Guess the location of David Reich’s proposed 'Southern Arc'

[Guti]

Just a few weeks left before the first of the 3 ground-breaking papers will come out.
According to David Reich the 'Southern Arc' was a place where the first stage PIEans came from. It was the initial homeland of the earliest proto-Indo-European peoples that later on Indo-Europeanized many people in Europe and Asia.


First of all, I don't know anything about the papers. So at this moment nobody can be right or wrong. It is just a guess. But with my current knowledge about population genetics I can make somehow an educated guess.


After studying the Yamnaya DNA my first guess would be that the 'Southern Arc' has to be located on the eastern side of West Asia. That means that I am ruling the Levant and Anatolia out.

The next step for me to determine the PIEan URHEIMAT is was it in north parts, in the eastern parts or somewhere at the centre of the Eastern West Asia.

All data are pointing out that early stage PIEan people were heavy on a 'Gedrosia' (Caucaso-iranic) component with some minor Anatolia/Levantine influence. That means that I am ruling out the location of the 'Southern Arc' somewhere in the Caucasus.

The only 3 locations that are left are in the Upper Mesopotamia (Southern Kurdistan around Lalish), Northwestern Iran and the northern/central Zagros Mountains.


If I have to choice between those 3, my first chose would be

1. Northcentral Zagros Mountain range. Kurdish Soran areas to the south of Lake Urmia, maybe even close to the Luristan


My second choice would be:

2. an area in the Upper Mesopotamia around Lalish (centre of the Yezidism)


3rd option would be

3 Northwestern Iran around southwestern Caspian Sea coast. Not far from Gilan province of Iran.


https://i.postimg.cc/HLTDGcrD/southern-arc.jpg

[Guti]

You don't have to agree with Reich, but where do you think his location of the 'Southern Arc' will be?

[Guti]

If we have to believe professor Gordon Whittaker of Georg-August-Universität Göttingen the 'Southern Arc' is located in the Mesopotamia! (my 2nd choice)


If the alleged pre-Sumerian population in Mesopotamia was indeed Indo-European, then it stands to revolutionize our perception of very early Indo-European society, since its ancestors must have migrated prior to the domestication of the horse. All evidence suggests that they settled in the region as 'peaceful agriculturalists' no different in character from other societies of the Ancient Near East. Although it would be the earliest known Indo-European society by well over a thousand years, it seems in other respects surprisingly familiar.

https://rootsofeurope.ku.dk/english/calendar/archive_2009/euphratic/

[Voskos]

The broader region encompassing the Caucasus-Caspian-Pakistan/Northwestern India. Just guessing here.

[Guti]

Interesting, I have thought a little bit about that in the past and it might be indeed possible that the 'Southern Arc' was connected to a Jiroft culture, like an ancestor to Jiroft.

[Awuddah]

Are you from that red circle by chance?
You sound like you've got skin in the game.

[Guti]

No, some of my ancestors are outside any circle, closer to Lake Wan and Armenia.
Some are from a blue circle.

[Halgurd]

I would say in between your first and second choice, the Hakkari-Urmia region - or perhaps both choices combined. Could explain the Kurgan stelae that was discovered in Hakkari.

[Guti]

As far as I know the Kurgan stelae in Hakkari were not that old and might be more related to the Cimmerians who came thousands of years after the PIEan people.

Personally I do prefer red above blue because red has more elevated Cauacaso-Iranic (Gedrosia) ancestry, while blue has a little bit more Caucaso-Anatolian/Levantine ancestry.


https://i.postimg.cc/x1T1CHwR/Yamnaya.jpg

[kingmob]

I'd say the 2nd choice.



https://youtu.be/ULKAieLf0oY

[Zoro]

I’m going to go with where Eurasian DNA has it marked as the “lesser Caucasus” mountains being southern arc and “greater caucasus” mountains being northern arc

https://eurasiandna.com/

[Guti]

Interesting point. It is one of the biggest contenders indeed. It is also located not far from the Steppe Maykop.

https://i.postimg.cc/9XD4Jqbz/FE8-D7-A2-C-FAF9-4579-8-C51-576-E6644844-E.jpg

Steppe Maykop
https://i.postimg.cc/qvFnkX1f/steppe.jpg

[Guti]

I read an intro to the lecture by David Reich one more time and according to the outtake Armenia and northwest Iran were both part of the Southern Arc, and that Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc.

Therefore we have to rule out the republic of Armenia, since it was most likely the western wing of the Southern Arc.


