speak Frisian with their teachers. I have seen it in Limburg so it's probably in Frisia as well (I never went to school in Frisia so).

Frisia and Wales have nothing in common btw as Wales was always oppressed. Frisia is a founding member of the Dutch Republic and signed the Union of Utrecht and the Oath of Abjuration (declaration of independence) along with the rest of us.

[The Lawspeaker]

But since Wulfhere speaks Frisian, is Frisian and has been in Frisia and feels himself so connected to the Frisians he might just as well read this Frisian article (http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fryske_myte).


Other then you.. I can read and understand it without translator. Alright.. I have to read twice sometimes but I understand the message. Now let's see how you do it:



De Fryske myte giet oer de komôf fan de Friezen. Yn de fantastyske Fryske skiedskriuwerij (ein midsieuwen en 16e ieu) stamme de Friezen streekrjocht ôf fan de Frisii dy't troch Romeinske en iermidsieuwske boarnen neamd wurde. Fierders soenen de Friezen altyd yn frijheid en lykweardich libbe hawwe en soe de Fryske identiteit, kultuer en taal sawat net feroare wêze yn al dy jierren. In bekend foarbyld bygelyks dêr't de myte yn werjûn wurdt is Croniicke ende warachtige Beschryvinghe van Vrieslant fan Ocko Scharlensis. Fan it Oera Linda Boek wurdt algemien oannomd dat it in ferfalsking is. In oare bekende myte is de Bataafske myte dy't oanhongen waard tidens de sechtjinde en santjinde ieu.

In ferbân tusken Frisii en Friezen liket foar de hân te lizzen. Dochs wurdt dat byld tsjintwurdich net langer mear oanhongen. Dêr't foar de Romeinske tiid sawol argeologyske as skriftlike oanwizings besteane foar in frij tichte befolking, bestiet der yn de oerlevere boarnen in gat fanôf de fjirde ieu. De Frisii-Minores en Frisii-Majores wurden fan dan ôf net mear neamd. De Friezen wurde foar it earst wer neamd by de ynfal troch de Deenske kening Chochilac of Hugleik yn de Ryndelta (sirka 525), in foarboade fan de lettere Wytsingestrooptochten. Dizze lêste Friezen wurde ek wol Anglo-Friezen neamd.

[Wulfhere]

Frisian isn't subsidised because it is actually being spoken. The only thing that needs to be corrected is that it's teaching should be mandatory instead of optional and in Frisian schools it doesn't seem to be too uncommon for local children to speak Frisian with their teachers. I have seen it in Limburg so it's probably in Frisia as well (I never went to school in Frisia so).

Frisia and Wales have nothing in common btw as Wales was always oppressed. Frisia is a founding member of the Dutch Republic and signed the Union of Utrecht and the Oath of Abjuration (declaration of independence) along with the rest of us.


Wales and Frisia are in very similar situations. Wales is no longer suppressed. Apart from the bit about the Dutch Republic, everything you've said about the status of Frisian exactly parallels the status of Welsh.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wales and Frisia are in very similar situations. Wales is no longer suppressed. Apart from the bit about the Dutch Republic, everything you've said about the status of Frisian exactly parallels the status of Welsh.
Bullshit. Then you have never been to Wales either.

[Wulfhere]

But since Wulfhere speaks Frisian, is Frisian and has been in Frisia and feels himself so connected to the Frisians he might just as well read this Frisian article (http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fryske_myte).


