How many Turks/Balkan Turks are genetically related to Mainland Greeks or South/Central Italians?

[XT93]

This question kinda baffles me, because I have ancestors that came from Balkan but also from Anatolia (Mainly the deep western part of Canakkale) If we're talking pre WW1.
I expected to cluster with Balkan Turks or Anatolian western Turks first which I do, however the closest ones after that whether It's G25, K13 or K12b are always Greeks and Italians instead of slavs. Also, G25 results kinda differs from k13 and k12b by quite a lot.
This kinda feels weird to me because most Balkan Turks if I understood correctly stem from Slavic Balkaners and not mainland Greeks? Correct me if I'm wrong?
Another question is how many Turks carry Balkan ancestry if we assume that they have to be atleast 1/2 Balkan Rümeli or Balkan in general? Most figures I've red here say about 5-10% of all Turks, quite a small minority.

Attached my results below, G25, K13, K12b in order.

https://i.gyazo.com/11390daa159ea43877e4600970ce5b80.png
https://i.gyazo.com/afb438932e289e2f79cb93de5c6cc424.png
https://i.gyazo.com/0adff3b7dc0c2ab87d7e57933e074c0f.png

[Gebachs]

It must be the southern pull of your native Anatolian part what makes you closer to southern Italians and Greeks, since Balkan Slavs are northern than them.

As to how many Turks carry Balkan ancestry is hard to tell, but I bet it is much lower than the academic figures. These types of historic mass migrations and their impact in the native population are often overstated. Also keep in mind that these Balkan Turks were probably mixed with the original Anatolian Turks settlers in the Balkans, and further mixing in Turkey greatly diluted them.

[XT93]

It must be the southern pull of your native Anatolian part what makes you closer to southern Italians and Greeks, since Balkan Slavs are northern than them.

As to how many Turks carry Balkan ancestry is hard to tell, but I bet it is much lower than the academic figures. These types of historic mass migrations and their impact in the native population are often overstated. Also keep in mind that these Balkan Turks were probably mixed with the original Anatolian Turks settlers in the Balkans, and further mixing in Turkey greatly diluted them.

From my understanding, academic figures pretty much just go by migration numbers, and we know that many Turks from Balkans were Anatolians themselves, but given only "Balkan Muslims" the numbers seem to be around 5-10% if we go by max half Balkan Turk and not just 1/4 and less, correct me if i'm wrong. Thrace itself seems to be pure Balkan Muslims descendants with some Turkic mix. Turkey itself had inland migration by really massive numbers itself after the 70s to the west, so I don't think there's a easy way to tell.

I'm unsure about the anatolian mix, but It could make sense, because mainland Greeks are quite slavic as well.

[Thracian]

Hard to say.

Either you have an actual Greek ancestry from Canakkale or your partial Anatolian ancestry gives you a Greekish result. For example, a half Ukrainian and a half Greek would score Serbian. That doesn't mean he is an actual Serbian.

I can not reach vahaduo calculators, somehow. That's why I can post my K12b and 23andMe map if you want to compare our results. I am 4/4 Balkan Turk btw.

Here is my 23andMe map,

https://i.ibb.co/DYSfLkX/heddlla.png

And k12b,

Distance to: Thracian
5.19355370 Turk_Trakya
5.35478291 Turk_Makedonya
6.23806861 Bulgarian_Thrace
7.01863947 Turk_Deliorman
7.06984441 Greek_Peloponnese
7.22932915 Greek_Thrace
7.34482811 Greek_Thessaly
7.75196104 Greek_Thessaloniki
8.43898098 Greek_Central
8.55969626 Moldovan_Gagauz
8.95978236 Albanian
9.24864314 Albanian_Kosovo
9.28322681 Bulgarian_East
9.37370791 Greek_Athens
9.55108894 Macedonian_South
9.82964394 Greek_Macedonia
9.87205652 Macedonian_Vardar
9.94405853 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
10.09352763 Greek_Lemnos
10.17165178 Italian_Apulia
10.41139280 Italian_Lazio
10.56878423 Greek_Foca
10.91892852 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje;
10.95653686 Macedonian_Polog
10.97658417 Pomak_Greece

Target: Thracian
Distance: 1.3304% / 1.33042406 | ADC: 0.25x RC
62.2 Greek_Thrace
27.2 Turk_Trakya
5.4 Tajik_Panjshir&Kapisa;
3.6 Balochi
0.8 Cambodian
0.8 Meena

[Leto]

I can not reach vahaduo calculators, somehow.

