G25 Balkan Calculator

[Rizza]

Try this , created by Bruzmi on Anthrogenica



Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%,0.1201,0.1444,0.0077,-0.0179,0.0246,-0.0079,-0.0002,0.0011,0.0026,0.013,0.0015,0.0047,-0.0102,0.0001,-0.0079,0.0017,0.0101,0,0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0028,0.0013,-0.0018,-0.001,-0.0017
HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664



My results:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8051% / 0.00805085
49.2 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
36.8 Albania_IA_Rom
14.0 Migration_Period

[Rizza]

Distance to: Rizza
0.02231076 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.02425632 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.02504395 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.02856914 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.02883914 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.08613507 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3



Croatia_Sisak is a sample from year 303 AD.

[Rizza]

Try another one here



Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%,0.112685,0.144205,0.002263,-0.031654,0.021542,-0.010877,0.00517,-0.002538,0.001636,0.01877,0,0.006145,-0.00996,0.004817,-0.014386,-0.012463,-0.004303,-0.005954,-0.003394,-0.000875,-0.011729,0.000866,0.002218,-0.000482,0.000239
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664



Distance to: Rizza
0.02425632 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.02504395 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.02856914 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.02883914 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.03972089 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%
0.08613507 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.9451% / 0.00945101
45.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
38.8 Albania_IA_Rom
16.2 Migration_Period

[Hulu]

What migration period is that?

[Dušan]

Target: Dušan_g25
Distance: 1.9789% / 0.01978877
68.2 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
20.2 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
11.6 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA

[Rizza]

What migration period is that?

It is Slavic but I think it can be reduced. I managed to reduce it on some other calcs. But this is just for fun. Depends also how north or south your pre Slavic ancestors were. Some of those Illyrians in Albania and Macedonia are South of me.

[Dušan]

What migration period is that?

Slavic

Distance to: Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
0.02694256 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02920055 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03162636 Sorb_Niederlausitz

[Rizza]

Target: Dušan_g25
Distance: 1.9789% / 0.01978877
68.2 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
20.2 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
11.6 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA

I will try and create another one.

[Rizza]

There is some small imperial admixture, adding such could reduce Slavic for some, it did for me, but i don't think these calcs are scientific , because a lot of plotting is the result of a bottle neck possibly, so people who shift more south will automatically get more near east , people more north more Slavic

[Jana]

Samples are mislabeled to create false impression they are Illyrian. Illyrians are IA, not BA people and some of Croatian samples here are absolutely not Illyrian and are deep into late Roman era.

Distance to: HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%

0.02188382 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.02228585 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.02287059 Greek_Laconia
0.02385524 Italian_Apulia
0.02406366 Greek_Arcadia
0.02430985 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02450328 Greek_Messenia
0.02470113 Greek_Argolis
0.02556178 Italian_Molise
0.02570212 Greek_Elis
0.02573041 Italian_Marche
0.02583142 Greek_Achaea
0.02617344 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02622588 Greek_Thessaly
0.02629525 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.02646996 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02670058 Greek_Corinthia
0.02743987 Greek_Izmir
0.02769063 Italian_Basilicata
0.02913834 Italian_Lazio
0.02921201 Sicilian_East
0.02955415 Italian_Umbria
0.02962268 Greek_Deep_Mani
0.03029776 Italian_Campania
0.03086129 Greek_Macedonia

looool

[Rizza]

Go get a life you loser nobody said they are all IA ILLYRIANS, even the date and labels are added. Some Illyrians are more south others more north.

[Jana]

Sisak sample is absolutely not Illyrian either and plots nothing like Iron Age Croatians or IA Albanians for that matter.
It's a sample from Roman camp from 4th century after Christ.

Distance to: HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%

0.01876951 Greek_Thessaly
0.01881583 Italian_Tuscany
0.01944931 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.01958222 Greek_Achaea
0.01982698 Greek_Elis
0.02022124 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02042989 Greek_Corinthia
0.02071442 Italian_Umbria
0.02078587 Greek_Argolis
0.02105957 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02122005 Greek_Messenia
0.02127062 Albanian
0.02156295 Italian_Marche
0.02198021 Greek_Arcadia
0.02230492 Rumelia_East
0.02247251 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.02347970 Swiss_Italian
0.02360911 Greek_Macedonia
0.02415037 Italian_Piedmont
0.02436498 Greek_Laconia
0.02646305 Italian_Molise
0.02649099 Greek_Izmir
0.02714910 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.02726162 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.02736008 Italian_Abruzzo

You uncompetent Albo troll.

