Known Ancestry vs Midpoint Plotting: Should one identify with a genetic midpoint?

[Renzi]

If a person of mixed European ancestry plots with a population other than the ones that make up his or her ancestry, would it be appropriate under any condition for that person to identify with that midpoint population on calculators? For example, a southern Italian and Swede mix that plots with northern Italians.

It seems a bit strange to me but I suppose the argument can be made they are genetically similar to their midpoint. What do you think?

[Figaro]

Known ancestry, of course. If you’re 1/2 Hungarian/Greek, and you come out ...I don’t know, as a Croat or somewhere around there, it would seem super silly to identify as a Croat just based off the interpretations and algorithms.

[Roy]

No, this is stupid as it has nothing to do with your genuine descent.

[Voskos]

Yes, they should also learn the language of the midpoint and move to said country for life. And shut the door behind, throw the key in the sea.

[Florin Radu]

No, this is stupid as it has nothing to do with your genuine descent.


Known ancestry, of course. If you’re 1/2 Hungarian/Greek, and you come out ...I don’t know, as a Croat or somewhere around there, it would seem super silly to identify as a Croat just based off the interpretations and algorithms.

I tend to agree but have seem some people on this forum and other forums claiming their midpoint is meaningful. One guy even posts videos and pictures to celebrate his plotting.

[Jana]

Known ancestry, of course. If you’re 1/2 Hungarian/Greek, and you come out ...I don’t know, as a Croat or somewhere around there, it would seem super silly to identify as a Croat just based off the interpretations and algorithms.

Are you for real?? Hungarians literally plot with Croats, for God's sake.
Lmao.

[gixajo]

It seems to me something quite absurd

But in the case of Swedish+South Italian=North Italian, considering how reviled the Southern Italians are by some retarded people , it would be a way of masking their relationship with a group that is usually despised by some assholes.

[gixajo]

Are you for real?? Hungarians literally plot with Croats, for God's sake.
Lmao.

Depending with which Greek you mix the Hungarian, for example with Greek_Laconia reference+Hungarian=

Distance to: Greek_Laconia/Hungarian
0.01305663 Bulgarian
0.01310529 Romanian
0.01457836 Macedonian
0.01832180 Gagauz
0.02103781 Montenegrin
0.02105777 Serbian
0.02430866 Italian_Northeast
0.02709823 Moldovan
0.02950373 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03073909 Greek_Macedonia
0.03151645 Rumelia_East
0.03223676 Albanian
0.03297955 Italian_Veneto
0.03399729 Bosnian
0.03425984 Swiss_Italian
0.03504824 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03591175 Greek_Thessaly
0.03633101 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03729900 Italian_Piedmont
0.03823854 French_Provence
0.03915947 Italian_Liguria
0.04042880 Greek_Messenia
0.04092233 Greek_Achaea
0.04130347 Italian_Bergamo
0.04157585 Greek_Arcadia


Greek_Laconia/Hungarian,0.1206878,0.1385532,0.0298251,0.0033726, 0.0267624,0.0009058,0.0044099,0.0034908,0.0016071, 0.0050764,0.0008088,-0.0008761,0.0010448,0.0079836,-0.0092589,-0.0016985,0.0024038,0.0002509,0.0035848,-0.0038642,-0.0049494,0.0016207,0.0043406,0.0022507,-0.0007707

https://i.postimg.cc/V6xSV9ZS/laconiahungarian.png (https://postimages.org/)

Hungarians can be quite diverse, and Greeks too.

And G25 is not the Bible, of course.

[rothaer]

If a person of mixed European ancestry plots with a population other than the ones that make up his or her ancestry, would it be appropriate under any condition for that person to identify with that midpoint population on calculators? For example, a southern Italian and Swede mix that plots with northern Italians.

It seems a bit strange to me but I suppose the argument can be made they are genetically similar to their midpoint. What do you think?

The actual ancestry is what you are really connected to, but the genetic midpoint would to me have an importance. Particularly if the genetic distance to there is low like for an indigenous to that area individual. Then this is what you end up alike - admittedly just genetically, but nevertheless.

