How can “mainland” Greeks possibly claim ancient Greek genetic similarity (bonus Lazaridis et al.)?

[kingmob]

To cut a long story short, let’s begin with the community’s K13 database:

Mycenean:



Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
11.09089266 Jew_Italy
12.58823657 Italian_Calabria
12.77117066 Jew_Sephardi
13.33522403 Greek_Ikaria
13.43077809 Greek_Andros
13.74573752 Greek_Rhodes
13.80313370 Maltese
13.83204251 Greek_Deep_Mani
14.13842636 Greek_Kalymnos
14.31002446 Greek_Nisyros
14.35136927 Italian_Sicily
14.45389567 Greek_Symi
14.71669460 Italian_Campania
14.90227835 Greek_Dodecanese
14.91801931 Greek_Karpathos
14.95787752 Jew_Ashkenazi
15.06763087 Italian_Apulia
15.25464192 Greek_Chios
15.27562765 Greek_Tsakonia
15.41751926 Greek_Kythera
15.46761779 Greek_Kos
15.67146132 Italian_Molise
16.07262580 Greek_Cyprus
16.17418932 Greek_Crete
16.30398418 Italian_Abruzzo


Jews, Greeks islands and South Italians seem pretty close, not a single “mainland” type in the top 25, with the exception of Tsakonia and Deep Mani (endangered species of the Peloponnese).


Same story with Helladic_EBA:



Distance to: Greece_Manika_Helladic_EBA
19.47616492 Jew_Italy
22.04608582 Jew_Sephardi
23.57222094 Jew_Ashkenazi
23.91034713 Greek_Andros
23.97507039 Italian_Calabria
24.59106748 Maltese
24.90149995 Greek_Deep_Mani
25.05905625 Italian_Sicily
25.08709628 Greek_Rhodes
25.09180942 Greek_Ikaria
25.10671822 Greek_Lefkada
25.40192512 Sardinian
25.47043188 Greek_Tsakonia
25.72141131 Italian_Campania
25.76209231 Greek_Symi
25.83348989 French_Corsica
25.83513886 Italian_Apulia
25.96375936 Italian_Molise
26.04136325 Greek_Kalymnos
26.11680493 Greek_Nisyros
26.14059295 Greek_Cyprus
26.32854345 Italian_Abruzzo
26.64211703 Greek_Kythera
26.73392975 Greek_Dodecanese
26.87042240 Greek_Karpathos


“B-b-b-ut mah Logkas Doric Greek and my northern Greek nativity!”



Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA
4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


Well, how about that, it looks like Albanians and North Macedonians, and even the Torbesh (!), can claim better nativity to Bronze Age Northern Greece than the “Greek mainland” types. If Doric Greeks end up plotting like that, then it's no brainer that both Albanians and North Macedonians have a better claim to ancient Macedonians (essentially a Doric group) than modern "mainland" Greek types do! At least, on an autosomals similarity level (not commenting on haplos, obviously).


“B-b-b-ut mah Lazaridis’ paper, K13 don’t count! Hurr … dur …”

Here’s where it gets interesting, folks.

Please, do keep notes, you can thank me later.

Here (https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pub/datasets/amh_repo/curated_releases/), you can find all Reich labs samples published (and some un-published), you can d/l the 1240+HO file and open it with a text editor.

You can then proceed to confirm that all modern Greek samples that were used to show similarity to Myceneans are either from Athens, Thessaloniki, or from Crete. The two biggest (and most-mixed) urban centres, plus the island that already shows similarity on the PCA.

Out of curiosity, I ran a simple neolithic model for a Thessaloniki sample, and what do you know? The sample comes close to the results of an island type (around 8% Steppe and 21.1% Iran_Ganj Dareh(!!!)). Obviously, a mixed individual that was picked based on their projected proximity to the Islands and thus to the Mycenean target for his paper?



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2127675239
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Greek_2.DG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Switzerland_Bichon.SG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 10 chisq: 10.349 tail: 0.410427911 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -10.349 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.130 0.484 -0.093
China_Tianyuan 0.229 0.553 -0.547
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.022 0.161 0.059
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.052 1.134 0.695
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.104 0.946 0.361
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.087 1.647 -1.501
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.419 -0.570 1.954
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.587 0.501 -0.292
Papuan.DG 0.256 0.398 -0.479
Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.183 2.015 0.665
Israel_Natufian_published -1.886 0.957 2.099
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.324 1.273 -0.840
ONG.SG 0.357 0.461 -0.372
A:
scale 528.910 607.687 1074.061
Turkey_N_published -0.533 0.335 0.396
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.866 1.468 -0.823
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.190 -1.215 -1.401
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.712 -0.507 1.097


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 4 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 10.349 taildiff: 0.410427911
B:
scale 775.884 322.447 399.503 305.841
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.263 0.329 -0.528 -0.162
China_Tianyuan -0.052 0.690 -0.117 -0.033
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.225 0.149 -0.086 0.015
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.483 0.608 -1.383 -0.224
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.924 0.741 -0.782 -0.114
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.851 2.136 -0.550 0.082
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.769 0.307 -0.312 3.110
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.407 0.736 -0.238 0.323
Papuan.DG -0.583 0.416 -0.263 -0.152
Switzerland_Bichon.SG 1.060 1.290 -2.056 -0.531
Israel_Natufian_published 2.284 -0.841 -2.251 -1.531
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.836 1.874 -0.452 0.686
ONG.SG -0.625 0.472 -0.389 -0.069
A:
scale 2.000 2.000 2.000 2.000
Turkey_N_published 2.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.000 2.000 0.000 0.000
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000 0.000 2.000 0.000
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000 0.000 0.000 2.000


best coefficients: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
totmean: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
boot mean: 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118
std. errors: 0.043 0.043 0.060 0.041

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1849 -801 -1427 379
-801 1877 -592 -484
-1427 -592 3630 -1611
379 -484 -1611 1717


summ: Greek_2.DG 4 0.410428 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118 1849 -801 -1427 379 1877 ...
-592 -484 3630 -1611 1717

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
0000 0 10 10.349 0.410428 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
0001 1 11 18.984 0.0613823 0.560 0.117 0.324 0.000
0010 1 11 22.783 0.0189629 0.670 0.117 0.000 0.214
0100 1 11 14.909 0.186693 0.618 0.000 0.247 0.135
1000 1 11 163.756 2.26733e-29 0.000 0.286 0.847 -0.133 infeasible
0011 2 12 66.272 1.58507e-09 0.731 0.269 0.000 0.000
0101 2 12 26.409 0.00939047 0.610 0.000 0.390 0.000
0110 2 12 30.876 0.0020579 0.733 0.000 0.000 0.267
1001 2 12 169.458 6.16227e-30 0.000 0.264 0.736 0.000
1010 2 12 303.898 0 0.000 0.521 0.000 0.479
1100 2 12 194.950 0 0.000 0.000 1.105 -0.105 infeasible
0111 3 13 115.911 1.28978e-18 1.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
1011 3 13 383.061 0 0.000 1.000 0.000 0.000
1101 3 13 198.053 0 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.000
1110 3 13 336.139 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 0000 0.410428 - -
best pat: 0100 0.186693 chi(nested): 4.560 p-value for nested model: 0.0327233
best pat: 0101 0.00939047 chi(nested): 11.500 p-value for nested model: 0.000696052
best pat: 0111 1.28978e-18 chi(nested): 89.502 p-value for nested model: 3.06317e-21

coeffs: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000340 -0.788055
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001021 2.202299
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.001322 -2.714466
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000531 -0.921993
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000459 Z: -1.119423

details: Turkey_N_published China_Tianyuan -0.000068 -0.145975
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya China_Tianyuan 0.002141 4.447657
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N China_Tianyuan -0.000293 -0.583381
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000108 -0.169980
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000060 Z: 0.138993

details: Turkey_N_published Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000290 0.898412
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000462 1.431364
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000215 -0.587247
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000050 0.120553
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000169 Z: 0.568312

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.000622 1.256217
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001886 3.719482
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.003462 -6.662542
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000731 -1.142808
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000298 Z: -0.651386

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.001190 2.629576
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.002298 4.694773
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001958 -3.833078
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000373 -0.577712
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: 0.000430 Z: 1.003181

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001097 -2.198591
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.006623 12.473419
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001377 -2.480566
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000267 0.385626
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000364 Z: -0.774729

details: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002281 -4.625870
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000952 1.819768
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000782 -1.458431
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.010170 13.827689
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000225 Z: -0.490340

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000524 -1.283623
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002284 5.437824
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000595 -1.319480
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.001055 1.999023
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000123 Z: -0.321650

details: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.000752 -1.997415
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Papuan.DG 0.001289 3.273648
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.000660 -1.593813
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -0.000498 -0.994063
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000536 Z: -1.502394

details: Turkey_N_published Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.001367 2.769527
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.004000 7.686398
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.005146 -9.689410
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.001738 -2.604670
dscore: Switzerland_Bichon.SG f4: -0.000163 Z: -0.353028

details: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.002944 5.690066
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Israel_Natufian_published -0.002607 -4.833593
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.005634 -9.983353
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.005005 -7.123963
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000264 Z: -0.558246

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001077 -3.001385
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.005811 14.747006
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001132 -2.854960
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.002243 4.294472
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000133 Z: -0.392831

details: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.000806 -2.232770
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya ONG.SG 0.001463 3.796444
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.000973 -2.383650
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.000227 -0.465866
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000587 Z: -1.727427

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.568
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.651
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.003
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.490
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.322
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -1.502
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.353
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.558
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.393
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.727
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 1.089
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.313
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.819
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.182
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.460
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.772
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.574
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.343
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.303
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.213
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.689
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.700
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.763
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.527
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.423
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.393
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.419
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.573
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.442
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.543
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.882
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.525
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.980
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.741
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.626
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.601
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.618
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.809
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.696
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.736
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.126
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.135
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.366
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.529
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.263
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.368
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG -0.611
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.487
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.211
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.168
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG -2.149
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -1.161
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian_published -1.262
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.287
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG ONG.SG -2.274
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.247
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.167
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.538
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.467
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.214
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -0.640
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.067
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.212
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -0.763
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -1.122
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.081
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.259
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.027
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.318
gendstat: Papuan.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.791
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.545
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.140
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.156
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.176
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.072
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG ONG.SG -0.886
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.266
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.601
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG -1.229

##end of qpAdm: 21.518 seconds cpu 1.487 Mbytes in use


Sneaky, imo, but who knows, maybe Lazaridis panicked after checking some "true native mainland" types and found abysmally low correlation?

Maybe I am wrong, and someone can cross-reference it and correct it (multiple set of eyes better than one), but somehow I don't think I am.


To be continued in the ethnography section ....


All comments and input welcome and appreciated!

[kingmob]

It seems to me that modern Greeks should be grateful for the (100 year old, now) influx of Anatolian Greeks that pushed them further South-East and brought them close again to their supposed ancestors.

Imagine the embarrassment with such papers, otherwise!

[Ayetooey]

Could you not model mainlanders as Logkas Doric Greek + medieval Anatolian + slav?

[Arzanene]

The mycenean samples do not have any indo European mixture so mainland greeks cluster closer to south Italians and other Balkan peoples because they have the same ratio of Indo European, east med, Neolithic anatolian mixture.

The bronze age invasions added a lot of indo euro mixture to the region probably, if the mycenean samples are all uniform.

[kingmob]

Could you not model mainlanders as Logkas Doric Greek + medieval Anatolian + slav?

In qpAdm?

There's no such samples in Reich 1240K (see OP) but I'll try it with my dad, I don't think it will work, though, will keep you posted.

[kingmob]

model mainlanders as Logkas Doric Greek + medieval Anatolian + slav?

I can model my father (greeknorthernthrace in left) as Logkas+Polish but with very high std. errors (above 10%). I can also do it with 59% RoopkundB + 41% Polish but the p-value is barely above 0.06 and the std.error at 7.2% so it's a bit of a meh shaky model.

For what is worth:



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2004977519
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
greeknorthernthrace
India_RoopkundB
Polish.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic
Turkey_Epipaleolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 21.521 tail: 0.0632483498 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -21.521 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.851
China_Tianyuan -0.369
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.491
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.925
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.455
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.665
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.250
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.676
Papuan.DG 0.676
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.946
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.897
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 2.354
Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.781
ONG.SG 0.482
A:
scale 1363.128
India_RoopkundB -0.806
Polish.DG 1.162


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 21.521 taildiff: 0.0632483498
B:
scale 1561.257 1007.133
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.025 1.479
China_Tianyuan -0.182 -0.794
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.766 0.286
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.576 1.103
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.450 0.310
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.422 1.461
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.046 -0.507
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.761 0.413
Papuan.DG -1.172 0.141
Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.744 -0.112
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.195 -0.551
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -1.794 2.210
Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.147 -1.056
ONG.SG 0.252 0.945
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
India_RoopkundB 1.414 0.000
Polish.DG 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.591 0.409
totmean: 0.591 0.409
boot mean: 0.589 0.411
std. errors: 0.074 0.074

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5420 -5420
-5420 5420


summ: greeknorthernthrace 2 0.063248 0.589 0.411 5420 -5420 5420

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 21.521 0.0632483 0.591 0.409
01 1 14 58.522 2.12765e-07 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 73.282 4.88232e-10 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.0632483 - -
best pat: 01 2.12765e-07 chi(nested): 37.001 p-value for nested model: 1.18076e-09

coeffs: 0.591 0.409

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000016 -0.036984
details: Polish.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001468 2.482049
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000592 Z: 1.307302

details: India_RoopkundB China_Tianyuan -0.000117 -0.229357
details: Polish.DG China_Tianyuan -0.000788 -1.250094
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000391 Z: -0.764359

details: India_RoopkundB Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000491 -1.532474
details: Polish.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000284 0.754988
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: -0.000174 Z: -0.562277

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000369 -0.709027
details: Polish.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001095 1.634705
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: 0.000230 Z: 0.430126

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.000288 -0.723772
details: Polish.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.000307 0.633023
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000044 Z: -0.112309

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000911 -1.663113
details: Polish.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001451 2.174878
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000056 Z: 0.102400

details: India_RoopkundB Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000670 -1.286273
details: Polish.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000503 -0.762521
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000602 Z: -1.132783

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000488 -1.148716
details: Polish.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000410 0.776908
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000120 Z: -0.283144

details: India_RoopkundB Papuan.DG -0.000751 -1.877100
details: Polish.DG Papuan.DG 0.000140 0.273545
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000386 Z: -0.938335

details: India_RoopkundB Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001117 3.073585
details: Polish.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000111 -0.240408
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000614 Z: 1.662260

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000766 1.953718
details: Polish.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000547 -1.176844
dscore: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya f4: 0.000228 Z: 0.587361

details: India_RoopkundB Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.001149 -2.944649
details: Polish.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.002194 4.416657
dscore: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic f4: 0.000219 Z: 0.552512

details: India_RoopkundB Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.000094 0.180657
details: Polish.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.001049 -1.539305
dscore: Turkey_Epipaleolithic f4: -0.000374 Z: -0.691370

details: India_RoopkundB ONG.SG 0.000162 0.426978
details: Polish.DG ONG.SG 0.000938 2.084361
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000479 Z: 1.290878

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.307
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.764
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.562
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.430
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.112
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.102
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.133
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.283
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.938
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.662
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.587
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.553
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.691
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 1.291
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -1.768
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.464
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.622
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.300
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.914
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.026
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.488
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -2.106
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.049
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.721
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.786
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.645
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.243
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.376
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1.054
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.680
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.753
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.338
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.558
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.011
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.009
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.155
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.227
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.029
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 1.881
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.671
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.259
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.373
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.716
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.107
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.435
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.713
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.833
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.819
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.328
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 1.392
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.538
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.282
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.297
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.649
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -1.166
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.734
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.004
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.023
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.981
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.195
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.072
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.175
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Papuan.DG -0.769
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.793
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.715
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.729
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.624
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG 1.269
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.038
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.321
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.818
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.095
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.303
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.333
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.677
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG 0.790
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.873
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 0.402
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.539
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.623
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.604
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.366
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.052
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -0.662
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.784
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.753
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.795
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.452
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 1.571
gendstat: Papuan.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.446
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.317
gendstat: Papuan.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.513
gendstat: Papuan.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.023
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG 2.360
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.998
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -1.022
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.897
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.348
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.023
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.177
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG 0.590
gendstat: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.254
gendstat: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic ONG.SG 0.666
gendstat: Turkey_Epipaleolithic ONG.SG 1.642

##end of qpAdm: 2.227 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

[Flashball]

The mycenean samples do not have any indo European mixture so mainland greeks cluster closer to south Italians and other Balkan peoples because they have the same ratio of Indo European, east med, Neolithic anatolian mixture.

The bronze age invasions added a lot of indo euro mixture to the region probably, if the mycenean samples are all uniform.

Why they don't clust with sardinians (central mostly)?

And look at the distance...

"Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
11.09089266 Jew_Italy
12.58823657 Italian_Calabria
12.77117066 Jew_Sephardi
13.33522403 Greek_Ikaria
13.43077809 Greek_Andros
13.74573752 Greek_Rhodes
13.80313370 Maltese
13.83204251 Greek_Deep_Mani
14.13842636 Greek_Kalymnos
14.31002446 Greek_Nisyros
14.35136927 Italian_Sicily
14.45389567 Greek_Symi
14.71669460 Italian_Campania
14.90227835 Greek_Dodecanese
14.91801931 Greek_Karpathos
14.95787752 Jew_Ashkenazi
15.06763087 Italian_Apulia
15.25464192 Greek_Chios
15.27562765 Greek_Tsakonia
15.41751926 Greek_Kythera
15.46761779 Greek_Kos
15.67146132 Italian_Molise
16.07262580 Greek_Cyprus
16.17418932 Greek_Crete
16.30398418 Italian_Abruzzo"

11.00 is not very close, it's not a HUGE distance, but this is not "very close"...

Also you should use Global 25, IMO, but Mycenaean >>>

Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
Distance: 0.0249% / 0.02492546
64.5 TUR_Barcin_N
16.1 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.6 Levant_PPNB
0.9 Han
0.5 Yoruba
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
Distance: 0.0382% / 0.03823465
60.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.1 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.7 Dinka
1.2 Gambian
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.7 WHG
0.5 ETH_4500BP
0.3 Han
0.1 MAR_Taforalt

Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
Distance: 0.0313% / 0.03132711
69.4 TUR_Barcin_N
13.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
6.2 Levant_PPNB
5.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.9 WHG
2.1 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.8 Jarawa
0.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
Distance: 0.0316% / 0.03163134
69.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
8.5 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.1 Nganassan

[Muffinman]

The mycenean samples do not have any indo European mixture so mainland greeks cluster closer to south Italians and other Balkan peoples because they have the same ratio of Indo European, east med, Neolithic anatolian mixture.

The bronze age invasions added a lot of indo euro mixture to the region probably, if the mycenean samples are all uniform.

I'm pretty sure OP is just a sockpuppet troll so I'd just ignore him. Yes, Mycenaeans did not have much steppe, but they did not have any natufian either. They were largely a CHG + EEF hybrid so naturally they plot closest to Southern Italians and Greek islanders but with an insanely large distance.

[kingmob]

I'm pretty sure OP is just a sockpuppet troll so I'd just ignore him. Yes, Mycenaeans did not have much steppe, but they did not have any natufian either. They were largely a CHG + EEF hybrid so naturally they plot closest to Southern Italians and Greek islanders but with an insanely large distance.

Ι am neither a sockpuppet nor a troll. Everything I posted is verifiable by anyone, since

a) the K13 project is not mine nor do I have any control over it,
b) you only need a notepad/text editor to check the validity of my claim about the Laziridis' samples by going through the 1240+HO.ind file from the Reich Labs website, which again is not mine (obviously, lol) and again I have no control over it.

Yet, you make accusations with no arguments as a back up, other than ad-homs.

As such, your arguments are null and void, just another salty 'mainland' type seething.

Better luck, next time.

[Flashball]

I'm pretty sure OP is just a sockpuppet troll so I'd just ignore him. Yes, Mycenaeans did not have much steppe, but they did not have any natufian either. They were largely a CHG + EEF hybrid so naturally they plot closest to Southern Italians and Greek islanders but with an insanely large distance.



GRC_Mycenaean:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017 235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491

[kingmob]

Anyone who's interested in Minoan/Mycenean runs please check my qpAdm thread (not that there's any brand new revelation or anything like that):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?359699-Mycenean-and-Minoan-(Lazaridis-Reich-1240k)-qpAdm-run

[lockdownboredom]

Anyone who's interested in Minoan/Mycenean runs please check my qpAdm thread (not that there's any brand new revelation or anything like that):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?359699-Mycenean-and-Minoan-(Lazaridis-Reich-1240k)-qpAdm-run

how did you learn to use qpAdm, dosas?

[Flashball]

PCA (Actual southern italians have more Tepecik anatolian via the East-Med admixture, a kind of more "irano-levantine" shifted of Neolithic Anatolian).

https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/09/4/1646299638-pcamycenaen.jpg

[kingmob]

Regarding qpAdm, the blogger Vasistha has a very good step-by-step tutorial on his website, and he's kind enough to answer questions about trouble-shooting certain issues that pop up.

https://a-genetics.blogspot.com/

[kingmob]

PCA (Actual southern italians have more Tepecik anatolian via the East-Med admixture, a kind of more "irano-levantine" shifted of Neolithic Anatolian).



Tepecik-Ciflik and Boncuklu predate Barcin chronologically.

[Dorian]

What all these distances show is that they're close to no modern populations.

The thing is both Tsakonians and Maniots ,two peoples known for being isolated show that other than Mycenaean and East med or Slav they require an element that resembles Paleobalkanics/Italics. If they've been really isolated , this could mean that we are missing relevant samples that brought it to Greece (or we have them already and it's something similar to Logkas02) which is either post-Mycenaean admix on top of Mycenaean or a different profile that such pops need all together(along with possible later admixtures) and Mycenaean being bad proxy, in that case what's missing for them would also be relevant for the rest of Greeks too be they Mainlanders or some Islanders.

[vbnetkhio]

I can model my father (greeknorthernthrace in left) as Logkas+Polish but with very high std. errors (above 10%). I can also do it with 59% RoopkundB + 41% Polish but the p-value is barely above 0.06 and the std.error at 7.2% so it's a bit of a meh shaky model.

For what is worth:



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2004977519
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
greeknorthernthrace
India_RoopkundB
Polish.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic
Turkey_Epipaleolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 21.521 tail: 0.0632483498 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -21.521 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.851
China_Tianyuan -0.369
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.491
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.925
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.455
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.665
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.250
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.676
Papuan.DG 0.676
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.946
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.897
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 2.354
Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.781
ONG.SG 0.482
A:
scale 1363.128
India_RoopkundB -0.806
Polish.DG 1.162


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 21.521 taildiff: 0.0632483498
B:
scale 1561.257 1007.133
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.025 1.479
China_Tianyuan -0.182 -0.794
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.766 0.286
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.576 1.103
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.450 0.310
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.422 1.461
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.046 -0.507
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.761 0.413
Papuan.DG -1.172 0.141
Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.744 -0.112
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.195 -0.551
Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -1.794 2.210
Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.147 -1.056
ONG.SG 0.252 0.945
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
India_RoopkundB 1.414 0.000
Polish.DG 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.591 0.409
totmean: 0.591 0.409
boot mean: 0.589 0.411
std. errors: 0.074 0.074

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5420 -5420
-5420 5420


summ: greeknorthernthrace 2 0.063248 0.589 0.411 5420 -5420 5420

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 21.521 0.0632483 0.591 0.409
01 1 14 58.522 2.12765e-07 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 73.282 4.88232e-10 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.0632483 - -
best pat: 01 2.12765e-07 chi(nested): 37.001 p-value for nested model: 1.18076e-09

coeffs: 0.591 0.409

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000016 -0.036984
details: Polish.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001468 2.482049
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000592 Z: 1.307302

details: India_RoopkundB China_Tianyuan -0.000117 -0.229357
details: Polish.DG China_Tianyuan -0.000788 -1.250094
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000391 Z: -0.764359

details: India_RoopkundB Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000491 -1.532474
details: Polish.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000284 0.754988
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: -0.000174 Z: -0.562277

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000369 -0.709027
details: Polish.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001095 1.634705
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: 0.000230 Z: 0.430126

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.000288 -0.723772
details: Polish.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.000307 0.633023
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000044 Z: -0.112309

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000911 -1.663113
details: Polish.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001451 2.174878
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000056 Z: 0.102400

details: India_RoopkundB Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000670 -1.286273
details: Polish.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000503 -0.762521
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000602 Z: -1.132783

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000488 -1.148716
details: Polish.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000410 0.776908
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000120 Z: -0.283144

details: India_RoopkundB Papuan.DG -0.000751 -1.877100
details: Polish.DG Papuan.DG 0.000140 0.273545
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000386 Z: -0.938335

details: India_RoopkundB Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001117 3.073585
details: Polish.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000111 -0.240408
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000614 Z: 1.662260

details: India_RoopkundB Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000766 1.953718
details: Polish.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000547 -1.176844
dscore: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya f4: 0.000228 Z: 0.587361

details: India_RoopkundB Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.001149 -2.944649
details: Polish.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.002194 4.416657
dscore: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic f4: 0.000219 Z: 0.552512

details: India_RoopkundB Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.000094 0.180657
details: Polish.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.001049 -1.539305
dscore: Turkey_Epipaleolithic f4: -0.000374 Z: -0.691370

details: India_RoopkundB ONG.SG 0.000162 0.426978
details: Polish.DG ONG.SG 0.000938 2.084361
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000479 Z: 1.290878

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.307
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.764
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.562
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.430
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.112
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.102
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.133
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.283
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.938
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.662
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.587
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.553
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.691
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 1.291
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -1.768
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.464
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.622
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.300
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.914
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.026
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.488
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -2.106
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.049
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.721
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.786
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.645
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.243
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.376
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG 1.054
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.680
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.753
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.338
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.558
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.011
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.009
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.155
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.227
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.029
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 1.881
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.671
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.259
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.373
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.716
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.107
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.435
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.713
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.833
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.819
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.328
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 1.392
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.538
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.282
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.297
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.649
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -1.166
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.734
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.004
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.023
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.981
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.195
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.072
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.175
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Papuan.DG -0.769
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.793
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.715
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.729
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.624
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG 1.269
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.038
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.321
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.818
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.095
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.303
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.333
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.677
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG 0.790
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.873
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 0.402
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.539
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.623
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.604
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.366
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.052
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -0.662
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.784
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.753
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 0.795
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Turkey_Epipaleolithic -0.452
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 1.571
gendstat: Papuan.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 2.446
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.317
gendstat: Papuan.DG Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic 1.513
gendstat: Papuan.DG Turkey_Epipaleolithic 0.023
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG 2.360
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.998
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -1.022
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.897
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.348
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic -0.023
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.177
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG 0.590
gendstat: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic Turkey_Epipaleolithic -1.254
gendstat: Serbia_IronGates_Mesolithic ONG.SG 0.666
gendstat: Turkey_Epipaleolithic ONG.SG 1.642

##end of qpAdm: 2.227 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use


could you try Greece_BA_Mycenaean + Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA + Hungary_Avar_5_daughter.or.mother.AV1 ?

[CommonSense]

There are no samples from Classic Era Greeks. Unless the entirety of mainland Greece got replace by Thracians at some point in antiquity, they certainly were genetically different from Myceneans.

[kingmob]

There are no samples from Classic Era Greeks. Unless the entirety of mainland Greece got replace by Thracians at some point in antiquity, they certainly were genetically different from Myceneans.


Empuries2 are Classical Greeks, they are not different to Myceneans.

[kingmob]

could you try Greece_BA_Mycenaean + Turkey_Alalakh_MLBA + Hungary_Avar_5_daughter.or.mother.AV1 ?


Doesn't work, Myc+Avar passes p-value but with very high std. error (10%ish).

[catgeorge]

Easy, because we are Greece.