Other then you.. I can read and understand it without translator. Alright.. I have to read twice sometimes but I understand the message. Now let's see how you do it:



De Fryske myte giet oer de komôf fan de Friezen. Yn de fantastyske Fryske skiedskriuwerij (ein midsieuwen en 16e ieu) stamme de Friezen streekrjocht ôf fan de Frisii dy't troch Romeinske en iermidsieuwske boarnen neamd wurde. Fierders soenen de Friezen altyd yn frijheid en lykweardich libbe hawwe en soe de Fryske identiteit, kultuer en taal sawat net feroare wêze yn al dy jierren. In bekend foarbyld bygelyks dêr't de myte yn werjûn wurdt is Croniicke ende warachtige Beschryvinghe van Vrieslant fan Ocko Scharlensis. Fan it Oera Linda Boek wurdt algemien oannomd dat it in ferfalsking is. In oare bekende myte is de Bataafske myte dy't oanhongen waard tidens de sechtjinde en santjinde ieu.

In ferbân tusken Frisii en Friezen liket foar de hân te lizzen. Dochs wurdt dat byld tsjintwurdich net langer mear oanhongen. Dêr't foar de Romeinske tiid sawol argeologyske as skriftlike oanwizings besteane foar in frij tichte befolking, bestiet der yn de oerlevere boarnen in gat fanôf de fjirde ieu. De Frisii-Minores en Frisii-Majores wurden fan dan ôf net mear neamd. De Friezen wurde foar it earst wer neamd by de ynfal troch de Deenske kening Chochilac of Hugleik yn de Ryndelta (sirka 525), in foarboade fan de lettere Wytsingestrooptochten. Dizze lêste Friezen wurde ek wol Anglo-Friezen neamd.

I never said I could speak Frisian. I can't speak Geordie, either.

[Wulfhere]

Bullshit. Then you have never been to Wales either.

I have been to Wales dozens and dozens of times.

[The Lawspeaker]

I never said I could speak Frisian. I can't speak Geordie, either.
See. How you get crushed.

[Wulfhere]

See. How you get crushed.

Eh?

[The Lawspeaker]

Eh?
Because you're constantly exposed to be a rather blatant liar that actually doesn't know shit about the historical situation. The Oera Linda Book was written in Frisia in the 19th century. Just as a hobby, a fantasy at a part that the whole of the Netherlands was subjected to cultural genocide. (Holland as much as Frisia) and the book has long since exposed to be just that: a nice hobby, a fake. A fantasy.

While even my own generation learned that Frisian presence of what is now Frisia has always been consistent and very much the same archaeological research has long shown that there is a gap in the 4th, 5th century. So the Old Frisians did move along during the Great Migration. And the Frisian myth is as a myth as the Batavian myth that we know in the West of the country where I grew up.

Read my lips: the Frisii are not the ancestors of the Frisians. The Batavians are not the ancestors of the Dutch, the Tubantii are not the ancestors of the Saxons in the East, the Belgae are not the ancestors of the Belgians. It's nice for folklore but that's that.

[Wulfhere]

Because you're constantly exposed to be a rather blatant liar that actually doesn't know shit about the historical situation. The Oera Linda Book was written in Frisia in the 19th century. Just as a hobby, a fantasy at a part that the whole of the Netherlands was subjected to cultural genocide. (Holland as much as Frisia) and the book has long since exposed to be just that: a nice hobby, a fake. A fantasy.

While even my generation learned that Frisian inhabitable of what is now Frisia has always been consistent and very much the same archaeological research has long shown that there is a gap in the 4th, 5th century. So the Old Frisians did move along during the Great Migration.


I'm fully aware of the Oera Linda Book's provenance. A great deal more than you are, in fact.

If they moved, they came back - otherwise, where did the language come from? But it's just Dutch propaganda I'm afraid, trying to deny the Frisians a history of their own.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm fully aware of the Oera Linda Book's provenance. A great deal more than you are, in fact.

If they moved, they came back - otherwise, where did the language come from? But it's just Dutch propaganda I'm afraid, trying to deny the Frisians a history of their own.
And in the meanwhile denying ourselves our own history ? Idiot.. did you know that Holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland) has a Frisian history and that Hollanders are for a part West Frisians.

West Frisian is still being spoken in West Frisia btw but you wouldn't even know where that is.



