[split] Greek mess and off-topic from Paintbucket Europe

[Absinthe]

It is funny to see how fast and drastically opinions change because of a credit crisis:
up to a couple of years ago most people loved Greece, favourite travel destination, sunny country, nice beaches, hospitable people, great food, lots of fun etc...

Now, say 8 out of 10 here, regardless of their geopolitical position in relation to Greece, seem to dislike, hate or want to burn it :p
Can't blame some of them (especially the Germans) for disliking, but it's an interesting phenomenon nevertheless. Not to say that Greeks haven't royally f--- up, but it seems everyone needs a scapegoat to blame for the failure of the European Union.

[Unurautare]

It is funny to see how fast and drastically opinions change because of a credit crisis:
up to a couple of years ago most people loved Greece, favourite travel destination, sunny country, nice beaches, hospitable people, great food, lots of fun etc...

Now, say 8 out of 10 here, regardless of their geopolitical position in relation to Greece, seem to dislike, hate or want to burn it :p
Can't blame some of them (especially the Germans) for disliking, but it's an interesting phenomenon nevertheless. Not to say that Greeks haven't royally f--- up, but it seems everyone needs a scapegoat to blame for the failure of the European Union.

If the European Union fails because of Greece I'll love you guys forever. ;)

[Breedingvariety]

It is funny to see how fast and drastically opinions change because of a credit crisis:
up to a couple of years ago most people loved Greece, favourite travel destination, sunny country, nice beaches, hospitable people, great food, lots of fun etc...

Now, say 8 out of 10 here, regardless of their geopolitical position in relation to Greece, seem to dislike, hate or want to burn it :p
Can't blame some of them (especially the Germans) for disliking, but it's an interesting phenomenon nevertheless. Not to say that Greeks haven't royally f--- up, but it seems everyone needs a scapegoat to blame for the failure of the European Union.
I don't blame Greece.

It is a banking crisis and Greece is a scapegoat. They want to take over Greek national assets.

[Phil75231]

Absinthe,

Not just Greece's fault, though I'm not shifting blame away from Greece...but rather ADDING BLAME to the entire EU. They issued a common currency when nations had too much power to determine their own fiscal policy. As I said in another post recently, the EU really has to be a true European Federation, with no nation having any more sovereignty than a US state does, in order for a single currency to work. This is particularly true regarding the lack of a unified financial regulatory system (i.e. London, Paris, Berlin, Athens, etc..instead of all-Brussels) and unwillingness to kick a country out of the Eurozone if a member-nation exceeded the deficit to GDP limit.

[Absinthe]

If the European Union fails because of Greece I'll love you guys forever. ;)
It's not failing because of the Greeks. It's failing because it was a lousy and idiotic concept to begin with - and doomed to failure.
If it weren't the Greeks it would have been someone else. :)

[Flintlocke]

It's failing because it was a lousy and idiotic concept to begin with

If it weren't a lousy and idiotic concept it would have withstood the crisis.

[Absinthe]

Absinthe,

Not just Greece's fault, though I'm not shifting blame away from Greece...but rather ADDING BLAME to the entire EU. They issued a common currency when nations had too much power to determine their own fiscal policy. As I said in another post recently, the EU really has to be a true European Federation, with no nation having any more sovereignty than a US state does, in order for a single currency to work.

That is exactly one of the reasons the Union was doomed to failure.

European nations are NOT states of America. They are very different, there is extreme hostility and unwillingness to cooperate (as you can see also in this board), there are too many historical conflicts and bad history between them, and that is only the psychological component.

When it comes to the financial component, one could not regard them as equals or even just partners, one simply cannot put apples and oranges in the same bag and regard them as one thing.

NW European countries have entirely different, stronger and wealthier economies than the South. It is unfair both to the North and to the South to force them to equate.

As for the sovereignty issue: let's get real. There is no way on earth that Europeans would agree to give up the illusion of their national sovereignty to form a federal union. They are so different to each other and they hate each other's guts. It's like asking the States to unite with China and accept orders from a common centre - impossible ...