If we refer to the LM Genetics correlation map, then indigenous-like would be from abt. 0.97 and upwards.

[Jana]

Depending with which Greek you mix the Hungarian, for example with Greek_Laconia reference+Hungarian=

Distance to: Greek_Laconia/Hungarian
0.01305663 Bulgarian
0.01310529 Romanian
0.01457836 Macedonian
0.01832180 Gagauz
0.02103781 Montenegrin
0.02105777 Serbian
0.02430866 Italian_Northeast
0.02709823 Moldovan
0.02950373 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03073909 Greek_Macedonia
0.03151645 Rumelia_East
0.03223676 Albanian
0.03297955 Italian_Veneto
0.03399729 Bosnian
0.03425984 Swiss_Italian
0.03504824 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03591175 Greek_Thessaly
0.03633101 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03729900 Italian_Piedmont
0.03823854 French_Provence
0.03915947 Italian_Liguria
0.04042880 Greek_Messenia
0.04092233 Greek_Achaea
0.04130347 Italian_Bergamo
0.04157585 Greek_Arcadia


Greek_Laconia/Hungarian,0.1206878,0.1385532,0.0298251,0.0033726, 0.0267624,0.0009058,0.0044099,0.0034908,0.0016071, 0.0050764,0.0008088,-0.0008761,0.0010448,0.0079836,-0.0092589,-0.0016985,0.0024038,0.0002509,0.0035848,-0.0038642,-0.0049494,0.0016207,0.0043406,0.0022507,-0.0007707

https://i.postimg.cc/V6xSV9ZS/laconiahungarian.png (https://postimages.org/)

Hungarians can be quite diverse, and Greeks too.

And G25 is not the Bible, of course.

Your point being?

[Figaro]

Are you for real?? Hungarians literally plot with Croats, for God's sake.
Lmao.

Sorry to blaspheme, I’ll do better next time. In my defense I had no coffee up until that point, and was falling apart :)

[JamesBond007]

If a person of mixed European ancestry plots with a population other than the ones that make up his or her ancestry, would it be appropriate under any condition for that person to identify with that midpoint population on calculators? For example, a southern Italian and Swede mix that plots with northern Italians.

It seems a bit strange to me but I suppose the argument can be made they are genetically similar to their midpoint. What do you think?

Someone who is a mix of Swedish and Italian who doesn't speak French is just a mutt. Someone who is a mix of German, English and Irish or Scots, in the Anglo-Sphere can identify as English or Anglo-Saxon. There is a difference.

[Mortimer]

Someone who is a mix of Swedish and Italian who doesn't speak French is just a mutt. Someone who is a mix of German, English and Irish or Scots, in the Anglo-Sphere can identify as English or Anglo-Saxon. There is a difference.

I agree, it depends on the whole context. It is not always the same.

[Rafael Passoni]

Known Ancestry. In recent mixes, chromosomes arren't homogeneous I think.

[J. Ketch]

Someone who is a mix of Swedish and Italian who doesn't speak French is just a mutt. Someone who is a mix of German, English and Irish or Scots, in the Anglo-Sphere can identify as English or Anglo-Saxon. There is a difference.
According only to you.

[Karol Klačansky]

Known ancestry, of course. If you’re 1/2 Hungarian/Greek, and you come out ...I don’t know, as a Croat or somewhere around there, it would seem super silly to identify as a Croat just based off the interpretations and algorithms.

considering hungarians and croatians plot right next to eachother, no way a half hungarian and half greek gunna plot with a croat.

[Karol Klačansky]

lol no, if you are half swedish and half italian and plot with germans or something, but literally have no ancestry from those people why should u identify with them?

[Grom]

More context is required. I'd suggest identifying as an Italian if I were half Swedish and half South Italian. You're not going to pass as an ethnic Swede under any circumstances in Sweden, but in Italy you'd probably resemble a North Italian superficially on account of your genomic profile, and non-Italians certainly wouldn't know any better. Moreover, let's not pretend like you wouldn't receive preferential treatment in Italy on account of your less swarthy complexion; discrimination against terroni is very real.