Until the 9th century, the inhabitants of the area that became Holland were Frisians. The area was part of Frisia. At the end of the 9th century, Holland became a separate county in the Holy Roman Empire. The first count of Holland known about with certainty was Dirk I, who ruled (also as count of Frisia) from 896 to 931. He was succeeded by a long line of counts in the House of Holland. When John I, count of Holland, died childless in 1299, the county was inherited by John II of Avesnes, count of Hainaut. By the time of William V (House of Wittelsbach; 1354–1388) the count of Holland was also the count of Hainaut, Flanders and Zealand.

In this time a part of Frisia, West Friesland, was conquered (as a result, most provincial institutions, including the States of Holland and West Frisia, would for centuries refer to "Holland and West Frisia" as a unit). The Hook and Cod wars started around this time and ended when the countess of Holland, Jacoba or Jacqueline was forced to give up Holland to the Burgundian Philip III, known as Philip the Good, in 1432.

The last count of Holland was Philip III, better known as Philip II king of Spain. He was abolished in 1581 by the so-called Act of Abjuration, although the kings of Spain continued to carry the titular appellation of count of Holland until the Peace of Münster signed in 1648.





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/Holland_%26_West_Vriesland.JPG
Depiction of old Dutch words starting "De Staten van Hollandt ende West-Vrieslandt" (1654)

[Wulfhere]

Read my lips: the Frisii are not the ancestors of the Frisians. The Batavians are not the ancestors of the Dutch, the Tubantii are not the ancestors of the Saxons in the East, the Belgae are not the ancestors of the Belgians. It's nice for folklore but that's that.


You're right about the Dutch, at least. Their ancestors are the Franks - constant enemies of the Frisians.

[Wulfhere]

And in the meanwhile denying ourselves our own history ? Idiot.. did you know that Holland has a Frisian history and that Hollanders are for a part West Frisians.

West Frisian is still being spoken in West Frisia btw but you wouldn't even know where that is.

I know exactly where it is. Part of what is now North Holland.

[The Lawspeaker]

I know exactly where it is. Part of what is now North Holland.
You just looked it up. :D See how you just keep getting owned ? Dutch have Frisian blood. We are not two separate peoples.

Let's put it the way Dutch history books always does. What are Dutch ? Franks, Frisians and Saxons. That's who we are.

[Wulfhere]

You just looked it up. :D See how you just keep getting owned ? Dutch have Frisian blood. We are not two separate peoples.

No, I already knew. Remember I've written two books on the subject.

Yes, the Dutch have some Frisian blood, just like the English have some Celtic blood.

[The Lawspeaker]

You're right about the Dutch, at least. Their ancestors are the Franks - constant enemies of the Frisians.
And again.. you keep on fucking it up. Franks were the enemies of the Frisians because of religion. Because of Rome. They are two Germanic peoples - ffs idiot.

[Wulfhere]

And again.. you keep on fucking it up. Franks were the enemies of the Frisians because of religion. Because of Rome. They are two Germanic peoples - ffs idiot.


Did I ever say they weren't both Germanic?

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I already knew. Remember I've written two books on the subject.

Yes, the Dutch have some Frisian blood, just like the English have some Celtic blood.
Then your books are complete dribble because you don't know what you're talking about. You never bothered to ask a simple Frisian or other Dutchman about his opinion. You stupid outsider: you could have just asked anyone with a slight knowledge of history and his heritage but no..

The Celtic influence in England is scant. In the Netherlands Frisian heritage is well clearly visible. Just look around at the names: -sma, -stra, -ma. Not just Frisians have these names. They are throughout society.

[Wulfhere]

Then your books are complete dribble because you don't know what you're talking about. You never bothered to ask a simple Frisian or other Dutchman about his opinion. You stupid outsider: you could have just asked anyone with a slight knowledge of history and his heritage but no..

