Are Alpines reduced Meds or Cro Magnons?

[Oliver109]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.

[Septentrion]

No. The Alpine race of Western and Central Europe reduced Cro-Magnids. One of the greatest characteristic of the Alpine is brachycephaly or hyper - brachycephaly, which lacks almost altogether in the Mediterranean race. The Alpine bodily proportions and dimensions are greater than that of the Mediterranean. Even the relative span of Alpines is much greater than that of Mediterranean, similar to CM populations of Northern Europe. In the measurements of head and face, Alpines seem to be just a smaller replica of the blond Borreby race of Northern Europe. They are very different from any Mediterranean races ever studied.
Proto-Meds were proper slender-bodied and dolicephalic by excellence. This is completely different from Proto-Alpines.

[Septentrion]

The Alpine hair color also shows the difference, as it lack the the black hair which is common and dominates some Mediterranean sub-racial types. The Mediterranean hair color direction is usually from dark brown to black. On the other hand, the Alpine hair color is from dark to medium brown with a slight reddish tinge to it. This Alpine hair color is found frequently in French, Swiss, northern Italian, Southern German, Czech populations.

[Septentrion]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.

The country with the highest frequency of Alpines per capita is Luxembourg. It’s nowhere close to any Mediterranean region. Although the purest Alpines were said to be found in Southern Germany.

[Creoda]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.
Neither, so-called Alpine dominance in Central Europe/France arose long after those areas were inhabited by pure Meds or Cro-Magnons.

[Oliver109]

Neither, so-called Alpine dominance in Central Europe/France arose long after those areas were inhabited by pure Meds or Cro-Magnons.

Were Alpines not from Turkey or Turkestan originally?

[Token]

Skulls that are clearly Alpine first appear in Europe during the Neolithic and always in conjunction with Meds. It was dominant in backward mountainous regions where Mesolithic cultural features persisted, and was outnumbered by Med skulls in regions where Mesolithic culture was practically erased by farmers. In other words, there was some correlation between the number of Alpine skulls and Mesolithic cultural survivals in the Neolithic cemeteries. Therefore the most probable explanation is that those Proto-Alpines of the Neolithic were a cross between Mesolithic hunters and incoming Mediterranean farmers. There are problems with this hypothesis, but it is better than the others.

[Russki]

Skulls that are clearly Alpine first appear in Europe during the Neolithic and always in conjunction with Meds. It was dominant in backward mountainous regions where Mesolithic cultural features persisted, and was outnumbered by Med skulls in regions where Mesolithic culture was practically erased by farmers. In other words, there was some correlation between the number of Alpine skulls and Mesolithic cultural survivals in the Neolithic cemeteries. Therefore the most probable explanation is that those Proto-Alpines of the Neolithic were a cross between Mesolithic hunters and incoming Mediterranean farmers. There are problems with this hypothesis, but it is better than the others.


I was going to say that Alpines developed when WHG mixed with Barcin_N.

[Token]

I was going to say that Alpines developed when WHG mixed with Barcin_N.

In genetic terms it would be basically this.

[Oliver109]

Skulls that are clearly Alpine first appear in Europe during the Neolithic and always in conjunction with Meds. It was dominant in backward mountainous regions where Mesolithic cultural features persisted, and was outnumbered by Med skulls in regions where Mesolithic culture was practically erased by farmers. In other words, there was some correlation between the number of Alpine skulls and Mesolithic cultural survivals in the Neolithic cemeteries. Therefore the most probable explanation is that those Proto-Alpines of the Neolithic were a cross between Mesolithic hunters and incoming Mediterranean farmers. There are problems with this hypothesis, but it is better than the others.

Thanks for your explanation, there are many alpine looking types in Wales for example but they tend towards less short heads, it seems in a sense parrallel to what has happened further east where meds have mixed with Brunn or Borreby like Cro Magnons Wales being a seat of the mediterranean race.

[Septentrion]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.

Alpines are reduced Borrebies not Mediterraneans! This European type seem to have developed in European mountainous regions, perhaps it has to do with adaptation to higher altitudes in Europe. Alpine moderate head size is derived from that. They are not a reduced Mediterranean as Mediterranean themselves are small. This race is virtually absent in the British Isles. Most British «Alpines» are for the most part, Borreby in race. She is connected to Gorid race in Eastern Europe, to an extent the Lappish race of the far-north.

[Oliver109]

Alpines are reduced Borrebies not Mediterraneans! This European type seem to have developed in European mountainous regions, perhaps it has to do with adaptation to higher altitudes in Europe. Alpine moderate head size is derived from that. They are not a reduced Mediterranean as Mediterranean themselves are small. This race is virtually absent in the British Isles. Most British «Alpines» are for the most part, Borreby in race. She is connected to Gorid race in Eastern Europe, to an extent the Lappish race of the far-north.

Alpines are morphologically more similar to Lapps but with key differences, their heads are slightly longer, their faces are more gracile and finely featured, Lapps tend to have more bulky and flat faces and bone structure.

[Septentrion]

Alpines are morphologically more similar to Lapps but with key differences, their heads are slightly longer, their faces are more gracile and finely featured, Lapps tend to have more bulky and flat faces and bone structure.

Very comprehensive. Lappish is perhaps bulkier and flatter-faced due to adaptation to a harsher environment than that of Alpines.

[Septentrion]

Thanks for your explanation, there are many alpine looking types in Wales for example but they tend towards less short heads, it seems in a sense parrallel to what has happened further east where meds have mixed with Brunn or Borreby like Cro Magnons Wales being a seat of the mediterranean race.

For you to be more relieved in your quest for the Alpine race in the North. There is minor occurrence of the Alpine in the form of a type that usually occur in the fringes of Northern Europe. A type tagged as «Strandid» does occur in the very north in populations of Western Finland to Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and Iceland.
Strandids are for the most part mixed and not common. Nevertheless they do occur.

[Oliver109]

For you to be more relieved in your quest for the Alpine race in the North. There is minor occurrence of the Alpine in the form of a type that usually occur in the fringes of Northern Europe. A type tagged as «Strandid» does occur in the very north in populations of Western Finland to Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and Iceland.
Strandids are for the most part mixed and not common. Nevertheless they do occur.

Yeah, heard about them, they are a little more robust than central Euro alpines but have basically the same morphology.

[Septentrion]

Neither, so-called Alpine dominance in Central Europe/France arose long after those areas were inhabited by pure Meds or Cro-Magnons.

Correct. The Alpine seems to be an evolved Borreby or CM so to speak.

[Oliver109]

Correct. The Alpine seems to be an evolved Borreby or CM so to speak.

I don't know, probably stemmed from an ancestor of all CM types before they split into their various forms, i think originally they looked like Lapps but intermixing with Meds lead to a more stabilized form.

[Septentrion]

I don't know, probably stemmed from an ancestor of all CM types before they split into their various forms, i think originally they looked like Lapps but intermixing with Meds lead to a more stabilized form.

Possibly, a Scandinavian Lappish racial form had been reported by anthropologists in the inland regions of Bretagne ( France). You might be right, I am not discarding you. However, the Alpine lacks the swarthy characteristic of the Mediterranean. For that reason, I have a hard time connecting the two.