It's worth pointing out that this whole "identifying with a genetic midpoint" wouldn't really be an issue if you were half Swedish and half Irish, for instance; both ethnicities have the same autosomal makeup and a lot of phenotypical overlap. It also helps that the world's most powerful country is primarily made up of people with various North European mixtures.

[rothaer]

lol no, if you are half swedish and half italian and plot with germans or something, but literally have no ancestry from those people why should u identify with them?

Lol, you regularly plot even kind of within my family genetically, so a little more devotion to that, please! ;) :p

[rothaer]

Something that could be considered as the opposite of genetic midpoint considerations was dealt with in this thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?250252-Genetic-ancestry-test-users-cherry-pick-which-races-to-identify-with

[Thracian]

Both can be inaccurate.

That also be totally awkward if someone who has half Greek and half Ukrainian ancestry claims he is a Serb.

Some of our known ancestors could also have been assimilated and adopted new society with new names and religions etc...

[Karol Klačansky]

Lol, you regularly plot even kind of within my family genetically, so a little more devotion to that, please! ;) :p

I have no problems with east germans, its u guys who dont care as much for your west slavic brothers.

[kingmob]

The 'homogenous' nation states of 18th-20th century are strictly enlightenment/masonic projects that have outlived the purpose of their original creators, ie the division of the Christian peoples under false premises, and the replacement of Christian tradition and Faith with ridiculous abstract concepts and notions such as "statehood" and the "rule of civil law", "citizenship", etc., all of them luciferian principles in their origin.

Now they mobilize to replace those outdated creations with their new project, the globalized super-state in the service of their master.

The people who adhere to those old 18th-20th century notions of nationhood have yet to understand they adhere to a lie, set up to entrap them in a false premise in the first place.

[Renzi]

Someone who is a mix of Swedish and Italian who doesn't speak French is just a mutt. Someone who is a mix of German, English and Irish or Scots, in the Anglo-Sphere can identify as English or Anglo-Saxon. There is a difference.


I agree, it depends on the whole context. It is not always the same.

It then begs the question, where is the supposed cutoff point where European mixes are "mutts" or "not mutts"? What makes a German, English, Irish, Scots mix not a mutt when Germans don't even plot with the British Isles? It strikes me as arbitrary, non-scientific, and out of personal convenience.

[alnortedelsur]

Double

[alnortedelsur]

From now on I identify as Nortern/Central Italian (based on where I plot on PCA maps).

I will tell my niece (daughter of my sister with a white Murican guy of mostly British stock), that she must identify as French xD

[Token]

Basing your identity on your position on a PCA plot is beyond retarded.

[rothaer]

I have no problems with east germans, its u guys who dont care as much for your west slavic brothers.

That's just because we rarely come across as convincing compositions as "75% Slovak, 19.5% British Isles, 2.5% German, 1.5% Swiss German, 1.5% French". :thumb001: :)

[JamesBond007]

According only to you.

Wrong idiot :


As the nineteenth century progressed, immigrants began to arrive from a wider array of sources in Eastern and Southern Europe, eventually forming a majority of the flow. (Easterlin 1982) New England WASP writers of the mid-nineteenth century like Ralph Waldo Emerson, though decrying the rise of the Irish presence, at least contented themselves with the knowledge that they had been spared the 'Black eyes and black drop….the "Europe of Europe".' (Higham [1955] 1986: 65) Likewise, a new generation of writers in the late nineteenth century, like Theodore Roosevelt or Francis Parkman, subscribed to the idea that the Irish and Germans could combine with the English to re-form a new Anglo-Saxon compound akin to the English blend of Saxon and Celt. This would allow the WASP dominant ethnie to restore its congruence with the nation. Assimilation to Protestantism and the English language could thereby lead to a retention of the ethnic boundary in the face of massive migratory transgression. The shift in source countries from the north and west to the south and east of Europe threatened to upset this national vision, as did the potential of large-scale Chinese immigration post-1864

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.sneps.net/OO/images/Kaufmann-Decline_WASP_USA_Canada.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiZ3suQl7r5AhXTkIkEHeWbALcQFnoECAIQAg&usg=AOvVaw0mqg-LIURs1efR0Kv6F4oX

[JamesBond007]

Basing your identity on your position on a PCA plot is beyond retarded.

