Classify peasants from Tajikistan

[Oliver109]

Pamir people, can't be asked to do a poll but best fit out of these countries:

Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Afghanistan
Georgia
Azerbaijan
Armenia
Romania
Bulgaria
Moldova
Italy
Greece
Albania
Turkey


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTo_yyOhlGw

[znenammi]

Pamirid Sigmachads.

[Melonman]

if azerbayjan was there, i would picked azerbayjan

apart from parts of northeast afg, they as whole dont look like afghans to be honest

[Tooting Carmen]

They resemble Kavkazians above all else.

[Russki]

They resemble Kavkazians above all else.


https://sun9-34.userapi.com/impf/glGoq2gfgWQD8jCeKdy0VEmHQ0Dpf4rhvA3PPg/XDRBcZsSxw0.jpg?size=791x1600&quality=95&sign=c1e79b00d10388474c4e9a9a3cca0d06&type=album

[Guti]

Original Tajiks (Farsi speakers) were Western Iranics (Persians, Iran_ChL Caucaso-Gedrosian people) who migrated into Central Asia and heavily mixed with the locals there.

[Guti]

Historical antecedents. The most plausible and generally accepted origin of the word is Middle Persian tāzīk ‘Arab’ (cf. New Persian tāzi), or an Iranian (Sogdian or Parthian) cognate word. The Muslim armies that invaded Transoxiana early in the eighth century, conquering the Sogdian principalities and clashing with the Qarluq Turks (see Bregel, Atlas, Maps 8–10) consisted not only of Arabs but also of Persian converts from Fārs and the central Zagros region (Bartol’d [Barthold], “Tadžiki,” pp. 455-57). Hence the Turks of Central Asia adopted a variant of the Iranian word, täžik, to designate their Muslim adversaries in general. By the eleventh century (Yusof Ḵāṣṣ-ḥājeb, Qutadḡu bilig, lines 280, 282, 3265) the Qarakhanid Turks applied this term more specifically to the Persian Muslims in the Oxus basin and Khorasan, who were variously the Turks’ rivals, models, overlords (under the Samanid Dynasty), and subjects (from Ghaznavid times on). Persian writers of the Ghaznavid, Seljuq and Atābak periods (ca. 1000–1260) adopted the term and extended its use to cover Persians in the rest of Iran, now under Turkish rule, as early as the poet ʿOnṣori, ca. 1025 (Dabirsiāqi, pp. 3377, 3408). Iranians soon accepted it as an ethnonym, as is shown by a Persian court official’s referring to mā tāzikān “we Tajiks” (Bayhaqi, ed. Fayyāz, p. 594). The distinction between Turk and Tajik became stereotyped to express the symbiosis and rivalry of the (ideally) nomadic military executive and the urban civil bureaucracy (Niẓām al-Molk: tāzik, pp. 146, 178-79; Fragner, “Tādjīk. 2” in EI2 10, p. 63).

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/tajik-i-the-ethnonym-origins-and-application

[Hungarian_master]

Afghanistan (Tajik and Pamiri ethnicities)
Azerbaijan
Turkey
Georgia
Armenia

The rest are less passable.

[Roy]

They do indeed resemble many people from Azerbaijan, Afganistan (Pamir, Wakhi corridor) & Georgia.

Phenotypes: Dinarid, Pamirid and Alpinid.

[Hektor12]

A lot of them pass in my area but some look very foreign.

[Guti]

Here is an academic PCA map of where you can see where those Tajiks plot compared to other people.

https://i.postimg.cc/VsSDqKxn/PCA-of-Afghanistan-populations-and-others.png
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/First-and-second-components-of-the-Principal-Component-Analysis-based-on-autosomal-data_fig7_258350735

Tajiks (orange circle) plot closer to the Western Iranics than Afghan Tajiks (dark blue circle). Turkmen do even plot closer than those Tajiks.


As a (Northwest Asian/Iranic) Ezdi Kurd, somehow Yagnobi Tajiks plot by far the closest to me compared to the 'other' Tajiks or Afghans.


