Do the British look more like Albanians or Finns?

[Oliver109]

Both countries are a similar distance apart from each other, one is significantly lighter while another is significantly darker, i think that actually you might find more British passing phenotypes in Albania in the form of Cro Magnids, Alpines, lighter Meds and the occasional subnordic or nordic.
Albanians: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?198286-Albanians-from-Kosovo-Kosovar-Albanians-phenotypes

[Cristiano viejo]

Albanians.

[Oliver109]

Albanians.

Lol for once i agree with you, i would feel extremely out of place in Finland

[Roy]

I'd say Albanians.

[Tooting Carmen]

Neither really.

[JamesBond007]

Neither really.

Agreed

[Babak]

Neither

[Voskos]

I'd guess the med types would fit in North Albania better but the average, definitely Finns.

[Oliver109]

I'd guess the med types would fit in North Albania better but the average, definitely Finns.

Interesting, i think the Finns have too much Baltid influence though, possibly even more than Lithuanians etc

[Oliver109]

Here is the cabinet of Finland, only 1 or 2 look British in the strict sense
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Marinin_hallituksen_nimitys_10.12.2019_%2849199007 427%29.jpg

[Russki]

Upper class Finns

Middle and lower class Albanians


Upper class Finns are strongly Nordid influenced.

Lower class Finns are strongly Lappid influenced.

[Dinglehopper]

Agreed

You pass Albania easy with all respect.

[JamesBond007]

Here is the cabinet of Finland, only 1 or 2 look British in the strict sense
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Marinin_hallituksen_nimitys_10.12.2019_%2849199007 427%29.jpg

By British in the strict sense I suppose you think English ? What about someone who is a mixtur of Cornish, Kentish, argyll-bhute and Orkney islands ? That would be something like my admixture, BTW .
.

https://media.springernature.com/relative-r300-703_m1050/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature.2015.17136/MediaObjects/41586_2015_Article_BFnature201517136_Figa_HTML.jpg

[Oliver109]

By British in the strict sense I suppose you think English ? What about someone who is a mixtur of Cornish, Kentish, argyll-bhute and Orkney islands ? That would be something like my admixture, BTW .
.

https://media.springernature.com/relative-r300-703_m1050/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature.2015.17136/MediaObjects/41586_2015_Article_BFnature201517136_Figa_HTML.jpg

British in the strict sense for me would mean Ulster Protestants, Welsh, English, Channel Islander and Scottish so your admixture would be properly British.

[Token]

Closer to Albanian Ghegs than to Finns. Coon (British-American) lived among the Ghegs and said that an average Gheg growing up in America wouldn't stick out among regular white Americans.

From his book "The Mountains of Giants":

https://i.imgur.com/Rk3sGkb.png

https://i.imgur.com/ln48Q6x.png

[Oliver109]

Closer to Albanian Ghegs than to Finns. Coon (British-American) lived among the Ghegs and said that an average Gheg growing up in America wouldn't stick out among regular white Americans.

From his book "The Mountains of Giants":

https://i.imgur.com/Rk3sGkb.png

https://i.imgur.com/ln48Q6x.png

V interesting, Albanians along with Serbians and a few other Balkan groups look less alien to me than other eastern Euros like Moldovans and Bulgarians.

[Token]

V interesting, Albanians along with Serbians and a few other Balkan groups look less alien to me than other eastern Euros like Moldovans and Bulgarians.
Montenegrins from Old Montenegro and Gheg Albanians are probably the most "western European-passing" Balkanites.

[JamesBond007]

You pass Albania easy with all respect.

Yeah, right, Albanians are very swarthy. Here is an analysis of my DNA the bigger the circle the closer the genetic match ::

Map My Genes by Vladimir Naumov & Vadim Lagutin :


https://i.postimg.cc/k48dy3P1/Screenshot-20220527-195533-2.png

[Tooting Carmen]

Yeah, right, Albanians are very swarthy.

A lot are, but there are some lighter types that can at least superficially resemble Keltic Nordics too.

[PhenotypeMaster]

Yeah, right, Albanians are very swarthy. Here is an analysis of my DNA the bigger the circle the closer the genetic match ::



I don't think so

[Anglo-Celtic]

British in the strict sense for me would mean Ulster Protestants, Welsh, English, Channel Islander and Scottish so your admixture would be properly British.

Say what? Northern Irish "papists" aren't British, but Northern Irish Gaelic "prods" *are*?

[Oliver109]

Say what? Northern Irish "papists" aren't British, but Northern Irish Gaelic "prods" *are*?

Essentially yes, a lot of NI British are of mainly British ancestry and reflect that in their phenotypes, they also identify as British so i suppose they are a British people.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Essentially yes, a lot of NI British are of mainly British ancestry and reflect that in their phenotypes, they also identify as British so i suppose they are a British people.

They all have citizenship. I doubt that most people could tell a "papist" from a "prod", especially if they're both of Gaelic descent like many Scottish people are.

[Oliver109]

They all have citizenship. I doubt that most people could tell a "papist" from a "prod", especially if they're both of Gaelic descent like many Scottish people are.

Anthropologists Coon and Hooton said that the Prods have slightly narrower and longer heads, a lot of NI protestants also have English ancestry as well, you only have to look at photos of DUP politicians, many are indistinguishable from British mainlanders.

[Anglo-Celtic]

Anthropologists Coon and Hooton said that the Prods have slightly narrower and longer heads, a lot of NI protestants also have English ancestry as well, you only have to look at photos of DUP politicians, many are indistinguishable from British mainlanders.

Many of them are of Gaelic descent, though. Converted Irishmen don't lose their "Irishness". As you know, there's not one distinct and unique British look. Even some siblings look like they don't come from the same country.

[Oliver109]

Many of them are of Gaelic descent, though. Converted Irishmen don't lose their "Irishness". As you know, there's not one distinct and unique British look. Even some siblings look like they don't come from the same country.

Well of course that is the case but there are those Irish who do have a distinct aspect like the band Clannad for example who just do not give as a group the vibe of a group of British people. i think as a whole the Prods still look more English or Scottish than Irish even though a large minority do of course have those more Irish looks, much like the difference between the English and the French despite considerable overlap.

[Creoda]

Essentially yes, a lot of NI British are of mainly British ancestry and reflect that in their phenotypes, they also identify as British so i suppose they are a British people.
Ulster Protestants are clearly ethnically different from Ulster Catholics in K36. Closer to Eastern English than to their neighbours.

Distance to: British_Ulster
1.46887712 Scottish
1.67949397 Welsh
1.98045449 Scottish_East
2.11142132 Scottish_Southwest
2.28322141 Scottish_Orkney
2.61851103 Irish_Leinster
2.79578254 Irish
2.97496218 English_Lancashire
2.97634003 English_Southwest
2.98489531 Irish_Munster
3.09706312 Scottish_Highlands
3.21715713 English_Yorkshire
3.24400986 Irish_Connacht
3.35737993 English_Northeast
3.38675361 English
3.58920604 English_West-Midlands
3.94315863 English_Southeast
4.60041302 English_East-Midlands
4.62625118 English_East
4.79401710 Cornish
5.06322032 Irish_Ulster
5.54018953 French_Brittany
5.70449823 Dutch
6.01759919 Dutch_Central
6.96253546 Dutch_South

Target: British_Ulster
Distance: 0.8517% / 0.85172053 | R3P
42.7 Scottish
37.2 English_Lancashire
20.1 Irish_Ulster

Target: British_Ulster
Distance: 1.0208% / 1.02077037 | R2P
50.1 English_Lancashire
49.9 Irish_Munster

Distance to: British_Ulster
0.91467961 52.40% English_Lancashire + 47.60% Irish_Connacht
0.92028740 48.20% English_Lancashire + 51.80% Irish
1.02078401 50.00% English_Lancashire + 50.00% Irish_Munster
1.11679284 44.40% English + 55.60% Irish
1.12949680 48.80% English + 51.20% Irish_Connacht
1.13892774 42.80% English_West-Midlands + 57.20% Irish
1.16040263 40.20% English_Southeast + 59.80% Irish
1.17997110 47.20% English_West-Midlands + 52.80% Irish_Connacht
1.19967343 46.40% English + 53.60% Irish_Munster
1.20412925 46.80% Dutch + 53.20% Irish_Ulster
1.22526208 45.40% Dutch_Central + 54.60% Irish_Ulster
1.23449277 64.40% English_Lancashire + 35.60% Irish_Ulster
1.23452079 44.60% English_West-Midlands + 55.40% Irish_Munster
1.23737919 44.40% English_Southeast + 55.60% Irish_Connacht
1.24725523 45.80% English_Yorkshire + 54.20% Irish
1.25123816 59.40% English_West-Midlands + 40.60% Irish_Ulster
1.25691772 22.00% English_Lancashire + 78.00% Scottish
1.26312963 30.40% Dutch_South + 69.60% Irish_Connacht
1.26696772 62.40% English_Yorkshire + 37.60% Irish_Ulster
1.27302039 26.60% Dutch_South + 73.40% Irish

Immaterial anyway because JB007 is more Irish than British.

