The Genetic History of the Balkans

[Rizza]

Steppe pastoralists of the Yamnaya culture initiated a chain of migrations linking Europe in the west to China and India in the East. Some people across the Balkans (about 5000 to 4500 years ago) traced almost all their genes to this expansion. Steppe migrants soon admixed with locals, creating a tapestry of diverse ancestry from which speakers of the Greek, Paleo-Balkan, and Albanian languages arose.


https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

[JQP4545]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

What were the Y-Haplogroups that Yamnaya brought to the Balkans and Greece?

[Western Citizen]

What were the Y-Haplogroups that Yamnaya brought to the Balkans and Greece?

R1b-Z2103 and maybe some non-congoid E1b clades

[Rizza]

What were the Y-Haplogroups that Yamnaya brought to the Balkans and Greece?

R1b definitely and possibly J2b2-L283. Maybe also EV-13 as none of them have been found before that period although we have E-L618

[Rizza]

From some users on Anthrogenica



I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.




Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.

[Rizza]

IE ancestor of Albanian possibly did not come directly from the steppes but from East Alpine Block or central Europe

[Tongio]

IE ancestor of Albanian possibly did not come directly from the steppes but from East Alpine Block or central Europe

Illiyrians were a hallstatt derived group.Before them the J2b-L283 Cetina culture was bell beaker in origin(corded ware before that).
So i doubt very much they spoke a Yamnaya derived language, such as greek or armênian , Illiyrian language was likely close to gaulish, just as their genetic composition.
Albanian language likely came from its E-v13 and R1b-Z1023 Yamnaya derived ancestors, or else it would be closer to other western european languages such as the celtic ones.
This is my take on the thing, while i dont mean tô offend by saying you guy's language is very likely not a decendent of illiyrian.Its just my interpretation of current data.

[Tongio]

IE ancestor of Albanian possibly did not come directly from the steppes but from East Alpine Block or central Europe

Notice too that the Maros beaker belonging to J- L283>>Z615* had a fancy elite burial , meanwhile all the R1b-Z1023 found at the same site had peasant burials.This along with later L283, fast multiplication, makes clear who was the one mygrating from the central european sphere and who were the subjugated natives wich language and lineages got supressed in the area.So these two indo european speaking clans originaly were rivals, one coming from the previous steppe expansions tô the balkans(Yamnaya Z1023) and the other mygrating tô the west balkans from its previous forested homeland(beaker/corded cultures of central europe and poland).

[Rizza]

We have some of the most common Albanian Y-dna found together,



think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.




its not the first time they are found together so they seem to of migrated together

Indeed Albanian is a language that has been related to Celtic and Germanic

Classical Illyrians are people who formed in the Balkans through different cultures especially Glasinac Mati which clearly Albanian derived from.

Cinamak where these samples were found was a Illyrian territory. Considered Glasinac-Mati site since early Iron Age
There is also strong enough argument to show Albanian could of never come from Thracian. The structure of the Albanian language is totally different.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac-Mati_culture


Kosovo was mostly Glasinac Mati too . Illyrians lived as far as Nish.

Those Thracians carry markers such as R1a-z93, non existant in Albanians. There is no evidence of any Thracians moving into Albania nor that Albanian derived from any kind of Thracian culture. your only argument is Y-dna EV-13 basically which is an Y-Dna found across the Balkans and Europe and could of never spread with only Thracians. Nor is it enough evidence that proto Albanian was Thracian. You talk as if you have some kind of compelling evidence but your arguments are weak.

Last but not least, those Thracians are way too southern shifted to of ever been ancestor of Albanians , pre Slavic ancestor of Albanian were north/central Italian like


So yes Albanian is most certainly Illyrian and the evidence is mounting , please go troll somewhere else.

[Tongio]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

[Rizza]

Hallsatt origin of Proto-Illyrians has actually been challenged and I personally do not believe anymore proto-Illyrians came from this wave of culture after having read a bit but rather from Vucedol, Cetina and then Glasinac Mati. Albanian language is mainly grouped within it's own branch. Some grouped it before with Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Greek and Armenian.