[Selene]

This calculator is a joke.

Rizza, you humiliate normal Albanians with your trolling.

[Rizza]

It is a pre Slavic + post Slavic calculator and contains also Cinamak samples and Iron age Croatia+ Roman period + Slavic + Medieval Albania. Contains samples from all time frames. Nice cherry picking.

[Rizza]

Sisak sample is absolutely not Illyrian either and plots nothing like Iron Age Croatians or IA Albanians for that matter.
It's a sample from Roman camp from 4th century after Christ.

Distance to: HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%

0.01876951 Greek_Thessaly
0.01881583 Italian_Tuscany
0.01944931 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.01958222 Greek_Achaea
0.01982698 Greek_Elis
0.02022124 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02042989 Greek_Corinthia
0.02071442 Italian_Umbria
0.02078587 Greek_Argolis
0.02105957 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02122005 Greek_Messenia
0.02127062 Albanian
0.02156295 Italian_Marche
0.02198021 Greek_Arcadia
0.02230492 Rumelia_East
0.02247251 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.02347970 Swiss_Italian
0.02360911 Greek_Macedonia
0.02415037 Italian_Piedmont
0.02436498 Greek_Laconia
0.02646305 Italian_Molise
0.02649099 Greek_Izmir
0.02714910 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.02726162 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.02736008 Italian_Abruzzo

You uncompetent Albo troll.

Who ever said this sample is specifically Illyrian you idiot? It clearly says Roman period and is written there. Only troll here is you idiot. Its simply a calculator to measure Slavic+ pre Slavic ancestry

[Rizza]

So maybe you are Thracian?

Nah, I'm Illyrian J2b2-L283 an Y-DNA non existant among your people today.

That Sisak sample actually clusters next to Iron Age Illyrians from Northern Albania which I added on the PCA Map here together with me, Sisak sample is south of me

https://i.postimg.cc/DyL8HNsd/Bilde-2022-09-30-153223190.png



Illyrians from Albania are in red.


That's why I get it , it's just more east compared to those. Nothing like those Iron Age Thracians who are South.



Only troll here is you and this other idiot. Claims bunch of Thracians supposedly settled Croatia yet claims to be ''Illyrian'' and ''EV-13'' :lol:

[Jana]

So maybe you are Thracian?

Ignore the drug addict. Best to avoid such apes.

[Rizza]

And no you idiot, Illyrians weren't only Iron Age people, Illyrians already formed in Bronze Age most likely, proto-Illyrian Vucedol + Cetina and later Glasinac Mati , rich in J2b2-L283 + R1b , non existant among Croats today.

Many of these Illyrians in Macedonia and Albania are actually South. And those Roman samples she ran on the calculator from Croatia are nothing like Thracians but possibly Illyrians indeed as they don't cluster too far away. Autosomal DNA can change the burden of proof is on you to prove they aren't.

This calculator contains all samples from different time frames. It seems East shift in the Balkans occurred even before Slavs. Maybe we will find more samples in Roman period that will be 100% identical to me and Slavic will be reduced.


Go troll somewhere else you loser.

[Rizza]

Ignore the drug addict. Best to avoid such apes.

You pretty much just got debunked again :lol:

[Hulu]

This calculator is a joke.

Rizza, you humiliate normal Albanians with your trolling.

Well no, you're wrong actually. Feichi is trolling here not him. And you're clueless, who told you the calculator is a joke. Feiichi is hallucinating at this moment because there are no Illyrians mentioned in the calculator. She's seeing things.

[Rizza]

Ignore the drug addict. Best to avoid such apes.

You come into my thread and start attacking me and make claims nobody even said and you even get disproven, you attack other Albanians here openly who even showed you respect... but I'm the ape :lol:

You make false claims about Albanian genetics and even made yourself look stupid. But I am the one who is the ape ? You cannot even tell the genetics of many of these samples, you're so stupid you just run them on a calculator and think you know based on some populations they get first but you cannot see the whole picture which I showed regarding that Sisak sample.

Claims that we supposedly want to make ourselves more ''Illyrian'' when results are more or less the same if we only use Iron Age samples from Northern Albania and Macedonia or Montenegro. But this is not what this thread is even about. You should get banned from this place 100%.

You should go pluck those eyebrows of yours, they are starting to get thick :lol:

[Loki]

Rizza, stop calling people idiots and insult them. That's the reason why 90% of Albanians were banned from this forum. You have no manners. So, the choice is yours: change your behaviour or be banned.