[Creoda]

They all have citizenship. I doubt that most people could tell a "papist" from a "prod", especially if they're both of Gaelic descent like many Scottish people are.
A little dare for you AC, go to a pub in a Catholic part of Belfast and tell them they're British because they have citizenship.

[Anglo-Celtic]

A little dare for you AC, go to a pub in a Catholic part of Belfast and tell them they're British because they have citizenship.

I won't, even though I doubt that they're too thick to get it. If they get frisky, they'll learn that the Irish don't have a monopoly on good boxers.

[Urbanuss]

Albanians

[Dinglehopper]

Upper class Finns

Middle and lower class Albanians


Upper class Finns are strongly Nordid influenced.

Lower class Finns are strongly Lappid influenced.

don't worry, you low class russian slav mongel garbage, don't forget

[Anglo-Celtic]

Ulster Protestants are clearly ethnically different from Ulster Catholics in K36. Closer to Eastern English than to their neighbours.

Distance to: British_Ulster
1.46887712 Scottish
1.67949397 Welsh
1.98045449 Scottish_East
2.11142132 Scottish_Southwest
2.28322141 Scottish_Orkney
2.61851103 Irish_Leinster
2.79578254 Irish
2.97496218 English_Lancashire
2.97634003 English_Southwest
2.98489531 Irish_Munster
3.09706312 Scottish_Highlands
3.21715713 English_Yorkshire
3.24400986 Irish_Connacht
3.35737993 English_Northeast
3.38675361 English
3.58920604 English_West-Midlands
3.94315863 English_Southeast
4.60041302 English_East-Midlands
4.62625118 English_East
4.79401710 Cornish
5.06322032 Irish_Ulster
5.54018953 French_Brittany
5.70449823 Dutch
6.01759919 Dutch_Central
6.96253546 Dutch_South

They somewhat are. They're closer to Briton British and *Gaelic* Scottish than they are to both.

[Übermensch]

finns.

[Mortimer]

Albanians

[Grace O'Malley]

Ulster Protestants are clearly ethnically different from Ulster Catholics in K36. Closer to Eastern English than to their neighbours.

Distance to: British_Ulster
1.46887712 Scottish
1.67949397 Welsh
1.98045449 Scottish_East
2.11142132 Scottish_Southwest
2.28322141 Scottish_Orkney
2.61851103 Irish_Leinster
2.79578254 Irish
2.97496218 English_Lancashire
2.97634003 English_Southwest
2.98489531 Irish_Munster
3.09706312 Scottish_Highlands
3.21715713 English_Yorkshire
3.24400986 Irish_Connacht
3.35737993 English_Northeast
3.38675361 English
3.58920604 English_West-Midlands
3.94315863 English_Southeast
4.60041302 English_East-Midlands
4.62625118 English_East
4.79401710 Cornish
5.06322032 Irish_Ulster
5.54018953 French_Brittany
5.70449823 Dutch
6.01759919 Dutch_Central
6.96253546 Dutch_South

Target: British_Ulster
Distance: 0.8517% / 0.85172053 | R3P
42.7 Scottish
37.2 English_Lancashire
20.1 Irish_Ulster

Target: British_Ulster
Distance: 1.0208% / 1.02077037 | R2P
50.1 English_Lancashire
49.9 Irish_Munster

Distance to: British_Ulster
0.91467961 52.40% English_Lancashire + 47.60% Irish_Connacht
0.92028740 48.20% English_Lancashire + 51.80% Irish
1.02078401 50.00% English_Lancashire + 50.00% Irish_Munster
1.11679284 44.40% English + 55.60% Irish
1.12949680 48.80% English + 51.20% Irish_Connacht
1.13892774 42.80% English_West-Midlands + 57.20% Irish
1.16040263 40.20% English_Southeast + 59.80% Irish
1.17997110 47.20% English_West-Midlands + 52.80% Irish_Connacht
1.19967343 46.40% English + 53.60% Irish_Munster
1.20412925 46.80% Dutch + 53.20% Irish_Ulster
1.22526208 45.40% Dutch_Central + 54.60% Irish_Ulster
1.23449277 64.40% English_Lancashire + 35.60% Irish_Ulster
1.23452079 44.60% English_West-Midlands + 55.40% Irish_Munster
1.23737919 44.40% English_Southeast + 55.60% Irish_Connacht
1.24725523 45.80% English_Yorkshire + 54.20% Irish
1.25123816 59.40% English_West-Midlands + 40.60% Irish_Ulster
1.25691772 22.00% English_Lancashire + 78.00% Scottish
1.26312963 30.40% Dutch_South + 69.60% Irish_Connacht
1.26696772 62.40% English_Yorkshire + 37.60% Irish_Ulster
1.27302039 26.60% Dutch_South + 73.40% Irish

Immaterial anyway because JB007 is more Irish than British.

The K36 is interesting and I think the British and Irish regions are quite good but there are some anomalies that I don't have in other calculators like the G25 and Eurogenes K13 and K15. I'm a little closer to Komi than to Albanian and Tuscany for example (that doesn't seem to make sense) I'm also closer to Crimean-Tartar than South French on the K36 and I'm closer to Hazara, Mari, Vespian and even Egyptian than Southwest Finnish. Also closer to Saami-Norway than Sardinian. There is something in that calculator that is putting some distant populations closer than a lot of European populations. I've only looked at the 25 closest populations before and not the more distant populations so never noticed that sort of thing before and never seen it in other calculations.

My top populations and then some of the more distant ones.

Distance to: Grace
6.34925980 Irish_Ulster
6.51347066 Irish_Connacht
6.59924996 Irish
6.90165922 Irish_Munster
7.14316456 Scottish_Southwest
7.30030821 Scottish_East
7.39046007 Scottish_Highlands
7.43245585 Welsh
7.46637797 Scottish_Orkney
7.60400552 Irish_Leinster
7.72165138 Scottish
8.10037653 British_Ulster
9.37665719 Cornish
9.52850985 English_Southwest
9.71395388 English_Northeast
10.08864213 English_Lancashire
10.30820062 English_Yorkshire
10.53100185 English
10.56951749 English_West-Midlands
10.62366227 German_Frisian
11.03056662 French_Brittany
11.16550491 English_East
11.19313182 English_Southeast
11.22382733 English_East-Midlands
11.61028854 Dutch_North


