Where is the Middle East coming from?

[bandoge]

I did a DNA test and got 8.8% Middle East, I don't know fully my family origins but I am unaware of recent Middle Eastern origin... how do I determine if it's an ancient origin that summed up to a great part, or if I actually have a recent ancestor from that part (is chromosome painting good for it?)? Also, what would be a good calculator to determine where exactly in the middle east it could come from?

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 37.83
2 West_Med 21.98
3 Baltic 13.77
4 East_Med 13.13
5 Red_Sea 4.7
6 West_Asian 3.95
7 Northeast_African 2.4
8 Sub-Saharan 0.96
9 Amerindian 0.86
10 Oceanian 0.26
11 Siberian 0.11
12 South_Asian 0.06

-

My Heritage

EUROPA
Ibérica
56.5%
Escandinava
20.3%
Balcânica
9.6%
Judia asquenazita
3.4%
Norte europeia e europeia ocidental
0.9%
ORIENTE MÉDIO
do Oriente Médio
8.8%

[Leto]

Hi,

The text is written in Portuguese. Assuming you are from there, I'd say the East Med, Red Sea and a tiny percentage of African can be considered part of the local genepool.

[bandoge]

I am from Brazil, not Portugal. I am not fully aware of my whole origin but that's what I was wondering if it could be a normal result for Portuguese origin, or it could mean a middle eastern ancestor. I am sorry that while I was posting I had an issue and lost my text and forgot to add this when I rewritten.

I know my mom's side (1/2 Portuguese, 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Austrian), but my father's side has a lot of portuguese surnames and they look portuguese but they are in Brazil for at least 3 generations and I couldn't find much info. I am curious to do my father's test, but then you think it's likely this would be mostly portuguese results?

[Leto]

I am from Brazil, not Portugal. I am not fully aware of my whole origin but that's what I was wondering if it could be a normal result for Portuguese origin, or it could mean a middle eastern ancestor. I am sorry that while I was posting I had an issue and lost my text and forgot to add this when I rewritten.

I know my mom's side (1/2 Portuguese, 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Austrian), but my father's side has a lot of portuguese surnames and they look portuguese but they are in Brazil for at least 3 generations and I couldn't find much info. I am curious to do my father's test, but then you think it's likely this would be mostly portuguese results?
Yes, that may very well be Southern Italian, Portuguese and even more distant Sephardic Jewish from previous centuries. If you're from Brazil, then much more mixed ancestry is possible.

[Peterski]

Do you have Global25 coordinates? Also can you post your Eurogenes K36 admixture percentages?

[bandoge]

I don't have Global 25, how could I get it? My K36 is




Population
Amerindian 0.33 Pct
Arabian 1.42 Pct
Armenian 1.9 Pct
Basque 4.93 Pct
Central_African 0.42 Pct
Central_Euro 1.53 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.55 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 5.06 Pct
East_Med 1.15 Pct
Eastern_Euro 3.55 Pct
Fennoscandian 2.73 Pct
French 5.1 Pct
Iberian 20.65 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 8.65 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 6.44 Pct
North_African 2.8 Pct
North_Atlantic 12.33 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 10.96 Pct
Northeast_African 1.36 Pct
Oceanian 0.43 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.87 Pct
West_African 0.29 Pct
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 6.54 Pc

[bandoge]

Yes, that's why I am curious what would be a good calculator to dig on it, because I am unsure if it can be something different or not.

[Leto]

Your custom oracle based on K13

bandoge(Brazilian),37.83,13.77,21.98,3.95,13.13,4. 7,0.06,0,0.11,0.86,0.26,2.4,0.96

Distance to: bandoge(Brazilian)
4.66878999 Portuguese
6.15238978 Italian_Aosta_Valley
7.64013089 French_South
7.75189654 Spanish_North
7.95775094 Spanish_Central_&_South
8.05120488 Italian_North_Alpine
8.35801412 French_Central
9.44569743 Swiss_French
10.06957795 Austrian_Tyrol
11.11743226 Swiss_German