Distance to: Guti_scaled
0.01219574 Iranian:Kurdish
0.01336610 Iranian:Ezid
0.01599120 Iranian:Lor
0.01671334 Iranian:Talysh
0.02030644 Iranian:_Parsi
0.03765780 Iranian:Mazandarani
0.07520929 Iranian:Ossetian
0.08747265 Tajik:Yagnobi
0.11661112 Tajik:Rushan
0.11994659 Tajik:Shugnan
0.12845965 Tajik:Badakshan
0.12917717 Tajik:Ishkashim
0.14901517 Iranian:_Pashtun

More here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?364651-G25-Indo-Iranian-model-(I-think-made-for-Indo_Iranians-only)

[Tsuin]

Can pass in Azerbaijan and Afghanistan

[Melonman]

Here is an academic PCA map of where you can see where those Tajiks plot compared to other people.

https://i.postimg.cc/VsSDqKxn/PCA-of-Afghanistan-populations-and-others.png
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/First-and-second-components-of-the-Principal-Component-Analysis-based-on-autosomal-data_fig7_258350735

Tajiks (orange circle) plot closer to the Western Iranics than Afghan Tajiks (dark blue circle). Turkmen do even plot closer than those Tajiks.


As a (Northwest Asian/Iranic) Ezdi Kurd, somehow Yagnobi Tajiks plot by far the closest to me compared to the 'other' Tajiks or Afghans.


Distance to: Guti_scaled
0.01219574 Iranian:Kurdish
0.01336610 Iranian:Ezid
0.01599120 Iranian:Lor
0.01671334 Iranian:Talysh
0.02030644 Iranian:_Parsi
0.03765780 Iranian:Mazandarani
0.07520929 Iranian:Ossetian
0.08747265 Tajik:Yagnobi
0.11661112 Tajik:Rushan
0.11994659 Tajik:Shugnan
0.12845965 Tajik:Badakshan
0.12917717 Tajik:Ishkashim
0.14901517 Iranian:_Pashtun

More here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?364651-G25-Indo-Iranian-model-(I-think-made-for-Indo_Iranians-only)

1. yagnobis can have some west iranic ancestry, since there were mix between khorosan persians and local persians, though yagnobis arent even persians and tajiks, theyre just called tajiks because of nationality. the people on the plot youre seeing would rather resemble the badakhshan tajiks


2.

they dont even seem to plot closer to the nearest west asians than to the outlier afg and pak pashtuns, and those west asians are 100 percent khorosan persians, no way a sumerian descent iranian can be this shifted towards central asians. this is also why theyre so close to turkmen, who are clearly from somehwere in south turkmenistan or iran khorosan, hence why theyre so much closer to west asians than to other central asian turks, including afg turkmen


so tajiks plots as close to outlier pak pashtuns as to khorosan persians

tajiks in general are closer to afg tajiks, you just see very turkic admixed afg tajiks, which of the types you also can find in tajikstan too. this is also why those afg-tajiks plots so much towards turkics

[Guti]

Are you implying that those G25 coordinates are actually not real Yagnobi but more related to the Khorosan Persians? And those Yagnobis form Tajikistan who cluster close to me are actually Khorosan Persians?

If those G25 Yagnobis are in reality Khorosan Persians then the whole amateurish G25 is good for nothing and can be manipulated from all sides. So then it is not legit at all and all the results coming from G25 cannot be taken seriously.

But if those Yagnobis are the real Yagnobis, then the only explanation why they are relatively so close to me compared to other Central Asians is that those Yagnobis are actually 'more pure' Eastern Iranics and are still genetically very closer to the Eastern Iranic BMAC (Iran_ChL) source. By 'more pure' Eastern Iranics I mean less mixed with the Turkic people and less mixed with the Hindu/Punjabi/Dravidian people.

It is also possible that I do have some Eastern Iranic ancestry imported by the Parthians or Scythians.


Yagnobis are almost as close to me as other Eastern Iranic Ossetians. While Ossetians are actually considered a Northwestern Asian population more related to the Caucasus and Iran.


