The origin of Proto Indo-European languages is moved from the Steppe to near Kurdistan & Armenia

[Zoro]

Upcoming Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"

https://eurasiandna.com/lecture-by-prof-david-reich-the-genetic-history-of-the-southern-arc-a-bridge-between-west-asia-europe/

https://i.imgur.com/evf3aeJ.jpg

Our comprehensive sampling shows that Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age; this contrasts with Southeastern Europe and Armenia that were impacted by major gene flow from Yamnaya steppe pastoralists.

In the Balkans, we reveal a patchwork of Bronze Age populations with diverse proportions of steppe ancestry in the aftermath of the ~3000 BCE Yamnaya migrations, paralleling the linguistic diversity of Paleo-Balkan speakers. We provide insights into the Mycenaean period of the Aegean by documenting variation in the proportion of steppe ancestry (including some individuals who lack it altogether), and finding no evidence for systematic differences in steppe ancestry among social strata, such as those of the elite buried at the Palace of Nestor in Pylos.

A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu.

[Zoro]

This includes origins of some of Yamnaya’s ancestors. This is probably where Yamnaya got it’s Dolichocephaly from

[Token]

Let's not talk about it as if it is a new consensus, most linguists and archeologists still believe the homeland is in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. If Harvard's hypothesis is all based on the supposed fact that "Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age", then I doubt it will convince a lot of people since a massive migration from the steppe was never necessary to explain Anatolian languages. Hungarian is a historical example of how the language of a few steppe conquerors may be imposed on a population while barely leaving a genetic trace.


This includes origins of some of Yamnaya’s ancestors. This is probably where Yamnaya got it’s Dolichocephaly from
EHG were largely dolichocephalic as well.

[Zoro]

Let's not talk about it as if it is a new consensus, most linguists and archeologists still believe the homeland is in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. If Harvard's hypothesis is all based on the supposed fact that "Anatolia received hardly any genetic input from Europe or the Eurasian steppe from the Chalcolithic to the Iron Age", then I doubt it will convince a lot of people since a massive migration from the steppe was never necessary to explain Anatolian languages. Hungarian is a historical example of how the language of a few steppe conquerors may be imposed on a population while barely leaving a genetic trace.


EHG were largely dolichocephalic as well.

There’s a difference between possible and probable. I doubt that’s the only evidence they’ll present. We’ll see

[vader]

This includes origins of some of Yamnaya’s ancestors. This is probably where Yamnaya got it’s Dolichocephaly from

yep. Spot on. Most r1b origins were doli types I'd think. It explains how face shapes in europe are as they are.

[Zoro]

yep. Spot on. Most r1b origins were doli types I'd think. It explains how face shapes in europe are as they are.

I just noticed this :


It appears that Reich’s team has been able to obtain a decent amount of higher quality ancient DNA from the Turkey, Armenia, Iran and Iraq regions to enable to phased diploid genotyping and thus to determine negligible Steppe admixture into Anatolia from the Chalcolithic through the Iron Age. The implication here is if Indo-European languages did not come to Anatolia from the Steppe then the original staging ground for Proto-Indo-European languages and thus Yamnaya’s ancestors must have been near Anatolia ( likely Kurdistan and surrounds in NW Iran ). Additionally, Yamnaya’s predominant paternal ancestral haplogroup appears to be R-M269. This haplogroup is also found with high frequency in the eastern Turkey region. Thus if this region did not receive much steppe admixture, it’s likely this region had R-M269 prior to the formation of Yamnaya which would be consistent with this region being paternally ancestral to Yamnaya.

[Guti]

Actually the archaeological and linguistic evidences are pointing to the north-western parts of the Iranian Plateau as being an area of first stage proto-Indo European people It were the first stage Proto-Indo-Europeans that brought high advance metallurgy (including arsenical bronze) into the Steppes.

Also, the first KURGANS came from Souther Caucasus. Maykop kurgans are older than the Yamnaya kurgans, etc.


Also don't forget that the PIEan at the earliest stage was an ergative language. Ergativity in language is native to the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. Finno-Ugruian Uralic, Semitic language don't have ergativity. I think that ergative PIEan language lost its ergativity when it migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon.

Languages can lose ergativity like Middle Persians did, while Kurdic is still an ergative constructed language.

[Token]

Three Kurds who believe that the PIE homeland is near Kurdistan or northwestern Iran. Come on guys, this is becoming too predictable. :ranger

[Guti]

I just noticed this :There is a lot R1b in Luristan. Considering their NRY variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

Yezidi Kurds have also more R1b than R1a and actually the most Northwestern Iranics have more R1b than R1a. R1b was for sure part of the Guto-Medes. All Iranics that were affected by the Guto-Medes have more R1b than R1a.

There are very ancient R1a clades in Kurdistan, and according to the last major academic R1a-paper, R1a migrated from Kuridstan into the Steppes.

https://i.postimg.cc/43LtjGWL/1600px-R1a-origins-Underhill-2010-and-R1a1a-oldest-expansion-and-highest-frequency-2014.jpg


But R1a Y-DNA R1a-Z94 is a fairly recent phenomenon in Kurdistan. It arrived to Kurdistan about 2500 years ago with the Parthians and Scythians. But at the end of the day Kurds are by far more Guto-Medes than Scythians.

[Guti]

Three Kurds who believe that the PIE homeland is near Kurdistan or northwestern Iran. Come on guys, this is becoming too predictable. :rangerAnd the Eastern Europeans think it was in the eastern Europe. Some 'Europeans' even believe they are ARYAN, lmao.

The academic world and the world most prominent genetics don't agree with you at all.


There are evidences that can't be ignored. I have no issues, only people in denial have serious issues.


Archaeological (kurgans, metallurgy), linguistic (ergativity) and genetic facts are pointing toward the northwestern Iranian Plateau being the PIEan URHEIMANT.


GAME OVER

[Guti]

https://i.imgur.com/evf3aeJ.jpg
Kurds have a lot Armenia_MLBA (Trialeti) ancestry in them. It is where Kurds got most of their 'Steppe' ancestry from. And those Trialeti people were also (partly) R1b people, similar to the Yamnaya and Kurdish types. This can't be a coincidence.

Nevertheless keep in mind that the first stage PIEans predate a Trialeti culture by thousands of years. The early Trialeti phase was around 2000 BCE, so it is possible that Trialeti was just a back migration culture from the Late Maykop/Yamnya area (Northern Caucaus).


https://i.postimg.cc/FF8hhdDy/trialeti.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/VkBw971g/a.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/VNf8Kjk8/c.jpg

[Guti]

According to Prof. Dr. Johannes Krause. Btw, he is not a Kurd, but an ethnic German.


https://i.postimg.cc/6QSz5jRz/aha.jpg
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthropedia/download/file.php?id=86

chapter 6 from this book
https://i.postimg.cc/c4XRLkGY/book.jpg

[kingmob]

Hopefully, L584s in the sample collection.

[Hektor12]

I have a clear and sincere question= What does Lesser Caucasus; which is historically armenian highland, have to do with Kurdistan, a late Ottoman invention? Its not Zagros mountains that i see in the map..

[Guti]

I have a clear and sincere question= What does Lesser Caucasus; which is historically armenian highland, have to do with Kurdistan, a late Ottoman invention? Its not Zagros mountains that i see in the map..It is where Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan) is located. Stalin deported many ethnic Kurds from that area into Kazakhstan and other parts of Central Asia.

https://i.postimg.cc/XYRzRvbs/red-kurdistan-k-z-l-k-rdistan.webp

https://kurdishpeople.org/red-kurdistan/

[Hektor12]

It is where Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan) is located. Stalin deported many ethnic Kurds from that area into Kazakhstan and other parts of Central Asia.

https://i.postimg.cc/XYRzRvbs/red-kurdistan-k-z-l-k-rdistan.webp

https://kurdishpeople.org/red-kurdistan/

I see, another communist invention. I ask again, what this region "armenian highland" have to do with Kurdistan, a place around Zagros Mountains..?