I plot with the English but it is more than that to me I also live in the anglo-sphere and not France or Germany. There are also some English celebrities that have a similar phenotype to mine.

[JamesBond007]

It then begs the question, where is the supposed cutoff point where European mixes are "mutts" or "not mutts"? What makes a German, English, Irish, Scots mix not a mutt when Germans don't even plot with the British Isles? It strikes me as arbitrary, non-scientific, and out of personal convenience.

The Queen of England is part German from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and being about 25% German is par for the course for southern England. It is not exactly scientific per se but to ignore culture and place or residence seems autistic.

[Fortnite777]

Ehh it depends. Genetically you are that midpoint. Someone who is half AJA or South Italian or Greek or Sicilian and half English or Irish or German or Danish will be genetically closest to none of those peoples. He will be closest to Northern Italians. I would say that you should not identify with that ethnicity specifically, but it is fair to identify with the genetic region it belongs to. In this case, Sub-Mediterrenean. After all, many do believe Northern Italians are largely South Italian (Imperial) + Northern invaders (and also Gallo-Romans)

[Mortimer]

The Queen of England is part German from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and being about 25% German is par for the course for southern England. It is not exactly scientific per se but to ignore culture and place or residence seems autistic.

I think the Queens husband who recently passed away was fully german, he was even as kid in the SS?

[Ratmir]

Someone who is a mix of Swedish and Italian who doesn't speak French is just a mutt. Someone who is a mix of German, English and Irish or Scots, in the Anglo-Sphere can identify as English or Anglo-Saxon. There is a difference.


According only to you.
In Europe where the main language isn't English the Anglosphere is often referred to as 'Anglo-Saxon'. In particular it's the case in Germany, Russia, France. So someone like Donald Trump is Anglo-Saxon under that definition. His father was the son of German Protestant immigrants from the Rhineland while his mom was a Gaelic-speaking Scottish woman.

[Flashball]

Sound absurd to me.

If I take my case: 75% French (North of France mainly, a little Alsace and Normandy) + 25% Sardinian

I am a little closer to my mother on the PCA than to my father, however if we only look at the genetic distance we miss a lot of information: I have more French "genetic variants" than my mother, and i expressed these "French genes" much more (I have a lot of familiar traits with French ancestors and cousins ​​on my paternal side, in particular one cousin; beware: i don't talk about how these phenotypes do not appear "typical" for some people who do not know the local phenotypes of my family French ancestral areas, this is not the subject).

I'm not going to identify myself with Aosta Valley or Catalans with 33-38% Indo-European (who are more shifted to the current French cluster than the Basque-like Iron Age Spaniards for that matter), that doesn't really make sense.

I don't have the same genetic variations as Catalans and Aosta Valley, especially since my father on the side of his strictly paternal lineage comes from a village with strong endogamy, with certain specific "selection". And my mother inherited one and two alleles on certain genes which are partly "typically Sardinian" (which themselves have different variations according to the zones, so that a zone as Ogliastra is not interchangeable with an area like Sassari)

Basically, you cannot be interchangeable with a Croatian if by chance from your (non-Croatian ethnic) ethnic mix you are in the "Croatian cluster", because there are other data to take into account than the strictly aspect of genetic distance which, in my opinion, is not really of interest, if we only take this into consideration (in the sense that it is a single piece of data that must be coupled with other data), for very mixed people

[Rædwald]

My Midpoint is in the Channel so "blub blub blub" Ethnicity

[JamesBond007]

Sound absurd to me.

If I take my case: 75% French (North of France mainly, a little Alsace and Normandy) + 25% Sardinian




I have no idea what you are droning on about that mix sounds completely French but perhaps not average.