[Oliver109]

Possibly a Scandinavian Lappish racial form had been reported by anthropologists in the inland regions of Bretagne ( France). You might be right, I am not discarding you. However, the Alpine lacks the swarthy characteristic of the Mediterranean.

Alpines were said to be brunet white by C Coon so generally white still, they don't freckle that much compared to brunns and often borrebies and their complexions often tend to warmness wherever you find them i.e in Bavaria, in Turkey, etc You are right about Brittany though many people there have very small slanted eyes quite typical of Lapps, as indeed a lot of northern French do.

[Token]

Alpines were said to be brunet white by C Coon so generally white still, they don't freckle that much compared to brunns and often borrebies and their complexions often tend to warmness wherever you find them i.e in Bavaria, in Turkey, etc You are right about Brittany though many people there have very small slanted eyes quite typical of Lapps, as indeed a lot of northern French do.

Alpines are generally intermediate in pigmentation. Medium brown hair and mixed eyes is the most typical combination. Most are pinkish white skinned in unexposed skin rather than brunet white.

[Oliver109]

Alpines are generally intermediate in pigmentation. Medium brown hair and mixed eyes is the most typical combination. Most are pinkish white skinned in unexposed skin rather than brunet white.

Correct, Coon often alternated in using the terms Brunet white and pinkish white, he spoke of the Lebanese as having a pinkish white skinned minority but the mountain Tajiks as having brunet white skin generally though in all truth they are both about as light as each other when it comes to skin pigmentation.

[Token]

Correct, Coon often alternated in using the terms Brunet white and pinkish white, he spoke of the Lebanese as having a pinkish white skinned minority but the mountain Tajiks as having brunet white skin generally though in all truth they are both about as light as each other when it comes to skin pigmentation.

There is a pinkish white minority in all fully caucasoid populations, but it is only a majority in Europe (except in the far south).

[Septentrion]

Correct, Coon often alternated in using the terms Brunet white and pinkish white, he spoke of the Lebanese as having a pinkish white skinned minority but the mountain Tajiks as having brunet white skin generally though in all truth they are both about as light as each other when it comes to skin pigmentation.

Lebanese? Not. The Lebanese are mostly dark, usually olive-skinned. The pinkish-white color is much more of European characteristics than anything. Tajiks are a bunch of Iranian-speakers.

[Septentrion]

The Alpine into Europe, came from an eastward direction not a southward like the Mediterranean. No wonder, they are different.

[Oliver109]

Lebanese? Not. The Lebanese are mostly dark, usually olive-skinned. The pinkish-white color is much more of European characteristics than anything. Tajiks are a bunch of Iranian-speakers.

There is an alpine and alpine med minority in Lebanon and among the Druze, they are often as light as the French but with a middle eastern expression.

[Septentrion]

There is an alpine and alpine med minority in Lebanon and among the Druze, they are often as light as the French but with a middle eastern expression.

You must be aware that there is a difference between the Western and Central European Alpine type and that of West Asia. They might be similar but have differences. There is also an Eastern European Alpine type ( Gorid) with more East Europid admixture. In Asiatic Alpine, the skin is slightly darker than the European Alpines and the height is higher. It is most common in the mountainous areas of Anatolia to the north of Syria and Iraq not so much Tajikistan as Coon thought. See.

[Oliver109]

You must be aware that there is a difference between the Western and Central European Alpine type and that of West Asia. They might be similar but have differences. See. There is also an Eastern European Alpine type ( Gorid) with more East Europid admixture. In Asiatic Alpine, the skin is slightly darker than the European Alpines and the height is higher.

Asiatic alpines are barely if any darker than European alpines, if you study the Pamiris of Tajikistan who are the least altered alpines outside southern France they are basically the same in pigmentation and have something like a 25% minority of lighter eyes and brown hair.

[Septentrion]

There is also a blond minority within the Western European Alpine not to be ignored. As it is a replica of blonder type called the Borreby.

[Oliver109]

There is also a blond minority within the Western European Alpine not to be ignored. As it is a replica of blonder type called the Borreby.

They are quite rare, in France you only get a lot of blonde alpines in the Pas de Calais where there is a lot of germanic influence, they are rarer in the centre of France.

[Septentrion]

Asiatic alpines are barely if any darker than European alpines, if you study the Pamiris of Tajikistan who are the least altered alpines outside southern France they are basically the same in pigmentation and have something like a 25% minority of lighter eyes and brown hair.

They are darker than European Alpine mean. In fact they actually have a strong Middle-Eastern flair and are clearly non-European looking. I don’t know what you mean by “dark”, to be darker than the European Alpine, you don’t have to only be dark as Negroes or Southern Indians.

A great example of a Pamiri;
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/tajikistan/farangees.jpg
This is clearly a Middle-Easterner.

A great example of the French Alpine race
https://resize-public.ladmedia.fr/img/var/public/storage/images/toutes-les-photos/photos-emmanuelle-beart-s-est-mariee-retour-sur-l-evolution-physique-de-la-comedienne-1491068/1491069/38874725-1-fre-FR/image.jpg

[Oliver109]

They are darker than European Alpine mean. In fact they actually have a strong Middle-Eastern flair and are clearly non-European looking. I don’t know what you mean by “dark”, to be darker than the European Alpine, you don’t have to only be dark as Negroes or Southern Indians.

Well a lot of these people are pretty much like Poles or the French in their pigmentation except for hair colour, not that pale but rosy white

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oltr2k9etAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqu9yxxJkQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYOFeu8uTIQ

[Septentrion]

Well a lot of these people are pretty much like Poles or the French in their pigmentation except for hair colour, not that pale but rosy white

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oltr2k9etAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqu9yxxJkQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYOFeu8uTIQ

These people look more like Turks or Georgians than they do French or Polish people. These are not Europeans by any stretch. Unless you are trying to make me laugh. Which I am, right now.

[Oliver109]

These people look more like Turks or Georgians than they do French or Polish people. These are not Europeans by any stretch. Unless you are trying to make me laugh. Which I am, right now.

They are often light skinned though and brachy which means that they are not drastically different from their European counterparts, they are like Europeans.

[Western Citizen]

In genetic terms it would be basically this.

What about nordics in genetic terms?

[Token]

What about nordics in genetic terms?

Carleton Coon:

The Bronze Age population which was thus the ancestral Nordic one was in turn derived from a mixture between the local Danubian Neolithic people, who came from the east, and the later Corded invaders.

Genetics recently has shown that Scandinavians are a mixture of Corded Ware pastoralists from the steppe and Neolithic Europeans. Just one among many examples where (competent) anthropologists hit the nail on the head.

[Western Citizen]

Carleton Coon:

The Bronze Age population which was thus the ancestral Nordic one was in turn derived from a mixture between the local Danubian Neolithic people, who came from the east, and the later Corded invaders.

Genetics recently has shown that Scandinavians are a mixture of Corded Ware pastoralists from the steppe and Neolithic Europeans. Just one among many examples where (competent) anthropologists hit the nail on the head.

I once saw a theory that Samara HG was the primary nordic who brought typical nordic pigmentation traits to Scandinavian HG and Aryans (Indo-Europeans). What do you think of this?