[Hulu]

Rizza, stop calling people idiots and insult them. That's the reason why 90% of Albanians were banned from this forum. You have no manners. So, the choice is yours: change your behaviour or be banned.

Loki Feichi and Nixie started it. Follow the posts, there's just a few of them and you can clearly see that.

[Gallop]

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 4.2918% / 0.04291803
99.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
1.0 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 4.4720% / 0.04472005
91.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
8.6 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

[Rizza]

Rizza, stop calling people idiots and insult them. That's the reason why 90% of Albanians were banned from this forum. You have no manners. So, the choice is yours: change your behaviour or be banned.

Are you really kidding ? There is nothing wrong with this calculator or the samples. This person comes here and attacks me and has attacked other Albanians in other threads regarding genetics and she even gets proven wrong. I agree I shouldn't be insulting or using swear words but it's really hard when you are dealing with such people. And no 90% of Albanian members definitely were never banned from here. Many Albanian members left this place from names I recognize.

[Gallop]

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 4.2918% / 0.04291803
99.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
1.0 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 4.4720% / 0.04472005
91.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
8.6 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3


Gallop MTA

1. Iron Age Smiljan Croatia
840 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.089 - I23911

2. Late Roman Period Tes Mlynany Slovakia
300 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.571 - R2206

3. Middle Bronze Age Musego Croatia
1375 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.75 - I26774

4. Visigoth Iberian Girona
550 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.765 - I12034

5. Illyrian / Dalmatian
1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.91 - I3313B

Father MTA

1. Late Bronze Age Hostivice-Palouky Central Bohemia
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.847 - I13786

2. Iron Age Teplice Czech Republic
250 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.191 - I17139

3. Iron Age Smiljan Croatia
840 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.485 - I23911

4. Iron Age Vas County Hungary
310 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.702 - I25508

5. Illyrian Slovenia
300 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.77 - I5693

[Freeroostah]

Dont know whats going on but here are my results ;)

Distance to: VangosH_scaled
0.03531626 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.03602333 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.04683678 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.04727646 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.05321666 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.09511405 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3


Target: VangosH_scaled
Distance: 2.8931% / 0.02893101 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.2 Albania_IA_Rom
19.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
15.4 Migration_Period

[Hulu]

Are you really kidding ? There is nothing wrong with this calculator or the samples. This person comes here and attacks me and has attacked other Albanians in other threads regarding genetics and she even gets proven wrong. I agree I shouldn't be insulting or using swear words but it's really hard when you are dealing with such people. And no 90% of Albanian members definitely were never banned from here. Many Albanian members left this place from names I recognize.

That's true. Only Fustan was banned for a good reason, and Laberia because he was being reported by greeks. The rest left on their own. Albanians in this forum were top tier, creme de la creme always. This forum only got interesting because of them and is still riding that wave evven though they left.

[Hulu]

Dear girl, Feiichy is not trolling. Who told me? Simple logic.

If you want so much to be "pure holly ancient brave illyrian", ok, some people believe they can talk with animals, don't bother whole TA with that.

Just spare me your low level drivel. Go elsewhere.

[Selene]

Just spare me your low level drivel. Go elsewhere.

When you and Rizza stop opening 10 threads about this per day and spamming around.

[Rizza]

Dear girl, Feiichy is not trolling. Who told me? Simple logic.

If you want so much to be "pure holly ancient brave illyrian", ok, some people believe they can talk with animals, don't bother whole TA with that.

You're a person who loves to take things out of context. She came in her and attacked me and started accusing me of wanting to make myself ''Illyrian'' , whatever that is supposed to mean. So if you are not trolling where exactly is the problem ? I don't understand ? Why do you come into this thread and ruin everything ? What is you peoples problem exactly ?

She opened thread about Albanian genetics and made claims she could not even back up, only one who has bothered TA with that are you. In that same thread she attacked other Albanian members and insulted them first actually.

[Hulu]

When you and Rizza stop opening 10 threads about this per day and spamming around.

I havent opened any threads. Are you hallucinating too? He's running a calculator. No Illyrians are mentioned, ypu both come here with Illyrians this Illyrians that. And accuse him on being on drugs when it's clear who takes them, otherwise I can't explain your dumbness.

[Jana]

Well no, you're wrong actually. Feichi is trolling here not him. And you're clueless, who told you the calculator is a joke. Feiichi is hallucinating at this moment because there are no Illyrians mentioned in the calculator. She's seeing things.

It's grouped under Iron Age label and it's genetic profile is nothing like Iron Age western Balkans. Thus people scoring/modeling with these samples will erraneously think they have lot of IA Illyrian genetics and they don't.
Deliberate manipulation.