Distance to: Grace
31.98120229 Ukrainian_Rivne
32.18281218 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
32.35794338 Swiss_Italian
32.36213065 Ukrainian_Zhitomir
32.37746130 Ukrainian_Sumi
32.46059303 Spanish_Valencia
32.48801933 Volga_Tatar
32.51040295 Moldova_South
32.52706104 Russian_Voronezh
32.65694260 Spanish_Aragon
32.72716303 Belarusian_West
32.79319442 Ukrainian_Dnipro
32.86372468 Cossack_Ukrainian
32.86922725 Russian_Kursk
32.87187400 Moldovan
32.97379262 Gagauz
33.03585930 Spanish_Andalusia
33.14263417 Russian_Ryazan
33.14315465 Russian_Tambov
33.17785557 Belarusian_Polesia
33.24133571 Norwegian_North
33.36211174 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
33.42186560 Russian_Orel
33.42997009 Spanish_Castello
33.49592065 North_Macedonian
33.53470143 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
33.56821711 North_Macedonian-2
33.66024510 Spanish_Cantabria
33.81605979 Italian_Val_Borbera
33.87224085 Russian_Smolensk
34.00292782 Albanian_Montenegro
34.11334490 Moksha
34.22171533 Bulgarian_2
34.31944784 Belarusian_East
34.61871604 Russian_Kaluga
34.63306224 Russian
34.73893349 Russian_Nizhny_Novgorod_Yaroslavl
34.89693969 Russian_Yaroslavl
34.95290117 Russian_Perm
34.99588976 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
35.02290536 Russian_Bryansk
35.31777031 Russian_Belgorod
35.62470631 Russian_Tver
35.82761923 Russian_Kostroma
36.01699460 Greek_Thrace
36.14736367 Albanian_Kosovo
36.15690391 Greek_Central
36.18400614 Italian_Marche
36.29320598 Greek_Northeast
36.44370316 Erzya
36.76743532 Russian_Kirov
37.03699097 French_Corsican
37.11691932 Crimean_Tatar
37.13886778 French_South
37.27345302 Russian_North
37.29438698 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
37.36166351 Greek_Central-Macedonia
37.36426501 Albanian_North
37.58229902 Russian_Pskov
37.75995895 Greek_Istanbul
37.81183148 Polish_Sudovia
37.82765258 Komi
37.85883384 Albanian
37.98021195 Italian_Tuscany
38.01546001 Albanian_North_Macedonia
38.06254458 Greek_Euboea
38.26064166 Greek_Peloponnese
38.31046202 Russian_Krasnoborsky
38.43013401 Estonian
38.76305715 Greek
38.92362650 Estonian-2
38.96543725 Jewish_Ashkenazi
39.11133723 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov
39.39245740 Albanian_South
39.50583375 Udmurt
39.87344731 Turkish_Istanbul
40.18527964 Greek_Crete
40.37292162 Latvian
40.63723539 Greek_Azov
40.78916768 Italian_Lazio
41.27179061 Latvian_2
41.34796246 Greek_Andros
41.37403171 Bashkir
41.37973175 Lithuanian
41.63423831 Turkish_Balikesir
41.72264972 Lithuanian_2
41.91181934 Greek_Cyclades
42.16361109 Italian_Apulia
42.21426299 Maltese
42.28613130 Italian_Sicily
42.42636327 Italian_South
42.99581375 Turkish_Aydin
43.10274701 French_Southwest
43.28811384 Turkish
43.62296757 Greek_Chios
43.92655347 Chuvash
43.97843790 Greek_Kythira
44.04046208 Italian_Campania
44.34075552 Uygur
44.48084194 Greek_Ikaria
44.57769397 Italian_Calabria
44.69752454 Siberian_Tatar
44.80102454 Turkish_Adana
45.29743039 Greek_Kalymnos
45.33281703 Russian_Pinezhsky
45.47187592 Tatar_Siberian
45.48420275 Basque_Spanish
45.70312790 Russian_Pinega
45.83046476 Russian_Leshukonsky
45.93552656 Turkish_Kayseri
45.94403226 Greek_Dodecanese
46.54509534 Hazara
48.13470785 Mari
49.66000101 Vepsian
50.45940844 Greek_Pontic
50.67413443 Cyprus
51.39625667 Turkish_Trabzon
52.57554565 Shor
52.82373993 Assyrian
52.97066547 Egyptian
53.30360588 Armenian_Hemsheni
53.49405201 Iraqi_Jew
53.68559863 Tabasaran
55.28619086 Karelian
56.16800424 Darginian
58.22440382 Saami_Norway
58.33148035 Sardinian
58.56738256 Bahun
59.20196027 Finnish_Southwest
61.12143159 Bedoiun
61.23798494 Lahu
61.95619743 Yi
62.55725138 Tu
62.73065200 Kalash
62.74558710 Saami
62.87635168 Palestinian
62.87825697 Naxi
62.97776671 Miao
64.37653610 Tibetan_Chamdo
64.65620697 Tujia
65.45967996 Pashtun_Kurram
65.65177835 Xibo
65.85421475 Sindhi
65.86470527 Jarawa
65.86865719 Hezhen
67.03722026 Onge
67.19303982 She
67.70587641 Druze
67.95482323 Yemenite_Mahra
68.08833674 Atayal
68.34127962 Makrani
68.35046818 Ami

[Russki]

(...)


I figured that high K calculator won't be good for sorting high distance populations (over 30).

But Creoda's assertment that Ulster Protestants have a British heritage is correct, and K36 shows it.

[Grace O'Malley]

I figured that high K calculator won't be good for sorting high distance populations (over 30).

But Creoda's assertment that Ulster Protestants have a British heritage is correct, and K36 shows it.

I know about Ulster Protestants. I'm Irish so I'm very aware of the history. Saying that though I would be closer to Leinster Irish than Scots and Welsh with using IBD or in genetic studies such as the Irish DNA Atlas etc. So these calculators while great for amateurs are not going to be completely accurate. I'm also half Munster and half Connacht but my closest on K36 is Irish_Ulster. Using IBD however like Ancestry I get the correct Genetic Communities and also get some Leinster.

On G25

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.01848790 Irish
0.01914452 Icelandic
0.01963632 Scottish
0.01980300 Orcadian
0.02018258 Danish
0.02022725 Norwegian
0.02206228 English
0.02219810 Welsh
0.02416060 Dutch
0.02454052 English_Cornwall
0.02493577 Shetlandic
0.02758167 French_Brittany
0.02919872 Swedish
0.03333011 German
0.03363452 German_Hamburg
0.03551185 BelgianA
0.03777837 Afrikaner
0.04000956 German_Erlangen
0.04111373 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04121539 BelgianB
0.04124589 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04377645 German_East
0.04383614 French_Nord
0.04598379 BelgianC
0.04754192 Austrian
0.04759052 French_Alsace
0.04761548 French_Paris
0.04816810 Czech
0.05029695 Swiss_German
0.05444134 Hungarian
0.05810468 French_Occitanie
0.06055514 Slovenian
0.06076095 Slovakian
0.06099953 Croatian
0.06244625 French_Auvergne
0.06462540 Polish
0.06464720 Swiss_French
0.06557739 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06725697 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.07008931 Polish_Kashubian
0.07027141 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.07074837 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07109016 French_Provence
0.07131784 Bosnian
0.07171106 Basque_Araba
0.07173542 Moldovan_o
0.07296989 Finnish_Southwest
0.07377269 Moldovan
0.07379135 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.07380695 Cossack_Ukrainian

This is from the Insular Celtic population study and would be more accurate.

https://media.irishpost.co.uk/uploads/2018/01/dd.png

[Russki]

On G25

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.01848790 Irish
0.01914452 Icelandic
0.01963632 Scottish
0.01980300 Orcadian
0.02018258 Danish
0.02022725 Norwegian
0.02206228 English
0.02219810 Welsh


G25 is a decent calculator.

But K36 looks winning in your case. :)


https://sun9-79.userapi.com/s/v1/if2/Ruq6qncTgY8kdOHMgWARyMMXn8U349aDpTz6fzbOAEwz-bXwNzE7GSe-1RA7qPmCW3_m3jWxzVoKPRPAJ3eHF1sT.jpg?size=930x600&quality=95&type=album

[Grace O'Malley]

G25 is a decent calculator.

But K36 looks winning in your case. :)


https://sun9-79.userapi.com/s/v1/if2/Ruq6qncTgY8kdOHMgWARyMMXn8U349aDpTz6fzbOAEwz-bXwNzE7GSe-1RA7qPmCW3_m3jWxzVoKPRPAJ3eHF1sT.jpg?size=930x600&quality=95&type=album

I think it is pretty good especially with the Irish and British regions but I don't know if I would use it to say which Irish regions are closest to each other. The Insular Celtic dendrogram above would be more accurate than any calculator that we have available. :)

These are my Genetic Communities from Ancestry for example and they are correct.

https://i.imgur.com/KdgN258.png

[CommonSense]

Finns. All Northern Europeans look closer to each other than they do to Southern Europeans.

[Grace O'Malley]

If someone has better pictures but I just did a cursory look which is what I usually do with pictures. Just get the first couple that I see.

Albanians

https://i.dawn.com/primary/2014/11/54626f99a96e0.jpg

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/lepushe-albania-august-11-young-600w-241369681.jpg

http://en.ata.gov.al/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/cek.jpg

https://balkaninsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/oil-and-gas-1.jpg

Finns

https://www.resetdoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Finns-Party-ripiatta.jpg

https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/w_1200,h_790,ar_1.5185784101486206,dpr_1,c_fill,g_ faces/q_auto:eco,f_auto,fl_lossy/13-3-6619563

https://i.redd.it/jytksz040w1z.jpg

http://madeinatlantis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/finnish-people-chatting.jpg

I don't know how people on here are saying Brits look closer to Albanians? Brits don't really look like Albanians anymore than they look like Finns so neither population looks close to British.