A striking signal of steppe migration into the Southern Arc is evident in Armenia and northwest Iran where admixture with Yamnaya patrilineal descendants occurred, coinciding with their 3rd millennium BCE displacement from the steppe itself. This ancestry, pervasive across numerous sites of Armenia of ~2000-600 BCE, was diluted during the ensuing centuries to only a third of its peak value, making no further western inroads from there into any part of Anatolia, including the geographically adjacent Lake Van center of the Iron Age Kingdom of Urartu. The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal.

https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture


By the way, they will also discuss the Trialeti culture and how it was linked to the Yamnaya. They will also write something about the Yamnaya and Trialeti patrilineal descendants in Armenia and Northwestern Iran.

[Kaazi]

Just a few weeks left before the first of the 3 ground-breaking papers will come out.
According to David Reich the 'Southern Arc' was a place where the first stage PIEans came from. It was the initial homeland of the earliest proto-Indo-European peoples that later on Indo-Europeanized many people in Europe and Asia.


First of all, I don't know anything about the papers. So at this moment nobody can be right or wrong. It is just a guess. But with my current knowledge about population genetics I can make somehow an educated guess.


After studying the Yamnaya DNA my first guess would be that the 'Southern Arc' has to be located on the eastern side of West Asia. That means that I am ruling the Levant and Anatolia out.

The next step for me to determine the PIEan URHEIMAT is was it in north parts, in the eastern parts or somewhere at the centre of the Eastern West Asia.

All data are pointing out that early stage PIEan people were heavy on a 'Gedrosia' (Caucaso-iranic) component with some minor Anatolia/Levantine influence. That means that I am ruling out the location of the 'Southern Arc' somewhere in the Caucasus.

The only 3 locations that are left are in the Upper Mesopotamia (Southern Kurdistan around Lalish), Northwestern Iran and the northern/central Zagros Mountains.


If I have to choice between those 3, my first chose would be

1. Northcentral Zagros Mountain range. Kurdish Soran areas to the south of Lake Urmia, maybe even close to the Luristan


My second choice would be:

2. an area in the Upper Mesopotamia around Lalish (centre of the Yezidism)


3rd option would be

3 Northwestern Iran around southwestern Caspian Sea coast. Not far from Gilan province of Iran.


https://i.postimg.cc/HLTDGcrD/southern-arc.jpg

Hi Guti,

I got confused by this theory. Some layman questions. I believe on David Reich's works. But then how did EHG originate in NW Iran? or is it that EHG passed thru Caucasus and mixed with CHG females in North Iran to form the PIE culture?? Caucasus Mts. should've been a good natural barrier??

Is the IE pathway into South Asia same as the previous Kurgan theories?? Does that "Greco-Armeno-Aryan sth" linguistic branch hold in this?

[Guti]

Hi Guti,

I got confused by this theory. Some layman questions. I believe on David Reich's works. But then how did EHG originate in NW Iran? or is it that EHG passed thru Caucasus and mixed with CHG females in North Iran to form the PIE culture?? Caucasus Mts. should've been a good natural barrier??
EHG is not that old and it is a mixture of many more ancient components such as WHG, ANE, SHG, CHG/Iran_N etc.

But according to David Reich there were at least 2 distinct gene flows into Yamnaya, both from West Asia. So, that means that there was already some CHG in the Yamnaya Horizon before a second gene flow from the 'Southern Arc' changed the language of the Steppes.


the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lectur

The eastern corridor of the Caucasus Mountains is easy to pass



Is the IE pathway into South Asia same as the previous Kurgan theories??Yes and no. Most of the Steppe ancestry in South Asia arrived around 1500BC. TRUE

But it is possible that people in SouthCentral Asia (and BMAC) have already spoken an Indo-European dialect before the arrival of new people from the Steppes.

So there are two schools. 1st school says that people in Northern India already have spoken a some type of an Indo-European dialect even before the Steppe migration around 1500BC.
Another school is saying that it were the Steppe people (derived from Yamnaya) who brought Indo-Aryan/Vedic language into South Asia around 1500BC.

[Guti]

Is the IE pathway into South Asia same as the previous Kurgan theories?? Does that "Greco-Armeno-Aryan sth" linguistic branch hold in this?
Watch from min 22:10 what Reich is telling us about Sintashta and Andronovo cultures. According to him Sintashta had some EEF ancestry that he didn't find in India. Therefore he is actually ruling out that there was a real direct Sintashta or Andronovo migration into India.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ybYxg2vHE

[Guti]

I think Reich got some DNA samples from these Kurgans in Northwest Iran, from Late Chalcolithic to Iron Age

https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/files/2021/03/Map-1-scaled.jpg

https://archeorient.hypotheses.org/15823



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMUE7gmKafc

[Guti]

The first group is composed of kurgans with circular revetments around their graves and with their grave bordered by a stone pile. The builders of these kurgans first established a circular ring around the grave, sometimes marked with a sloping ring of rubble stone, in one to three courses of stones of varying sizes built around the outer perimeter of the kurgan (fig. 1). At the center of this circle there is a small and low pile of rubble set in clay in two to three courses height (Muscarella, 1971: 23).