Distance to: bandoge(Brazilian)
2.07384974 81.00% French_Central + 19.00% Moroccan_North
2.19850125 19.00% Algerian + 81.00% French_Central
2.26494118 82.80% French_Central + 17.20% Moroccan
2.49951219 28.80% Austrian_Tyrol + 71.20% Portuguese
2.55087514 82.60% French_Central + 17.40% Mozabite
2.58706021 19.80% Austrian_Burgenland + 80.20% Portuguese
2.64390847 20.00% Austrian_Salzburg-Upper_Austria + 80.00% Portuguese
2.66355298 73.80% Portuguese + 26.20% Swiss_German
2.69774213 19.20% Austrian + 80.80% Portuguese
2.70095540 15.60% German_Southeast + 84.40% Portuguese

Target: bandoge(Brazilian)
Distance: 1.2445% / 1.24448276 | ADC: 0.5x RC
68.4 Portuguese
23.0 Swiss_German
5.5 Austrian_Tyrol
3.1 Beta_Israel

[Leto]

The average Brazilian on The Apricity may easily be 90% European :D

[bandoge]

Thank you. I have one question: how it would be the distance for a typical citizen? Like, an average Portuguese would score within what kind of limits?

[bandoge]

I think most people in Brazil who have this kind of interest have recent european origins. For most part of the country, this kind of thing is a bit irrelevant. I got interested in it while I was applying for a portuguese citizenship.

[bandoge]

sorry it went twice

[Leto]

I think you are fairly close to the Portuguese but somewhat more Northern European. I don't know, Southern Italian + Austrian may as well be misconstrued as Portuguese. Kinda like a North Italian/Danish person would fit in Switzerland or parts of France and Germany despite him not having direct ancestry from those places. That's the most important thing one needs to understand about the oracles.

[bandoge]

Thank you for the explanation. Looking this way, I think it makes sense with my known ancestry (Portuguese, North Italian and Austrian) and I guess the unknown parts are probably portuguese (due results and region history). What still bugs me is that people still seem to think I have a Eastern phenotype.

[omidjahan]

Thank you for the explanation. Looking this way, I think it makes sense with my known ancestry (Portuguese, North Italian and Austrian) and I guess the unknown parts are probably portuguese (due results and region history). What still bugs me is that people still seem to think I have a Eastern phenotype.

you dont look Middle east at all!
but it exist on your DNA!
you look from Greek and up and even Ukranian!

by the way:
http://www.mizanonline.ir/files/fa/news/1395/11/4/967376_341.jpg
can those two iranians pass as brazilian?

[bandoge]

I meant like South Eastern European, when I am mostly Iberian. I was kind of wondering if that amount of Middle East could be exotic for an Iberian and then give me an uncommon look that ended up looking Balkan. I don't know, and I am not good at phenotypes either.

They could, although not super typical I don't think nobody would automatically associate them as foreigners (except maybe in areas with a middle eastern community). First one reminds me of sports host Galvão Bueno.

[omidjahan]

I meant like South Eastern European, when I am mostly Iberian. I was kind of wondering if that amount of Middle East could be exotic for an Iberian and then give me an uncommon look that ended up looking Balkan. I don't know, and I am not good at phenotypes either.

They could, although not super typical I don't think nobody would automatically associate them as foreigners (except maybe in areas with a middle eastern community). First one reminds me of sports host Galvão Bueno.


Intressting!
anyway you dont look exotic for Iberian people! can easy pass as Portuges (have been in portugal many times)

[Adamm]

Maybe you had some Lebanese relatives? If I'm not mistaken Brazil has also a Lebanese diaspora?

[bandoge]

It does! I am just unaware of it, but I couldn't go far in my father's side of the family. That's why I am wondering if it's too much to be just part of the portuguese, or if I actually have some ancestor from there.

[Tutankhamun]

Olá! Seja bem-vinda. É sempre bom ter novos membros brasileiros aqui :)


De qual estado você é?

[bandoge]

Obrigada! SP e Minas!

[Roy]

This is not an unusual result for your reported ancestry.

[Latinus]

The West Asian/East Med imput, I think, comes primarily from your Italian ancestry, since they score more of these components than Iberians, and Southern Italian themselves are pred-East Med, in constrast with Northern Italians and Iberians scoring higher West Med and North Atlantic porcentages.

[bandoge]

I don't think it is, I just wanted to know if it's possible in the Portuguese or if it means that I actually have Middle Eastern origins, as I am not really sure about my father's side. If there was a way to find it out. It's the best way to test him, and I assume if he scores significantly more than that it means we do have some arab ancestry? If it's similar, than it is probably just within Portuguese/Italian?