The Celtic influence in England is scant. In the Netherlands Frisian heritage is well clearly visible. Just look around at the names: -sma, -stra, -ma. Not just Frisians have these names. They are throughout society.


There's a very large amount of Celtic influence in England. Names of places, for example, just as in your example.

I've spoken to a very large number of Frisians, but why would I want to speak to their oppressors, the Dutch?

[The Lawspeaker]

There's a very large amount of Celtic influence in England. Names of places, for example, just as in your example.

I've spoken to a very large number of Frisians, but why would I want to speak to their oppressors, the Dutch?
Fucking fool. We are not their oppressors. How could we be their oppressors ? We would be oppressing ourselves.

My own ancestry which is not uncommon at all:


Meta-Ethnicity: Germanic
Ethnicity: Boche du Nord
Subrace: Nordid/Borreby and some Faelid
Ancestry: The Greater Netherlands (including Flanders and Frisia) and the Kingdom of France.

[Wulfhere]

Fucking fool. We are not their oppressors. How could we be their oppressors ? We would be oppressing ourselves.

My own ancestry which is not uncommon at all:




Many English people have some Welsh ancestry. It doesn't make them Welsh.

Sorry, arguing with you is like trying to outwit a jellyfish. There isn't even a brain to stun.

[The Lawspeaker]

Many English people have some Welsh ancestry. It doesn't make them Welsh.

Sorry, arguing with you is like trying to outwit a jellyfish. There isn't even a brain to stun.
LOL. You have been exposed for being an idiot that has no knowledge whatsoever about the subject. Do Welsh have their own political parties ? What did they win in the Welsh assembly ?

[Wulfhere]

LOL. You have been exposed for being an idiot that has no knowledge whatsoever about the subject. Do Welsh have their own political parties ? What did they win in the Welsh assembly ?


Yes, they do. I'm not sure of the figures without looking them up, but Welsh nationalists have a sizeable number of seats in the assembly.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, they do. I'm not sure of the figures without looking them up, but Welsh nationalists have a sizeable number of seats in the assembly.
No. Come on. Show the figures. NOW.

Because I know my figures. The FNP has 5 seats out of 43. Used to have 7 (I always thought 8, my mistake) in the Frisian Provincial Council or Provinsjale Steaten (Provinciale Staten in Dutch). The FNP (by my knowledge) holds 1 seat in the Dutch Senate though it's membership of the Independent Senate Group (OSF).

Frisia has 6 Frisian members (http://www.lc.nl/friesland/regio/article11472201.ece) in the Lower House belonging to several parties. If it wasn't for the FNP not going into national politics they would have been in the Lower House themselves -- and not just because of Frisian votes.

[Wulfhere]

No. Come on. Show the figures. NOW.

Because I know my figures. The FNP has 5 seats out of 43. Used to have 7 (I always thought 8, my mistake) in the Frisian Provincial Council or Provinsjale Steaten (Provinciale Staten in Dutch). The FNP (by my knowledge) holds 1 seat in the Dutch Senate though it's membership of the Independent Senate Group (OSF).


Plaid Cymru have 11 seats out of a total of 60.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_assembly

[The Lawspeaker]

Plaid Cymru have 11 seats out of a total of 60.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_assembly
Well well. So the FNP only has themselves to blame. If the FNP would have run other Dutch would have voted for them as well as a lot of people are not happy with the idea of unifying provinces (which is now an issue here but you wouldn't know that).

And here is a potential FNP-voter.

[Albion]

Their predecessors, the Romans, realised that there was gold. The Vikings didn't

Because there wasn't a great lot left after the Romans had finished washing away your hillsides. ;)


Among the top Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations:

- France (I suppose it's yet cited across the thread)

- Spain (if someone doubt about it maybe he has not read History enough).

More like Romanic-Celtic with a drop of Germanic.


The Netherlands & Belgium too (to an extent). The south always had more Celtic blood then the north.

:thumb001:


No, I wasn't. The term Anglo-Saxon is usually understood to include those.