Kurgans of this type are characteristic of the Late Chalcolithic periods in Iran, Georgia, and Armenia, and are associated with the Maikop culture regarding the structure of kurgan itself as well as the axes heads discovered in them. Although so far only one necropolis of this type has been excavated in Sé Girdan in Iran, its specific structural characteristics led me to place it in a specific group. Sé Girdan is the southernmost region where kurgans have been reported.


Se Girdan kurgans are located on the south shore of Lake Urmia. Some of them were excavated in 1968 and 1970 by O. Muscarella. They have now been redated to the second half of the 4th millennium, although originally they were thought to be much younger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Urmia

[Guti]

Se Girdan kurgans are located on the south shore of Lake Urmia. Some of them were excavated in 1968 and 1970 by O. Muscarella. They have now been redated to the second half of the 4th millennium, although originally they were thought to be much younger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_UrmiaSo at this moment my 1st choice of the location of the eastern wing of the 'Southern Arc' stands: to the south of Lake Urmia.

[Mark76]

Still can't get over the fact that Turkey is home to Batman :D

[papa diddy pop]

Man, Reich will make me believe in jewish conspiracy theories with all the bullshit statement he made with all his pro wog delusional propaganda. Now i'm going to watch some Moonman videos to wash my eyes of all the bullshits I just read.

[Voskos]

@Guti,

Here in A (image from an old paper) you can see the genetic variance of R1b M269 , it peaks in the eastern part of Turkey/fertile crescent /Kurdish/Assyrian lands (frequency as we know it peaks in the Western part of Europe).

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Levon-Yepiskoposyan-2/publication/269179016/figure/fig6/AS:272653160284166@1442016987153/Geographical-distribution-maps-of-haplogroup-frequencies-and-genetic-variances-V-P.png

[Guti]

Still can't get over the fact that Turkey is home to Batman :DBatman is a ridiculous Turkic name Turks gave to that village not a long time ago. Original Kurdic name for that Kurdish village is Êlih.

[Guti]

@Guti,

Here in A (image from an old paper) you can see the genetic variance of R1b M269 , it peaks in the eastern part of Turkey/fertile crescent /Kurdish/Assyrian lands (frequency as we know it peaks in the Western part of Europe).

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Levon-Yepiskoposyan-2/publication/269179016/figure/fig6/AS:272653160284166@1442016987153/Geographical-distribution-maps-of-haplogroup-frequencies-and-genetic-variances-V-P.pngAccording to some previous studies Y-DNA hg. R1b* (R-M343*) peaks in a Kurdish population that was deported to Kazakhstan.

The population believed to have the highest proportion of R-M343 (xM73, M269, V88) are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/


I know that there is some native R-M269* (R1b-M269*) in Northwestern Asia, but I think that Reich will hint that most of the R-M269 arrived in Armenia, Kurdistan and Western Iran as back migration from Yamnaya via a Trialeti culture (Armenia/Caucasus_EMBA).


In addition, the variance distribution of the rare R1b-M269* Y chromosomes, displaying decreasing values from Iran, Anatolia and the western Black Sea coastal region, is also suggestive of a westward diffusion from the Iranian plateau, although more complex scenarios can be still envisioned because of its non-star like structure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399854/

[Guti]

Don't get me wrong, R-M343* and R-M269* are clearly just a few examples that indicate that there were already some Y-DNA hg. R1b lineages in Armenia, Western Iran, Kurdistan before Yamnaya, but some R1b lineages in those areas can be linked to Yamnaya/Trialeti and the presence of some of those lineages can be seen as a result of back migration.

[Guti]

Also, don't ignore mtDNA.


24% of the Yamnaya mtDNA was hg. H. It was the most frequent mtDNA lineage in the Yamnaya steppes: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml#Y-DNA_mtDNA

MtDNA hg. H. is also the most major mtDNA in Kurds and its distribution in Kurds is 37.1%.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/MtDNA-haplogroup-frequencies-in-the-Kurdish-groups_tbl2_295667105
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15996169/


Recent study shows that the frequency of mtDNA hg. H found among the Sorani Kurds in Sulaymaniyah city is up to 41.6% and that Soran areas of Kurdistan are actually the source place of mtDNA hg. H in Europe!

