Northern Greeks

[Renekton]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/7105b9339dd4a8515346a18ea6af17c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/4d2d94a8541f5adb25f32aeb90f4cc4e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/79d6cf756958d55a0ecd910f48460daa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/700e1d1a82966c5c3ab578a937fcf15c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/cc1a26e4d4f613e791c2ca4309429e3f.jpg

[Oliver109]

alpine meds

[axel.aleman]

Alpine Med, Pontid, Gracile Med

[Jana]

Super Balkanic look :)

[kevinmac]

They look more Argentinian than Balkan.

[Jana]

They look more Argentinian than Balkan.

Meds with moderate amerindian admixture look pseudo Balkanic.

[Cristiano viejo]

Pass in Spain. CONGRATULATIONS, Northern Greeks.

[Oliver109]

Pass in Spain. CONGRATULATIONS, Northern Greeks.

Lol, the boy in the last pic looks very very Spanish

[Cristiano viejo]

Lol, the boy in the last pic looks very very Spanish

Looks like French footballer Aymeric Laporte.

[Oliver109]

Looks like French footballer Aymeric Laporte.

Naa, hes more pinkish

[Cristiano viejo]

Naa, hes more pinkish

Only in your mind.

[Tooting Carmen]

Geography and genetics notwithstanding, to me they look at least equally similar to Iberians as to Balkan Slavs.

[Benyzero]

Corded nordid

[kingmob]

https://youtu.be/40Jt-XWuvnU


https://youtu.be/rnOmwg9JhXA




"Greeks" singing and dancing trad Bulgarian folk songs in the Bulgarian language?


https://i.ibb.co/TmBbprv/photofunny-net.gif

[Jana]

"Greeks" singing and dancing trad Bulgarian folk songs in the Bulgarian language?


https://i.ibb.co/TmBbprv/photofunny-net.gif

explains why they look so Balkan xD

[Jana]

Geography and genetics notwithstanding, to me they look at least equally similar to Iberians as to Balkan Slavs.

loool

[Russki]

Geography and genetics notwithstanding, to me they look at least equally similar to Iberians as to Balkan Slavs.


They are Balkan Slavs.

Wat nou?

[Jana]

They are Balkan Slavs.

Wat nou?

He's a terrible classifier, just like Oliver.

[Voskos]

...

Though Bulgarians themselves are Byzantine Greeks politically assimilated by proto-Bulgars and Slavs.to an extent.

It's a good thing they became Greeks again and ditched slavdom.

[Jana]

Though Bulgarians themselves are Byzantine Greeks politically assimilated by proto-Bulgars and Slavs.to an extent.

It's a good thing they became Greeks again and ditched slavdom.

It's a bullshit. Since when are Thracians Byzantine Greeks? And Byzantine Greeks included many different folk including Anatolians.
If they sing minorities songs and dances in their own language, than they are clearly not ethnic Greek.

[Voskos]

It's a bullshit. Since when are Thracians Byzantine Greeks? And Byzantine Greeks included many different folk including Anatolians.
If they sing minorities songs and dances in their own language, than they are clearly not ethnic Greek.

Ok then Byzantine Thracians. Still not Slavs or Bulgars.

Modern Greek identity itself is mostly Byzantine so Byzantine and modern Greek is one and the same thing. From a cultural perspective at least.

By the way if you're referring to genetics then non-Slavic Thracians are closer to the "ancients" than their their Slavic neighbours are.

By the second half of the 9th century, Bulgars and Slavs, and romanized or hellenized Thracians had lived together for almost two centuries and the numerous Slavs were well on the way to assimilating the Thracians and the Bulgars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire

If they sing minorities songs and dances in their own language, than they are clearly not ethnic Greek.

That's up to them to decide what they are on collective basis. Some Kurds speak Turkish or Arabic at home, does that make them Turks/Arabs?

[Creoda]

He's a terrible classifier, just like Oliver.
But he's opened 10,000 classification threads. He must be the foremost expert on the web, notwithstanding this minor error.

[Renekton]

Thanks guys. Some users here try desperately to portray all Greeks as Levantines. The images proved them wrong.

[Jana]

Ok then Byzantine Thracians. Still not Slavs or Bulgars.

I don't get your point. Bulgarians and Slavophone Macedonians are more pre-Slavic than early Slavic. Does that means they are Greek? lol


odern Greek identity itself is mostly Byzantine so Byzantine and modern Greek is one and the same thing. From a cultural perspective at least.

Thanks for info.