''Mathieson et al. 2018 archaeogenetic study included three samples from Dalmatia: two Early & Middle Bronze Age (1631-1521/1618-1513 calBCE) samples from Veliki Vanik (near Vrgorac) and one Iron Age (805-761 calBCE) sample from Jazinka Cave in Krka National Park. According to ADMIXTURE analysis they had approximately 60% Early European Farmers, 33% Western Steppe Herders and 7% Western Hunter-Gatherer-related ancestry. The male individual from Veliki Vanik carried the Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a1-L283 while his and two female individuals mtDNA haplogroup were I1a1, W3a1 and HV0e.[2] Freilich et al. (2021) identify the Veliki Vanik samples as related to Cetina culture. They carry similar ancestry to a Copper Age sample from the site of Beli Manastir-Popova Zemlja (late Vučedol culture), eastern Croatia. The same autosomal profile persists in the Iron Age sample from Jazinka cave.[3] Lazaridis et al. (2022) examined 18 samples from Bronze Age Cetina valley and confirmed previous conclusions. Out of 10 males whose Y-DNA was successfully extracted, 9 belonged to haplogroup J2 (mainly J2b2a1-L283 subclades) and 1 to haplogroup R1b1a1b1a-Z2118. Their and female individuals mtDNA haplogroups were 2x H, H13a2a, H5, H6a1, 3x H6a1a, HV0e, 6x J1c1, N1a1a1, T1a1 and U5a1a.[4]''

Vucedol culture: ''According to Bogdan Brukner, proto-Illyrians descended from this wave of Indo-European settlers''

One sample from Vucedol I believe was confirmed R1b-z2103 also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetina_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

Glasinac Mati emerged after these cultures .

Of course we will eventually see how EV-13 fits into this picture overall.

[Rizza]

According to archaeology proto-Illyrians could of never come from Hallstatt nor supported by any genetic evidence:



Older assumptions of the early 20th century of Illyrians having been the bearers of especially the Eastern Hallstatt culture are indefensible and archeologically unsubstantiated.[1][2]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

Illyrians were Vucedol and then Cetina then emerged Glasinac Mati culture. So yes, Albanian language most definitely came from there as we also have two of the most common Albanian Y-DNA there, Albanians also live in the Western Balkans, and Albanians are 80%-90% identical to Iron Age samples in Northern Albania, with North/Central Italian being a proxy for Iron Age West Balkan ancestry, basically an East shift that has occurred ( funny enough one Cetina sample even clusters like an Albanian). Thracian origin of proto-Albanian is not supported by any archaeology or genetic evidence. There are no other candidates.

By your logic EV-13 Greeks and other Balkanite EV-13 must be Thracian too why else would you argue proto-Albanian was R1b-z2103 + EV13 despite those Thracians belonged to a bunch of other Y-DNA.

Also I see the person who claims Albanians are supposedly 30% Near Eastern agrees with you:

''the Kosovars show the closest affinities among Western Balkan populations to Greeks and other South European populations. In our ibd analysis, we also did not find evidences for specific gene flow from the Middle East to Kosovars, compared to non-Muslim populations of Western Balkan (Figure 7).''

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4141785/#!po=22.8477

[Rizza]

Linguists hold Albanian to be Illyrian and related to Messapian we also got one J2b2-L283 sample from there. Eric Hamp relates Albanian with Illyrian and Messapian:

''Some scholars place Illyrian and Messapic in the same branch. Eric Hamp has grouped them under "Messapo-Illyrian" which is further grouped with Albanian under "Adriatic Indo-European".[15] Other schemes group the three languages under "General Illyrian" and "Western Paleo-Balkan".[16] A number of shared features between Messapic and proto-Albanian may have emerged either as a result of linguistic contacts between Proto-Messapic and Pre-Proto-Albanian within the Balkan peninsula in prehistoric times, or of a closer relation as shown by the quality of the correspondences in the lexical area and shared innovations between Messapic and Albanian.[17]''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

See also his study on Messapic and Albanian.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Illyrian_colonies_in_Italy_550_BC_%28English%29_%2 8simple_map%29.svg/1024px-Illyrian_colonies_in_Italy_550_BC_%28English%29_%2 8simple_map%29.svg.png

https://i.postimg.cc/kXMhN6tb/Bilde-2022-09-17-222452727.png

[Rizza]

So no my friend your arguments hold no ground here. Mostly just strawman arguments. That's why I told you to go troll somewhere else.

[Rizza]

Mallory on Albanian:

''The earliest identifiable loanwords are from Greek, e.g., moker ‘millstone’ (< West Grk [Doric] paxocvd) or draper'sickle’ (< West Grk Spanavov). As in these two cases, the evidence suggests that Greek influence came from western Greece, more particularly from Greek colonies on the Adriatic coast. Much more extensive was the later influence of Latin. Even very common words such as mik ‘friend’ (< Lat amicus) or kendoj ‘I sing; read’ (< Lat cantare) come from Latin and attest to a widespread intermingling of pre-Albanian and Balkan Latin speakers during the Roman period, roughly from the second century BC to the fifth century AD. The Greek and Latin loans have undergone most of the far-reaching phonological changes which have so altered the shape of inherited IE words while Slavic and Turkish words do not show these changes. Thus Albanian must have acquired much of its present form by the time the Slavs entered into the Balkans in the fifth and sixth centuries AD.''