Whole mitochondrial DNA sequencing in 36 healthy residents of Sulaymaniyah city revealed Western Eurasian 8 haplogroups dominated by H with a strongly negative Tajima's D value indicating a closer genetic relation of the city residents to the European lineage.

https://ejfs.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s41935-021-00246-2

[Guti]

Russel Gray (Bayesian phylolinguistic model) estimates the whole Indo-European language family at the age of 8100 years.

Watch it from min 27:20.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGML2mMAaEI

[Guti]

3 main cultures of the Southern Arc at that time were Hassuna culture to the west of Mesopotamia, Jarmo culture to the east of Kurdistan and Shulaveri–Shomu culture to the north between Northwestern Iran and the Caucasus.

There was an extensive network of trade between those cultures. Raw materials like obsidian and metal were one of those products that were traded.


There is a recent study about the extensive network of trade between those cultures: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.12660


Recent archaeological research has highlighted the potential role of mobile pastoral groups in the diffusion of raw materials and technological innovations between the southern Caucasus and north-western Iran from the Neolithic onwards.

By focusing on the exploitation of obsidian at multiple levels—local, regional and interregional—we hope to unravel the complexity of the obsidian networks under study.

The Caucasus, at the crossroads of the Eurasian steppes, Anatolia, Iran and Mesopotamia (Fig. 1), is a region characterized by abundant natural resources—salt, metal ores, water and pasturelands—which developed as a focal point for mobile pastoral communities from the Early Chalcolithic onwards, and perhaps even earlier (Marro 2019). Intense volcanic activity in this area produced numerous obsidian outcrops, more than 20 of which have been identified so far (Fig. 1). Between the Palaeolithic and the Iron Age, most of these outcrops provided relatively accessible, high-quality obsidian for the production of a large variety of tools and weapons (Badalyan et al. 2004). Obsidian had indeed a crucial role in the daily life of Prehistoric groups; consequently, it was widely circulated. Owing to its geochemical signature, its distribution is used as an excellent proxy for the study of past circulation networks and exchange systems (Torrence 1986), and the identification of economic hubs and ‘communities of practice’ (Carter 2014). In the long run, it may also be a useful tool for analysing overarching social structures and political processes (e.g., Moutsiou 2014).

the Southern Arc
https://i.postimg.cc/02dyj3yd/arcm12660-fig-0001-m.jpg


Tools and weapons made of obsidian. PIEan people fought with those primitive weapons.

https://i.postimg.cc/C5vBZQFK/2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/ZKMv4277/3.png
https://i.postimg.cc/cHB8WJ2w/1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Gp0BsY1v/4.jpg

[Guti]

Russel Gray (Bayesian phylolinguistic model) estimates the whole Indo-European language family at the age of 8100 years.8100 years ago fits perfectly with the 'southern' migration of the first stage PIEans into the (northern) Caucasus. There was a huge migration from the 'south' into the Maykop Horizon before 5000 BCE. It is most likely that the people from the 'south' brought some Western Iranic paternal lineages (like Y-DNA hg. L, hg. J1 etc.) into the Maykop Horizon. Later on Maykop people gave shape and Indo-Europeanised the people who later became known as the second stage PIEan Yamnaya people. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/322347v1.full


Furthermore, this is what Iosif Lazaridis said years ago about the 3-way mixture model.


I just wanted to leave a brief comment that the model of Steppe_EMBA as a mixture of EHG+CHG is rejected (Table S7.11), while that of EHG+Iran_ChL is not. Note that in Table S7.11 we are modeling Steppe_EMBA and the references with respect to 13 outgroup populations (the set O9ALNW), not all of which are included in the TreeMix graph.

... As we mention further down, that doesn't mean there is no CHG-related ancestry in Steppe_EMBA as we can model it as a 3-way mixture involving CHG as one of the sources. What it does mean, however, is that CHG+EHG cannot be the only sources, as this model is rejected (Table S7.11).

… Overall, our admixture analysis rejects several possible models (such as EHG+CHG) and thus puts constraints on what may have happened, and also proposes some models that are more resilient to rejection (such as EHG+Iran_ChL+CHG).

eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/yamnaya-eastern-hunter-gatherers-iran.html


The Caucasus, an area that today includes parts of Russia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Iran and Turkey, is a crucial intersection for the history of Europe, both genetically and culturally. Today it is one of the regions of the world with the highest linguistic diversity, and in the past, populations from the Caucasus were instrumental in shaping the genetic components of today's Europeans.

"We assume that in the wake of the Neolithic period, sometime before 5,000 BC when a more sedentary lifestyle with domesticated animals and plants was established, populations from the southern Caucasus spread over the mountains to the north and there met with nomadic populations from the Eurasian steppe," says Dr. Wolfgang Haak, group leader for molecular anthropology at the MPI-SHH and leader of the study.