By the way if you're referring to genetics then non-Slavic Thracians are closer to the "ancients" than their their Slavic neighbours are.

That's up to them to decide what they are on collective basis. Some Kurds speak Turkish or Arabic at home, does that make them Turks/Arabs?

Thracians never bordered Slavs in the Balkans. Of course they were much closer to Greeks than Slavs, but how is that related?
Of course Paleo Balkanic people like Thracians will be much closer to ancient Greeks. But that doesn't mean they were Greek. Although they had lot of such influence.

Thing is, these people are obviously South Slavic minority in northern Greece, right?

They can be Greek citizens or even feel Greek (doubt why than would they preserve their folklore and language though), but whatever. We all know for massive Hellenization process of Balkanic minorities of northern Greece in recent past.

[kingmob]

People singing their folklore in 2022 in Bulgarian or any other language for that matter other than Greek, are clearly not Greek by any metric of ethnography, be it of antiquity, medieval or modern.

The people in the videos, both young and old, clearly value their Bulgarian or Slavic ethnography dear enough as to separate it so visibly from its Greek counterpart.

It would do them great disservice to label them ethnic Greek, even in its medieval Byzantine sense/version, when they obviously don't want to be that.

There are former Slavic speakers in Macedonia (East) who translated all their stuff in Greek because they want to leave their Bulgarian identity behind. This is obviously not the case with these people and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that.

[Renekton]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/139b15a8dc59ac242a130f587ade5c8d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/f9113316c73e7f19f9c376af86adc1ce.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/1bad6e672651b641b547489a7c7d1db1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/d1669b704c8daafd70b799099d18dfa9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220703/48621548135e4b3f19f43ffe3afc2db0.jpg


New pictures

[Voskos]

I don't get your point. Bulgarians and Slavophone Macedonians are more pre-Slavic than early Slavic. Does that means they are Greek? lol

That means if what you're saying is true, that they are former Byzantines who have been slavicized , possibly not always in a peaceful way.



But that doesn't mean they were Greek.

I said Byzantine Greek, in the sense that they were Byzantines. The same way modern Greeks identify as "Romios" and are called Rums/Rumi by many muslims without being Romans from Italy.


Thing is, these people are obviously South Slavic minority in northern Greece, right?
I don't see anything obvious other than Slavic irredentism in that story. Let me summarize:

These people went from being Greek-speaking Ancient Macedonians and Hellenized Byzantine Thracians to being politically assimilated by Bulgars and then finally by Slavic tribes who settled the region. Slavic is just the last that was imposed on them, and it's a result of early medieval waves of Central/ Eastern European immigrants who ended up becoming culturally dominant in most of the Balkans.


They can be Greek citizens or even feel Greek (doubt why than would they preserve their folklore and language though), but whatever. We all know for massive Hellenization process of Balkanic minorities of northern Greece in recent past.

The Hellenization has also affected Greek-speaking groups who lost their native dialects and replaced it with standard Greek. That still doesn't make them less Greek.

Your're talking about hellenization but slavs themselves are all slavicized to various degrees.

[JohnnyP]

The first pictures are from slavophone Macedonians

[catgeorge]

The first pictures are from slavophone Macedonians

No such thing - they are just Greek and identify as such. Tell them otherwise and they will roast you on a spit.

[catgeorge]

Popular dance amongst Sarakatsani from Macedonia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-N1LGMWdNw&ab_channel=Tragoudiaris

[kingmob]

Tell them otherwise and they will roast you on a spit.


I talk to them and ask them about their Bulgarian speech while I'm on my ethnographic road trips, they laugh uncomfortably, mumble something about it being their 'native tongue' and change the subject.

No spits roasted.

[Voskos]

I talk to them and ask them about their Bulgarian speech while I'm on my ethnographic road trips, they laugh uncomfortably, mumble something about it being their 'native tongue' and change the subject.

No spits roasted.

I served with one when I was a conscript. Half of his family were Skopjans, other half Greeks. Never did he claim to me he wasn't Greek, he just kept saying the Bulgarian komitatzis messed up the place. I also met Russo-Greeks, Vlachs, Romani, Arvanites from Peloponnisos, Korce Vlachs , Gagauz identifying as Greeks, recent Albanian immigrants, North Epirots, mixed Albanian-North Epirots, Pomaks etc etc.

The only ones that were not very convincing as Greek were the Pomaks.