[bandoge]

My Italian ancestry comes from the North! Venetian.

[Latinus]

My Italian ancestry comes from the North! Venetian.

They can also score East Med/West Asian:
This guy has all his 4 grandparents with origins in the province of Rovigo.

Eurogenes K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.74
2 West_Med 24.92
3 East_Med 17.9
4 Baltic 14.88
5 West_Asian 6.4
6 Red_Sea 1.2
7 Oceanian 1
8 Northeast_African 0.48
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.19
11 Sub-Saharan 0.04

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?314077-Venetian-Brazilian-GEDmatch

[bandoge]

They can also score East Med/West Asian:
This guy has all his 4 grandparents with origins in the province of Rovigo.

Eurogenes K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.74
2 West_Med 24.92
3 East_Med 17.9
4 Baltic 14.88
5 West_Asian 6.4
6 Red_Sea 1.2
7 Oceanian 1
8 Northeast_African 0.48
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.19
11 Sub-Saharan 0.04

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?314077-Venetian-Brazilian-GEDmatch

Thank you, it's interesting to compare! Should I read this kind of presence is due to ancient migrations in the regions or more like similarities/overlapping between peoples?

[Latinus]

Thank you, it's interesting to compare! Should I read this kind of presence is due to ancient migrations in the regions or more like similarities/overlapping between peoples?

I think the latter, but not sure.

[bandoge]

I think the latter, but not sure.

Ah, você é brasileiro também. :) Você sabe algum site que faça aquele mapa com os clusters genéticos? Eu esqueci o nome daquilo pra procurar.

[Rafael Passoni]

It does! I am just unaware of it, but I couldn't go far in my father's side of the family. That's why I am wondering if it's too much to be just part of the portuguese, or if I actually have some ancestor from there.
Which DNA company have you tested? Try to upload your results in MyHeritage and use their database and chromossome tools to find more information about your father's side. In addition, they have lots of genetic groups that can help you to find reliable information about your father's side. My mom also have 1/8 Catholic Orthodox Syrian (they look Euro lol) and it doesn't show in her results, I think these oracles, as said above, are misread when they calculate our ancestry. Maybe jewish relatives on Myheritage's DNA Match list or Arabian ones can bring some insight.
My father is Spanish and Italian and scores more West Asian than my mom, who has real Syrian Ancestry, though.

[bandoge]

Which DNA company have you tested? Try to upload your results in MyHeritage and use their database and chromossome tools to find more information about your father's side. In addition, they have lots of genetic groups that can help you to find reliable information about your father's side. My mom also have 1/8 Catholic Orthodox Syrian (they look Euro lol) and it doesn't show in her results, I think these oracles, as said above, are misread when they calculate our ancestry. Maybe jewish relatives on Myheritage's DNA Match list or Arabian ones can bring some insight.
My father is Spanish and Italian and scores more West Asian than my mom, who has real Syrian Ancestry, though.

I used MyHeritage, the groups they give me are Minas Gerais and Veneto as high confidence, Portugal and São Paulo as mid confidence. Açores and Brasil as low confidence. Looking at my matches, I didn't find any Arab but almost everyone is very distant, but mostly portuguese names and some Italians.

[Tongio]

I used MyHeritage, the groups they give me are Minas Gerais and Veneto as high confidence, Portugal and São Paulo as mid confidence. Açores and Brasil as low confidence. Looking at my matches, I didn't find any Arab but almost everyone is very distant, but mostly portuguese names and some Italians.

A imigração árabe(sírio-libanesa) ocorreu a partir de 1918 com a derrota do império otomano na 1° guerra mundial , relativamente recente, por isso fique tranquila se vc tivesse algo desses arabes seria em torno de 6 - 25 % no mínimo(mais os valores habituais para sul europeus), assumindo que vc tenha uns 30 anos e essa ancestralidade venha deste período entre 2 e 4 gerações atrás.
Fora que, seu pai/sua família muito provavelmente saberia dessa origem arabe caso legitima.
No seu resultado não há nada de atípico, no sudoeste europeu já se tem sangue africano e "árabe"/norte africano(MENA é um termo melhor).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

MyHeritage estimates are known to be inaccurate, I for example am 100% Southern Italian and get a cauldron of different ethnicities. I don't have Greek, Sardinian, Iberian or Serfardian ancestry. The same could be true for you, for example you are attributed a Scandinavian component that does not show up in your results on Eurogenes K13.