Over the centuries, an interaction zone was formed, where the traditions of the Mesopotamian civilization and those of the Caucasus met with the cultures of the steppe.

The current paleogenetic study paints a more nuanced picture of mobility during the Bronze Age. People with a distinct southern Caucasus ancestry were already north of the mountain ridges by the 5th millennium BC. It is highly likely that these groups formed the basis for the local Early Bronze Age Maykop culture of the 4th millennium BC. Intriguingly, the Maykop individuals tested are genetically distinct from the groups in the adjacent steppes to the north.

"The genetic results do not support scenarios of large-scale migrations from the south during the Maykop period, or even from the northwest, as was postulated by some archaeologists. These findings have major implications for our understanding of the local development of North Caucasus cultures in the 4th millennium BC," explains Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. Svend Hansen, Director of the DAI's Eurasia-Department.

https://www.technologynetworks.com/genomics/news/the-caucasus-complex-interplay-of-genes-and-cultures-314933

The massive population shifts in the 3rd millennium BC, in connection with the expansion of the groups from the steppe who were part of what is known as the Yamnaya culture, have long been associated with the transfer of significant technological innovations from Mesopotamia to Europe. Recent studies at the DAI's Eurasia department on the spread of early wagons or metal weapons have shown, however, that an intensive exchange between Europe, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia began much earlier.

https://www.shh.mpg.de/1196995/pr-caucasus-haak

[kingmob]

There's a rumor circulating that there's going to be 16 new samples from IRN-Hasanlu that are R1b-Z2103 and 0% EHG.

Maybe L584s like F38?

Friday can't come quickly enough.

[Guti]

Hasanlu Tepe is a very special place because it is on a crossroad between the Mesopotamia, the Iranian Plateau and Transcaucasia. The Zagros Mountains is seen by some authors as a continuation of the Caucasus Mountain range.
Hasanlu Tepe belongs to the Upper Mesopotamia, Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau at the same time.
This is why this area is my 1st choice of being the URHEIMAT of the PIEans.

I think that Y-DNA hg. R1b and hg. R1a* entered Kurdistan/Iranian Plateu with the ANE people thousands of years ago.


Hasanlu Tepe was the homeland of the Gutians and later their successors the Medes. Also proto-Kurdic identity was born in that region, so it is the URHEIMANT of the Kurds in general. Nowadays it is the home of the Sorani Kurds of Kurdistan.

[Halgurd]

Hasanlu Tepe is a very special place because it is on a crossroad between the Mesopotamia, the Iranian Plateau and Transcaucasia. The Zagros Mountains is seen by some authors as a continuation of the Caucasus Mountain range.
Hasanlu Tepe belongs to the Upper Mesopotamia, Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau at the same time.
This is why this area is my 1st choice of being the URHEIMAT of the PIEans.

I think that Y-DNA hg. R1b and hg. R1a* entered Kurdistan/Iranian Plateu with the ANE people thousands of years ago.


Hasanlu Tepe was the homeland of the Gutians and later their successors the Medes. Also proto-Kurdic identity was born in that region, so it is the URHEIMANT of the Kurds in general. Nowadays it is the home of the Sorani Kurds of Kurdistan.

Summarises my current position. Hasanlu is located next to my great grandmother’s village - just a short walk.

[Ratmir]

So Kurds are now supposed to be proto-Indo-Europeans? No way, you've got to be kidding.

[Guti]

Summarises my current position. Hasanlu is located next to my great grandmother’s village - just a short walk.Keep in mind that the Ezdi Kurds have by far more R1b than R1a. And the Ezdi Kurds are one of those Kurds who mixed the least with other non-Kurdic people.
Ezdi Kurds are in general are actually hg. J2a and hg. R1b people. The most interesting thing is that while I am an Ezdi Kurds and Kurmanji with most of my roots from Northern Kurdistan and share most alleles with other Kurmanji Kurds, I do plot closer to the Sorani Kurds and even Lori Kurds.
One of the explanations why I plot closer to the Sorani Kurds than to the Kurmanji Kurds is that Kurmanji Kurds are a little bit more shifted toward Anatolia, most likely as a result of mixing with the Armenians or something, while Sorani Kurds mixed less with other races than the Kurmanji Kurds.


I think some Y-DNA lineages like hg. R1a-Z94 in Kurdistan are a very young phenomenon and arrived with the Parthians who were mixed with the Scythians themselves.


I am convinced that proto-Western Iranics who were ancestral to the Medes had also a lot Y-DNA hg. R1b among them. Ezdi Kurds and other NorthWestern Iranics such as Talysh have also more hg. R1b than hg. R1a.