It's been fucking closed without any notice.

[XT93]

Hard to say.

Either you have an actual Greek ancestry from Canakkale or your partial Anatolian ancestry gives you a Greekish result. For example, a half Ukrainian and a half Greek would score Serbian. That doesn't mean he is an actual Serbian.

I can not reach vahaduo calculators, somehow. That's why I can post my K12b and 23andMe map if you want to compare our results. I am 4/4 Balkan Turk btw.

Here is my 23andMe map,

https://i.ibb.co/DYSfLkX/heddlla.png

And k12b,

Distance to: Thracian
5.19355370 Turk_Trakya
5.35478291 Turk_Makedonya
6.23806861 Bulgarian_Thrace
7.01863947 Turk_Deliorman
7.06984441 Greek_Peloponnese
7.22932915 Greek_Thrace
7.34482811 Greek_Thessaly
7.75196104 Greek_Thessaloniki
8.43898098 Greek_Central
8.55969626 Moldovan_Gagauz
8.95978236 Albanian
9.24864314 Albanian_Kosovo
9.28322681 Bulgarian_East
9.37370791 Greek_Athens
9.55108894 Macedonian_South
9.82964394 Greek_Macedonia
9.87205652 Macedonian_Vardar
9.94405853 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
10.09352763 Greek_Lemnos
10.17165178 Italian_Apulia
10.41139280 Italian_Lazio
10.56878423 Greek_Foca
10.91892852 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje;
10.95653686 Macedonian_Polog
10.97658417 Pomak_Greece

Target: Thracian
Distance: 1.3304% / 1.33042406 | ADC: 0.25x RC
62.2 Greek_Thrace
27.2 Turk_Trakya
5.4 Tajik_Panjshir&Kapisa;
3.6 Balochi
0.8 Cambodian
0.8 Meena

Interesting, are you from Thrace? I have no idea as all my relatives spoke Turkish and identified as Turkish, I only know half of my ancestry traces back to Balkan if we go back to Pre Balkan wars (Thessaloniki + Kardzhali), but it's also dubious because my Thessaloniki ancestry just comes from the fact that my Grand Grandfather moved there from Bursa for the military academy during Ottoman times .
I don't really know how much Balkan Turk I really am, I'd guess atleast 1/2, perhaps more, or there's something mainland Greek in there.

I know that If I use the average k12b regional samples from Turkish DNA Project where apparantly they only use samples from people who had ancestors who were born and lived in the same place for three generations, I match the Turkish Thrace and Istanbulite Turks the closest. This kinda makes sense for me, since my Fathers lineage after Balkan wars is Istanbulite while my mothers is between Tekirdag and Bursa. Modern day Istanbul obviously is hard to categorize due to all migration

[chrisbab]

Hard to say.

Either you have an actual Greek ancestry from Canakkale or your partial Anatolian ancestry gives you a Greekish result. For example, a half Ukrainian and a half Greek would score Serbian. That doesn't mean he is an actual Serbian.

I can not reach vahaduo calculators, somehow. That's why I can post my K12b and 23andMe map if you want to compare our results. I am 4/4 Balkan Turk btw.

Here is my 23andMe map,

https://i.ibb.co/DYSfLkX/heddlla.png

And k12b,

Distance to: Thracian
5.19355370 Turk_Trakya
5.35478291 Turk_Makedonya
6.23806861 Bulgarian_Thrace
7.01863947 Turk_Deliorman
7.06984441 Greek_Peloponnese
7.22932915 Greek_Thrace
7.34482811 Greek_Thessaly
7.75196104 Greek_Thessaloniki
8.43898098 Greek_Central
8.55969626 Moldovan_Gagauz
8.95978236 Albanian
9.24864314 Albanian_Kosovo
9.28322681 Bulgarian_East
9.37370791 Greek_Athens
9.55108894 Macedonian_South
9.82964394 Greek_Macedonia
9.87205652 Macedonian_Vardar
9.94405853 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
10.09352763 Greek_Lemnos
10.17165178 Italian_Apulia
10.41139280 Italian_Lazio
10.56878423 Greek_Foca
10.91892852 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje;
10.95653686 Macedonian_Polog
10.97658417 Pomak_Greece

Target: Thracian
Distance: 1.3304% / 1.33042406 | ADC: 0.25x RC
62.2 Greek_Thrace
27.2 Turk_Trakya
5.4 Tajik_Panjshir&Kapisa;
3.6 Balochi
0.8 Cambodian
0.8 Meena

I found a link on reddit to reach the calculators btw.