Griego e italiano del sur
41.4%

Cerdeña
16.7%

Ibérico
6.7%

Italiano
6.2%

Judío asquenazí
5.6%

Judío sefardí - norteafricano
14.3%

Asia occidental
9.1%

I simulated your Global25 coordinates with Genoplot from your Eurogenes K13 results, and you have typically Iberian results but with a slight shift towards northern Italy as observed in the PCA. As someone already said, your excess of Middle East or similar probably comes from your Italian side since the Italians in the PCA have a shift towards the Caucasus or West Asia anyway. The vast majority of your ancestry is Iberian, probably on your paternal side as well.


bandoge_simulated_scaled,0.1033,0.145,0.0346,0.001 4,0.0421,-0.0015,-0.0036,0.0038,0.0227,0.0276,-0.0037,0.004,-0.0071,-0.0103,0.0056,0.001,-0.0089,-0.0015,-0.0069,0.0016,0.0008,0.0003,-0.0015,0.0004,-0.0007

https://i.imgur.com/4g7njIn.png

You are also extremely close to Iberian averages


Distance to: bandoge_simulated_scaled
0.01410875 Spanish_Extremadura
0.01533625 Spanish_Galicia
0.01590234 Portuguese
0.01611369 Spanish_Andalucia
0.01777202 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.01962137 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02034094 Spanish_Alacant
0.02071695 Spanish_Murcia
0.02237876 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.02270258 Spanish_Valencia
0.02297154 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02322930 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02371613 Spanish_Menorca
0.02400306 Spanish_Cantabria
0.02414576 Spanish_Baleares
0.02450001 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02519584 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02674046 Spanish_Aragon
0.02693279 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02695602 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02697956 Spanish_Girona
0.02699407 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02737388 Spanish_Penedes
0.02787900 Spanish_Lleida
0.02864941 Spanish_Castello
0.02922579 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03061040 French_Provence
0.03096908 Spanish_Navarra
0.03140663 Spanish_Asturias
0.03149934 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03229801 Spanish_Canarias
0.03357226 Spanish_Biscay
0.03359281 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03405996 Spanish_Burgos
0.03429744 French_Auvergne
0.03604670 Italian_Veneto
0.03625316 Italian_Liguria
0.03625617 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03630736 Italian_Bergamo
0.03730278 French_Occitanie
0.03762263 Spanish_Aragon_North
0.03807290 Italian_Lombardy
0.03811130 Swiss_French
0.03883036 French_South
0.03927352 Italian_Northeast
0.03977237 French_Bigorre
0.04033049 Italian_Piedmont
0.04190727 Swiss_Italian
0.04207097 French_Bearn
0.04270775 French_Chalosse
0.04307840 French_Corsica
0.04324051 Basque_Navarre_Center
0.04404356 Spanish_Soria
0.04582791 Swiss_German
0.04591435 BelgianC
0.04673322 French_Paris
0.04712287 Italian_Tuscany
0.04721145 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.04729840 French_Alsace
0.04802963 Basque_Araba
0.04861270 French_Nord
0.04871165 Basque_French
0.04928599 Basque_Roncal
0.04978518 Basque_Lower_Navarre
0.04981029 Basque_Gipuzkoa

[reboun]

.

Every European nation has more or less some West Asian ancestry coming from both Early European Farmers and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.

[bandoge]

MyHeritage estimates are known to be inaccurate, I for example am 100% Southern Italian and get a cauldron of different ethnicities. I don't have Greek, Sardinian, Iberian or Serfardian ancestry. The same could be true for you, for example you are attributed a Scandinavian component that does not show up in your results on Eurogenes K13.