[Token]

I once saw a theory that Samara HG was the primary nordic who brought typical nordic pigmentation traits to Scandinavian HG and Aryans (Indo-Europeans). What do you think of this?

Blond hair originated among ANE. Oldest blond haired individual is Afontova Gora 3 from eastern Siberia. It was then passed onto EHG, who passed it onto early Indo-Europeans and the rest is history.

The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual AfontovaGora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135616.DC1/135616-1.pdf

[Septentrion]

They are quite rare, in France you only get a lot of blonde alpines in the Pas de Calais where there is a lot of germanic influence, they are rarer in the centre of France.

FYI, the relatively high frequency of blondness in France is not limited to the Pas-de-Calais region, you should include the entire northeast, Normandy and Bretagne, as well as an enclave in Burgundy. Anyway, as a whole, 26% of French people are blond or fair. This is higher than in any Mediterranean population. The frequency for blond hair in Turkey is 4% and much lower elsewhere in West Asia.

[reboun]

Reduced Cro Magnons.

[Septentrion]

They are often light skinned though and brachy which means that they are not drastically different from their European counterparts, they are like Europeans.

Yes, most likely. I don’t refute what you said. However being fair-skinned is the norm in France and most of Europe. Nothing out of the ordinary. In France, you have hyper-brachycephaly. No many nations may be more Alpine in race in the world than France.

[Western Citizen]

Blond hair originated among ANE. Oldest blond haired individual is Afontova Gora 3 from eastern Siberia. It was then passed onto EHG, who passed it onto early Indo-Europeans and the rest is history.

The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual AfontovaGora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135616.DC1/135616-1.pdf

Yes, exactly what I thought. Just that blonde hair (and maybe ginger) was in northeast Europe before Indo European incursion, because Samara HG mixed with European HG to produce blonde haired people in Scandinavia.

[Oliver109]

FYI, the relatively high frequency of blondness in France is not limited to the Pas-de-Calais region, you should include the entire northeast, Normandy and Bretagne, as well as an enclave in Burgundy. Anyway, as a whole, 26% of French people are blond or fair. This is higher than in any Mediterranean population. The frequency for blond hair in Turkey is 4% and much lower elsewhere in West Asia.

Basically the further away from Calais and Lille you get the less blonde people are, even Paris is much more brunet than Lille and that is before you get to the Massif centrale, blonde hair in France has nothing to do with alpines, it is almost entirely of keltic, hallstatt and borreby deviation.

[Guti]

Blond hair was also present among the CHG/Iran_ChL proto-IEans who lived in Kurdistan before some of them decided to move into the Steppes. Because proto-Indo-European CHG/Iran_ChL people from Kurdistan already had ~22% of ANE ancestry.
In the Steppes they mixed with the EHG people who had even more blond hair than themselves.


ANE was present in the Caucasus/Iranian Plateau thousands of years before ANE reached Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/FzbCCmtc/MA.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/gjGHJZ5X/Iran-N.jpg

[Guti]

6,500 years ago there was also a big migration from Kurdistan into the Levant. Those people who moved into the Levant/Israel had blue eyes and fair skin among them.


DNA analysis showed that skeletons preserved in the cave were genetically distinct from people who historically lived in that region. And some of the genetic differences matched those of people who lived in neighboring Anatolia and the Zagros Mountains, which are now part of Turkey and Iran, the study found.


Blue eyes and fair skin

The scientists found that these individuals shared genetic features with people from the north, and those similar genes were absent in farmers who lived in the southern Levant earlier. For example, the allele (one of two or more alternative forms of a gene) that is responsible for blue eyes was associated with 49 percent of the sampled remains, suggesting that blue eyes had become common in people living in Upper Galilee. Another allele hinted that fair skin may have been widespread in the local population as well, the study authors wrote.


https://www.livescience.com/63396-ancient-israel-immigration-turkey-iran.html

[Guti]

Anomalous blue-eyed people came to Israel 6,500 years ago from Iran, DNA shows

In the article, "Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation," the scientists concluded that the homogeneous community found in the cave could source ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic, and ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic.

"The genetic analysis provided an answer to the central question we set out to address," said Harvard's Reich. "It showed that the Peki' in people had substantial ancestry from northerners – similar to those living in Iran and Turkey – that was not present in earlier Levantine farmers."


https://www.timesofisrael.com/anomalous-blue-eyed-people-came-to-israel-6500-years-ago-from-iran-dna-shows/

[Septentrion]

Basically the further away from Calais and Lille you get the less blonde people are, even Paris is much more brunet than Lille and that is before you get to the Massif centrale, blonde hair in France has nothing to do with alpines, it is almost entirely of keltic, hallstatt and borreby deviation.

You cannot leave the entire strong frequency of blondness in the Northern French to the Nord-Pas-de-Calais area. Normandy is one the blondest region of France due to the historical Viking connection, has also a high frequency of the I1a Y-DNA. The phenotype most prevalent in Northern France is not the Alpine but the Sub-nordid ( Nordic + Alpine mix). By Northern France, I mean Bretagne, Normandie, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Picardie, Franche-Comté, Ardennes, Alsace and Lorraine. In these regions , the fair hair proportion is far above 30%. Northeastern France blondness approaches the regions of bordering countries. The Paris region or properly Ile-de-France is the exception as it is one of the darkest regions in France. Reason for this are historical dating from the Roman colonial times. It had a stronger Roman occupation than surrounding areas as it became an important center. Another exception is the enclave of blondness in Central France in northern Burgundy.The Alpine brunet color takes an intermediate position between the blond Nordid or CM type and the Mediterranean types of the south. The frequency of black hair in France outside the Mediterranean south, is never equal to that of Southern Europe. This is precisely due to the strong influence of the Alpine race.

[Oliver109]

You cannot leave the entire strong frequency of blondness in the Northern French to the Nord-Pas-de-Calais area. Normandy is one the blondest region of France due to the historical Viking connection, has also a high frequency of the I1a Y-DNA. The phenotype most prevalent in Northern France is not the Alpine but the Sub-nordid ( Nordic + Alpine mix). By Northern France, I mean Bretagne, Normandie, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Picardie, Franche-Comté, Ardennes, Alsace and Lorraine. In these regions , the fair hair proportion is far above 30%. Northeastern France blondness approaches the regions of bordering countries. The Paris region or properly Ile-de-France is the exception as it is one of the darkest regions in France. Reason for this are historical dating from the Roman colonial times. It had a stronger Roman occupation than surrounding areas as it became an important center. Another exception is the enclave of blondness in Central France in northern Burgundy.The Alpine brunet color takes an intermediate position between the blond Nordid or CM type and the Mediterranean types of the south. The frequency of black hair in France outside the Mediterranean south, is never equal to that of Southern Europe. This is precisely due to the strong influence of the Alpine race.

Pas de Calais is blonder than Normandie, alpines were always brown haired instead of black haired and often wavy or curly haired as well

[Septentrion]

Pas de Calais is blonder than Normandie, alpines were always brown haired instead of black haired and often wavy or curly haired as well

The difference is not great at all between Normandie and Pas-de-Calais are not great at all. Pas-de-Calais has the “edge” on Normandie as it has not just blondes but way more gingers ( especially women) as well. Although the difference in the ratio of darker hair is pretty similar.