[Creoda]

The British Isles/NW Euro regional averages in K36 aren't perfect at this stage, they're based on limited numbers of kits (shown below), but for the purpose of comparing to each other I doubt there's a more accurate open-source free calculator on the net. I've commented before that k36 is broken for Finns, don't know why, but I mainly only use it to compare NW Euro's, don't see the point in irrelevant comparisons like the thread question.


British_Ulster - 35
Cornish - 13
Dutch - 135
Dutch_Central - 58
Dutch_North - 28
Dutch_South - 23
English - 277
English_East - 19
English_East-Midlands - 29
English_Lancashire - 33
English_Northeast - 14
English_Southeast - 70
English_Southwest - 26
English_West-Midlands - 44
English_Yorkshire - 28
Flemish - 21
Irish - 177
Irish_Connacht - 28
Irish_Leinster - 28
Irish_Munster - 61
Irish_Ulster - 29
Scottish - 63
Scottish_East - 19
Scottish_Highlands - 7
Scottish_Orkney - 11
Scottish_Southwest - 11
Walloon - 7
Welsh - 42

[Grace O'Malley]

The British Isles/NW Euro regional averages in K36 aren't perfect at this stage, they're based on limited numbers of kits (shown below), but for the purpose of comparing to each other I doubt there's a more accurate open-source free calculator on the net. I've commented before that k36 is broken for Finns, don't know why, but I mainly only use it to compare NW Euro's, don't see the point in irrelevant comparisons like the thread question.

I agree the thread question is irrelevant but I was pointing out that we are amateurs and I don't think anyone can say that the calculators are accurate at showing what regions are closest to each other. They are good as a general guide and using myself I'm not really closer to Ulster Irish than I would be to the actual areas I have ancestry from. So I wouldn't be using calculators to say Ulster Protestants are closer to Eastern English than they are Ulster Catholics. I don't believe that is true in actuality. The calculators are not going to be as accurate as a genetic study.

[JamesBond007]

I agree the thread question is irrelevant but I was pointing out that we are amateurs and I don't think anyone can say that the calculators are accurate at showing what regions are closest to each other. They are good as a general guide and using myself I'm not really closer to Ulster Irish than I would be to the actual areas I have ancestry from. So I wouldn't be using calculators to say Ulster Protestants are closer to Eastern English than they are Ulster Catholics. I don't believe that is true in actuality. The calculators are not going to be as accurate as a genetic study.

Gedmatch calculators were not made for northwestern Euros and Western Euros and G25 too fine grained for modern populations. That being said mdlp k23b and Eurogenes K15 seem ok for (north)Western Euros but not great

[Token]

I don't know how people on here are saying Brits look closer to Albanians? Brits don't really look like Albanians anymore than they look like Finns so neither population looks close to British.
Most individuals in the Albanian picture can pass as British so what's your point?

[Grace O'Malley]

Gedmatch calculators were not made for northwestern Euros and Western Euros and G25 too fine grained for modern populations. That being said mdlp k23b and Eurogenes K15 seem ok for (north)Western Euros but not great

MDLP K23b used my family's kits for the Irish samples. I don't know how many other Irish samples he used.

[Creoda]

I agree the thread question is irrelevant but I was pointing out that we are amateurs and I don't think anyone can say that the calculators are accurate at showing what regions are closest to each other. They are good as a general guide and using myself I'm not really closer to Ulster Irish than I would be to the actual areas I have ancestry from. So I wouldn't be using calculators to say Ulster Protestants are closer to Eastern English than they are Ulster Catholics. I don't believe that is true in actuality. The calculators are not going to be as accurate as a genetic study.
Of course individual results are not reliable at all, but when you're comparing the averages of dozens of individual results found from different regions it starts to become pretty representative. Until proven otherwise I'll believe those results. Note that it's only Ulster Irish (largely from Donegal, the most pure Gaelic county in Ireland) that are further away from Ulster British than English are, they are closer to Leinster and naturally closest of all to Scots.

[Grace O'Malley]

Most individuals in the Albanian picture can pass as British so what's your point?

I don't think so which is what I've stated. People's view are very subjective but I would not pick them as British. I find them obviously not British looking. They look closer to Greeks in my view.

[Grace O'Malley]

Of course individual results are not reliable at all, but when you're comparing the averages of dozens of individual results found from different regions it starts to become pretty representative. Until proven otherwise I'll believe those results. Note that it's only Ulster Irish (largely from Donegal, the most pure Gaelic county in Ireland) that are further away from Ulster British than English are, they are closer to Leinster and naturally closest of all to Scots.

Donegal Irish are not the same as Ulster Catholics from Armagh for example. Donegal is more isolated so I can understand why they would be more distant.

[Ylla]

Closer to Finns, but it's a weird question.

[Creoda]

I agree the thread question is irrelevant but I was pointing out that we are amateurs and I don't think anyone can say that the calculators are accurate at showing what regions are closest to each other. They are good as a general guide and using myself I'm not really closer to Ulster Irish than I would be to the actual areas I have ancestry from. So I wouldn't be using calculators to say Ulster Protestants are closer to Eastern English than they are Ulster Catholics. I don't believe that is true in actuality. The calculators are not going to be as accurate as a genetic study.
Also in this case the distinction between amateur and academic doesn't matter much, since the academic based averages used in G25 are clearly inaccurate, between NW Europeans anyway. Academic references are unreliable, many would agree.

[Token]

I don't think so which is what I've stated. People's view are very subjective but I would not pick them as British. I find them obviously not British looking. They look closer to Greeks in my view.

I'm not saying that they look British, I'm saying most can pass in Britain individually which is a whole different thing. Read what a British-American physical anthropologist who lived among and studied Gheg Albanians has to say, it is better than looking at pictures with a dozen individuals:



https://i.imgur.com/Rk3sGkb.png

https://i.imgur.com/ln48Q6x.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Also in this case the distinction between amateur and academic doesn't matter much, since the academic based averages used in G25 are clearly inaccurate, between NW Europeans anyway. Academic references are unreliable, many would agree.

I think the Insular Celtic paper and the Irish DNA atlas along the the Scottish Isles study are much more reliable at looking at Irish regions which is why I would post them. As far as calculators go they are great for hobbyists but they aren't looking at things like IBD and admixture proportions so I while to be able to use calculators I don't think they are going to be as accurate as studies.

[Grace O'Malley]

Also in this case the distinction between amateur and academic doesn't matter much, since the academic based averages used in G25 are clearly inaccurate, between NW Europeans anyway. Academic references are unreliable, many would agree.

While I enjoy and use the calculators I think studies such as the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic study are more reliable as they look at admixture and IBD so I think their dendrograms and cluster maps are more reliable. Calculators are just that which is why someone who is half Greek and half English might get Germany on a calculator so they are a good guide but I wouldn't be taking them as gospel either.

[Creoda]

While I enjoy and use the calculators I think studies such as the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic study are more reliable as they look at admixture and IBD so I think their dendrograms and cluster maps are more reliable. Calculators are just that which is why someone who is half Greek and half English might get Germany on a calculator so they are a good guide but I wouldn't be taking them as gospel either.
Well I've already admitted the K36 averages aren't perfect, but we can't keep conflating the reliability of individual results with that of the averages of dozens of people. It's like conflating the cherrypicked photos of individuals frequently posted here vs large group photos, as equally representative.

If a fine-scale study says different to my averages I'll believe that, but generally they mirror each other pretty well. Certainly more than the G25 averages.