[Guti]

I see, another communist invention. I ask again, what this region "armenian highland" have to do with Kurdistan, a place around Zagros Mountains..?Kurds have been living there for thousands of years. Many Kurds were more native to that region than Armenians. Most Armenians are actually from Anatolia. After the Armenian Genocide in Anatolia many Armenians migrated into by the Soviets created republic of Armenia. Armenians are 'Anatolian' people and not really the 'Caucasian' people.


Southern Caucasus and the western parts of the Caspian Sea are part of the Aryan/Western Iranic world. It was part of the Median and Persian Empires.

It is also known as the Lesser Media.

https://i.postimg.cc/Cxy9DZyY/media.jpg

[Hektor12]

Southern Caucasus and the western parts of the Caspian Sea are part of the Aryan/Western Iranic world. It was part of the Median and Persian Empires.

Agree and still cant see why Kurdistan, a late Ottoman invention is included in the title.

[Guti]

Agree and still cant see why Kurdistan, a late Ottoman invention is included in the title.I don't understand why you are confused?!

Kurdi-stan is similar to Kurd-land. Kurdistan means 'the land where Kurds live'. 'Stan' is an Iranic/Aryan suffix for land.

Similar to Eng-land. Only Aryan term/suffix for land is '-stan'. And therefore we got Kurdistan.

Since Kurds (and their ancestor the Medes) have been living in those areas for thousands of years, you can see Kurdistan also as a place 'where Kuds have been living as natives for thousands of years'. The land of the Kurds (Western Iranics).

[Guti]

Btw, according to the academic world PIEans came most likely from an area between Northwestern parts of the Iranian Plateau/Kurdistan and Southern Caucasus.

So to be more precisely from an area between Kurdistan Lake Urmia and Armenian Lake Sevan.


I think that the earliest stages of PIEan were not in the South Caucasus, but a little bit more to south-east, so closer to Lake Urmia, than to Lake Sevan.

[Melonman]

And the Eastern Europeans think it was in the eastern Europe. Some 'Europeans' even believe they are ARYAN, lmao.

The academic world and the world most prominent genetics don't agree with you at all.


There are evidences that can't be ignored. I have no issues, only people in denial have serious issues.


Archaeological (kurgans, metallurgy), linguistic (ergativity) and genetic facts are pointing toward the northwestern Iranian Plateau being the PIEan URHEIMANT.


GAME OVER

is this why the oldest r1a haplogroups yet were found in russia?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

[Hektor12]

'where Kuds have been living as natives for thousands of years'. The land of the Kurds (Western Iranics).

I wouldnt imagine those Safavid shia Kurds make the place Kurdistan but i see your point, it a matter of time that you will begin claiming another Kurdistan around Stocklholm.

[NSXD60]

Yet another We Wuz Kangz an' Sheeit thread. Welcome to the wannabe hood, Habib.

[Guti]

is this why the oldest r1a haplogroups yet were found in russia?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
Doesn't say anything. Those clades were dead end. Modern R1a in Eastern Europe doesn't derive from those ancient subclades. R1a in Eastern Europe is very monotonous and mostly bottle necked. R1a in northern parts in Western Asia is much more diverse. It has been said by the academic papers that R1a-M417 is Northwestern Asia of origin. And It happens that both Z282 and Z93 are derived from M417.

[Guti]

I wouldnt imagine those Safavid shia Kurds make the place Kurdistan but i see your point, it a matter of time that you will begin claiming another Kurdistan around Stocklholm.
Kurds didn't came out of blue. And unlike the Turks, Kurds are not Turkic from Central Asia. Kurds are the most native people of the land of the Kurds. We have got the DNA of the Kurds. The native of the Kurds tells us that Kurds are native. Kurds are the most ancient people of Kurdistan. This is a FACT, you like it or not.

[Melonman]

Doesn't say anything. Those clades were dead end. Modern R1a in Eastern Europe doesn't derive from those ancient subclades. R1a in Eastern Europe is very monotonous and mostly bottle necked. R1a in northern parts in Western Asia is much more diverse. It has been said by the academic papers that R1a-M417 is Northwestern Asia of origin. And It happens that both Z282 and Z93 are derived from M417.

ok, now find me any older r1a haplogroups from west asia

[Token]

is this why the oldest r1a haplogroups yet were found in russia?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Plus we have multiple R1a-Z93 samples - which nowadays is the Iranic clade par excellence - from Fatyanovo culture in Neolithic northeastern Europe, while none were found in West Asia before steppe ancestry came in from the north in the late Bronze age. But it is just a coincidence, the pappies of eastern European R1a were probably hiding in a cave in Kurdistan :rolleyes:

[Guti]

Yet another We Wuz Kangz an' Sheeit thread. Welcome to the wannabe hood, Habib.LMAO.

At least I can provide my claims with academic references.

Can you disprove that the metallurgy came from Western Asian into the Steppes? Kurgans in Maykop were older than Kurgans in the Steppes. Can you disprove that PIEan language was a ergative language, while there is no ergativity in the Uralic and Finno-Urgian languages. Can you disprove that first CHG and Iran_ChL has been found the Steppes? Can you disprove multiple migrations from the south into the Steppes. First CHG, later Iran_ChL etc.

Many people in denial are just ignoring evidences that can't be hidden and repeating nonsense after nonsense. But people can repeat nonsense as much as they want, it will not change the reality. Something repeating nonsense stuff doesn’t make that nonsense to become the new norm.


Do you know what 'wannabe hood' is? It is when people from Europe claim to be Aryan, but have nothing to do with the ARYAN/Iranic world (geography/history), Aryan language, Aryan culture and Aryan religion.
What has a dude from the Eurogenes/Davidski has to do with the Medo-Persian empires of the Medes and Achaemenids, people like Cyrus the Great or even Iranic languages.
As far as I know, Eastern Slavic dialects are not part of a broader ARYAN (Iranic) language family etc.

[Guti]

ok, now find me any older r1a haplogroups from west asiaI am R1a* that is not even a part of R1a-M417.

[Guti]

Plus we have multiple R1a-Z93 samples - which nowadays is the Iranic clade par excellence - from Fatyanovo culture in Neolithic northeastern Europe, while none were found in West Asia before steppe ancestry came in from the north in the late Bronze age. But it is just a coincidence, the pappies of eastern European R1a were probably hiding in a cave in Kurdistan :rolleyes:My own paternal Y-DNa hg. R1a* lineage is not even derived from R1a-Z93/Z94. It is not even derived from R1a-M417.

Now, it is your turn.

[Leto]

is this why the oldest r1a haplogroups yet were found in russia?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
And the Iranian languages are not purported to have originated in modern Iran either.

[Token]

My own paternal Y-DNa hg. R1a* lineage is not even derived from R1a-Z93/Z94. It is not even derived from R1a-M417.

Now, it is your turn.

I don't care about your paternal Y-DNA, and neither do I want to argue with We Wuz Kangz retards, thanks.

[Guti]

And the Iranian languages are not purported to have originated in modern Iran either.
Most people do agree that a so called proto-Iranic language was born on the Iranian Plateau among the YAZ-culture people. But Western Iranic dialects like Kurdish/Kurmanji and Persian were born in Kurdistan/Western Iran.

https://i.postimg.cc/NMZrVCJW/YAZ.jpg

Personally I believe that Yaz was more or less home of proto-Eastern Iranics and not proto-Iranic people.

Medo-Persian empires were not establish in the YAZ region, but Medo-Pesian Empires were established in KURDISTAN first. Iranics never established anything in the Steppes.
But there is a gap of thousands of years between PIEans from Kurdistan and the Aryans (Guto-Medes) of Kurdistan.


First stage PIEan were mostly R1b people.