[lockdownboredom]

It's been fucking closed without any notice.

what did you say to the guy to piss him off?



Hi, it is Vahaduo. We like Gedmatch and G25 calculators. Add your sheet and enjoy the power of admixture, components and ethnic estmation. We don't want to restrict you giving predefined calculators. Be creative and look for them on Internet or create your unique set of references. No more automated click&play results. Go beyound your laziness and discover the biggest genetic adventure in your life. Be smart! Be curious! Be the Vahaduo!

[kingmob]

OP, I have Balkan Turkish (Dagli) 3th-4th cousin matches from Thrace. My father's village was originally a late medieval Vlach-Arvanite settlement but by the time of the Balkan Wars the population also had Turks and Bulgarians living there. The sharp divisions propagated by people of the anthroforums between Ottoman groups are obviously not true; especially in Macedonia and Thrace there was at least some level of intermingling between neighboring groups.

Also, I would like to point out that the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia/Thrace were largely a (heavily) Phanariote controlled group, which made them friendlies to the Ottomans, and a lot of them were public servants, traders and artisans and even Ottoman military officers. The rival population was that of the Bulgarian peasantry, the Turks were friendlies and even protectors in some cases, remember we are talking about a population under the complete control of the Phanariote establishment. This obviously changed abruptly with the fall of the Empire and the rise of the Young Turk state, but up until then there was bound to be gene-flow between Greeks and Turks as a direct result of the aforementioned economic, social and political reality of the area.

[Leto]

what did you say to the guy to piss him off?
Me? I didn't say anything to anyone. I don't even know the person behind Vahaduo. It's probably those fucksticks from Anthrogenica who want to destroy Lukasz.

[gixajo]

I have a Balkan Turk average made with individuals self-considered Balkan Turks.

I don´t know if we can take this type of average very accurate, but here is it if anyone want to check it:


Balkan_Turk,0.1111673,0.1032457,0.0062853,-0.0111973,0.002872,-0.007158,0.0034467,0.0024617,-0.005386,0.002855,0.0003247,0.0001,0.0014867,-0.0008717,-0.0094553,0.0120657,0.0161677,0.0012667,0.0041063, 0.0046690,-0.0066547,0.001855,0.0002877,0.0035343,-0.0005987

[gixajo]

I can not reach vahaduo calculators, somehow. That's why I can post my K12b and 23andMe map if you want to compare our results. I am 4/4 Balkan Turk btw.



Ajeje posted yesterday and alternative link to vahaduo.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308225755/https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

[XT93]

OP, I have Balkan Turkish (Dagli) 3th-4th cousin matches from Thrace. My father's village was originally a late medieval Vlach-Arvanite settlement but by the time of the Balkan Wars the population also had Turks and Bulgarians living there. The sharp divisions propagated by people of the anthroforums between Ottoman groups are obviously not true; especially in Macedonia and Thrace there was at least some level of intermingling between neighboring groups.

Also, I would like to point out that the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia/Thrace were largely a (heavily) Phanariote controlled group, which made them friendlies to the Ottomans, and a lot of them were public servants, traders and artisans and even Ottoman military officers. The rival population was that of the Bulgarian peasantry, the Turks were friendlies and even protectors in some cases, remember we are talking about a population under the complete control of the Phanariote establishment. This obviously changed abruptly with the fall of the Empire and the rise of the Young Turk state, but up until then there was bound to be gene-flow between Greeks and Turks as a direct result of the aforementioned economic, social and political reality of the area.

I think this is a given due to history. My grand grandfather that I mentioned that moved from Bursa to Thessaloniki to study at the Selanik Military Academy, fought in the 1897 Greco-Turkish war among the majority Albanian army as part of the Officer core, as well as Balkan war and WW1 on multiple fronts including Canakkale, he ended up getting Pasha title in the near end.
I don't know his wife, but she came from Thessaloniki. I don't have access to the Turkish ancestry register and I don't know if it goes so many generations back, I only know him due to family relatives knowing from whom our unique "surname" came from, since only relatives of our family carries it and that he can be found at the Ottoman military register archives.