But I know you don't get this.

I'm still waiting for a scientific paper which found many Illyrians with E-V13 clades. You didn't provide that when asked and you never will because that doesn't exist.
Prove us wrong.

[Hulu]

It's grouped under Iron Age label and it's genetic profile is nothing like Iron Age western Balkans. This people scoring this samples will erraneously think they have lot of IA Illyrians genetics and they don't.
Deliberate manipulation.

But I know you don't get this.

I'm still waiting for a scientific paper which found many Illyrians with E-V13 clades. You didn't provide and you never will because that doens't exist.
Prove us wrong.

I showed you my clade. I dont need no paper for that. I dont have time to read papers with the wrong conclusions anyway. I work :lol:

[Selene]

...started accusing me of wanting to make myself ''Illyrian'' , whatever that is supposed to mean...

I have no further questions.

[Jana]

Rizza, stop calling people idiots and insult them. That's the reason why 90% of Albanians were banned from this forum. You have no manners. So, the choice is yours: change your behaviour or be banned.

He is a sock of previously permabanned member Ice T/Wizz. I didn't know socks were allowed in here.

[Hulu]

Rizza can you run my results. I cant run them on my cell.

[Jana]

I showed you my clade. I dont need no paper for that. I dont have time to read papers with the wrong conclusions anyway. I work :lol:

Nah, you have plenty of time to troll here. You can't show evidence because it doesn't exist.

[Hulu]

Nah, you have plenty of time to troll here. You can't show evidence because it doesn't exist.

That's gaslighting. Stop pulling dumb shit on me. It doesnt work. If you are bored find another hobby. Or hubby. Or wife, Nixie seems interested.

[Russki]

I havent opened any threads. Are you hallucinating too? He's running a calculator. No Illyrians are mentioned, ypu both come here with Illyrians this Illyrians that. And accuse him on being on drugs when it's clear who takes them, otherwise I can't explain your dumbness.


Iron Age Croatia was inhabited by Illyrians but he uses a sample of a Roman soldier who was stationed in Croatia to mislead people that Albanians score a high Illyrian.

You two dumb fucks would sell your mothers to be Illyrian lel.

[Jana]

That's gaslighting. Stop pulling dumb shit on me. It doesnt work. If you are bored find another hobby. Or hubby. Or wife, Nixie seems interested.

I asked you for credible evidence of your claims (Illyrians had lot of E-V13) and you have none. You were wrong. Now move on.

[Hulu]

Iron Age Croatia was inhabited by Illyrians but he uses a sample of a Roman soldier who was stationed in Croatia to mislead people that Albanians score a high Illyrian.

You two dumb fucks who would sell your mothers to be Illyrian lel.

Are you Abubu? Same style. Anybody heard you speak Russian?

[Jana]

Iron Age Croatia was inhabited by Illyrians but he uses a sample of a Roman soldier who was stationed in Croatia to mislead people that Albanians score a high Illyrian.

You two dumb fucks who would sell your mothers to be Illyrian lel.

+1

[Hulu]

I asked you for credible evidence of your claims (Illyrians had lot of E-V13) and you have none. You were wrong. Now move on.

I didnt say they had a lot of ev13. Maybe they didnt. But none can say they didnt have any when my clade shows clear proof it was Illyrian for 8000 years. Not Thracian, not Roman.

[Selene]

Are you Abubu? Same style. Anybody heard you speak Russian?

Yes, me. Pure Russian.

He does not live in imagined fairytale like you.

[Rizza]

I have no further questions.

You're nothing but a bunch of trolls. This thread is ruined , I could of ignored you and spared this thread but I like to prove people wrong :D Basically people who have complexes because there lived different populations in Croatia before your peoples arrival. Your complexes are not my problem but go take it out somewhere else.

[Jana]

I didnt say they had a lot of ev13. Maybe they didnt. But none can say they didnt have any when my clade shows clear proof it was Illyrian for 8000 years. Not Thracian, not Roman.

There is one pre-Slavic (but post IA iirc) Croatian with E-V13 and genetic profile that fits to Illyrians to my knowledge, but it left a clade with no Balkan descendants. I know for no others.
we have tons of IA samples from Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, some from Montenegro as well as Messapian tribes in Italy and they bore no E-V13 apart from that single sample with dead end clade.

Make of it what you will. If more sample are found with E-V13 one can change their opinion but so far nothing indicates it was an Illyrian marker.