'' Although there are some lexical items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was at least attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory and there is no evidence of any major migration into Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally, as Shaban Demiraj argues, the ancient Illyrian place- names of the region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian, e.g., Durrachion > Alb Durres (with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona > Alb Vlone ~ Vlore (with rhotacism in Tosk). Demiraj suggests that the transition from Illyrian to Albanian began during the fifth and sixth centuries AD and was clearly completed before the immigration of Albanianspeakers to Greece and Italy in the fourteenth-sixteenth centuries.''

Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams

[Rizza]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

Based on everything I have read proto Illyrians were bronze age people that developed from the Vucedol that migrated from the steppes into the Vucedol area where they mingled with Neolithic which was followed then by Cetina culture and some other cultures and later emerged also the Glasinac Mati which was the last.


There is not much that supports Hallstatt origin of Illyrian anymore since Hallstatt is a culture that developed much later ,in central europe nor supported by genetic evidence


Greek, Thracian etc came directly from the steppes and down east

[Rizza]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

And of course you are a troll, EV-13 is just some Balkan Y-DNA that hit the boom and which happened in every Balkan population, look up the latest updated statistics for each population. Also among modern Albanians latest statistics for Kosovo and even Albania show 20%-29% , more or less similar to other Balkan populations. J2b2-L283 and R1b were even found together in the Maykop Steppe.

Some how you managed to single out Albanians.

[Rizza]

These researchers are also saying Illyrian/Albanian/Messapic , Greek, Thracian and other Paleo-Balkan languages basically derived from Yamnaya and not corded ware or hallstatt, with Greek and Phrygian possibly migrating directly South-East from the steppes.

https://i.ibb.co/TWngvvS/M8.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/From_Corded_Ware_to_Sintashta.jpg




https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26280-quot-The-Genetic-History-of-the-Southern-Arc-A-Bridge-between-West-Asia-amp-Europe-quot&p=875823#post875823

[Rizza]

Hallstatt time frame:

1200 – 500 BC
Hallstatt A (1200 – 1050 BC);
Hallstatt B (1050 – 800 BC);
Hallstatt C (800 – 500 BC);
Hallstatt D (620 – 450 BC)

Hallstatt was a culture that developed in Central Europe in Late Bronze Age, Early Iron Age, by that time Illyrians were already in the Balkans as we can see by Ancient DNA From Bronze Age and Iron Age Balkans. So no they most definitely did not come from that culture nor Unetice. Illyrians were Vucedol derived, Cetina and then Glasinac Mati. Possibly other cultures that developed and played a role. Cetina was rich in J2b2, Vucedol was a Neolithic/Yamnaya mix composed of R1b and G. Y-DNA G was a neolithic marker which eventually seems to of disappeared as we can see by later Iron Age Y-DNA that are mostly J2b2 + R1b. J2b2 was probably bottle necked during these periods. And later EV-13 hit a bottle neck.


If Albanian branches of EV-13 are supposedly not Illyrian then I guess neither is the rest of EV-13 in the Balkans by your logic, Croatia, Serbia etc highest pre-Slavic Y-DNA is exactly EV-13. , how did you people manage to single out Albanian branches of EV-13 and claim it did not come from Illyrians ? Where is your evidence for that ?

[PAGANE]

What secrets will the ancient DNA from the Varna Necropolis reveal? 34 DNA studies from the Varna Necropolis


Archaeologists discovered 15 new graves in the Varna Necropolis It is one of the best dated monuments in the Balkans - around 4570 and 4350 BC. According to the Head of the studies, Dr. Vladimir Slavchev, a massive study of the genetics of the found bones is forthcoming. Their DNA analysis will allow tracing the genealogical relationships between the buried. And to date, the 3,000 fine objects with a total weight of more than 6 kg, made about 6,500 years ago, are unparalleled on the planet. Half a century after the discovery of the necropolis, which provoked an international sensation, scientists do not stop looking for connections among the people buried there.
Excavations have been resumed after a 30-year hiatus, and 15 new burials have so far been discovered. More than 100 new artifacts were discovered in them. The people who inhabited the area near Lake Varna 6,500 years ago numbered around 5,000 people. A true cradle of European civilization.
"There was subordination at that time, and in fact, because of this, the site and the culture in general that developed in the region of the Varna Lakes are unique," said archaeologist Stanimir Parvanov.
Since the resumption of excavations, 34 DNA samples have been collected and analyzed in search of family ties. The task of archaeologists is to collect as much as possible for a more complete picture.
"Whether some of the richer graves are connected, whether there are various interlayers that are genetically, kin-related," explains Stanimir Parvanov.
"If, for example, the graves with more objects turn out to be closely related to each other, at this point we can talk about a sequence that is passed down through the kinship line. If they do not have such a relationship, then we can talk about a personal status," added the archaeologist Vladimir Slavchev. Until now, a large part of the studied new complexes were opened already in the Chalcolithic and have few objects in them.
"Perhaps they were looking for expensive things, and perhaps they used part of their bones to make amulets or various objects, which are believed to give them a spiritual connection with the other world," explained Vladimir Slavchev. Archaeologists currently do not know what part of the entire necropolis they have uncovered. In the coming year, they intend to dig in this place. https://novini247.com/novini/novi-usiliya-na-uchenite-da-razbulyat-taynite-okolo-varnenskiya-halkoliten_5236872.html