[Guti]

I don't care about your paternal Y-DNA, and neither do I want to argue with We Wuz Kangz retards, thanks.You care, but you just can't provide answers.

[Leto]

Most people do agree that so called proto-Iranic languages were born on the Iranian Plateau among the YAZ-culture people. Western Iranic dialects like Kurdish and Persians were born in Kurdistan/Western Iran.

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/NMZrVCJW/YAZ.jpg

Personally I believe that Yaz was home of proto-Eastern Iranics and not proto-Iranic people.

Medo-Persian empires were not establish in the YAZ region first Medo-Pesian Empires were established in KURDISTAN first.
But there is a gap of thousands of years between PIEans from Kurdistan and the Aryans (Guto-Medes) of Kurdistan.


First stage PIEan were mostly R1b people.
First of all, that is false. The Sintashta/Andronovo were not from the Iranian plateau. Secondly, I know who you are. A sock puppet of a banned Yazidi asshole. Banned for insulting me and the Russians, among other things. I have reported you, buddy. But at the same time I'm retreating because it's my 24,000th post, I like the number and gave up on TA as a worthwhile place long ago anyway. Pray that you are not banned again soon.

[Guti]

First of all, that is false. The Sintashta/Andronovo were not from the Iranian plateau. Secondly, I know who you are. A sock puppet of a banned Yazidi asshole. Banned for insulting me and the Russians, among other things. I have reported you, buddy. But at the same I'm retreating because it's my 24,000th post, I like the number and gave up on TA as a worthwhile place long ago anyway. Pray that you are not banned again soon.
Sintashta/Andronovo was NOT even Iranic. (Some believe it was INDO-Iranian, that's all). Some academic say that Proto-Iranic (without INDO) came from YAZ. Do your research. And I don't even believe it was proto-Iranic at all. It was most likely proto-Eastern Iranic/Scythian at max. And it has nothing to do with the Western Iranic/ARYAN dialects at all.

Sintashta/Andronovo was very primitive. They never build anything. Not even a state or something.

Aryan Medo-Persian Empires were found in Kurdistan first. Nothing to do with Sintashta/Andronovo. ARYAN Medo-Persian Empires were by far much more superior compared to very primitive Sintashta/Andronovo cultures.

[Melonman]

Sintashta/Andronovo was NOT even Iranic. (Some believe it was INDO-Iranian, that's all). Some academic say that Proto-Iranic (without INDO) came from YAZ. Do your research. And I don't even believe it was proto-Iranic at all. It was most likely proto-Eastern Iranic/Scythian at max. And it has nothing to do with Western Iranic dialects at al.

Sintashta/Andronovo was very primitive. They never build anything. Not even a state or something.

Aryan Medo-Persian Empires were found in Kurdistan first. Nothing to do with Sintashta/Andronovo. ARYAN Medo-Persian Empires were by far much more superior to very primitive Sintashta/Andronovo cultures.

none of that disproves anything

indo-iranians includes all aryans, hence why the ''indo'' and ''iran'', similiar to indo-european. nuristanis, indo-aryans, iranians, etc, all are aryans or ''indo-iranians''

everyone were more backwards the further back we go. many persians were nomadic back then, compared today, where theyre now considered the power-house of middleeast.

proto-iranic coming from yaz doesnt disprove they arent descendants of steppe nomads, though i doubt thats necessarily even true.


i doubt kurdistan ever did exist, but i dont care too much anyways about that part

[Guti]

none of that disproves anything

indo-iranians includes all aryans, hence why the ''indo'' and ''iran'', similiar to indo-european. nuristanis, indo-aryans, iranians, etc, all are aryans or ''indo-iranians''

everyone were more backwards the further back we go. many persians were nomadic back then, compared today, where theyre now considered the power-house of middleeast.

proto-iranic coming from yaz doesnt disprove they arent descendants of steppe nomads, though i doubt thats necessarily even true.
The most accepted theory for decades now about the proto-Iranians is that they came from YAZ. But modern DNA is showing something else. So, I have my biggest doubts about that.
According to me Trialeti was most likely a proto-Graeco-Armenian-Aryan culture. Decades ago people didn’t know anything about Trialeti. But now little by little academic world is learning more about Trialeti.

No, it were the Medes and the Persians who called themselves ethnic ARYANS. And those Medes/Persian ARYAN were ethnic Western Iranics. Ancient Greeks, Armenians called the Medes ARYAN people. A Persian Darius even wrote on stone that he was of an ARYAN race. All of them were Western Iranics.

While Vedic people were never the real Aryan. Only their Vedic religion was a little bit influenced by the Aryans. Vedic Daevas are not of an Aryan origin.


Western Iranics = ARYANS. Western Iranic Medo-Persian Empires were ARYAN (nobody has doubts about that) and superior to any culture in the Steppes that came before.

[Hektor12]

Kurds are the most ancient people of Kurdistan. This is a FACT, you like it or not.

Normally, theres no reason for me not to like that what people inhabits Kurdistan, a place that i dont care at all. But when they begin claiming a lot of parts of the world as "Kurdistan" because some Kurds live there in remote villages on top of mountains (they were never allowed to settle in any useful part of that place), problems appear.

[chinshen]

LMAO.

Many people in denial are just ignoring evidences that can't be hidden and repeating nonsense after nonsense. But people can repeat nonsense as much as they want, it will not change the reality. Something repeating nonsense stuff doesn’t make that nonsense to become the new norm.



So you have noticed what you have been doing all along? Yet you accuse others of doing exactly that :o:o:o:thumb001:

[Guti]

So you have noticed what you have been doing all along? Yet you accuse others of doing exactly that :o:o:o:thumb001:
The only thing what I have noticed is how a Turk (Hektor12) and Semites like you and a (Georgian?) Jew Melonman are butthurt about Kurds being Aryan people. And that you people are nothing like Kurds.

[Hektor12]

The only thing what I have noticed is how a Turk (Hektor12) and Semites like you and a (Georgian?) Jew Melonman are butthurt about Kurds being Aryan people.

To make it clear, im not butthurt. I dont care at all.

[Guti]

To make it clear, im not butthurt. I dont care at all.Ok, but then again what is a reason behind your childish and tr0llish remarks?

I believe your first question here was very honest about how Kurds are related to Southern Caucasus. I gave you a honest answer that Kurds are mostly as CHG/Iran_ChL people are actually very native to Northern West Asia since the very existence of a Kurdic race. Caucasus is closely related to the Western Iranic people and that Kurds are the ABORIGINALS of NW Asia, like Ameridians are aboriginal people of South/North America, Aboriginal Australians in Australia and like Turkic people are native to Central Asia.


But then you started to give very childish (and butthurt) remarks.

[chinshen]

The only thing what I have noticed is how a Turk (Hektor12) and Semites like you and a (Georgian?) Jew Melonman are butthurt about Kurds being Aryan people. And that you people are nothing like Kurds.

I didn't see that Hector12 made any false claims in his reply to you, unlike you of course. By the way, I am not defending him, I am just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Kurds might be Aryans, but you are not really a Kurd. Aren't you a Yezidi? Who is more of a Semite than I am and who gives Kurds a bad name by falsifying history and making all these ridiculous claims.

Here is your Aryan history which turns out to be more Semitic than anything else:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Adi_ibn_Musafir

[Hektor12]

I believe your first question here was very honest about how Kurds are related to Southern Caucasus.

I believe my first question was about how Kurdistan is related to Lesser Caucasus.

[Guti]

I didn't see that Hector12 made any false claims in his reply to you, unlike you of course. By the way, I am not defending him, I am just pointing out your hypocrisy.

Kurds might be Aryans, but you are not really a Kurd. Aren't you a Yezidi? Who is more of a Semite than I am and who gives Kurds a bad name by falsifying history and making all these ridiculous claims.