[JamesBond007]

Target: Jamesbond_scaled
Distance: 2.0805% / 0.02080509 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.0 England_Saxon
34.0 England_Roman
2.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Target: Finnish
Distance: 2.3183% / 0.02318252 | ADC: 0.25x RC
100.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Target: Albanian
Distance: 9.2456% / 0.09245551 | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
38.4 England_Roman

Target: English
Distance: 0.8841% / 0.00884084 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 England_Roman
29.2 England_Saxon
26.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Distance to: Finnish
0.03638866 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006
0.04146629 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
0.04328667 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
0.04501937 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
0.04927431 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020
0.05136780 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
0.05463152 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035
0.05636535 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.05926133 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.06417810 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.06755651 England_Saxon:I0773
0.06924316 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.07170413 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.07379213 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.07382409 England_Roman:6DT21
0.07441127 England_Saxon:I0769
0.07620622 England_Saxon:I0774
0.07718361 England_Saxon:I0159
0.07793740 England_Saxon:I0157
0.07895564 England_Saxon:I0161
0.07905456 England_Roman:3DT16
0.07919816 England_Roman:6DT3
0.07920653 England_Saxon:I0777
0.08152968 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.08171534 England_Roman:6DT22

Distance to: Albanian
0.09370391 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.09562072 England_Roman:6DT22
0.09853697 England_Saxon:I0774
0.10124461 England_Roman:6DT21
0.10357141 England_Saxon:I0161
0.10473735 England_Roman:3DT16
0.10527579 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.10536923 England_Roman:6DT23
0.10622070 England_Roman:6DT18
0.10645621 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.10722346 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002
0.10826613 England_Saxon:I0777
0.10899321 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.11100286 England_Saxon:I0159
0.11224756 England_Roman:6DT3
0.11785508 England_Saxon:I0157
0.11945712 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.11960011 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.12235041 England_Saxon:I0769
0.12289614 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
0.12446140 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
0.12578308 England_Saxon:I0773
0.12612672 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.12895702 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
0.13050980 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005




England_Roman:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.05 7171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
England_Roman:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.0 50388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
England_Roman:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.04 7804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003 697,0.002289,-0.001317
England_Roman:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.0 45866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068 ,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006 159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
England_Roman:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.0 46512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225, 0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
England_Roman:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050 711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000 124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926 ,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.00 6461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848 ,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014 307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143 ,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.00207 7,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000 377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035,0.130897,0.13608 1,0.07203,0.047158,0.036622,0.019801,0.00188,0.004 154,0.009613,-0.000547,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.011893,-0.01101,0.022937,0.002387,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.004651,0,0.006364,0.002473,0.001972,0.007109,0.0 02036
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.13303 4,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.0119 99,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.11881 7,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.01 2692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015 608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.00879 6,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.09444 4,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.0 15922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006 378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.12084 8,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.01 9153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.13811 2,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006 183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.11678 6,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.01315 3,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.12287 9,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.00 3461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.12897 2,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009 461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005 068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.12694 1,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.01 5692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.010 17,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0. 002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.12186 4,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.01 6615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.01225 6,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003 113

[Roy]

Target: Jamesbond_scaled
Distance: 2.0805% / 0.02080509 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.0 England_Saxon
34.0 England_Roman
2.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Target: Finnish
Distance: 2.3183% / 0.02318252 | ADC: 0.25x RC
100.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Target: Albanian
Distance: 9.2456% / 0.09245551 | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
38.4 England_Roman

Target: English
Distance: 0.8841% / 0.00884084 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 England_Roman
29.2 England_Saxon
26.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

Distance to: Finnish
0.03638866 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006
0.04146629 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
0.04328667 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
0.04501937 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
0.04927431 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020
0.05136780 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
0.05463152 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035
0.05636535 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.05926133 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.06417810 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.06755651 England_Saxon:I0773
0.06924316 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.07170413 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.07379213 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.07382409 England_Roman:6DT21
0.07441127 England_Saxon:I0769
0.07620622 England_Saxon:I0774
0.07718361 England_Saxon:I0159
0.07793740 England_Saxon:I0157
0.07895564 England_Saxon:I0161
0.07905456 England_Roman:3DT16
0.07919816 England_Roman:6DT3
0.07920653 England_Saxon:I0777
0.08152968 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.08171534 England_Roman:6DT22

Distance to: Albanian
0.09370391 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.09562072 England_Roman:6DT22
0.09853697 England_Saxon:I0774
0.10124461 England_Roman:6DT21
0.10357141 England_Saxon:I0161
0.10473735 England_Roman:3DT16
0.10527579 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.10536923 England_Roman:6DT23
0.10622070 England_Roman:6DT18
0.10645621 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.10722346 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002
0.10826613 England_Saxon:I0777
0.10899321 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.11100286 England_Saxon:I0159
0.11224756 England_Roman:6DT3
0.11785508 England_Saxon:I0157
0.11945712 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.11960011 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.12235041 England_Saxon:I0769
0.12289614 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
0.12446140 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
0.12578308 England_Saxon:I0773
0.12612672 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.12895702 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
0.13050980 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005




England_Roman:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.05 7171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
England_Roman:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.0 50388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
England_Roman:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.04 7804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003 697,0.002289,-0.001317
England_Roman:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.0 45866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068 ,0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006 159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
England_Roman:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.0 46512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225, 0.001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
England_Roman:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.050 711,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000 124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926 ,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.00 6461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848 ,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014 307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143 ,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.00207 7,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000 377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035,0.130897,0.13608 1,0.07203,0.047158,0.036622,0.019801,0.00188,0.004 154,0.009613,-0.000547,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.011893,-0.01101,0.022937,0.002387,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.004651,0,0.006364,0.002473,0.001972,0.007109,0.0 02036
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.13303 4,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.0119 99,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.11881 7,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.01 2692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015 608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.00879 6,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.09444 4,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.0 15922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006 378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.12084 8,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.01 9153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.13811 2,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006 183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.11678 6,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.01315 3,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.12287 9,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.00 3461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.12897 2,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009 461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005 068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.12694 1,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.01 5692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.010 17,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0. 002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.12186 4,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.01 6615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.01225 6,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003 113



Wow, you're back!

[CommonSense]

Montenegrins from Old Montenegro and Gheg Albanians are probably the most "western European-passing" Balkanites.

Montenegrins from Old Montenegro look hardly any different from the rest of the people in the eastern Dinaric region. And Gheg Albanians have features that make them stand out even among other Balkanites, let alone Northwestern Europeans.

Coon's writing is about as relevant and based in reality as the stuff one can find in the comment sections of youtube videos.

[Token]

Montenegrins from Old Montenegro look hardly any different from the rest of the people in the eastern Dinaric region.
Source: my arse. The data from Old Montenegro clearly shows otherwise.


And Gheg Albanians have features that make them stand out even among other Balkanites, let alone Northwestern Europeans.
Obviously, they stand out among other Balkanites because they are not Slavic.


Coon's writing is about as relevant and based in reality as the stuff one can find in the comment sections of youtube videos.
Cope.

[CommonSense]

Source: my arse. The data from Old Montenegro clearly shows otherwise.


Obviously, they stand out among other Balkanites because they are not Slavic.


Cope.

There are other ethnic groups in the Balkan who aren't Slavic either, but do not stand out as much. But I didn't expect a Brazilian with zero knowledge about this region to be aware of that.

[Token]

There are other ethnic groups in the Balkan who aren't Slavic either, but do not stand out as much. But I didn't expect a Brazilian with zero knowledge about this region to be aware of that.
I know it is hard for your peasant Gorid brain to grasp this, but opinions taken out of your arse matter nothing if you don't show the concrete unambiguous data to support them.

[CommonSense]

I know it is hard for your peasant Gorid brain to grasp this, but opinions taken out of your arse matter nothing if you don't show the concrete unambiguous data to support them.

Which concrete data? The same that asserts a high presence of red hair in Montenegro? xD

Go on, name at least two Montenegrin readheads...

[Hulu]

I agree with Coon. I usually can't tell with Albanians born here where they're from. It's easier with people over 40 but not always, for some reason the better they pass as Americans the more integrated they are.

There's tons of albums with Albanian people pictures in this site:

https://tilllate.al/home/photo-albums/

[Token]

Which concrete data? The same that asserts a high presence of red hair in Montenegro? xD


I see, the Serb is mad because Coon showed with data from multiple anthropologists that Montenegrins are lighter-haired than Serbians.

Keep coping.

[CommonSense]

I see, the Serb is mad because Coon showed with data from multiple anthropologists that Montenegrins are lighter-haired than Serbians.

Keep coping.

Right. It's a neck and neck race between them and Riffians in terms of who is lighter :lmao

[Anglo-Celtic]

I agree the thread question is irrelevant but I was pointing out that we are amateurs and I don't think anyone can say that the calculators are accurate at showing what regions are closest to each other. They are good as a general guide and using myself I'm not really closer to Ulster Irish than I would be to the actual areas I have ancestry from. So I wouldn't be using calculators to say Ulster Protestants are closer to Eastern English than they are Ulster Catholics. I don't believe that is true in actuality. The calculators are not going to be as accurate as a genetic study.

You hit the nail on the head. The stats aren't as suspect as phrenology, but they're definitely not infallible.

[JamesBond007]

You hit the nail on the head. The stats aren't as suspect as phrenology, but they're definitely not infallible.

