Modern WHG Phenotype?

[Yakh]

So, I've came across this Sardinian guy. Who happened to look like this:
https://i.imgur.com/j1jpTCB.jpg

He carries the traits of what West Hunter Gatherers supposedly have. That is light eyes, relatively dark skin and Cro-Magnon features.
Though he is atypical just look at the guy behind him(the standard Neolithic phenotype):

https://i.imgur.com/olh8Ong.jpg
Now, you could argue he looks like this due to SSA ancestry. But, as far as I know Sardinia is isolated and I don't know where the SSA could possibly be from. So, I highly doubt that.

Here is him at a different angle:
https://i.imgur.com/4GnBch4.jpg

[de Burgh II]

100% accurate.

WHG (La Brana reconstruction)

https://i.imgur.com/rYJGyU5.jpeg

https://im.kommersant.ru/Issues.photo/CORP/2014/09/18/KMO_111307_08348_1_t218_144834.jpg


If only this was a biological woman version with this rare, stunning phenotype.... fun times will be had to make this phenotype reemerge... ;D

[Uranous]

False, the Sardinians are, on the contrary, the Europeans with the lowest Whg intake rates in Europe

The Baltics and the Scandinavians and generally the countries having known strong proto-Germanic migrations have the highest rates of WHG genetics

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5



Sardinians and generally southern Europeans have high rates of input from Neolithic farmers


https://image.noelshack.com/minis/2022/18/1/1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.png (https://www.noelshack.com/2022-18-1-1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.jpg)

Anson Mount looks la brana men

[gixajo]

Sardinians usually are considered genetically the closest European modern population to European Early Farmers, and "purest" types use to be aprox. 95% EEF+5% WHG so somewhat strange to take a Sardinian individual as example of "Modern WHG phenotype", but...who knows, maybe WHGs looked like him.

[gixajo]

The Baltics and the Scandinavians and generally the countries having known strong proto-Germanic migrations have the highest rates of WHG genetics



And Basques...

[Russki]

(...)


Scandinavians have lower WHG than Ukrainians.

[Uranous]

Scandinavians have lower WHG than Ukrainians.


https://es-metapedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Hombre_de_Cro-Magnon?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp


From the study by Broca, Quatrefages, Hamy and Lartet of the remains of the Cro-Magnon cave (three adult males, one female and one foetus) a description was derived that included high height as prominent features - one of the males was 1 .80 m and the tallest measured more than 1.95 m— and large cranial capacity (1590 cc). In addition, the elongated skull (dolichocephalic), the high forehead and the vault higher than the Neanderthals, the well-marked supraorbital protuberances, but not in the shape of a torus or torus, the wide face, the narrow nose, low and rectangular orbits, and robust jaw. with a very slight prognathism (almost orthognathic) with a developed and prominent chin. The tibias are very flattened transversely (platicnemia). They were anatomically "modern" humans, physically more robust and larger than the modern European,nordic .


Haplogroup I has been found at high frequencies throughout Europe but is virtually absent elsewhere. This haplogroup has been suggested to have a pre- Last Glacial Maximum origin and has been found in ancient hunter-gatherer samples from central and northern Europe

[Immanenz]

it would be a miracle considering how much Sardinians are EEF, but he is WHG influenced and actually you find Italians who look like him easily.



https://es-metapedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Hombre_de_Cro-Magnon?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp


Haplogroup I has been found at high frequencies throughout Europe but is virtually absent elsewhere. This haplogroup has been suggested to have a pre- Last Glacial Maximum origin and has been found in ancient hunter-gatherer samples from central and northern Europe

Haplogroup I is also common in balkans, Dinarids, you know... haplogroups arent really reliable unlike autosomal DNA,

[Hektor12]

How accurate is that i dont know tho but i always think most WHG looking person is James Milner. He is also one of the most pre-historic looking people in the world, imo.

https://resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/photos/players/250x250/p15157.png
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/8b3736542f1d61f07fed49b310b7e5dfdbd58b3f/0_137_6200_3720/master/6200.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2GJCR5E/james-milner-football-player-in-liverpool-fc-at-melwood-in-liverpool-photo-peter-van-den-berg-aftonbladet-tt-code-2512-2GJCR5E.jpg
https://cdn.sportmob.com/resource/news/20210226_949806/item_2_5782.jpg?cache=1618048807&d=600_338

[Immanenz]

How accurate is that i dont know tho but i always think most WHG looking person is James Milner. He is also one of the most pre-historic looking people in the world, imo.