Indeed. Anglo-Saxon-Frisian-Jute + possibly Franks and Thuringians doesn't have a very good ring to it. Angles and Saxons were the predominant tribes.


The English-speaking policy in Scotland had been a policy of the Scottish monarchs long before we annexed it.

We didn't annex it, we forced it into a shotgun marriage. :rolleyes: But Scotland already had Scots as the official language anyway, the Lowland Scots were the ones to force feed it to the Highlanders not us.


I don't think they would feel kinship with you. And I know quite a few Frisians.

Yeah, I doubt many English people would to the Frisians. I'd say most of the population probably don't even know there's anything that makes them any different from the rest of the Dutch.


It's just a damn good mix, I suppose. I think that both of these backgrounds mix together in a very positive way.

Agreed. Both are very good civilisations.


Do the Scots now have the right to use the original Scottish names on road signs ?

Yes.


Are there separate Scots language broadcasting cooperations ?

No, it is treated as a dialect of English and despised by many Scottish Nationalists who treat it as evil, foreign, English-influence.

Scotland has put a lot of effort into preserving Gaelic though and has BBC Alba for Gaelic speakers.

It is not up to the UK to create separate TV channels for Scots speakers - it is up to Scotland or the BBC.


Do the Scots speak Scottish or Scots Gaelic in their parliament ?

Yes.


There is currently a policy of offering Frisian lessons to whoever moves to Frisia and there were ideas of making it mandatory for those immigrants that move to Frisia to learn Frisian as well as Dutch.

Very good.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Exmorra_02.JPG

Coincidence? I think not. 'Moor' can refer to a Moorland in the modern sense or a marsh in the archaic, southern sense.

http://www.simonthurgoodimages.co.uk/gallery/images_thumbs/exmoor1.jpg


Bullshit.

No, it is partially true. The Kingdom of Scotland adopted the Scots "language" as it's official language very early on. And as we all know, Scots is basically a dialect of English.


Gaelic predates English by about 1000 years

But Gaelic wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Dark Ages was it? ... About the time some Irish pirates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata) and Anglo-Saxons arrived. Try again... :coffee:

We could argue that Welsh is actually the native language of Scotland since Cumbric is often considered a dialect of Welsh and Pictish has failed to survive. But that is just silly.


The Scottish state is an offshoot of the Northumbrian English state. Please check it out.

I wouldn't say that. Scotland formed from Dal Riata, a Gaelic state, but the Northumbrian area came to dominate as Scotland's core. Even Edinburgh was Northumbrian.


Might aid the discussion:

Albanian is clubbed with Indian languages!


England and its colonies were mosty Germanic in culture

You have a point. Celts left little in the way of culture, just genes mostly.


The French have a Celtic substratum with a wholly Romanised culture. They are neither Germanic, nor even Celtic in any meaningful sense.

Agreed.


Germanic: Disciplined. Celtic: Love fighting.
Germanic: Emotionless. Celtic: Highly emotional.
Germanic: Intellectual. Celtic: Artistic.

Sadly the UK didn't inherit Germanic discipline when it came to the economy.


Belgium is not Celto-Germanic, but Romano-Germanic.

Flanders is certainly Celto-Germanic even if Wallonia isn't.

[Albion]

I would certainly support an Ingaevone confederation, which includes all the English kingdoms plus Frisia.

Complete nonsense like your Mercian hippy club.


Wallonia, Flanders and your country have nothing in common.

They have a bit in common, but it's mostly Pan-Germanic stuff anyway. To unite any continental Germanic country with England would be absurd.

England is different from other Germanic nations - neither Scandinavian, Benelux or one of the German states. An independent union of the West and North Germanics who settled southern Great Britain.


Deal with it. There is no such thing as Ingaevonic. Nor is there an Ingaevonic people, an Ingaevonic language, Ingaevonic culture.