Most likely Mycenean

https://fmdataba.com/images/p2/552856.png

[kingmob]

hur ... dur ... derpa derp ...

:lol::lol::lol:

R1b subclade, please. :lol:

No?

Why?

You scared?

:lol::lol::lol:

[catgeorge]

:lol::lol::lol:

R1b subclade, please. :lol:

No?

Why?

You scared?

:lol::lol::lol:

Only Pontians like Lazaridis can be so stupid producing speculative samples as a fact.,,and all the goons jump all over it

[kingmob]

Only Pontians like Lazaridis can be so stupid producing speculative samples as a fact.,,and all the goons jump all over it

Yes, you should write to him, because it can open up cans of worms like the one I just did. He will appreciate your feedback, I am sure.

:lol::lol::lol:


We still have so much to talk about, Karakachan, you have no idea ... I am just getting warmed up.

[catgeorge]

Yes, you should write to him, because it can open up cans of worms like the one I just did. He will appreciate your feedback, I am sure.

:lol::lol::lol:


We still have so much to talk about, Karakachan, you have no idea ... I am just getting warmed up.

Doesn't matter - all you need to know is special forces are only made of mainland Greeks that have military tradition like Myceneans - not gypsydom like Pontians.

[catgeorge]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EN9pGpCWkAQuDN3.jpg

[kingmob]

Herpa derpa ... special forces ... hur dur ... gypsis


Karakachan being derogatory towards gypsies, haha, plz stop, you're killing me. :lol::lol::lol:


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-evGFjnGzLpE/UPL--aD_BKI/AAAAAAACCHg/aaDp1ehjxeo/s1600/Sarakatsanaioi-1-NAI.jpg

[catgeorge]

Karakachan being derogatory towards gypsies, haha, plz stop, you're killing me. :lol::lol::lol:


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-evGFjnGzLpE/UPL--aD_BKI/AAAAAAACCHg/aaDp1ehjxeo/s1600/Sarakatsanaioi-1-NAI.jpg

Yes, and Greek mountains were never conquered

[kingmob]

Ahem, however how much fun it is to see you, 'mainland' Karakachan clown, seethe, you can exit the thread and salvage what self-respect you may have left, after been btfo like that by a mere usage of K13 and a text editor.

Or, you can post your R1b clade and we can chat about that, I am really interested in it.

Come on, be a chap:

morley screenshot, plz.

[catgeorge]

You keep dreaming your Arab-Armenoid has anything to do with Greece

[kingmob]

Said the diaspora kebab shop grease ball who can't string two sentences in modern Greek, let alone Homeric / Hellenistic Ionic the Pontics speak. :lol::lol:

[Renekton]

:rotfl2:rotfl2:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

dosas lol now I remember him

:bowlol::bowlol::bowlol::clapping:clapping:clappin g:lol00002::lol00001:

[vbnetkhio]

Doesn't work, Myc+Avar passes p-value but with very high std. error (10%ish).

most genetic methods show that modern Greeks have some admixture which pulls them away from Mycenaeans and towards the Levant and Caucasus. A well made software would somehow recognize that, even if Alalakh is not the perfect choice and it's actually some slightly different source.

Here it's obviously fails because of some trivial reason, like SNP count, or differences between SG/DG/1240k samples. On the other hand, in another thread you modelled Norwegians with a bunch of Iran_N if I remember correctly. That's why I stick to G25, until the "professional" stuff becomes more stable and functional.

[kingmob]

On the other hand, in another thread you modelled Norwegians with a bunch of Iran_N if I remember correctly.


Yes, it's intriguing isn't it? Do you know why that is?

I have some ideas but not decided yet.

As for G25, you should check this (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v4.full)out before making a final verdict.

[kingmob]

most genetic methods show that modern Greeks have some admixture which pulls them away from Mycenaeans and towards the Levant and Caucasus. A well made software would somehow recognize that, even if Alalakh is not the perfect choice and it's actually some slightly different source.



The problem is that modern Greeks as they exist in the 1240K Reich database, ie Athens + Thessaloniki, the two main urban centers where more than half of the country's total population resides, are mixed in such a manner (Balkan + South Caucasus/Anatolia+Islands) that coincidentally has them clustering in relative close proximity to the Myceneans.

It's the total of the mix that produces such results, just like in the case of the islands, if Lazaridis made the distinction that you do on your database, he'd reach the same conclusion that we can with a simple K13 run. Are you following me?

So if you want to look for approximation to Myceneans, and the rumored Hellenistic Marathon sample, you need such mixes that mirror the composition of the islands (Balkan+Anatolia/Caucasus).

Allalakh won't necessarily help you as a source population, because we don't even know if that population even made it to Hellenistic times, or it was rolled over by Macedono-Persian Seleucids, thus its position could also be relatively coincidental on your PCA.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, it's intriguing isn't it? Do you know why that is?

I have some ideas but not decided yet.

As for G25, you should check this (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v4.full)out before making a final verdict.

in some studies all Europeans are succesfully modelled with qpadm as EEF+Steppe+WHG. qpadm is just unstable and inconsistent.

Im checking that study and I see some poorly made PCAs, with too few populations, too much SNPs used etc.
There are steps to make a proper PCA, similarly like choosing the right pops in qpadm. But once you apply them, the results are much mroe consistent than those of qpadm.
What I mean is any properly made PCA will show that modern Greeks have an Alalakh-type shift.

[vbnetkhio]

The problem is that modern Greeks as they exist in the 1240K Reich database, ie Athens + Thessaloniki, the two main urban centers where more than half of the country's total population resides, are mixed in such a manner (Balkan + South Caucasus/Anatolia+Islands) that coincidentally has them clustering in relative close proximity to the Myceneans.

It's the total of the mix that produces such results, just like in the case of the islands, if Lazaridis made the distinction that you do on your database, he'd reach the same conclusion that we can with a simple K13 run. Are you following me?

So if you want to look for approximation to Myceneans, and the rumored Hellenistic Marathon sample, you need such mixes that mirror the composition of the islands (Balkan+Anatolia/Caucasus).

Allalakh won't necessarily help you as a source population, because we don't even know if that population even made it to Hellenistic times, or it was rolled over by Macedono-Persian Seleucids, thus its position could also be relatively coincidental on your PCA.

not really. you claim that mainland Greeks have nothing to do with Mycenaeans, but your own model shows them as straightforward Slavic+Mycenaean rather than Slavic+Mycenaean+Middle Eastern what I claim.

[kingmob]

in some studies all Europeans are succesfully modelled with qpadm as EEF+Steppe+WHG. qpadm is just unstable and inconsistent.


Yes, but the PCAs are much worse, I can model myself successfully as 70% Anatolian + 30% Norwegian on g25, one can abuse it to no end when they learn how to game the references. If I was an orphan, what would this information tell me? That I have 3 Turkish grandparents and 1 Norwegian?

But I cannot make a similar model pass qpAdm.

So take everything with a grain of salt, for me ethnography and archaeology always come first, maybe I am wrong, who knows.

[kingmob]

but your own model shows them as straightforward Slavic+Mycenaean rather than Slavic+Mycenaean+Middle Eastern what I claim.

What model.

I told you my dad's Myc + Slav had over 10% std. error and a p-value barely above 5%. That model would never make it to being published.

[vbnetkhio]

What model.

I told you my dad's Myc + Slav had over 10% std. error and a p-value barely above 5%. That model would never make it to being published.

but it passes, while the the one with Alalakh is rejected, so it's closer to the truth if we take qpadm as a reliable.

[kingmob]

but it passes, while the the one with Alalakh is rejected, so it's closer to the truth if we take qpadm as a reliable.


No it doesn't.

For a model to be passable, correction: publishable, it would need a p-value closer to 50% not 5%, which is the absolutely lowest you can possibly go, and a standard error of below 5%, or around there, not 10%.

It would be the equivalent of me showing you a K13 with a 30+ distance and saying that it passes.

[Faklon]

Are you dosas bratani?

Dosas was a chad from what I recall.

Mycenaeans is a Steppe influenced Minoan civilization. Don't take it the wrong, they may very well be close to classical Greeks (who themselves are not an idolized single entity, as there is barely a notion of ethnic before the French civilization), but they still would be the most Neolithic-shifted Greek-speaking population. Greek language appears first around Olympus.

I mean, obviously Northern/Mainland Greeks would have "non-classical Greek" Balkanic input and there is no way in hell that Dorics (if there actually existed such an entity) would be like gopniks, but your calculations are still skewed, some of these Mycenaeans turn like pure Minoans/farmers.

Too much fuss for nothing bro, and it's not like that they are that further away from modern natives neither.

[vbnetkhio]

The problem is that modern Greeks as they exist in the 1240K Reich database, ie Athens + Thessaloniki, the two main urban centers where more than half of the country's total population resides, are mixed in such a manner (Balkan + South Caucasus/Anatolia+Islands) that coincidentally has them clustering in relative close proximity to the Myceneans.

It's the total of the mix that produces such results, just like in the case of the islands, if Lazaridis made the distinction that you do on your database, he'd reach the same conclusion that we can with a simple K13 run. Are you following me?

So if you want to look for approximation to Myceneans, and the rumored Hellenistic Marathon sample, you need such mixes that mirror the composition of the islands (Balkan+Anatolia/Caucasus).

Allalakh won't necessarily help you as a source population, because we don't even know if that population even made it to Hellenistic times, or it was rolled over by Macedono-Persian Seleucids, thus its position could also be relatively coincidental on your PCA.

btw, those academic samples don't represent the mixed urban population. The Athens samples just look like Sterea Ellada, and Thessaloniki look like normal Macedonian Greeks. There are no Pontics, Islanders, etc.

Alalakh isn't anything unique, it's just a transitional population between the Caucasus and Levant, so it should cover a large spectrum of Middle eastern admixture. It doesn't matter if that exact population went extinct later.
My guess is that the eastern input in Greeks was more Caucasus shifted than Alalakh, but qpadm shouldn't mind such small differences, since it finds Iran_N in Norwegians, lol

[kingmob]

Are you dosas bratani?

Dosas was a chad from what I recall.

Mycenaeans is a Steppe influenced Minoan civilization. Don't take it the wrong, they may very well be close to classical Greeks (who themselves are not an idolized single entity, as there is barely a notion of ethnic before the French civilization), but they still would be the most Neolithic-shifted Greek-speaking population. Greek language appears first around Olympus.

I mean, obviously Northern/Mainland Greeks would have "non-classical Greek" Balkanic input and there is no way in hell that Dorics (if there actually existed such an entity) would be like gopniks, but your calculations are still skewed, some of these Mycenaeans turn like pure Minoans/farmers.

Too much fuss for nothing bro, and it's not like that they are that further away from modern natives neither.

It doesn't matter who I am, only what I write.

The Greek language starting in Olympus is not proved as of yet, Lazaridis wrote about two possible pathways by which Greek arrived (an either/or scenario, might want to read up on it). I don't have any counter-evidence to refute his hypothesis.

And I don't need qpAdm nor PCAs to know what history and ethnography had already told me decades ago.

Vlachs are Balkanesque Imperial Romans (could have absorbed some Greeks, no argument there), Arvanites are Albanians and Karakachans and Macedonians are Bulgarians in their original appearance in the "mainland". Yes, they are a tiny bit more southern compared to their brethren but so what, their ethnography and language is identical to the source.

You wanted to shit on Anatolians and Pontics with your racist tirade, I just called you out on your bullshit in this thread, using the simple tools available to everyone.

Every action has a reaction, Vlach-bro, it's just how it is.

[kingmob]

btw, those academic samples don't represent the mixed urban population. The Athens samples just look like Sterea Ellada, and Thessaloniki look like normal Macedonian Greeks.


What do you mean, did you run them and can say for sure? Can you post their fstats?

One of the two Thessaloniki samples, Greek-2.DG I posted their fstats and if you think that native Macedonian Greeks score 8% Steppe and 21% Ganj-Dareh, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I just think you ran out of arguments and are now making up stuff to save face.

[Faklon]

It doesn't matter who I am, only what I write.

The Greek language starting in Olympus is not proved as of yet, Lazaridis wrote about two possible pathways by which Greek arrived (an either/or scenario, might want to read up on it). I don't have any counter-evidence to refute his hypothesis.

And I don't need qpAdm nor PCAs to know what history and ethnography had already told me decades ago.

Vlachs are Balkanesque Imperial Romans (could have absorbed some Greeks, no argument there), Arvanites are Albanians and Karakachans and Macedonians are Bulgarians in their original appearance in the "mainland". Yes, they are a tiny bit more southern compared to their brethren but so what, their ethnography and language is identical to the source.

You wanted to shit on Anatolians and Pontics with your racist tirade, I just called you out on your bullshit in this thread, using the simple tools available to everyone.

Every action has a reaction, Vlach-bro, it's just how it is.


Lazaridis is not an archaelogist, these people are.

The Northern Frontier of the Mycenaean World (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=11)

There is archaelogical evidence on the origins of Mycenaeans that predates anthrotard calculators.

You're still trying.

[kingmob]

Lazaridis is not an archaelogist, these people are.

The Northern Frontier of the Mycenaean World (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=11)

There is archaelogical evidence on the origins of Mycenaeans that predates anthrotard calculators.

You're still trying.


Sure, I am not really bothered whether it's mount Olympus or the river Kura-Araxes.

That wasn't the point of this thread.

[vbnetkhio]

What do you mean, did you run them and can say for sure? Can you post their fstats?

One of the two Thessaloniki samples, Greek-2.DG I posted their fstats and if you think that native Macedonian Greeks score 8% Steppe and 21% Ganj-Dareh, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I just think you ran out of arguments and are now pulling stuff to save face.

lol no, I'm pretty sure bout this.
how could I prove antyhing with F-stats? I don't have non-academic Greek raw data to compare these samples to.

here are the Thessaloniki samples compared to Thracian Greeks from another study, and Athens Greeks compared to Central Greeks from another study.
https://i.imgur.com/cKxZUci.png
https://i.imgur.com/Wr4fb8P.png


Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP10,13.51,19.28,19.6 7,13.99,27.03,3.43,0.07,0.98,0.00,1.00,0.36,0.69,0 .00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP11,23.72,17.86,18.1 3,9.96,26.52,1.26,1.44,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.65,0. 00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP12,12.20,21.66,19.6 6,17.00,22.03,4.31,0.00,0.00,0.63,1.71,0.68,0.12,0 .00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP13,21.90,12.64,22.6 6,16.86,21.24,2.80,0.00,0.12,0.00,0.67,0.57,0.30,0 .22
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP14,24.31,13.00,20.4 2,7.50,30.81,1.76,0.15,0.00,0.00,1.17,0.24,0.54,0. 10
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP15,22.58,15.87,20.7 1,15.34,23.09,0.00,0.00,0.77,0.00,0.88,0.00,0.00,0 .75
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP16,15.71,17.15,21.2 4,12.67,26.70,4.48,0.00,0.00,0.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,1 .07
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP17,19.71,21.26,17.9 7,10.93,25.79,2.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.78,0.00,0.41,0 .75
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP18,18.38,14.96,23.4 5,9.41,25.97,4.68,2.48,0.00,0.00,0.66,0.00,0.00,0. 00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP3,16.13,20.48,23.08 ,9.83,25.43,2.81,0.00,0.00,0.87,0.76,0.61,0.00,0.0 0
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP4,18.22,15.16,21.37 ,11.72,27.48,4.48,0.00,0.98,0.43,0.16,0.00,0.00,0. 00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP5,19.45,16.33,22.41 ,10.69,26.32,1.41,1.86,1.20,0.00,0.34,0.00,0.00,0. 00
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP8,21.47,19.54,19.50 ,14.85,21.52,1.96,0.00,0.00,0.06,0.45,0.23,0.00,0. 42
Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP9,18.10,19.49,24.06 ,12.35,22.34,2.17,0.00,1.48,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00
East_Rumelia:650,20.56,16.52,21.60,13.04,22.89,4.2 0,0.00,0.00,0.57,0.22,0.39,0.00,0.01
East_Rumelia:653,17.84,14.43,18.86,16.20,27.79,3.4 8,0.04,0.00,0.00,1.37,0.00,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:651,15.29,19.60,20.91,16.84,22.89,3.2 8,0.03,0.00,0.79,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:642,24.43,16.27,17.56,13.25,23.08,3.0 8,1.92,0.00,0.01,0.38,0.00,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:646,19.34,13.74,17.62,17.82,25.37,2.7 9,1.92,0.04,0.70,0.24,0.41,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:652,15.81,11.41,18.26,17.16,32.14,2.5 9,0.00,0.16,0.95,0.52,0.00,0.00,1.00
East_Rumelia:647,21.08,22.70,20.07,15.47,16.99,2.3 1,0.54,0.02,0.75,0.00,0.00,0.05,0.00
East_Rumelia:643,15.84,16.99,17.21,19.83,26.62,2.0 5,0.23,0.00,0.08,0.00,1.16,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:644,14.78,25.52,16.33,11.82,27.11,1.9 2,0.00,0.00,2.11,0.00,0.00,0.01,0.39
East_Rumelia:645,20.59,22.70,18.67,11.77,23.06,1.9 0,0.00,0.00,0.12,0.00,1.19,0.00,0.00
East_Rumelia:649,21.36,17.76,18.77,10.40,27.10,1.5 5,1.87,0.00,0.11,0.48,0.00,0.00,0.60
East_Rumelia:648,20.35,21.58,21.26,15.82,17.05,0.8 3,0.13,1.93,0.00,0.69,0.00,0.00,0.36
Greek_Athens:TLA010,18.95,8.98,21.98,12.27,34.16,2 .92,0.00,0.24,0.00,0.00,0.50,0.00,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA011,13.77,11.50,21.88,17.99,25.12, 7.00,0.00,0.58,1.08,0.00,0.87,0.00,0.20
Greek_Athens:TLA012,20.64,7.03,19.72,15.68,30.88,5 .93,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.13
Greek_Athens:TLA015,18.61,14.93,24.05,9.57,26.54,2 .92,0.00,1.08,0.91,0.00,0.25,0.26,0.87
Greek_Athens:TLA017,23.56,11.00,21.22,16.16,23.95, 1.54,0.22,1.42,0.82,0.00,0.11,0.00,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA018,22.27,9.43,21.69,11.57,32.11,1 .13,0.00,1.14,0.00,0.36,0.00,0.28,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA019,17.69,16.97,18.65,12.87,25.67, 6.78,0.88,0.00,0.00,0.32,0.18,0.00,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA020,14.32,19.83,20.77,10.70,27.92, 5.10,0.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.34,0.66
Greek_Athens:TLA021,19.10,10.20,21.30,19.18,23.30, 3.38,0.00,2.14,0.00,0.00,0.64,0.00,0.77
Greek_Athens:TLA023,14.60,18.97,19.80,13.32,30.71, 0.34,0.00,0.20,1.48,0.10,0.48,0.00,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA024,18.68,10.40,20.63,12.52,30.50, 4.07,1.59,1.14,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.48
Greek_Athens:TLA025,16.76,14.29,22.47,13.17,26.99, 4.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.36,0.00,0.00,0.14
Greek_Athens:TLA027,16.77,15.06,23.90,16.92,21.46, 4.49,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.90,0.49,0.00
Greek_Athens:TLA028,17.33,14.56,19.81,13.69,28.82, 3.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.00,0.97
Greek_Athens:TLA029,16.94,11.44,22.26,15.43,25.63, 4.75,2.38,0.00,0.56,0.51,0.10,0.00,0.00
Greek_Athens_o:TLA022,8.17,10.70,22.30,21.31,27.98 ,6.42,2.22,0.00,0.07,0.00,0.56,0.28,0.00
Greek_Athens_o:TLA026,13.66,6.95,21.70,19.09,31.06 ,5.05,1.40,0.29,0.00,0.39,0.19,0.00,0.22
GreeceCentr:1,18.82,13.49,18.50,14.83,25.82,3.96,3 .12,0.35,0.09,0.54,0.42,0.00,0.05
GreeceCentr:2,18.32,13.83,23.15,11.70,25.72,4.92,0 .16,0.44,0.29,0.54,0.93,0.00,0.00
GreeceCentr:3,15.67,7.52,20.27,20.02,31.15,4.51,0. 24,0.00,0.01,0.55,0.04,0.00,0.01
GreeceCentr:4,13.33,12.72,23.04,16.68,28.49,3.04,1 .74,0.29,0.27,0.40,0.01,0.00,0.00
GreeceCentr:5,20.20,17.04,21.23,13.50,21.94,3.99,0 .00,0.01,1.46,0.16,0.48,0.00,0.00
GreeceCentr:6,20.94,17.11,21.23,12.07,24.52,3.23,0 .00,0.01,0.00,0.02,0.59,0.22,0.06
GreeceCentr:7,17.17,15.23,16.92,17.81,29.30,1.96,0 .01,0.85,0.00,0.41,0.28,0.05,0.01
GreeceCentr:8,16.54,9.69,21.12,14.84,30.76,5.70,0. 02,0.56,0.00,0.00,0.76,0.00,0.00
GreeceCentr:9,21.97,17.62,20.81,10.57,23.03,3.46,0 .60,0.40,0.02,1.06,0.46,0.00,0.00
GreeceCentr:10,15.09,10.84,19.66,14.59,32.27,5.76, 0.06,0.00,1.14,0.53,0.05,0.00,0.00



One of the two Thessaloniki samples, Greek-2.DG I posted their fstats and if you think that native Macedonian Greeks score 8% Steppe and 21% Ganj-Dareh, then I don't know what else to tell you.


that one isn't from Thessaloniki, his location is unspecified. it says just "Greek, Greece" in the anno file.

[kingmob]

lol no, I'm pretty sure bout this.
how could I prove antyhing with F-stats? I don't have non-academic Greek raw data to compare these samples to.
that one isn't from Thessaloniki, his location is unspecified. it says just "Greek, Greece" in the anno file.


Mate .... seriously.

You argue for objective validity of PCAs, then you present me with bogus clustering by abusing distant populations.

Using your own website and database:

Random picks!



Target: Greek_Athens_o:TLA026
Distance: 0.2482% / 0.24818222
26.9 Greek_Ikaria
14.9 Greek_Karpathos
10.5 Greek_Euboea_South
7.9 Jew_Caucasus
6.9 Laz
6.6 Italian_North
6.5 Sardinian
5.6 Greek_Pontus
4.2 Greek_Lefkada
3.6 Cypriot_Greek
3.5 Greek_Tsakonia
1.3 French_Aquitaine
0.9 Jat_Punjab
0.4 Basque_France
0.2 Karitiana
0.1 Yoruban

Target: Greek_Athens:TLA028
Distance: 0.6751% / 0.67508065
34.2 Greek_Arcadia
24.9 Greek_Kastellorizo
22.2 Greek_Lefkada
3.5 Greek_Epirus
3.5 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
3.5 Polish_Greater_Poland
3.5 Pomak_Bulgaria
2.3 Laz
0.7 German_Southeast
0.6 Sudanese
0.5 Samaritan
0.3 Baka
0.3 Bantu_Southwest_Africa.


Target: Greek_Athens:TLA021
Distance: 0.5394% / 0.53942599
47.6 Greek_Samos
12.1 Laz
7.7 Greek_Euboea_South
7.2 Basque_France
6.2 Georgian
6.2 Sardinian
4.4 Swiss_German
4.1 Pomak_Bulgaria
2.0 German_Southeast
1.8 Dai
0.4 Yoruban
0.2 Lemko_Poland
0.1 Papuan

Target: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP5
Distance: 1.7612% / 1.76118930
31.8 Greek_Epirus
17.8 Greek_Lefkada
10.6 Sardinian
10.3 Greek_Tsakonia
10.2 Greek_Florina
8.2 Greek_Kastellorizo
6.6 Latvian
2.3 Greek_West
2.0 Ho
0.2 Dai

Target: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP3
Distance: 2.1544% / 2.15440602
29.7 Latvian
25.3 Greek_Kastellorizo
22.8 Sardinian
20.9 Cypriot_Greek
0.7 Lebanese_Christian
0.5 Selkup
0.1 Maya


etc, etc.

You want to tell me there's not a large amount of mixed individuals in this set that push the 'mainland' component towards the islands?

Are you serious?

[kingmob]

that one isn't from Thessaloniki, his location is unspecified. it says just "Greek, Greece" in the anno file.

It is from Thessaloniki, it's from Mallick2016, I will hunt down the .xls with the Thessaloniki tag and link it so you don't think I am pulling stuff out of thin air, I thought I had it saved but I don't.

[vbnetkhio]

Mate .... seriously.

You argue for objective validity of PCAs, then you present me with a bogus clustering by abusing distant populations.

Using your own website and database:

Random picks!

[spoiler]

Target: Greek_Athens_o:TLA026
Distance: 0.2482% / 0.24818222
26.9 Greek_Ikaria
14.9 Greek_Karpathos
10.5 Greek_Euboea_South
7.9 Jew_Caucasus
6.9 Laz
6.6 Italian_North
6.5 Sardinian
5.6 Greek_Pontus
4.2 Greek_Lefkada
3.6 Cypriot_Greek
3.5 Greek_Tsakonia
1.3 French_Aquitaine
0.9 Jat_Punjab
0.4 Basque_France
0.2 Karitiana
0.1 Yoruban

Target: Greek_Athens:TLA028
Distance: 0.6751% / 0.67508065
34.2 Greek_Arcadia
24.9 Greek_Kastellorizo
22.2 Greek_Lefkada
3.5 Greek_Epirus
3.5 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
3.5 Polish_Greater_Poland
3.5 Pomak_Bulgaria
2.3 Laz
0.7 German_Southeast
0.6 Sudanese
0.5 Samaritan
0.3 Baka
0.3 Bantu_Southwest_Africa.


Target: Greek_Athens:TLA021
Distance: 0.5394% / 0.53942599
47.6 Greek_Samos
12.1 Laz
7.7 Greek_Euboea_South
7.2 Basque_France
6.2 Georgian
6.2 Sardinian
4.4 Swiss_German
4.1 Pomak_Bulgaria
2.0 German_Southeast
1.8 Dai
0.4 Yoruban
0.2 Lemko_Poland
0.1 Papuan

Target: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP5
Distance: 1.7612% / 1.76118930
31.8 Greek_Epirus
17.8 Greek_Lefkada
10.6 Sardinian
10.3 Greek_Tsakonia
10.2 Greek_Florina
8.2 Greek_Kastellorizo
6.6 Latvian
2.3 Greek_West
2.0 Ho
0.2 Dai

Target: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP3
Distance: 2.1544% / 2.15440602
29.7 Latvian
25.3 Greek_Kastellorizo
22.8 Sardinian
20.9 Cypriot_Greek
0.7 Lebanese_Christian
0.5 Selkup
0.1 Maya


etc, etc.

You want to tell me there's not a large amount of mixed individuals in this set that push the 'mainland' component towards the islands?

Are you serious?

I don't consider Athenians to be typical mainland Greeks. They are central Greeks, transitional between mainland and islands.

I actually marked that Athenian sample as an outlier, because he looks fully Islander.
But he isn't a huge outlier (as you can see on the PCA) , because all Athenians and Central Greeks are Islander shifted.


There's nothing weird about the Thessaloniki sample, typical northern Greeks results.

[kingmob]

I don't consider Athenians to be typical mainland Greeks. They are central Greeks, transitional between mainland and islands.

There's nothing weird about the Thessaloniki sample, typical northern Greeks results.

Athens has a population of 4+ million and it's a hub for all sorts of Greek groups mixing, there's nothing uniform about them that would make them "Central" or w/e other imaginary anthro-tag.

The Thessaloniki sample scoring 20% Cyprus, 22% Sardinian, and 25% Kastelorizo (which is essentially Cyprus) is not mixed but just another normal Slavophone Greek :picard1:.

Let's just agree to disagree, people can see the data and decide for themselves.


Athenians talking about their origins, with subtitles:



https://youtu.be/HbvC-WIBpu0

[Jana]

I simplified Greek averages in main (bigger regions) sheet.