[Oliver109]

The difference is not great at all between Normandie and Pas-de-Calais are not great at all. Pas-de-Calais has the “edge” on Normandie as it has not just blondes but way more gingers ( especially women) as well. Although the difference in the ratio of darker hair is pretty similar.

You might be right, there are a lot of gingers in Pas de Calais so maybe that is what makes the region look lighter, it is still the blondest region though being maybe only 5-10% darker haired than Kent, the Flemish in Antwerp are significantly blonder still and you see blondeness of a Nordic purity on a regular basis.

[Septentrion]

You might be right, there are a lot of gingers in Pas de Calais so maybe that is what makes the region look lighter, it is still the blondest region though being maybe only 5-10% darker haired than Kent, the Flemish in Antwerp are significantly blonder still and you see blondeness of a Nordic purity on a regular basis.

Calais, Lille, Douai, I have lived there briefly in my childhood. This part of France was historically part of Flanders. Flemish was still spoken in these parts for a while, now only a small minority does.
Still, the average Frenchman characteristics are : Hyper-brachycephaly + medium height + endomorph +
fair skin + brown hair + mixed or brown eyes ( fits in the great stubborn Alpine race of West and Central Europe).

[Oliver109]

Calais, Lille, Douai, I have lived there briefly in my childhood. This part of France was historically part of Flanders. Flemish was still spoken in these parts for a while, now only a small minority does.
Still, the average Frenchman characteristics are : Hyper-brachycephaly + medium height + endomorph +
fair skin + brown hair + mixed or brown eyes ( fits in the great stubborn Alpine race of West and Central Europe).

Interesting you lived in N France, which part of Belgian flanders are you from?

[Septentrion]

Interesting you lived in N France, which part of Belgian flanders are you from?

Turnhout, Antwerp province. Although I have lived and studied in many, many places.

[placebo]

alpine = something like soft cm imo

[Oliver109]

Turnhout, Antwerp province. Although I have lived and studied in many, many places.

Interesting so quite a nordic part of Flanders

[Septentrion]

Normandie is 60%-65% fair-haired. Very few places in France can boast to be even as fair.

[Septentrion]

Interesting so quite a nordic part of Flanders

Oh well, I fit with the Borreby type.

[Oliver109]

Oh well, I fit with the Borreby type.

You sound typically Flemish by your description, btw i think that Normandy is darker than is made out to be, this thread shows Normans to be similiar to people from Champagne and Picardy
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197195-Common-Norman-phenotypes

[Septentrion]

You sound typically Flemish by your description, btw i think that Normandy is darker than is made out to be, this thread shows Normans to be similiar to people from Champagne and Picardy
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197195-Common-Norman-phenotypes

Normans might be pretty fair in France, but it doesn’t make them Scandinavians either. The 60%-65% fair hair ( light blond to medium brown shades), not strictly blond shades.

[Septentrion]

You sound typically Flemish by your description, btw i think that Normandy is darker than is made out to be, this thread shows Normans to be similiar to people from Champagne and Picardy
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197195-Common-Norman-phenotypes

The Nordid is present in Flanders, but there is a very strong Borreby undertone in our population as a whole. As well as additional Alpine and Subnordid remnants. This is what mainly differentiates us from the English.

[Oliver109]

The Nordid is present in Flanders, but there is a very strong Borreby undertone in our population as a whole. As well as additional Alpine and Subnordid remnants. This is what mainly differentiates us from the English.

True, you lot are bigger headed but i think where the Flemish stick out even from the English is in robusticity, they are quite a tall robust lot and similar to western Germans and southern Dutch.

[Septentrion]

True, you lot are bigger headed but i think where the Flemish stick out even from the English is in robusticity, they are quite a tall robust lot and similar to western Germans and southern Dutch.

I am 6 feet 5.5 inches and 19.68 stone now. I was lighter in college in America where I played various sports. So I am pretty big. My father is 6 feet 2 inches and 17 stone. My male siblings are 6 feet 8 and 6 feet 4 respectively. Although I have seen many Englishmen who are rugby players just as big as I am.

[Septentrion]

The Nordic strain is weak in France due to the very strong presence of the Alpine race.

[Septentrion]

True, you lot are bigger headed but i think where the Flemish stick out even from the English is in robusticity, they are quite a tall robust lot and similar to western Germans and southern Dutch.

The French are just a smaller, darker version of Northern Germans.

[Roy]

They're reduced Cro-Magnons.

[Septentrion]

Pas de Calais is blonder than Normandie, alpines were always brown haired instead of black haired and often wavy or curly haired as well

Sorry dude. I was right. The fairest-haired department of France is Manche which is in Basse Normandie ( Lower Normandy) according to proper studies. Today, there might be many immigrants from Morocco, Italy, Portugal, Ivory Coast, etc…. However among ethnic French, it is as blond as it gets. Pas-de-Calais is the fifth fairest-haired, so not bad.

[Oliver109]

Sorry dude. I was right. The fairest-haired department of France is Manche which is in Basse Normandie ( Lower Normandy) according to proper studies. Today, there might be many immigrants from Morocco, Italy, Portugal, Ivory Coast, etc…. However among ethnic French, it is as blond as it gets. Pas-de-Calais is the fifth fairest-haired, so not bad.

I take your word man, i just find it hard to believe that Pas De Calais is less blonde as it is so close to Kent and Belgium

[Septentrion]

I take your word man, i just find it hard to believe that Pas De Calais is less blonde as it is so close to Kent and Belgium

It is still the fifth out of so many departments. Although Scandinavian or Saxon blood is higher in frequency in Normandy area.

[Oliver109]

It is still the fifth out of so many departments. Although Scandinavian or Saxon blood is higher in frequency in Normandy area.

Do you have a link to the blonde stats bro?

[Septentrion]

Top 10 blondest departments of France:

Manche
Nord
Seine Maritime
Orne
Pas-de-Calais
Morbihan
Bas-Rhin & Haut Rhin
Eure-et-Loir
Meurthe-et-Moselle
Meuse

Number 1, 3, 4 are in Normandy.

[Septentrion]

You might be right, there are a lot of gingers in Pas de Calais so maybe that is what makes the region look lighter, it is still the blondest region though being maybe only 5-10% darker haired than Kent, the Flemish in Antwerp are significantly blonder still and you see blondeness of a Nordic purity on a regular basis.

A good example of a typical Flemish is Hella-June Henrard.
https://i.imgur.com/Y7aGeyd.jpg

[Oliver109]

A good example of a typical Flemish is Hella-June Henrard.
https://i.imgur.com/Y7aGeyd.jpg

Good and attractive example, do you find there is much difference between the Flemish and Germans from Aachen and Cologne?

[Septentrion]

No. Individually there is absolutely no difference. Although, as a whole Flemish are metrically more Nordid ( Iron Age wise).

[Oliver109]

No. Individually there is absolutely no difference. Although, as a whole Flemish are metrically more Nordid ( Iron Age wise).

That's interesting, always had the Germans down as being less pale and more Slavic shifted(in the whole country, not just the east)

[Token]

Good and attractive example, do you find there is much difference between the Flemish and Germans from Aachen and Cologne?

Flemish are basically Franconian Germans, there is no difference.