Nor Irmiones or Istaevons for that matter. England and Frisia simply represent the last Ingaevonic-speakers, nothing more.


The Angles (which were part of the Anglo-Saxons) came from Northern Germany... and not from this region.

Yeah, we should claim Angeln. :wink


I always noticed that when I stayed for a couple of days in England. Things seem the same at first but they are completely 180 degrees different.

What things are different?


No, Dutch is not an Ingaevonic language - that's the whole point. And please stop calling the Frisians Dutch, it's insulting.

To who? You? :D Frisians are Dutch. The Dutch are a union of different Germanic tribes like the English and Germans:


Dutch (West Germanic) - High Germans (Irmiones) + Low Germans (Istaevons) + Frisians (Ingaevons)
Germans (West Germanic) - same as Dutch but the two went their separte ways
English (West + North Germanic) - Anglo-Saxons (Ingaevons) + Norse settlement (North Germanics)



I can read some Frisian while you can't. They are my fellow citizens and you stop telling me who I should consider kin.

:thumb001:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Fries_hindeloopen.JPG
Does this look like English to you ? Can you read this without translator ?

Hylpen? A hill? (English 'Hill', English toponymic from Celtic 'Pen' - a hill - thus 'Hill hill') - I'm wrong aren't I? :rolleyes:
I highly doubt the Celtic word for hill would show up in Frisia.

Nijefurd - Ford over the river Nije?

30 zone :D

Friese steden - Frisian Stead (archaic English for 'house')

Wolkom / Welkom - Welcome? :D


Also: the Frisian province has perhaps the best minority situation in the country.

It would be nice if as much interest was shown towards the Saxon and Frankish areas.


Bullshit. Then you have never been to Wales either.

Wales and Mercia are neighbours, practically everyone in the English West Midlands has been there at some time in their life. :D
We can even pick up their awful TV channel, S4C. Newyddion is quite good when you type in 888 on Teletext (Translate :rolleyes: ) but the rest is rubbish.


and very much the same archaeological research has long shown that there is a gap in the 4th, 5th century.

When the Frisii were forced out by floods, some leaving for Kent and other parts of the Netherlands. When they returned they mixed with incoming Saxons but the Frisii traits prevailed and we ended up with the modern Frisians as a result of this.


Read my lips: the Frisii are not the ancestors of the Frisians. The Batavians are not the ancestors of the Dutch, the Tubantii are not the ancestors of the Saxons in the East, the Belgae are not the ancestors of the Belgians. It's nice for folklore but that's that.

Bingo


The Celtic influence in England is scant.

Indeed. England's culture is entirely a product of Germanics - Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, but with latter very minor additions by the Normans.


There's a very large amount of Celtic influence in England. Names of places, for example, just as in your example.

Lets be honest Wulfie. Apart from place names and genes, what is the Celtic legacy in England? Answer: Not a lot.


Many English people have some Welsh ancestry. It doesn't make them Welsh.

Not many at all really. More have Irish than Welsh.


Do Welsh have their own political parties ?

Plenty.


What did they win in the Welsh assembly ?

I'm not sure, I don't pay much attention to their boring politics. I think Liebour won though, but Plaid Cymru are a large faction too.

A Welsh Liebour MP recently spoke kindly about communism. Nothing changes in good 'ol Liebour. :rolleyes2:

[Treffie]

Not many at all really. More have Irish than Welsh.



According to the Office for Nat Stats, more than you would think. These figures are for people born in other countries, but moved to England.

Scotland 794,577
Northern Ireland 215,124
Wales 609,711
Republic of Ireland 460,287

Link (http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do;jsessionid=RVmpT2GdhvljQ9cK1Zv0Bm q6gyF2kpCWPLLTLQjqdqM6qQKJLsjC!-1784625453!1321092125400?a=3&b=276743&c=London&d=13&e=13&g=325264&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1321092125400&enc=1&dsFamilyId=85&nsjs=true&nsck=true&nssvg=false&nswid=1352)

From this link (http://surname.sofeminine.co.uk/w/surnames/most-common-surnames-in-great-britain.html), you can calculate how many people in England have Welsh surnames, 5 in the top 10 are of Welsh origin.