[vbnetkhio]

Athens has a population of 4+ million and it's a hub for all sorts of Greek groups mixing, there's nothing uniform about them that would make them "Central" or w/e other imaginary anthro-tag.

The Thessaloniki sample scoring 20% Cyprus, 22% Sardinian, and 25% Kastelorizo (which is essentially Cyprus) is not mixed but just another normal Slavophone Greek.

Let's just agree to disagree, people can see the data and decide for themselves.


Athenians talking about their origins, with subtitles:



https://youtu.be/HbvC-WIBpu0

I know, but these samples aren't that, they obviously tested only people with rural origins not too far from Athens and Thessaloniki, or they cut out outliers before publishing.
If you are interested, I can show you "Macedonian Greek" samples from another study which actually tested all residents without such filtering, so you can compare.



The Thessaloniki sample scoring 20% Cyprus, 22% Sardinian, and 25% Kastelorizo (which is essentially Cyprus) is not mixed but just another normal Slavophone Greek.


but he also has a ton of Latvian along with that, so those are obviously proxies for his pre-Slavic ancestry, many Bulgarians, Moldovans etc. can score similarly.

[kingmob]

but he also has a ton of Latvian along with that, so those are obviously proxies for his pre-Slavic ancestry, many Bulgarians, Moldovans etc. can score similarly.


This is what a Slavophone, non-mixed with Anatolians, Greek looks like:


BIG:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.5588% / 0.55882625
33.4 Greek_North
32.0 Albanian
14.7 Torbesh
13.2 Moldovan_South
4.4 Lemko_Poland
1.5 Latvian
0.7 Jew_Ashkenazi
0.1 Austrian_Carinthia

SMALL:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.1363% / 0.13631743
29.1 Greek_Epirus
17.1 Greek_West
13.9 Albanian_North_Albania
12.3 Croat_Slavonia
8.0 Greek_Lefkada
7.2 Serb_WestSerbia
3.0 German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow)
2.6 Greek_Kastellorizo
2.1 Sardinian
1.9 Greek_Messenia
1.1 Macedonian_North
0.9 Moldovan_South
0.8 Latvian


He/she doesn't score 45% Cyprus, i.e. West Asia, like the other person.

We can run around in circles and pretend that the 45%+ West Asian Thessaloniki sample isn't a mixed individual, and invent all sorts of imaginary pre-6th/7th century admixtures, but the truth of the matter is, that he/she almost certainly is.

[vbnetkhio]

This is what a Slavophone, non-mixed with Anatolians, Greek looks like:


BIG:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.5588% / 0.55882625
33.4 Greek_North
32.0 Albanian
14.7 Torbesh
13.2 Moldovan_South
4.4 Lemko_Poland
1.5 Latvian
0.7 Jew_Ashkenazi
0.1 Austrian_Carinthia

SMALL:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.1363% / 0.13631743
29.1 Greek_Epirus
17.1 Greek_West
13.9 Albanian_North_Albania
12.3 Croat_Slavonia
8.0 Greek_Lefkada
7.2 Serb_WestSerbia
3.0 German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow)
2.6 Greek_Kastellorizo
2.1 Sardinian
1.9 Greek_Messenia
1.1 Macedonian_North
0.9 Moldovan_South
0.8 Latvian


He/she doesn't score 45% Cyprus, i.e. West Asia, like the other person.

We can run around in circles and pretend that the 45%+ West Asian Thessaloniki sample isn't a mixed individual, and invent all sorts of imaginary pre-6th/7th century admixtures, but the truth of the matter is, that he/she almost certainly is.

he could be, but since he has such high Slavic he's probably just a northern Greek with some ancient Anatolian admixture.
recent Anatolian or Cyprian would decrease his Slavicness.

check out how Bulgarians score here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?333385-Bulgarian-GEDmatch-Results/page20

for example:

b,16.33,27.12,15.27,16.52,20.26,0.68,1.89,0,1.18,0 .23,0,0.14,0.37

Target: b
Distance: 1.5075% / 1.50754180
33.3 Latvian
25.7 Greek_Thrace
21.3 Turkish_East-Black_Sea
10.2 Greek_Kastellorizo
4.0 Sardinian
2.5 Greek_Pontus
1.8 Roma_Balkans
1.2 Mari

[kingmob]

That person is as far from Greek_Florina as Laconia is:



Distance to: Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
6.82209645 Greek_Florina

Distance to: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP3
6.76971934 Greek_Florina


It's pointless to argue about this, GREEKGRALPOP3 in no way, shape or form represent the pre-Anatolian-mix population of Slavophone Greeks like those Florina samples do.

This argument has run its course, unto other things.

[vbnetkhio]

That person is as far from Greek_Florina as Laconia is:



Distance to: Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
6.82209645 Greek_Florina

Distance to: Greek_Thessaloniki:GREEKGRALPOP3
6.76971934 Greek_Florina


It's pointless to argue about this, GREEKGRALPOP3 in no way, shape or form represent the pre-Anatolian-mix population of Slavophone Greeks like those Florina samples do.

This argument has run its course, unto other things.

This means nothing, you obviously didn't see much k13 results.
GREEKGRALPOP3 is just slightly more Bulgarian-like and the Florina average is more Macedonian-like.
GREEKGRALPOP3 could have origins from East Macedonia or Thrace, but not necessarily, he might as well be from the same village as the Florina samples.

but ok, let's agree that we disagree.

[lacreme]

These are the results of a woman from Elis, Western Peloponnese from a thread I recently opened


Target: Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)
Distance: 1.0118% / 1.01176957
30.4 Maltese
18.8 Greek_Lefkada
14.5 Swiss_Italian
10.1 Cypriot_Greek
9.9 German_North_Hesse
8.3 Sardinian
6.2 Jew_Sephardi
1.0 Italian_Piedmont
0.8 German_East_Prussia_Central


Yeahhh... I think it's more of a problem of the Eurogenes calculators and less so of the profile (outliers or not) of the Greek samples.

The same woman using her dodecad k12b data.
While I find unreasonable that she scores not even a single greek population (only at 0.5x ADC), her results here seems to me to be a little more "realistic" based on the history of her place of origin


Target: Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)
Distance: 1.0902% / 1.09020680
34.3 Albanian
20.6 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
18.3 Sephardic_Jew
14.4 Sardinian
5.3 Georgian_West
4.7 Algerian
1.4 Lithuanian
0.7 Dai
0.3 Cambodian

[vbnetkhio]

These are the results of a woman from Elis, Western Peloponnese from a thread I recently opened


Yeahhh... I think it's more of a problem of the Eurogenes calculators and less so of the profile (outliers or not) of the Greek samples.

The same woman using her dodecad k12b data.
While I find unreasonable that she scores not even a single greek population (only at 0.5x ADC), her results here seems to me to be a little more "realistic" based on the history of her place of origin

k12b unlike k13 can't tell apart Balto-Slavic admixture from a non-Balto-Slavic increased steppe, it modelled me as German + Italian I think, so I wouldn't trust that too much.

[lacreme]

k12b unlike k13 can't tell apart Balto-Slavic admixture from a non-Balto-Slavic increased steppe, it modelled me as German + Italian I think, so I wouldn't trust that too much.

What other calculator would be useful in her case?
(having in mind that her data is from Myheritage)

[vbnetkhio]

What other calculator would be useful in her case?
(having in mind that her data is from Myheritage)

g25 if possible. there are a couple calcs similar to k13 (eutest, k15, dodecad V3), but those will just show similar results to k13.
except those k36 maybe.

[lockdownboredom]

Target: Elis-K13-sim_scaled
Distance: 0.0072% / 0.00716066
41.7 Greek
28.4 West_Asia
15.1 Slavic
10.9 Italic
3.4 Balkan
0.5 North_Africa

Elis-K13-sim_scaled,0.111,0.1457,-0.0066,-0.0362,0.0129,-0.0111,0.0024,-0.002,-0.0012,0.0152,0.0002,0.0024,-0.0044,0.0021,-0.0095,-0.0014,0.0064,0.0006,0.004,-0.0032,-0.0017,0.0014,-0.0007,-0.0007,-0.001


Distance to: Elis-K13-sim_scaled
0.01045198 Greek_Smyrna
0.01144323 Greek_North_Aegean_Lesbos
0.01381563 Greek_North_Aegean_Fourni
0.01412445 Greek_Heptanese_Kefalonia
0.01424149 Greek_Cyclades_Andros
0.01497205 India_Roopkund_c.1800CE_(Aegean_Greek_Profile)
0.01528685 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Deep_Mani
0.01605751 Greek_Crete
0.01624938 Greek_North_Aegean_Ikaria
0.01658380 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_Tsakonia
0.01801139 Greek_Dodecanese_Astypalaia
0.01811115 Greek_Phokaia
0.01869184 Greek_North_Aegean_Chios
0.01925747 Greek_Heptanese_Kythera
0.02061838 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace_(Peloponnesian_Pro file)
0.02115582 Greek_Euboea
0.02143409 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania_Thermo
0.02178044 Greek_Central_Greece
0.02352573 Greek_Dodecanese_Nisyros
0.02355823 Greek_Cyclades_Santorini
0.02417064 Greek_Dodecanese_Kalymnos
0.02424567 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia
0.02467610 Greek_North_Aegean_Samos
0.02495915 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Monemvasia_Municipality_ o
0.02550804 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Monemvasia_Municipality
0.02568832 Greek_Peloponnese_Messinia_Exo-Mani
0.02655974 Greek_Western_Greece_Achaea
0.02748618 Greek_Central_Greece_Phthiotis
0.02774485 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Eurotas
0.02775736 Greek_Dodecanese_Kos
0.02800629 India_Roopkund_c.1800CE_(Balkan_Greek_Profile)
0.02968461 Greek_Dodecanese_Karpathos
0.03100545 Greek_Peloponnese_Elis
0.03256778 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Sparta_Municipality
0.03276530 Greek_Cyprus_(Aegean_Greek_Profile)
0.03374619 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03394814 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis_Dorida+Delphi
0.03438804 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.03461261 Greek_Smyrna_(Balkan_Greek_Profile)
0.03506118 Greek_Thessaly
0.03590281 Greek_Eastern_Rumelia
0.03622455 Greek_Peloponnese_Messinia_Messini
0.03648291 Greek_Peloponnese_Argolis
0.03766894 Greek_Heptanese_Corfu
0.03816233 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace
0.03968709 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia_o
0.04058349 Greek_Dodecanese_Kastellorizo
0.04179954 Greek_Dodecanese_Symi
0.04186523 Turkish_(Greek_Central_Macedonia/Possibly_Vallahades_Profile)
0.04488831 Greek_West_Macedonia_Florina
0.04533895 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania_Nafpaktia
0.04654506 Greek_Lycaonia_Ikonio
0.05017463 Greek_Cyprus
0.05035517 Germany_Medieval_Straubing-Bajuwarenstrasse_(Classical_Greek_Profile)
0.05189027 Greek_Cappadocia
0.05297189 Greek_Epirus
0.05474328 Iberia_Catalonia_Empuries_IA-Classical_(Classical_Greek_Profile)
0.05625770 Greek_Cappadocia_Kaisareia
0.05780678 India_Roopkund_c.1800CE_(Greek_Cappadocia_Profile)
0.06634374 Iberia_Catalonia_Empuries_Hellenistic_(Classical_G reek_Profile)
0.07265880 Greek_Erzurum
0.07672789 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.08075632 Greek_Pontus
0.08558839 Greek_Cyprus_(Lebanese_Christian_Maronite_Profile)

[catgeorge]

This is what a Slavophone, non-mixed with Anatolians, Greek looks like:


BIG:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.5588% / 0.55882625
33.4 Greek_North
32.0 Albanian
14.7 Torbesh
13.2 Moldovan_South
4.4 Lemko_Poland
1.5 Latvian
0.7 Jew_Ashkenazi
0.1 Austrian_Carinthia

SMALL:
Target: Greek_Florina
Distance: 0.1363% / 0.13631743
29.1 Greek_Epirus
17.1 Greek_West
13.9 Albanian_North_Albania
12.3 Croat_Slavonia
8.0 Greek_Lefkada
7.2 Serb_WestSerbia
3.0 German_Brandenburg_Outlier(Beeskow)
2.6 Greek_Kastellorizo
2.1 Sardinian
1.9 Greek_Messenia
1.1 Macedonian_North
0.9 Moldovan_South
0.8 Latvian


He/she doesn't score 45% Cyprus, i.e. West Asia, like the other person.

We can run around in circles and pretend that the 45%+ West Asian Thessaloniki sample isn't a mixed individual, and invent all sorts of imaginary pre-6th/7th century admixtures, but the truth of the matter is, that he/she almost certainly is.

Typical shifty Easterner - no where close

[kingmob]

Typical shifty Easterner - no where close

:lol::lol::lol:

Read the thread a couple of times more, in order to understand what is being discussed and spare yourself the humiliation, kebab master.

[catgeorge]

:lol::lol::lol:

Read the thread a couple of times more, in order to understand what is being discussed and spare yourself the humiliation, kebab master.

Your shiftiness and lies is insideous - typical Jew thinking in an attempt to influence and outsmart but we both know who is the dumbass here.

You need to be called out for your sickening bias against mainland Greeks.

[kingmob]

Your shiftiness and lies is insideous - typical Jew thinking in an attempt to influence and outsmart but we both know who is the dumbass here.

You need to be called out for your sickening bias against mainland Greeks.


OK, Socrates, thank you for your insightful contribution. You can now return to your duties serving iffy gyros to unsuspected customers.

[catgeorge]

OK, Socrates, thank you for your insightful contribution. You can now return to your duties serving iffy gyros to unsuspected customers.

Whatever you say Lazaridis lapdog

[kingmob]

Whatever you say Lazaridis lapdog


:lol::lol::lol:

[brechen]

Only jew greeks are descendants of Ancient Greeks. Modern greeks are just people who happened to live there. They ignored what was these ancient ruins, before North Europeans teached them. They didn't know what was to be the greek nationality, before hellenophiles teached them.

[Kenshiro]

To cut a long story short, let’s begin with the community’s K13 database:

Mycenean:



Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
11.09089266 Jew_Italy
12.58823657 Italian_Calabria
12.77117066 Jew_Sephardi
13.33522403 Greek_Ikaria
13.43077809 Greek_Andros
13.74573752 Greek_Rhodes
13.80313370 Maltese
13.83204251 Greek_Deep_Mani
14.13842636 Greek_Kalymnos
14.31002446 Greek_Nisyros
14.35136927 Italian_Sicily
14.45389567 Greek_Symi
14.71669460 Italian_Campania
14.90227835 Greek_Dodecanese
14.91801931 Greek_Karpathos
14.95787752 Jew_Ashkenazi
15.06763087 Italian_Apulia
15.25464192 Greek_Chios
15.27562765 Greek_Tsakonia
15.41751926 Greek_Kythera
15.46761779 Greek_Kos
15.67146132 Italian_Molise
16.07262580 Greek_Cyprus
16.17418932 Greek_Crete
16.30398418 Italian_Abruzzo


Jews, Greeks islands and South Italians seem pretty close, not a single “mainland” type in the top 25, with the exception of Tsakonia and Deep Mani (endangered species of the Peloponnese).


Same story with Helladic_EBA:



Distance to: Greece_Manika_Helladic_EBA
19.47616492 Jew_Italy
22.04608582 Jew_Sephardi
23.57222094 Jew_Ashkenazi
23.91034713 Greek_Andros
23.97507039 Italian_Calabria
24.59106748 Maltese
24.90149995 Greek_Deep_Mani
25.05905625 Italian_Sicily
25.08709628 Greek_Rhodes
25.09180942 Greek_Ikaria
25.10671822 Greek_Lefkada
25.40192512 Sardinian
25.47043188 Greek_Tsakonia
25.72141131 Italian_Campania
25.76209231 Greek_Symi
25.83348989 French_Corsica
25.83513886 Italian_Apulia
25.96375936 Italian_Molise
26.04136325 Greek_Kalymnos
26.11680493 Greek_Nisyros
26.14059295 Greek_Cyprus
26.32854345 Italian_Abruzzo
26.64211703 Greek_Kythera
26.73392975 Greek_Dodecanese
26.87042240 Greek_Karpathos


“B-b-b-ut mah Logkas Doric Greek and my northern Greek nativity!”



Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA
4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


Well, how about that, it looks like Albanians and North Macedonians, and even the Torbesh (!), can claim better nativity to Bronze Age Northern Greece than the “Greek mainland” types. If Doric Greeks end up plotting like that, then it's no brainer that both Albanians and North Macedonians have a better claim to ancient Macedonians (essentially a Doric group) than modern "mainland" Greek types do! At least, on an autosomals similarity level (not commenting on haplos, obviously).


“B-b-b-ut mah Lazaridis’ paper, K13 don’t count! Hurr … dur …”

Here’s where it gets interesting, folks.

Please, do keep notes, you can thank me later.

Here (https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pub/datasets/amh_repo/curated_releases/), you can find all Reich labs samples published (and some un-published), you can d/l the 1240+HO file and open it with a text editor.

You can then proceed to confirm that all modern Greek samples that were used to show similarity to Myceneans are either from Athens, Thessaloniki, or from Crete. The two biggest (and most-mixed) urban centres, plus the island that already shows similarity on the PCA.

Out of curiosity, I ran a simple neolithic model for a Thessaloniki sample, and what do you know? The sample comes close to the results of an island type (around 8% Steppe and 21.1% Iran_Ganj Dareh(!!!)). Obviously, a mixed individual that was picked based on their projected proximity to the Islands and thus to the Mycenean target for his paper?



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2127675239
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Greek_2.DG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Switzerland_Bichon.SG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 10 chisq: 10.349 tail: 0.410427911 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -10.349 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.130 0.484 -0.093
China_Tianyuan 0.229 0.553 -0.547
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.022 0.161 0.059
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.052 1.134 0.695
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.104 0.946 0.361
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.087 1.647 -1.501
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.419 -0.570 1.954
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.587 0.501 -0.292
Papuan.DG 0.256 0.398 -0.479
Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.183 2.015 0.665
Israel_Natufian_published -1.886 0.957 2.099
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.324 1.273 -0.840
ONG.SG 0.357 0.461 -0.372
A:
scale 528.910 607.687 1074.061
Turkey_N_published -0.533 0.335 0.396
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.866 1.468 -0.823
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.190 -1.215 -1.401
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.712 -0.507 1.097


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 4 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 10.349 taildiff: 0.410427911
B:
scale 775.884 322.447 399.503 305.841
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.263 0.329 -0.528 -0.162
China_Tianyuan -0.052 0.690 -0.117 -0.033
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.225 0.149 -0.086 0.015
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.483 0.608 -1.383 -0.224
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.924 0.741 -0.782 -0.114
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.851 2.136 -0.550 0.082
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.769 0.307 -0.312 3.110
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.407 0.736 -0.238 0.323
Papuan.DG -0.583 0.416 -0.263 -0.152
Switzerland_Bichon.SG 1.060 1.290 -2.056 -0.531
Israel_Natufian_published 2.284 -0.841 -2.251 -1.531
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.836 1.874 -0.452 0.686
ONG.SG -0.625 0.472 -0.389 -0.069
A:
scale 2.000 2.000 2.000 2.000
Turkey_N_published 2.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.000 2.000 0.000 0.000
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000 0.000 2.000 0.000
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000 0.000 0.000 2.000


best coefficients: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
totmean: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
boot mean: 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118
std. errors: 0.043 0.043 0.060 0.041

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1849 -801 -1427 379
-801 1877 -592 -484
-1427 -592 3630 -1611
379 -484 -1611 1717


summ: Greek_2.DG 4 0.410428 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118 1849 -801 -1427 379 1877 ...
-592 -484 3630 -1611 1717

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
0000 0 10 10.349 0.410428 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
0001 1 11 18.984 0.0613823 0.560 0.117 0.324 0.000
0010 1 11 22.783 0.0189629 0.670 0.117 0.000 0.214
0100 1 11 14.909 0.186693 0.618 0.000 0.247 0.135
1000 1 11 163.756 2.26733e-29 0.000 0.286 0.847 -0.133 infeasible
0011 2 12 66.272 1.58507e-09 0.731 0.269 0.000 0.000
0101 2 12 26.409 0.00939047 0.610 0.000 0.390 0.000
0110 2 12 30.876 0.0020579 0.733 0.000 0.000 0.267
1001 2 12 169.458 6.16227e-30 0.000 0.264 0.736 0.000
1010 2 12 303.898 0 0.000 0.521 0.000 0.479
1100 2 12 194.950 0 0.000 0.000 1.105 -0.105 infeasible
0111 3 13 115.911 1.28978e-18 1.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
1011 3 13 383.061 0 0.000 1.000 0.000 0.000
1101 3 13 198.053 0 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.000
1110 3 13 336.139 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 0000 0.410428 - -
best pat: 0100 0.186693 chi(nested): 4.560 p-value for nested model: 0.0327233
best pat: 0101 0.00939047 chi(nested): 11.500 p-value for nested model: 0.000696052
best pat: 0111 1.28978e-18 chi(nested): 89.502 p-value for nested model: 3.06317e-21

coeffs: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000340 -0.788055
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001021 2.202299
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.001322 -2.714466
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000531 -0.921993
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000459 Z: -1.119423

details: Turkey_N_published China_Tianyuan -0.000068 -0.145975
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya China_Tianyuan 0.002141 4.447657
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N China_Tianyuan -0.000293 -0.583381
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000108 -0.169980
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000060 Z: 0.138993

details: Turkey_N_published Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000290 0.898412
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000462 1.431364
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000215 -0.587247
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000050 0.120553
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000169 Z: 0.568312

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.000622 1.256217
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001886 3.719482
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.003462 -6.662542
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000731 -1.142808
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000298 Z: -0.651386

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.001190 2.629576
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.002298 4.694773
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001958 -3.833078
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000373 -0.577712
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: 0.000430 Z: 1.003181

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001097 -2.198591
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.006623 12.473419
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001377 -2.480566
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000267 0.385626
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000364 Z: -0.774729

details: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002281 -4.625870
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000952 1.819768
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000782 -1.458431
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.010170 13.827689
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000225 Z: -0.490340

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000524 -1.283623
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002284 5.437824
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000595 -1.319480
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.001055 1.999023
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000123 Z: -0.321650

details: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.000752 -1.997415
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Papuan.DG 0.001289 3.273648
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.000660 -1.593813
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -0.000498 -0.994063
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000536 Z: -1.502394

details: Turkey_N_published Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.001367 2.769527
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.004000 7.686398
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.005146 -9.689410
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.001738 -2.604670
dscore: Switzerland_Bichon.SG f4: -0.000163 Z: -0.353028

details: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.002944 5.690066
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Israel_Natufian_published -0.002607 -4.833593
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.005634 -9.983353
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.005005 -7.123963
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000264 Z: -0.558246

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001077 -3.001385
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.005811 14.747006
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001132 -2.854960
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.002243 4.294472
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000133 Z: -0.392831

details: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.000806 -2.232770
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya ONG.SG 0.001463 3.796444
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.000973 -2.383650
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.000227 -0.465866
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000587 Z: -1.727427

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.568
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.651
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.003
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.490
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.322
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -1.502
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.353
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.558
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.393
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.727
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 1.089
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.313
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.819
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.182
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.460
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.772
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.574
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.343
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.303
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.213
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.689
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.700
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.763
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.527
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.423
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.393
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.419
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.573
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.442
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.543
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.882
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.525
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.980
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.741
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.626
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.601
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.618
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.809
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.696
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.736
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.126
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.135
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.366
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.529
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.263
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.368
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG -0.611
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.487
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.211
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.168
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG -2.149
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -1.161
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian_published -1.262
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.287
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG ONG.SG -2.274
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.247
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.167
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.538
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.467
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.214
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -0.640
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.067
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.212
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -0.763
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -1.122
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.081
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.259
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.027
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.318
gendstat: Papuan.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.791
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.545
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.140
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.156
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.176
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.072
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG ONG.SG -0.886
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.266
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.601
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG -1.229

##end of qpAdm: 21.518 seconds cpu 1.487 Mbytes in use


Sneaky, imo, but who knows, maybe Lazaridis panicked after checking some "true native mainland" types and found abysmally low correlation?

Maybe I am wrong, and someone can cross-reference it and correct it (multiple set of eyes better than one), but somehow I don't think I am.


To be continued in the ethnography section ....


All comments and input welcome and appreciated!
I seem very connected and moldable also with Greece Logkas MBA as well as with Mycenaean samples, I didn't know it was Doric, cool
113337

[kleenex]

To cut a long story short, let’s begin with the community’s K13 database:

Mycenean:



Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
11.09089266 Jew_Italy
12.58823657 Italian_Calabria
12.77117066 Jew_Sephardi
13.33522403 Greek_Ikaria
13.43077809 Greek_Andros
13.74573752 Greek_Rhodes
13.80313370 Maltese
13.83204251 Greek_Deep_Mani
14.13842636 Greek_Kalymnos
14.31002446 Greek_Nisyros
14.35136927 Italian_Sicily
14.45389567 Greek_Symi
14.71669460 Italian_Campania
14.90227835 Greek_Dodecanese
14.91801931 Greek_Karpathos
14.95787752 Jew_Ashkenazi
15.06763087 Italian_Apulia
15.25464192 Greek_Chios
15.27562765 Greek_Tsakonia
15.41751926 Greek_Kythera
15.46761779 Greek_Kos
15.67146132 Italian_Molise
16.07262580 Greek_Cyprus
16.17418932 Greek_Crete
16.30398418 Italian_Abruzzo


Jews, Greeks islands and South Italians seem pretty close, not a single “mainland” type in the top 25, with the exception of Tsakonia and Deep Mani (endangered species of the Peloponnese).


Same story with Helladic_EBA:



Distance to: Greece_Manika_Helladic_EBA
19.47616492 Jew_Italy
22.04608582 Jew_Sephardi
23.57222094 Jew_Ashkenazi
23.91034713 Greek_Andros
23.97507039 Italian_Calabria
24.59106748 Maltese
24.90149995 Greek_Deep_Mani
25.05905625 Italian_Sicily
25.08709628 Greek_Rhodes
25.09180942 Greek_Ikaria
25.10671822 Greek_Lefkada
25.40192512 Sardinian
25.47043188 Greek_Tsakonia
25.72141131 Italian_Campania
25.76209231 Greek_Symi
25.83348989 French_Corsica
25.83513886 Italian_Apulia
25.96375936 Italian_Molise
26.04136325 Greek_Kalymnos
26.11680493 Greek_Nisyros
26.14059295 Greek_Cyprus
26.32854345 Italian_Abruzzo
26.64211703 Greek_Kythera
26.73392975 Greek_Dodecanese
26.87042240 Greek_Karpathos


“B-b-b-ut mah Logkas Doric Greek and my northern Greek nativity!”



Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA
4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


Well, how about that, it looks like Albanians and North Macedonians, and even the Torbesh (!), can claim better nativity to Bronze Age Northern Greece than the “Greek mainland” types. If Doric Greeks end up plotting like that, then it's no brainer that both Albanians and North Macedonians have a better claim to ancient Macedonians (essentially a Doric group) than modern "mainland" Greek types do! At least, on an autosomals similarity level (not commenting on haplos, obviously).


“B-b-b-ut mah Lazaridis’ paper, K13 don’t count! Hurr … dur …”

Here’s where it gets interesting, folks.

Please, do keep notes, you can thank me later.

Here (https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pub/datasets/amh_repo/curated_releases/), you can find all Reich labs samples published (and some un-published), you can d/l the 1240+HO file and open it with a text editor.

You can then proceed to confirm that all modern Greek samples that were used to show similarity to Myceneans are either from Athens, Thessaloniki, or from Crete. The two biggest (and most-mixed) urban centres, plus the island that already shows similarity on the PCA.