Conclusion:

The Medes: J2a, R1b, R2a, G2a, with some minor R1a* etc
Parthians and Scythians: similar as the Medes but with much more extra R1a-Z94 in them.

[Halgurd]

So Kurds are now supposed to be proto-Indo-Europeans? No way, you've got to be kidding.

No, we just live in the proto-indo-european homeland and probably have retained some of that original ancestry. It’s no surprise that the oldest reference to the Kurds is founded on a Sumerian clay tablet dated to the third millennium BC.

[Ratmir]

No, we just live in the proto-indo-european homeland and probably have retained some of that original ancestry. It’s no surprise that the oldest reference to the Kurds is founded on a Sumerian clay tablet dated to the third millennium BC.
For me PIE means Steppe. You Kurds are low Steppe people and don't look North European at all. Only Armenians are even less Steppe.

[Guti]

For me PIE means Steppe. You Kurds are low Steppe people and don't look North European at all. Only Armenians are even less Steppe.Kurds are closely related to the Mesopotamia. Kurds are also the Irn_Chl people and one of the people who plot very close to the ancient CHG people. I plot closer to the ancient CHG people than the native (northern) Caucasians themselves, such as Chechens.

That the Kurds are closer to the ancient PIEans is by far more likely than so called Eastern Europeans. Why? Because we Kurds are connected to the Upper Mesopotamia, Caucasus and the Iranian Plateau. We are at the centre of the ancient civilisations so to speak.

Original PIEan people were not Northern Europeans in the first place and didn't look like them.

[NSXD60]

Another non-White fantasy of their peeps being closer to PIEs genetically than the early Tarim mummies or the Hermitage Museum Scythians, etc, et al; and even self-hating Whites like Colin Renfrew were downplaying PIEs being White until genetic science made them apologize for their woke mistake. Out of India, out of Kurdopotamia = out of your asses.

[Halgurd]

Another non-White fantasy of their peeps being closer to PIEs genetically than the early Tarim mummies or the Hermitage Museum Scythians, etc, et al; and even self-hating Whites like Colin Renfrew were downplaying PIEs being White until genetic science made them apologize for their woke mistake. Out of India, out of Kurdopotamia = out of your asses.

:picard1:

Have you even read the abstract? This has nothing to do with being “white” which is a socially constructed term. Get your head out of your ass.

[Halgurd]

For me PIE means Steppe. You Kurds are low Steppe people and don't look North European at all. Only Armenians are even less Steppe.

Kurds have about 20% steppe related ancestry along with other Indo-Iranians. PIE has nothing to do with Northern Europe.

[Ratmir]

Kurds are closely related to the Mesopotamia. Kurds are also the Irn_Chl people and one of the people who plot very close to the ancient CHG people. I plot closer to the ancient CHG people than the native (northern) Caucasians themselves, such as Chechens.

That the Kurds are closer to the ancient PIEans is by far more likely than so called Eastern Europeans. Why? Because we Kurds are connected to the Upper Mesopotamia, Caucasus and the Iranian Plateau. We are at the centre of the ancient civilisations so to speak.

Original PIEan people were not Northern Europeans in the first place and didn't look like them.
The people who gave rise to the Iranian language were literally Bronze Age Russians from today's Ural oblasts of the Russian Federation. They would've looked more like current Russians than modern Kurds. At least those Russians with more elongated faces.

[Ratmir]

Kurds have about 20% steppe related ancestry along with other Indo-Iranians. PIE has nothing to do with Northern Europe.
Go check how much North European Yamnayans score and compare it to your Middle Eastern people.

[Guti]

Another non-White fantasy of their peeps being closer to PIEs genetically than the early Tarim mummies or the Hermitage Museum Scythians, etc, et al; and even self-hating Whites like Colin Renfrew were downplaying PIEs being White until genetic science made them apologize for their woke mistake. Out of India, out of Kurdopotamia = out of your asses.LMAO.

But I don’t really enjoy the cries and whines of the butthurt people.


1. early Tarim mummies had nothing to do about the ancient proto-Indo-European people
2. Tocharians were mostly ANE people and ANE people had nothing to do with the WHG

3. Many ignorant people who are being brainwashed for a very long time by very twisted and insecure sick minds will wake up with a hangover.


It is GAME OVER.

[Halgurd]

The people who gave rise to the Iranian language were literally Bronze Age Russians from today's Ural oblasts of the Russian Federation. They would've looked more like current Russians than modern Kurds. At least those Russians with more elongated faces.

Bronze Age Russians? Are you being for real? This reminds me why I left this retarded forum.