Here is your Aryan history which turns out to be more Semitic than anything else:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Adi_ibn_MusafirDon't derail this topic. You are, was and will be a Semite. Assyrians have always been considered as Semitic people, This is a FACT! Your people do speak a Semitic language, have a high Levantine ancestry. What else are you then of not Semitic? Chinese?

Sheikh Adi was just a person who reformed the Yezidism. Before him Yezidi people already existed. Yezidism existed BEFORE Sheikh Adi. Yezidi people never converted from Christianity or Islam. After the reform the Yezidism was a little bit influenced by the Sufism (Islamic sect), but in turn Sufism was heavily influenced by the Zoroastrianism.

Nevertheless, to this day Yezidism is considered to be an 'Iranic' religion.

Jesus was a Jew. Does that make Europeans Semitic people?

Islam and Christianity are 100% 'Semitic' religions. While the Yezidism is only a little bit influenced by the Sufism. Not a big thing when you considered that Semitic and Aryan religions exist next to each for thousands of years. Iranic religions influenced Semitic religions and in turn Semitic religion influenced a little bit Aryan religion such as Yezidism. Yezidi people were never Christian or Muslim in their entire existence of thousands of years.

[Guti]

I believe my first question was about how Kurdistan is related to Lesser Caucasus.And I gave you a honest answer that Kurds have been living in the Caucasus since very ancient times. Kurds had there even their own autonomous region.

Yezidi Kurdish pastoralists do still live in that region (the 'Armenian Plateau') today. Ezdi Kurds from the Ezdi lands in Taperakan, the CAUCASUS.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUFlM3CIdoM

[Pro.crasti.nation]

Kim Kardasian is Aryan?
Yukk ... *quickly sends off for 23andMe*

[Hektor12]

And I gave you a honest answer that Kurds have been living in the Caucasus since very ancient times.

I dont say no Kurd lives there.

[chinshen]

Don't derail this topic. You are, was and will be a Semite. Assyrians have always been considered as Semitic people, This is a FACT! Your people do speak a Semitic language, have a high Levantine ancestry. What else are you then of not Semitic? Chinese?

Sheikh Adi was just a person who reformed the Yezidism. Before him Yezidi people already existed. Yezidism existed BEFORE Sheikh Adi. Yezidi people never converted from Christianity or Islam. After the reform the Yezidism was a little bit influenced by the Sufism (Islamic sect), but in turn Sufism was heavily influenced by the Zoroastrianism.

Nevertheless, to this day Yezidism is considered to be an 'Iranic' religion.

Jesus was a Jew. Does that make Europeans Semitic people?

Islam and Christianity are 100% 'Semitic' religions. While the Yezidism is only a little bit influenced by the Sufism. Not a big thing when you considered that Semitic and Aryan religions exist next to each for thousands of years. Iranic religions influenced Semitic religions and in turn Semitic religion influenced a little bit Aryan religion such as Yezidism. Yezidi people were never Christian or Muslim in their entire existence of thousands of years.

Who is derailing the topic here?

What do Assyrians have to do with your topic?

Assyrians have a documented written history in NW Asia going back to 2500 B.C. I wish we can say that about your people. The farthest written history of your Aryan people :punjabidance:punjabidance:taliban: is what I pointed out.

So who is the butthurt here, just because I am pointing out your :bullshit:

[Guti]

Kim Kardasian is Aryan?
Yukk ... *quickly sends off for 23andMe*Not really. She is not related to the Iranic people. Her mother has Germanic roots and father has Armenian roots. Neither Germanics nor Armenians are Aryans. :thumb001:

[Guti]

Who is derailing the topic here?

What do Assyrians have to do with your topic?

Assyrians have a documented written history in NW Asia going back to 2500 B.C. I wish we can say that about your people. The farthest written history of your Aryan people :punjabidance:punjabidance:taliban: is what I pointed out.

So who is the butthurt here, just because I am pointing out your :bullshit:We have got ancient Iron Age DNA samples from the Upper Mesopotamia/Kurdistan (Urmia regon) from 1000 BCE. Those native Iron Age people of Kurdistan from 1000 BCE were direct ancestors of the Kurds and other Western Iranic people. Therefore Kurds have better claims to those lands than Semitic Assyrians who came from the Levant & Arabia.

[Guti]

I dont say no Kurd lives there.Just watch this video on youtube, since it works only on youtube. The CAUCASUS region you/we are talking about is still inhabited by the (Yezidi) Kurdish pastoralists to this day. Those are Yezidi lands in the Caucasus (Taperakan) for a very long time.


https://i.postimg.cc/7LNHjBmg/cauca.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fbsW-24jz/caucasus.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/3xzmx5yf/ezd.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUFlM3CIdoM

[Zoro]

Wow this thread turned to shit pretty quick!

@Guti
Although you have some valid points the bit about present day Kurds having 100% ancestry from the Caucasus or NW Iran or any one place is a big stretch. I can’t think of any population having 100% of their ancestry from one relatively small geographic area over the last 7000 years.

If this was the case then Kurds would be able to be modeled as 100% Iran-Chl using the appropriate tools. But obviously this can’t be done. Even Hasanlu-IA autosomally has substantial Steppe ancestry. 30% of the Turkmenistan-IA Yaz type to be exact (Eurasiandna.com) using qpAdm.

If you read the next paragraph in Reich’s announcement , he says A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value

This means that Armenia and NW Iran received alot of Steppe ancestry from the 2nd STAGING area in the Steppe probably proxied by the likes of Andronovo and Sintashta to the likes of Turkmenistan-IA and Steppe-IA groups

[Zoro]

Plus we have multiple R1a-Z93 samples - which nowadays is the Iranic clade par excellence - from Fatyanovo culture in Neolithic northeastern Europe, while none were found in West Asia before steppe ancestry came in from the north in the late Bronze age. But it is just a coincidence, the pappies of eastern European R1a were probably hiding in a cave in Kurdistan :rolleyes:

I don’t think anyone disputes R-Z93 being mediated by Steppe-MLBA from the Steppe down to Medes and Parthians and Scythians and to present day SC Asia and Iran populations including Kurds. In fact, even Reich is advocating a 2nd Staging area where Yamna formed for the further development of Indo-European languages in the steppe and Armenia and NW Iran being home to some of Yamnaya direct descendants

R-M269 or Yamnaya paternal lineage is a different matter than R-Z93

[Token]

I don’t think anyone disputes R-Z93 being mediated by Steppe-MLBA from the Steppe down to Medes and Parthians and Scythians and to present day SC Asia and Iran populations including Kurds. In fact, even Reich is advocating a 2nd Staging area where Yamna formed for the further development of Indo-European languages in the steppe and Armenia and NW Iran being home to some of Yamnaya direct descendants

R-M269 or Yamnaya paternal lineage is a different matter than R-Z93
The oldest R1b1a ancestral to R-M269 comes from an EHG from the Samara region of Russia. You are bringing up stuff that has been buried a long time ago, no one puts into question the northern origin of Yamnaya R1b anymore, not even the most retarded out of India defenders.

[Zoro]

The oldest R1b1a ancestral to R-M269 comes from an EHG from the Samara region of Russia. You are bringing up stuff that has been buried a long time ago, no one puts into question the northern origin of Yamnaya R1b anymore, not even the most retarded out of India defenders.

So how do you suggest steppe poor populations in eastern Turkey got a high frequency of R-M269? From Sintashta or Andronovo or EHG?? Come on

[Guti]

Wow this thread turned to shit pretty quick!

@Guti
Although you have some valid points the bit about present day Kurds having 100% ancestry from the Caucasus or NW Iran or any one place is a big stretch. I can’t think of any population having 100% of their ancestry from one relatively small geographic area over the last 7000 years.

If this was the case then Kurds would be able to be modeled as 100% Iran-Chl using the appropriate tools. But obviously this can’t be done. Even Hasanlu-IA autosomally has substantial Steppe ancestry. 30% of the Turkmenistan-IA Yaz type to be exact (Eurasiandna.com) using qpAdm.