[Dick]

What were the Y-Haplogroups that Yamnaya brought to the Balkans and Greece?

R1b 💯 since Greek is a Centum language

[Bart0s]

Illiyrians were a hallstatt derived group.Before them the J2b-L283 Cetina culture was bell beaker in origin(corded ware before that).
So i doubt very much they spoke a Yamnaya derived language, such as greek or armênian , Illiyrian language was likely close to gaulish, just as their genetic composition.
Albanian language likely came from its E-v13 and R1b-Z1023 Yamnaya derived ancestors, or else it would be closer to other western european languages such as the celtic ones.
This is my take on the thing, while i dont mean tô offend by saying you guy's language is very likely not a decendent of illiyrian.Its just my interpretation of current data.

Nope it wasn't. So far no J2b2-L283 has been found among any Bell Beaker culture or Corded Ware nor does anything suggests Illyrian came from Corded Ware or Central Europe or Hallstatt nor does anything suggests J2b2 came from there. Nor is there any compelling evidence that J2b2 came from the Steppes but it is possible it was a minor lineage among Yamnaya and hit a boom, so far no J2b2 in Yamnaya nor Corded Ware. It is nothing but speculation that you have no evidence for. Your theory certainly also does not explain why J2b2 peaks among modern Albanians for it to be a lineage that supposedly was picked up unlike E-V13 which is much more widespread outside the Albanian sphere. J2b2 which also appears in Medieval Albania.

Even Yugoslav archaeologists do not consider Illyrians as Corded Ware but Bronze Age people from Vucedol. Other cultures that came later had not much impact.

Most of the R1b lineages we have among Illyrians so far are Yamnaya derived including the one found in Vucedol and the ones found in Northern Albania that were found together with J2b2 such as R-Z2103+ and R-PF7563+ , these same lineages were found among the Daunians and Iapygians/Messapians in Southern Italy who are believed to of been Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians and to of come from the Western Balkans , their language by linguists is also believed to be related to Albanian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language together these Y-DNA lineages make some of the most common Albanian Y-DNA today.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Classification_of_Albanian.png/495px-Classification_of_Albanian.png

Maros btw was definitely not beaker, it dates to post Vucedol and they found again R1b-Z2103 and J2b2 together, J2b2 also has been found in Moldova around the steppes and in the Maykop. It was found among Etruscans but the R1b in Etruscans is not related to Yamnaya but to Beaker and other groups and Etruscans in general are believed to of been a non-IE people, indicating they absorbed IE or some IE group adopted their language. And most Etruscan samples were R1b, ca 75%. The J2b2 branch in Etruscans is similar to one found in Dalmatia, the J2b2 in Southern Balkans belongs to a different branch, suggesting different tribes of Illyrians carried different branches of J2b2 rather than indicating different group of people all together since most of their R1b we have so far are the same branch which are directly linked to Yamnaya rather than Corded Ware. Also some J2b2 branch from Northern Balkans was also carried by Southern Balkan tribes and vice versa.


The R1b branches we have from Central Europe, Celts, Italics and Corded Ware in general are different from the Illyrians we have so far found in Vucedol and Northern Albania and among Messapic.



Notice too that the Maros beaker belonging to J- L283>>Z615* had a fancy elite burial , meanwhile all the R1b-Z1023 found at the same site had peasant burials.This along with later L283, fast multiplication, makes clear who was the one mygrating from the central european sphere and who were the subjugated natives wich language and lineages got supressed in the area.So these two indo european speaking clans originaly were rivals, one coming from the previous steppe expansions tô the balkans(Yamnaya Z1023) and the other mygrating tô the west balkans from its previous forested homeland(beaker/corded cultures of central europe and poland).