BTW, I will agree with you on something, Welsh politics is extremely boring. I quite like the leader of the Welsh Lib Dems though, who's my brother-in-law's cousin :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38774000/jpg/_38774651_kirsty150.jpg

[Albion]

According to the Office for Nat Stats, more than you would think. These figures are for people born in other countries, but moved to England.

Scotland 794,577
Northern Ireland 215,124
Wales 609,711
Republic of Ireland 460,287

Link (http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do;jsessionid=RVmpT2GdhvljQ9cK1Zv0Bm q6gyF2kpCWPLLTLQjqdqM6qQKJLsjC!-1784625453!1321092125400?a=3&b=276743&c=London&d=13&e=13&g=325264&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1321092125400&enc=1&dsFamilyId=85&nsjs=true&nsck=true&nssvg=false&nswid=1352)

From this link (http://surname.sofeminine.co.uk/w/surnames/most-common-surnames-in-great-britain.html), you can calculate how many people in England have Welsh surnames, 5 in the top 10 are of Welsh origin.

BTW, I will agree with you on something, Welsh politics is extremely boring. I quite like the leader of the Welsh Lib Dems though, who's my brother-in-law's cousin :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38774000/jpg/_38774651_kirsty150.jpg

Those statistics don't seem to take into account the people in England with some other UK nation ancestry.
They're all under 1 million when the English population is something like 55 million.

When you look at how many people born in England who have other UK ancestry the figure gets a lot higher. I think it was something like 10 to 15 million for Irish.
I don't know about Welsh or Scottish.

Welsh immigration was mainly to the mining regions but was never nearly as numerous as Irish nor Scottish.
There's many Welsh rows of terrace houses I can think off - one in Nantwich - salt country and another in the Staffordshire Moorlands - Coal and Gritstone (an old building material there).

Welsh surnames were derived from England originally I always understood. But in Wales most of you only have like 7 surnames for the whole nation - these surnames are bound to be common over the UK. I think there's a similar situation in Scandinavia too.


Well, at least Wales has some semblance of a government which speaks up for it. England has the majority in Westminster, but a majority which counts for very little when most of the MPs are British Nationalists against the idea of England.

[Treffie]

Those statistics don't seem to take into account the people in England with some other UK nation ancestry.
They're all under 1 million when the English population is something like 55 million.

When you look at how many people born in England who have other UK ancestry the figure gets a lot higher. I think it was something like 10 to 15 million for Irish.
I don't know about Welsh or Scottish.

Welsh immigration was mainly to the mining regions but was never nearly as numerous as Irish nor Scottish.
There's many Welsh rows of terrace houses I can think off - one in Nantwich - salt country and another in the Staffordshire Moorlands - Coal and Gritstone (an old building material there).

Welsh surnames were derived from England originally I always understood. But in Wales most of you only have like 7 surnames for the whole nation - these surnames are bound to be common over the UK. I think there's a similar situation in Scandinavia too.


Well, at least Wales has some semblance of a government which speaks up for it. England has the majority in Westminster, but a majority which counts for very little when most of the MPs are British Nationalists against the idea of England.

You again?

According to some sources, 25% of the population of England has some Irish ancestry. If you could have been bothered to look up any noted sources, you might have come up with this (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/paediatric-epidemiology/pdfs/Signficance_Surnames_Paper.pdf). Or sometimes, Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_common_surnames_in_Europe#England) really can be your friend.

[Albion]

You again?

Yes, me again. Why? Are you fed up with me or something? :D


According to some sources, 25% of the population of England has some Irish ancestry. If you could have been bothered to look up any noted sources, you might have come up with this (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/paediatric-epidemiology/pdfs/Signficance_Surnames_Paper.pdf). Or sometimes, Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_common_surnames_in_Europe#England) really can be your friend.