Out of curiosity, I ran a simple neolithic model for a Thessaloniki sample, and what do you know? The sample comes close to the results of an island type (around 8% Steppe and 21.1% Iran_Ganj Dareh(!!!)). Obviously, a mixed individual that was picked based on their projected proximity to the Islands and thus to the Mycenean target for his paper?



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2127675239
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Greek_2.DG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Switzerland_Bichon.SG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 10 chisq: 10.349 tail: 0.410427911 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -10.349 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.130 0.484 -0.093
China_Tianyuan 0.229 0.553 -0.547
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.022 0.161 0.059
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.052 1.134 0.695
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.104 0.946 0.361
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.087 1.647 -1.501
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.419 -0.570 1.954
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.587 0.501 -0.292
Papuan.DG 0.256 0.398 -0.479
Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.183 2.015 0.665
Israel_Natufian_published -1.886 0.957 2.099
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.324 1.273 -0.840
ONG.SG 0.357 0.461 -0.372
A:
scale 528.910 607.687 1074.061
Turkey_N_published -0.533 0.335 0.396
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.866 1.468 -0.823
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.190 -1.215 -1.401
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.712 -0.507 1.097


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 4 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 10.349 taildiff: 0.410427911
B:
scale 775.884 322.447 399.503 305.841
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.263 0.329 -0.528 -0.162
China_Tianyuan -0.052 0.690 -0.117 -0.033
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.225 0.149 -0.086 0.015
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.483 0.608 -1.383 -0.224
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.924 0.741 -0.782 -0.114
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.851 2.136 -0.550 0.082
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.769 0.307 -0.312 3.110
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.407 0.736 -0.238 0.323
Papuan.DG -0.583 0.416 -0.263 -0.152
Switzerland_Bichon.SG 1.060 1.290 -2.056 -0.531
Israel_Natufian_published 2.284 -0.841 -2.251 -1.531
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.836 1.874 -0.452 0.686
ONG.SG -0.625 0.472 -0.389 -0.069
A:
scale 2.000 2.000 2.000 2.000
Turkey_N_published 2.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.000 2.000 0.000 0.000
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000 0.000 2.000 0.000
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000 0.000 0.000 2.000


best coefficients: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
totmean: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
boot mean: 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118
std. errors: 0.043 0.043 0.060 0.041

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1849 -801 -1427 379
-801 1877 -592 -484
-1427 -592 3630 -1611
379 -484 -1611 1717


summ: Greek_2.DG 4 0.410428 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118 1849 -801 -1427 379 1877 ...
-592 -484 3630 -1611 1717

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
0000 0 10 10.349 0.410428 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
0001 1 11 18.984 0.0613823 0.560 0.117 0.324 0.000
0010 1 11 22.783 0.0189629 0.670 0.117 0.000 0.214
0100 1 11 14.909 0.186693 0.618 0.000 0.247 0.135
1000 1 11 163.756 2.26733e-29 0.000 0.286 0.847 -0.133 infeasible
0011 2 12 66.272 1.58507e-09 0.731 0.269 0.000 0.000
0101 2 12 26.409 0.00939047 0.610 0.000 0.390 0.000
0110 2 12 30.876 0.0020579 0.733 0.000 0.000 0.267
1001 2 12 169.458 6.16227e-30 0.000 0.264 0.736 0.000
1010 2 12 303.898 0 0.000 0.521 0.000 0.479
1100 2 12 194.950 0 0.000 0.000 1.105 -0.105 infeasible
0111 3 13 115.911 1.28978e-18 1.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
1011 3 13 383.061 0 0.000 1.000 0.000 0.000
1101 3 13 198.053 0 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.000
1110 3 13 336.139 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 0000 0.410428 - -
best pat: 0100 0.186693 chi(nested): 4.560 p-value for nested model: 0.0327233
best pat: 0101 0.00939047 chi(nested): 11.500 p-value for nested model: 0.000696052
best pat: 0111 1.28978e-18 chi(nested): 89.502 p-value for nested model: 3.06317e-21

coeffs: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000340 -0.788055
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001021 2.202299
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.001322 -2.714466
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000531 -0.921993
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000459 Z: -1.119423

details: Turkey_N_published China_Tianyuan -0.000068 -0.145975
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya China_Tianyuan 0.002141 4.447657
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N China_Tianyuan -0.000293 -0.583381
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000108 -0.169980
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000060 Z: 0.138993

details: Turkey_N_published Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000290 0.898412
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000462 1.431364
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000215 -0.587247
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000050 0.120553
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000169 Z: 0.568312

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.000622 1.256217
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001886 3.719482
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.003462 -6.662542
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000731 -1.142808
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000298 Z: -0.651386

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.001190 2.629576
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.002298 4.694773
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001958 -3.833078
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000373 -0.577712
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: 0.000430 Z: 1.003181

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001097 -2.198591
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.006623 12.473419
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001377 -2.480566
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000267 0.385626
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000364 Z: -0.774729

details: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002281 -4.625870
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000952 1.819768
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000782 -1.458431
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.010170 13.827689
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000225 Z: -0.490340

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000524 -1.283623
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002284 5.437824
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000595 -1.319480
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.001055 1.999023
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000123 Z: -0.321650

details: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.000752 -1.997415
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Papuan.DG 0.001289 3.273648
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.000660 -1.593813
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -0.000498 -0.994063
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000536 Z: -1.502394

details: Turkey_N_published Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.001367 2.769527
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.004000 7.686398
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.005146 -9.689410
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.001738 -2.604670
dscore: Switzerland_Bichon.SG f4: -0.000163 Z: -0.353028

details: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.002944 5.690066
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Israel_Natufian_published -0.002607 -4.833593
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.005634 -9.983353
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.005005 -7.123963
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000264 Z: -0.558246

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001077 -3.001385
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.005811 14.747006
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001132 -2.854960
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.002243 4.294472
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000133 Z: -0.392831

details: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.000806 -2.232770
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya ONG.SG 0.001463 3.796444
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.000973 -2.383650
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.000227 -0.465866
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000587 Z: -1.727427

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.568
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.651
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.003
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.490
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.322
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -1.502
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.353
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.558
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.393
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.727
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 1.089
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.313
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.819
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.182
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.460
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.772
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.574
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.343
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.303
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.213
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.689
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.700
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.763
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.527
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.423
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.393
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.419
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.573
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.442
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.543
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.882
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.525
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.980
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.741
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.626
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.601
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.618
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.809
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.696
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.736
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.126
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.135
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.366
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.529
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.263
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.368
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG -0.611
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.487
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.211
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.168
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG -2.149
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -1.161
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian_published -1.262
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.287
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG ONG.SG -2.274
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.247
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.167
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.538
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.467
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.214
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -0.640
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.067
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.212
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -0.763
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -1.122
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.081
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.259
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.027
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.318
gendstat: Papuan.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.791
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.545
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.140
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.156
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.176
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.072
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG ONG.SG -0.886
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.266
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.601
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG -1.229

##end of qpAdm: 21.518 seconds cpu 1.487 Mbytes in use


Sneaky, imo, but who knows, maybe Lazaridis panicked after checking some "true native mainland" types and found abysmally low correlation?

Maybe I am wrong, and someone can cross-reference it and correct it (multiple set of eyes better than one), but somehow I don't think I am.


To be continued in the ethnography section ....


All comments and input welcome and appreciated!

Well I'm a mainland Greek with roots in the Peloponnese but I do have 1/4 Arvanite as well. I cluster really closely with the Helladic MBA Log. 2 sample which I'm guessing would be similar to Classical era Northern Greeks (Macedonians possibly).


Distance to: TC scaled
0.02801970 GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.04614172 GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04
0.08432160 GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.09058497 GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.09675394 GRC_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

[Anaximander]

It seems to me that modern Greeks should be grateful for the (100 year old, now) influx of Anatolian Greeks that pushed them further South-East and brought them close again to their supposed ancestors.

Imagine the embarrassment with such papers, otherwise!

Yes, we thank u for the Baklava, the Bouzouk, the Tsifteteli and the Turkish language that most of u were speaking..... Especially those from Pontus and Cappodocia, they were the best represantation of Hercules and Achilles, just on the oriental version

https://i.imgur.com/IVPpFK0.jpg

Like this Constantinopolitan actor.
cONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITAL OF THE RUMS. ATHENS IS CAPITAL OF HELLENES

[Anaximander]

Empuries2 are Classical Greeks, they are not different to Myceneans.

Empuries2 was an Anatolian colony, which Anatolian colony was in itself an Aegean island colony.....
U are braindead.......

[kleenex]

Empuries2 was an Anatolian colony, which Anatolian colony was in itself an Aegean island colony.....
U are braindead.......


No not correct. Empuries were Ionian Greeks who migrated to the Ionian coast from present day Delphi (look it up). They were actually Doric Greeks who settled on the Anatolian coast. The genetic makeup of Anatolian Greeks during the Bronze age was pretty much similar to mainland Greeks. I don't believe there was much mixing between the Greek colonists and the native Anatolians-whose ancestors were Hittite like.

[kingmob]

Yes, we thank u for the Baklava, the Bouzouk, the Tsifteteli and the Turkish language that most of u were speaking..... Especially those from Pontus and Cappodocia,
Like this Constantinopolitan actor.
cONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITAL OF THE RUMS. ATHENS IS CAPITAL OF HELLENES


Firstly, the bouzouki is an instrument that is absent in Pontic music and culture, same with the tsifteteli dance, so it is not my place to argue about them.

Secondly, ancient Athens was an Ionic/Attic entity, the same Ionians that controlled the Asia Minor coast, Pontus and Tauris. So Pontics and West Coast Anatolians truly are the carriers of Ionic legacy, especially Pontics who are the speakers of the only surviving ancient/Hellenistic Ionic language, spoken in the world today.

You, on the other hand, being from Epirus and all, have nothing to do with ancient Ionians, adding to the fact that you're probably of Hellenized Balkan-gypsy stock (judging by your lips on the photo and your complexion) so you're in no position to claim ancient Athenian legacy, whatsoever.


No not correct. Empuries were Ionian Greeks who migrated to the Ionian coast from present day Delphi (look it up). They were actually Doric Greeks who settled on the Anatolian coast. The genetic makeup of Anatolian Greeks during the Bronze age was pretty much similar to mainland Greeks. I don't believe there was much mixing between the Greek colonists and the native Anatolians-whose ancestors were Hittite like.

Ionians on the Asia Minor coast (and elsewhere) mixed extensively with Anatolians, Carians, Colchians, and others, it is written by historians such as Heorodotus, who, by the way, was Carian proper from his father side. So please stop talking nonsense since you're also clearly uneducated and clueless on the matter and also in no position to advocate ancient Hellenic legacy, since you personally are just another case of Medieval Albanian transplant.

[wvwvw]

Yes, we thank u for the Baklava, the Bouzouk, the Tsifteteli and the Turkish language that most of u were speaking..... Especially those from Pontus and Cappodocia, they were the best represantation of Hercules and Achilles, just on the oriental version

Bouzouki is a Greek instrument and it was in use in the antiquity with the name Pandouris. Unfortunately i can't find right now a photo of those small ancient Greek statues of Pandouris (bouzouki) players.

Look are the words Buz, Bouzouki and Byzantium and remember that u in Greek is the same as y. The Bouzouki was a Byzantine instrument descended from the Lyra.

The Bouzouki is based on and looks exactly like the Byzantine Lyra which is also the basis of the modern Violin.

Tsifteteli existed long before the Turks, it has Babylonian origins.

Many Turkish words are just corrupted Greek, the Turkish language of Turkish nomads were very limited when it arrived to Anatolia of no more than 100 words.

Constantinople was the capital of the Hellenes you stupid. Pontic Greeks have never been Turkish speaking. Their idiom is among the best preserved ancient greek dialects.

[Leto]

Why are there no ancient Greek samples from 500 BC through 500 AD? :confused:

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Why are there no ancient Greek samples from 500 BC through 500 AD? :confused:

Based on rumors I've heard there should have been an influx of Anatolians into Greece in the Hellenistic period, and the Greeks of Late Antiquity would look something like the least Slavic-influenced islanders.

[Leto]

Based on rumors I've heard there should have been an influx of Anatolians into Greece in the Hellenistic period, and the Greeks of Late Antiquity would look something like the least Slavic-influenced islanders.
Sure, thanks for the rumors. :thumb001::D

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Northern Greeks will probably have plotted in between "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" and "BGR_IA". Logkas is too ancient and even predates even the Minoan samples, so I wouldn't consider it.

We are all too far removed from Classical Greeks represented by Empuries to take the nativity thing based on them seriously.

https://i.imgur.com/806dGGL.png

[kingmob]

Northern Greeks will probably have plotted in between "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" and "BGR_IA". Logkas is too ancient and even predates even the Minoan samples, so I wouldn't consider it.

We are all too far removed from Classical Greeks represented by Empuries to take the nativity thing based on them seriously.




I mostly agree, the reason I referenced Logkas is because it's the most recent coping mechanism of "mainland Greek" posters to manage the butthurt of being outclassed by Italians and Jews in terms of genetic proximity to the ancient Greeks references on your PCA.

[catgeorge]

I mostly agree, the reason I referenced Logkas is because it's the most recent coping mechanism of "mainland Greek" posters to manage the butthurt of being outclassed by Italians and Jews in terms of genetic proximity to the ancient Greeks references on your PCA.

Your constant crying over mainland Greeks and Greek Islanders and pro everything else not mainland Greek is embarassing.

https://i.redd.it/qbjvn0thx1041.png

[kingmob]

Your constant crying over mainland Greeks and Greek Islanders and pro everything else not mainland Greek is embarassing.




Which PCA is that? Eurogenes G25?

If it is, allow me to educate you further:



Distance to: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.08560195 Greek_Dodecanese
0.08626036 Greek_Kos
0.08726742 Italian_Calabria
0.08767623 Italian_Jew
0.08770148 Italian_Campania
0.08811787 Romaniote_Jew
0.08956115 Italian_Apulia
0.09012881 Italian_Basilicata
0.09065182 Sephardic_Jew
0.09067957 Sardinian
0.09083830 Cypriot
0.09102876 Sicilian_East
0.09274329 Greek_Crete
0.09355268 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09457958 Italian_Lazio
0.09483340 Italian_Abruzzo
0.09569347 Italian_Molise
0.09594046 Maltese
0.09634611 Greek_Izmir
0.09692760 Greek_Laconia
0.09823761 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.09969182 Sicilian_West
0.09999971 Italian_Umbria
0.10045935 Tunisian_Jew
0.10120751 Italian_Marche

But you already knew that, didn't you. You're just linking random stuff to see if anything sticks.

And I haven't said anything about the islands, only about the Balkan medieval transplants, aka "mainland Greeks".

I understand you are handicapped, judging by the confused cross-eyed look on your avatar (if that is really you), but please do try and keep up, kebab man.


PS. Still waiting on that R1b clade of yours to prove your ancient Greekness, I told you I'll eat crow.

:lol:

[Anaximander]

I mostly agree, the reason I referenced Logkas is because it's the most recent coping mechanism of "mainland Greek" posters to manage the butthurt of being outclassed by Italians and Jews in terms of genetic proximity to the ancient Greeks references on your PCA.

Do u have classical period Athenian samples to compare with modern ''mainland'' Greeks and Islanders???
Or just the colony of the colony of the colony of Athenians?

[kingmob]

Do u have classical period Athenian samples to compare with modern ''mainland'' Greeks and Islanders???
Or just the colony of the colony of the colony of Athenians?

I don't have classical period Athenian samples, no one does.

There is only a leak about an upcoming Classical (?) Greek sample from Marathon who plots like a Dodecanese/Cypriot, so more butthurt incoming for Hellenised Balkan gypsies like you, who want to claim the ancient Ionian legacy; which, btw, is nothing bad in itself, only when your OWD ass tries to gatekeep Greekness from the actual Ionian speakers and remaining carriers of Ionian legacy, ie Pontics, etc.

[Anaximander]

I don't have classical period Athenian samples, no one does.

There is only a leak about an upcoming Classical (?) Greek sample from Marathon who plots like a Dodecanese/Cypriot, so more butthurt incoming for Hellenised Balkan gypsies like you, who want to claim the ancient Ionian legacy; which, btw, is nothing bad in itself, only when your OWD ass tries to gatekeep Greekness from the actual Ionian speakers and remaining carriers of Ionian legacy, ie Pontics, etc.

I dont have anything against pontians, i have against the label Pontian, because under this laber the last 30 years has come to Greece , καθε καρυδιάς καρύδι.
like the Russopontian football player Kourfalidis who looks Balto-Uralic, and u want us to perceive him for Greek.....!

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I mostly agree, the reason I referenced Logkas is because it's the most recent coping mechanism of "mainland Greek" posters to manage the butthurt of being outclassed by Italians and Jews in terms of genetic proximity to the ancient Greeks references on your PCA.

In turn, southern Italians are very different from the population that inhabited their lands in the early Iron Age, which will have been more Iberian-like. This is normal though, humans migrate, fuck and DNA changes. While it is true that southern Italians are more akin to ancient Greeks than modern-day mainland Greeks are, there is one exception. The Greeks of the deep Mani seem to be the closest of any Italian average.


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04715049 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04766329 Italian_Apulia
0.04778804 Italian_Campania
0.04857601 Italian_Calabria
0.04981762 Italian_Basilicata
0.04994000 Sicilian_East
0.05206948 Greek_Dodecanese
0.05321564 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05330776 Greek_Kos
0.05402369 Italian_Molise
0.05421812 Greek_Crete
0.05456770 Italian_Jew
0.05517479 Italian_Lazio
0.05586673 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05672532 Greek_Izmir
0.05782027 Sephardic_Jew
0.05795119 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05856061 Italian_Marche
0.05857155 Maltese
0.05863355 Greek_Laconia
0.05864152 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.05894507 Romaniote_Jew
0.05931578 Italian_Umbria
0.05957032 Sicilian_West
0.05993939 Greek_Laconia
0.06108172 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06177003 Greek_Argolis
0.06198743 Greek_Corinthia
0.06234446 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06288515 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06376561 Greek_Arcadia
0.06424201 Greek_Elis
0.06425034 Greek_Messenia
0.06445196 Greek_Achaea
0.06454709 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.06483070 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06550209 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06574429 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.06587012 French_Corsica
0.06597655 Cypriot
0.06601972 Italian_Tuscany
0.06611241 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06765953 Greek_Thessaly
0.06947841 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.06980663 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.07155573 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07191650 Albanian
0.07355938 Moroccan_Jew
0.07387353 Italian_Piedmont
0.07451102 Greek_Macedonia
0.07512192 Greek_Cappadocia
0.07620747 Greek_Central_Macedonia

Closest individuals to Empuries


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.03866787 Ariel90_girlfriend_scaled
0.04048512 Dimanto_uncle_scaled
0.04161262 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
0.04289032 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
0.04304460 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
0.04403300 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.04450813 Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled


Do u have classical period Athenian samples to compare with modern ''mainland'' Greeks and Islanders???
Or just the colony of the colony of the colony of Athenians?

Unfortunately, we don't have any. I have a feeling they will still find people with an even more shifted profile towards Anatolia or the Levant.

[kingmob]

In turn, southern Italians are very different from the population that inhabited their lands in the early Iron Age, which will have been more Iberian-like. This is normal though, humans migrate, fuck and DNA changes.


Yes, I agree with your comment, you don't have to tell me that.

I assume you are referring to the local clownshoes acting like gatekeepers of anything Greek while their grandparents spoke (still speak?) Albanian and Bulgarian.

[Leto]

Yes, I agree with your comment, you don't have to tell me that.

I assume you are referring to the local clownshoes acting like gatekeepers of anything Greek while their grandparents spoke (still speak?) Albanian and Bulgarian.
Dosas, aren't you half mainland Greek yourself and on top of that married to an Irish woman? Kinda hypocritical of you, praising Southern genetics online while nordifying/de-swarthifying your own bloodline in private life.

[kingmob]

Dosas, aren't you half mainland Greek yourself and on top of that married to an Irish woman? Kinda hypocritical of you, praising Southern genetics online while nordifying/de-swarthifying your own bloodline in private life.


First of all, I don't know what you're talking about in relation to my supposed private life, but, entertaining the chance that I do, people are attracted to each other and marry and have families because they love and admire each other (shocking I know), and not because of some sort of imaginary genetic hierarchy ladder that sad losers and incels obsess about over the intrawebz.

And the only reasons I find it logical for people to care about genetics is due to the supplementary information such a subject can provide to ethnography and anthropology and, of course, genealogy.

So, yeah, funny you mentioning that.

[Anaximander]

Dosas, aren't you half mainland Greek yourself and on top of that married to an Irish woman? Kinda hypocritical of you, praising Southern genetics online while nordifying/de-swarthifying your own bloodline in private life.


Isnt it funny that he praise swarthyness and on the same time he calls me Syrian, Gypsy and so on because of my lips?
This guy is a clown

[kingmob]

Isnt it funny that he praise swarthyness and on the same time he calls me Syrian, Gypsy and so on because of my lips?
This guy is a clown


Syrian? I never called anyone Syrian, I don't consider it derogatory, and I don't consider being gypsy as derogatory either, you should embrace your diverse heritage and stop using slurs against West Asian people (which you also belong to, by your own admission).

I see the "mainland" clownshoes brigade is resorting to making stuff up that I didn't say (catgeorge accusing me of targeting people from the islands, which I never have, and now you accusing me of doing the same with Syrian people) as well as pitiful jabs involving my hypothetical personal life.

Listen, guys, it's really quite simple. You're gonna leave Pontics and Anatolians out of your disgusting posts, because you really are disgusting human beings, the worst that modern Greece could ever conjure up, and I will leave you alone.

Or you can continue and I will fuck your OWD-sheit up.

[Anaximander]

Syrian? I never called anyone Syrian, I don't consider it derogatory, and I don't consider being gypsy as derogatory either, you should embrace your diverse heritage and stop using slurs against West Asian people (which you also belong to, by your own admission).

I see the "mainland" clownshoes brigade is resorting to making stuff up that I didn't say (catgeorge accusing me of targeting people from the islands, which I never have, and now you accusing me of doing the same with Syrian people) as well as pitiful jabs involving my hypothetical personal life.

Listen, guys, it's really quite simple. You're gonna leave Pontics and Anatolians out of your disgusting posts, because you really are disgusting human beings, the worst that modern Greece could ever conjure up, and I will leave you alone.

Or you can continue and I will fuck your OWD-sheit up.

Yeah, now i recall, it wasnt u who was calling me Syrian , but the other guy who got banned, and was an Albanian troll.
I have to apologize then.
But the main issue remains. How can one be looking MENA and Anadolid, or Mtbid, or Armenoid leaning litorid, or Uralid and Baltid and be claiming Greek heritage? speaking and praising MENA resembling swarthiness?

[Leto]

I'm not Greek myself and I don't think there is anything wrong with the Pontics. They were ethnically cleansed by Islamic Turks and now they seem to have largely assimilated in Greece. Sure, some of their phenotypes might be unusual in Europe but who cares. They have been Greek culturally for hundreds of years, I guess even before Christ.

[Kenshiro]

In turn, southern Italians are very different from the population that inhabited their lands in the early Iron Age, which will have been more Iberian-like. This is normal though, humans migrate, fuck and DNA changes. While it is true that southern Italians are more akin to ancient Greeks than modern-day mainland Greeks are, there is one exception. The Greeks of the deep Mani seem to be the closest of any Italian average.


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04715049 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04766329 Italian_Apulia
0.04778804 Italian_Campania
0.04857601 Italian_Calabria
0.04981762 Italian_Basilicata
0.04994000 Sicilian_East
0.05206948 Greek_Dodecanese
0.05321564 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05330776 Greek_Kos
0.05402369 Italian_Molise
0.05421812 Greek_Crete
0.05456770 Italian_Jew
0.05517479 Italian_Lazio
0.05586673 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05672532 Greek_Izmir
0.05782027 Sephardic_Jew
0.05795119 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05856061 Italian_Marche
0.05857155 Maltese
0.05863355 Greek_Laconia
0.05864152 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.05894507 Romaniote_Jew
0.05931578 Italian_Umbria
0.05957032 Sicilian_West
0.05993939 Greek_Laconia
0.06108172 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.06177003 Greek_Argolis
0.06198743 Greek_Corinthia
0.06234446 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06288515 Greek_Peloponnese
0.06376561 Greek_Arcadia
0.06424201 Greek_Elis
0.06425034 Greek_Messenia
0.06445196 Greek_Achaea
0.06454709 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.06483070 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06550209 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06574429 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.06587012 French_Corsica
0.06597655 Cypriot
0.06601972 Italian_Tuscany
0.06611241 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06765953 Greek_Thessaly
0.06947841 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.06980663 Sephardic_Jew_o
0.07155573 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07191650 Albanian
0.07355938 Moroccan_Jew
0.07387353 Italian_Piedmont
0.07451102 Greek_Macedonia
0.07512192 Greek_Cappadocia
0.07620747 Greek_Central_Macedonia

Closest individuals to Empuries


Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.03866787 Ariel90_girlfriend_scaled
0.04048512 Dimanto_uncle_scaled
0.04161262 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
0.04289032 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
0.04304460 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
0.04403300 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.04450813 Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled



Unfortunately, we don't have any. I have a feeling they will still find people with an even more shifted profile towards Anatolia or the Levant.

The community that has settled there takes the name of Manioti (Mανιάτες, Maniátes, in Greek) and is known for a long history of proud autonomy and strong attachment to Spartan culture and in general to ancient Greek culture (it is considered the sub-culture Greek more similar to the ancient one). Both the traditions and the community sentiment lead back to the permanence of the Doric element in the local "ethos", also testified by the dialectal peculiarities, it was the last part of Greece to convert to Christianity, remaining staunchly faithful to the Greek pagan religion until 900 AD. Moreover, the region is now one of the areas of Greece affected by the phenomenon of the pagan "rinas" (Italian Wikipedia) truly beautiful, it really feels like a romantic modern love story

[Roy]

I thought it was certain that they are to a significant degree.

[catgeorge]

Pontics are not genetically Greek nor European not even anywhere near genetically "ancient Greek".

If they kept their hot heads cool they would have still been at caucasus instead of behaving like wild apes when MAINLAND GREEKS were winning the war against Turks in 1922

The audacity of these monkeys is amazing

[kingmob]

Pontics are not genetically Greek nor European not even anywhere near genetically "ancient Greek".

If they kept their hot heads cool they would have still been at caucasus instead of behaving like wild apes when MAINLAND GREEKS were winning the war against Turks in 1922

The audacity of these monkeys is amazing


The events that led to the Pontic expulsion are not related to the Greco-Turkish war and 1922 but begin almost a decade earlier in 1915 as a direct result of the aftermath of the defeat of the Ottomans in the Russo-Turkish war. Pontics never participated in the Asia Minor campaign, "mainland" Greeks managed to get completely BTFO by the Kemalist forces entirely on their own merit, they had one job and one job only, to secure Smyrni, but, of course, both the consecutive Greek governments took it upon themselves to invade with the results that we all know.


https://i.ibb.co/pn5DJTj/Screenshot-2022-04-17-at-14-42-55-How-can-mainland-Greeks-possibly-claim-ancient-Greek-genetic-simil.png

You're calling people monkeys while looking like that?

Is this a joke?

[Zeno]

I have one simple question:

Why are you seething so relentlessly over mainlanders?

There are much more important problems than that, log off your computer for once. Just for once.

[kingmob]

I have one simple question:



Stick to posting Greek celebrity z listers with Albanian last names to feed your OWD complexes, little boy.

"Atlantomed" Greek, that's a funny one.

[Zeno]

Stick to posting Greek celebrity z listers with Albanian last names to feed your OWD complexes, little boy.

"Atlantomed" Greek, that's a funny one.

You need mental help.

[kingmob]

You need mental help.


Move along, boy.

[Renekton]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::pop2::pop2::pop2:

[Anaximander]

Move along, boy.

The Caucasian orks, came to tell us we have albanian surnames.......
Anatolian plebs, even Turks consider u plebs.