If you read the next paragraph in Reich’s announcement , he says A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value

This means that Armenia and NW Iran received alot of Steppe ancestry from the 2nd STAGING area in the Steppe probably proxied by the likes of Andronovo and Sintashta to the likes of Turkmenistan-IA and Steppe-IA groups
Somehow you are ignoring and avoiding the Trialeti (Armenia_LMBA) samples.

Once again, Kurds got some of their YAZ ancestry due to back migrating of the Parthians. YAZ was most likely proto-Eastern Iranic and not proto-Iranic like you believe. But I think that Kurdistan got most of its Steppe ancestry from Trialeti. It might be possible that Trialeti (or the Late Steppe Mayko) was Graeco-Armenian-Aryan in nature. So Iranic languages might back migrated into Kurdistan with Trialeti people.
We don't know much about a Trialeti culture yet, because it was discovered not a very long time ago.

So, there was a back migration from the Steppe Maykop into 'the Southern Arc', but that back migration with Yamnaya derived R1b was most likely linked to the Trialeti culture.


So there was a R1b migration from Kurdistan into the Steppes and then from the Steppes back to Kurdistan. So, back and forth. Kurdistan and the Steppe Maykop are located very close to each other.

[Guti]

Btw, Reich is talking about diluted Trialeti ancestry in Armenians. Makes sense, because after Trialeti proto-Armenians (Mushki) were mixed with the non-Indo European Urartu people from Anatolia

Modern Armenians = some Trialeti + a lot Urartu


But Reich doesn't say anything about Western Iranic people like Kurds. Kurds are a very different breed from the Armenians.

[chinshen]

We have got ancient Iron Age DNA samples from the Upper Mesopotamia/Kurdistan (Urmia regon) from 1000 BCE. Those native Iron Age people of Kurdistan from 1000 BCE were direct ancestors of the Kurds and other Western Iranic people. Therefore Kurds have better claims to those lands than Semitic Assyrians who came from the Levant & Arabia.

Yeah right.

Lets look at the Assyrian Y-DNA chart then compare it to your own Yezidi's and other ethnic Aryan minorities.
Who has more Semitic ancestry?
Also please show us some of the carvings and artifacts that your Aryan ancestor left in Northern Mesopotamia & Anatolia to compare it to the what Assyrian left behind as shown below.

114336
114337
114338
114339
114340
114341
114342

[Guti]

Yeah right.

Lets look at the Assyrian Y-DNA chart then compare it to your own Yezidi's and other ethnic Aryan minorities.
Who has more Semitic ancestry?
Also please show us some of the carvings and artifacts that your Aryan ancestor left in Northern Mesopotamia & Anatolia to compare it to the what Assyrian left behind as shown below.

114336
114337
114338
114339
114340
114341
114342Are you an idiot? Assyrian auDNA is by far more Semitic than Yezidi Kurdish auDNA.

You are more Levantine/Natufian and much less Iran_ChL. I am not even talking about other not Semitic auDNA components in Kurdistan.

On academic PCA maps, Kurds plot much closer to CHG/Iran_ChL people, while Semitic Assyrians plot much closer to their other Semitic brethren.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8

[Guti]

Kurds vs. Assyrians vs. Iran_ChL

bad drawing

[chinshen]

Are you an idiot? Assyrian auDNA is by far more Semitic than Yezidi Kurdish auDNA.

You are more Levantine/Natufian and much less Iran_ChL. I am not even talking about other not Semitic auDNA components in Kurdistan.

On academic PCA maps, Kurds plot much closer to CHG/Iran_ChL people, while Semitic Assyrians plot much closer to their other Semitic brethren.

https://i.postimg.cc/dQHJnY1g/plot.jpg

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8

No, you are the idiot here.

I showed you data from a research done a few years ago on all the minorities in Northern Mesopotamia including your own ethnic group, What is a better indicator of ancient ancestry than haplogroups?
Do you not like the data, because it does not serve your agenda?
What about showing us some of the artifacts/writings/carvings that your Aryan ancestors left behind in the lands that claim to belong to you?

[Guti]

No, you are the idiot here.

I showed you data from a research done a few years ago on all the minorities in Northern Mesopotamia including your own ethnic group, What is a better indicator of ancient ancestry than haplogroups?
Do you not like the data, because it does not serve your agenda?
What about showing us some of the artifacts/writings/carvings that your Aryan ancestors left behind in the lands that claim to belong to you?
You are talking about the Y-DNA. Y-DNA is nothing. Indians have a lot R1a-Z93, nevertheless they are heavily Dravidian Hindu/Vedic people. There is also R1b in Africa.

You can see here where the Ezdi Kurds plot and where the Assyrians plot. There are even other people such as Armenians plotting between the Semitic Assyrians and Aryan Ezdi Kurds. You are not even next to the Iranics. Once a Semite, always a Semite.

Once again, more clear. Yezidi Kurds are purple, Assyrians are blue here.


https://i.postimg.cc/NFdxjcjn/da.jpg

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8



Btw, (Yezidi) Kurds plot between Trialeti/Steppe Maykop and Iran_ChL. NOTHING Semitic about them!

[chinshen]

You are talking about the Y-DNA. Y-DNA is nothing. Indians have a lot R1a-Z93, nevertheless they are heavily Dravidian Hindu/Vedic people. There is also R1b in Africa.

You can see here where the Ezdi Kurds plot and where the Assyrians plot. There are even other people such as Armenians plotting between the Semitic Assyrians and Aryan Ezdi Kurds. You are not even next to the Iranics. Once a Semite, always a Semite.

Once again, more clear. Yezidi Kurds are purple, Assyrians are blue here.


https://i.postimg.cc/NFdxjcjn/da.jpg

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8



Btw, (Yezidi) Kurds plot between Trialeti/Steppe Maykop and Iran_ChL. NOTHING Semitic about them!

Yeah right, we saw that from your history, here it is again : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Adi_ibn_Musafir

So you needed a Muslim/Arab/Semite to reform your religion/ethnicity per your saying earlier. You know only messed up ideologies need reforms.

"‘Adī ibn Musāfir (Kurdish: شێخ ئادی, romanized: Şêx Adî, Arabic: الشيخ عدي بن مسافر born 1072-1078, died 1162)[1] was a Muslim[2][3][4] sheikh of Arab origin,[5] considered a Yazidi saint.[6] The Yazidis consider him as an avatar of Tawûsê Melek (also called Melek Taûs), which means "Peacock Angel". His tomb at Lalish, Iraq is a focal point of Yazidi pilgrimage.[7][8]

Biography
Sheikh Adi was born in the 1070s in the village of Bait Far, in the Beqaa Valley of present-day Lebanon.[9] ‘Adī's house of his birth is a place of pious pilgrimage to this day.[10] Descending from the family of Marwan I, the Caliph of the Umayyads, he was raised in a muslim environment.[9] His early life he spent in Baghdad, where he became a disciple of the Muslim mystic Ahmad Ghazali, among his fellow students in Ghazali's circle were the Muslim mystics Abu al-Najib Suhrawardi and Abdul Qadir Gilani;[11] with the latter he undertook a journey to Mecca.[1] With time he became a teacher himself.[12] He chose an ascetic way of life, left Baghdad and settled in Lalish.[13] Despite his desire for seclusion, he impressed the local population with his asceticism and miracles.[14][15] He became well known in present-day Iraq and Syria and disciples moved to the valley of Lalish to live close to Sheikh Adi. Following he founded the Adawiyya order.[16] The Valley of Lalish is located within the environs of the village of Ba'adra, 20 miles to the east of the Nestorian convent of Rabban-Hormizd.[17] Before he died, he named his successor his nephew Sakhr Abu l-Barakat.[18]

Physically, he was said to be very tanned and of middle stature. He lived and ascetic lifestyle in the mountains in the region north of Mosul not far from the local Hakkari Kurds. As people flocked to his residency in the hills, he would end up founding a religious order later referred to as al-'Adawiyya ('the followers of 'Adi'). He died between 1162 CE (557 Hijra) and 1160 CE (555 Hijra)[1] in the hermitage that he had built with his followers in the mountain.