Gedmatch calculators were designed specifically because , years back, most people tested were Americans of Western Euro descent so a Polack, a Greek, an Asian , an Ethiopian, and a Lithuanian decided to make calculators not for Western Euros. That being said Eurogenes K15 and mdlp k23b are not bad for Western Euros but not optimized for us and G25 is too fine grained for modern populations but decent at ancient populations.

Most science outside of physics is politically motivated statistical manipulation which GEDmatch and the Polack Davidski of Eurogenes exemplify but the 'genius' Frank Grimes called me insane and stupid for flaming Davidski

[Grace O'Malley]

Well I've already admitted the K36 averages aren't perfect, but we can't keep conflating the reliability of individual results with that of the averages of dozens of people. It's like conflating the cherrypicked photos of individuals frequently posted here vs large group photos, as equally representative.

If a fine-scale study says different to my averages I'll believe that, but generally they mirror each other pretty well. Certainly more than the G25 averages.

Still though Ancestry using IBD gets my results correct whereas calculators don't.

This is my mother's result using K36. She is only from Munster going back generations.

Distance to: Bridget
5.62409104 Irish_Connacht
5.73886748 Scottish_Highlands
6.21366237 Irish
6.39946091 Welsh
6.44609184 Scottish_Southwest
6.46959040 Scottish_East
6.48427328 Irish_Munster
6.54846547 British_Ulster
6.68985800 Irish_Ulster
6.75787689 Scottish_Orkney
6.81778556 Scottish
7.42285659 Irish_Leinster
8.29086244 English_Southwest
8.33912465 English_Lancashire
8.57488775 English_Yorkshire
8.78342758 English_West-Midlands
8.79246837 English
8.89623516 Icelandic
8.90633482 English_East
9.07656873 English_Southeast
9.21784140 English_Northeast
9.53181515 German_Frisian
9.64652787 French_Brittany
9.66377256 Dutch
9.71043253 Dutch_Central

My main point was that I wouldn't be too adamant about making deductions about what populations are closer to each other using calculators. They are good at giving a general idea but different calculators can show different results. Why is one better than the other? I'm just saying you can't take it as gospel. I understand your point about single results vs multiple but I would still not take the results as conclusive especially in regards to something like internal regions in a population.

[Hungarian_master]

Troll thread! I think, neither.

[Varda]

Which concrete data? The same that asserts a high presence of red hair in Montenegro? xD

Go on, name at least two Montenegrin readheads...

I have never seen a read haired Montenegrin, among both ordinary people and the famous. Here where i live there is about 15-20 red haired people (some of the i know personally).

Down are few famous red haired Serbs. I didn't find any famous red haired Montenegrin.

Radovan Pankov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Pankov)
https://www.kurir.rs/data/images/2022/01/21/11/2875919_pankov_ff.jpg?ver=1642760979


Radivoj Korać (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radivoj_Korać)

https://i0.wp.com/kosmagazin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/3.R.Korac-1968..jpg?resize=593%2C740


Jovana Milovanović (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1400231/)


https://youtu.be/19YSYImRbss


Vladimir Aleksić (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3737911/)
https://i.ibb.co/2n8DGJF/id-MTU3-Nj-My-Mj-Fl-ZTVi-ODZm-Mw-ca6ecf0079297434c06007a52ad27cc5-1.jpg


Goran Daničić (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Daničić)
https://www.kurir.rs/data/images/2021/02/11/13/2459275_132132132132132_ls.jpg


Ljubomir Ristovski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubomir_Ristovski)


https://youtu.be/EMmXmrSlDc8

[Tangoranhoo]

Finns.

[CommonSense]

I have never seen a read haired Montenegrin, among both ordinary people and the famous. Here where i live there is about 15-20 red haired people (some of the i know personally).

Down are few famous red haired Serbs. I didn't find any famous red haired Montenegrin.

Radovan Pankov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Pankov)
https://www.kurir.rs/data/images/2022/01/21/11/2875919_pankov_ff.jpg?ver=1642760979


Radivoj Korać (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radivoj_Korać)

https://i0.wp.com/kosmagazin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/3.R.Korac-1968..jpg?resize=593%2C740


Jovana Milovanović (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1400231/)


https://youtu.be/19YSYImRbss


Vladimir Aleksić (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3737911/)
https://i.ibb.co/2n8DGJF/id-MTU3-Nj-My-Mj-Fl-ZTVi-ODZm-Mw-ca6ecf0079297434c06007a52ad27cc5-1.jpg


Goran Daničić (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Daničić)
https://www.kurir.rs/data/images/2021/02/11/13/2459275_132132132132132_ls.jpg


Ljubomir Ristovski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubomir_Ristovski)


https://youtu.be/EMmXmrSlDc8

Montenegrins are also known for being tall and you can indeed easily list a bunch of men who are over 210 cm. If Coon's words were true, you could do the same for redheads, but it's hard to find even one :D

[Ieva]

Closer to Albanian Ghegs than to Finns. Coon (British-American) lived among the Ghegs and said that an average Gheg growing up in America wouldn't stick out among regular white Americans.

From his book "The Mountains of Giants":

https://i.imgur.com/Rk3sGkb.png

https://i.imgur.com/ln48Q6x.png


Non-Irish British

The mean for each of the three British groups is
approximately 195 mm.

In Wales the head length varies regionally from 192 mm. in
Montgomeryshire to 198 and 199 mm. in Cardiganshire and Cardiff.
Extreme lengths which approach the 200 mm. mark are mostly confined to
isolated, rural groups. In Scotland the greatest lengths appear in the
far north, and the least in the industrial trough from the Clyde to
the Forth.

For all its length the English head is not especially narrow, since a
general mean for the country would approximate 153 to 154 mm. In Wales
the narrower mean of 152 mm. is found for the entire principality.
Although in some parts of Wales the heads are as broad as in England,
in others, such as Montgomeryshire and Carmathen, the means fall to
148 and 149 mm. In Scotland a total mean of about 152 mm. applies to
the civil population,30 but there is a difference of 4.4 mm. between
the means for Aberdeen and Banffshire (153 mm.), at one extreme, and
that for Dumbarton (148 mm.) at the other. In general, the northern
Scottish counties are broader headed than the industrial districts and
the lowlands.

Measurements on the head height and on the facial dimensions of
British are not numerous enough or sufficiently standardized to be
satisfactory. Minimum frontal means range from 105 to 110 mm.; the
bizygomatic diameter is narrow (136-137 mm.) among criminals, broad
(144 mm.) among scientists; in Wales local means of 139 and 140 mm.
are found, in the north of Scotland, of 140-142 mm. Bigonials follow
the minimum frontal, and range from 105 to 109 mm. These breadth
dimensions fall within Norwegian and Irish ranges, and seem for the
most part essentially Nordic. Both foreheads and jaws are too broad
for most Mediterraneans. Face heights of 122 to 126 mm. confirm this
Nordic association. The noses are longer and narrower than those of
the Irish, as a rule, and nasal indices of 62 to 65 are comparable to
those in Scandinavia. There seem to be no perceptible regional
variations in this respect, as far as one can tell from available

Irish

The three principal vault dimensions of his head, 196 mm. by 154 mm.
by 125 mm., give him the mesocephalic cephalic index of nearly 79, and
the moderately hypsicephalic length-height index of 64. His cranial
vault, like his body, could again be matched among the larger-headed
peoples of Scandinavia and the Baltic lands.

Both his forehead and his lower jaw are unusually broad, with minimum
frontal and bigonial diameters of over 109 mm.; this great facial
breadth is furthermore expressed by a bizygomatic diameter og 141 mm.
The face is long as well as broad, with a menton-nasion height of 127
mm., and an upper face height of 73 mm. The facial index of over 90 is
leptoprosopic, while the upper facial index of less than 52 is mesene.
The nasal dimensions of 56 mm. and 36 mm. indicate a large nose, with
an only moderately leptorrhine nasal index of between 64 and 65.

Finns


These differences in the cephalic index are almost entirely
differences in mean head length, ranging from 193.3 mm. in Finland
Proper, to 188.1 mm. in Carelia and 187.6 mm.The breadth remains
constant at a mean of 153 to 154 mm. The Finnish head height
mean, as determined by Luther, is 127 mm., The faces of the Finns are
large, with a constant bizygomatic diameter mean of 141 mm., whereas
the menton-nasion heights vary provincially in harmony with the distribution
of stature and of head length. The mean for the total is 126.5 mm., and the
longest faces are found in southwestern Finland, while the shortest
occur in the north. The nasal index mean for Finland is 66, which is
moderately leptorrhine and probably typical of the East Baltic group
as a whole. The bigonial diameter of the Finns is very broad, 114mm,
quite equal to the standards of the Livs, and gives the Finnish face
the square appearance for which it is noted.