Treffie, I told you that there's a large Irish input in England. :rolleyes: You were the one banging on about Wales, I told you that the Irish input is vastly more significant.
The 25% quoted is at the very high end of the scale. I don't think it is quite as high as that, Irish ancestry falls when you leave the cities and major towns.

I haven't looked up any sources because what I've said I presumed to be common knowledge. I wasn't trying to refute you, however you seem to think I was.

The Welsh surnames are common because like I said, there are so few Welsh surnames and a large amount of people in England with some Welsh ancestry.
It is precisely because Wales has so few surnames which has enabled these to become common in England - England has many surnames meaning it has been harder for most English surnames to become common (apart from generic ones like 'Smith' of course).

The Irish input is still more significant than the Welsh.

[Albion]

Contained in one of your links:


Turning to the other extreme, the most common surnames in the UK are Smith (1.22% of the
population), Jones (0.93%) and then Williams
(0.64%).

Even those surnames, the most common aren't all that common with percentages like those.

Like I said, just because Welsh surnames have a higher proportion of bearers in England than English surnames, it does not automatically mean there is a huge Welsh-descent within the English.
Welsh surnames are on the list because there is a huge variety of surnames in England, meaning it is harder for English surnames to become as predominant as Welsh ones.


These figures again highlight the much lower diversity of
surnames in Wales


Regions with a lower level of surname diversity include Northern Ireland, Scotland and, particularly, Wales.

I don't know why you gave me that link, it's almost like you wanted me to see the gaps in your post.

And I looked at the link you provided (yes, I did forget about it before) and still got a figure of even below the population of Wales for the Welsh surnames I spotted in the top 10 - I counted six though.

(Jones, Williams, Davies, Evans, Thomas, Roberts)

Together these surnames still amounted to less than 1 and 1/2 million out of a total English population of around 55 million.


From this link, you can calculate how many people in England have Welsh surnames, 5 in the top 10 are of Welsh origin.

[Treffie]

(Jones, Williams, Davies, Evans, Thomas, Roberts)

Together these surnames still amounted to less than 1 and 1/2 million out of a total English population of around 55 million.

That's funny, I've calculated approx 3 million if you continue down the list.

[Albion]

That's funny, I've calculated approx 3 million if you continue down the list.

Well 3 million then, it's still isn't huge but is a significant minority. There'll probably be more than that, but it would take forever to look through every surname in the country.

[Albion]

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7217/germaniceuropewithcelti.png

[The Exiled King]

Technically Denmark, Sweden, and Norway would also be Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations due to the large influx of R1b that went north through Germany into those countries.

[Albion]

Technically Denmark, Sweden, and Norway would also be Germanic-Celtic hybrid nations due to the large influx of R1b that went north through Germany into those countries.

R1b isn't just Celtic, there's also types of it associated more with Germanics for example. There's also a common European R1b type.

[Damião de Góis]

R1b is neither. It's most likely pre-celtic and maybe related to Beaker culture?

[Argyll]

R1b is neither. It's most likely pre-celtic and maybe related to Beaker culture?

There's evidence to show that the Celts, as we know them today, evolved from the Beaker people.

[Albion]

There's evidence to show that the Celts, as we know them today, evolved from the Beaker people.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40504

[Wulfhere]

The eastern part of Germany is a Germanic-Slavonic hybrid, and the northern part of Scandinavia a Germanic-Finnic hybrid.

[Albion]

The eastern part of Germany is a Germanic-Slavonic hybrid, and the northern part of Scandinavia a Germanic-Finnic hybrid.

You forgot Austria.

I didn't show these because I didn't feel like putting much effort into the map to be honest, so it's kept simple by showing the Celto-Germanic areas and the rest as just Germanic.