Again this is also just an assumption. Your idea is based on one single R1b branch found in the Western Balkans which could either be due to contact with people from other side of the Adriatic or other cultural influence. Cetina is a Post Vucedol derived culture. J2b2 appears in Maros and post Vucedol together with R1b-Z2103 which is a lineage among Yamnaya, and they appear also together in Northern Albania and among Messapians / Daunians. J2b2 and R1b appear in Maykop. J2b2 appears in the Steppes around Moldova. These are all before it appears among Etruscans. No J2b2 in any Corded Ware.

The J2b2 in Etruscans could aswell be the result of contact with the other side of the Adriatic. But we also have J2b2 in Sardinia.


Your migration hypothesis from Central Europe is nothing but an assumption. The fact that J2b2 had a fancy elite burial is because that specific person was related to physical activity / warrior. First evidence we have of Indo European migrations into Vucedol is from one R1b-Z2103 which also had the same genetic profile as Cetina Bronze Age J2b2 and the rest of Vucedol are Y-DNA G and heavy Neolithic which clearly shows Yamnaya directly mixed with Neolithic natives.


You ignore all the genetic evidence we have so far in Northern Albanian, Messapian and Vucedol based on some theory that has no evidence. Some theory where you wish this J2b2 Y-DNA is related to some kind of proto-Illyrian culture that supposedly came from Corded Ware when there is no evidence. There is even no evidence so far that suggests J2b2 is an Indo European derived Y-DNA but it could very well be from the Steppes with Yamnaya migrations and definitely not Corded Ware.


As for E-V13 and R1b , certainly nothing suggests Albanian language came from such nor Thracian or Dacian based on their placenames which does not even correspond with Albanian nor Illyrian and there are no linguists these days that hold Albanian to be Thracian or Dacian. Some unattested language that was neither Illyrian or any of those is nothing but a theory that has no evidence since most paleo-Balkan people that were not Greek belonged to one of those two and the term ''Illyrian'' was first applied to tribes that lived in Montenegro/Albania.


The Dardani were Glasinac-Mati, they were Illyrians.

[Bart0s]

No Bell Beaker J2b2 found so far nor any Corded Ware, your theory isn't supported by any kind of evidence, mostly J2b2 in post Vucedol culture such as Maros, Cetina and also J2b2 in Maykop and Moldova.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture#Genetics



Lee et al. (2012) detected R1b two male skeletons from a German Bell Beaker site dated to 2600–2500 BC at Kromsdorf, one of which tested positive for M269 but negative for its U106 subclade (note that the P312 subclade was not tested for), while for the other skeleton the M269 test was unclear.[48]

Haak et al. (2015) analyzed the remains of a later Bell Beaker male skeleton from Quedlinburg, Germany, dated to 2296–2206 BC. The individual carried haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2 (R-P312). The study found that the Bell Beakers and people of the Unetice culture had less ancestry from the Yamnaya culture than from the earlier Corded Ware culture. The authors took this to be a sign of a resurgence of the indigenous inhabitants of Western Europe in the aftermath of the Yamnaya expansion.[49]

Allentoft et al. (2015) found the people of the Beaker culture to be closely genetically related to the Corded Ware culture, the Unetice culture and the Nordic Bronze Age.[50]

In yet another 2015 study published in Nature, the remains of eight individuals ascribed to the Beaker culture were analyzed. Two individuals were determined to belong to Haplogroup R1, while the remaining six were determined to belong to haplogroup R1b1a2 and various subclades of it.[51]

A study published in Nature in February 2018 confirmed that Bell Beaker males carried almost exclusively R1b, but the very first ones (in Iberia) had no Steppe autosomes or R at all.[52]

Papac et al. (2021) found in the region of Bohemia, Czech Republic, Bell Beaker culture's male individuals featuring Y-haplogroup R1b-P312, radiocarbon-dated to between 2400 and 2100 BC.[53]


60% of the Y-DNA we have in Northern Albania from the Iron Age I believe is R1b and Yamnaya derived and not Corded Ware nor Bell Beaker.


Most of the R1b we have among Illyrians so far are Yamnaya derived and not Bell Beaker.


Some non Yamnaya Y-DNA R1b found from the Bronze Age doesn't prove much either way

[Bart0s]

I am not trying to offend you here or anything. No offence and I respect your opinion. But you ignore all genetic evidence we have so far based on your own wishful thinking personal theory. This is because you are apparently J2b2 yourself so you want this personal theory of yours to be true but leave your personal bias aside. You assume a J2b2 expansion from Bell Beaker and Corded Ware without absolutely no evidence. Despite it has never been found there and appears in Maros, Moldova, Maykop and Cetina. Maros and Cetina dates to post-Vucedol. You claim some J2b2 expansion from Corded Ware supposedly subjugated Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 Vucedol without any evidence despite these same Y-DNA's also appear among Messapians and in Northern Albania and in Maros together. This is absolutely insanse theory :picard1:

Also most of the R1b we have in Vucedol, Northern Albania and among Messapians are Yamnaya derived and not Corded Ware or Bell Beaker.