He is probably much closer , but Alenka will not like his tauridized eyeshape. Unfortunly he has already light skin though, so he cant be considered ultra Paleo

[Reozek]

False, the Sardinians are, on the contrary, the Europeans with the lowest Whg intake rates in Europe

The Baltics and the Scandinavians and generally the countries having known strong proto-Germanic migrations have the highest rates of WHG genetics

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5



Sardinians and generally southern Europeans have high rates of input from Neolithic farmers


https://image.noelshack.com/minis/2022/18/1/1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.png (https://www.noelshack.com/2022-18-1-1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.jpg)

Anson Mount looks la brana menFalse, mainland Italians, including those from the North, have less WHG than Sardinians and Greeks islanders too i suppose

WHG in Sardinians Is 10-15% not 5%, see Supplementary Information

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6


Sardinians have the lowest steppe ancestry, this Is true

[Hektor12]

Alenka will not like his tauridized eyeshape

I didnt exactly understand what she said but it was important, i will read it again.

[Immanenz]

I didnt exactly understand what she said but it was important, i will read it again.

dont waste your time rather.

[Tongio]

Sardinians usually are considered genetically the closest European modern population to European Early Farmers, and "purest" types use to be aprox. 95% EEF+5% WHG so somewhat strange to take a Sardinian individual as example of "Modern WHG phenotype", but...who knows, maybe WHGs looked like him.

EEf is already part WHG something like 30 - 40 % the rest being levant neolític, so EEF had already phenotypical heritage from WHG.

[Banderas]

Too gracile

[Uranous]

It is thus interesting to see that the current Iberians, and in particular the Basques, are far from the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Moreover, if we compare this result with that obtained on hunter-gatherers and Neolithic people from Sweden, it seems to be confirmed that the Neolithic people are closer to the current southern Europeans, while the hunter-gatherers are closer to the present-day northern Europeans. It's a bit as if the neolithization phase of Europe had pushed the hunter-gatherers back to northern Europe.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2012/06/29/ADN-ancien-de-chasseurs-cueilleurs-ib%C3%A9riques

[Tongio]

It is thus interesting to see that the current Iberians, and in particular the Basques, are far from the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Moreover, if we compare this result with that obtained on hunter-gatherers and Neolithic people from Sweden, it seems to be confirmed that the Neolithic people are closer to the current southern Europeans, while the hunter-gatherers are closer to the present-day northern Europeans. It's a bit as if the neolithization phase of Europe had pushed the hunter-gatherers back to northern Europe.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2012/06/29/ADN-ancien-de-chasseurs-cueilleurs-ib%C3%A9riques

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jean-Michel-Guinet/publication/259441354/figure/fig3/AS:271610733133833@1441768453301/Principal-Component-Analysis-PCA-on-all-present-day-west-Eurasians-with-ancient-samples_Q640.jpg
EVERYBODY is far from WHG, surprise! Iberians and northern europeans are almost equidistant to It, what lacks in iberia is ANE very strong in northern Europe.

[gixajo]

It is thus interesting to see that the current Iberians, and in particular the Basques, are far from the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Moreover, if we compare this result with that obtained on hunter-gatherers and Neolithic people from Sweden, it seems to be confirmed that the Neolithic people are closer to the current southern Europeans, while the hunter-gatherers are closer to the present-day northern Europeans. It's a bit as if the neolithization phase of Europe had pushed the hunter-gatherers back to northern Europe.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2012/06/29/ADN-ancien-de-chasseurs-cueilleurs-ib%C3%A9riques

It´s not the same "to be closer to X" than "to have more or less ancestry of X".*

Anyway I didn´t say that Basques is the group with highest WHG ancestry, or higher than Baltics, but that Basques have a great WHG input (according to how they are usually modelled) which place them in the high tier of European ethnic groups with WHG.

And if what Tongio has said is true (that EEF is 40% WHG) they would possibly put themselves above or at the same level of those groups
altogether.

Edit:* I mean ...always.

[Alenka]

He is probably much closer , but Alenka will not like his tauridized eyeshape. Unfortunly he has already light skin though, so he cant be considered ultra Paleo
Sorry, there's no similarity between James Milner's eyes and Zeno's. Totally different vibe.
Evidently, you're the one who doesn't like Taurid/Armenoid influenced eyes, not me.
That's why you felt the need to negate my classification of Zeno.
Just stop. There's nothing wrong with Armenoid influence.
You're being cringeworthy.
Move on already.

[Immanenz]

Sorry, there's no similarity between James Milner's eyes and Zeno's. Totally different vibe.
Evidently, you're the one who doesn't like Taurid/Armenoid influenced eyes, not me.
That's why you felt the need to negate my classification of Zeno.
Just stop. There's nothing wrong with Armenoid influence.
You're being cringeworthy.
Move on already.