[kingmob]

I served with one when I was a conscript. Half of his family were Skopjans, other half Greeks. Never did he claim to me he wasn't Greek, he just kept saying the Bulgarian komitatzis messed up the place. I also met Russo-Greeks, Vlachs, Romani, Arvanites from Peloponnisos, Korce Vlachs , Gagauz identifying as Greeks, recent Albanian immigrants, North Epirots, mixed Albanian-North Epirots, Pomaks etc etc.

The only ones that were not very convincing as Greek were the Pomaks.


They are usually closed and reserved to those they consider as outsiders to their ilk. It's hard to get them talking but I have my connections. I am not talking about the younger generations who mingled and can't even speak the entopika but about the more traditionalists like those in the videos, in Kastoria and Florina, etc. The user Renekton knows to whom I am referring.

I suggest you read Karakasidou's Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, for more on their ethnography, it really is a masterpiece of our times.

[Voskos]

...

Ok let me put this another way. I've seen in person an old Thracian from Adrianoupoli claim they're Turkish-speaking Rums that got linguistically (re)hellenized after the population exchange. They were also quite bitter about the whole issue of the Greek-Turkish conflict. To you are those Greeks or Turks?

We're probably talking about two different things here, or three different things: you're talking about the ethnic identity/ national consciousness of the slavophone villages, Feiichy is talking about genetic ancestry and I'm talking about history and the politics of the region. To me personally genetics isn't a factor to be taken into account, especially when talking about neighbouring populations. You might have a point concerning the consciousness of some of these people but the reality doesn't change. The place was Byzantine and only became slavic after the slavic migrations.

And the slavicization of the Balkans is ongoing (supported by external factors as well), often with the help of so called "academics" and their politically correct narratives.

Let me give another example.
At some point there must've been parts of Crete that were fully Turkish , if the borders between countries had to follow self-identification of whatever settler shows up, then Greece has no future.

With such a mentality Greeks are gonna be as rare as Indians in the US.

[kingmob]

snip


I think you misunderstand me.

I also don't believe in genetic barriers that have strict cut-offs, regardless of some of my posts where I counter-used such arguments in order to show the local Greek anthrotards how ridiculous their narrative of a supposed racial-purity really is.

However, you can easily draw lines around ethnographic continuums even inside former imperial spaces, based on language, music, cultural practices and notions of self-determination.

The people in those videos have very visible differences to the rest of the Greek ethnographic continuum, that spans from Crete all the way to the northern borders of the country (mostly due to settled Anatolian Greeks in the latter); they don't use the same musical instruments, their music follows different tempos and variations, same with their dances, and obviously we have the issue of their language that they hold so dear that they managed to salvage through the onslaught of Metaxian canonization. They are closer to Bulgarians rather than to Cretans in every metric possible, and it's through their own choice entirely. Pontics, on the other hand, have much more strikingly closer similarities to Cretans in their ethnography, see where I am going with this?

Furthermore, historically, Thrace was always a much more solid Greek (or Byzantine Greek if you like) bastion compared to Macedonia (with the exception of the city of Thessaloniki), so I don't think your example is very apt. Every time the Byzantines reconquered Macedonia from the Bulgarians, they resettled Anatolians there in order to solidify the Byzantine hold. The same Anatolians that, even today, the resident Greek anthrotards consider as foreign presence in their 'native space', calling them Armenians or w/e, like this is supposed to be a curse word or something, not taking into account the simple historical truth that has Armenians contributing with settlers, soldiers, and even emperors and generals (a list that includes both Basil II and Nikephoros Phokas) during Byzantium's most glorious periods. So taking this line of argument to its logical extreme, if Greek speakers (from Anatolia) are considered foreigners and the Bulgarian speaking entopioi are considered as the natives, then who is really the one giving Macedonia away? Certainly not me, that's for sure.

That's all, and since you mention it, I do consider Turks (not all, but some of them) as the closest ethnographic and cultural relative to modern Greece.

[catgeorge]

I talk to them and ask them about their Bulgarian speech while I'm on my ethnographic road trips, they laugh uncomfortably, mumble something about it being their 'native tongue' and change the subject.

No spits roasted.

The Sarakatsani from Bulgaria have suffered Slavisation for over 100 years they will never yield. As for my family don't know one word of Bulgarian nor Turkish nor Albanian. Does this make you feel better?

[kingmob]

The Sarakatsani from Bulgaria have suffered Slavisation for over 100 years they will never yield. As for my family don't know one word of Bulgarian nor Turkish nor Albanian. Does this make you feel better?


Dude, no one mentioned the Karakachans in the context of Macedonia, you can calm down now.

Your people barely measured 80K or so in your heydays, you are hardly relevant in this discourse.