[Breedingvariety]

Not just Greece's fault, though I'm not shifting blame away from Greece...but rather ADDING BLAME to the entire EU. They issued a common currency when nations had too much power to determine their own fiscal policy. As I said in another post recently, the EU really has to be a true European Federation, with no nation having any more sovereignty than a US state does, in order for a single currency to work. This is particularly true regarding the lack of a unified financial regulatory system (i.e. London, Paris, Berlin, Athens, etc..instead of all-Brussels) and unwillingness to kick a country out of the Eurozone if a member-nation exceeded the deficit to GDP limit.
Single currency can work. It's not about Euro currency failing. It's about concentration of power within current European framework.

[Fenlander]

It is funny to see how fast and drastically opinions change because of a credit crisis:
up to a couple of years ago most people loved Greece, favourite travel destination, sunny country, nice beaches, hospitable people, great food, lots of fun etc...

Now, say 8 out of 10 here, regardless of their geopolitical position in relation to Greece, seem to dislike, hate or want to burn it :p
Can't blame some of them (especially the Germans) for disliking, but it's an interesting phenomenon nevertheless. Not to say that Greeks haven't royally f--- up, but it seems everyone needs a scapegoat to blame for the failure of the European Union.

You're joking, right? Greece is one of the poorest nations is Europe (well, it certainly is now), but workers were being giving bigger bonus' than their British, French and German counterparts. Greek bus drivers are given an additional £75 per month 'to buy milk with' (you think they use this money for 'milk')? The Greek system is pretty corrupt.

British private doctors earn (on average) £200,000-£240,000 per year. What do they earn in Greece? £40,000 (infact they earn between £160,000-£180,000, but they prefer to take their money 'cash in hand' than declair it and get taxed).

Who is to blame? The EU as a whole, because it allowed Greece to steal European money. Who took the money? The Greeks! Why should they live a life of luxury, while the rest of the European people work their arses off to pay for themselves? Serves us right for allowing a 2nd world nation into the Euro.

[Breedingvariety]

Who is to blame? The EU as a whole, because it allowed Greece to steal European money. Who took the money? The Greeks! Why should they live a life of luxury, while the rest of the European people work their arses off to pay for themselves? Serves us right for allowing a 2nd world nation into the Euro.
If Greeks took what they were given,- it wasn't stealing.

[Absinthe]

You're joking, right? Greece is one of the poorest nations is Europe (well, it certainly is now), but workers were being giving bigger bonus' than their British, French and German counterparts.

That is totally inaccurate media propaganda.

Greeks have among the lowest salaries in Europe. The average salary is 800 euros per month. That is 1/2 or 1/3 of what other Europeans are earning per month.

The bonuses/benefits that you hear about are the exceptional cases of a handful of high ranked civil servants and/or syndicalists of the public sector who were given such because they in fact hold positions of influence and political power.
This not only does not hold true for the rest of Greeks but it is quite the opposite. With 800 euros per month, most are forced to work 2 and 3 jobs to meet their ends.



Greek bus drivers are given an additional £75 per month 'to buy milk with' (you think they use this money for 'milk')? The Greek system is pretty corrupt.

Yes the Greek system is entirely corrupt, nobody denies that. But we are not all in the same bag here, not everyone is corrupt, and not everyone (and certainly not me or anyone else I know) gets a bonus for milk.


British private doctors earn (on average) £200,000-£240,000 per year. What do they earn in Greece? £40,000 (infact they earn between £160,000-£180,000, but they prefer to take their money 'cash in hand' than declair it and get taxed).

Greek doctors in state hospitals are among the lowest paid doctors in Europe. Not to justify the bastards, but that has led them to ask for the "envelope" under the table so that they compensate for their low payments.

For the record I heavily dislike Greek doctors (among other similar over-privileged groups). But unfortunately the state health system is so terrible here, that if you don't pay the black money, you will be left for dead at the hospital corridor. I have very recent family examples.

And in any case, again, not all Greeks are doctors. Why should I (not I specifically, it's a figure of speech) take the blame for what doctors are doing?