English people are Gaulish, Insular Celtic and Germanic. I am English, French/German and Irish/scots and I am English American

[Andullero]

My Midpoint is in the Channel so "blub blub blub" Ethnicity

Simply put "Doggerlander" on that and you will be good to go.

[JamesBond007]

It then begs the question, where is the supposed cutoff point where European mixes are "mutts" or "not mutts"? What makes a German, English, Irish, Scots mix not a mutt when Germans don't even plot with the British Isles? It strikes me as arbitrary, non-scientific, and out of personal convenience.

Well, here is the thing I am an alien from Mars who thinks in facts and logic but inferior humans think in stories. So here is a story. Patrick from Liverpool is half Irish and half English since Liverpool has a large Irish presence. He is from a working class background but manages to get into the university London where as an undergraduate he meets his future wife a German exchange student : the kids are 100% English


Rinse and repeat for America, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. I am an american and of English, Irish and German ancestry and I am English American from Mars.

[J. Ketch]

Wrong idiot :
As the nineteenth century progressed, immigrants began to arrive from a wider array of sources in Eastern and Southern Europe, eventually forming a majority of the flow. (Easterlin 1982) New England WASP writers of the mid-nineteenth century like Ralph Waldo Emerson, though decrying the rise of the Irish presence, at least contented themselves with the knowledge that they had been spared the 'Black eyes and black drop….the "Europe of Europe".' (Higham [1955] 1986: 65) Likewise, a new generation of writers in the late nineteenth century, like Theodore Roosevelt or Francis Parkman, subscribed to the idea that the Irish and Germans could combine with the English to re-form a new Anglo-Saxon compound akin to the English blend of Saxon and Celt. This would allow the WASP dominant ethnie to restore its congruence with the nation. Assimilation to Protestantism and the English language could thereby lead to a retention of the ethnic boundary in the face of massive migratory transgression. The shift in source countries from the north and west to the south and east of Europe threatened to upset this national vision, as did the potential of large-scale Chinese immigration post-1864

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.sneps.net/OO/images/Kaufmann-Decline_WASP_USA_Canada.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiZ3suQl7r5AhXTkIkEHeWbALcQFnoECAIQAg&usg=AOvVaw0mqg-LIURs1efR0Kv6F4oX
Only a deracinated Yankee fantasist could unironically think that you can make 'Anglo-Saxons' out of Irish-German Americans, akin to Englishmen. It's been proven false by history, Germans and Irish have decisively helped move America away from its old character, and you as an Irish + German New Yorker could hardly be less British in your demeanour/language, which makes the larping all the more strange. Your modus operandi is to deny that the English are a distinct ethnicity, just because you aren't.


In Europe where the main language isn't English the Anglosphere is often referred to as 'Anglo-Saxon'. In particular it's the case in Germany, Russia, France. So someone like Donald Trump is Anglo-Saxon under that definition.
Well they're wrong, as usual. It's a specific term referring to the early English people. Nobody else.

[JamesBond007]

Only a deracinated Yankee fantasist could unironically think that you can make 'Anglo-Saxons' out of Irish-German Americans, akin to Englishmen. It's been proven false by history, Germans and Irish have decisively helped move America away from its old character, and you as an Irish + German New Yorker could hardly be less British in your demeanour/language, which makes the larping all the more strange. Your modus operandi is to deny that the English are a distinct ethnicity, just because you aren't.

.



How is this for language mate ? :

At the end of the day you're absolutely bonkers and utterly incorrect :


Prince Charles has German ancestry through both his mother, Queen Elizabeth II, and his father, Prince Philip. Both parents share Queen Victoria as a great-great-grandmother (which means they are distant cousins).

Queen Victoria's mother, the duchess of Kent, was born in Germany; Queen Victoria's husband was German-born Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Hence the German ancestral connection.