So where are your J2b2 and R1b Corded Ware or Bell Beakers that you keep talking about ?

[Bart0s]

Oldest J2b2-L283 found in the Balkans btw was found in Maros Culture in Northern Serbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokrin

It's a Post-Vucedol culture where it appears together with R1b-Z2103 , a Yamnaya derived Y-DNA. They appear again in Northern Albania and among Messapians.

Your theory is absolutely nuts dude backed up by no evidence :lol:

[Bart0s]

So where are your J2b2 Bell Beaker or Corded Ware , how come most of the R1b Y-DNA we have in the Balkans it not related to Corded Ware or Bell Beaker ?



According to Malmström et al. (2019), neither R1a nor R1b-M269 have been reported among Neolithic populations of central and western Europe, although it was common among earlier hunter gatherers of Eastern Europe.[66] Haak et al. note that their results suggest that these haplogroups "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."[7]

The majority of CWC-men carried haplogroup R1a-M417, the remaining ones R1b and I2a.[66] Note that, although related to the Corded Ware population, studied Yamnaya males mainly carried R1b-Z2103, while R1b-bearing Corded Ware males had R1b-L51, suggesting that Corded Ware culture males cannot be directly patrilineally descended from Yamnaya individuals.[f] Yet, Linderholm et al. (2020) found seven CW males which were narrowed down to either R1b-M269 or R-L11,[67] while Allentoft et al. (2015) report two CW males with R1b,[1] and Fürtwangler et al. (2020) report three CW males with R1b.[68] According to Sjögren et al. (2020), R1b-M269 "is the major lineage associated with the arrival of Steppe ancestry in western Europe after 2500 BC[E]."[69]

Papac et al. (2021) argue that the differences in Y-DNA between early CW and Yamnaya males suggest that the Yamnaya culture did not have a direct role in the origins and expansion of the Corded Ware culture.[6] They found that a majority of early Corded Ware males in Bohemia belonged to R1b-L151, while R1a lineages became predominant over time.[6] The study detected a reduction in male haplogroup diversity over time, reducing from five different lineages in early CW to a single dominant lineage, R1a-M417(xZ645), in late CW. The authors suggest that males of this haplogroup had around 15% more surviving offspring per generation compared to other males, which may have been caused by "selection, social structure, or influx of nonlocal R1a-M417(xZ645) lineages."[6] The sample included one individual ancestral to haplogroup R1b-P312, which is the most common male lineage found in individuals of the Bell Beaker culture.[6]






This is an absolute nuts theory of yours dude , I know of course you read this forum.



J2b2 Corded Ware subjugated Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 ? My god you are nuts :picard1:

[Bart0s]

E-V13 btw isn't neccessarily a proto-Thracian / Dacian marker only , mostly appears in the Iron Age. We have one in Iron Age Croatia and several from Roman Croatia also. that are close to the Illyrian Iron Age cluster. And we have several in Sicily from a Greek Army from the Iron Age, and these E-V13 interesting enough cluster like Iron Age Illyrians. The E-V13 found in Eastern Serbia from Roman period is not related to Albanian E-V13 neither is the one found in Bulgaria. We have E-V13 also in Slovakia, Hungary etc.

Most samples we have from the Balkans from Roman Period are more East compared to the Iron Age anyway including J2b2 and E-V13 and cluster close to modern Albanians indicating Slavic influence in Albanians certainly cannot be much. We will see eventually where E-V13 fits or how it spread.

[Bart0s]

Those two J2b2 Etruscans and Sardinians are most likely due to contact with people from the Western Balkans:
Lazaridis & Alpaslan-Roodenberg 2022, pp. 322:




J-Z2507 (within J2) is found in 21 individuals ... In the ancient data we find it in 3 samples from Rome,(436) with the earliest being R474.SG (700-600 BCE). All remaining samples are from the Balkans and indeed the Western Balkans (Montenegro, Croatia, Albania) and most of them are from the Bronze Age. Thus, J-Z2507 has a peri-Adriatic ancient distribution in agreement with the present-day distribution and may represent a Bronze Age or later expansion in the area. The immediately upstream nodes of J-Z2507 are J-Z585, J-Z615, J-Z597 with a similar time depth and include two additional Bronze Age samples from Albania and Croatia, and are thus part of the same pattern. J-Z600, the parent node of J-Z585, includes four additional individuals, one of which is from Croatia, and three of which are from the Late Bronze Age Nuragic culture in the island of Sardinia,(20, 453) thus suggesting that this culture included individuals of Bronze Age Western Balkan origin (these might have Italian intermediaries, but we do not detect any J-Z600 in mainland Italy prior to the aforementioned Iron Age sample from Rome)


Oldest samples we have so far are from the Balkans.