[Septentrion]

That's interesting, always had the Germans down as being less pale and more Slavic shifted(in the whole country, not just the east)

Overall Flemish and Germans aren’t so different. Remember the Borreby race enjoys a good frequency in both countries. Although lighter skin types (I) as what you might see more in the British Isles are definitely more common in Belgium than in Germany. This is expected as the Iron Age Nordid is much more common in Belgium. Besides that, these people are kinfolk.

[Septentrion]

Overall Flemish and Germans aren’t so different. Remember the Borreby race enjoys a good frequency in both countries. Although lighter skin types (I) as what you might see more in the British Isles are definitely more common in Belgium than in Germany. This is expected as the Iron Age Nordid is much more common in Belgium. Besides that, these people are kinfolk.

[Odelia]

Doesn't exist! Alpines are just overweight, short southeastern euros. If anything they're a ''reduced'' Slavs....short slavs!

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Oliver109;7574086]While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.[/QUOTE

Did you know that, there is much more chance for the Nordid race to have derived from the Mediterranean than the Alpine?

[Oliver109]

[QUOTE=Oliver109;7574086]While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.[/QUOTE

Did you know that, there is much more chance for the Nordid race to have derived from the Mediterranean than the Alpine?
I know but it was a robust form of the Med race similar to Kurds and Iranians, many native Londoners show such features in the appearance infact. Alpines are more similar to gracile meds in some cases but with wider faces and slightly higher cheekbones.

[Septentrion]

[QUOTE=Septentrion;7576978]
I know but it was a robust form of the Med race similar to Kurds and Iranians, many native Londoners show such features in the appearance infact. Alpines are more similar to gracile meds in some cases but with wider faces and slightly higher cheekbones.

You didn’t have to include Kurds and Iranians in the formation of the Nordid race of Northern Europe.

[Oliver109]

[QUOTE=Oliver109;7577134]

You didn’t have to include Kurds and Iranians in the formation of the Nordid race of Northern Europe.

Nordics originally came from Iran or Turkey

[Token]

I know but it was a robust form of the Med race similar to Kurds and Iranians, many native Londoners show such features in the appearance infact. Alpines are more similar to gracile meds in some cases but with wider faces and slightly higher cheekbones.



Nordics originally came from Iran or Turkey

Are you trolling or just straight up dumb?

[Western Citizen]

[QUOTE=Septentrion;7577181]

Nordics originally came from Iran or Turkey

Nordics just originated in Europe but their main origins are Samara EHGs. Thinking that anatolian wogs brought nordic traits is stupid.

[Oliver109]

Are you trolling or just straight up dumb?

I am dead serious but obviously they did not become depigmented until they reached the Eurasian Steppes.

[Token]

I am dead serious but obviously they did not become depigmented until they reached the Eurasian Steppes.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aD4V987_460s.jpg

[Western Citizen]

I am dead serious but obviously they did not become depigmented until they reached the Eurasian Steppes.

But of which population are you talking about?

[Oliver109]

But of which population are you talking about?

The Nordics separated from the Meds somewhere in the Steppes i think, most migrated to Russia and the Northwest, others ventured back towards Turkey, Iran and even the Pamir mountains, all of this would have been less than 10k years ago.

[Western Citizen]

The Nordics separated from the Meds somewhere in the Steppes i think, most migrated to Russia and the Northwest, others ventured back towards Turkey, Iran and even the Pamir mountains, all of this would have been less than 10k years ago.

That doesn't answer my question. Of which population are you talking about? Neolithic farmers? Indo-Europeans? Who? Your hypothesis doesn't correlate with genetics.

The nordic race is a result of northwestern eurasian populations, I don't really think that anatolians played anything here.

[Oliver109]

That doesn't answer my question. Of which population are you talking about? Neolithic farmers? Indo-Europeans? Who? Your hypothesis doesn't correlate with genetics.

The nordic race is a result of northwestern eurasian populations, I don't really think that anatolians played anything here.

Possibly Neolithic farmers of Indo Europeans, that is my guess but there is not much concrete evidence out there unfortunately.

[Western Citizen]

Possibly Neolithic farmers of Indo Europeans, that is my guess but there is not much concrete evidence out there unfortunately.

Doubtful theory, being truly honest here.

[Guti]

Johannes Krause is an academic. He talks here about the origin of the white skin in Europe. Watch it from minute 47:50


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4DNpMAf3aI

[Oliver109]

Johannes Krause is an academic. He talks here about the origin of the white skin in Europe. Watch it from minute 47:50


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4DNpMAf3aI

I don't really buy what that darker than average German is saying, i think that the earliest lighter skin goes back maybe 12-17000 years though the original west Europeans were darker.

[Guti]

I don't really buy what that darker than average German is saying, i think that the earliest lighter skin goes back maybe 12-17000 years though the original west Europeans were darker.Ok, but keep in mind that until the end of the the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), Northern Europe and other northern parts of the Eurasia were like Antarctica or something. Not many (if any) people lived there. And even to this day the population of Scandinavia is very, very low compared to Southern Europe.

Even today in the whole Scandinavia live less than 25 million people. There are mega cities on this planet that have a bigger population only in 1 city.


LGM ended let say 15000 years ago. Around 15000 years ago, humans started to settle in Scandinavia.


https://i.postimg.cc/c443dWtR/Global-Glacial-Coverage-During-the-LGM.jpg

[Oliver109]

Ok, but keep in mind that until the end of the the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), Northern Europe and other northern parts of the Eurasia were like Antarctica or something. Not many (if any) people lived there. And even to this day the population of Scandinavia is very, very low compared to Southern Europe.

Even today in the whole Scandinavia live less than 25 million people. There are mega cities on this planet that have a bigger population only in 1 city.


LGM ended let say 15000 years ago. Around 15000 years ago, humans started to settle in Scandinavia.


https://i.postimg.cc/c443dWtR/Global-Glacial-Coverage-During-the-LGM.jpg

North Euros probably lived in the region of the Steppes at the time, light skin seemed to have more than one source, you have the proto Alpines who developed light skin in the region of the Caucasus or around Turkey, the Proto Nordics who also developed light skin and various hunter gatherer groups, there is more than one gene for light skin.

[Septentrion]

The Nordics separated from the Meds somewhere in the Steppes i think, most migrated to Russia and the Northwest, others ventured back towards Turkey, Iran and even the Pamir mountains, all of this would have been less than 10k years ago.

No. The formation of the Nordid race ( in terms of pigmentation, bodily proportions and dimensions) as we know it today was in Central Europe, not in Asia. People who came from the Pontic Steppes were not of the Nordic race as we know it.

[Oliver109]

No. The formation of the Nordid race ( in terms of pigmentation, bodily proportions and dimensions) as we know it today was in Central Europe, not in Asia. People who came from the Pontic Steppes were not of the Nordic race as we know it.

They settled in C Europe but their origins were further east, don't forget the Tarim mummies, they had Nordid traits

[Septentrion]

They settled in C Europe but their origins were further east, don't forget the Tarim mummies, they had Nordid traits

Tarim people came from further west, didn’t they?

[Septentrion]

I don't really buy what that darker than average German is saying, i think that the earliest lighter skin goes back maybe 12-17000 years though the original west Europeans were darker.