[Kosteece]

To cut a long story short, let’s begin with the community’s K13 database:

Mycenean:



Distance to: Greece_BA_Mycenaean
11.09089266 Jew_Italy
12.58823657 Italian_Calabria
12.77117066 Jew_Sephardi
13.33522403 Greek_Ikaria
13.43077809 Greek_Andros
13.74573752 Greek_Rhodes
13.80313370 Maltese
13.83204251 Greek_Deep_Mani
14.13842636 Greek_Kalymnos
14.31002446 Greek_Nisyros
14.35136927 Italian_Sicily
14.45389567 Greek_Symi
14.71669460 Italian_Campania
14.90227835 Greek_Dodecanese
14.91801931 Greek_Karpathos
14.95787752 Jew_Ashkenazi
15.06763087 Italian_Apulia
15.25464192 Greek_Chios
15.27562765 Greek_Tsakonia
15.41751926 Greek_Kythera
15.46761779 Greek_Kos
15.67146132 Italian_Molise
16.07262580 Greek_Cyprus
16.17418932 Greek_Crete
16.30398418 Italian_Abruzzo


Jews, Greeks islands and South Italians seem pretty close, not a single “mainland” type in the top 25, with the exception of Tsakonia and Deep Mani (endangered species of the Peloponnese).


Same story with Helladic_EBA:



Distance to: Greece_Manika_Helladic_EBA
19.47616492 Jew_Italy
22.04608582 Jew_Sephardi
23.57222094 Jew_Ashkenazi
23.91034713 Greek_Andros
23.97507039 Italian_Calabria
24.59106748 Maltese
24.90149995 Greek_Deep_Mani
25.05905625 Italian_Sicily
25.08709628 Greek_Rhodes
25.09180942 Greek_Ikaria
25.10671822 Greek_Lefkada
25.40192512 Sardinian
25.47043188 Greek_Tsakonia
25.72141131 Italian_Campania
25.76209231 Greek_Symi
25.83348989 French_Corsica
25.83513886 Italian_Apulia
25.96375936 Italian_Molise
26.04136325 Greek_Kalymnos
26.11680493 Greek_Nisyros
26.14059295 Greek_Cyprus
26.32854345 Italian_Abruzzo
26.64211703 Greek_Kythera
26.73392975 Greek_Dodecanese
26.87042240 Greek_Karpathos


“B-b-b-ut mah Logkas Doric Greek and my northern Greek nativity!”



Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA
4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


Well, how about that, it looks like Albanians and North Macedonians, and even the Torbesh (!), can claim better nativity to Bronze Age Northern Greece than the “Greek mainland” types. If Doric Greeks end up plotting like that, then it's no brainer that both Albanians and North Macedonians have a better claim to ancient Macedonians (essentially a Doric group) than modern "mainland" Greek types do! At least, on an autosomals similarity level (not commenting on haplos, obviously).


“B-b-b-ut mah Lazaridis’ paper, K13 don’t count! Hurr … dur …”

Here’s where it gets interesting, folks.

Please, do keep notes, you can thank me later.

Here (https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pub/datasets/amh_repo/curated_releases/), you can find all Reich labs samples published (and some un-published), you can d/l the 1240+HO file and open it with a text editor.

You can then proceed to confirm that all modern Greek samples that were used to show similarity to Myceneans are either from Athens, Thessaloniki, or from Crete. The two biggest (and most-mixed) urban centres, plus the island that already shows similarity on the PCA.

Out of curiosity, I ran a simple neolithic model for a Thessaloniki sample, and what do you know? The sample comes close to the results of an island type (around 8% Steppe and 21.1% Iran_Ganj Dareh(!!!)). Obviously, a mixed individual that was picked based on their projected proximity to the Islands and thus to the Mycenean target for his paper?



qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 2127675239
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Greek_2.DG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Russia_Sunghir3.SG
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
Papuan.DG
Switzerland_Bichon.SG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 10 chisq: 10.349 tail: 0.410427911 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -10.349 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.130 0.484 -0.093
China_Tianyuan 0.229 0.553 -0.547
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.022 0.161 0.059
Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.052 1.134 0.695
Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.104 0.946 0.361
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.087 1.647 -1.501
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.419 -0.570 1.954
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.587 0.501 -0.292
Papuan.DG 0.256 0.398 -0.479
Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.183 2.015 0.665
Israel_Natufian_published -1.886 0.957 2.099
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.324 1.273 -0.840
ONG.SG 0.357 0.461 -0.372
A:
scale 528.910 607.687 1074.061
Turkey_N_published -0.533 0.335 0.396
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.866 1.468 -0.823
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.190 -1.215 -1.401
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.712 -0.507 1.097


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 4 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 10.349 taildiff: 0.410427911
B:
scale 775.884 322.447 399.503 305.841
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.263 0.329 -0.528 -0.162
China_Tianyuan -0.052 0.690 -0.117 -0.033
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.225 0.149 -0.086 0.015
Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.483 0.608 -1.383 -0.224
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.924 0.741 -0.782 -0.114
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.851 2.136 -0.550 0.082
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.769 0.307 -0.312 3.110
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.407 0.736 -0.238 0.323
Papuan.DG -0.583 0.416 -0.263 -0.152
Switzerland_Bichon.SG 1.060 1.290 -2.056 -0.531
Israel_Natufian_published 2.284 -0.841 -2.251 -1.531
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.836 1.874 -0.452 0.686
ONG.SG -0.625 0.472 -0.389 -0.069
A:
scale 2.000 2.000 2.000 2.000
Turkey_N_published 2.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 0.000 2.000 0.000 0.000
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000 0.000 2.000 0.000
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000 0.000 0.000 2.000


best coefficients: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
totmean: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
boot mean: 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118
std. errors: 0.043 0.043 0.060 0.041

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1849 -801 -1427 379
-801 1877 -592 -484
-1427 -592 3630 -1611
379 -484 -1611 1717


summ: Greek_2.DG 4 0.410428 0.588 0.081 0.212 0.118 1849 -801 -1427 379 1877 ...
-592 -484 3630 -1611 1717

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
0000 0 10 10.349 0.410428 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118
0001 1 11 18.984 0.0613823 0.560 0.117 0.324 0.000
0010 1 11 22.783 0.0189629 0.670 0.117 0.000 0.214
0100 1 11 14.909 0.186693 0.618 0.000 0.247 0.135
1000 1 11 163.756 2.26733e-29 0.000 0.286 0.847 -0.133 infeasible
0011 2 12 66.272 1.58507e-09 0.731 0.269 0.000 0.000
0101 2 12 26.409 0.00939047 0.610 0.000 0.390 0.000
0110 2 12 30.876 0.0020579 0.733 0.000 0.000 0.267
1001 2 12 169.458 6.16227e-30 0.000 0.264 0.736 0.000
1010 2 12 303.898 0 0.000 0.521 0.000 0.479
1100 2 12 194.950 0 0.000 0.000 1.105 -0.105 infeasible
0111 3 13 115.911 1.28978e-18 1.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
1011 3 13 383.061 0 0.000 1.000 0.000 0.000
1101 3 13 198.053 0 0.000 0.000 1.000 0.000
1110 3 13 336.139 0 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 0000 0.410428 - -
best pat: 0100 0.186693 chi(nested): 4.560 p-value for nested model: 0.0327233
best pat: 0101 0.00939047 chi(nested): 11.500 p-value for nested model: 0.000696052
best pat: 0111 1.28978e-18 chi(nested): 89.502 p-value for nested model: 3.06317e-21

coeffs: 0.589 0.082 0.211 0.118

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000340 -0.788055
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001021 2.202299
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.001322 -2.714466
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000531 -0.921993
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000459 Z: -1.119423

details: Turkey_N_published China_Tianyuan -0.000068 -0.145975
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya China_Tianyuan 0.002141 4.447657
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N China_Tianyuan -0.000293 -0.583381
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000108 -0.169980
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000060 Z: 0.138993

details: Turkey_N_published Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000290 0.898412
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000462 1.431364
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000215 -0.587247
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000050 0.120553
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000169 Z: 0.568312

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.000622 1.256217
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.001886 3.719482
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.003462 -6.662542
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.000731 -1.142808
dscore: Russia_Sunghir3.SG f4: -0.000298 Z: -0.651386

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.001190 2.629576
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.002298 4.694773
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.001958 -3.833078
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.000373 -0.577712
dscore: Russia_Kostenki14.SG f4: 0.000430 Z: 1.003181

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001097 -2.198591
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.006623 12.473419
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.001377 -2.480566
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000267 0.385626
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000364 Z: -0.774729

details: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002281 -4.625870
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000952 1.819768
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000782 -1.458431
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.010170 13.827689
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000225 Z: -0.490340

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000524 -1.283623
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002284 5.437824
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000595 -1.319480
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.001055 1.999023
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.000123 Z: -0.321650

details: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.000752 -1.997415
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Papuan.DG 0.001289 3.273648
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.000660 -1.593813
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -0.000498 -0.994063
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000536 Z: -1.502394

details: Turkey_N_published Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.001367 2.769527
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.004000 7.686398
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.005146 -9.689410
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.001738 -2.604670
dscore: Switzerland_Bichon.SG f4: -0.000163 Z: -0.353028

details: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.002944 5.690066
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Israel_Natufian_published -0.002607 -4.833593
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.005634 -9.983353
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.005005 -7.123963
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000264 Z: -0.558246

details: Turkey_N_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001077 -3.001385
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.005811 14.747006
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.001132 -2.854960
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.002243 4.294472
dscore: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic f4: -0.000133 Z: -0.392831

details: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.000806 -2.232770
details: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya ONG.SG 0.001463 3.796444
details: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.000973 -2.383650
details: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.000227 -0.465866
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000587 Z: -1.727427

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.568
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.651
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.003
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.490
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.322
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -1.502
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.353
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.558
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.393
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.727
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 1.089
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir3.SG 0.313
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.819
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.182
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.460
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.772
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.574
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.343
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.303
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.213
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.689
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.700
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.763
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.527
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.423
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.393
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.419
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.573
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.442
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.543
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Sunghir3.SG -0.882
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.525
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.980
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.741
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.626
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.601
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.618
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.809
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.696
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.736
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1.456
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.126
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.135
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.366
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Papuan.DG -0.529
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.263
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.059
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.368
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir3.SG ONG.SG -0.611
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.487
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.211
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.168
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Papuan.DG -2.149
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -1.161
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Israel_Natufian_published -1.262
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.287
gendstat: Russia_Kostenki14.SG ONG.SG -2.274
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.247
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.477
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.167
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.538
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.467
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.214
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -0.640
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.067
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.212
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -0.763
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Papuan.DG -1.122
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Switzerland_Bichon.SG -0.081
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.259
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -0.027
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.318
gendstat: Papuan.DG Switzerland_Bichon.SG 0.791
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.545
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.140
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.156
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.176
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.072
gendstat: Switzerland_Bichon.SG ONG.SG -0.886
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 0.266
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.601
gendstat: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic ONG.SG -1.229

##end of qpAdm: 21.518 seconds cpu 1.487 Mbytes in use


Sneaky, imo, but who knows, maybe Lazaridis panicked after checking some "true native mainland" types and found abysmally low correlation?

Maybe I am wrong, and someone can cross-reference it and correct it (multiple set of eyes better than one), but somehow I don't think I am.


To be continued in the ethnography section ....


All comments and input welcome and appreciated!

Who's this bitch talking about Greeks?
Oh, let me guess, a hellenized Georgian.
Fuck off, retard massacred by islamicized Georgians.
You are just a piss of shit whom we made the mistake to welcome in our lands.
Evolutionary garbage!

[kingmob]

Calm down, "mainland" fags, especially you lot in the diaspora talking about "your lands", rofl. Most of you never even set foot in Greece or are able to string two sentences together in Greek. :lol:

So stop spazzing and go clean the tables that are littered with the disgusting gunk you sell as "Greek cuisine" to your unsuspected American customers.

We all know exactly how "tough" you are IRL. :lol::lol:

And don't forget to say thank you to Anatolians and Pontics especially, that you didn't end up speaking Bulgarian, as your official language, today and having borders at Lamia, oh sorry, I forgot, a lot of you "true Greeks" still speak Bulgarian today as your mother tongue, my bad.

:lol::lol::lol:


PS. How about a song to lighten up the mood, composed and performed by the true Greeks, of course, those in the "mainland".



https://youtu.be/OEC1QchQ0DI

[Anaximander]

Calm down, "mainland" fags, especially you lot in the diaspora talking about "your lands", rofl. Most of you never even set foot in Greece or are able to string two sentences together in Greek. :lol:

So stop spazzing and go clean the tables that are littered with the disgusting gunk you sell as "Greek cuisine" to your unsuspected American customers.

We all know exactly how "tough" you are IRL. :lol::lol:

And don't forget to say thank you to Anatolians and Pontics especially, that you didn't end up speaking Bulgarian, as your official language, today and having borders at Lamia, oh sorry, I forgot, a lot of you "true Greeks" still speak Bulgarian today as your mother tongue, my bad.

:lol::lol::lol:


PS. How about a song to lighten up the mood, composed and performed by the true Greeks, of course, those in the "mainland".



https://youtu.be/OEC1QchQ0DI

U are a clown and a propagator. These people i never claimed are Greek. They are Bulgarophones-Slavophones, and they are a 10% of the residents in Greek or so called by them Aegean Macedonia.
Trying to present them as the majority of mainland Greeks, is unhonarable.

Ah, and lets dont forget YOUR people in Turkey hanging flags of Kemal Ataturk ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOUZQbBbJw

[Kosteece]

Calm down, "mainland" fags, especially you lot in the diaspora talking about "your lands", rofl. Most of you never even set foot in Greece or are able to string two sentences together in Greek. :lol:

So stop spazzing and go clean the tables that are littered with the disgusting gunk you sell as "Greek cuisine" to your unsuspected American customers.

We all know exactly how "tough" you are IRL. :lol::lol:

And don't forget to say thank you to Anatolians and Pontics especially, that you didn't end up speaking Bulgarian, as your official language, today and having borders at Lamia, oh sorry, I forgot, a lot of you "true Greeks" still speak Bulgarian today as your mother tongue, my bad.

:lol::lol::lol:


PS. How about a song to lighten up the mood, composed and performed by the true Greeks, of course, those in the "mainland".



https://youtu.be/OEC1QchQ0DI
Retard, I was born in Sarande, Albania, and grew up in Athens, stool.
Northern barbarian-speaking Macedonians were slavicized. They are not Slavs and definitely have longer genetic distance from Bulgarians of Sofia than they have from Greek-speaking Macedonians.
Plus, you should not be speaking at all, stool.
Your ancestors spoke some retarded disgustingly sounding georgian dialect in antiquity, then you were hellenized (wise choice) in late antiquity and then turkified/islamicized in medieval times.
My ancestors have been speaking Greek fro millenia, bitch.
Shut your disgusting georgian mouth when talking about Greeks, Tanzimat bitch.

[kingmob]

Retard, I was born in Sarande, Albania, and grew up in Athens, stool.
Northern barbarian-speaking Macedonians were slavicized. They are not Slavs and definitely have longer genetic distance from Bulgarians of Sofia than they have from Greek-speaking Macedonians.
Plus, you should not be speaking at all, stool.
Your ancestors spoke some retarded disgustingly sounding georgian dialect in antiquity, then you were hellenized (wise choice) in late antiquity and then turkified/islamicized in medieval times.
My ancestors have been speaking Greek fro millenia, bitch.
Shut your disgusting georgian mouth when talking about Greeks, Tanzimat bitch.


:lol:

Diaspora fag, remain civil, you're not doing your kind any favors with your drivel.

:lol:

Yes, your Greek dialect is so ancient, you can barely make sense of the Hellenistic Bible texts were they to be recited to you, I am not even gonna mention ancient Greek proper in Homeric works or others.

Now, check out who is actually speaking Ionic proper and which university is funding a department for its survival due to its relation to Homeric Greek.



https://youtu.be/UcAYP4irSyQ


I'd say no small feat for a bunch of "Hellenised Georgians", don't you think.


Now, educate yourself and stop making a clown out of yourself, fag.

[kingmob]

U are a clown and a propagator. These people i never claimed are Greek. They are Bulgarophones-Slavophones, and they are a 10% of the residents in Greek or so called by them Aegean Macedonia.
Trying to present them as the majority of mainland Greeks, is unhonarable.


They are not 10% :lol:

They were 50% of the population of Macedonia post 1922, but now a considerable number of them are mixed with and Hellenised by the Anatolians and Pontics, the most dominant culture in Greek Macedonia (together with Vlachs) and Thrace (if you discount the Pomaks).

As for the Turks in Trabzon and adjacent areas, I can't speak for them, we share culture and genealogy but we have diverged in the past 100 years towards different pathways. I respect those Turks in Trabzon that I speak to who are nice and cordial and friendly and are interested in our shared heritage, because, newsflash, not everyone is a disgusting racist POS like most of your "mainland" crowd here.

Delinquents, the lot of you, modern Greece truly has fallen to produce such disgusting sorry excuses for human beings as you are.

[Anaximander]

They are not 10% :lol:

They were 50% of the population of Macedonia post 1922, but now a considerable number of them are mixed with and Hellenised by the Anatolians and Pontics, the most dominant culture in Greek Macedonia (together with Vlachs) and Thrace (if you discount the Pomaks).

As for the Turks in Trabzon and adjacent areas, I can't speak for them, we share culture and genealogy but we have diverged in the past 100 years towards different pathways. I respect those Turks in Trabzon that I speak to who are nice and cordial and friendly and are interested in our shared heritage, because, newsflash, not everyone is a disgusting racist POS like most of your "mainland" crowd here.

Delinquents, the lot of you, modern Greece truly has fallen to produce such disgusting sorry excuses for human beings as you are.

Nope, it have spotted the reason for the demise of modern Greece, its the tsifteteli and the Karamanlides as presidents. People like me never were influential or powerfull really, if it was this way, Greece would be much better. Also, the people from Trabzon u claim are nice and cordial and friendly, also wave Kemal's flags, and u claim you have a shared history with them..... Just to know each other......

[Anaximander]

They are not 10% :lol:

They were 50% of the population of Macedonia post 1922, but now a considerable number of them are mixed with and Hellenised by the Anatolians and Pontics, the most dominant culture in Greek Macedonia (together with Vlachs) and Thrace (if you discount the Pomaks).

As for the Turks in Trabzon and adjacent areas, I can't speak for them, we share culture and genealogy but we have diverged in the past 100 years towards different pathways. I respect those Turks in Trabzon that I speak to who are nice and cordial and friendly and are interested in our shared heritage, because, newsflash, not everyone is a disgusting racist POS like most of your "mainland" crowd here.

Delinquents, the lot of you, modern Greece truly has fallen to produce such disgusting sorry excuses for human beings as you are.

Nope, it have spotted the reason for the demise of modern Greece, its the tsifteteli and the Karamanlides as presidents. People like me never were influential or powerfull really, if it was this way, Greece would be much better. Also, the people from Trabzon u claim are nice and cordial and friendly, also wave Kemal's flags, and u claim you have a shared history with them..... Just to know each other......

[kingmob]

Nope, it have spotted the reason for the demise of modern Greece, its the tsifteteli and the Karamanlides as presidents. People like me never were influential or powerfull really, if it was this way, Greece would be much better. Also, the people from Trabzon u claim are nice and cordial and friendly, also wave Kemal's flags, and u claim you have a shared history with them..... Just to know each other......


Yeah, I've heard that before, nice try but there's nearly not enough of us to be held responsible for the demise of Greece.

The vast majority of the politicians are of Peloponnesian and "mainland" Greek ancestry with the odd islander like the current PM, no Pontics or Anatolians in prominent places, maybe a secondary/tertiary governmental cabinet here and there.

Your "mainland" leadership can't go for 100 years straight without a catastrophe/bankruptcy or getting BTFO'ed by the current version of Anatolians, ie the modern Turks.

Maybe if Pontics had leadership, things would be different, I mean, historically speaking, it was because of us and the other Asia Minor Greeks that your GDP doubled in the past 100 years, so you're welcome, I guess, you ungrateful POS.

[JohnnyP]

Mainland "Greeks" are actually assimilated Macedonians and Albanians, especially Northeast , Thessaly , there are not mainland Greeks.

[Italicus]

Yeah, I've heard that before, nice try but there's nearly not enough of us to be held responsible for the demise of Greece.

The vast majority of the politicians are of Peloponnesian and "mainland" Greek ancestry with the odd islander like the current PM, no Pontics or Anatolians in prominent places, maybe a secondary/tertiary governmental cabinet here and there.

Your "mainland" leadership can't go for 100 years straight without a catastrophe/bankruptcy or getting BTFO'ed by the current version of Anatolians, ie the modern Turks.

Maybe if Pontics had leadership, things would be different, I mean, historically speaking, it was because of us and the other Asia Minor Greeks that your GDP doubled in the past 100 years, so you're welcome, I guess, you ungrateful POS.

Really? Anatolian Greeks doubled the Greek economy? Come to think of it it's not that shocking, West Anatolian and Pontic Greeks have been known for their entrepreneurship in the Ottoman Empire. I'm curious, how did they double the economy?

[kingmob]

Mainland "Greeks" are actually assimilated Macedonians and Albanians, especially Northeast , Thessaly , there are not mainland Greeks.


I have no problem with how people want to self-determinate and which culture/language/religion they wish for themselves, their families and their communities.

The problem with the "mainlander" crowd here is their vulgar and racist behavior towards my own people from Anatolia/Pontus and their constant derogatory drivel, like they are supposed to be some sort of bastion of true Hellenism, when, in reality, they are anything but.

They just needed a couple of slaps, so to speak metaphorically, to remind them what's what.

[kingmob]

Really? Anatolian Greeks doubled the Greek economy? Come to think of it it's not that shocking, West Anatolian and Pontic Greeks have been known for their entrepreneurship in the Ottoman Empire. I'm curious, how did they double the economy?


Like you said, Anatolians and Pontics came from industrial or semi-industrial mercantile hubs that were beaming with economic prosperity, Smyrni, Trebizond, etc, and let's not forget Constantinople itself. And, of course, in Thrace places like Adrianopolis, Soufli, etc, those were economic powerhouses of the former Ottoman Empire.

The Kingdom of Greece barely had a functional university pre-Balkan Wars when Trebizond had 500-600 years under its belt as one of the main gateways to the Silk Road.

Do I really need to say more?

There's plenty of articles online, there was even one article by a Turk scholar in Trabzon complaining that the area lost out in growth with the Exchange since they lost all the merchants, industrialists, engineers and doctors with the Pontic Greeks being expelled and ending up with all the peasant stock from mainland Greece instead.

If you google there's plenty on the matter.

[Kosteece]

:lol:

Diaspora fag, remain civil, you're not doing your kind any favors with your drivel.

:lol:

Yes, your Greek dialect is so ancient, you can barely make sense of the Hellenistic Bible texts were they to be recited to you, I am not even gonna mention ancient Greek proper in Homeric works or others.

Now, check out who is actually speaking Ionic proper and which university is funding a department for its survival due to its relation to Homeric Greek.



https://youtu.be/UcAYP4irSyQ


I'd say no small feat for a bunch of "Hellenised Georgians", don't you think.


Now, educate yourself and stop making a clown out of yourself, fag.

My kind, Tanzimat chimp, has built empires and dynasties, generated and elevated human culture.
As if average straights can even belittle us.
Lmao, evolutionary garbage.

Neither can modern Romans understand Latin.
I guess, they should not be proud of their heritage.
Dude, what is the shit you are talking about?
Make sense, straight excellence.

You are not and will never be part of the hellenic world, Tanzimat leftover. Capisce?
First and foremost, 95% of you are ugly and completely different from mainland Greeks phenotypically.
Secondly, Mikrasiates and Constantinopolites are not of your stock, so stop claiming their capacity at merchandising.
You have been, are and will always be inferior people.
It's your DNA and you cannot change it, bitch.

[Anaximander]

Mainland "Greeks" are actually assimilated Macedonians and Albanians, especially Northeast , Thessaly , there are not mainland Greeks.Yes there are.....

Στάλθηκε από το SM-A600FN μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Kosteece]

Like you said, Anatolians and Pontics came from industrial or semi-industrial mercantile hubs that were beaming with economic prosperity, Smyrni, Trebizond, etc, and let's not forget Constantinople itself. And, of course, in Thrace places like Adrianopolis, Soufli, etc, those were economic powerhouses of the former Ottoman Empire.

The Kingdom of Greece barely had a functional university pre-Balkan Wars when Trebizond had 500-600 years under its belt as one of the main gateways to the Silk Road.

Do I really need to say more?

There's plenty of articles online, there was even one article by a Turk scholar in Trabzon complaining that the area lost out in growth with the Exchange since they lost all the merchants, industrialists, engineers and doctors with the Pontic Greeks being expelled and ending up with all the peasant stock from mainland Greece instead.

If you google there's plenty on the matter.

Major BS
Mikrasiates and Pontians are two completely different peoples.
You know you are evolutionary garbage and this confusion of the two speaks volumes about your lack of excellence at any field o human activity.
Shut the heck up, armenoid chimpanzee!

[Kosteece]

Nope, it have spotted the reason for the demise of modern Greece, its the tsifteteli and the Karamanlides as presidents. People like me never were influential or powerfull really, if it was this way, Greece would be much better. Also, the people from Trabzon u claim are nice and cordial and friendly, also wave Kemal's flags, and u claim you have a shared history with them..... Just to know each other......
The Karamanlides, despite their turkish surname, are indigenous to Serres. They are hellenized Thracians.

[kingmob]

My kind, Tanzimat chimp, has built empires and dynasties, generated and elevated human culture.
As if average straights can even belittle us.
Lmao, evolutionary garbage.

Neither can modern Romans understand Latin.
I guess, they should not be proud of their heritage.
Dude, what is the shit you are talking about?
Make sense, straight excellence.

You are not and will never be part of the hellenic world, Tanzimat leftover. Capisce?
First and foremost, 95% of you are ugly and completely different from mainland Greeks phenotypically.
Secondly, Mikrasiates and Constantinopolites are not of your stock, so stop claiming their capacity at merchandising.
You have been, are and will always be inferior people.
It's your DNA and you cannot change it, bitch.


Your post reeks of insecurity, you can't refute a single point that I've made, just fake macho talk, you're boring, man.

But I do have a question for you,


https://i.ibb.co/pztQGF2/Screenshot-2022-04-18-at-20-00-34-How-can-mainland-Greeks-possibly-claim-ancient-Greek-genetic-simil.png


Being a homosexual and a racist POS at the same time, how is that working out for you.

[kingmob]

The Karamanlides, despite their turkish surname, are indigenous to Serres. They are hellenized Thracians.

:lol::lol::lol:


This is where the Karaman-lides are from, educate yourself, boy, even if it is from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanids

"Native in Serres" :lol::lol::lol:.

[Kosteece]

Mainland "Greeks" are actually assimilated Macedonians and Albanians, especially Northeast , Thessaly , there are not mainland Greeks.

Slovopaeonian, no-one cares what you say.
Just because Germans fear the rise of the port of Thessaloniki, it doesn't mean what you say has any merit, whatsoever.
Alexander spoke a disgusting, inferior language like yours.
Sure, Jan!

[JohnnyP]

Slovopaeonian, no-one cares what you say.
Just because Germans fear the rise of the port of Thessaloniki, it doesn't mean what you say has any merit, whatsoever.
Alexander spoke a disgusting, inferior language like yours.
Sure, Jan!

yes man you are the best !!!

[Kosteece]

yes man you are the best !!!


Da, da, sllovo kako mietsi niganitski hulapitski slo mrno kak birbitsi.
That's how Alexander spoke.
Da, da, da...

[kingmob]

People see these delinquent and complexed wretches online and I wonder what kind of opinion they form about modern Greeks ...

Thank you, "mainland" Greeks of The Apricity, your contribution is definitely noted.

[Kosteece]

Your post reeks of insecurity, you can't refute a single point that I've made, just fake macho talk, you're boring, man.