According to some sources, he established the Sufi Adawiyya order.[19]

Some Muslims respect him as one of the pioneers of asceticism and the scholars of Sufism who held firmly to the Quran and Sunnah.[20]"

[Guti]

You don't even know what you are talking about. What has 1 person to do with an Aryan race? The Yezidism is considered by the Iranologists as a true Aryan/Iranic religion. Even more pure than Zoroatrianism. Yezidi Kurds believed in Melek Taus thousands of years before Sheikh Adi.

professor Philip G. Kreyenbroek about the Yezidism:

"Yezidis are remnants of Iranian tribes who refused to be influenced by the Daeva cult or by Zarathustra"
"Besides the group of early Iranians who came into direct contact with the Daeva cult and refused to bow to it, there were other tribes who continued to follow the ancient religion without being influenced by the Daeva cult or by Zarathustra."

"These Iranians continued to worship in the traditional, pre-Zoroastrian manner, and only came into contact with Zoroastrianism much later, when Zoroastrianism became a dominant tradition in western parts of Iran under the Achaemenids. I believe that the cultures of the Yezidis and the Yarsan, most of who speak forms of Kurdish, have preserved features of that ancient religion."

What is the importance of the dualism and conflict between light and darkness in Zoroastrianism and Yazidism?

First of all, the term 'dualism' is only partly correct. Both religions believe in the existence of two 'spheres' 'this-worldly' (getig, zaher) and 'other-worldly' (menog, baten). In Zoroastrianism, the struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, true believers and demon worshippers, was felt to be very important. In Yazidism and Yarsanism, it is much less prominent. There, people believe that what happens in this world is ultimately in the hands of the 'Lord of this World' and humans can only do their best and try to understand the hidden (baten) reality behind the manifest (zaher).

www.tehrantimes.com/news/466333/Yezidis-are-originally-Iranians-who-refused-to-be-influenced


Yezidi Kurds are not even a little bit shifted toward the Semites. As you can see on that PCA map Yezidi Kurds are the same as Iran_ChL people only a little bit shifted toward the left, and actually plotting/overlapping together with the Late Maykop/Armenia Bronze Age samples.

Arm_BA
https://i.postimg.cc/prgGQvK6/arm.png

Late Maykop
https://i.postimg.cc/661D5J4R/Late-Maykop.jpg



You are just a butthurt Afro-Asiatic Semite, nothing more, nothing less.

[chinshen]

You don't even know what you are talking about. What has 1 person to do with an Aryan race? The Yezidism is considered by the Iranologists as a true Aryan/Iranic religion. Even more pure than Zoroatrianism. Yezidi Kurds believed in Melek Taus thousands of years before Sheikh Adi.

professor Philip G. Kreyenbroek about the Yezidism:

"Yezidis are remnants of Iranian tribes who refused to be influenced by the Daeva cult or by Zarathustra"
"Besides the group of early Iranians who came into direct contact with the Daeva cult and refused to bow to it, there were other tribes who continued to follow the ancient religion without being influenced by the Daeva cult or by Zarathustra."

"These Iranians continued to worship in the traditional, pre-Zoroastrian manner, and only came into contact with Zoroastrianism much later, when Zoroastrianism became a dominant tradition in western parts of Iran under the Achaemenids. I believe that the cultures of the Yezidis and the Yarsan, most of who speak forms of Kurdish, have preserved features of that ancient religion."

What is the importance of the dualism and conflict between light and darkness in Zoroastrianism and Yazidism?

First of all, the term 'dualism' is only partly correct. Both religions believe in the existence of two 'spheres' 'this-worldly' (getig, zaher) and 'other-worldly' (menog, baten). In Zoroastrianism, the struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, true believers and demon worshippers, was felt to be very important. In Yazidism and Yarsanism, it is much less prominent. There, people believe that what happens in this world is ultimately in the hands of the 'Lord of this World' and humans can only do their best and try to understand the hidden (baten) reality behind the manifest (zaher).

www.tehrantimes.com/news/466333/Yezidis-are-originally-Iranians-who-refused-to-be-influenced


Yezidi Kurds are not even a little bit shifted toward the Semites. As you can see on that PCA map Yezidi Kurds are the same as Iran_ChL people only a little bit shifted toward the left, and actually plotting/overlapping together with the Late Maykop/Armenia Bronze Age samples.

Arm_BA
https://i.postimg.cc/prgGQvK6/arm.png

Late Maykop
https://i.postimg.cc/661D5J4R/Late-Maykop.jpg



You are just a butthurt Afro-Asiatic Semite, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, it is so obvious that your religion & Aryan culture is so perfect and superior that is why it took an Afro-Asiatic/Semite/Arab/Muslim to reform it :hail:

[Guti]

Yes, it is so obvious that your religion & Aryan culture is so perfect and superior that is why it took an Afro-Asiatic/Semite/Arab/Muslim to reform it :hail:According to the Arabs and other enemies of the Yezidis, and the Yezidis have a lot enemies, he was an Arab. According to the Yezidis themselves he was an ethnic Kurd and that Arabs are faking his identity. Just like Arabs and Turks are trying to make Saladin (who was actually also an ethnic Yezidi Kurd) an Arab or a Turk.

I don't really know who Sheikh Adi was. But if he was a Semitic Arab, than f*ck him and his whole Afro-Asian lineage.


And you are just a fool.

[Zoro]

I found update on upcoming paper at www.Eurasiandna.com

https://i.imgur.com/9o86wCs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rUXLsbx.jpg

[Guti]

I am not at home and on my phone. When i am at home i am going to read on my laptop what he is writing

[Voskos]

...

any logical person would have suspected that (origin or R1b in West Asia or South Asia). It's good that it's confirmed by science.

[Fortnite777]

Reich has been hounding on this for years now, and most studies have not gone in his favor. If he presents something new like substantial IE haplogroups in the EHG-negative middle east BEFORE Yamnaya early migrations, maybe more looking into will be needed. But from how I see it, there is no more reason to assume Iran_N component was the Indo-European component in Turks anymore than to assume it was the Semitic component in the Levant. Increase in Iran_N was an international phenomenon throughout the middle east in the Bronze Age, it hit Anatolia the hardest only because Anatolia was the closest to the Caucuses and is the end of the Tigris and Euphrates

[Zoro]

Reich has been hounding on this for years now, and most studies have not gone in his favor. If he presents something new like substantial IE haplogroups in the EHG-negative middle east BEFORE Yamnaya early migrations, maybe more looking into will be needed. But from how I see it, there is no more reason to assume Iran_N component was the Indo-European component in Turks anymore than to assume it was the Semitic component in the Levant. Increase in Iran_N was an international phenomenon throughout the middle east in the Bronze Age, it hit Anatolia the hardest only because Anatolia was the closest to the Caucuses and is the end of the Tigris and Euphrates


Without talking about other proof Reich may have if you take one look at the map i posted of yamnaya R1b-Z2103 paternal line you’ll see there’s no other place besides the kurdistan iran area Yamnaya male ancestors could came from

[Token]

Without talking about other proof Reich may have if you take one look at the map i posted of yamnaya R1b-Z2103 paternal line you’ll see there’s no other place besides the kurdistan iran area Yamnaya male ancestors could came from

An Eupedia map with some arrows drawn on it proves nothing, your PIE Kurdistan wet dream will remain in your imagination.

[PAGANE]

Information from Svetoslav Stamov published on his FB profile, who was in contact with Dr. Reich already last year.

