Classify Sungir 1

[hlandian]

How would you classify the Sungir 1 man?

114055

114056

[Benyzero]

Lebron James xD

[Nurzat]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/d0/55/f4d0559df8df868dd2a21a184ad42d2b.jpg

[Albertón]

Brunn

[Oliver109]

med and CM intermediate basic caucasian

[hlandian]

med and CM intermediate basic caucasian

Why Med? Weren’t the first Paleolithic Europeans Combe-Capelle-like in phenotype? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/c7/a0/95c7a0ae303308d2a806eff1e7c16740.jpg (Cro Magnon self portrait; looks nothing like the Old Man of Cro Magnon and looks more like Combe-Capelle, Sunghir etc..). It seems to me like the Old Man of Cro Magnon was an exception and was falsely/wrongly attributed as the main phenotype of all early Paleolithic Europeans when his phenotype is rarely found in Paleolithic Europe.

And frankly the Old Man of Cro Magnon looks like a compressed version of Sunghir 1.

[Voskos]

Native Amazonian.

[Africanwidow]

Brunn/Paleo CM

[Immanenz]

He is comparable to the UP Aurignacian from Central Europe, but shows some signs of cold adaption in the nose apparently.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbYpAQB41qg9P10UnEVoYvQARWSxOmV KapgQ&usqp=CAU
https://pp.userapi.com/c841123/v841123265/2ea03/HDh-C7Q_Phc.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/M-Mednikova/publication/282705296/figure/fig2/AS:613864446107653@1523368097177/Left-lateral-views-of-the-Sunghir-1-and-5-adult-skulls-above-and-the-Sunghir-2-and-3.png

in the side profil some arhaic positing of the teeth is visible- sligth underbite perhaps. i see some similarites to Arnold Schwarzenegger and his lookalike Callum Mogger although most likely in real robuster and arhaic looking (its very likely tbh)- face seems longer, not thinking about the coloring.

[hlandian]

He is comparable to the UP Aurignacian from Central Europe, but shows some signs of cold adaption in the nose apparently.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbYpAQB41qg9P10UnEVoYvQARWSxOmV KapgQ&usqp=CAU
https://pp.userapi.com/c841123/v841123265/2ea03/HDh-C7Q_Phc.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/M-Mednikova/publication/282705296/figure/fig2/AS:613864446107653@1523368097177/Left-lateral-views-of-the-Sunghir-1-and-5-adult-skulls-above-and-the-Sunghir-2-and-3.png

in the side profil some arhaic positing of the teeth is visible- sligth underbite perhaps. i see some similarites to Arnold Schwarzenegger and his lookalike Callum Mogger although most likely in real robuster and arhaic looking (its very likely tbh)- face seems longer, not thinking about the coloring.

I agree he seems like a very cold adapted person. Do you have any examples of people who resemble the Old Man of Cro Magnon? His phenotype seems much rarer nowadays. Also what makes Combe-Capelle Med while Sunghir etc are considered CM-like? Even types such as Brunn, Borreby etc.. that are considered CM are closer to Sunghir and Combe-Capelle, aren’t they? Oberkassel too was closer to those types. I don’t see any modern phenotype that resembles the Old Man of Cro Magnon.. (https://www.prints-online.com/p/164/homo-sapiens-cranium-cro-magnon-1-8588161.jpg)

Also Sunghir reminds me of Neanderthals 114058

[Roy]

Very prognathic.

[hlandian]

Very prognathic.

I don’t think so? https://www.researchgate.net/profile/M-Mednikova/publication/282705296/figure/fig2/AS:613864446107653@1523368097177/Left-lateral-views-of-the-Sunghir-1-and-5-adult-skulls-above-and-the-Sunghir-2-and-3.png , One if the kids looks prognathic but not the adults.

[Immanenz]

I agree he seems like a very cold adapted person. Do you have any examples of people who resemble the Old Man of Cro Magnon? His phenotype seems much rarer nowadays. Also what makes Combe-Capelle Med while Sunghir etc are considered CM-like? Even types such as Brunn, Borreby etc.. that are considered CM are closer to Sunghir and Combe-Capelle, aren’t they? Oberkassel too was closer to those types. I don’t see any modern phenotype that resembles the Old Man of Cro Magnon..