I know I quoted wikipedia but wikipedia should never be quoted actually. Nothing suggests Vucedol was Bell Beaker either. No Bell Beaker Y-DNA in Vucedol. No J2b2 in Bell Beaker, No J2b2 in Corded Ware, No Bell Beaker Y-DNA in Maros from what I know. Mostly Yamnaya derived R1b + J2b2 in Maros, R1b-Z2103 in Vucedol.

Yamnaya derived Y-DNA mostly in Albania together with J2b2 , same among Messapians.

[Bart0s]

Basically R1b branches found among Albanians have already been found in Vucedol and Iron Age Northern Albania together with J2b2 which were also found in Daunians/Messapians, but according to this Brazilian nutcase this is apparently all a coincidence. No no the actual Albanian came apparently with E-V13, which at this point does not even look to of been a common proto-Albanian marker. :lol:

This nutcase believes J2b2 is some kind of Bell Beaker / Corded Ware derived Y-DNA when all the oldest J2b2 we have so far are from Maros and Moldova and around close to the Steppes, In Maros it is found together with R1b-z2103. No j2b2 bell beaker or corded ware . The R1b among Corded Ware and Bell Beaker are different from the Illyrian ones in Vucedol, Messapians, and Iron Age Albania.

That paper you are referring to mainly is talking about Y-DNA such as R1b-Z2103 which is known to of come with Yamnaya. Nowhere does it say Illyrian came from Central Europe or that Albanian isn't derived from Illyrian.

Still waiting for that oldest J2b2 Bell Beaker / Corded Ware of yours to show up , maybe in some kind of alternative universe.

[Bart0s]

I did not mention thracians once... And I am not trolling. Its a real possibility Albanian language as most of albanian Y DNA came directly from Yamnaya mixing with neolithic groups, not from central European beakers, y DNA R1b - z1023 wasn't beaker too , like i said , its not only E v13 .This possibility was mentioned in the southern arc paper even.

J2b2 did not come from Bell Beaker nor from Central Europe nor did proto-Illyrians come from any kind of Corded Ware or Beall Beaker. There is not a single evidence for it. J2b2 peaks in modern Albanians. Both are found in Iron Age Albania with R1b. He is talking about R1b-Z2103 found in Iron Age Albania , what most of Albanian Y-DNA are you talking about ? J2b2 is an Albanian Y-DNA. R1b branches in Illyrians came directly from Yamnaya as did Albanian. This is what Vucedol, Iron Age Albania and Messapic shows too.



Yamnaya burial custom and with the R-Z2103 haplogroup typical of the steppe Yamnaya) and one from Albania
(Çinamak) belonging to the high-steppe ancestry group. By the Late Bronze Age (late 2nd millennium BCE) and later, no high-steppe
ancestry individuals are observed, but steppeassociated Y chromosomes persist, including R-Z2106, a lineage that links North Macedonia (Ulanci-Veles), Albania (Çinamak), the steppe, and Armenia. The population of Southeastern Europe contrasts strongly with those of the Central/Northern Europe and Eurasian steppe archaeological cultures of ~3000 to 2000 BCE that were strongly associated with particular Y-chromosome lineages: Afanasievo (4, 34) with the same R-Z2103 as the Yamnaya, Corded Ware/Fatyanovo/Sintashta (4, 8, 34, 35) with R-M417, and Beaker (36) with R-L51. In Southeastern Europe during the Bronze Age, we
detect 32/30/21/11 Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroups R/J/I/G linking it with Central/ Northern Europe and the steppe/West Asia/ local hunter gatherers/Anatolian-European Neolithic farmers, respectively. Together with the extraordinary heterogeneity in autosomal ancestry in the Balkans, a picture emerges of a fragmented genetic landscape that may well parallel the poorly understood linguistic diversity in the ancient Balkans, which among
Indo-Europeanlanguagesincludes Paleo-Balkan speakers before the spread of Latin and Slavic, with Albanian as the only surviving representative. Did the early Indo-European language become successful in Southeastern Europe because it functioned as a “lingua franca,” facilitating communication among speakers of the diverse languages of previous farmer and hunter-gatherer populations?


https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/8_25_2022_Manuscript1_ChalcolithicBronzeAge.pdf


The R1b branch found in Croatia and Slovenia are not from Illyrians but from contact with Bell Beakers. All other Y-DNA like R1b-Z2103, J2b2 etc and some other did not come from any Bell Beakers nor have they ever been found.