Most likely tomorrow (Friday) in the journal Science, D. Reich's study will be published, which concerns the Bronze Age in the Balkans and includes nearly 100 samples from the Bulgarian lands, provided mainly, as far as I know, by Assoc. Todor Chobanov. Of course, I cannot sign off on how many of these specimens will be published and how many have been examined. The study was submitted for publication in October 2021. On the Bulgarian side, the partner is NAIM and regional museums in Bulgaria, which also contributed with samples. There is a possibility that in the same issue of Science tomorrow, the study will be published, which includes the proto-Bulgarian samples, again provided by Dr. T. Chobanov, a hundred in number, which will put an end to the archaeogenetic drought regarding the proto-Bulgarians. Regardless of whether it happens or not, the collected proto-Bulgarian samples and their analyzes will be uploaded for public access to the specialized audience, but also to the amateurs, together with basic tools for further analyzes that will shed light on the formation of the Balkan ethnic groups during the Great Migration of the nations. The latter will be (possibly) announced at the upcoming conference in Budapest, I think on September 3rd. When the proto-Bulgarian samples will be released for public access, we will find out on September 3rd. I don't even know if we will see Dr. Chobanov's name in the publications (I hope so). But all I am saying is that without him these massive studies, of world importance, would have been impossible and inaccessible to Bulgarian science, due to the cost of sequencing a single sample. For the first study - the results show a degree of origin of the Thracians in Bulgaria, which is not surprising and a close connection with the Yamna culture in the Pontic steppe; however, they show the presence of tribal groups in B-ya without a degree of component at the same time and heterogeneity of the tribes that formed in B-ya (as a territory) after the collapse of the Neolithic world, caused by the pressure of migrating proto- and Indo-Europeans. For the latter there is a surprise - after the analysis, it seems that Yamna is not the homeland of Indo-European languages. I.e. it is their homeland, but the Indo-Hittite languages, i.e. macrofamily, originated in northwestern Iran, around Hassanlu Tepe and Ganj Dareh. The Hittites are not of Balkan or Yamna origin and arrived in Anatolia directly from NW Iran, which is what the conclusion of the study revolves around. Yamna appears to be a secondary Indo-European homeland from which all future Indo-European language speakers originated, but the primary appears to be Hasanlu Tepe. Surprisingly, in modern Bulgaria there is a heavy Indo-European component that came not only from the Yamna, but also directly from NW Iran. I have known about this component for a long time and explained it to myself with the arrival of the proto-Bulgarians, but it may not be that, because there is more than one proto-Indo-European migration with a source in NW Iran, not the Yamna. The haplogroup of Proto-Indo-Europeans in the male line is R1b-z2103, these are the bearers and creators of Proto-Indo-European culture, religion, material culture and languages ​​who migrated from NW Iran to the north where they created Yamna and west into Anatolia and maybe the Balkans, where this haplogroup was found in bronze samples, along with other haplogroups. To date, in Europe, this haplogroup is distributed with the highest frequency in ... Bulgaria, and not, for example, in Western, Northern or Central Europe, where the peoples - Germans, English, Russians, etc. are Indo-European in language but not in origin, and are more closely related to the semi-savage hunting tribes of the steppes that pastoralists from NW Iran found in the Ponto-Caspian steppe. As we said pastoralists, the engine and the reason for the migration of the proto-Indo-Europeans is that this group domesticated sheep, goats and cattle and moved slowly north and west in search of pastures, as a result of which they ended up first in central Asia, then in the Caspian and Pontus and there he mixed with the local hunter-gatherers, imposing his language, culture and religion on them. The rest is called history. A map of the distribution of the original Indo-European haplogroup today - the map is not from the study, I'm using it for illustration. Exactly how the historical community of Indo-Europeanists will react to the findings of the research team, which will be presented by Reich and Mallory at the conference of Indo-Europeanists in the Netherlands in early September, in a few days, is curious. The role of the samples collected from the territory of Bulgaria in clarifying the situation with the Indo-Europeans is essential. We will know more in a few days.

[Zoro]

An Eupedia map with some arrows drawn on it proves nothing, your PIE Kurdistan wet dream will remain in your imagination.

It’s not my dream it’s a reality that Reich and other scientists will present.

It’s idiotic for anyone to say that all that R1b-Z2103 was brought by Yamnaya to Iran and Turkey because if that’s the case Iran and E. Turkey would have a huge amount of EHG even more than Europeans and besides the R1b-Z2103 distribution and ancestral doesn’t support it.

[Guti]

Ah, Kurdistan, my love. Mother of all human civilizations.

[Guti]

Yamna appears to be a secondary Indo-European homeland from which all future Indo-European language speakers originated, but the primary appears to be Hasanlu Tepe. Surprisingly, in modern Bulgaria there is a heavy Indo-European component that came not only from the Yamna, but also directly from NW Iran. I have known about this component for a long time and explained it to myself with the arrival of the proto-Bulgarians, but it may not be that, because there is more than one proto-Indo-European migration with a source in NW Iran, not the Yamna. The haplogroup of Proto-Indo-Europeans in the male line is R1b-z2103, these are the bearers and creators of Proto-Indo-European culture, religion, material culture and languages ​​who migrated from NW Iran to the north where they created Yamna and west into Anatolia and maybe the Balkans, where this haplogroup was found in bronze samples, along with other haplogroups. To date, in Europe, this haplogroup is distributed with the highest frequency in
This statement could give me a boner (but unfortunately it did not). 'More than one proto-Indo-European migration with a source in NW Iran?'. I mean, more than 1 migration from Kurdistan? He means by the 2nd one most likely the ARYAN/Iranic migration.

Happy to see that it is now canned that Y-DNA hg. R1b-z2103 is native to Kurdistan and migrated into the Steppes.
Evolution of info about the Y-DNA hg. R1a* will follow the same path.
Both R1a* and R1b are native to Kurdistan and were brought by the ANE people.

By the way, NW Iran is Kurdistan because Hasanlu Tepe is located in Eastern Kurdistan. It was not only the URHEIMAT of the modern Kurds, but also the homeland of the Guto-Medes.


R1b Hasanlu Tepe DNA. F38 Hasanlu Dodecad K12b DNA

https://i.postimg.cc/3R857DX2/Hasanlu.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/6qkhfYd3/hasanlu.jpg



You can find more about the Hasanlu Tepe here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?364032-Ethnogenesis-of-the-Kurds&p=7525592#post7525592

[HectorOfTroy]

Doesn't say anything. .

What? It says the genes didn't originate in Kurdistan then. oldest R1b and R1a is from Europe. and P1, the Y chromosomal ancestor of R originated in South Siberia. Gutians were probably J, E or dravidian Y halpo since Dravidians probably came from Iran to India (Elamites), not Aryans. :rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yamnaya DNA was roughly 1/2 ANE (or 1/2 Eastern European Hunter Gatherer (EHG), I don't remember well, EHG is basically just ANE + WHG), and the rest being a mix of WHG and Caucasian Hunter Gatherer (CHG). ANE is considered an offshoot of indigenous European hunters, Yamnaya/Aryans are mostly European by genetics. They obviously didnt look like some fat pasty pink redneck american biker, but they're in the European/Europid family.

[Guti]

What? It says the genes didn't originate in Kurdistan then. oldest R1b and R1a is from Europe. Gutians were probably J or dravidian Y halpo since Dravidians probably came from Iran to India, not Aryans. :rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:Sure, and who were the people who lived in India before so called Dravidians arrived in India, monkeys?


Read the news, they found out that R1b, a lineage that is native to Kurdistan, is ancestral to R1b in Yamnaya.

[Guti]

Iran_ChL ancestry in Yamnaya is 100% from Kurdistan, because they found in Yamnaya the Kurdish type of 'ANF ancestry'.

[HectorOfTroy]

Sure, and who were the people who lived in India before so called Dravidians arrived in India, monkeys?


Read the news, they found out that R1b, a lineage that is native to Kurdistan, is ancestral to R1b in Yamnaya.