[Rizza]

@Loki

Just look at some of the posts:

Here she makes claims nobody said:


Samples are mislabeled to create false impression they are Illyrian. Illyrians are IA, not BA people and some of Croatian samples here are absolutely not Illyrian and are deep into late Roman era.

Distance to: HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571

looool

So it is a Roman sample as even the date of the name says AD 571. Claims we are making false impression. Even the date of the sample has been added which I bolded , weather you think it is an Illyrian or not is irrelevant , as if there were no Illyrians during Roman period, but take it to another thread.


Sisak sample is absolutely not Illyrian either and plots nothing like Iron Age Croatians or IA Albanians for that matter.
It's a sample from Roman camp from 4th century after Christ.

Distance to: HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%


You uncompetent Albo troll.


Above here she calls me an 'Uncompotent Albo troll' and claims things I never said. 'Sisak' sample is from the Roman period , even the date has been added once again to the name of the sample. She claims it is not like Iron Age Albania but it actually clusters just east of them. Weather you think it is an Illyrian or not is irrelevant, take it to another thread.




This calculator is a joke.

Rizza, you humiliate normal Albanians with your trolling.


Now look at that other person here , claims this calculator is a joke ^ yet does not really specify why



These are some posts they made in this thread. Basically posts that are totally out of context and false accusations.

[wvwvw]

The Iberian branch of Illyrians and Hellenes (R1b) mixed with the native lineages of the J2 and E-V13 and formed the Illyrians and Hellenes. The Iberian branch spoke a non IE language similar to basque.

The native branch J2 of Illyrians split form the Minoan Greeks in 1450 BC when the Achaeans migrated south and founded the Mycenaean Civilisation.

The primary Iberian marker of the Hellenes ancestors only appears in 1/3 of
the population of Classical Greece. The majority of the people were already
there before the Iberians who formed the Hellenic invaders of 2200 BC
migrated to the Balkans. By the time the Dorians moved south these Iberians
 were already diluted by a 2/3 Helladic mix and were already
 speaking Greek.

Illyrian is also a Hybrid of the language of the Enchelenes and the
indigenous Italo-Celtic language since the Enhelenes colonised Illyria in
1400 BC.

When the Mycenaean Civilisation was at its height the Celts were Italics was
 one tribe which derive from an R1b DNA linage that migrated out of Iberia.
The language of this linage was Basque. It was their contact with the Greeks
 that the Celto-Italics changed their language. This
 is a historical fact recorded by the Romans who claimed Greek decent.

The Tribes of Europe at the time of Ancient Greece and Rome are as follows
(based on the founding fathers DNA evidence):
Unmixed Tribes:
Celts - R1b linage (includes all Spaniards, Gauls and Celt's)
Slavs - R1a linage (includes all Hungarians, Serbs and Bulgarians)
Germanics - I linage
 Finns - N linage


Mixed Tribes:
Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Lydians, Phrygians and Carians

[Jana]

Putting Iron Age Illyrians and late Antiquity Romans with very different genetics under same label is either deliberate manipulation or just being stupid.
I would say Rizza case is both but more leaning to second.

They need to be clearly separated to see how much you score of one and of other.

[Tongio]

The Iberian branch of Illyrians and Hellenes (R1b) mixed with the native lineages of the J2 and E-V13 and formed the Illyrians and Hellenes. The Iberian branch spoke a non IE language similar to basque.

The native branch J2 of Illyrians split form the Minoan Greeks in 1450 BC when the Achaeans migrated south and founded the Mycenaean Civilisation.

The primary Iberian marker of the Hellenes ancestors only appears in 1/3 of
the population of Classical Greece. The majority of the people were already
there before the Iberians who formed the Hellenic invaders of 2200 BC
migrated to the Balkans. By the time the Dorians moved south these Iberians
 were already diluted by a 2/3 Helladic mix and were already
 speaking Greek.

Illyrian is also a Hybrid of the language of the Enchelenes and the
indigenous Italo-Celtic language since the Enhelenes colonised Illyria in
1400 BC.

When the Mycenaean Civilisation was at its height the Celts were Italics was
 one tribe which derive from an R1b DNA linage that migrated out of Iberia.
The language of this linage was Basque. It was their contact with the Greeks
 that the Celto-Italics changed their language. This
 is a historical fact recorded by the Romans who claimed Greek decent.