Griego e italiano del sur
41.4%

Cerdeña
16.7%

Ibérico
6.7%

Italiano
6.2%

Judío asquenazí
5.6%

Judío sefardí - norteafricano
14.3%

Asia occidental
9.1%

I simulated your Global25 coordinates with Genoplot from your Eurogenes K13 results, and you have typically Iberian results but with a slight shift towards northern Italy as observed in the PCA. As someone already said, your excess of Middle East or similar probably comes from your Italian side since the Italians in the PCA have a shift towards the Caucasus or West Asia anyway. The vast majority of your ancestry is Iberian, probably on your paternal side as well.


bandoge_simulated_scaled,0.1033,0.145,0.0346,0.001 4,0.0421,-0.0015,-0.0036,0.0038,0.0227,0.0276,-0.0037,0.004,-0.0071,-0.0103,0.0056,0.001,-0.0089,-0.0015,-0.0069,0.0016,0.0008,0.0003,-0.0015,0.0004,-0.0007

https://i.imgur.com/4g7njIn.png

You are also extremely close to Iberian averages


Distance to: bandoge_simulated_scaled
0.01410875 Spanish_Extremadura
0.01533625 Spanish_Galicia
0.01590234 Portuguese
0.01611369 Spanish_Andalucia
0.01777202 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.01962137 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02034094 Spanish_Alacant
0.02071695 Spanish_Murcia
0.02237876 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.02270258 Spanish_Valencia
0.02297154 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02322930 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02371613 Spanish_Menorca
0.02400306 Spanish_Cantabria
0.02414576 Spanish_Baleares
0.02450001 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02519584 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02674046 Spanish_Aragon
0.02693279 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02695602 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02697956 Spanish_Girona
0.02699407 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02737388 Spanish_Penedes
0.02787900 Spanish_Lleida
0.02864941 Spanish_Castello
0.02922579 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03061040 French_Provence
0.03096908 Spanish_Navarra
0.03140663 Spanish_Asturias
0.03149934 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03229801 Spanish_Canarias
0.03357226 Spanish_Biscay
0.03359281 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03405996 Spanish_Burgos
0.03429744 French_Auvergne
0.03604670 Italian_Veneto
0.03625316 Italian_Liguria
0.03625617 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03630736 Italian_Bergamo
0.03730278 French_Occitanie
0.03762263 Spanish_Aragon_North
0.03807290 Italian_Lombardy
0.03811130 Swiss_French
0.03883036 French_South
0.03927352 Italian_Northeast
0.03977237 French_Bigorre
0.04033049 Italian_Piedmont
0.04190727 Swiss_Italian
0.04207097 French_Bearn
0.04270775 French_Chalosse
0.04307840 French_Corsica
0.04324051 Basque_Navarre_Center
0.04404356 Spanish_Soria
0.04582791 Swiss_German
0.04591435 BelgianC
0.04673322 French_Paris
0.04712287 Italian_Tuscany
0.04721145 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.04729840 French_Alsace
0.04802963 Basque_Araba
0.04861270 French_Nord
0.04871165 Basque_French
0.04928599 Basque_Roncal
0.04978518 Basque_Lower_Navarre
0.04981029 Basque_Gipuzkoa

I assumed the Scandinavian wasn't real because almost every result I've seen on Youtube has some of it or Northwest European, and knowing my family history that would be unlikely so I didn't even thought much about it. It's interesting to know where this is coming from, and how close I am to Iberians :) I like it. Thank you for the PCA plotting, a well!

[bandoge]

Every European nation has more or less some West Asian ancestry coming from both Early European Farmers and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.

Is there any place they gather like average european nationalities scores on Eurogenes? Or any calculators? I mean, there is always the possibility to look for people who post it, but I was wondering if there is any resource where someone compiled something like that.

[reboun]

Is there any place they gather like average european nationalities scores on Eurogenes? Or any calculators? I mean, there is always the possibility to look for people who post it, but I was wondering if there is any resource where someone compiled something like that.

I would suggest you Dodecad K12b and Eurogenes K13. What avergae European is not calculated yet but I guess avwrage European would score Czech-like or maybe Slovak-like.

[Petalpusher]

Is there any place they gather like average european nationalities scores on Eurogenes? Or any calculators? I mean, there is always the possibility to look for people who post it, but I was wondering if there is any resource where someone compiled something like that.

On Gedmatch, you can see the average clicking the spreadsheet button. You ll see that most Europeans score some East med, just different levels, yours looks to be normal for your ancestry. West Asian too, everybody score at least a couple of percent, some of it came with the Bronze Age.