[gixajo]

I also see them very similar to the Spanish. :picard1:

[JohnnyP]

No such thing - they are just Greek and identify as such. Tell them otherwise and they will roast you on a spit.
Yeah sure :rolleyes: they speak "Greek" because they must to, but they identify themself like slavophone Macedonians , I guess greeks are singing and dancing Makedonsko Devojce ? Raspukala Sar Planian , Zemjo Makedonska , Ubava Kalina od Pirin Planinaa or Velat ne Nema and many other Macedonian songs on the following videos ? :D :D They have Macedonian gathering once or twice in a year ,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FaHDifiHU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FaHDifiHU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFVF7s03M1U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuTzCKvz3bg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei4aoY2mFrI


Cheers!

[catgeorge]

Yeah sure :rolleyes: they speak "Greek" because they must to, but they identify themself like slavophone Macedonians , I guess greeks are singing and dancing Makedonsko Devojce ? Raspukala Sar Planian , Zemjo Makedonska , Ubava Kalina od Pirin Planinaa or Velat ne Nema and many other Macedonian songs on the following videos ? :D :D They have Macedonian gathering once or twice in a year ,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FaHDifiHU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FaHDifiHU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFVF7s03M1U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuTzCKvz3bg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei4aoY2mFrI


Cheers!

They have nothing to do with you - they dont have Avar - Cuman - Chink features you people have

[catgeorge]

Dude, no one mentioned the Karakachans in the context of Macedonia, you can calm down now.

Your people barely measured 80K or so in your heydays, you are hardly relevant in this discourse.

Unlike Caucasians we dont go around saying we are this much or that much we dont know nor do we care. Sarakatsani page on facebook where only verified Sarakatsani are members and heavily moderated numbers 200k+ from memmory.

Not saying this is the true number its just many people in mainland Greece identify with Sarakatsani.

[kingmob]

Unlike Caucasians we dont go around saying we are this much or that much we dont know nor do we care. Sarakatsani page on facebook where only verified Sarakatsani are members and heavily moderated numbers 200k+ from memmory.

Not saying this is the true number its just many people in mainland Greece identify with Sarakatsani.

The 80K number comes from the official 50s census, your Facebook numbers can only be considered as a joke, citing outdated social media platforms, smh.


Your kind was always a fringe nomadic shepherd group of no economic, historical or cultural significance, deal with it. You are mostly known for making barely passable cheese for Macedonian standards.

So I suggest you calm down and take it down a notch, no one cares about your insignificant goat herder heritage.

[kingmob]

continuation of above post because of forum posting problems:

And stop acting like you are some sort of gatekeeper of Hellenism, the descendant of Leonidas and Pericles or w/e.

You can barely speak the Greek language, I know 1st gen Pakistani migrants who work the peach fields that can speak a thousand times better than you, you are merely just another self-exiled migrant blue collar grunt of the Anglo world, serving your disgusting greasy glop to your Anglo masters and acting like you have a clue on what's happening here, 9K miles away from you.

Macedonia is economically and politically ruled by Pontics/Anatolians and Vlachs (50/50ish split between the two depending on the area), any decent economic growth and activity being entirely the work of the former rather than latter, Anatolians owning all the high-profile suburbs/towns and economic enterprises, your kind is long gone and dusted, annihilated by time and tide due to its insignificance.

In this thread, we are discussing the Bulgarian speakers of Macedonia, to whom I have a sympathy for, by the way, so there's no need for you to constantly inject your useless shepherd kind in every single discussion. You have more important stuff to do, like go clean the grease off your tables.

[Renekton]

Sheppards are brave warriors.

Take example Mani, Agrafa and Soyli never conquered by the Ottomans

[JohnnyP]

They have nothing to do with you - they dont have Avar - Cuman - Chink features you people have


Hahaha , you are so butthurt , yes they have , they are Macedonians our brothers.

[kingmob]

Sheppards are brave warriors.

Take example Mani, Agrafa and Soyli never conquered by the Ottomans


Are you sure you want to go down that historical path?

Like sure sure?

If not, stop writing such nonsense.

[Renekton]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news247.gr/elliniki-epanastasi-1821/poso-emeine-periochi-elladas-kato-apo-othomaniko-zygo.6706093.amp.html

Αντίθετα δεν υποδουλώθηκαν ποτέ τα Επτάνησα που βρίσκονταν την συγκεκριμένη περίοδο υπό τον έλεγχο Ιταλών και Γάλλων, η Μάνη και τα Σφακιά τα οποία όμως πλήρωναν φόρο υποτέλειας στην Πύλη.