Skin color today is lighter among Germanic people ( Danish or Germans, etc….) of NW Europe is lighter than what would be average in Western Asia. NW Europe has the lightest skin color on average.

[Septentrion]

Interesting so quite a nordic part of Flanders

Yes, it is the blondest part of Belgium ( over 50% fair-haired and over 65% light-eyed) and the cephalic index is the second lowest as well.

[Oliver109]

Yes, it is the blondest part of Belgium ( over 50% fair-haired and over 65% light-eyed) and the cephalic index is the second lowest as well.

Belgium is more divided in terms of blondeness than most European countries, looking at pictures of some Walloons light blonde hair is a lot rarer.

[Septentrion]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.

In Belgium, we clearly see that the Alpinid race of West & Central Europe is clearly a reduced form of the Borreby of the north. As both these Europid races meet in the south ( Wallonia), leading what is known as the «Walloon type» by some physical anthropologists. Although the Borreby is pretty dominant in Wallonia, the southernmost province Luxembourg population has been shown to be quite Alpinid in race. Additionally, the Luxembourg province average cephalic index is the highest in Belgium. The higher cephalic index distances the Alpinid race from the Mediterranean. The Alpinid is even more brachycephalic than the Borreby. The most racially Alpinid regions of Europe do not really border the Mediterranean regions. Central France, Southern Germany and Luxembourg are very Alpinid in race.

[Septentrion]

Belgium is more divided in terms of blondeness than most European countries, looking at pictures of some Walloons light blonde hair is a lot rarer.

Yes light or medium blond is less common among Walloons than with the Flemish due to less Nordid blood. However red hair is more common in Wallonia than in Flanders, showing stronger CM admixture. Overall Wallonia is still lighter than France as no province in Wallonia scores below 30% for fair hair.

[Tchek]

A good example of a typical Flemish is Hella-June Henrard.
https://i.imgur.com/Y7aGeyd.jpg

Henrard is a very typical Walloon name.

[Septentrion]

Henrard is a very typical Walloon name.

So? Your point is?
She is Flemish, dude. Some Flemish or Dutch people have French names.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Alpines are just fat people.

[Tchek]

So? Your point is?
She is Flemish, dude. Some Flemish or Dutch people have French names.

I find funny that a woman with a Walloon name (rare outside the Liège area, and absolutely NOT a french name) is an example of "typically flemish".

[Septentrion]

I find funny that a woman with a Walloon name (rare outside the Liège area, and absolutely NOT a french name) is an example of "typically flemish".

Nothing to get alarmed about. It is an individual example, as she shows phenotypical components of the Iron Age Nordid race which in Belgium is more common in Flanders than in Wallonia. This doesn’t mean that all Flemish with Walloon or French names look Nordid either or don’t. Our country is a small country, you shouldn’t exaggerate the difference between a Flemish and a Walloon either. The main phenotypical difference between Flanders and Wallonia is that there is slightly more Nordid in Flanders and slightly more Borreby in Wallonia. It is not like you comparing a pure Nordid vs a pure Mediterranean either. Both Flemish and Walloons are within a relatively small area.

[Septentrion]

While linked to the CM race alpines often show features more characteristic of meds like more gracile features, delicate facial features and smaller faces, the fact that alpines are nearly always found in regions peripheral to Mediterraneans also suggests that they might well originate from a proto med.

Alpines or Alpinids are Proper Europeans. They are neither Nordic in race, nor are they Mediterranean. They do not follow the extremes of either types. They are True intermediates on the European racial scale. It is the race of Central or the «heart of Europe».

[Activateur]

They are True intermediates on the European racial scale.

between what?

[Septentrion]

The Alpine race is the true intermediate between the very light races of Northern Europe and the very dark races of Southern Europe. It is Europe’s heart race.

[Activateur]

The Alpine race is the true intermediate between the very light races of Northern Europe and the very dark races of Southern Europe. It is Europe’s heart race.

You sure it ain't between mongoloid and caucasoid?

If we are considering Atlantids and Nordids as fully caucasoid, then the alpines and dinarids who look nothing alike to them, maybe are the eurasian hybrids? have you never thought about that?

Srsly, alpines look like an atlantid after facial reconstruction surgery, as if he tried to cobain himself with a shootgun then survived then the doctors tried to repair his face, but nose,jaw, brow ridge area was still fucked up, so he got some implants to reconstruct it, and bam you got an alpine. This is why alpines look kinda ugly to me, well almost all the caucaso-mongolo hybrids, they look like facial reconstruction people honestly. Now I found out why I was disgusted by them.

[Septentrion]

You sure it ain't between mongoloid and caucasoid?

If we are considering Atlantids and Nordids as fully caucasoid, then the alpines and dinarids who look nothing alike to them, maybe are the eurasian hybrids? have you never thought about that?

Srsly, alpines look like an atlantid after facial reconstruction surgery, as if he tried to cobain himself with a shootgun then survived then the doctors tried to repair his face, but nose,jaw, brow ridge area was still fucked up, so he got some implants to reconstruct it, and bam you got an alpine. This is why alpines look kinda ugly to me, well almost all the caucaso-mongolo hybrids, they look like facial reconstruction people honestly. Now I found out why I was disgusted by them.

You must be Mongoloid then. The Nordid is the extreme Caucasoid or ultimate or “perfect” Europid ( blond or ginger, very fair or pale white skin, with or without freckles, blue or green eyes or a mixture of both,long-headed, narrow, fine facial features, slender build, tall stature). The Atlantid is not race, but a hybrid due to mixture or intermixture between the Nordid ( especially Keltic) and the Atlanto- Mediterranean races. Yes, the Atlantid is full Caucasoid hybrid racial type. The Alpinid has nothing to do with the Atlantid, sorry dude.

Alpine are ugly? Since when?

Brigitte Bardot of France is Alpine! She was good-looking when in her youth.
https://www.doctormacro.com/Images/Bardot,%20Brigitte/Annex/Annex%20-%20Bardot,%20Brigitte_06.jpg

[Oliver109]

You must be Mongoloid then. The Nordid is the extreme Caucasoid or ultimate or “perfect” Europid ( blond or ginger, very fair or pale white skin, with or without freckles, blue or green eyes or a mixture of both,long-headed, narrow, fine facial features, slender build, tall stature). The Atlantid is not race, but a hybrid due to mixture or intermixture between the Nordid ( especially Keltic) and the Atlanto- Mediterranean races. Yes, the Atlantid is full Caucasoid hybrid racial type. The Alpinid has nothing to do with the Atlantid, sorry dude.

Alpine are ugly? Since when?

Brigitte Bardot of France is Alpine! She was good-looking when in her youth.
https://www.doctormacro.com/Images/Bardot,%20Brigitte/Annex/Annex%20-%20Bardot,%20Brigitte_06.jpg

Alpines tend to plainness i think, though their features are generally quite pleasing but they don't generally have the more striking looks of Nordics, Brunns, faelids and tronders. I actually notice more good looking people in a Nordic region as opposed to an alpine one i.e London or Antwerp compared to Paris.

[Septentrion]

Alpines tend to plainness i think, though their features are generally quite pleasing but they don't generally have the more striking looks of Nordics, Brunns, faelids and tronders. I actually notice more good looking people in a Nordic region as opposed to an alpine one i.e London or Antwerp compared to Paris.