British groups have longest skulls followed by West Finns, and then Albanians. East Finns have shortest.

Albanians have broadest skull. British and Finnish skulls are about equal in breadth. Actually all these skulls are very similar in breadth. Some isolated British have quite a bit narrower skull though.

Albanians have tallest head followed by Finns and then Irish. Coon didn't seem to mention head height for other British groups.

West Finns have tallest face, followed by Irish. Then rest British groups. Albanians and East Finns have abut equal face height.

Finns and British groups have about equal cheek breadth. Some British groups millimeter broader, some millimeter or two narrower. Albanians have narrowest cheeks.

Finns have broadest jaws. Irish are second followed by Albanians. Rest British groups differ from each other. Some are equal to Irish. Some narrower than Albanians.

Finns have broadest nose NI66. Irish have second broadest NI64-65. Then mainland Brits 62-65. Albanians have narrowest nose NI60.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From these numbers I would say West Finns were quite similar to Irish metrically, others are bit mishmash. Obviously there is lot more to perceived looks than pure raw metrics, but just for fun and giggless

[Roy]

There are other ethnic groups in the Balkan who aren't Slavic either, but do not stand out as much. But I didn't expect a Brazilian with zero knowledge about this region to be aware of that.

IDK but I find Albanians and people from Montenegro tough to discern from each other personally.

[CommonSense]

IDK but I find Albanians and people from Montenegro tough to discern from each other personally.

That's an exaggeration too. I'd understand if you were talking about people from eastern Sandžak. Montenegrins have visibly different face shapes and are taller and more robust.

[Varda]

That's an exaggeration too. I'd understand if you were talking about people from eastern Sandžak. Montenegrins have visibly different face shapes and are taller and more robust.

A bunch of Sandžakians. They look different from Montenegrins as whole.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM

[RogueState]

A bunch of Sandžakians. They look different from Montenegrins as whole.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM

Varda, I see you like our svadbe, don't worry, you are always welcome to join a kolo and dance ! :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnDKmkMS_JY

[Russki]

I've commented before that k36 is broken for Finns, don't know why


It isn't broken, I simulated G25 from your Finnish averages:


Finnish_Southwest_K36_simulated_G25,0.130665419084 00003,0.09470058852100004,0.0891918921542,0.084035 60058399989,0.029814615309199988,0.024199005426799 983,0.010474263779000011,0.015660796461000204,0.00 28970828730000417,-0.025186457502000013,0.005992400799400001,-0.006550507306999936,0.010890641414999987,-0.005642948313000007,0.0017487150559999639,0.00319 59758680001923,-0.0033929423559998046,-0.0004766613020000098,-0.000807277624000013,0.006314523196399992,0.003272 361066000428,0.007758665923999898,0.00419466336999 9982,0.002251098785000057,0.0015942785719997602
Finnish_K36_simulated_G25,0.12976745712599977,0.08 651892226900001,0.09426087741099999,0.089613718528 00006,0.02874698780159998,0.02502833973943999,0.01 1684580961000003,0.018095210905000037,0.0021849862 33000064,-0.029648818314999943,0.007532459535795999,-0.008689935428000011,0.013337593204000008,-0.0009648707179999048,0.0005675725319998453,0.0033 715328640000685,-0.003836758367999968,-0.0004217415650000049,0.0003813081039999662,0.0077 84758924600003,0.0031355414720000254,0.00648449518 8999922,0.005904785485000012,0.001733475261000068, 0.0025066630550002285
Finnish_Northeast_K36_simulated_G25,0.131315536191 00006,0.079454046793,0.10060975513820002,0.0946620 6860699988,0.02718857981779999,0.02354460791421999 3,0.014137013833000037,0.021001467412000034,0.0028 39560936999993,-0.032148687278,0.0105805485427,-0.00976865207499993,0.014951710877999996,-0.004730817510999352,-0.0007155699780000621,0.002467084058999947,-0.004925551766000014,-0.0005821365229999945,-0.00087397584200003,0.007314132362000002,0.0036103 186069999724,0.00877711009599986,0.005515480715000 018,0.00187862361599999,0.002349982055999976
Finnish_Southeast_Ingria_K36_simulated_G25,0.12902 339271900018,0.08444517128000001,0.097097639124799 99,0.0897136275009999,0.030138556334600015,0.02644 3996756739998,0.012203073175000056,0.0192296483140 00123,0.0016646403099997494,-0.03171635663200007,0.0062214397129000025,-0.010460926956000078,0.015943200540000015,0.005746 803189000118,-0.002639376273999914,0.002861934721999979,-0.0025990904290001757,-0.000850389124000109,0.0015267798790000197,0.00855 008965879999,0.0019195497840000524,0.0048171973800 00085,0.007087596895999971,-0.0002163400649999768,0.0037601862819996146

https://sun9-58.userapi.com/s/v1/if2/rEU2LCsx8AtYZ9zVQeoxBEllNwx2ApilpvwSJNltcycahvgkY-5xKqQgimZen1h9FOIQFMVd1687OR1iPa9Ton9q.jpg?size=12 00x640&quality=95&type=album









High distance of Finns on K36 is reflecting what academic genetic studies claimed years ago:

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/14178-study-europeans-can-be-divided-into-finns-and-non-finns.html

[Creoda]

It isn't broken, I simulated G25 from your Finnish averages:


Finnish_Southwest_K36_simulated_G25,0.130665419084 00003,0.09470058852100004,0.0891918921542,0.084035 60058399989,0.029814615309199988,0.024199005426799 983,0.010474263779000011,0.015660796461000204,0.00 28970828730000417,-0.025186457502000013,0.005992400799400001,-0.006550507306999936,0.010890641414999987,-0.005642948313000007,0.0017487150559999639,0.00319 59758680001923,-0.0033929423559998046,-0.0004766613020000098,-0.000807277624000013,0.006314523196399992,0.003272 361066000428,0.007758665923999898,0.00419466336999 9982,0.002251098785000057,0.0015942785719997602
Finnish_K36_simulated_G25,0.12976745712599977,0.08 651892226900001,0.09426087741099999,0.089613718528 00006,0.02874698780159998,0.02502833973943999,0.01 1684580961000003,0.018095210905000037,0.0021849862 33000064,-0.029648818314999943,0.007532459535795999,-0.008689935428000011,0.013337593204000008,-0.0009648707179999048,0.0005675725319998453,0.0033 715328640000685,-0.003836758367999968,-0.0004217415650000049,0.0003813081039999662,0.0077 84758924600003,0.0031355414720000254,0.00648449518 8999922,0.005904785485000012,0.001733475261000068, 0.0025066630550002285
Finnish_Northeast_K36_simulated_G25,0.131315536191 00006,0.079454046793,0.10060975513820002,0.0946620 6860699988,0.02718857981779999,0.02354460791421999 3,0.014137013833000037,0.021001467412000034,0.0028 39560936999993,-0.032148687278,0.0105805485427,-0.00976865207499993,0.014951710877999996,-0.004730817510999352,-0.0007155699780000621,0.002467084058999947,-0.004925551766000014,-0.0005821365229999945,-0.00087397584200003,0.007314132362000002,0.0036103 186069999724,0.00877711009599986,0.005515480715000 018,0.00187862361599999,0.002349982055999976
Finnish_Southeast_Ingria_K36_simulated_G25,0.12902 339271900018,0.08444517128000001,0.097097639124799 99,0.0897136275009999,0.030138556334600015,0.02644 3996756739998,0.012203073175000056,0.0192296483140 00123,0.0016646403099997494,-0.03171635663200007,0.0062214397129000025,-0.010460926956000078,0.015943200540000015,0.005746 803189000118,-0.002639376273999914,0.002861934721999979,-0.0025990904290001757,-0.000850389124000109,0.0015267798790000197,0.00855 008965879999,0.0019195497840000524,0.0048171973800 00085,0.007087596895999971,-0.0002163400649999768,0.0037601862819996146

https://sun9-58.userapi.com/s/v1/if2/rEU2LCsx8AtYZ9zVQeoxBEllNwx2ApilpvwSJNltcycahvgkY-5xKqQgimZen1h9FOIQFMVd1687OR1iPa9Ton9q.jpg?size=12 00x640&quality=95&type=album









High distance of Finns on K36 is reflecting what academic genetic studies claimed years ago:

https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/14178-study-europeans-can-be-divided-into-finns-and-non-finns.html
OK, good to know.