But I do have a question for you,


https://i.ibb.co/pztQGF2/Screenshot-2022-04-18-at-20-00-34-How-can-mainland-Greeks-possibly-claim-ancient-Greek-genetic-simil.png


Being a homosexual and a racist POS at the same time, how is that working out for you.

First of all, I am not homosexual, which is vital, mainly because homosexuals do not sport the behaviors and the interests bi men, like me, do. I love my same-sex partner to death, though• I would sacrifice my life for him in a nanosec.
I am not racist. We are having a convo about peoples.
A Pontian, as a single person, as an individual, can be f-ing awesome. Sophia Moutidou is one good example. As a group, though, you are pretty damn inferior.
That is not racist. It is the historic, anthropological truth.

Plus, the Karamanlides are indigenous to the Serres valley. Look at Sophiana from this year's Survivor. The features are exactly the same.

[JohnnyP]

Da, da, sllovo kako mietsi niganitski hulapitski slo mrno kak birbitsi.
That's how Alexander spoke.
Da, da, da...

Niceeee you know Macedonian , that's good, I'm wondering from where...

[Kosteece]

Niceeee you know Macedonian , that's good, I'm wondering from where...
The Pella curse tablet, true Macedonian of Slovopaeonia.

[Renekton]

yes man you are the best !!!

Stick to Macedonian section and post some DNA here.
This discussion isn't for you.
Stop trolling here.

Best regards.
Hahns

[Italicus]

Like you said, Anatolians and Pontics came from industrial or semi-industrial mercantile hubs that were beaming with economic prosperity, Smyrni, Trebizond, etc, and let's not forget Constantinople itself. And, of course, in Thrace places like Adrianopolis, Soufli, etc, those were economic powerhouses of the former Ottoman Empire.

The Kingdom of Greece barely had a functional university pre-Balkan Wars when Trebizond had 500-600 years under its belt as one of the main gateways to the Silk Road.

Do I really need to say more?

There's plenty of articles online, there was even one article by a Turk scholar in Trabzon complaining that the area lost out in growth with the Exchange since they lost all the merchants, industrialists, engineers and doctors with the Pontic Greeks being expelled and ending up with all the peasant stock from mainland Greece instead.

If you google there's plenty on the matter.

Really? I thought there were at quite a few good universities in Greece, at least in Athens. By the way, it's a terrible shame what happened to Pontic, Cypriot and West Anatolian Greeks. Imo Greece should have invaded Anatolia after the Second Balkan War and taken the West and North coasts of Turkey as well as Constantinople and Thrace, to save the local Greeks from genocide. Cyprus should have been taken too. It's such a shame Greece is not bigger, the Megali Idea was pretty great.I am also a descendant of refugees, my great grandma was an Italian from what is now Croatia, she had to flee at the end of WW 2.

[Vasilisk]

Lol why so much hate towards mainlanders from this pontic Greek dude.What have Greek mainlanders done to you?? At the end of the day we are much closer genetically to myceneans than you will ever be

[kingmob]

Lol why so much hate towards mainlanders from this pontic Greek dude.What have Greek mainlanders done to you?? At the end of the day we are much closer genetically to myceneans than you will ever be


We never claimed to be genetically close to Myceneans, in all sources we are always referred to as Ionic/Carian/Colchian mix, and we're very happy about that.

As to how close you "mainland Greeks" are to ancients, refer to the beginning of the thread.

[Renekton]

Lol why so much hate towards mainlanders from this pontic Greek dude.What have Greek mainlanders done to you?? At the end of the day we are much closer genetically to myceneans than you will ever be

Με το προηγούμενο ακαουντ που είχε ήταν κομπλέ. Δεν ασχολιόταν πολύ. Τώρα το έχει τερματίσει.

Όλες αυτές οι κόντρες μεταξύ Mainlanders vs Eastern Greeks είχαν εδώ και 2 περίπου χρόνια σταματήσει κανένας Έλληνας χρήστης δεν ασχολιόταν.

Όλη αυτή η παπαρια δίνει vibes 2018-2020 τότε που υπήρχαν στο φόρουμ o Hellenas, dosas και nightrider.

[Kosteece]

We never claimed to be genetically close to Myceneans, in all sources we are always referred to as Ionic/Carian/Colchian mix, and we're very happy about that.

As to how close you "mainland Greeks" are to ancients, refer to the beginning of the thread.


I ain't talking about Southern Greeks. I detest ' em more than I do of Pontians, btw.
I shall talk about Northwestern Greeks. My people!
Oh, wait, there are not any samples...
Oh, wait, is that why Kosovar Albanians come up first when entering Dorian DNA into the calc?
I doubt it.
Original Dorians did not live in Epirus and Western Macedonia.
Dōr- is not a rhotacism of Dōn, as in Dō-dōn-a, land of the Dōnes, or Make-dōn, Highland Dōn.
No way!

[kingmob]

I ain't talking about Southern Greeks. I detest ' em more than I do of Pontians, btw.
I shall talk about Northwestern Greeks. My people!
Oh, wait, there are not any samples...
Oh, wait, is that why Kosovar Albanians come up first when entering Dorian DNA into the calc?
I doubt it.
Original Dorians did not live in Epirus and Western Macedonia.
Dōr- is not a rhotacism of Dōn, as in Dō-dōn-a, land of the Dōnes, or Make-dōn, Highland Dōn.
No way!

:lol::lol::lol:

Don't skip medication in the morning, man.

[Kosteece]

:lol::lol::lol:

Don't skip medication in the morning, man.

Sure!
Argumentum ad hominem!
Means you've lost the debate, bitch.

[kingmob]

Thanks for the bump.

[JohnnyP]

Stick to Macedonian section and post some DNA here.
This discussion isn't for you.
Stop trolling here.

Best regards.
Hahns

Yes boss , sorry, This discussion is for you, you have a lot to say, your existence here is a synonym for trolling , so stop talking about trolling.

[Renekton]

Original Dorians did not live in Epirus and Western Macedonia.

No way!

And where they came from?

[Anaximander]

Your people are turanian tatars.

Στάλθηκε από το SM-A600FN μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Kosteece]

Yes boss , sorry, This discussion is for you, you have a lot to say, your existence here is a synonym for trolling , so stop talking about trolling.

Claiming macedonian heritage is the epitome of trolling, sllovopaeonian bitch.
Sush and cry in the corner for appropriating someone else's culture!

[Kosteece]

And where they came from?

It was sarcasm, hellenized Georgian.
The original Dōrians were the Greek-speaking inhabitants of Epirus and Western Macedonia.
My point is that there are no samples from Epirus and Western Macedonia, not even South Albania (some of which was epirote at some point in history). That is why Kosovar Albanians sport the closest genetic affinity to Dorian samples.
I am the descendant of Dorians.
You are of some chimp called Malakashvili.

[kingmob]

:lol::lol::lol:

This is a good display of the cognitive dissonance and the levels of copium "mainland" Greeks feed themselves to deal with the fact that most of them can understand Bulgarian, Macedonian, Romanian and Albanian that they learned from their grandparents and that they sing in their festivals and converse in inside their social spaces as their mother tongue.

The reason they hate Anatolian and Pontics (and Thracians to a much lesser extent, mainly groups like the Gagauz) so much (not all of them, there's a lot of mixed marriages between the communities since the 50s/60s, more so than not, but referring mainly to the local apricity "mainland" OWD clowns) is because the latter are better representatives of Hellenistic/Byzantine culture, linguistically and culturally. So in order to understand the "mainland" OWD cognitive malfunction, you have to understand that they hate whoever reminds them that they are recent Medieval Balkan transplants and not really related (at least on an ethnographic level) to the progeny of our glorious Graecorum Empire.

On a personal note, when I made this thread in order to have a searchable internet stamp, so to speak, of the reality of "mainland" Greeks I could never have hoped better than the level of seething that has been portrayed here by theirs truly.

So thanks again for the bump, chumps, keep it up :thumb001:.


PS. Nearly 8k views for the thread, let's aim for 10k!

[Anaximander]

[emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]

This is a good display of the cognitive dissonance and the levels of copium "mainland" Greeks feed themselves to deal with the fact that most of them can understand Bulgarian, Macedonian, Romanian and Albanian that they learned from their grandparents and that they sing in their festivals and converse in inside their social spaces as their mother tongue.

The reason they hate Anatolian and Pontics (and Thracians to a much lesser extent, mainly groups like the Gagauz) so much (not all of them, there's a lot of mixed marriages between the communities since the 50s/60s, more so than not, but referring mainly to the local apricity "mainland" OWD clowns) is because the latter are better representatives of Hellenistic/Byzantine culture, linguistically and culturally. So in order to understand the "mainland" OWD cognitive malfunction, you have to understand that they hate whoever reminds them that they are recent Medieval Balkan transplants and not really related (at least on an ethnographic level) to the progeny of our glorious Graecorum Empire.

On a personal note, when I made this thread in order to have a searchable internet stamp, so to speak, of the reality of "mainland" Greeks I could never have hoped better than the level of seething that has been portrayed here by theirs truly.

So thanks again for the bump, chumps, keep it up :thumb001:.None said we are closer to Byzantines. For sure your anatolian folk is closer to the average subject of Byzantine empire.

Στάλθηκε από το SM-A600FN μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[kingmob]

None said we are closer to Byzantines. For sure your anatolian folk is closer to the average subject of Byzantine empire.




OK, glad we're getting somewhere.

Now, try to keep up, if we take the 19th century Ottoman Empire's population in the mainland peninsula and we subtract Ottomans, Byzantine Orthodox Christians (Rums) of Anatolian origin, Arvanites, Vlachs (all related groups), Macedonians, Bulgarians, other distinct groups (Gagauz, Pomaks, Armenians, Christian Kipchaks and Cumans) and gypsies, can you tell me who exactly is left?

If your answer is "the ancient pre-Byzantine, pre-Ottoman Greeks", then you have to provide proof for non-Byzantine ethnographic and linguistic continuity because obviously the genetics aren't there (see OP).

To save you time, there's none whatsover (with the exception of the tiny pocket of Tsakonia and maybe the most introverted parts of Mani), there is no "Greek" outside the scope of "Byzantine" and of course no linguistic continuity to ancient Greek, all modern Greek dialects spoken in Greece are either late Byzantine Romeyka, Pontic Greek being the exception by displaying archaic Greek elements (gerund and infinitive usage) but even that is also a divergent Byzantine language for the most part.

I am all ears as to where I am wrong.

[Kosteece]

OK, glad we're getting somewhere.

Now, try to keep up, if we take the 19th century Ottoman Empire's population in the mainland peninsula and we subtract Ottomans, Byzantine Orthodox Christians (Rums) of Anatolian origin, Arvanites, Vlachs (all related groups), Macedonians, Bulgarians, other distinct groups (Gagauz, Pomaks, Armenians, Christian Kipchaks and Cumans) and gypsies, can you tell me who exactly is left?

If your answer is "the ancient pre-Byzantine, pre-Ottoman Greeks", then you have to provide proof for non-Byzantine ethnographic and linguistic continuity because obviously the genetics aren't there (see OP).

To save you time, there's none whatsover (with the exception of the tiny pocket of Tsakonia and maybe the most introverted parts of Mani), there is no "Greek" outside the scope of "Byzantine" and of course no linguistic continuity to ancient Greek, all modern Greek dialects spoken in Greece are either late Byzantine Romeyka, Pontic Greek being the exception by displaying archaic Greek elements (gerund and infinitive usage) but even that is also a divergent Byzantine language for the most part.

I am all ears as to where I am wrong.

Yes, I am Albanian. You are Greek.
Ya happy now?
Truth cannot be changed, bitch, no matter what...
Pitiful you are, indeed!

[kingmob]

herpa derpa hur dur

:lol::lol::lol:

Careful with the macho talk, fag, you're gonna trip over your high heels :lol:.

[Kosteece]

:lol::lol::lol:

Careful with the macho talk, fag, you're gonna trip over your high heels :lol:.

Keep 'em coming!
They're just ad hominems.

[Anaximander]

OK, glad we're getting somewhere.

Now, try to keep up, if we take the 19th century Ottoman Empire's population in the mainland peninsula and we subtract Ottomans, Byzantine Orthodox Christians (Rums) of Anatolian origin, Arvanites, Vlachs (all related groups), Macedonians, Bulgarians, other distinct groups (Gagauz, Pomaks, Armenians, Christian Kipchaks and Cumans) and gypsies, can you tell me who exactly is left?

If your answer is "the ancient pre-Byzantine, pre-Ottoman Greeks", then you have to provide proof for non-Byzantine ethnographic and linguistic continuity because obviously the genetics aren't there (see OP).

To save you time, there's none whatsover (with the exception of the tiny pocket of Tsakonia and maybe the most introverted parts of Mani), there is no "Greek" outside the scope of "Byzantine" and of course no linguistic continuity to ancient Greek, all modern Greek dialects spoken in Greece are either late Byzantine Romeyka, Pontic Greek being the exception by displaying archaic Greek elements (gerund and infinitive usage) but even that is also a divergent Byzantine language for the most part.

I am all ears as to where I am wrong.

Youre right, there are not pre=ottoman, pre-byzantine Greeks, only pre-ottoman, prebyzantine albanians and slavs. Also georgians like yourself who are indeed Greeco-Anatolians.

[Renekton]

It was sarcasm, hellenized Georgian.
The original Dōrians were the Greek-speaking inhabitants of Epirus and Western Macedonia.
My point is that there are no samples from Epirus and Western Macedonia, not even South Albania (some of which was epirote at some point in history). That is why Kosovar Albanians sport the closest genetic affinity to Dorian samples.
I am the descendant of Dorians.
You are of some chimp called Malakashvili.

I'm Macedonian buddy not Pontian, you quoted the wrong person

[Kosteece]

I'm Macedonian buddy not Pontian, you quoted the wrong person

My bad, mate.

[Nausevar]

OWD? Mainland greeks plot further north than islanders and anatolians. The mixing with other balkanics made them more white if anything.

[Leto]

OWD? Mainland greeks plot further north than islanders and anatolians. The mixing with other balkanics made them more white if anything.
eupator is half Northern Greek himself. Check out "dosas" in the Members spreadsheet.

[kingmob]

eupator is half Northern Greek himself. Check out "dosas" in the Members spreadsheet.


Your obsession with this dosas is not healthy, mate.

Time to get out of the basement and have some fresh air, metaphorically or literally (or both).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

We still know very little about what the Greeks were like in ancient times, I hope these samples come out soon!


Thanks to my friends in Greektown, I've been alerted to a very exciting development in ancient DNA. It's called Biomuse, and it's a collaborative project focused on exploring pre-modern genomes from across Greece.

In the project's own words:



Here is the English language link to their attractive website:

https://biomuse.eu/project/?lang=en

The scientific teams leading the paper are, on the Greek side, the Laboratory of Physical Anthropology of the Democritus University of Thrace, and, on the German/international side, the Palaeogenetics Group of the University of Mainz. The scientists leading this project are the same folks that brought us the "Aegean palatial civilizations" paper (the one with Logkas, the Cycladics, and other cool Bronze Age genomes). As many of you know, I did take issue with what I felt was that paper's misleading insinuation that modern Greeks show 90% continuity with Logkas. This claim of extreme continuity tainted an otherwise interesting paper. Given a proper analysis of the transect the project is currently working on, I'm hoping such tendentious pretensions are not entertained in the future. We Greeks can be understandably sensitive about our ancestry given Balkan identity politics and recent history's litany of mishellenic racial theorists (from Nordicists like Guenther to replacement theorists like Fallmerayer), but overreaching or outright false claims of total replacement do not justify laughably implausible assertions of extreme continuity either. We need to be realistic about what's changed about Greeks since the classical era and beyond. There's no way any of us are 90% like anything that existed in the IA, let alone the BA. Let's hope future papers from the project avoid this kind of bunk.

The Greek team has a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31cb-uAqZXk) up on their Youtube channel, but it's in Greek so there's not much there to be gleaned for a general audience. Still, it's nice to put faces to names and to see the laboratory environment. The leaders of the Greek team in their element:

https://i.imgur.com/qtv5OB9.png

https://i.imgur.com/GiyUTWd.png

https://i.imgur.com/XdgKXLf.png

https://i.imgur.com/43HIPSJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/y4ThGK6.png

Now for the fun stuff. The Biomuse project has employed graphic artists to present the research in an accessible, interdisciplinary, and stylish way, which I think is good PR for a sometimes rather dry subject. Although the project teases that it has scores of samples in the pipeline, the team has chosen to feature ten standout samples ("biographies") on the website. I've illustrated the good stuff below for your perusal:

MESOLITHIC DODECANESE
https://i.imgur.com/sixJcFN.png

NEOLITHIC MACEDONIA
https://i.imgur.com/XmrRb8Q.png

ARCHAIC MACEDONIA
https://i.imgur.com/pDU6LuJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/D39XWab.png

https://i.imgur.com/1yfInAS.png

ARCHAIC PELOPONNESUS
https://i.imgur.com/dAwNS5l.png

https://i.imgur.com/u9hR2xj.png

ARCHAIC THRACE
https://i.imgur.com/0KdGUNj.png

HELLENISTIC MACEDONIA
https://i.imgur.com/60l2vT1.png

LATE MEDIEVAL EPIRUS
https://i.imgur.com/79fym8t.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's all well and good, but what about the genetic affinity for each of these samples? Well, that information is not openly divulged, though the website does give an overly simplified graphic of what a selection of the samples are like when modelled with the "Big Three" European components (WHG, ANF, and Yamnaya):

https://i.imgur.com/EZMi9km.png

Naturally this is almost useless for Greeks since they are not like other Europeans and never have been (with a few possible exceptions at the proto[-historical] margins). Ancient, medieval, and modern Balkan and Aegean Greeks have West Asian ancestry the vast majority of other Euros don't have. That CHG/Iran Neo and Levant Neo has to go somewhere, so the Big Three model is just going to end up distributing it to ANF or steppe, I guess. The only thing informative we can glean from this graphic is that the Dodecanese Mesolithic sample likely resembled Anatolian HGs (like Pinarbasi) and not WHGs. This is what we expected anyway, so it's cool to see it confirmed. Also, the late Byzantine Epirote from Doliani clearly has more steppe than the other samples, which isn't surprising since a long-since Slavic-mixed mainland profile is what we'd expect for that place and time. The Archaic Greeks from Archontiko, Tenea, and Abdera pretty much look the same as far as basic components go.

But I'd be lying if I said there isn't anything more to get excited about. There actually is something besides that dilettante graphic that can help us. In the aforementioned video (https://youtu.be/31cb-uAqZXk?t=755), there's a West Eurasian PCA visible on Angelos Souleles' computer with some of these new Greek samples projected onto it! Good googly moogly, what fuckin' luck, eh?!

https://i.imgur.com/iH47yNG.png

Great Caesar's ghost, you can even make out what the hell everything says! Here's my madcap attempt to make sense of what's going on:

https://i.imgur.com/weYyLLD.png

First, a word of caution: this PCA could also suffer from projection bias, so take it with a healthy grain of salt. We'll have to see how the genomes actually behave when we get our hands on them!

Some of the labels are clearly references to samples featured in the biographies above while others seem to be from non-featured sites/individuals. A few of the featured bios are seemingly not on this PCA either; if they are they're given cryptic names. Paliambeli Roditis is clearly there, clustering with the Neolithic Greeks as she should. I'm not sure if SNV is Vatses but it seems possible. A Mesolithic Pinarbasi-like sample would probably project in a similar way. Don't know what St5 or Sar1 are; presumably Neolithic Greece samples.

If the Archontiko samples are there, they're not obviously marked. Check out this link for amazing imagery of Archontiko material finds:
https://www.petersommer.com/blog/archaeology-history/archontiko-macedonia

This particular WE PCA has been around for years and isn't always the easiest one to make fine distinctions with, but the big takeaway here is obvious: most of these samples cluster amongst or just under the Sicilians/Maltese cluster, which is the space Mycenaeans and Emporiotes would inhabit on a simplistic PCA like this. No surprise to see all those Xs in that space. I don't know what Kas1 (maybe Kastoria?) or Zon1 are, but we do know that Tene2 is obviously the Tenea sample, so Kas1, Zon2, Aca4, and Aca5 are presumably similarly Mycenaean-like Greeks. I suspect that "Aca" might be a reference to classical-to-Hellenistic (5th-1st century BC) genomes from Akanthos ("Acanthus" in Latin), the ostensible skull sources of which were featured in this recent study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S187998172100067X) about trepanation (in which both Aidonis and Papageorgopoulou were involved, even listing it on the Biomuse website). Could be wrong about that, but it's a good lead, I think. Aca1 is displaced toward the North/Central Italian area, interestingly.

SLK1 might be reference to the Hellenistic Thessaloniki genome, and seems to plot with the Sicilians/Maltese, which makes sense for Hellenistic era. Also plotting with the East Meds is Abdera, which is VERY interesting as this girl was supposedly descended of Western Anatolians from Klazomenai who settled in Abdera (Thrace). If there were Western Anatolian Greeks in the Archaic period who clustered among modern Aegean Greeks and Southern Italians, that would be a huge development.

"Dolia" must be the Late Byzantine Epirote warrior from Doliani and naturally clusters with modern mainland Greeks. The other sample that clusters among them is AgiGeo9. I'm guessing this site might be called Agios Georgios, but there are lots of sites in Greece named that so it's not helpful. "Agr1" is the easternmost shifted sample and might be from the same site as AgiGeo9.

[kingmob]

We still know very little about what the Greeks were like in ancient times, I hope these samples come out soon!


So what I got as the gist:

1) Iron Age Greeks = Myceneans (so close to South Italians/Greek Islands/etc).

2) Hellenistic Greeks = Greek Islands (Dodecanese/Cyprus(?)).

3) Late Medieval Greeks = modern "mainland" Greeks.

Correct?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

So what I got as the gist:

1) Iron Age Greeks = Myceneans (so close to South Italians/Greek Islands/etc).

2) Hellenistic Greeks = Greek Islands (Dodecanese/Cyprus(?)).

3) Late Medieval Greeks = modern "mainland" Greeks.

Correct?

Yes, in theory that should be the case. If the PCA had been of higher resolution it would have been better though.

[kingmob]

Yes, in theory that should be the case. If the PCA had been of higher resolution it would have been better though.


Thank you very much for the confirmation.

Not very good news for the Karakachans and their 25.000 year history in the Helladic space.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Tauromachos]

Yes, we thank u for the Baklava, the Bouzouk, the Tsifteteli and the Turkish language that most of u were speaking..... Especially those from Pontus and Cappodocia, they were the best represantation of Hercules and Achilles, just on the oriental version


Pontic Greeks like the OP traditionally didn't play Bouzouki or Tsiftetelia

Their most important instruments are Lyra"Kemence" and Bagpipe"Toulum"

Their dances are Trygona,Serra,Tik and Dipat

And Baklava doesn't originate from Pontos but more probably the East Mediterranean area

[Thanos]

Ah, again someone posting this nonsense that greeks and southern italians are jews...

[Michalis Moriopoulos]

Ah, again someone posting this nonsense that greeks and southern italians are jews...

Southern Italians and Aegean Greeks (and the East Med ancestry at the core of all Balkan Greeks) are far more similar to Western Jews than to any other European profile, that's for sure.

Also, if you are Balkan or Aegean Greek, you do have Levantine ancestry, most likely from places like Antioch. Sorry if that bothers you for some stupid reason, but it's the reality. It's diluted in mainland Greeks thanks to Slavic/Arvanite admixture, but it's still there, trust me.

This has been a message from your friendly neighborhood Deep Maniot (very proud of his Anatolian and Levantine ancestry),
Michalis Moriopoulos

[Anaximander]

This is how various archaic Classical and Hellenistic Greeks looked like, based on reconstructions from bone findings, and dna analysis.
They dont look west Asian like Pontics do.

undefined
https://i.imgur.com/pWYJD0r.png
https://i.imgur.com/ZBxrmcC.png
https://i.imgur.com/UcBrYHS.png
https://i.imgur.com/S7oUnSo.png
https://i.imgur.com/PI83AtM.png
https://i.imgur.com/7sca8xD.png

To bad for people like Eupator, that even male from archaic Sparta is blonde and blue eyed.

[Anaximander]

This is how various archaic Classical and Hellenistic Greeks looked like, based on reconstructions from bone findings, and dna analysis.
They dont look west Asian like Pontics do.


To bad for people like Eupator, that even male from archaic Sparta is blonde and blue eyed.

BURY THIS . WE MUST SHOW THAT THE CLASSICAL AND HELLENISTIC PERIOD GREEKS WERE WEST ASIAN-PONTIC LIKE , SO THAT GYPSY SUPERMACISTS LIKE EUPATOR CAN PROPAGATE HIS ANCIENT GREEK PONTIAN CONTINUITY FOR HIS WEST ASIAN PEOPLE.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

This is how various archaic Classical and Hellenistic Greeks looked like, based on reconstructions from bone findings, and dna analysis.
They dont look west Asian like Pontics do.

To bad for people like Eupator, that even male from archaic Sparta is blonde and blue eyed.

The percentage of people with light-colored hair and eyes will likely have been much lower than in modern times. Modern-day Peloponnesians literally have twice as much ANE as the classical Greeks.

[Russki]

The percentage of people with light-colored hair and eyes will likely have been much lower than in modern times. Modern-day Peloponnesians literally have twice as much ANE as the classical Greeks.


He doesn't know what ANE is, I think.

[kingmob]

That leak sure caused a lot of salt.

I am waiting for the new copium of how "mainland" Greeks are the real Greeks even though all evidence points towards a late medieval profile, exactly what history and ethnography tell us for those who bother to read.

I recommend Anna Komnenian, Laonikos Chalkokondyles, and Bishop Meletios II.

[Anaximander]

That leak sure caused a lot of salt.

I am waiting for the new copium of how "mainland" Greeks are the real Greeks even though all evidence points towards a late medieval profile, exactly what history and ethnography tell us for those who bother to read.

I recommend Anna Komnenian, Laonikos Chalkokondyles, and Bishop Meletios II.

Greek Islanders diverged from the rest of Greeks in medieval times. The divergence effect was a result of Moorish and Caracen raids and settlement into the Islands. There are arabic toponyms today on the Islands like Saracenico, and other Arab related names. The mainland Greeks deschend from classical and early hellenistic Greeks.

[kingmob]

That leak sure caused a lot of salt.

I am waiting for the new copium of how "mainland" Greeks are the real Greeks even though all evidence points towards a late medieval profile, exactly what history and ethnography tell us for those who bother to read.

I recommend Anna Komnenian, Laonikos Chalkokondyles, and Bishop Meletios II.

[Roy]

That leak sure caused a lot of salt.

I am waiting for the new copium of how "mainland" Greeks are the real Greeks even though all evidence points towards a late medieval profile, exactly what history and ethnography tell us for those who bother to read.

I recommend Anna Komnenian, Laonikos Chalkokondyles, and Bishop Meletios II.

The fact that they have changed though does not undermine their clear descendency from Ancient Greeks though obviously?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The fact that they have changed though does not undermine their clear descendency from Ancient Greeks though obviously?

Obviously not. In my opinion an ordinary Greek has much more true ancient Greek ancestry than, say, an Italian like me, although I may be slightly closer to the Mycenaean average.

[kingmob]

The fact that they have changed though does not undermine their clear descendency from Ancient Greeks though obviously?


Would you mind demonstrating how is it clear?

History tells us of a medieval entry for their groups and now genetics come to confirm.

[Anaximander]

Would you mind demonstrating how is it clear?

History tells us of a medieval entry for their groups and now genetics come to confirm.

What does genetics say about pontic genome? Is it Greek or west Asian?
omg, i cannot beleive i debate with a self pro-claimed ''Colchian''

[kingmob]

What does genetics say about pontic genome? Is it Greek or west Asian?
omg, i cannot beleive i debate with a self pro-claimed ''Colchian''


The qpAdm runs I posted in your other thread show that Empuries + Armenia_LBA mix exists within the realm of possibility.