Australoid/Veddoid types probably. What news? Link it.

[chinshen]

This statement could give me a boner (but unfortunately it did not).

How is that even possible when you are a pussy?

[Guti]

Australoid/Veddoid types probably. What news? Link it.Here we go Australoid/Veddoid and therefore Dravidians. Dravidian Hindu Veddoid were just native to India.


The researchers found that from 35 to as much as 50 percent of Yamnaya ancestry-what they characterize as a "substantial contribution"-came from the south, specifically the South Caucasus-Zagros area.

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2022/08/indo-european-languages


Their arguments for placing proto-IEan URHEIMAT in Kurdistan are:
In Yamnaya they found Kurdish Iran_ChL/CHG ancestry and also Kurdish ANF ancestry, different from the European EEF. They found also hg. R1b lineages in Kurdistan ancestral to hg. R1b in Yamnaya.


Kurdish ancestry in Yamnaya.

1. Kurdish type of CHG/Iran_ChL in Yamnaya
2. Kurdish type of ANF and very different from the European EEF
3. native Kurdish Y-DNA hg. R1b lineages directly ancestral to Yamnaya


GAME OVER

[Guti]

How is that even possible when you are a pussy?I have both, a pussy and a dick

[chinshen]

I have both, a pussy and a dick

I believe the first part, but not the second one.

[Guti]

I believe the first part, but not the second one.They found the ASSyrian ancestors in the Upper Mesopotamia. They were up to 50% of the Levantine ancestry mixed with the Anatolian/Armenoids. It means original Afro-Asiatic Semitic ASSyrians came from the Levant.

[Tongio]

Quoting from the actual study:


Subclades of Y-chromosome haplogroup R-L389 are particularly informative for tracing connections between the Southern Arc and the Eurasian steppe (Fig. 6). First, haplogroup R-V1636, with an inferred common ancestor in the 5th millennium BCE, documents gene flow between the steppe and the Southern Arc in the Eneolithic/Chalcolithic period (Fig. 6B). R-V1636 is present in two individuals from the Late Chalcolithic at Arslantepe (Turkey) (14) and the Early Bronze Age in Armenia at Kalavan (10). It is also found in the piedmont of the North Caucasus at Progress-2 (17), the open steppe at Khvalynsk II (9), and the Single Grave Culture of Northern Europe (Gjerrild) (33). The individuals from Armenia and Arslantepe lack any detectible Eastern hunter-gatherer autosomal ancestry (Fig. 6C), which is maximized in the Khvalynsk individuals, an observation that provides some evidence for a southern origin for the R-V1636 haplogroup (we caution, however, that the haplogroup occurs earlier in several sites in the north, which could be consistent with an alternative scenario in which male migrants from the steppe introduced it into Southern Arc populations during the Chalcolithic, but their autosomal genetic legacy was diluted by the much more numerous locals). The earliest individuals from the R-L389 clade belong to the R-P297 sister clade of R-V1636, including the hunter-gatherer from Lebyazhinka IV (8, 9) and hunter-gatherers from the Baltic region (3), both without Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry, suggesting an Eastern European origin of this clade that would eventually give rise to the R-M269 clade that spread extremely widely in the Bronze Age.

They also reafirmed the óbvious, that J subclades were the CHG(Guti's aryans) Y DNA, so far the only one attested.


This inference is made plausible by the fact that both Caucasus hunter-gatherer individuals from Kotias and Satsurblia (7) and a Mesolithic individual from Hotu Cave (10, 34) in Iran belonged to this lineage, suggesting its very old presence in the Caucasus/Iran region, and in contrast with haplogroup G, which occurred in the majority (10/18) of individuals from the Neolithic Marmara region. By the Chalcolithic, haplogroups G and J were ubiquitous in Anatolia, each making up 10/28 males from that period, paralleling the homogenization that had occurred by that time.

[chinshen]

They found the ASSyrian ancestors in the Upper Mesopotamia. They were up to 50% of the Levantine ancestry mixed with the Anatolian/Armenoids. It means original Afro-Asiatic Semitic ASSyrians came from the Levant.

You need to straighten up your bullshit. You claim that Assyrians are Semites which originated from Africa so how come they found Assyrian ancestors in upper Mesopotamia then?

[Fortnite777]

Without talking about other proof Reich may have if you take one look at the map i posted of yamnaya R1b-Z2103 paternal line you’ll see there’s no other place besides the kurdistan iran area Yamnaya male ancestors could came from

post it again. Z2103 comes from EHG

[Guti]

Quoting from the actual study:

They also reafirmed the óbvious, that J subclades were the CHG(Guti's aryans) Y DNA, so far the only one attested.Yeah, Like I said earlier and you can read my previous posts R-M269 arrived most likely from Yamnaya via Trialeti.

But they found other R1b cladeds in Hasanlu (Kurdistan), not only R-M269. They found in Hasanlu also other R1b clades such as:

R-FGC14590
R-Y19434
R-Y4364
R-Y23838
R-M12149
R-Y88647
etc.


My ultimate Atyans are actually the Iron_Age Guto-Medes, or the Hanslu people, hehe.


Interesting fact most Western European R1b is very different from the Yamnaya R1b. Yamnaya R-M269 in West Asia survived better than in Europe.

[Guti]

You need to straighten up your bullshit. You claim that Assyrians are Semites which originated from Africa so how come they found Assyrian ancestors in upper Mesopotamia then?Assyrians didn't arrive in the Mesopotamia by aeroplane yesterday. Modern Assyrians are evolved from the ancient Assyrians who migrated into the Mesopotamia thousands of years ago. But those proto-Assyrians from thousands of years ago had a very Afro-Asiatic Levantine Semitic DNA profile.

[chinshen]

Assyrians didn't arrive in the Mesopotamia by aeroplane yesterday. Modern Assyrians are evolved from the ancient Assyrians who migrated into the Mesopotamia thousands of years ago. But those proto-Assyrians from thousands of years ago had a very Afro-Asiatic Levantine Semitic DNA profile.

Your aryan Yezidi Kurd ancestors arrived in Assyria (Eastern Turkey, Northern Iraq, North Western Iran and Northern Eastern Syria) from South Asia no earlier than 1200 AD.

[Guti]

del

[chinshen]

From Urmia, Iron_Age Medo-Gutian Hasanlu fella from 1000 BCE. Eat your heart out Semite!


https://i.postimg.cc/3R857DX2/Hasanlu.jpg

Keep posting garbage.
I know the truth hurts your feeling, but don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

[HectorOfTroy]

Here we go Australoid/Veddoid and therefore Dravidians. Dravidian Hindu Veddoid were just native to India.


The researchers found that from 35 to as much as 50 percent of Yamnaya ancestry-what they characterize as a "substantial contribution"-came from the south, specifically the South Caucasus-Zagros area.


Okay, so what was the other 65-50%? EEF isn't European it's indigenous to ME/Anatolia, they crossed into Europe. The EEF component in Kurgans is minor.

The rest of their DNA was European HG and ANE (Which is an offshoot of European HG). In other words they were half European if not mostly European.

GAME OVER

[Guti]

Okay, so what was the other 65-50%? EEF isn't European it's indigenous to ME/Anatolia, they crossed into Europe. The EEF component in Kurgans is minor.

The rest of their DNA was European HG and ANE (Which is an offshoot of European HG). In other words they were half European if not mostly European.

GAME OVERI think you have a misunderstanding here. The study is saying that CHG/Iran_ChL in Yamnaya is from Kurdistan. CHG/Iran_ChL people were the first stage PIEan who Indo-Europeanised the Yamnaya Horizon.


Modern Greeks are most likely the closest people to Yamnaya.

Kurds are most likely the closest people to the proto-Indo-Anatolians and the first stage CHG/Iran_ChL proto-Indo Europeans from Eastern Kurdistan.