The only real thing that connects Western Iranics from Northwest Asia with Eastern Iranics from Southcentral Asia is mostly BMAC. And BMAC (Iran_ChL) is originally from Western Asia, right?

If Yagnobis have a lot BMAC ancestry it would explain why they are so close to Western Iranics, compared to other Iranics in Central Asia.

[Oliver109]

Are you implying that those G25 coordinates are actually not real Yagnobi but more related to the Khorosan Persians? And those Yagnobis form Tajikistan who cluster close to me are actually Khorosan Persians?

If those G25 Yagnobis are in reality Khorosan Persians then the whole amateurish G25 is good for nothing and can be manipulated from all sides. So then it is not legit at all and all the results coming from G25 cannot be taken seriously.

But if those Yagnobis are the real Yagnobis, then the only explanation why they are relatively so close to me compared to other Central Asians is that those Yagnobis are actually 'more pure' Eastern Iranics and are still genetically very closer to the Eastern Iranic BMAC (Iran_ChL) source. By 'more pure' Eastern Iranics I mean less mixed with the Turkic people and less mixed with the Hindu/Punjabi/Dravidian people.

It is also possible that I do have some Eastern Iranic ancestry imported by the Parthians or Scythians.


Yagnobis are almost as close to me as other Eastern Iranic Ossetians. While Ossetians are actually considered a Northwestern Asian population more related to the Caucasus and Iran.


The only real thing that connects Western Iranics from Northwest Asia with Eastern Iranics from Southcentral Asia is mostly BMAC. And BMAC (Iran_ChL) is originally from Western Asia, right?

If Yagnobis have a lot BMAC ancestry it would explain why they are so close to Western Iranics, compared to other Iranics in Central Asia.

V interesting, do you think they migrated to the Pamirs through Iran?

[Guti]

I am not sure what you mean. But there was indeed some Persian migration into Central Asia. That's why Farsi (Persian) is an official language in Tajikistan and Afghanistan.

But if you are referring more to the ancient times and mean proto-Eastern Iranics, then it is indeed BMAC and more precisely the Yaz culture that is seen by all Iranologists all over the world and by the academic world in general as a proto-Eastern Iranic homeland of all Eastern Iranic speaking people, including Western Asian Ossetians (Alanians).

And BMAC/Yaz culture was indeed formed mostly by the Iran_ChL people from Western Iran or Kurdistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture


In general Yagnobis have been linked to the ancient Eastern Iranic Sogdians. Many Sogdians fought together with the Medes in the Mesopotamia against the Semitic or Armenian people.

There are not many Yagnobi speaking people left. If they are not directly related to the Khorosan Persians and of they got a lot BMAC ancestry it could mean that those Yagnobis lived isolated and didn't mix much with their neighbours.


https://i.postimg.cc/0NbsHVtx/BMAC.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/cCNGC0d4/scyth.jpg
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4414

[Oliver109]

I am not sure what you do mean. But there was indeed some Persian migration into Central Asia. That's why Farsi (Persian) is an official language in Tajikistan and Afghanistan.

But if you are referring more to the ancient time and mean proto-Eastern Iranics, then it is indeed BMAC and more precisely the Yaz culture that is seen by all Iranologists all over the world and by the academic world in general as a proto-Eastern Iranic homeland of all Eastern Iranic speaking people, including Western Asian Ossetians (Alanians).

And BMAC/Yaz culture was indeed formed mostly by the Iran_ChL people from Western Iran or Kurdistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture


In general Yagnobis have been linked to the ancient Eastern Iranic Sogdians. Many Sogdians fought together with the Medes in the Mesopotamia against the Semitic or Armenian people.

There are not many Yagnobi speaking people left. If they are not directly related to the Khorosan Persians and of they got a lot BMAC ancestry it could mean that those Yagnobis lived isolated and didn't mix much with their neighbours.


https://i.postimg.cc/0NbsHVtx/BMAC.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/cCNGC0d4/scyth.jpg
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe4414

Thanks brother, i mean what was the reason for the migration of people from the Caucasus region to the Pamirs? and did they travel through Iran to arrive in Tajikistan?