What makes Combe Capelle different is the shape of the vault- it has a shape that is similar to Mediteraneans. Another similar atypical specimen would be Chancelade, who was basically seen as some kind of Eskimo found in Europe (Combe Capelle too by some authors actually, but less so).

https://greaterancestors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Combe_Capelle-skull3.jpg
https://images-cdn.bridgemanimages.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.LRI.11325640.7055475/4649132.jpg

Cro Magnon1 was freak indeed, his metrics do not exist in the exact same way- the cranial capacity is simply too high, but you ll find people who match a good amount of characterstics basically.
Here is a reconstruction done by an apricity member- just to show the breath of the face in combination with length of the head:
https://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag113/edenismstudy/cromagfix3_zpswky1oamp.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137662-Amud-s-Faces-From-The-Past/page7

The several European Hunter Gatherers were genetic distant, so its obv. they will have different characteristic (i think only "Villabruna cluster" WHG had inpact on us)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Genetic-Distances-between-European-HGs-and-Key-f4-Statistics-A-MDS-plot-of-genetic_fig3_355165152

[Tongio]

Do you guys know details on the pygmentation of the Brunn man and his kids?I couldnt find much on it.

[hlandian]

What makes Combe Capelle different is the shape of the vault- it has a shape that is similar to Mediteraneans. Another similar atypical specimen would be Chancelade, who was basically seen as some kind of Eskimo found in Europe (Combe Capelle too by some authors actually, but less so).

https://greaterancestors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Combe_Capelle-skull3.jpg
https://images-cdn.bridgemanimages.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.LRI.11325640.7055475/4649132.jpg

Cro Magnon1 was freak indeed, his metrics do not exist in the exact same way- the cranial capacity is simply too high, but you ll find people who match a good amount of characterstics basically.
Here is a reconstruction done by an apricity member- just to show the breath of the face in combination with length of the head:
https://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag113/edenismstudy/cromagfix3_zpswky1oamp.png
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137662-Amud-s-Faces-From-The-Past/page7

The several European Hunter Gatherers were genetic distant, so its obv. they will have different characteristic (i think only "Villabruna cluster" WHG had inpact on us)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Genetic-Distances-between-European-HGs-and-Key-f4-Statistics-A-MDS-plot-of-genetic_fig3_355165152
Oh I didn’t know that but is the difference in cranial vault enough to consider someone of a different race? It very well could have been an adaptation/evolution in that specific specimen? And yeah CM1 was an interesting specimen indeed. Do you have the full metric data of his skull? lol would be interesting to read.

One more question, what phenotype would Cheddar Man be considered today? I’ve seen a lot of Irish men who don’t have the same face and head shape as him but yet resemble him. I think that Cillian Murphy has something about him that quite resembles the Cheddar Man, which is not surprising.

[Oliver109]

Do you guys know details on the pygmentation of the Brunn man and his kids?I couldnt find much on it.

Probably like this
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/webimg/b25lY21zOjZkYWRjYWVkLTM4ZmItNDBiZS05YjFkLTBlYWNlZT c4OWRhOTo0NjA3ODRkZi1iMzhmLTQ0ZTQtYmE3Yi00YjAyMjVm MjY5MDQ=.jpg?crop=61:45,smart&quality=70&width=616

[hlandian]

Probably like this
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/webimg/b25lY21zOjZkYWRjYWVkLTM4ZmItNDBiZS05YjFkLTBlYWNlZT c4OWRhOTo0NjA3ODRkZi1iMzhmLTQ0ZTQtYmE3Yi00YjAyMjVm MjY5MDQ=.jpg?crop=61:45,smart&quality=70&width=616

Where does the curly hair in Brunn come from?

[Token]

I don’t see any modern phenotype that resembles the Old Man of Cro Magnon..

Some modern Europeans who closely resemble Cro-Magnon 1:

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/troeplate04.htm
A Swede from Trollhatton, southern Sweden. This man is both tall and heavy; of lateral bodily build. His head is of prodigious length, his face nearly as wide as his cranial vault; all dimensions of the face are great, especially the width of the mandible; the distance between the eyes, and the heaviness of the browridges, are likewise remarkable. This individual recapitulates, as closely probably as any other living human being, the physical type of many of the hunters who lived in western and central Europe during the Laufen Interglacial and the last advance of the ice. Note that in his case, as with most of his type, only a partial degree of blondism is present.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe041.jpg

Another Swede, in this case from Göteborg, a slightly less extreme example of the same type. Swedes of this type are habitually found in association with the sea. Both of these individuals, as well as Fig. 4, were measured and photographed in a Boston shipyard.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe042.jpg

County Cork. A man of medium stature but great body size, massive bony structure and heavy musculature; a large head, heavy brows, deep, wide mandible and projecting chin. This individual is a close Irish approximation to the Brünn race of Scandinavia. His golden hair is curly; curly hair is a local specialty of the Irish Upper Palaeolithic group. It is also, however, occasionally found among Lapps and Finns.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe091.jpg

[Immanenz]

Oh I didn’t know that but is the difference in cranial vault enough to consider someone of a different race? It very well could have been an adaptation/evolution in that specific specimen? And yeah CM1 was an interesting specimen indeed. Do you have the full metric data of his skull? lol would be interesting to read.