The Tribes of Europe at the time of Ancient Greece and Rome are as follows
(based on the founding fathers DNA evidence):
Unmixed Tribes:
Celts - R1b linage (includes all Spaniards, Gauls and Celt's)
Slavs - R1a linage (includes all Hungarians, Serbs and Bulgarians)
Germanics - I linage
 Finns - N linage


Mixed Tribes:
Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Lydians, Phrygians and Carians

Wtf i never read so much nonsense in all those forum years.
But just to avoid confusion for newbies, Illiyrian J2b2a1 have nothing tô do with mínoan J2a.They (J2a* and J2b*) separate what, 28.000 years ago in the caucasus region, among pre históric CHG, maybe even before CHG as we know came tô form.

[Hulu]

Putting Iron Age Illyrians and late Antiquity Romans with very different genetics under same label is either deliberate manipulation or just being stupid.
I would say Rizza case is both but more leaning to second.

They need to be clearly separated to see how much you score of one and of other.

But they were similar. If we are more similar to a Roman sample than an Illyrian that works against your argument that we have eastern influence. I dont get your point. Were Illyrians more eastern than Romans or what?
Both Romans and Illyrians had a north to south cline as we do today.

[wvwvw]

Wtf i never read so much nonsense in all those forum years.
But just to avoid confusion for newbies, Illiyrian J2b2a1 have nothing tô do with mínoan J2a.They (J2a* and J2b*) separate what, 28.000 years ago in the caucasus region, among pre históric CHG, maybe even before CHG as we know came tô form.

I meant the Iberian branch of Illyrians R1b.

By 5000 years ago the
 Hittite-Palasgian-Hellenes who lived in Macedonia spilt into two groups, the
Illyrians and the Xuthian-Aeolian-Dorians. By 2200 BC these
Xuthian-Aeolian-Dorians migrated into southern Greece in trickles and by
1450 BC conquered the Minoans.

The Dorian-Pelasgi came to Greece in 2200 BC and later in 1900 BC the Ionians came along and put a wedge between those in the north and those in the Peloponnese. The Dorian-Pelasgi in North-Western Greece became Dorians. Those in the Peloponnese and Thessaly became Pelasgi. The Dorian's were nomadic whereas the Pelasgi were City Dwellers hence their name Polis-gi.

The Archaeological and historical evidence suggests that the Doric-Arcado-Cypriot-Ionians were the original Pelasgains and came to Greece in about 2200 BC. These Pelasgains were descended from the same common ancestors as the Thracians, Cretans and Rhodians in about 2700 BC who together shared the same ancestor with the Illyrians in about 3200 BC and
even further back come the Lydian's and Carains.

The Dorains split from the Pelasgains in 1700 BC and settled in Macedonia and Thessaly and in 1500 BC the Mycenaean's entered the Peloponnese and split from the Proto-Ionians who remained in Atttica.

[Rizza]

Iron Age Croatia was inhabited by Illyrians but he uses a sample of a Roman soldier who was stationed in Croatia to mislead people that Albanians score a high Illyrian.

You two dumb fucks would sell your mothers to be Illyrian lel.

Are you kidding or what ? These are my results with only Iron Age Croatia and Iron Age Albania.

Target: Rizza
Distance: 1.4845% / 0.01484485
62.8 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
22.8 HRV_EIA
14.0 Migration_Period
0.4 HRV_IA

Samples I used here:




ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688,0.122929,0.161469,0.02489,-0.028101,0.028005,-0.015618,0.004935,0.001846,0.000409,0.019499,-0.000974,0.01139,-0.016799,-0.004266,-0.006786,-0.016441,-0.009518,0.004054,0.005028,-0.007253,-0.013601,0.009398,-0.005176,0.011086,-0.007065
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010 641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251,0.124067,0.144205,0.018102,-0.019703,0.025851,-0.003347,0.002115,0.008077,0.000205,0.022233,-0.000974,0.005095,-0.017096,-0.017753,-0.013301,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.003294,0.010182,-0.013006,-0.000125,0.005441,-0.007148,-0.001687,-0.004431
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253,0.130897,0.156392,0.034318,-0.010982,0.035083,-0.000279,0.002115,0.001846,0.0045,0.029158,0.00893 1,0.015436,-0.024083,-0.001927,-0.012893,0.000796,0.012647,0.008361,0.011816,-0.009505,-0.011355,-0.002349,-0.003944,0.008917,-0.007185
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254,0.120652,0.157407,0.039598,-0.006137,0.031698,-0.011992,0.00705,-0.014076,-0.011044,0.033896,-0.002761,0.001349,-0.018137,-0.005918,-0.010586,-0.007558,0.021774,0.00076,-0.009176,-0.013256,-0.006988,-0.003215,-0.010846,0.01446,-0.008382
ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256,0.118376,0.151314,0.02489,-0.005491,0.034468,-0.001673,0.00188,-0.003231,0,0.018406,0.005359,-0.000599,-0.013379,-0.014863,-0.006107,0.013392,0.034943,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.010255,0.01148,0.005812,-0.00037,0.005181,-0.009101
HRV_EIA:I23904,0.120652,0.142174,0.031301,-0.008398,0.023389,-0.001394,-0.001175,0.008077,0.011044,0.028611,0.001299,0.004 796,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.009093,-0.002652,0.008866,0.009882,0.006536,-0.011631,-0.007237,0.000866,0.006409,0.006145,0.000718
HRV_EIA:I23911,0.125205,0.138112,0.032055,-0.006137,0.044624,-0.002789,-0.002115,0.001615,0.01493,0.036083,-0.004709,0.012439,-0.013677,-0.011147,0.003393,-0.008884,-0.001304,0.001774,0.006913,-0.004752,0.001248,0.002349,-0.001479,-0.000964,-0.003473
HRV_EIA:I23995,0.122929,0.145221,0.026776,-0.001938,0.032621,0.003904,0.00658,-0.000462,0.008999,0.026242,-0.00406,0.008542,-0.019772,-0.002615,-0.004479,0.001326,0.005346,0.005701,0.004399,0.002 001,-0.000374,-0.002597,-0.003821,-0.008435,0.001916
HRV_EIA:I23996,0.127482,0.156392,0.033187,-0.000969,0.034776,-0.003347,0.00188,0.000231,0.019839,0.026606,-0.004709,0.009142,-0.025272,-0.003303,-0.005429,-0.016043,-0.001304,0.009375,0.016341,-0.009505,-0.001373,-0.001484,-0.00456,-0.002289,-0.002515
HRV_EIA:I24638,0.135449,0.149283,0.035072,0.00323, 0.039084,0.006136,0.005405,0.005769,0.015953,0.033 167,-0.000487,0.008542,-0.018583,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.003315,0.001434,0.004687,0.006411,0.001876,-0.003619,0.004946,0.003451,-0.007953,-0.004431
HRV_EIA:I24639,0.126344,0.152329,0.036204,0.002261 ,0.031698,0.000558,0.001175,0.003,0.006749,0.02369 1,-0.000812,0.009292,-0.012933,-0.002202,0.00095,-0.001591,-0.009779,-0.001267,0.004525,-0.006878,-0.012977,0.003586,0.003081,-0.004338,0.004311
HRV_EIA:I24879,0.132035,0.138112,0.033941,0.010336 ,0.036314,0.004183,0.000705,0.003231,0.002454,0.02 6242,0.002598,0.008243,-0.022448,-0.012248,-0.002172,0.011933,0.021383,-0.002154,0.007542,5e-04,0.002121,0.000742,-0.004314,0.00494,-0.003592
HRV_EIA:I24882,0.134311,0.150298,0.036204,-0.001615,0.040931,-0.007251,0.001175,-0.004384,0.002659,0.018224,0.002273,0.01124,-0.011893,-0.013349,-0.001764,-0.000928,0.003912,0.000633,0.00264,-0.004127,0.000998,0.004081,0.00493,0.00723,-0.009939
HRV_EIA:I26742,0.124067,0.153345,0.024136,-0.007429,0.035699,-0.008367,0.00141,0.004154,0.014521,0.028793,0.0032 48,0.008692,-0.016353,-0.010459,-0.004614,0.001193,0.006258,-0.000633,0.008925,-0.008004,-0.003119,0.00272,0.002588,0.006145,-0.006227
HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
HRV_IA:I5723,0.124067,0.152329,0.039221,-0.006783,0.045239,-0.00251,0.00188,-0.003231,0.012271,0.030616,-0.004547,0.006444,-0.016501,-0.003441,-0.010043,0.003447,-0.000913,0.000887,0.004902,0.002376,-0.00836,0.001607,-0.004437,-0.001205,0.001557
HRV_IA:I5724,0.126344,0.152329,0.027907,0.006783,0 .033237,-0.00753,0.006815,0.003923,0.01493,0.028976,-0.000162,0.008393,-0.009663,-0.00812,-0.007465,0.001458,-0.002086,0.007348,0.011816,-0.003377,-0.005989,0.011871,0.002095,-0.010724,0.000479
HRV_IA:I5725,0.112685,0.153345,0.039221,0.006783,0 .041238,0.005857,0.000705,-0.001846,0.01309,0.02606,-0.001624,0.010641,-0.010109,-0.009909,-0.001357,-0.002784,0.00326,0.005321,0,0.002751,-0.000624,-0.001978,-0.00912,-0.004097,0.002395
HRV_IA:I5726,0.118376,0.15436,0.040729,-0.002907,0.03693,-0.005857,-0.003995,0.002538,0.014317,0.029522,-0.003248,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.015689,-0.001221,0.01485,0.021905,0.000253,-0.005028,0.005378,-0.001248,-0.003833,-0.006532,0.003615,-0.006826
HRV_IA:I5727,0.124067,0.139128,0.048649,0.026486,0 .040931,0.008646,0.00235,0.006,0.011658,0.017859,-0.001949,-0.000749,0.003568,-0.001651,-0.002443,0.000796,0.001173,-0.001647,0.004148,0.001126,0.001996,-0.003091,-0.008874,-0.003976,0.001437
HRV_IA:I5728,0.124067,0.150298,0.04186,-0.004522,0.041546,-0.010598,0.00094,-0.000231,0.020657,0.0277,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.014123,0.003028,0.001221,-0.011535,-0.007823,0.000887,0.001383,0.001,-0.001747,0.014962,-0.005546,0.004217,-0.008502
HRV_IA:I5729,0.127482,0.149283,0.038466,0,0.032621 ,0.003626,0.001645,-0.003923,0.012476,0.024237,-0.005846,0.014237,-0.018434,-0.005367,-0.003529,0.000398,0.004563,0.00266,0.001885,-0.002126,0,0.000495,0.002835,-0.003735,-0.00455
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664