Who is to blame? The EU as a whole, because it allowed Greece to steal European money.

Right. The European Union was throwing money for decades into a country they knew was corrupt, backward and unproductive.
Why did they do it?
Did they love the Greeks so much? Or did they also get some benefits in exchange (such as selling their products to the nouveau-riche and over-consumerist Greece?)


Who took the money? The Greeks! Why should they live a life of luxury, while the rest of the European people work their arses off to pay for themselves? Serves us right for allowing a 2nd world nation into the Euro.

Greeks were handed money they mostly did not work for by the EU (they didn't go to the Central European Bank and steal it) and at the same time they were brainwashed to become the most passionate consumers of foreign products.
I remember in the 80s-early 90s that was called "xenomania" - the phenomenon that Greeks, as marketing victims, consumed only foreign and imported products.
It was so strong that the local businesses dies. There were even TV spots urging people to turn away from this and to consume Greek.
I tell you that, Germany, France and Italy surely got their money back at least for the first years of loaning.

[Absinthe]

Who is to blame? The EU as a whole, because it allowed Greece to steal European money.

LOL yes, I notice the phrasing of this sentence : surreal! :thumb001:


If I lend you my laptop I will say I allowed you to come to my place and steal my laptop. :p

[Peyrol]

You're joking, right? Greece is one of the poorest nations is Europe (well, it certainly is now), but workers were being giving bigger bonus' than their British, French and German counterparts. Greek bus drivers are given an additional £75 per month 'to buy milk with' (you think they use this money for 'milk')? The Greek system is pretty corrupt.

British private doctors earn (on average) £200,000-£240,000 per year. What do they earn in Greece? £40,000 (infact they earn between £160,000-£180,000, but they prefer to take their money 'cash in hand' than declair it and get taxed).

Who is to blame? The EU as a whole, because it allowed Greece to steal European money. Who took the money? The Greeks! Why should they live a life of luxury, while the rest of the European people work their arses off to pay for themselves? Serves us right for allowing a 2nd world nation into the Euro.


Poorest european nations are the eastern slavic countries and some other states that here on TA are cosidered a sorta of aryan paradises, when in real life they've a quality of life lower than Zambia or Burkina Faso :laugh:

[Unurautare]

Poorest european nations are the eastern slavic countries and some other states that here on TA are cosidered a sorta of aryan paradises, when in real life they've a quality of life lower than Zambia or Burkina Faso :laugh:

Spot on. Ukraine and Belarus are die besten,and they don't even have "racial alien" immigrants to worry about.
Although I wouldn't call them aryan paradises,one is a 'communist paradise' and the other is a tatar/mong 'paradise' full of AIDS.

[Phil75231]

As for the sovereignty issue: let's get real. There is no way on earth that Europeans would agree to give up the illusion of their national sovereignty to form a federal union. They are so different to each other and they hate each other's guts. It's like asking the States to unite with China and accept orders from a common centre - impossible ...

Well, I'm not actually advocating such a European Federation, in which Germany's merely it's California in economic terms and Greece is likewise a sort-of Louisiana*, etc. Just explaining what it would take for the Euro to be successful.

*I can talk about it because I spent 30 nonconsecutive years of my life there - and a 3rd generation native too :D

[Peyrol]

Well, I'm not actually advocating such a European Federation, in which Germany's merely it's California in economic terms and Greece is likewise a sort-of Oklahoma, etc. Just explaining what it would take for the Euro to be successful.

EU worked better when we were only 15 states, not like nowadays when we accept anyone who want join.

[Monolith]

Well, I'm not actually advocating such a European Federation, in which Germany's merely it's California in economic terms and Greece is likewise a sort-of Louisiana*, etc. Just explaining what it would take for the Euro to be successful.
Indeed, the common market would be doing much better if the member states were more similar. It won't happen in any foreseeable future though. ;)

Not that it would be a good thing. Such economic prosperity would be built on a cultural disaster of massive proportions.