Well, Combe Capelle was compared and was similar in some aspects again to Central European Aurignacian group. But i think he is much younger than them (Mesolitihc period). He was like Chancelade a small man, unlike the Gravettians, at least the men were tall. Many hunter gatherers in the Mesolithic period were small though like Loshbour etc. Again, i dont think we deal with different races, but when genetic distance is big, there will be some dissimilarity- and it shows also in the morphology.

[hlandian]

Well, Combe Capelle was compared and was similar in some aspects again to Central European Aurignacian group. But i think he is much younger than them (Mesolitihc period). He was like Chancelade a small man, unlike the Gravettians, at least the men were tall. Many hunter gatherers in the Mesolithic period were small though like Loshbour etc. Again, i dont think we deal different races, but when genetic distance is big, there will be some dissimilarity- and it shows also in the morphology.
That explains it. And yeah most of the Hunter gatherers were not that tall, they averaged 166cm. Cheddar Man was of that same height. An off topic question; what would you classify this man as? He is an American actor: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/f/fa/Josh_Stewart.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190115152313

[hlandian]

Some modern Europeans who closely resemble Cro-Magnon 1:

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/troeplate04.htm
A Swede from Trollhatton, southern Sweden. This man is both tall and heavy; of lateral bodily build. His head is of prodigious length, his face nearly as wide as his cranial vault; all dimensions of the face are great, especially the width of the mandible; the distance between the eyes, and the heaviness of the browridges, are likewise remarkable. This individual recapitulates, as closely probably as any other living human being, the physical type of many of the hunters who lived in western and central Europe during the Laufen Interglacial and the last advance of the ice. Note that in his case, as with most of his type, only a partial degree of blondism is present.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe041.jpg

Another Swede, in this case from Göteborg, a slightly less extreme example of the same type. Swedes of this type are habitually found in association with the sea. Both of these individuals, as well as Fig. 4, were measured and photographed in a Boston shipyard.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe042.jpg

County Cork. A man of medium stature but great body size, massive bony structure and heavy musculature; a large head, heavy brows, deep, wide mandible and projecting chin. This individual is a close Irish approximation to the Brünn race of Scandinavia. His golden hair is curly; curly hair is a local specialty of the Irish Upper Palaeolithic group. It is also, however, occasionally found among Lapps and Finns.
https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe091.jpg
While I do agree that they look robust and CM-like they are closer to the Oberkassel type. Cro Magnon1 had a squarer head shape and a face that looked shorter.

[Token]

That explains it. And yeah most of the Hunter gatherers were not that tall, they averaged 166cm. Cheddar Man was of that same height.
The mean stature of Upper Paleolithic European men was 173cm, which was very tall before the 21th century and comparable to the tallest 20th century Europeans.

[Oliver109]

Where does the curly hair in Brunn come from?

Probably it is an old hangover from the paleolithic population, most early Caucasoid hair had a tendency to curliness and so Brunns would have preserved it, straight hair is i think relatively new.

[hlandian]

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe091.jpg[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen data that states that the average height was 166cm, most Hunter Gatherers found were of that height too. The Eastern CMs however were tall in stature.

Cheddar Man - 166 cm

Loschbour - 5’3

La Brana-1 - 5’7

Motala Man -

Le Bichon - 164 cm (5 ft 5 in)

Villabruna - ~168.2 cm

Sunghir 1 - 178 cm (ANE)

Kostenki-14 - 160 cm

Oberkassel - 165 cm

Chancelade man - 155 cm

"According to Formicola and Giannecchini (1999), the average stature of the European LUP males is about 165.6 cm (SD = 3.5). Consequently, the estimate obtained for Villabruna 1 falls within the upper part of the range of its contemporaries."

[hlandian]

Sorry for the double posts the website is acting up.

[Nurzat]

...

Romanian man - mammoth hunter?

not uncommon at all for the countryside, in both men and women, such robust heads/faces.

other than fat, there's a robust bone structure there as well.

unrelated to the OP, but didn't want to open a thread

https://scontent.fsbz1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284251722_151058160804654_6726715163111073741_n.jp g?stp=dst-webp_e15_q70_s1080x2060_tt1_u&efg=eyJ1cmxnZW4iOiJ1cmxnZW5fZnJvbV91cmwifQ&_nc_eui2=AeG_3mdpoEc7YWiRkhArkLA0QnxxCswxyURCfHEKz DHJRJICJ28VSryWUX7uhIL1iP4S6CP7pfNWMb02dZ-SrK04&_nc_cid=0&_nc_ad=z-m&_nc_ht=scontent.fsbz1-2.fna&_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=RvrM0fQBQ80AX-zmuIe&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&oh=00_AT_iIkmwqPnWWEUYTrdwO4MlmsM_GhVVfbrqm9__jYiO yQ&oe=62931E5A