However, whether this is actually true or not, it's not proven, only uniparentals can prove such a connection in a definite manner.

But, like I told you before, Pontics being the only speakers of ancient/Hellenistic Ionic today is a very good argument that the link exists, we are talking about a live language that survived 2k+ years in divergence.

Can you please demonstrate which "mainlander" groups (the 2K Tsakonians or so being the exception) can boast such a link? No, you can't, because modern Greek is actually a very recent variation of Vulgar Greco-Roman, aka the Common for Byzantine/Ottoman Greeks.

[kingmob]

omg, i cannot beleive i debate with a self pro-claimed ''Colchian''


Colchians are pure bad-ass, they were the Romans' worst nightmare before they were conquered (Mithridates Eupator VI) and managed to remain unique and untamed even after their Byzantine Christianisation.

The reason Greece has borders today that include Macedonia and Thrace is because of their untamed and unbroken fighting spirit.

[Renekton]

The reason Greece has borders today that include Macedonia and Thrace is simple:Winston Churchil(UK) and Harry Truman(USA).

Simple as that

[Vasilisk]

At the end of the day 60%+ of our ancestry is ancient Greek like while you cluster with Armenians and lazs

[Vasilisk]

Macedonians were Greek to the bone while you are a Bulgarian with existential crisis

[kingmob]

Macedonians were Greek to the bone while you are a Bulgarian with existential crisis


I don't claim ancient Greek ancestry until I see all the results on the table, if you've seen my posts about Pontics you can see that I am trying to cover all possible angles with their modelling. I have also been open about Vrach/Vlach ancestry and how historical accords mention them being settlers from Moldova. Finally, I've also posted about how my R1b clade has its upstream found in Persian IA HajjiFirruz-Teppe.

You, on the other hand, are just another Vlacho-Arvanite transplant (nothing wrong with that, btw) claiming to be the direct descendant of Leonidas and the 300, rofl.

If you, OWD clowns, are so confident about your ancient Greekness, you wouldn't be so cryptic about your

a) ancestral villages (in specifics, not vague areas like "Achaea" or "Lagkadas" that have history of multi-lingual villages in their midst),
b) DNA results,
c) Y-DNA clades (Morley is just fine).

Until you come up with the above, you are just another salty OWD clownshoes flipping out.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Vasilisk]

The comment about bulgarians was not directed towards you and I never claimed that I'm a pure ancient Greek I'm not going to answer again its a waste of time

[wvwvw]

Colchians are pure bad-ass, they were the Romans' worst nightmare before they were conquered (Mithridates Eupator VI) and managed to remain unique and untamed even after their Byzantine Christianisation.

The reason Greece has borders today that include Macedonia and Thrace is because of their untamed and unbroken fighting spirit.

Pontians are not Colchians. They are predominantly Greek and Phrygian like they always were.

The Colchians were dark skinned with curly hair and were the only circumcised people from that area which was an observable fact to Herodotus.

[kingmob]

Pontians are not Colchians. They are predominantly Greek and Phrygian like they always were.

The Colchians were dark skinned with curly hair and were the only circumcised people from that area which was an observable fact to Herodotus.


Pontics are not pure Colchians, because by the time Trapezus was colonized they were already an Ionic-Carian mix. So the ancient Pontics (predating the Hellenistic Macedonian expansion) were probably at least a three way mix of all them.

The intermixing of the Ionics with the Colchian locals (proto-Kartvelians, possibly the native Tzans?) is more probable than not, taking into account the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, of Jason taking Medea as a wife, and Herodotus' accord that Ionic colonizers took local wives (ie the Carian brides).

As to how Colchians looked like prior to the arrival of the colonists, I guess we won't know until someone digs up and sequences a relevant sample. So we have take Herodotus' word, however, if we consider the modern Laz as the most "pure" version of the locals of Eastern Pontus, they don't really look neither curly nor dark.

[kingmob]

Pontians are not Colchians. They are predominantly Greek and Phrygian like they always were.




The link with the Kartvelians is unshakable in the ethnography and the material culture.

One very vivid example is the pre-Christian ritual practice of having the meal in the cemetery, in order to honor and keep company to the dead.


Georgians:


https://youtu.be/g6-4PulgF_Y


Pontic Greeks:

https://cdn.cnngreece.gr/media/news/2018/04/15/125922/photos/full/4431700.jpg

https://cdn.cnngreece.gr/media/news/2018/04/15/125922/photos/full/4431693.jpg

[wvwvw]

Pontics are not pure Colchians, because by the time Trapezus was colonized they were already an Ionic-Carian mix. So the ancient Pontics (predating the Hellenistic Macedonian expansion) were probably at least a three way mix of all them.

The intermixing of the Ionics with the Colchian locals (proto-Kartvelians, possibly the native Tzans?) is more probable than not, taking into account the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, of Jason taking Medea as a wife, and Herodotus' accord that Ionic colonizers took local wives (ie the Carian brides).

As to how Colchians looked like prior to the arrival of the colonists, I guess we won't know until someone digs up and sequences a relevant sample. So we have take Herodotus' word, however, if we consider the modern Laz as the most "pure" version of the locals of Eastern Pontus, they don't really look neither curly nor dark.

The Ionian migration occurred because the Dorians drove out the Achaeans who drove out the Ionians. Ten years earlier Tiglath Pileser I had wiped out the Carians in Asia Minor therefore it was not very difficult for the Ionians to take over since they faced no resistance.

Btw Lycia, Lydia, Caria was Greek lands populated by Minoan Greeks even before Minoan Greeks.

Milawanda which was Millitus which was a Greek city in Asia-Minor next to Caria in the Greek province of Lycia which is known to the Hittites as Lukka and was said by them to be a land of the Achaeans/Ahhiyawa. The Italian tribe of Lucannia were descended by Achean Lycians.

The Hittites recognised the Achaeans as equals and called their leader by the title Great King. All of the tribes of the Asia-Minor region of Greece were recognised by the Hittites as equals including the Trojans. Hittite records exist of Achaean Greek armies ruling the coast of Asia-Minor as well as Lycian Greeks.

Miletus was founded in 1400 BC by Sarpedon the brother of king Minos I when he was forced out of Crete because of a dispute over who was the guardian of the boy Miletus of whom the city was named after.

The reason you find mixed material culture is because Sarpedon when he arrived in the region of Milyas the anaince name of the country he formed an allinced with Celix the king of Celixia the brother of Cadmus and Phoenix and helped him drive out the original Lycians (who called themselves Anactorians) in exchange for a share in the land hence weapons of Anatolian origin next to Mycenaean ones and Cretan type Thaolos-graves. 200 years after Sarpedon, Lycus then settled the area in 1250 BC with 
Athenians.

Earlier Lydia was under the rule of Argive king and Hyksos king Apis or Sarapis who ruled the entire coast of Asia Minor and Egypt as Pharaoh Awoserre Apepi,) from about 1625 to 1605 BC and before him the entire world was ruled by Zeus the Cretan king Saasitepi (Zeus-Jupi[ter]) who was also the Egyptian Pharaoh Sheshi.

[Kosteece]

We still know very little about what the Greeks were like in ancient times, I hope these samples come out soon!

One needs 20+ samples from each region to get any decent conclusion.
I can't really see how epirotic genome has been diluted to a great degree. About the southern Greek genome I don't give a f#ck, Central Macedonians are significantly balkanized, and the modern Greeks of Eastern Macedonia and Thrace are Thracians originally. Western Macedonians cluster with Epirotes, as far as I have examined.
And Arvanites are albanized Northern Epirotes. Not a single modern pure Arvanite clusters with Central or Northern Albos.

[Joachim]

Bump.
Northern Mainland Greeks are thraco-slavs ,i have run many models on them,even many other people on reddit found out the same.
They are like 30% slavic,30% thracian,5% Celtic,10% Armenian+Samaritan,25% original mycenenan+alalkah_mlba greek.
Greeks from thessaly are just albanians under the hood and they have 40% logkas_mba(alabnian Ancestry).
Also,what's the difference between northern mainland Greeks and bulgarians?
Bulgarians are 40% slavic while north Greeks are 30% slavic,bulgarians are 30% thracian while Greeks have that much Ancestry too.
Only difference is langauge and identity.
There's a reason they are so close on gedmatch Distances and also on PCA


If any greek comes out at insult with me,it will have no effect,it will just show how insecure you are.
My work is sceintific and unbiased,if u have a problem,take that to g25 and eurogenes and qpAdm,not to me.

Also,Greeks from izimir are not native anatolians but mainland imports who were settled there by byzantines
And they have thraco-slavic Ancestry too which explains why they look so white.
This also explains why western Turks Look white because they are mainland settlers+25-30% turkic Ancestry.

Ancient Greeks dont exist today in pure form,i thought those memes Were wrong and just a joke but after running calculators and models i have found its the truth.
And ,no,the dodecanese aren't pure Greeks either, although they have more ancient greek Ancestry than mainlanders,they have thravo-slavic Ancestry at 10-15%(mainland Greeks are 50-60% thraco slavic).
Also,they have other non greek components too

Although,i think that there are isolated parts among islands which are still pure.


If any greek wants "official studies" there was a recent study which found that mainland Greeks are 30% mordvin/slavic and Aegean islanders are 7-20%.
This Ancestry was brought by mainland greek settlers to islanders

Also,to end "muh dorians brought more steppe north Ancestry" , lazaridis and Reich have Dorian samples and lazaridis said on twitter that dorians were identical to mycenenans and didn't differ from the empuries sample.


Btw,ancient greece was never that good.
Dorians,acheans,aeolians did nothing much except for war and all good things we know the ancient Greeks for was done by the ionians who were hellenized anatolians and lydians basically,the Ionian migration was a myth cooked up in 5th century bce and in roman period to unite the Greeks against the Persians.
All what we see as aspects of "greek Civilization" like ilad,Odyssey, literature,science, philosophy,art, architecture was done by ionians who were native anatolians/lydians who were just hellenized due to cultural contact,there's a reason they were considered fake by real Greeks.
Also,ionians mentioned that they were heavily influenced by Mesopotamians,egyptians and pheonicans and that Ionian students studied under physics under Egyptian scribes and teacher.

So,take those nationalist glassess off for a second

Europeans just appropriated Ionian excellence and called it "greek Civilization".

Anatolians really were gods on earth considering that they produced ionians and etruscans,the foundation for western civilization,and rome was just a knockoff of etruscans and ionians.
It seems that there was are a reason so many genetic samples of Roman senators and patricians match so closely with Anatolians.


Anatolians-producing hittites, lydians,minoans,luwians,ionians, etruscans since 3000 bce.
Europe was defined and marked in Asia minor(Anatolia),this is ironic.

Its a shame they are gone in their pure original form.

Modern Turks are 50% anatolian+30%(armenian+Georgian+irano-kurd)+20% turkic.
Western Turks are 30% thraco slav,30% mycenean and original greek,30% turkic.

[Joachim]

Also,forgot to add, pelopennese Greeks aren't any purer,they are like 40% mycenenan+alalakh _mlba greek+40% thraco-slav,20% armeno-samaritan.

Armenians were settled by byzantine emperors to greece and Anatolia because of depopulation by arab raids in Anatolia.
There's a reason heraclius and so many byzantine emperors like Leo were armenian.


Also,let's not talk about epirus Greeks,they are just albanians with 20-30% original greek Ancestry.

I am not talking out of thin air, I have results, PCA plots, gedmatch distances to prove my point.

And this refutes the BS by Harvard about "the Greeks do have near mythical origin".
That study was very wrong as it took an average of all Greeks and didnt seperate them by regions.
So,the southern island Greeks who have more original Ancestry balanced out the northern thraco-slavs with 30%original Hellenic Ancestry and it made it appear that modern Greeks are pure.


Modern Greeks must thank their thracian and slavic ancestors for removing their wog status.
Keep in Mind there's a reason so many Greeks look like Tracy spiridakos.


The reason for the sad state of greece today is well evident,you know the thracian-slavic Ancestry in today's Greeks and the ionians are extinct today basically
No "greece" without ionians.
No "ionians" without anatolia.

[Joachim]

Macedonians were Greek to the bone while you are a Bulgarian with existential crisis

Macedonians weren't Greeks,just read some History,they were considered barbarians and all kinds of evil.
Their langauge was completely different and unintelligible to other greeks.
Macedonians were more related to thracian and illyrians both in culture and genetics(iron age Macedonian sample is very close to illyrians) than they were related to ionians

Even though many macedonians said they were Greeks,It was simply due to cultural influence.
Its very similar to how many Africans think they are "British".
Their ethnic origins were different

[MandM]

Damn Joachim, you just teard Greeks a new asshole :laugh2:

[kingmob]

Damn Joachim, you just teard Greeks a new asshole :laugh2:


I do all the menial work and someone else just sweeps in and steals my thunder.

Never mind, carry on.

[MandM]

I do all the menial work and someone else just sweeps in and steals my thunder.

Never mind, carry on.

You are absolutly right, credit where credit's due, am sorry

[Joachim]

I do all the menial work and someone else just sweeps in and steals my thunder.

Never mind, carry on.

I ran those models independently
We both get the credits although you discovered it first.
In a sense,i was inspired by your posts about the fakeness of mainlanders.
So,yeah you deserve the credit.

Although i added thracian,illyrian,logkas_mba to see how much Ancestry was from these.

Thessalians seem to be from logkas_mba.

I don't have the coordinates for epirus,Attican Greeks,boetians,and aeolian Greeks,or i would have run them too.
I think they wont be that different from their neighbours and would be similar to pelopennese,thessalians, Macedonian greeks

So called dorics that live in the pelopennese are not dorics,but thraco slavs with 30% mycenean and empuries Ancestry.

Even maniots who are in south couldn't escape the thraco slavic invasions and genetics.

Modern mainland Greeks are no different in non-native genetíc admixture than Turks, although greeks have more original Ancestry (30-50%) compared to Turks who have only 15-30% turkic Ancestry.

I think Greeks with more than 80% original Ancestry are on near extinction,maybe 2% of the greek population has that,and most of them would be from the isolated dodecanese islands which are next to turkey/Anatolia , ironically.

Greeks are just bound by the common religion and langauge (which is Ionian ironically).

Wake up world,the Spartans are extinct today.


This also explains why so many greeks look central european type of white.
This also explains why western turks are white passing, that's because they are settlers from mainland who were then turkfied and given a 20-30% turkic Ancestry.
And we know mainlanders are already slavo thracians which makes you white-passing

This also explains the large presence of e-v13 and r1a-Z282 in mainland,both are markers of thracians and slavs respectively.

Mainlanders also have a 5-7% Celtic Ancestry.

Someone should try running models with the sources i wrote(armenian,Samaritan,thracian,slav,logkas_mba, empuries, mycenean, alalakh _mlba) and see if it passes well with qpADM .

Byzantines really messed up the genetic landscape of greece beyond repair.

Sons of Leonidas are almost extinct today,what u see today are sons of pribislav and thracians.


I read this on reddit and wiki

"Still, we know for certain a lot of Slavs migrated into Greece and "disappeared" into the population over time.

According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s.[5]

and

In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down.[11] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes (including Vajunites) had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia.[12] As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[13]"

The study which found out slavic Ancestry in Greeks officialy.
https://preview.redd.it/pwopabgvzvl71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&71f6c3b0


Another guy who did modelling on Greeks.
"I made a 3-way model using Imperial Roman samples as a proxy for Ancient Greek+BA Anatolian ancetry BGR_IA as proxy for Thraco-Illyrian/ancient Balkanic ancestry and Ukrainian for pure Northern admixture (mostly Slavic+ minor Gothic/Scythian etc). I think Imperial_Roman+BGR_IA can be considered as Hellenistic or Roman era admixture.

Target:Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 0.9301% / 0.00930146
47.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
27.6 BGR_IA
24.6 Ukrainian

Greek_Central_Macedonia Distance: 1.0659% / 0.01065937
38.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
33.8 Ukrainian
28.2 BGR_IA Target:

Greek_Thessaly Distance: 1.4791% / 0.01479109
39.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
31.4 BGR_IA
28.8 Ukrainian "

Https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/piznr5/comment/hbtt43d/


Inb4 Greeks start throwing ad hominem and insult me and call me weird names just like turkified anatolians do by saying "anani sikir|m" when i tell them they are just turkified Anatolians with 20% oghuz Ancestry

[Joachim]

I do all the menial work and someone else just sweeps in and steals my thunder.

Never mind, carry on.

Any way to upload photos so it appears directly without it appearing as a link?
Whenever i upload it,it appears as a link

[kingmob]

Pontic Greeks should be 15%-45%*ish empuries2 ancestry (30% +-15% standard error).

This is a qpAdm model of my grandmother using the Colchian sample from Southern Arc (Turkey_Hellenistic_o2) and Empuries2:


results$weights
# A tibble: 2 × 5
target left weight se z
<chr> <chr> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl>
1 ponticgreek Spain_Hellenistic_Emporion 0.288 0.149 1.92
2 ponticgreek Turkey_Hellenistic_o2 0.712 0.149 4.77
> results$popdrop
# A tibble: 3 × 13
pat wt dof chisq p f4rank Spain_Hellenistic_Emporion
<chr> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl>
1 00 0 11 18.0 0.0817 1 0.288
2 01 1 12 61.1 0.0000000144 0 1
3 10 1 12 27.1 0.00737 0 NA


The p-value is fairly robust for such a distant model (8.17%).

[Danaan]

GUYS DO NOT FORGET TO TAKE YOUR MEDICATION.

[MandM]

There was an i belive an older artical on science.org that said Greeks to day decend from mycenaeans with just a small % of newcommer dna, and that they still today overlapp with the anciet Greeks, is it propaganda? And if so why? Or do they see somthing we dont?

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

[catgeorge]

Even ancient Greeks came from separate tribes. The Greek language was infused in North West inscriptions and archaeology proves as much.

So to pigeonhole our ancestors in a dataset is pretty retarded.

[Joachim]

GUYS DO NOT FORGET TO TAKE YOUR MEDICATION.

What's the lie here?
I can post pictures of the models i ran if u think i am lying.
U can re-run the models yourself to cross check and verify,tell ne if there's a better model for Greeks than mine which takes account of all populations that had contacts with greece(slav,thracian, illyrian, Armenian, Samaritan _jew,celt,goths)

U are not that far from your slavic Bulgarian brothers.
Bulgarians are 40% slav while northern Greeks are 30-35% and southern Greeks and pelopennese are 20-25%

Even islanders have 7-20% slavic Ancestry because of migrations from mainland greek

Also,98% of mainland "greeks" have 20-30% thracian Ancestry which just makes you slavo-thraco bulgarians with 20-40% ancient Greeks ancestry.

A typical Bulgarian genetic profile:-

1)40% thracian

2)40% slav

3)20-30% Mycenean+anatolian_greek_bronze age

This has 60-80% similarity with average mainland greek genetic profile

Stop larping as a hellene.
You are as hellene as a kemalist from Konya is.

Also,this has been proven by official studies so don't bring up strawman that the admix Calculators are fake.
I have literally posted the study in upper posts

[Joachim]

There was an i belive an older artical on science.org that said Greeks to day decend from mycenaeans with just a small % of newcommer dna, and that they still today overlapp with the anciet Greeks, is it propaganda? And if so why? Or do they see somthing we dont?

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

That was wrong since it took the average of all regional groups.
So islanders with more mycenenan Ancestry cancelled out the foreign slavo thracian component of mainland Greeks.

Even in that study the greek average plots north of mycenean so u can understand how heavy the slavo thracian input is.
Also,islanders have a small but significant Armenian component which shifted the average close to mycenenan.

Check lazaridis twitter profile,he now agrees that mainland Greeks have heavy slavic and Balkan input

They will most likely do another study but this time they will seperate everybody by regions.

[Danaan]

There was an i belive an older artical on science.org that said Greeks to day decend from mycenaeans with just a small % of newcommer dna, and that they still today overlapp with the anciet Greeks, is it propaganda? And if so why? Or do they see somthing we dont?

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals


It was simplistic.

Mycenaeans were not proto-Greek.

There was variation. As far as I can tell right now the most northern Greek related populations were Tuscan-like broadly speaking, relatively close to many northern Greeks and Albanians, but more 'western'.

[Joachim]

There was an i belive an older artical on science.org that said Greeks to day decend from mycenaeans with just a small % of newcommer dna, and that they still today overlapp with the anciet Greeks, is it propaganda? And if so why? Or do they see somthing we dont?

https://www.science.org/content/article/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

Also, this northern input can't be from dorians as some people were saying.
Reich, lazaridis and harward have gots loads of Dorian samples and they concluded that dorians were same as myceneans and that empuries sample from Spain.
He destroyed any nordicist copes about the "blue eyed blonde Dorian invaders from north"

He was also shocked and how homogeneous ancient Greeks were and how close they were to mycenean samples from 1000-1500 years ago.

This is the tweet

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1577030011487281152?s=20&t=OoXbCW-2s1cCaEdXaPpFHw

[Joachim]

Pontic Greeks should be 15%-45%*ish empuries2 ancestry (30% +-15% standard error).

This is a qpAdm model of my grandmother using the Colchian sample from Southern Arc (Turkey_Hellenistic_o2) and Empuries2:


results$weights
# A tibble: 2 × 5
target left weight se z
<chr> <chr> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl>
1 ponticgreek Spain_Hellenistic_Emporion 0.288 0.149 1.92
2 ponticgreek Turkey_Hellenistic_o2 0.712 0.149 4.77
> results$popdrop
# A tibble: 3 × 13
pat wt dof chisq p f4rank Spain_Hellenistic_Emporion
<chr> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl>
1 00 0 11 18.0 0.0817 1 0.288
2 01 1 12 61.1 0.0000000144 0 1
3 10 1 12 27.1 0.00737 0 NA


The p-value is fairly robust for such a distant model (8.17%).

Any way to upload photos so it appears directly without it appearing as a link?
Whenever i upload it,it appears as a link

Bump
I want to post photos of my models

[Ajeje Brazorf]

IA models for Trabzon Greeks


Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0136% / 0.01362402 | R2P
55.9 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%
44.1 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029__BC_653__Coverage_88.86%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0105% / 0.01050075 | R3P
44.0 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%
30.4 ARM_Beniamin:R11540__BC_391__Coverage_55.03%
25.6 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20225__BC_615__ Coverage_66.82%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00919011 | R4P
36.0 ARM_Beniamin:R11540__BC_391__Coverage_55.03%
29.0 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%
24.5 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20225__BC_615__ Coverage_66.82%
10.5 ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16546__BC_850__Coverage_15.47%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0087% / 0.00865934 | R5P
33.0 ARM_Beniamin:R11540__BC_391__Coverage_55.03%
30.4 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%
23.8 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20225__BC_615__ Coverage_66.82%
7.5 ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16546__BC_850__Coverage_15.47%
5.3 ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian_o:I13035__BC_604__Coverag e_10.91%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0081% / 0.00807890 | R6P
29.4 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%
21.4 ARM_Beniamin:R11540__BC_391__Coverage_55.03%
16.3 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20225__BC_615__ Coverage_66.82%
12.7 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I6574__BC_177__Coverage_45.48%
11.8 ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16546__BC_850__Coverage_15.47%
8.4 TUR_E_Van_Urartian:I14765__BC_800__Coverage_67.03%

IA models for Cappadocian Greeks


Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0140% / 0.01403854 | R2P
69.5 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029__BC_653__Coverage_88.86%
30.5 ARM_Sarukhan_Anc:I20438__BC_73__Coverage_78.62%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0111% / 0.01113256 | R3P
42.0 TUR_E_Van_Urartian:I19612__BC_800__Coverage_23.74%
36.3 TUR_E_Van_Urartian:I20577__BC_800__Coverage_69.71%
21.7 Scythian_MDA:scy305__BC_304__Coverage_12.57%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0071% / 0.00714612 | R4P
33.5 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
29.0 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917__BC_646__Coverage_84.21%
25.2 ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238__BC_615__Coverage_6 7.78%
12.3 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225__BC_628__Coverage_7 2.80%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0067% / 0.00671303 | R5P
34.4 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
24.1 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917__BC_646__Coverage_84.21%
22.5 ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238__BC_615__Coverage_6 7.78%
13.9 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225__BC_628__Coverage_7 2.80%
5.1 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0064% / 0.00637544 | R6P
31.9 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
21.3 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917__BC_646__Coverage_84.21%
21.0 ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238__BC_615__Coverage_6 7.78%
11.2 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225__BC_628__Coverage_7 2.80%
9.6 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029__BC_653__Coverage_88.86%
5.0 ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184__BC_664__Coverage_50.87%

IA models for Central Anatolian Greeks


Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0150% / 0.01503710 | R2P
53.6 ARM_Beniamin:R11540__BC_391__Coverage_55.03%
46.4 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20225__BC_615__ Coverage_66.82%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0099% / 0.00986782 | R3P
44.2 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20226__BC_615__ Coverage_52.48%
28.5 ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17181__BC_649__Coverage_53.28%
27.3 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0079% / 0.00791861 | R4P
31.3 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20226__BC_615__ Coverage_52.48%
24.6 ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17181__BC_649__Coverage_53.28%
22.7 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
21.4 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029__BC_653__Coverage_88.86%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0069% / 0.00693701 | R5P
24.9 ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17181__BC_649__Coverage_53.28%
22.1 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
19.2 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20226__BC_615__ Coverage_52.48%
18.2 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029__BC_653__Coverage_88.86%
15.6 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20229__BC_615__ Coverage_73.82%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0061% / 0.00612774 | R6P
21.3 MKD_Anc_o1:I10392__BC_300__Coverage_67.07%
20.6 TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917__BC_646__Coverage_84.21%
19.3 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Degirmendere_Anc:I20226__BC_615__ Coverage_52.48%
13.9 ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17181__BC_649__Coverage_53.28%
13.3 ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18161__BC_615__Coverage_5 0.32%
11.6 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186__BC_800__Coverage_74 .63%

Samples used: https://pastebin.com/raw/j3YkjDtr

[kingmob]

IA models for

My qpAdm trumps your faggot calculator, trash.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

BA model for Cappadocian Greeks


Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0145% / 0.01445796 | R2P
50.1 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200__BC_1550__Coverage_53 .10%
49.9 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205__BC_1875__Coverage_46.31%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0099% / 0.00989523 | R3P
56.5 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030__BC_1517__Coverage_63.98%
34.4 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
9.1 MNE_LBA:I13778__BC_1284__Coverage_72.08%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0069% / 0.00685040 | R4P
32.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205__BC_1875__Coverage_46.31%
30.0 TUR_E_Van_BIA_pre-Urartian:I14767__BC_1306__Coverage_70.59%
19.5 HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843__BC_1800__Coverage_34.08%
18.1 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0057% / 0.00566132 | R5P
32.8 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
29.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030__BC_1517__Coverage_63.98%
14.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200__BC_1625__Coverage_80.74%
11.5 MNE_LBA:I13778__BC_1284__Coverage_72.08%
11.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH33__BC_1689__Coverage_8.71%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0049% / 0.00489850 | R6P
33.5 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
17.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA128__BC_1600__Coverage_31.28%
15.6 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006__BC_1333__Coverage_31.39%
13.1 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205__BC_1875__Coverage_46.31%
12.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA020__BC_1445__Coverage_57.40%
7.6 HRV_Jag_MBA:JAG93__BC_1700__Coverage_67.84%

BA model for Central Anatolian Greeks


Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0136% / 0.01355995 | R2P
70.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030__BC_1517__Coverage_63.98%
29.2 ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19347__BC_1175__Coverage_77.60%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00919180 | R3P
59.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA030__BC_1517__Coverage_63.98%
28.1 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
12.1 MNE_LBA:I14500__BC_1150__Coverage_11.21%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0071% / 0.00712481 | R4P
32.5 ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18467__BC_1335__Coverage_40.63%
29.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2206__BC_1875__Coverage_28.68%
20.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA034__BC_1747__Coverage_70.08%
18.3 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709__BC_1419__Coverage_ 15.29%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0063% / 0.00626507 | R5P
31.0 ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18467__BC_1335__Coverage_40.63%
22.5 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA025__BC_1761__Coverage_59.98%
16.0 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041__BC_1300__Coverage_36.06%
15.7 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067__BC_1256__Coverage_13.2 9%
14.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200__BC_1625__Coverage_80.74%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0052% / 0.00518759 | R6P
18.7 ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18467__BC_1335__Coverage_40.63%
18.5 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
18.3 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA028__BC_1755__Coverage_73.56%
15.9 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA018__BC_1432__Coverage_58.92%
14.7 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041__BC_1300__Coverage_36.06%
13.9 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709__BC_1419__Coverage_ 15.29%

BA model for Trabzon Greeks


Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0155% / 0.01548810 | R2P
58.5 ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18164__BC_1175__Coverage_5 3.78%
41.5 TUR_CineTepecik_BA:CTG025__BC_1875__Coverage_20.89 %

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0098% / 0.00983270 | R3P
42.5 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA:KDC001__BC_1888__Coverage_6 3.85%
33.4 TUR_CineTepecik_BA:CTG025__BC_1875__Coverage_20.89 %
24.1 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067__BC_1256__Coverage_13.2 9%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0070% / 0.00703249 | R4P
40.5 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA:KDC001__BC_1888__Coverage_6 3.85%
26.7 TUR_CineTepecik_BA:CTG025__BC_1875__Coverage_20.89 %
21.7 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067__BC_1256__Coverage_13.2 9%
11.1 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4341__BC_1825__Coverage_59.4 1%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0062% / 0.00623653 | R5P
35.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA:KDC001__BC_1888__Coverage_6 3.85%
23.6 TUR_CineTepecik_BA:CTG025__BC_1875__Coverage_20.89 %
21.5 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067__BC_1256__Coverage_13.2 9%
12.6 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4341__BC_1825__Coverage_59.4 1%
7.1 ARM_Tekhut_LBA:I16554__BC_1133__Coverage_54.06%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0054% / 0.00542227 | R6P
37.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA:KDC001__BC_1888__Coverage_6 3.85%
17.7 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH067__BC_1256__Coverage_13.2 9%
17.0 TUR_CineTepecik_BA:CTG025__BC_1875__Coverage_20.89 %
14.0 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A:I4341__BC_1825__Coverage_59.4 1%
7.9 ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120__BC_1440__Coverage_39.71 %
6.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577__BC_1250__Covera ge_24.35%

Samples used: https://pastebin.com/raw/3KAhrfT6

[kingmob]

BA model


RUS_North_Caucasus for Pontics, rofl.