[Renekton]

Οι Τούρκοι προσπαθούσαν μάταια για καιρό να υποτάξουν τους Σουλιώτες. Το Σούλι, απέχοντας 20 χιλιόμετρα από τη θάλασσα, μπορούσε να προμηθεύεται χρήματα, όπλα και πυρομαχικά, τα οποία έστελναν από τα Επτάνησα οι ξένες δυνάμεις κάθε φορά που συγκρούονταν με τηνΥψηλή Πύλη.

https://www.gnoristetinellada.gr/anadromes/24-ipeiros/6078-soyli-mia-istoria-forou-timis-kai-aimatos

[kingmob]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news247.gr/elliniki-epanastasi-1821/poso-emeine-periochi-elladas-kato-apo-othomaniko-zygo.6706093.amp.html

Αντίθετα δεν υποδουλώθηκαν ποτέ τα Επτάνησα που βρίσκονταν την συγκεκριμένη περίοδο υπό τον έλεγχο Ιταλών και Γάλλων, η Μάνη και τα Σφακιά τα οποία όμως πλήρωναν φόρο υποτέλειας στην Πύλη.


Let's see,

Ionian islands and parts of Crete being under control of Euros but still paying tribute, check. Nothing to do with acts of "bravery" on their part.

Souliotes getting BTFO'ed by Ali Pasha and forced to flee/submit in 1803, check. The remainders blowing themselves up in Kougi.

Thessaliotes BTFO'ed by Larissa Pasha Mahmut Dramalis in 1821 and only rejoining the Kingdom of Greece much later in 1881, check.

Maniotes and the entirety of the Peloponnese BTFO'ed by the Ottoman/Egyptian counter-revolutionary forces of Ibrahim in 1826, check.

In fact, the only reason the Greek Revolutionaries managed to secure their independence is due to the destruction of the entirety of the Ottoman fleet in 1827 by the combined forces of the Russian and British fleets and the obligation of the Ottomans to recognize the Greek Kingdom with the Treaty of Adrianopolis of 1829 to the Russians after the victory of the latter in their in-between-them war. Without that Russian military victory there is not Greek independence.

And finally, as a personal historical comment, the reason places like Mani were left relatively alone while under Ottoman rule, is because they consisted of the most backwater, poor and retarded parts of the empire, nothing to do with bravery or fearsomeness. No one literally gave a fuck about them and their constant in-bickering and petty civil wars, as long as they paid their taxes and tributes, which they did.

OK?

[JohnnyP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDTBbywb4NI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQh3A3_NvjQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKUjgX64sOQ

[kingmob]

snip


https://youtu.be/_SoM5sgQtME


Your guys need lessons in Pontic dances/music asap, but more power to them for their heartwarming gesture.

Salutations!

:thumb001:

[Renekton]

At least the backward subhumans as you call them had the guts to take up the arms to fight the Turks.

The Anatolian Greeks what they doing back in that days?


Why didn't the Asia Minor Greeks rebel?

Geopolitical and geostrategic reasons prevented the development of a revolutionary movement on the territory of Asia Minor. Even on the western shores of Ionia, despite the fact that the Greek element was numerous there, the surroundings of the Greek cities are a continuation of the vast Turkish-dominated hinterland, from where it is easy to strike with lightning and effectively any attempt at rebellion. Of course, for the expatriate populations of central Asia Minor and Cappadocia, who were a small minority within the more numerous Turkish element, any revolutionary struggle was impossible.
Although I should emphasize that they helped the Greeks of Greece with money and with men.

https://mikrasiatis.gr/i-mikra-asia-stin-epanastasi-tou-1821-i-symvoli-ton-mikrasiaton-ston-ethniko-agona/

[JohnnyP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnOmwg9JhXA

[kingmob]

subhumans



I've never called anyone "subhuman" and never will. This vocabulary is part of your group's vernacular not mine.

The rest of your post is indifferent in scope and opinion, sorry.

Back to the Bulgarian speakers of Macedonia.

[Renekton]

sorry.

Back to the Macedonians


I'm not getting off topic at all. You started saying that they are slackers, backwards and stuff like that.

As far as the topic I opened was purely for anthropological purpose.
When someone opens a thread about Northern Greeks some users here chimping out. It's hilarious.

Back to Macedonians then.

[kingmob]

snip

Don't misquote me again.

And stop using such vile racist lingo, "chimping out".

[Renekton]

@Moderators close the thread.

Very off topic comments here.

The OP was just for anthropological purposes.