[Guti]

Go check how much North European Yamnayans score and compare it to your Middle Eastern people.Dude, Yamnaya itself was 50% Middle Eastern.

[Guti]

Kurds don't have to be Yamnaya, we Kurds MADE Yamnaya, hehe

[Ratmir]

Bronze Age Russians? Are you being for real? This reminds me why I left this retarded forum.
Then fucking leave it again. Though I don't care about the forum myself. :D

[Ratmir]

Dude, Yamnaya itself was 50% Middle Eastern.
They were part Caucasian, not a goddman Camel Jockey type of MENA. Kurds are darker than North Caucasians by a long shot. You look almost Pakistani at times.

[Halgurd]

They were part Caucasian, not a goddman Camel Jockey type of MENA. Kurds are darker than North Caucasians by a long shot. You look almost Pakistani at times.

This is what Yamnaya looked like

https://i.redd.it/a8kbspvesw871.jpg

https://i.redd.it/meblzqvesw871.jpg

[Ratmir]

The Sintashta were discovered in Russia, so yes, they were Bronze Age Russians, not some sand N-words.

[Halgurd]

The Sintashta were discovered in Russia, so yes, they were Bronze Age Russians, not some sand N-words.

That doesn’t mean they were Russians. There were no Russians nor was there a Russia in that era. Retarded terminology to use and reflects your low level IQ.

[Ratmir]

This is what Yamnaya looked like

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/a8kbspvesw871.jpg
Yes, an artistic impression. Probably made by a non-white artist or a white/Jewish liberal. Though I don't expect you to know about the anti-white (which means European) bias in the media and academia.

[Guti]

They were part Caucasian, not a goddman Camel Jockey type of MENA. Kurds are darker than North Caucasians by a long shot. You look almost Pakistani at times.
Great if Kurds look almost Pakistani at times, so were the Proto-Indo-Europeans!

And Yamnaya were partly Caucaso-Gedrosia people.


Like I said earlier, Kurds are mostly Iran_ChL people. I plot closer to the ancient CHG people than most people who are native to the Caucasus.


M603839 M551062 Kotias CHG
https://i.postimg.cc/05FTytjZ/Kotias.jpg

M677694 Satsurblia CHG
https://i.postimg.cc/kXSk6xtC/Satsurblia.jpg

[Guti]

Yes, an artistic impression. Probably made by a non-white artist or a white/Jewish liberal. Though I don't expect you to know about the anti-white (which means European) bias in the media and academia.Are you getting a panic attack or what?

You are nothing but in denial. You don't act rational and act very emotional. Just follow the academic papers and read what the academic literature is telling us.

[Ratmir]

What a fucking shitshow. I'm leaving. You guys can go on.

[Halgurd]

What a fucking shitshow. I'm leaving. You guys can go on.

I’ll see you again in 5 minutes crying about the poor oppressed white race

[Guti]

What a fucking shitshow. I'm leaving. You guys can go on.Yeah, you have chosen a very wrong hobby and picked the wrong people, hehe.

Kurds are not Africa or something, but ancient people with an ancient history older than your history, that for sure.


We Kurds are Aryans after all, while people like you are nothing but just wannabe Aryan. You want to be like us.


Now go and try to bully somebody else..

[chinshen]

That doesn’t mean they were Russians. There were no Russians nor was there a Russia in that era. Retarded terminology to use and reflects your low level IQ.

What you say makes a lot of sense, but why the double standards?
Why don't you apply the same reasonable logic to your situation?

[Halgurd]

What you say makes a lot of sense, but why the double standards?
Why don't you apply the same reasonable logic to your situation?

What do you mean? I am not claiming the Indo-Anatolians or PIE were Kurds.

[Voskos]

J =West Asian or Southwest Asian
I = Paleoeuropean
G = Anatolia Neolithic
I+R = Indoeuropean
J+R = Indoeuropean
G+I = Neolithic Europe

[chinshen]

What do you mean? I am not claiming the Indo-Anatolians or PIE were Kurds.

dup

[Guti]

What you say makes a lot of sense, but why the double standards?
Why don't you apply the same reasonable logic to your situation?Kurds are the most native people of the Zagros Mountains. We have got the most of our DNA from the Zagros Mountains. Tell me who is more native to the Zagros Mountains than the Kurds? Who else has more Zagros Mountains ancestry than the Kurds?

Of course modern Kurds are not identical to our Aryan Iran_ChL ancestors. We both are separated from each other by many millennia and many things changed in between.

Kurds got a lot ancestry from the people outside Kurdistan, mostly from the Trialeti people. It is even possible that and according to the academic PCA maps Kurds are even closer to the Trialeti/Late Maykop people than to the ancient Iran_ChL Zagros people.


