Classify Oberkassel man and woman

[hlandian]

People say they are Cromagnid but tbh they look like they are Dinarid or something..

113522

[Oliver109]

People say they are Cromagnid but tbh they look like they are Dinarid or something..

113522

They look CM, no different to modern day people from that region

[hlandian]

They look CM, no different to modern day people from that region

They look Dinarid unless Dinarid is CM as well. If not why isn’t Dinarid considered reduced Cromagnid cause to me they look almost the same with the only differences being that Dinarid has a flatter occipit and a longer nose which could be due to mountain adaptation. All Dinarid types in the world are usually in mountain environments; Basques, Balkans, Kelto-Nordids in Scottish highlands.

Also there seems to be a tendency of Cromagnids evolving into Dinarid types even in the Mesolithics like for example Cheddar Man and the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer woman, both have a narrower chin area like Dinarids.

https://i.ibb.co/BTHy9zf/18-CA6287-BA45-40-CF-80-D7-B5-A0-CEF0-BADB.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5Yb0Vn0/43-B32-C61-1-F64-48-B7-AF62-DD6-B379-AE33-E.jpg

[Übermensch]

Maximum cranial length (from glabella): 194mm
Maximum cranial breadth (biparietal): 141mm
Bizygomatic breadth: 152mm
Upper facial height: 72mm
Minimum frontal breadth: 98mm
Basion-bregma height: 137mm
Nasal height: 51mm
Nasal breadth: 25mm
Orbital breadth: 47mm
Orbital height: 30mm

Ths is the metric data of Oberkassel.
Skull is dolicocephalic and curvoccipital, the byzigomatic breadht is extreme (even just bone with texture it would be insanelly huge),the eye sockets are low and rectangularoid with prominent browridge.
The chin is prominent and the jaw is extremly broad (dinarids have receding chin and narrow jaws).
Nose is narrow,straight and lepthorrine but not hooked (like dinarid).
So both morphologically and metrically Oberkassel is fully CM.

[hlandian]

Maximum cranial length (from glabella): 194mm
Maximum cranial breadth (biparietal): 141mm
Bizygomatic breadth: 152mm
Upper facial height: 72mm
Minimum frontal breadth: 98mm
Basion-bregma height: 137mm
Nasal height: 51mm
Nasal breadth: 25mm
Orbital breadth: 47mm
Orbital height: 30mm

Ths is the metric data of Oberkassel.
Skull is dolicocephalic and curvoccipital, the byzigomatic breadht is extreme (even just bone with texture it would be insanelly huge),the eye sockets are low and rectangularoid with prominent browridge.
The chin is prominent and the jaw is extremly broad (dinarids have receding chin and narrow jaws).
Nose is narrow,straight and lepthorrine but not hooked (like dinarid).
So both morphologically and metrically Oberkassel is fully CM.so how would you classify Cheddarman and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer woman? Both of whom have a narrower chin and look less robust?

https://i.ibb.co/BTHy9zf/18-CA6287-B...-CEF0-BADB.jpg



https://i.ibb.co/5Yb0Vn0/43-B32-C61-...379-AE33-E.jpg

[Africanwidow]

so how would you classify Cheddarman and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer woman? Both of whom have a narrower chin and look less robust?

https://i.ibb.co/BTHy9zf/18-CA6287-B...-CEF0-BADB.jpg



https://i.ibb.co/5Yb0Vn0/43-B32-C61-...379-AE33-E.jpg

How do Chedderman and Mortala look remotely Dinarid? It is mainly a Neolithic type. They are CM to the core and don't exist in such pure form anymore.

[Rædwald]

Those skulls look like every other Cro-mag skull that I've seen.

[Übermensch]

They look Dinarid unless Dinarid is CM as well. If not why isn’t Dinarid considered reduced Cromagnid cause to me they look almost the same with the only differences being that Dinarid has a flatter occipit and a longer nose which could be due to mountain adaptation. All Dinarid types in the world are usually in mountain environments; Basques, Balkans, Kelto-Nordids in Scottish highlands.

Also there seems to be a tendency of Cromagnids evolving into Dinarid types even in the Mesolithics like for example Cheddar Man and the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer woman, both have a narrower chin area like Dinarids.

https://i.ibb.co/BTHy9zf/18-CA6287-BA45-40-CF-80-D7-B5-A0-CEF0-BADB.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5Yb0Vn0/43-B32-C61-1-F64-48-B7-AF62-DD6-B379-AE33-E.jpg

There is a distinction between lamboid flattening and occipital flattening.
CM and also neanderthals have extremly long skull but lamboid flattening which give the head a ''compact look'', on the other hand dinaric and armenoid have very small head lenght and the occiput is compressed, their cranial valut are also high so the skull looks ''tall'' and short.
Dinaric type is broad headed altought not extremly so.
The nose is exttremly long and narrow and hooked, the jaw narrow and delicate and the chin often receding.

[hlandian]

How do Chedderman and Mortala look remotely Dinarid? It is mainly a Neolithic type. They are CM to the core and don't exist in such pure form anymore.

Not saying they are Dinarid but that they don’t really look proper Cromagnid either because they simply don’t, and it can be seen in their chin area, it is small.

[Africanwidow]

Not saying they are Dinarid but that they don’t really look proper Cromagnid either because they simply don’t, and it can be seen in their chin area, it is small.

You have a bigger chin than that male reconstruction?

[hlandian]

You have a bigger chin than that male reconstruction?

Oberkassel has a protruding chin but it is pretty small looking from the front; it is not broad (https://www.archaeologie-online.de/fileadmin/img/news-archiv/mensch-von-oberkassel-lvr-1.jpg). Nor is Cheddar Mans chin broad from the front (https://i.ibb.co/nrVtwVx/A97-CF2-F4-60-CB-4260-98-F8-F191-BCF4-EEA8.jpg) or Motala womans (https://humanismkunskap.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Barumkvinna_ansikte.jpg). All of them have quite small chins if you look at them from the front, it is when you look at them from the side that they look big because they are protruding.

I genuinely wonder if Cro Magnon phenotype came to be due to inbreeding. Homo Erectus/Sapiens had receding chins but straight foreheads like Africans and Neanderthals had both receding chins and foreheads so Homo Sapiens mixing with Neanderthals can’t produce a protruding chin, if anything it’ll cause it to recede even more (like it did to the forehead). We know that inbreeding causes that very protruding chin and jaw in people therefore a Homo Sapien/Neanthertal hybrid who originally had receding chins could have gradually produced that strong jaw and chin by inbreeding forming the Cro Magnon.

You can’t lie Oberkassel does have resemblance to someone who is inbred https://i.ibb.co/fndp32f/B253-D2-CD-11-A7-45-E8-8-C44-21670-AB9231-E.jpg

Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer who still has a receding chin area: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c3a43196e114c138c12e8a22f0e08bcc-lq

Here are some two supposed Dinarid men compared with ‘Cro Magnon’ Hunter gatherers: https://i.ibb.co/kSVKGXL/1-B1-D649-D-EB98-4-F3-F-AEA5-02-C1-CD382-A1-F.jpg . They do have resemblances to each other albeit they are obviously reduced and altered by other factors.

[Roy]

Cro-Magnoids and fully white looking most likely.

[rothaer]

Oberkassel are these two (14kybp):

https://i.imgur.com/34nPGLU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bcJlvFa.jpg

Tbh they seem quite "normal" to me. Which is somewhat surprising...