I knew exactly what you meant- i just did not like the argumentation. So i will not post the tons of West Meds and Hallstatt with eye lid show. Its a known fact that more Eastern Meds are closer to Armenoids, Iranids etc.
I just made a joke because Millner was an evident case of sanpaku eyes- it just triggered me :p but i stop now.

Back to the topic, it also show that genetic distance must be considered and admixture (ANE, EEF etc.) can change drastically the look. Although metrically Up survivors are found in Ireland/ British Isles, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, sporadically western spots of France etc., Finnland and other places randomly in Europe occasionally

[Oliver109]

I knew exactly what you meant- i just did not like the argumentation. So i will not post the tons of West Meds and Hallstatt with eye lid show. Its a known fact that more Eastern Meds are closer to Armenoids, Iranids etc.
I just made a joke because Millner was an evident case of sanpaku eyes- it just triggered me :p but i stop now.

Back to the topic, it also show that genetic distance must be considered and admixture (ANE, EEF etc.) can change drastically the look. Although metrically Up survivors are found in Ireland/ British Isles, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, sporadically western spots of France etc., Finnland and other places randomly in Europe occasionally

How do you explain the origin of light skin alleles in UP types from the Balkans? some can look very British

[Creoda]

Peak Apricity.

[Yakh]

How accurate is that i dont know tho but i always think most WHG looking person is James Milner. He is also one of the most pre-historic looking people in the world, imo.

https://resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/photos/players/250x250/p15157.png
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/8b3736542f1d61f07fed49b310b7e5dfdbd58b3f/0_137_6200_3720/master/6200.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2GJCR5E/james-milner-football-player-in-liverpool-fc-at-melwood-in-liverpool-photo-peter-van-den-berg-aftonbladet-tt-code-2512-2GJCR5E.jpg
https://cdn.sportmob.com/resource/news/20210226_949806/item_2_5782.jpg?cache=1618048807&d=600_338

I believe he's just Steppe + EEF who just looks really "hench".

[znenammi]

Immanenz.......please calm down.

[Immanenz]

How do you explain the origin of light skin alleles in UP types from the Balkans? some can look very British

I think North- Central Europeans became drastically lighter in the Neolithic- Bronze Age period and with that also the UP types (although having light eyes in the Mesolitic period 7000 bp was huge as well considering all others had brown eyes) , the majority of light types came with the Slavs and Illyrians most likely (in that area), i would suppose that until we know more. Montengrenians are supposed to have the most Borreby types, but they arent that light in comparison to Croats and Bosnians.

Lepenski Vir from 10 000 bp had still brown eyes but was already partly EHG and EEF influenced, he was massiv:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/lepenski-vir-grobgrave-69-eab95438a55d48d7b4b1a5fe362b5817

[Oliver109]

I think North- Central Europeans became drastically lighter in the Neolithic- Bronze Age period and with that also the UP types (although having light eyes in the Mesolitic period 7000 bp was huge as well considering all others had brown eyes) , the majority of light types came with the Slavs and Illyrians most likely (in that area), i would suppose that until we know more. Montengrenians are supposed to have the most Borreby types, but they arent that light in comparison to Croats and Bosnians.

Lepenski Vir from 10 000 bp had still brown eyes but was already partly EHG and EEF influenced, he was massiv:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/lepenski-vir-grobgrave-69-eab95438a55d48d7b4b1a5fe362b5817

Thanks for the info, Lepenski Vir looks quite British in this reconstruction
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/individual-from-grave-69-lepenski-vir-83b2bf9f7ff34a3e9be1c6be643ab6b5

[Tongio]

I believe he's just Steppe + EEF who just looks really "hench".

Yes WHG had much more compact faces(mainly midface), higher set cheekbones and wider zygomas(frontal perspective).
This man's robustness are mostly of the Yamnaya type (ANE+CHG).

[Roy]

False, the Sardinians are, on the contrary, the Europeans with the lowest Whg intake rates in Europe

The Baltics and the Scandinavians and generally the countries having known strong proto-Germanic migrations have the highest rates of WHG genetics

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5



Sardinians and generally southern Europeans have high rates of input from Neolithic farmers


https://image.noelshack.com/minis/2022/18/1/1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.png (https://www.noelshack.com/2022-18-1-1651511625-anson-mount-depuis-l-amc-series-tele-hell-on-wheels-soiree-d-ouverture-apres-partie-pour-la-nouvelle-production-de-groupe-russe-des-transports-tenue-a-l-etablissement-yotel-club-lounge-arrivees-la-ville-de-new-york-usa-30-01-12-d9bhax.jpg)

Anson Mount looks la brana men

Yes, but they're one of the few if not the only population with a detectable ancestry from Magdalenian Upper Paleolithic people apparently.