[Rizza]

Some Northern Albanians photographed by Coon. (Some individuals in other photos look too Exotic to pass while many others can pass indeed in Western Europe. There used to be way more photos online, I just cannot find them. There were some other interesting photos which I cannot find)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Dinaric_Mountain_Gheg%2C_1_%28Carleton_Coon%2C_192 9%29.jpg

[Norb]

Lol for once i agree with you, i would feel extremely out of place in Finland

You don't pass in Finland where as I do = Germanic

[Oliver109]

You don't pass in Finland where as I do = Germanic

Can you name a finn that looks like yourself?

[hurtuv]

Some Northern Albanians photographed by Coon. (Some individuals in other photos look too Exotic to pass while many others can pass indeed in Western Europe. There used to be way more photos online, I just cannot find them. There were some other interesting photos which I cannot find)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Dinaric_Mountain_Gheg%2C_1_%28Carleton_Coon%2C_192 9%29.jpg


Guy on the bottom right is probably a textbook example of Balkan Borreby.

[Norb]

Can you name a finn that looks like yourself?

I've never really looked at or studied Finns so no, but I'm sure there are examples out there. If I can pass as Russ then why not Finn..

[Oliver109]

I've never really looked at or studied Finns so no, but I'm sure there are examples out there. If I can pass as Russ then why not Finn..

Lol but Russians can be very very Meddish

[Token]

Some Northern Albanians photographed by Coon. (Some individuals in other photos look too Exotic to pass while many others can pass indeed in Western Europe. There used to be way more photos online, I just cannot find them. There were some other interesting photos which I cannot find)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Dinaric_Mountain_Gheg%2C_1_%28Carleton_Coon%2C_192 9%29.jpg
IIRC those are examples that Coon gave of the most extreme characteristic types in northern Albania. Top two are an extreme Dinaric and a Mediterranean, and bottom two are a Nordic and a Borreby. Most Ghegs are a mixture in varying proportions of these four types depending on the region.

[Token]

Guy on the bottom right is probably a textbook example of Balkan Borreby.

Correct. He is a blond giant with a mandible that is wider than the length of his face. This type is commonest in Dukagin, but rarely found in this extreme form.

[Norb]

Lol but Russians can be very very Meddish
nice try, I'm Germanic Sir Oliver of Cambridge

[Firenna]

The British are genetically closer to Finns than to Albanians and phenotypically too imo.

[Oliver109]

nice try, I'm Germanic Sir Oliver of Cambridge

You have Med eyes, Finns in most cases dont, you look Germanic though i agree.

[Norb]

You have Med eyes, Finns in most cases dont, you look Germanic though i agree.

MED eyes like nearly every other Nordic type has (I'll make a thread on this eventually) so now you call me Germanic but before you say distinctly MED? Make your mind up Olly. Chow

[Oliver109]

MED eyes like nearly every other Nordic type has (I'll make a thread on this eventually) so now you call me Germanic but before you say distinctly MED? Make your mind up Olly. Chow

Well there is barely any difference between Med and Nordic, just a matter of pigmentation, you are firmly in the Germanic zone of pigmentation but very Med in facial features.

[ecptr]

MED eyes like nearly every other Nordic type has (I'll make a thread on this eventually) so now you call me Germanic but before you say distinctly MED? Make your mind up Olly. Chow

Will your world collapse if I say that your eyes aren't that Mediterranean? I've seen Mediterranean types with bigger eyes than yours.

https://avatarfiles.alphacoders.com/894/89427.jpg

[ecptr]

Well there is barely any difference between Med and Nordic, just a matter of pigmentation, you are firmly in the Germanic zone of pigmentation but very Med in facial features.

Mediterranean faces are softer, smaller, with less prominent facial bones.

[Oliver109]

Mediterranean faces are softer, smaller, with less prominent facial bones.

There are different gradients of Med, Norb is an Atlanto Med

[Norb]

Well there is barely any difference between Med and Nordic, just a matter of pigmentation, you are firmly in the Germanic zone of pigmentation but very Med in facial features.

Then you are the odd one out because people on TA say MED due to pigmentation (hair is dark blonde/light brown, eyes are hazel and I can tan very well) and that the facial features are Germanic

[ecptr]

There are different gradients of Med, Norb is an Atlanto Med

There is a reason why Norb gets called a pigmented Nordic.

His facial features just don't look Med.

[Xacal]

More Albanians. Finns are mixed with Mongoloid

[Rædwald]

Neither.

[Tooting Carmen]

Well there is barely any difference between Med and Nordic, just a matter of pigmentation

That is nonsense. Compare this Spaniard:
https://www.bdfutbol.com/i/j/4118c.jpg

To this Dane:
https://img.a.transfermarkt.technology/portrait/big/48859-1661514194.jpg?lm=1

They may be pretty similar in pigmentation, but their facial features and structure are noticeably different.

[Immanenz]

There is a reason why Norb gets called a pigmented Nordic.

His facial features just don't look Med.

Norb is a proud Germanic Bedouin Chad. Dont worry about it.



That is nonsense. Compare this Spaniard:


To this Dane:


They may be pretty similar in pigmentation, but their facial features and structure are noticeably different.

and could you name those? I only see the Dane being shorter faced and no- the pigmentation is certainly not pretty similar. The Spaniard is a sort of Atlantid (Nordic-Med mix), Anyway, its comparing only two individuals, does not mean a lot.

Its obvious that Danes do not look on average like light Spaniards, (much higher Steppe ancestry seperates to begin with)- but even this argument isnt that of great importance when it comes to shear "looking alike" as you claim often Spaniards and Greeks do not look alike, and they are clearly Neolitihc Farmer dominant.

[Oliver109]

That is nonsense. Compare this Spaniard:
https://www.bdfutbol.com/i/j/4118c.jpg

To this Dane:
https://img.a.transfermarkt.technology/portrait/big/48859-1661514194.jpg?lm=1

They may be pretty similar in pigmentation, but their facial features and structure are noticeably different.

And the Spaniard looks about 100 times more like Norb, Danish man isn't even Nordic, more faelid and nordic.

[Tooting Carmen]

Norb is a proud Germanic Bedouin Chad. Dont worry about it.




and could you name those? I only see the Dane being shorter faced and no- the pigmentation is certainly not pretty similar. The Spaniard is a sort of Atlantid (Nordic-Med mix), Anyway, its comparing only two individuals, does not mean a lot.

Its obvious that Danes do not look on average like light Spaniards, (much higher Steppe ancestry seperates to begin with)- but even this argument isnt that of great importance when it comes to shear "looking alike" as you claim often Spaniards and Greeks do not look alike, and they are clearly Neolitihc Farmer dominant.

Ignacio Camacho and Simon Kjaer. And Spaniards and Greeks do often look similar, just that some Greeks look either too Slavic or too West Asian to fit that well in Spain.

[Immanenz]

Ignacio Camacho and Simon Kjaer. .

i meant the differences in facial features (which would actually be even relevant in a theoretical distinction between Nordic and Med)

[Tooting Carmen]

i meant the differences in facial features (which would actually be even relevant in a theoretical distinction between Nordic and Med)

The former is longer-faced and more gracile than the latter.

[Odelia]

Finns. Sorry, Brits are uniformly pale, light haired and blue eyed, much like the finns! Albanians are too diverse!


Will your world collapse if I say that your eyes aren't that Mediterranean? I've seen Mediterranean types with bigger eyes than yours.

https://avatarfiles.alphacoders.com/894/89427.jpg
These are Indic/Iranid eyes. Beans eyes are defi not Med eyes!

[Rizza]

Finns. Sorry, Brits are uniformly pale, light haired and blue eyed, much like the finns! Albanians are too diverse!


These are Indic/Iranid eyes. Beans eyes are defi not Med eyes!

So what about these Brits ?

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/paddy-docherty-arrives-as-a-guest-in-the-big-brother-house-at-elstree-picture-id121348342?s=612x612

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Orlando_Bloom_Cannes_2013.jpg


I agree Albanians are on average darker but you can find more brunette pigmented Brits too.