Look at this monkey overfitting his faggot calculator so desperately, in order to levantine-cise his results, just like how he's done with his own wretched self.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

EBA model for Cappadocian Greeks


Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0177% / 0.01770317 | R2P
84.0 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
16.0 RUS_Poltavka:I0440__BC_2770__Coverage_88.08%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0123% / 0.01234927 | R3P
63.7 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
21.2 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788__BC_2500__Coverage_59.19%
15.1 RUS_Poltavka:I0440__BC_2770__Coverage_88.08%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0091% / 0.00908760 | R4P
29.3 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1633__BC_2515__Coverage_71.88%
28.1 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
22.9 HRV_Pop_CA:POP39__BC_2676__Coverage_83.43%
19.7 Levant_Ebla_EMBA:ETM012__BC_2520__Coverage_62.22%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0078% / 0.00782126 | R5P
35.6 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1635__BC_2526__Coverage_69.55%
29.8 GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08__BC_2300__Coverage _97.98%
20.7 Levant_Ebla_EMBA:ETM012__BC_2520__Coverage_62.22%
8.1 Bell_Beaker_POL:pcw280__BC_2300__Coverage_24.74%
5.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA:I1782__BC_2213__Coverage_20.74%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0068% / 0.00684962 | R6P
26.8 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1633__BC_2515__Coverage_71.88%
22.1 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
21.0 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788__BC_2500__Coverage_59.19%
20.3 GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08__BC_2300__Coverage _97.98%
6.7 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I0806__BC_2267__Coverage_11.57%
3.1 CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2:G218M5-3N__BC_2899__Coverage_31.45%

EBA model for Central Anatolian Greeks


Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0142% / 0.01416015 | R2P
72.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART011__BC_2690__Coverage_55.95 %
27.5 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA:I19457__BC_2375__Coverage_16.49 %

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0099% / 0.00991068 | R3P
46.9 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5743__BC_2974__Coverage_5 9.73%
34.9 TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A:I14792__BC_2297__Coverage_65.32 %
18.2 RUS_Kubano-Tersk:RK1003__BC_2814__Coverage_15.91%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0073% / 0.00729742 | R4P
26.8 HRV_Pop_CA:POP39__BC_2676__Coverage_83.43%
26.6 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1633__BC_2515__Coverage_71.88%
23.9 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
22.7 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788__BC_2500__Coverage_59.19%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0060% / 0.00603151 | R5P
26.8 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1633__BC_2515__Coverage_71.88%
23.9 HRV_Pop_CA:POP39__BC_2676__Coverage_83.43%
21.5 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788__BC_2500__Coverage_59.19%
14.1 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
13.7 TUR_Med_Isparta_BA:I2683__BC_2529__Coverage_78.53%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0051% / 0.00514194 | R6P
26.5 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073__BC_2050__Coverage_54.53 %
19.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART010__BC_2675__Coverage_68.06 %
18.1 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1635__BC_2526__Coverage_69.55%
13.2 TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA:TIT021__BC_2232__Coverage_8.7 0%
12.9 RUS_Kubano-Tersk:RK1003__BC_2814__Coverage_15.91%
10.1 Levant_JOR_EBA:I1705__BC_2079__Coverage_59.86%

EBA model for Trabzon Greeks


Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0170% / 0.01701436 | R2P
51.7 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14339__BC_2459__Coverage_40.99%
48.3 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA:MA2213__BC_2625__Coverage_59.65%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0112% / 0.01120424 | R3P
54.4 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14339__BC_2459__Coverage_40.99%
30.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009__BC_2603__Coverage_87.18 %
15.1 GRC_Perachora_BA:G31__BC_2450__Coverage_19.80%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00957056 | R4P
35.1 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14339__BC_2459__Coverage_40.99%
25.9 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009__BC_2603__Coverage_87.18 %
22.5 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14340__BC_2390__Coverage_72.37%
16.5 GRC_Perachora_BA:G31__BC_2450__Coverage_19.80%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0091% / 0.00908009 | R5P
35.2 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14339__BC_2459__Coverage_40.99%
22.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009__BC_2603__Coverage_87.18 %
20.9 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14340__BC_2390__Coverage_72.37%
13.1 GRC_Perachora_BA:G31__BC_2450__Coverage_19.80%
8.3 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5744__BC_2750__Coverage_3 4.13%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0087% / 0.00872554 | R6P
29.4 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Berkaber:I14339__BC_2459__Coverage_40.99%
20.7 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA:ART009__BC_2603__Coverage_87.18 %
13.1 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kalavan:I1635__BC_2526__Coverage_69.55%
12.8 GEO_Doghlauri_KuraAraxes_BA:geo015__BC_2951__Cover age_19.53%
12.2 TUR_BlackSea_Amasya_EBA:I5740__BC_2671__Coverage_7 0.33%
11.8 GRC_Perachora_BA:G31__BC_2450__Coverage_19.80%

Samples used: https://pastebin.com/raw/jTtyxYGs

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Trabzon Greeks are not correctly modeled with just Empuries2 + Colchian. They have less CHG and more ancestry related to a Middle Eastern and Iran_N component than that hypothetical mix.

https://i.imgur.com/XzzakvP.png


Distancedifference:(AC-BC) ↑
A:Greek_Trabzon
B:28.8%Empuries2+71.2%Turkey_Hellenistic_o2
C:↴
-0.03116464 Armenian_Urfa
-0.03025931 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
-0.03011315 TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A
-0.03003366 TUR_SE_Batman_C
-0.02966387 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
-0.02956713 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A
-0.02918091 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
-0.02909338 TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA
-0.02896259 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
-0.02891783 Armenian_Aintab
-0.02891267 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMA
-0.02870047 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.02866359 Levant_Ebla_EMBA
-0.02856106 ARM_Masis_Blur_N
-0.02843434 Levant_Baqah_BA

Distancedifference:(AC-BC) ↓
A:Greek_Trabzon
B:28.8%Empuries2+71.2%Turkey_Hellenistic_o2
C:↴
0.02420189 TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_B
0.02053356 Georgian_Mtiuleti
0.02007480 RUS_Progress_En
0.02001317 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5
0.02000029 RUS_Kubano-Tersk_Late
0.01990276 CHN_Afanasievo_Gongnaisi_BA3
0.01958080 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
0.01935252 GEO_CHG
0.01906299 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
0.01897122 RUS_Catacomb
0.01879188 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.01877139 RUS_Afanasievo
0.01866584 MDA_Catacomb_MBA
0.01855259 Georgian_NorthEast
0.01854859 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara


Distancedifference:(AC-BC) ↑
A:Greek_Trabzon
B:39.4%Empuries2+60.6%Turkey_Hellenistic_o2
C:↴
-0.02544880 Armenian_Urfa
-0.02504310 TUR_SE_Batman_C
-0.02415245 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
-0.02389793 Armenian_Erzurum
-0.02384128 Kurdish_Jew
-0.02379552 TUR_SE_Mardin_PostMA
-0.02379171 Armenian_Ararat
-0.02379115 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A
-0.02347849 Turkish_Trabzon
-0.02335014 TUR_SE_Batman_Anc
-0.02327923 Armenian_Gurin
-0.02320139 TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN
-0.02301477 Assyrian
-0.02294983 Armenian_Aintab
-0.02281563 Armenian_Hemsheni

Distancedifference:(AC-BC) ↓
A:Greek_Trabzon
B:39.4%Empuries2+60.6%Turkey_Hellenistic_o2
C:↴
0.02082105 NLD_EIA_low_res
0.01969452 Scotland_IA
0.01921860 Scotland_LIA_low_res
0.01905438 England_LBA_lowEEF
0.01902911 DEU_Anselfingen_FN
0.01899138 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2
0.01896759 Bell_Beaker_NLD_low_res
0.01896416 Scotland_MIA
0.01892842 GreenlandW_VA
0.01889857 England_EastYorkshire_MIA
0.01887792 NOR_North_IA
0.01885573 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
0.01885081 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
0.01880716 England_MIA_lowEEF
0.01876232 England_LBA_highEEF

[kingmob]

Trabzon Greeks are not correctly modeled with just Empuries2 + Colchian. They have less CHG and more ancestry related to a Middle Eastern and Iran_N component than that hypothetical mix.



Look at the autist keep regurgitating his retardation.

My qpAdm shows that it's one of the possible scenarios, not that it's the absolute be-all end-all of models.

But keep posting your faggot calculator wall of texts, it seems it's your knee jerk reaction when being called out, levantino fag.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

LCA models for Cappadocian Greeks


Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0181% / 0.01807953 | R2P
54.9 ARM_Areni_C:I1407__BC_3925__Coverage_67.39%
45.1 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0128% / 0.01279027 | R3P
45.8 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001__BC_3200__Coverage_64.06%
28.8 TUR_SE_Batman_C:I14627__BC_3585__Coverage_31.04%
25.4 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:I2790__BC_3675__Coverage_81.9 4%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0096% / 0.00960706 | R4P
48.0 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001__BC_3200__Coverage_64.06%
26.0 ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_C:I14165__BC_4000__Coverage_69 .80%
14.7 Levant_ISR_C:I1177__BC_4000__Coverage_7.70%
11.3 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C:I2337__BC_3572__Coverage_44.48%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0075% / 0.00752603 | R5P
29.9 TUR_SE_Batman_C:I14627__BC_3585__Coverage_31.04%
24.3 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001__BC_3200__Coverage_64.06%
22.0 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%
15.5 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:I2790__BC_3675__Coverage_81.9 4%
8.3 RUS_Afanasievo:I5277__BC_3002__Coverage_69.66%

Target: Greek_Cappadocia
Distance: 0.0060% / 0.00599723 | R6P
24.8 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT015__BC_3575__Coverage_ 55.24%
23.0 ARM_Areni_C:I1407__BC_3925__Coverage_67.39%
21.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
11.7 Levant_ISR_C:I1181__BC_4000__Coverage_8.04%
9.6 RUS_Afanasievo:I5277__BC_3002__Coverage_69.66%
9.1 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI002__BC_3215__Coverage_6.44%

LCA models for Central Anatolian Greeks


Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0179% / 0.01789568 | R2P
58.8 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT014__BC_3568__Coverage_ 61.69%
41.2 ARM_Areni_C:I1407__BC_3925__Coverage_67.39%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0111% / 0.01109297 | R3P
44.5 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART005__BC_3700__Coverage_41.24%
30.5 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
25.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o:I1917__BC_3005__Coverage_52.28 %

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0077% / 0.00765843 | R4P
34.5 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART005__BC_3700__Coverage_41.24%
29.7 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART020__BC_3227__Coverage_27.81%
22.1 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
13.7 RUS_Afanasievo:I5277__BC_3002__Coverage_69.66%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0063% / 0.00632925 | R5P
42.5 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART005__BC_3700__Coverage_41.24%
19.7 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
19.7 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kaps:ARM002-003__BC_3213__Coverage_60.54%
11.0 RUS_Afanasievo:I5277__BC_3002__Coverage_69.66%
7.1 ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_C:I15621__BC_4000__Coverage_56 .44%

Target: Greek_Central_Anatolia
Distance: 0.0053% / 0.00529256 | R6P
41.0 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART005__BC_3700__Coverage_41.24%
17.4 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
16.9 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kaps:ARM002-003__BC_3213__Coverage_60.54%
11.1 RUS_Afanasievo:I5277__BC_3002__Coverage_69.66%
8.0 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI012__BC_3268__Coverage_10.36%
5.6 HUN_Baden_LCA:I2785__BC_3225__Coverage_49.75%

LCA models for Trabzon Greeks


Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0144% / 0.01436722 | R2P
52.5 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004__BC_3200__Coverage_70.71%
47.5 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0084% / 0.00840439 | R3P
45.7 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%
34.7 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004__BC_3200__Coverage_70.71%
19.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6268__BC_3600__Coverage _31.82%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0072% / 0.00721382 | R4P
33.5 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%
32.1 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004__BC_3200__Coverage_70.71%
21.3 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6268__BC_3600__Coverage _31.82%
13.1 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT005__BC_3465__Coverage_ 44.59%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0064% / 0.00639492 | R5P
34.8 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004__BC_3200__Coverage_70.71%
27.9 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%
17.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya:I6268__BC_3600__Coverage _31.82%
12.0 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT005__BC_3465__Coverage_ 44.59%
8.1 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 0.0056% / 0.00562940 | R6P
34.7 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC:CBT010__BC_3530__Coverage_ 46.24%
19.8 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004__BC_3200__Coverage_70.71%
18.7 RUS_Maykop_Late:SIJ002__BC_3214__Coverage_62.60%
13.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC:IKI037__BC_3546__Coverage_8.88%
11.0 ARM_Kura-Araxes_Kaps:ARM001__BC_3467__Coverage_54.01%
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489__BC_3097__Coverage_56.93%

Samples used: https://pastebin.com/raw/8xsGuuiW

[Ajeje Brazorf]

My qpAdm trumps your faggot calculator, trash.


RUS_North_Caucasus for Pontics, rofl.

Look at this monkey overfitting his faggot calculator so desperately, in order to levantine-cise his results, just like how he's done with his own wretched self.


Look at the autist keep regurgitating his retardation.

My qpAdm shows that it's one of the possible scenarios, not that it's the absolute be-all end-all of models.

But keep posting your faggot calculator wall of texts, it seems it's your knee jerk reaction when being called out, levantino fag.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

C O P E
S E E T H E
D I L A T E

https://media.tenor.com/-GJjcyfTkDUAAAAC/meta-monarchy-wojak.gif

[kingmob]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

C O P E
S E E T H E
D I L A T E



About what?

That pontics are predominantly south Caucasus/NE Anatolia?

Welcome to 50 posts ago, captain faggot.

You are still a levantino fag getting btfo by qpadm runs a 10 year old can reproduce while you cling to your trash calculator and sucking expat polish cock. That goes for the rest of your mates, the 'east med/moriopolos' coven of bastards and faggots.

Your eurogenes spiel is fringe now, after southern arc you are basically trash left out to rot.

[kingmob]

https://media.tenor.com/-GJjcyfTkDUAAAAC/meta-monarchy-wojak.gif


Is that you, "we wuz levantines an samaritans an sheit"?

You will never be ancient Greek, post a shot of your Jewfro, be a chap.

[Joachim]

This is how various archaic Classical and Hellenistic Greeks looked like, based on reconstructions from bone findings, and dna analysis.
They dont look west Asian like Pontics do.

undefined
https://i.imgur.com/pWYJD0r.png
https://i.imgur.com/ZBxrmcC.png
https://i.imgur.com/UcBrYHS.png
https://i.imgur.com/S7oUnSo.png
https://i.imgur.com/PI83AtM.png
https://i.imgur.com/7sca8xD.png

To bad for people like Eupator, that even male from archaic Sparta is blonde and blue eyed.
Many west asians like circassian,Georgians,mingrelians are like 2 times whiter and have 1.5 times compared to northern shifted people like iberians who also have heavy Celtic Ancestry,also those west asians have light features Despite having less steppe and their steppe is from the swarthy steppe_emba not steppe_mlba like modern Europeans,steppe mlba was whiter because of mixing with Baltic and Scandinavian farmers.


Also,your sample size n=2? Wtf is this? Do you think 50% of Spartan population will be blonde and blue eyed based on two meme samples?


Just look at laz and pontic Greeks,they look pretty white to me despite having no corded ware Ancestry.
Circassians are literally austrian tier white despite having no European or corded ware Ancestry
So why do you think you "owned" west asians with your meme images?

[Kosteece]

Wassup, fellow Greeks?
Καλά Χριστούγεννα!

[JamesBond007]

About what?

That pontics are predominantly south Caucasus/NE Anatolia?

Welcome to 50 posts ago, captain faggot.

You are still a levantino fag getting btfo by qpadm runs a 10 year old can reproduce while you cling to your trash calculator and sucking expat polish cock. That goes for the rest of your mates, the 'east med/moriopolos' coven of bastards and faggots.

Your eurogenes spiel is fringe now, after southern arc you are basically trash left out to rot.

Jewish subhuman 'science' (David Reich) vs Polish untermensch science (Eurogenes). What would uncle Adolf do ? :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

qpadm is not in the official Debian repo so you are stupid and batshit insane for running it.

Adolf defers to Franco ADNTRO which ist not advanced or flexible enough for your needs :


https://i.postimg.cc/0yTJSFrt/master.png

https://i.postimg.cc/L8sqQLrd/greek.png

Racial Characteristics:

Degenerate, dirty, and impoverished descendants of a bunch of la-de-da fruit salads who invented democracy and then forgot how to use it while walking around dressed up like girls. Today they bugger sheep and are engaged in an international campaign to take over all the world's small, filthy grocery stores. They eat the insides out of goats with their fingers. Their toilets are mere holes in the floor And they cringe at the least threat from the imbecilic, taffy-yanking Turks next door.

Good Points:

Cute alphabet.

Proper Forms of Address:

Feda-face, sheep dip, dog fashion, GeekoEuropean, eek-a-Greek!

An Anecdote Illustrating Something of the Greek Character:

An ignorant peasant girl marries a man who's been in the Greek navy for twenty years. After their third anniversary, her mother starts to worry because the girl still isn't pregnant. "Why are you not with child, daughter?" she asks. "Does not your husband make the love to you?" "Of course:' says the girl, blushing deeply, "but ... but ... to tell the truth, Mother, I just can't keep from shitting afterwards."


https://i.postimg.cc/wBpB8NrT/shell.png

https://github.com/DReichLab/AdmixTools



Are you trusting open source blindly? Then you're in for a world of hurt!


Pulling down open source code as a dependency without ever reading the code and verifying that it doesn't contain any backdoors or other malicious content has become one of the easiest ways to introduce malicious content into a code base.

All you have to do is this:

Fix some code and create a pull request.
Fix some more code, perhaps add a new feature, and create more pull requests.
Upstream "rewards" you with commit access.
Keep a low profile for a while longer.
Make a few mistake to check how fast "mistakes" are discovered.
Create some malicious code disguised as a bug, an honest programming mistake.
Repeat.

Of course you cannot validate every single line of code in every open source projects you might use, but I cannot fathom how just about everyone today are completely and blindly trusting every package out there. This is a madness and level of ignorance and naivety in the software industry not previously seen.

In the past many honest mistakes were made, and many systems were not originally programmed with security in mind. But as the industry has progressed and matured, many efforts have been made on many different levels and fronts to improve security, yet for some reason, with the improved access to online cooperation, this has been almost completely set back to a status even worse than in the beginning.

Another different subject, yet just as relevant, is how people keep making popular third party packages "hard" dependencies for their own code base. This is a mistake that very easily can blow up your code base completely, just like this for example: https://github.com/pyca/cryptography/issues/5771

My point with this minor "rant" is that you need to carefully consider what packages you pull down. Don't just trust a project because it is open source. The idea that open source has many eyes watching is a myth. Nobody wants to read other peoples code, so very rarely does anyone do that.

Remember the Heartbleed bug?

If your code base is important, make sure (as much as possible) that you can trust the code you pull down as a dependency. Read as much of the third party code as possible, create diffs when changes are made, and investigate and understand how the project handles security. If you don't, you're only asking for trouble.



https://unixsheikh.com/articles/are-you-trusting-open-source-blindly-then-you-are-in-for-a-world-of-hurt.html

[Kosteece]

Jewish subhuman 'science' (David Reich) vs Polish untermensch science (Eurogenes). What would uncle Adolf do ? :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

qpadm is not in the official Debian repo so you are stupid and batshit insane for running it.

Adolf defers to Franco ADNTRO which ist not advanced or flexible enough for your needs :


https://i.postimg.cc/0yTJSFrt/master.png

https://i.postimg.cc/L8sqQLrd/greek.png

Racial Characteristics:

Degenerate, dirty, and impoverished descendants of a bunch of la-de-da fruit salads who invented democracy and then forgot how to use it while walking around dressed up like girls. Today they bugger sheep and are engaged in an international campaign to take over all the world's small, filthy grocery stores. They eat the insides out of goats with their fingers. Their toilets are mere holes in the floor And they cringe at the least threat from the imbecilic, taffy-yanking Turks next door.

Good Points:

Cute alphabet.

Proper Forms of Address:

Feda-face, sheep dip, dog fashion, GeekoEuropean, eek-a-Greek!

An Anecdote Illustrating Something of the Greek Character:

An ignorant peasant girl marries a man who's been in the Greek navy for twenty years. After their third anniversary, her mother starts to worry because the girl still isn't pregnant. "Why are you not with child, daughter?" she asks. "Does not your husband make the love to you?" "Of course:' says the girl, blushing deeply, "but ... but ... to tell the truth, Mother, I just can't keep from shitting afterwards."


https://i.postimg.cc/wBpB8NrT/shell.png

https://github.com/DReichLab/AdmixTools



Are you trusting open source blindly? Then you're in for a world of hurt!


Pulling down open source code as a dependency without ever reading the code and verifying that it doesn't contain any backdoors or other malicious content has become one of the easiest ways to introduce malicious content into a code base.

All you have to do is this:

Fix some code and create a pull request.
Fix some more code, perhaps add a new feature, and create more pull requests.
Upstream "rewards" you with commit access.
Keep a low profile for a while longer.
Make a few mistake to check how fast "mistakes" are discovered.
Create some malicious code disguised as a bug, an honest programming mistake.
Repeat.

Of course you cannot validate every single line of code in every open source projects you might use, but I cannot fathom how just about everyone today are completely and blindly trusting every package out there. This is a madness and level of ignorance and naivety in the software industry not previously seen.

In the past many honest mistakes were made, and many systems were not originally programmed with security in mind. But as the industry has progressed and matured, many efforts have been made on many different levels and fronts to improve security, yet for some reason, with the improved access to online cooperation, this has been almost completely set back to a status even worse than in the beginning.

Another different subject, yet just as relevant, is how people keep making popular third party packages "hard" dependencies for their own code base. This is a mistake that very easily can blow up your code base completely, just like this for example: https://github.com/pyca/cryptography/issues/5771

My point with this minor "rant" is that you need to carefully consider what packages you pull down. Don't just trust a project because it is open source. The idea that open source has many eyes watching is a myth. Nobody wants to read other peoples code, so very rarely does anyone do that.

Remember the Heartbleed bug?

If your code base is important, make sure (as much as possible) that you can trust the code you pull down as a dependency. Read as much of the third party code as possible, create diffs when changes are made, and investigate and understand how the project handles security. If you don't, you're only asking for trouble.



https://unixsheikh.com/articles/are-you-trusting-open-source-blindly-then-you-are-in-for-a-world-of-hurt.html

LMAO
The greek girl joke was funny!
I hope you are troll.
Every single comment of yours is borderline retarded or offensive.
I luv it!

[wvwvw]

How bronze age Aegeans claim genetic similarity with Myceneans and modern Greeks?

[Joachim]

Holy fuuuuu,this turned into a shi+show between brazorf and eupator.
Keep it cool guys.

[Joachim]

We still know very little about what the Greeks were like in ancient times, I hope these samples come out soon!

When will this paper come out,any ideas?

Seems interesting.

[Dimitri159]

Is that you, "we wuz levantines an samaritans an sheit"?

You will never be ancient Greek, post a shot of your Jewfro, be a chap.

You contradict yourself a lot. A last post in response to me you said that Greeks have West Asian admixture, and now you say otherwise?


On an autosomal level, Albanians are more "northern" than Greeks, because all modern Greeks have Anatolian/Iranian/Levantine admixture (big or small).

[Dimitri159]

Greek Islanders diverged from the rest of Greeks in medieval times. The divergence effect was a result of Moorish and Caracen raids and settlement into the Islands. There are arabic toponyms today on the Islands like Saracenico, and other Arab related names. The mainland Greeks deschend from classical and early hellenistic Greeks.

I beg to differ. Mycenaean Greek samples plot directly with modern Greek islanders, NOT with mainland Greeks. In fact, island Greeks have very little foreign influence compared to mainland Greeks who have some degree of south-Slavic influence:

https://i.ibb.co/GkWXWCX/K15-V4-Balkan-Samples.png

https://thednatests.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/pca-ethnicity-calculation.png

[Dimitri159]

BURY THIS . WE MUST SHOW THAT THE CLASSICAL AND HELLENISTIC PERIOD GREEKS WERE WEST ASIAN-PONTIC LIKE , SO THAT GYPSY SUPERMACISTS LIKE EUPATOR CAN PROPAGATE HIS ANCIENT GREEK PONTIAN CONTINUITY FOR HIS WEST ASIAN PEOPLE.

The first three examples could pass as lighter-skinned West Asians, especially the Neolithic girl example. And this only shows their natural skin color. Given the time period and location, I have no doubts that they were all darker than the examples show because they would tan.

[kingmob]

You contradict yourself a lot. A last post in response to me you said that Greeks have West Asian admixture, and now you say otherwise?


The West Asian part that all modern Greeks have (ranging from 100% to small bits) is almost entirely of the Iranocaucasian/Anatolian variety (going by 23ame categories) and not of the Levantine-Arab-North_African, which is what that group is pushing.

[Joachim]

....

[Etelfrido]

Anatolians really were gods on earth considering that they produced ionians and etruscans,the foundation for western civilization,and rome was just a knockoff of etruscans and ionians.
It seems that there was are a reason so many genetic samples of Roman senators and patricians match so closely with Anatolians.

Etruscan culture influenced Romans but wasn't the foundation of Roman civilization. Btw, has it even been confirmed Etruscans were Anatolian?