[Roy]

EEf is already part WHG something like 30 - 40 % the rest being levant neolític, so EEF had already phenotypical heritage from WHG.

Not 30-40%, lol. Only around 5%. But obviously if one gets further back in time to times pre-farming then they were all Hunter-Gatherers albeit obviously not the same as WHG. But by time early farmers started spreading over Europe they were very different from hunter-gatherers they stumbled across in Europe.

[Token]

He is probably much closer , but Alenka will not like his tauridized eyeshape. Unfortunly he has already light skin though, so he cant be considered ultra Paleo

This whole "brown-skinned Paleo-Europeans" meme comes from the fact that pre-Neolithic Europeans lacked the derived (mutant) allele in ONE particular SNP (out of millions that humans have) associated with skin color which is "fixed" among modern-day West Eurasians (meaning that nearly 100% of modern west Eurasians have the mutant alleles in this SNP). However, this SNP is clearly not the only one responsible for skin color among west Eurasians, or else Iranians and Scandinavians would have the same skin color since both are fixed in this SNP, and northeast Asians would not have light skin since they lack it altogether. Moreover, 10% of modern-day Orcadians lack the mutant alleles in this SNP, although they are the palest people in the world, and the lightest-skinned (and most rufous) Europeans are generally those who resemble UP Europeans.

The Cheddar man saga is an excellent example of how incredibly dumb (or biased) modern scientists can be.

Frequency of rs1426654 derived allele (A111T) based on Yale's allele frequency database. 10% of native Orcadians are brown-skinned according to the Cheddar man troupe:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Ala111Thr_allele_frequency_distribution0.png

[Token]

Lepenski Vir from 10 000 bp had still brown eyes but was already partly EHG and EEF influenced, he was massiv:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/lepenski-vir-grobgrave-69-eab95438a55d48d7b4b1a5fe362b5817
There is more bone mass in this skull than in ten Gracile Med and Nordcuck skulls summed and multiplied.

[Russki]

This whole "brown-skinned Paleo-Europeans" meme comes from the fact that pre-Neolithic Europeans lacked the derived (mutant) allele in ONE particular SNP (out of millions that humans have) associated with skin color which is "fixed" among modern-day West Eurasians (meaning that nearly 100% of modern west Eurasians have the mutant alleles in this SNP). However, this SNP is clearly not the only one responsible for skin color among west Eurasians, or else Iranians and Scandinavians would have the same skin color since both are fixed in this SNP, and northeast Asians would not have light skin since they lack it altogether. Moreover, 10% of modern-day Orcadians lack the mutant alleles in this SNP, although they are the palest people in the world, and the lightest-skinned (and most rufous) Europeans are generally those who resemble UP Europeans.

The Cheddar man saga is an excellent example of how incredibly dumb (or biased) modern scientists can be.

Frequency of rs1426654 derived allele (A111T) based on Yale's allele frequency database. 10% of native Orcadians are brown-skinned according to the Cheddar man troupe:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Ala111Thr_allele_frequency_distribution0.png



Did they study Russians from Siberia?

Lol.


https://sun9-22.userapi.com/s/v1/if2/nLi8VMmamqElMOgiYXhrosHNAdMo0jrGPcdQF_DCwJaOd3BB3a aInqlTNxTfYBHLkXfiRpEvYqA3QjljJsOL7I06.jpg?size=12 61x484&quality=95&type=album

[Tongio]

Not 30-40%, lol. Only around 5%. But obviously if one gets further back in time to times pre-farming then they were all Hunter-Gatherers albeit obviously not the same as WHG. But by time early farmers started spreading over Europe they were very different from hunter-gatherers they stumbled across in Europe.

Ok i kicked a bit to high but they were basicaly a mix of levantine farmers migrating north and mixing with anatolian hunter gatherers getting WHG-like DNA from them already in anatolia.Take a look:
https://i.imgur.com/GybaoKE.png
I'm not a specialist in g25 so if anybody can do It better i aprecite.

[Roy]

Ok i kicked a bit to high but they were basicaly a mix of levantine farmers migrating north and mixing with anatolian hunter gatherers getting WHG-like DNA from them already in anatolia.Take a look:
https://i.imgur.com/GybaoKE.png
I'm not a specialist in g25 so if anybody can do It better i aprecite.

I think the exact kind of proportions is not yet fully established by scientists or bloggers interested in the topic. Also more samples will be needed to give a fuller view.