Remember the saying, «Beauty is in the eye of the beholder». Some like Alpines, some don’t. The same with Nordids, Bruenns, East Baltids, Mediterraneans, etc…

[Activateur]

You must be Mongoloid then.
I can't be, did you see alpine in my taxon profile? I don't think so.


The Nordid is the extreme Caucasoid or ultimate or “perfect” Europid ( blond or ginger, very fair or pale white skin, with or without freckles, blue or green eyes or a mixture of both,long-headed, narrow, fine facial features, slender build, tall stature).

It is not extreme, it's just a normal caucasoid. Others have retarded non-caucasoid non-european metrics. You'd never consider someone like richmondbread(he loks alpine asf in some pics) full european would you? Or some abomination like irina rimes as fully european, or equally european as a nordid or atlantid. I think others are broken caucasoids instead. Unreduced CMs are shorter faced some of them, but they are still european because they're UNREDUCED, if a CM is reduced then it means it mixed with a non-european phenotype. European CMs are never reduced. Well this is at least what Hitler and his anthropologists said.

If we consider reduced CMs as caucasoid, we also have to consider mestizos or mullatos as pure european too lol.


The Atlantid is not race, but a hybrid due to mixture or intermixture between the Nordid ( especially Keltic) and the Atlanto- Mediterranean races. Yes, the Atlantid is full Caucasoid hybrid racial type. The Alpinid has nothing to do with the Atlantid, sorry dude.

I actually meant leptomorphs, Atlantid is the dark haired leptomorph version of alpine, while Nordid is the antithesis of Baltid. It's pretty simple logick.. You actually would get an atlantid if you mix alpine continuously with it. First gen atlantid alpine, then second gen, a near full atlantid... Same with Nordid mixing with a baltid, baltid is not a CM but a degenerate phenotype, it can undergo nordicization and unreduction if mixed correctly.

In case I didn't make myself understood, take a look at this PCA chart I made:

https://i.ibb.co/GCJhnqK/vfu-omu.png

Alpines and east baltids are something in the middle between two races metrically speaking. Along with turanids, I forgot to put there another dot, called turanid, since they're the same type.

they're like broken caucasoids. Borderline of caucasoids.. Not too yellow to pass in east asia, but not too white to pass in NW Euro countries like Sweden Norway, Britannia. Yes there are borrebies there too who may look like alpines but they still have bigger mouth or jaws very different from an alpine or baltid(reduced CM). This is why CM versions of NW look more western than CM versions of (NE)NorthEast europe, they're unreduced.

EDIT: Here's the modified PCA chart, added dinarids there too. They can be rendered like something 1/3 non-leptomorphic.

https://i.ibb.co/hgMGZ5f/vfu-omu-2.png


Alpine are ugly? Since when?

Brigitte Bardot of France is Alpine! She was good-looking when in her youth.
https://www.doctormacro.com/Images/Bardot,%20Brigitte/Annex/Annex%20-%20Bardot,%20Brigitte_06.jpg
She was ugly, or at least average. But she'd look even better if she was leptomorph Atlanto-Nordid.

Too bad the modern idiotic trend doesn't promote leptomorphic types, instead they promote alien faced monstruosities with wide eye distance, large forehead, whatever ugly traits..

And to be on topic.

I do think some meds can be reduced through degeneration of DNA into an alpine. It's possible. Same with CMs. So it's almost impossible to decide if the alpine came from med or CM. but it's usually CMs who got reduced some how. Or never mix a gracile med with a borreby, it will result in an ugly alpine perhaps. Principal COmponents are complicated sometimes, it takes time to know the origin.

In the classic scheme I associated reduced meds or atlantids with dinarids usually.. Not really with alpines. alpines are like full degradation mode of a caucasoid.
Norids are the reduced Nordids too.

You can also say baltid is an asianized nordid, instead of reduced CM. If you mix Corded Nordid with sudsinid or something southeast asian, it would produce the same result as g*rid or baltid. where if you would mix baltid with southeast asian, it would look full asian. This is why some hapas look full asian, some don't or look nearly white. It is this aurignacoid leptomorph type that makes the difference, be it Atlantid, Atlanto-Med, Nordid, Brunn whatever..

This is how you know that metrically alpines are something between the two races. Just take a look at the modern race mixes. Just show me a full white looking offspring of an european alpine with an shortfaced eastasian and maybe we'll talk. But I doubt such combination would produce something full european looking. Look at another full southeast asian looking that emmo raducanu from tennis, looks very asian. dad looking something like alpine like mortimer mother probably full asian. So, alpine with EA/SEA would neever produce full european looking individual. Same with baltid. i didn't talk with baltid because there aren't popular extraeuropean mixes with it. Maybe except if you search swedish-korean mixes, but those would be almost everytime nordoids so it will look at least half white or near white.

This is a complex thing, a lot of things to debate. But metrics will always show you the truth.

[Russki]

(...)


Nordics are slightly closer to East Asians than Alpines.


https://sun9-16.userapi.com/impg/jp29hOVqwU3_DHXBLkVDliui2hOB39Bnn_IFFQ/yedP8618hmI.jpg?size=400x170&quality=95&sign=8f1c2c6046e3a7ecd3cf70460020100a&type=album

[Activateur]

Nordics are slightly closer to East Asians than Alpines.


https://sun9-16.userapi.com/impg/jp29hOVqwU3_DHXBLkVDliui2hOB39Bnn_IFFQ/yedP8618hmI.jpg?size=400x170&quality=95&sign=8f1c2c6046e3a7ecd3cf70460020100a&type=album

That pca wasn't genetics, only metrics.
And also depends which nordic was tested, maybe it was one who had residual baltid, but still nordid looking. But I never saw the faces of the persons tested genetically so it's debatable..

[Septentrion]

I can't be, did you see alpine in my taxon profile? I don't think so.



It is not extreme, it's just a normal caucasoid. Others have retarded non-caucasoid non-european metrics. You'd never consider someone like richmondbread(he loks alpine asf in some pics) full european would you? Or some abomination like irina rimes as fully european, or equally european as a nordid or atlantid. I think others are broken caucasoids instead. Unreduced CMs are shorter faced some of them, but they are still european because they're UNREDUCED, if a CM is reduced then it means it mixed with a non-european phenotype. European CMs are never reduced. Well this is at least what Hitler and his anthropologists said.

If we consider reduced CMs as caucasoid, we also have to consider mestizos or mullatos as pure european too lol.



I actually meant leptomorphs, Atlantid is the dark haired leptomorph version of alpine, while Nordid is the antithesis of Baltid. It's pretty simple logick.. You actually would get an atlantid if you mix alpine continuously with it. First gen atlantid alpine, then second gen, a near full atlantid... Same with Nordid mixing with a baltid, baltid is not a CM but a degenerate phenotype, it can undergo nordicization and unreduction if mixed correctly.