[Breedingvariety]

you are witnessing a central bank takeover of a society (related to Greece):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eoxSufD3H4

Who is Greece's new prime minister? (CNN article):
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/10/world/greece-papademos-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Some CNN quotes:

Lucas Papademos, 64, a former banker and European Central Bank vice president, is scheduled to be sworn in as the new Greek prime minister at 2 p.m. Friday. Observers say the move is thought to mark a shift toward a more technocratic administration -- an interim government made up primarily of experts rather than politicians.

He holds a master's degree in electrical engineering and a doctorate in economics, both from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, credentials he's quietly employed in a recent effort to right his country's debt-laden economy.

Lombardi added that a technocratic administration is meant to "insulate (policymakers) from the pressure of the electorate."

In neighboring Italy, President Giorgio Napolitano pledged his country will adopt a series of austerity measures promised to the European Union.

New Greek prime minister Lucas Papademos to be sworn in:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8883107/New-Greek-prime-minister-Lucas-Papademos-to-be-sworn-in.html

Some Telegraph quotes:

“They tried the politicians in Greece and that didn’t work, so they need a technocrat to get the country back on track by making some very difficult decisions,” Shada Islam, an analyst at the Friends of Europe policy-advisory group in Brussels, said in a telephone interview.

Former European Commissioner Stavros Dimas, from New Democracy, will also become a deputy prime minister, replacing Theodoros Pangalos of Papandreou’s Pasok party, the Athens-based newspaper reported.

Papademos, 64, a former governor of the Greek central bank who oversaw the country’s adoption of the euro, was the top choice to lead the unity government, according to a Kapa Research poll of 1,009 people surveyed for To Vima newspaper on October 29.

“He certainly speaks the language and shares the philosophy of Greece’s EU and ECB counterparts,” Riccardo Barbieri, chief European economist at Mizuho International Plc in London, said in a phone interview. “He is not responsible for Greece’s fiscal profligacy. The only thing you can hold against him is that he helped take Greece into the euro.”

[Fenlander]

LOL yes, I notice the phrasing of this sentence : surreal! :thumb001:


If I lend you my laptop I will say I allowed you to come to my place and steal my laptop. :p

If you leant me your laptop, I would give it back. You've given a bad example.

[Breedingvariety]

If you leant me your laptop, I would give it back. You've given a bad example.
Nobody owes anything to anybody.

If you can take it, it's yours.

There is no evil, there's war.

[Breedingvariety]

If you leant me your laptop, I would give it back.
Otherwise, learn about money to learn about ownership.

[Monolith]

Nobody owes anything to anybody.

If you can take it, it's yours.

There is no evil, there's war.
Man, I don't know what are you smoking, but I want some. :thumb001:

[Breedingvariety]

Revisiting Civics- Ownership:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2VDC8UQ3c8

[Wanderlust]

Off-topic posts moved.

[Siberyak]

Is the EU really going to fail? Will it sort out its problems in time?

[Breedingvariety]

Is the EU really going to fail? Will it sort out its problems in time?
I personally don't think it will. Although I don't exclude such possibility.

I don't think it will fail, because I believe our rulers don't want it to fail.

[Siberyak]

I personally don't think it will. Although I don't exclude such possibility.

I don't think it will fail, because I believe our rulers don't want it to fail.

Well then maybe the people can bring it down :)

[Eldritch]

Is the EU really going to fail? Will it sort out its problems in time?

Yes and no respectively, because the EU's problems go deeper than just one credit crisis.

Since we're in the Greek subforum, let's put it in the terms of the grandfather of sociology, Polybius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius): we are now reaching the final stage of anacyclosis.


But when a new generation arises and the democracy falls into the hands of the grandchildren of its founders, they have become so accustomed to freedom and equality that they no longer value them, and begin to aim at pre-eminence, and it is chiefly those of ample fortune who fall into this error.

So when they begin to lust for power and cannot attain it for themselves or through their own good qualities, they ruin their estates, tempting and corrupting the people in every possible way. And hence, when they have, in their foolish thirst for reputation, created in the masses an appetite for gifts and the habit of receiving them, democracy in turns is abolished and turns into a rule of force and violence.