*************

Anne of Cleves (German: Anna von Kleve; 1515 – 16 July 1557)[2] was Queen of England from 6 January to 12 July 1540 as the fourth wife of King Henry VIII.[2] Not much is known about Anne before 1527, when she became betrothed to Francis, Duke of Bar, son and heir of Antoine, Duke of Lorraine, although their marriage did not proceed. In March 1539, negotiations for Anne's marriage to Henry began, as Henry believed that he needed to form a political alliance with her brother, William, who was a leader of the Protestants of western Germany, to strengthen his position against potential attacks from Catholic France and the Holy Roman Empire Anne was born in 1515, on either 22 September,[2][7] or more probably 28 June.[8] She was born in Düsseldorf,[9] the second daughter of John III of the House of La Marck, Duke of Jülich jure uxoris, Cleves, Berg jure uxoris, Count of Mark, also known as de la Marck and Ravensberg jure uxoris (often referred to as Duke of Cleves) who died in 1538, and his wife Maria, Duchess of Jülich-Berg (1491–1543). She grew up in Schloss Burg on the edge of Solingen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Cleves

[JamesBond007]

Only a deracinated Yankee fantasist could unironically think that you can make 'Anglo-Saxons' out of Irish-German Americans, akin to Englishmen. It's been proven false by history, Germans and Irish have decisively helped move America away from its old character, and you as an Irish + German New Yorker could hardly be less British in your demeanour/language, which makes the larping all the more strange. Your modus operandi is to deny that the English are a distinct ethnicity, just because you aren't.



You are just a bitter Scotsmen but unfortunately for your mentally retarded ass I know history.

[Ratmir]

Well they're wrong, as usual. It's a specific term referring to the early English people. Nobody else.
I think what those non-Americans mean by Anglo-Saxon would be more properly described as WASP. Would you not agree that for example the Rockefeller family can be rightly considered WASP? Their progenitor was from Germany, I believe. And that's arguably the most influential American family of all times.

[JamesBond007]

I think what those non-Americans mean by Anglo-Saxon would be more properly described as WASP. Would you not agree that for example the Rockefeller family can be rightly considered WASP? Their progenitor was from Germany, I believe. And that's arguably the most influential American family of all times.

He is being autistic and he is straight retarded. The main Germanic peoples that invaded England were Saxons and Danes but they invited some other Germanic tribes over for example Swaffham England :

Swaefas was the name of a powerful Germanic tribe who settled in East Anglia with the incoming Saxons after the Romans had left. It is from this origin that the town got its name – Swaffham.

The term Swaefas sounds like it stems from Suebi or Swabian.

[Ratmir]

He is being autistic and he is straight retarded. The main Germanic peoples that invaded England were Saxons and Danes but they invited some other Germanic tribes over for example Swaffham England :

Swaefas was the name of a powerful Germanic tribe who settled in East Anglia with the incoming Saxons after the Romans had left. It is from this origin that the town got its name – Swaffham.

The term Swaefas sounds like it stems from Suebi or Swabian.
Well, I'm not claiming a half Danish, half Irish person should be considered English, that'd be absurd just on the face of it. But the point is in America some non-British ancestry would have entered the American gene pool very early on and I can understand why to the rest of the world those multigenerational American Joneses, Smiths and Robertsons are just "Anglos". In the same way Eastern Europe is often treated as a Slavic monolith.

[J. Ketch]

I think what those non-Americans mean by Anglo-Saxon would be more properly described as WASP. Would you not agree that for example the Rockefeller family can be rightly considered WASP? Their progenitor was from Germany, I believe. And that's arguably the most influential American family of all times.
WASP is an Americanism that has no natural currency elsewhere, and I don't use it. It was made-up in the mid 20th century by US sociologists to describe their founding stock protestant elite, so by that definition the Rockefeller's define it. It doesn't make sense for the acronym, but Americans have never cared for accuracy - the Rockefeller origin is in Germany but not in the Anglo-Saxon homeland. The term is practically applied to all wealthy NW European-descended protestants, even if they have little to do with Anglo-Saxons in heritage.

I dislike the way Americans and continental Europeans use 'Anglo-Saxon' for their own purposes. What they're describing is something else in reality. To tell the truth you have to be accurate in your basic terminology, otherwise everything you say is founded on bs.