Rap Music Originated in Scotland

[Electronic God-Man]

I must admit that I have wondered the same, though of Germanic Europe more generally.


Professor Ferenc Szasz argued that so-called rap battles, where two or more performers trade elaborate insults, derive from the ancient Caledonian art of "flyting".

According to the theory, Scottish slave owners took the tradition with them to the United States, where it was adopted and developed by slaves, emerging many years later as rap.

Professor Szasz is convinced there is a clear link between this tradition for settling scores in Scotland and rap battles, which were famously portrayed in Eminem's 2002 movie 8 Mile.

He said: "The Scots have a lengthy tradition of flyting - intense verbal jousting, often laced with vulgarity, that is similar to the dozens that one finds among contemporary inner-city African-American youth.

"Both cultures accord high marks to satire. The skilled use of satire takes this verbal jousting to its ultimate level - one step short of a fist fight."

The academic, who specialises in American and Scottish culture at the University of New Mexico, made the link in a new study examining the historical context of Robert Burn's work.

The most famous surviving example of flyting comes from a 16th-century piece in which two rival poets hurl increasingly obscene rhyming insults at one another before the Court of King James IV.

Titled the Flyting Of Dunbar And Kennedy, it has been described by academics as "just over 500 lines of filth".

Professor Szasz cites an American civil war poem, printed in the New York Vanity Fair magazine on November 9, 1861, as the first recorded example of the battles being used in the United States.

Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, agreed that Scottish slave owners had a profound impact on the development of African American music traditions.

Comparing flyting and rap battles, he said: "Two people engage in ritual verbal duelling and the winner has the last word in the argument, with the loser falling conspicuously silent."

Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3998862/Rap-music-originated-in-medieval-Scottish-pubs-claims-American-professor.html)

Could it be possible that the Scottish, who were often used as slave overseers in the South, taught black slaves "flyting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting)" as a way of keeping them from physically fighting each other? Taken together with the African-American tradition of "the dozens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dozens) it seems possible.



Author John Leland describes an alternate etymology. He writes that it is a modern survival of an English verb—"to dozen"—dating back at least to the fourteenth century and meaning "to stun, stupefy, daze" or "to make insensible, torpid, powerless." The object of the game is to stupefy and daze with swift and skillful speech.

[Wulfhere]

That's something to be proud of, then.

[Flintlocke]

More about African musical fraud.

http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-long-have-scholars-known-that-negro.html

[Graham]

Have you ever heard a Scotsman rap? It's impossible and the worst thing you'll possibly hear. It just doesn't work with our accents.

[Raskolnikov]

Have you ever heard a Scotsman rap? It's impossible and the worst thing you'll possibly hear. It just doesn't work with our accents.
4-8VhAsjprQ

[Peasant]

H_-yDUy8yJg

Wonder which one has the higher IQ?

[Mordid]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rma/lowres/rman3462l.jpg
Scottish rapper would stand out more if they used a Scottish accent instead of imitating someone from a different nationality. :D I think English accent doesn't sound too ridiculous on rap, to be honest.

[Tarja]

4-8VhAsjprQ

That is so embarrassing, I could cry.

:....

[Graham]

I actually recognise someone in the crowd from my area lol. ^^^ I also want my time back, that the video stole off me.

[Raskolnikov]

Sorry.

[Óttar]

Don't forget also the old Scandinavian practice of ritual insult.


The northern provenance of flyting is apparent in the Norse root flyta , which covered a variety of heroic “eggings” (or provocations) and scatological insults apparent in the sagas, notably in the skaldic tirades of the Icelander Egil Skallagrimsson in Egil’s Saga (ca. 1200). Egil was a historical skald , or bard, whose extempore effusions were both verbally complex and savagely satirical. He showed total fearlessness in his flyting verses, to the point of grievously insulting Eric Bloodaxe, king of Norway (946-949) and his queen, Gunnhild. In his nið (“curse”), uttered in the king’s presence, Egil calls him, “This inheriting traitor [who] disinherits me by betrayal” and later “Lawbreaker not lawmaker … brothers’ murderer … [whose] guilt stems all from Gunnhild” ( Egil’s Saga , chapters 56-57). The king did not retaliate. (Incidentally, English scold is cognate with Old Norse skald .)


http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/686/Flyting.html

[Treffie]

Rap music? So did Gospel music, according to one expert (http://europeanhistory.about.com/b/2003/09/06/did-gospel-music-originate-in-scotland.htm).

k3MzZgPBL3Q

[Joe McCarthy]

I may have to change my vote on the Scotland vs. Scandinavia poll now. :eek:

[Odoacer]

Rap music? So did Gospel music, according to one expert (http://europeanhistory.about.com/b/2003/09/06/did-gospel-music-originate-in-scotland.htm).

k3MzZgPBL3Q

This is far more likely than the rap connection, which doesn't necessarily mean much. In all likelihood, we're looking at parallel developments in both cases. :coffee:

[Electronic God-Man]

Have you ever heard a Scotsman rap? It's impossible and the worst thing you'll possibly hear. It just doesn't work with our accents.