For the people, having grown accustomed to feed at the expense of others and depend for their livelihood on the property of others ... degenerate again into perfect savages and find once again a master and a monarch. Thus, at the end, when democracy degenerates into ochlocracy, civility and knowledge of right and wrong are forgotten, and men live together, herding like animals.

Sound familiar? ;)

There's something to be said for the pre-Christian cyclical view of history, methinks.

[Boudica]

:eek:

[Incal]

It is funny to see how fast and drastically opinions change because of a credit crisis:
up to a couple of years ago most people loved Greece, favourite travel destination, sunny country, nice beaches, hospitable people, great food, lots of fun etc...

Now, say 8 out of 10 here, regardless of their geopolitical position in relation to Greece, seem to dislike, hate or want to burn it :p

Well I don't know about the rest but it doesn't matter what, I will always love greek girls the same :D

[Fenlander]

Otherwise, learn about money to learn about ownership.

Don't you think you should direct this towards the Greek members of the forum.

I am perfectly aware that there are many Greeks who are not to blame for the terrible situation which is facing their country (and Europe). I do however believe that a unique 'take all you can get your hands on' culture has emerged in Greece. The system is currupt, and this corruption (or abandonment of ethics) has sadly leaked down into the Greek population.

Britian isn't 'whiter than white', either. We've got enough debt to cripple even some of the wealthiest of nations. However, there is a certain stigma in Britian (and in many other 'major' European nations) when it comes to lending and collecting debt. In Greece it is seen as far more acceptable to effectively 'leech'.

Sadly, we're going to see some rather long lasting social problems in Greece as a result of this. It's not the sort of place one would like to raise their child, and it wont be for couple of decades atleast.

[Absinthe]

Sadly, we're going to see some rather long lasting social problems in Greece as a result of this. It's not the sort of place one would like to raise their child, and it wont be for couple of decades atleast.

Let's keep this last sentence....probably the truest statement that has been made about Greece in all the endless discussions here. :(

[Siberyak]

Let's keep this last sentence....probably the truest statement that has been made about Greece in all the endless discussions here. :(

Well then this means the country dies. :(

[Absinthe]

Well then this means the country dies. :(
It's dead already (or at least it's been dying for the last 4 decades) so you know what they say - what goes down, must come up...
(hopefully) :(

[Siberyak]

November 17th is coming up. Isn't that some kind of holiday in Greece? Correct me if I'm wrong. Could this be a day of violence and anger?

[Queen B]

November 17th is coming up. Isn't that some kind of holiday in Greece? Correct me if I'm wrong. Could this be a day of violence and anger?

Not exactly ''holiday''. Its the aniversary of bringing down the Junta regime.

Its an ''intense'' day, every year. But with the shit we are on now, I guess will be worst

[Siberyak]

Not exactly ''holiday''. Its the aniversary of bringing down the Junta regime.

Its an ''intense'' day, every year. But with the shit we are on now, I guess will be worst

So we can expect to the riot police again I would imagine.

[Queen B]

So we can expect to the riot police again I would imagine.

I guess so.

Its the day that leftists-communist-anarchist are ''trying'' to fight with the rightists (meaning Police ) like the students did with Junta. In a fail way, but yes, most likely there will be some kind of riots.

[Fenlander]

How uncomfortable is it currently to be an immigrant in Greece? Is the right-wing becoming more popular? Greek jobs for Greek people, etc?

It could be a window into what will happen to the rest of Europe in the next few years.

[Queen B]

How uncomfortable is it currently to be an immigrant in Greece? Is the right-wing becoming more popular? Greek jobs for Greek people, etc?

It could be a window into what will happen to the rest of Europe in the next few years.

Not more uncomfortable for a Greek in Greece.

I haven't witness any difference from Greeks towards immigrants. Its the same.

Yes, right-wing is becaming more popular, but no for the ''Greek jobs for Greek people'' concept, but mostly due to criminality and ghettos.