My grandfather from my mothers side meanwhile stems from Kardzhali, I don't know much of his legacy as he died before I got to ask him any questions about these matters, all I know from what my mother says was that his father who was Turkish in Kardzhali had children from multiple women, sorta harem like and he owned some castle in Kardzhali and was some sort of elite. His mother is believed to be potentially Italian or in general non-Turkish as she was stereotyped as one. 23andme actually ended up giving me 6% Italian and some other stuff like broadly south european/broadly european, which could be where it's from. (23andme results below)

Anyway, that's all I know about my connection to Balkan, the rest of my relatives were from Turkey (Marmara region).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/568070437351981057/920810133011988540/2dfaa94d9b87351a76b1ae8c06499065.png

[kingmob]

I think this is a given due to history.


What's your haplogroup?

[XT93]

What's your haplogroup?

Suprisingly my paternal is J-CTS5368, a subclade of J-M267. If I upload to cladefinder it says J-Z1884, seems to be haplogroup of ancient anatolians from some googling, although there's also some people claiming it's arabic.
My Maternal is H1.

Edit: yfull.com confirms It's anatolian, pic below. But, I think Z-1884 doesn't say much since it's too ancient and too widespread, I think one has to do deeper y-dna analysis or something since it has subclades that are found all over Europe and Middle-east.

https://i.gyazo.com/cf92d8d657671d870e06e6b47505817d.png

[Sebbo]

It's been fucking closed without any notice.

Do you know who by or why?

[Sebbo]

Ajeje posted yesterday and alternative link to vahaduo.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308225755/https://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

Unfortunately this one does not seem to have the spreadsheet "Smaller Regions" !

[lockdownboredom]

Me? I didn't say anything to anyone. I don't even know the person behind Vahaduo. It's probably those fucksticks from Anthrogenica who want to destroy Lukasz.

Thought Lukasz was the mastermind behind Vahaduo. The old URL redirects to his site.

https://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

[Thracian]

Interesting, are you from Thrace? I have no idea as all my relatives spoke Turkish and identified as Turkish, I only know half of my ancestry traces back to Balkan if we go back to Pre Balkan wars (Thessaloniki + Kardzhali), but it's also dubious because my Thessaloniki ancestry just comes from the fact that my Grand Grandfather moved there from Bursa for the military academy during Ottoman times .
I don't really know how much Balkan Turk I really am, I'd guess atleast 1/2, perhaps more, or there's something mainland Greek in there.

I know that If I use the average k12b regional samples from Turkish DNA Project where apparantly they only use samples from people who had ancestors who were born and lived in the same place for three generations, I match the Turkish Thrace and Istanbulite Turks the closest. This kinda makes sense for me, since my Fathers lineage after Balkan wars is Istanbulite while my mothers is between Tekirdag and Bursa. Modern day Istanbul obviously is hard to categorize due to all migration

1/2 Kardzhali (BGR), 1/4 Veliko Tarnovo (BGR) and 1/4 Gevgelija (N. Macedonia). My grandparents moved to Eastern Thrace.

Well, Half Balkan and half Anatolian Turks usually get Crimean Tatars. So, as you said, most likely you are half Balkan Turk.

Thessaloniki could be anywhere. It was an oblast. My mother's maternal side were claiming they are from Thessaloniki before the government published pedigree. But it turned Gevgelija/ N.Macedonia. Do you have Greek matches?

[XT93]

1/2 Kardzhali (BGR), 1/4 Veliko Tarnovo (BGR) and 1/4 Gevgelija (N. Macedonia). My grandparents moved to Eastern Thrace.

Well, Half Balkan and half Anatolian Turks usually get Crimean Tatars. So, as you said, most likely you are half Balkan Turk.

Thessaloniki could be anywhere. It was an oblast. My mother's maternal side were claiming they are from Thessaloniki before the government published pedigree. But it turned Gevgelija/ N.Macedonia. Do you have Greek matches?

On 23andme I only have Giresun and Sivas as regional matches, which doesn't make much sense to me. Half Balkan Turk makes sense I guess. My Grandfather was born in Thessaloniki, but his father moved there from Bursa due to the military academy, that's why I find it weird I'm half Balkan Turk since I don't think he had Balkan roots, but I guess i'll never find out until I get access to the Turkish registry. IllustrativeDNA tells me 24.4% Greek (Peloponnese Elis) and 33.6% Turkish (Rumeli)