I certainly couldn't hold that the entirety of rap music is Scottish, only that the practice of "ritual insult" where the loser is the one without a comeback is probably of Germanic origin...and it just so happened that the Scots who came to this country early on still practiced it.

For instance, I have never seen any examples of flyting where everything rhymed. Also, the whole idea that it could be set to music would be African-American inspired. And so on...

Then again, I've been reading the Kalevala and there's a part where Joukahainen comes to outperform the great poet-singer Väinämöinen. The exchange that followed left me thinking that this was the coolest ancient Finnish poet rap battle on sleighs I've ever heard...and that was before I stumbled on to the OP's article. Both men were singing poetry, hurling insults and attempting to outdo each other...




(Joukahainen starts making weak-ass rhymes.)

The old Väinämöinen said:
"Child's wisdom, woman's recall
is for no bearded fellow
nor for a man with a wife!
Tell me of deep Origins
of eternal things!"

(Joukahainen sings some more weak shit.)

Steady old Väinämöinen
put this into words:
"Do you recall any more
or has your babble ended?"

(Yet more weak rhymes from Joukahainen...)

At that young Joukahainen
twisted his mouth, turned his head
and twisted his black whiskers
and he put this into words:
"Who'll not let the sword decide
and not go with the brand's view
I will sing into a pig
put into a low-snouted
and I will treat such fellows
that one thus and this one so--
will tread into a dunghill
dump in a cowshed corner."

Väinämöinen grew angry
at that, angry and ashamed.
He himself started singing
himself began reciting...


Don't forget also the old Scandinavian practice of ritual insult.

It's Germanic. I'm talking about all of it. It's just that the Scottish are the most likely candidates for cultural transfer to American blacks.


Rap music? So did Gospel music, according to one expert (http://europeanhistory.about.com/b/2003/09/06/did-gospel-music-originate-in-scotland.htm).

I believe it.

[Electronic God-Man]

In all likelihood, we're looking at parallel developments in both cases. :coffee:

It's interesting, but in both cases (rap music and gospel, and even blues) you will read about it being an "ancient West African tradition". Yet there are no sources. And then when they mention "alternative views" by scholars suddenly there are a bunch of sources indicating origins in the British Isles...hmm....

[Jake Featherston]

If so, then I am now Scotland's enemy, and she is mine.

[StonyArabia]

Well the Blacks themselves admit that the music such as Blues and others are influenced from Europe and especially folk songs. They just added some elements to them, that might have originated in Africa. It's interesting to see rap originated in Scotland I myself would have never believed it. Cool fact though:p

[Electronic God-Man]

After reading The Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i3E1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA65&dq=The+Flyting+of+Dunbar+and+Kennedie&hl=en&ei=Gu_GS9r6KZb-mQO1h7HMDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Flyting%20of%20Dunbar%20and%20Kennedie&f=false) (pp. 65-86) I can say that the Scottish version does certainly bear a resemblance to rap, and does rhyme.

Wouldn't be much to throw a beat behind it...

This actually also reminds me of when a certain member asked me if parts of the Norse sagas didn't remind me of blacks trying to get "bling."

[Electronic God-Man]

If so, then I am now Scotland's enemy, and she is mine.


It's interesting to see rap originated in Scotland I myself would have never believed it. Cool fact though:p

I would emphasis that it's a pan-Germanic tradition, it's just that the Scots may have held on to it longer, and would have been the contact point between Germanic flyting and African-American "dozens" and "rap battles."

[Arrow Cross]

Have you ever heard a Scotsman rap? It's impossible and the worst thing you'll possibly hear. It just doesn't work with our accents.
Scottish Rap. Taking the 'T' out of "motherfucker" since 1189.

[Seánaí]

Graham I find your comment pretty ignorant in regard to Scottish Hip Hop! The Scottish scene is massive but it is an underground scene not mainstream! I rap under the alias Hate Tha State although I don't consider myself to be a "rapper" the way you would most likely percieve but more a modern day poet who just happens to use a loop to tell my story! There are many different styles and issues which we use and talk/rap about & to be honest, if you believe what you wrote in your comment then that leads me to believe that you have never actually heard Scottish Hip Hop so are therefore unqualified to answer any questions regarding the subject as you have no real insight into it!

[Graham]

Fair enough, I haven't heard anyone here rap live.

[PetiteParisienne]

How odd. I came into this thread expecting to see people discussing puirt à beul.

[Riki]

Don't forget also the old Scandinavian practice of ritual insult.



http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/686/Flyting.html

We also have the same in Portugal.It's called desgarrada.

[Pallantides]

I want to hear Graham rap:D

[Graham]

I want to hear Graham rap:D

That lad Seánaí above I heard his videos on youtube, he does alright. I'd be a joke. :D You'd have to give me something to rap to. :D

[Graham]

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[Transmontano]

We also have the same in Portugal.It's called desgarrada.

You beat me to it but, yes, it's been a long tradition in Northern Portugal. Improvised rhymes and often full of naughty words. Usually people take turns.

Called "desgarrada" or "cantar ao desafio"


51JkEmNr8yg

I had wondered the same about hip hop battles. Northern Portugal is said to have Celtic heritage and the Germans (Suebis, to be precise) once invaded and occupied for a time so maybe there's a connection.