[Guti]

Sogdians (ancestors of Yagnobis) were just native to BMAC. BMAC is located in modern day Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. I have always considered BMAC area as an extension of the Iranian Plateau.

https://i.postimg.cc/pVFRQc7t/BMAC.png


But I am not sure why there was some Iran_ChL migration into Central Asia before proto-Eastern Iranics came into the existence, but keep in mind that a big part of those ancient Iranic peoples were 'nomadic pastoralists' looking for new grasslands. Furthermore I don't rule out that there were some 'Barbarians' among them who liked to plunder (similar to a Golden Horde). There was also some trade going on between Mesopotamia and BMAC.

[Guti]

Climate Change and the Rise and Fall of the Oxus Civilization in Southern Central Asia

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-00728-7_14

[Oliver109]

Yagnobis or Sogdians were just native to BMAC. BMAC is located in modern day Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. I have always considered BMAC area as an extension of the Iranian Plateau.

https://i.postimg.cc/pVFRQc7t/BMAC.png


But I am not sure why there was some Iran_ChL migration into Central Asia before proto-Eastern Iranics came into the existence, but keep in mind that a big part of those ancient Iranic peoples were 'nomadic pastoralists' looking for new grasslands. Furthermore I don't rule out that there were some 'Barbarians' among them who liked to plunder (similar to a Golden Horde). There was also some trade going on between Mesopotamia and BMAC.

Hmm so this was before the Mongols came into Turkmenistan, so before it was basically European?

[Guti]

Hmm so this was before the Mongols came into Turkmenistan, so before it was basically European?
If you mean Indo-European or Iranic, then yes. Turkmenistan was home of the Eastern Iranic people before Turkic (Oghuz) tribes from the Altai/Mongolia arrived in Turkmenistan.


Turkmenistan was at the beginning part of the Achaemenid Empire.

https://i.postimg.cc/y8PfhCcx/achaemenid-empire-northeast-map.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/nLh30SGk/achaemenid-empire-map.jpg
https://silkroadresearch.blog/2018/09/19/achaemenid-empire/


People of Turkmenistan are originally from the Altai but they have assimilated many native Eastern Iranic people who lived before them around ancient BMAC horizon. This is one of some other reasons why people of Turkmenistan are not fully Mongoloid and are shifted toward Western Eurasia.

[Melonman]

Are you implying that those G25 coordinates are actually not real Yagnobi but more related to the Khorosan Persians? And those Yagnobis form Tajikistan who cluster close to me are actually Khorosan Persians?

If those G25 Yagnobis are in reality Khorosan Persians then the whole amateurish G25 is good for nothing and can be manipulated from all sides. So then it is not legit at all and all the results coming from G25 cannot be taken seriously.

But if those Yagnobis are the real Yagnobis, then the only explanation why they are relatively so close to me compared to other Central Asians is that those Yagnobis are actually 'more pure' Eastern Iranics and are still genetically very closer to the Eastern Iranic BMAC (Iran_ChL) source. By 'more pure' Eastern Iranics I mean less mixed with the Turkic people and less mixed with the Hindu/Punjabi/Dravidian people.

It is also possible that I do have some Eastern Iranic ancestry imported by the Parthians or Scythians.


Yagnobis are almost as close to me as other Eastern Iranic Ossetians. While Ossetians are actually considered a Northwestern Asian population more related to the Caucasus and Iran.


The only real thing that connects Western Iranics from Northwest Asia with Eastern Iranics from Southcentral Asia is mostly BMAC. And BMAC (Iran_ChL) is originally from Western Asia, right?

If Yagnobis have a lot BMAC ancestry it would explain why they are so close to Western Iranics, compared to other Iranics in Central Asia.

i was talking about the 2D pca plot, not your g25 results

all of the pamiris got high bmac, yagnobis just got additional west asian ancestry, khorosan ancestry, and less so turkic ancestry, unlike the pamiris

either way, yagnobis, like pamiris, arent persians or tajiks, theyre their own thing