E-V13 is not even a marker that is considered to of come from the Steppes. Where on earth is your evidence that E-v13 is some kind of proto-Albanian marker ? Albanian language is related to Messapic where we have the same Y-DNA found. E-V13 is completely irrelevant in this case and could of been picked up at any time.

[wvwvw]

The Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians were the only ones who were of mixed y-dna lineages, unlike most other Europeans who were of a single lineage and were not mixed until Roman times.

The E-v13 DNA linage evolved in Greece about 15,000 years ago from E linage immigrants that evolved in Tunisia and about 8,000 years ago the J2b linage evolved in Greece from J linage immigrants from Georgia. About 12,000 years ago the I ydna evolved in Croatia and Bosnia but mostly kept out of Greece. About 4,000 years ago R1b linage migrants may have came to northern Greece (or they may have already been there much earlier) from the Balkans which was already dominated by the M102 and M78 linages.

[Bart0s]

J-L283 is a haplogroup which spread with Yamnaya migrations in the Balkans and the first J-L283 to be found in Europe comes from Late Yamnaya Moldova (ca. 3000 BCE, unpublished). Phylogeographer mentions the same sample in this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=277JV-hiwwM



So J2b2-L283 is confirmed Yamnaya and not Bell Beaker , together with R-Z2103/R-PF7563 they were found in Maros, Iron Age Albania etc and was found in Maykop and are present among the Iapygians of Illyrian origin. Today they also make up some of the most common Albanian lineages.


They have nothing to do with Bell Beaker, Corded Ware or any kind of Italic or Celts. And there is nothing that supports an origin from there. Oldest J2b2 we have are from the Balkans and areas close to the Steppes.


Those two Etruscan J2b2 are of Balkan origin and post date Illyian movements into Italy.


E-V13 is a marker which is not even related to the Steppes at this point.

[Bart0s]

Illiyrians were a hallstatt derived group.Before them the J2b-L283 Cetina culture was bell beaker in origin(corded ware before that).
So i doubt very much they spoke a Yamnaya derived language, such as greek or armênian , Illiyrian language was likely close to gaulish, just as their genetic composition.
Albanian language likely came from its E-v13 and R1b-Z1023 Yamnaya derived ancestors, or else it would be closer to other western european languages such as the celtic ones.
This is my take on the thing, while i dont mean tô offend by saying you guy's language is very likely not a decendent of illiyrian.Its just my interpretation of current data.

Once again, Nope.



Archaeogenetics link the culture from Yamnaya migrations directly from the steppes that mixed with Neolithic people [2]. The need for copper resulted in the expansion of the Vucedol Culture from its homeland of Slavonia into the broader region of central and southeastern Europe.[3]




According to Bogdan Brukner, proto-Illyrians descended from this wave of Indo-European settlers.






A February 2018 study published in Nature included an analysis of three individuals ascribed to the Vučedol culture. One male carried haplogroup R1b-z2103 and T2e, while the other carried G2a2a1a2a and T2c2. The female carried U4a.[18] In a three-way admixture model, first male approximately had 58% Early European Farmers, 42% Western Steppe Herders and 0% Western Hunter-Gatherer-related ancestry, second male 93% EFF, 4% WSH and 3% WHG while female 37% EEF, 54% WSH and 10% WHG.[19] According to Lazaridis, R1b-z2103 is linked to the Yamnaya migration from the steppes[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

Cetina is a post-vucedol culture as are Maros, Bela Crkva, proto-Illyrian cultures that were followed by Glasinac Mati which was the last. In Maros we see J2b2+R1b + other lineages and in Albania and among IAPYGIANS we see these same. Vucedol was proto Illyrian Yamnaya + Balkan Neolithic that eventually expanded into the Western Balkans which then formed the Cetina Culture and later Glasinac Mati. The J2b2 in the Adriatic coast is a founder effect of few Illyrian tribes.


J2b2 expanding from Central Europe / BB and supposedly spread IE languages such as Illyrian is nothing but some theory you pulled out of your ass to try and discredit Albanian language to of not come from such a population. You're one of the most lying manipulative people that I have ever seen. And I see even that delusional Croat gave you thumbs up which is the most hilarious part. It was a good thing you got banned, you nutcase. You even tried to log on. :lol:

You people are nuts and have no arguments.


Hallstatt is a culture that has nothing to do with Illyrian, it formed 1000 years in Central Europe after Illyrians arrived to the Balkans and 1000 years after Cetina culture. Or even Maros Culture that precede it by 1000 years. Even CW and Beaker culture came before Hallstatt.



You are definitely clueless. There is not a single geneticists that argues paleo-balkan languages came from any BB or CW or that J2b2 has a Bell Beaker expansion. You people are nuts.