In case I didn't make myself understood, take a look at this PCA chart I made:

https://i.ibb.co/GCJhnqK/vfu-omu.png

Alpines and east baltids are something in the middle between two races metrically speaking. Along with turanids, I forgot to put there another dot, called turanid, since they're the same type.

they're like broken caucasoids. Borderline of caucasoids.. Not too yellow to pass in east asia, but not too white to pass in NW Euro countries like Sweden Norway, Britannia. Yes there are borrebies there too who may look like alpines but they still have bigger mouth or jaws very different from an alpine or baltid(reduced CM). This is why CM versions of NW look more western than CM versions of (NE)NorthEast europe, they're unreduced.

EDIT: Here's the modified PCA chart, added dinarids there too. They can be rendered like something 1/3 non-leptomorphic.

https://i.ibb.co/hgMGZ5f/vfu-omu-2.png


She was ugly, or at least average. But she'd look even better if she was leptomorph Atlanto-Nordid.

Too bad the modern idiotic trend doesn't promote leptomorphic types, instead they promote alien faced monstruosities with wide eye distance, large forehead, whatever ugly traits..

And to be on topic.

I do think some meds can be reduced through degeneration of DNA into an alpine. It's possible. Same with CMs. So it's almost impossible to decide if the alpine came from med or CM. but it's usually CMs who got reduced some how. Or never mix a gracile med with a borreby, it will result in an ugly alpine perhaps. Principal COmponents are complicated sometimes, it takes time to know the origin.

In the classic scheme I associated reduced meds or atlantids with dinarids usually.. Not really with alpines. alpines are like full degradation mode of a caucasoid.
Norids are the reduced Nordids too.

You can also say baltid is an asianized nordid, instead of reduced CM. If you mix Corded Nordid with sudsinid or something southeast asian, it would produce the same result as g*rid or baltid. where if you would mix baltid with southeast asian, it would look full asian. This is why some hapas look full asian, some don't or look nearly white. It is this aurignacoid leptomorph type that makes the difference, be it Atlantid, Atlanto-Med, Nordid, Brunn whatever..

This is how you know that metrically alpines are something between the two races. Just take a look at the modern race mixes. Just show me a full white looking offspring of an european alpine with an shortfaced eastasian and maybe we'll talk. But I doubt such combination would produce something full european looking. Look at another full southeast asian looking that emmo raducanu from tennis, looks very asian. dad looking something like alpine like mortimer mother probably full asian. So, alpine with EA/SEA would neever produce full european looking individual. Same with baltid. i didn't talk with baltid because there aren't popular extraeuropean mixes with it. Maybe except if you search swedish-korean mixes, but those would be almost everytime nordoids so it will look at least half white or near white.

This is a complex thing, a lot of things to debate. But metrics will always show you the truth.

It is no complex. Where the heck did you get that twisted, unprofessional chart by the way? For your information, let us get something straight, the Alpine race is a Western and Central European racial type. It is not a part of the East Europid group of races ( East Baltid, Ladogan, Neo Danubian, etc….). The Alpine race, I repeat, is a reduced version of the northern Borreby race which part of CM phenotypes of North West Europe. In fact the CM types ( Bruenn, Borreby, Dalofaelid) were present in Northern Europe before the emergence of the Nordic race.

[Activateur]

It is no complex. Where the heck did you get that twisted, unprofessional chart by the way? For your information, let us get something straight, the Alpine race is a Western and Central European racial type. It is not a part of the East Europid group of races ( East Baltid, Ladogan, Neo Danubian, etc….). The Alpine race, I repeat, is a reduced version of the northern Borreby race which part of CM phenotypes of North West Europe. In fact the CM types ( Bruenn, Borreby, Dalofaelid) were present in Northern Europe before the emergence of the Nordic race.

It's from analyzing TROE metric charts. and other sources, which are lost, because the hosting providers closed them.

anyway, how do you think it may have got reduced? who reduced that borreby? I wonder...

[Septentrion]

It's from analyzing TROE metric charts. and other sources, which are lost, because the hosting providers closed them.

anyway, how do you think it may have got reduced? who reduced that borreby? I wonder...

The Borreby race of NW Europe morphologically lays between the Alpine of West Europe on one hand and the East Europid ( specifically East Baltid) on other hand or between the East Europid on one hand and the Nordid on the other. The Borreby of NW Europe meets up with the Alpine in Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Northern France. The Borreby is just a much larger-headed, heavier-built type. The Alpine has a similar body build ( smaller though), obviously smaller-headed, more brachycephalic.

[Septentrion]

It's from analyzing TROE metric charts. and other sources, which are lost, because the hosting providers closed them.

anyway, how do you think it may have got reduced? who reduced that borreby? I wonder...

The reason for reduction may be through environmental adaptation as Alpine traditionally live in very mountainous regions. The advantage of short stature and stockier bodies as well. It is one of the many reasons, well people have come up with many.

[Oliver109]

The reason for reduction may be through environmental adaptation as Alpine traditionally live in very mountainous regions. The advantage of short stature and stockier bodies as well. It is one of the many reasons, well people have come up with many.

How would you explain the presence of Alpines in non mountainous regions like north and western France?

[Septentrion]

Alpines tend to plainness i think, though their features are generally quite pleasing but they don't generally have the more striking looks of Nordics, Brunns, faelids and tronders. I actually notice more good looking people in a Nordic region as opposed to an alpine one i.e London or Antwerp compared to Paris.

Paris is in Northern France, dude. The Nordic race as a whole, will encompass Northern France as well. The same Nordic racial type of Scandinavia, Baltic region, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, parts of Belgium, Northern France and the British Isles. In actuality, there are plenty of Nordics mixed with Alpines.

[Oliver109]

Paris is in Northern France, dude. The Nordic race as a whole, will encompass Northern France as well. The same Nordic racial type of Scandinavia, Baltic region, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, parts of Belgium, Northern France and the British Isles. In actuality, there are plenty of Nordics mixed with Alpines.

Paris is more subnordics so they are mixed with alpines a lot, lots of alpine migrants from the rest of France too.

[Septentrion]

How would you explain the presence of Alpines in non mountainous regions like north and western France?

Migration, invasion, intermixture. However the core population of Alpine is center in the mountainous region. There are Alpines in Germany where some of the purest Alpines in the world are found. In Switzerland, Austria, NW Italy, S Belgium all the way to Denmark, you may find Alpines.

[Oliver109]

Migration, invasion, intermixture. However the core population of Alpine is center in the mountainous region. There are Alpines in Germany where some of the purest Alpines in the world are found. In Switzerland, Austria, NW Italy, S Belgium all the way to Denmark, you may find Alpines.

Alpines don't have a special adaption to mountain regions though, their adaption is more to the climate i think as they are only found in temperate regions, the desert heat kills them.

[Septentrion]

Alpines don't have a special adaption to mountain regions though, their adaption is more to the climate i think as they are only found in temperate regions, the desert heat kills them.

Sure their core population is centered in Central France, Southern Germany and the Alps. Their CM reduction is most likely due to it. A similar thing happens in other races living in mountainous areas. The reduction is not only specific to Europid Alpine race. The Alpine is only a reduced version of the very tall, big-bodied blonder Borreby of the north.

[Septentrion]

Paris is more subnordics so they are mixed with alpines a lot, lots of alpine migrants from the rest of France too.

Subnordids are also plentiful in Austria and Switzerland, just as much as in Northern France. The difference with the Low Countries is that usually Subnordids have strong CM admixture. Although their presence is felt here too.