But at the end we can say that there is still some continuation between the ancient and modern times in Kurdistan. New people come mix with older people, give rise to new people again etc, but at the end all those people become just children of their soil, and in Kurdish case it is Upper Mesopotamia and the Zagros Moutains.



Kurdistan is an ancient land and the native homeland of many great ancient civilisations.

[chinshen]

What do you mean? I am not claiming the Indo-Anatolians or PIE were Kurds.

Dup

[Guti]

J =West Asian or Southwest Asian
I = Paleoeuropean
G = Anatolia Neolithic
I+R = Indoeuropean
J+R = Indoeuropean
G+I = Neolithic EuropeWho do you think the ancient CHG people were?
I am sure that CHG people had the same paternal lineages as Iran_N/Irn_ChL people.


They found mostly J2a and J1 among the ancient CHG people. And Yamnaya was 50% CHG/Iran_ChL..

[chinshen]

What do you mean? I am not claiming the Indo-Anatolians or PIE were Kurds.

Maybe you didn't, but your friend Guti did claim just that and it didn't seem to bother you a bit.

[Guti]

I was right after all with my first choice. According to Reich, the proto-Indo-European people came from Kurdistan.


Y-DNA hg. R1b lineages in my people the Ezdi Kurds are one of the oldest proto-Indo-European lineages.


Some of the most basal Y-DNA hg. R1b* lineages ancestral to the Yamnaya hg. R1b can be found in Kurdistan.


Y-DNA hg. R1a* is next. Same as hg. R1b*, also Y-DNA hg. R1a* lineages are from Kurdistan!

[Guti]

This is what I mean with a Caucaso-Iranic racial stock! It is originally from South Caucasus-Zagros area.



The researchers found that from 35 to as much as 50 percent of Yamnaya ancestry-what they characterize as a "substantial contribution"-came from the south, specifically the South Caucasus-Zagros area. Critically, the discovery links "the Proto-Indo-European-speaking Yamnaya with the speakers of Anatolian languages"; both share ancestry in the highlands of West Asia (the Middle East, including the Caucasus and Zagros mountains).

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2022/08/indo-european-languages

[Guti]

This is what Iosif Lazaridis wrote on twitter. Iosif Lazaridis is a coauthor of the 'Southern Arc' paper:


https://i.postimg.cc/FRC03jZD/iosif.jpg

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1563953730499878926

[Bart0s]

Just a few weeks left before the first of the 3 ground-breaking papers will come out.
According to David Reich the 'Southern Arc' was a place where the first stage PIEans came from. It was the initial homeland of the earliest proto-Indo-European peoples that later on Indo-Europeanized many people in Europe and Asia.


First of all, I don't know anything about the papers. So at this moment nobody can be right or wrong. It is just a guess. But with my current knowledge about population genetics I can make somehow an educated guess.


After studying the Yamnaya DNA my first guess would be that the 'Southern Arc' has to be located on the eastern side of West Asia. That means that I am ruling the Levant and Anatolia out.

The next step for me to determine the PIEan URHEIMAT is was it in north parts, in the eastern parts or somewhere at the centre of the Eastern West Asia.

All data are pointing out that early stage PIEan people were heavy on a 'Gedrosia' (Caucaso-iranic) component with some minor Anatolia/Levantine influence. That means that I am ruling out the location of the 'Southern Arc' somewhere in the Caucasus.

The only 3 locations that are left are in the Upper Mesopotamia (Southern Kurdistan around Lalish), Northwestern Iran and the northern/central Zagros Mountains.


If I have to choice between those 3, my first chose would be

1. Northcentral Zagros Mountain range. Kurdish Soran areas to the south of Lake Urmia, maybe even close to the Luristan


My second choice would be:

2. an area in the Upper Mesopotamia around Lalish (centre of the Yezidism)


3rd option would be

3 Northwestern Iran around southwestern Caspian Sea coast. Not far from Gilan province of Iran.


https://i.postimg.cc/HLTDGcrD/southern-arc.jpg


This is also where they found the J2b2 from the Bronze Age I think

[Joachim]

Bump.
Iran_N/CHG is the creator of modern world.
From sumerians to ancient Ionian Greeks who founded western civilization to original proto indo europeans,all were iranN/chg derived majorly

[Joachim]

This is what Iosif Lazaridis wrote on twitter. Iosif Lazaridis is a coauthor of the 'Southern Arc' paper:


https://i.postimg.cc/FRC03jZD/iosif.jpg

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1563953730499878926

Davidski and his eurogenes commentors kn sui watch.

Muh ehg men kidnapped chg Wiminz.

It seems like more chg men took part in formation of proto IE than chg women did