Even if I add Macedonia Iron Age and Montenegro which were inhabited by Illyrians together with these. Albanians usually score that too before Bulgaria.

Iron Age samples from Croatia in the OP were also added and Iron Age Albania. Those other samples are definitely not Roman soldiers but locals most likely as they cluster like Balkan people more or less , next to Iron Age Albania which I showed on the PCA Map, Sisak clusters just south of me.


Though I don't understand what has that anything to do with the thread ? Nobody even specified such things in the first place.


You're just some insecure nutcases who are making false accusations.

[Jana]

But they were similar. If we are more similar to a Roman sample than an Illyrian that works against your argument that we have eastern influence. I dont get your point. Were Illyrians more eastern than Romans or what?
Both Romans and Illyrians had a north to south cline as we do today.

Illyrians were similar to Italics, but notably more NW than Imperial Romans which were diverse but mainly Greek-like.
they weren't similar. Sisak and novo selo samples are nothing like IA Illyrians from same country.

There are Illyrian like post-IA samples from Croatia but these 2 were not those.

Illyrians from same area were like this and not even remotely close to Greeks:

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5729
0.01916320 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01949346 Italian_Veneto
0.02299119 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02328272 French_Provence
0.02364239 Italian_Northeast


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5728
0.02660396 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02788815 Spanish_Menorca
0.02908803 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02947233 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02985401 Italian_Lombardy


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5726
0.03133777 Spanish_Baleares
0.03164819 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03273003 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03308302 Spanish_Girona
0.03336950 Spanish_Castello


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5725
0.02135420 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02293093 Spanish_Penedes
0.02304082 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02415175 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02426090 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5724
0.02743270 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02803796 Italian_Veneto
0.03205745 Italian_Bergamo
0.03359404 Italian_Northeast
0.03369127 Spanish_Mallorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5723
0.02206328 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02225406 Italian_Bergamo
0.02403735 Italian_Veneto
0.02621592 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02683446 Spanish_Baleares


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I26742
0.01971362 Italian_Bergamo
0.02074188 Italian_Veneto
0.02251567 Italian_Piedmont
0.02295622 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02423634 French_Corsica


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24882
0.02496761 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02497335 Italian_Veneto
0.02635536 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02756537 French_Provence
0.02769401 Italian_Northeast


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24879
0.02895674 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02958585 Swiss_French
0.03275488 French_Provence
0.03448691 Italian_Northeast
0.03632307 Italian_Veneto


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24639
0.02329727 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02473615 Italian_Veneto
0.02592845 Italian_Northeast
0.02700281 Italian_Bergamo
0.02747467 Italian_Lombardy


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24638
0.02507400 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02620934 Spanish_Girona
0.02626161 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02628569 Spanish_Penedes
0.02633317 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23996
0.02916613 Italian_Bergamo
0.03000246 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03125888 Italian_Lombardy
0.03313542 Italian_Veneto
0.03517805 Spanish_Menorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02057799 Italian_Veneto
0.02180827 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02479018 Italian_Bergamo
0.02520178 Italian_Northeast
0.02716413 Spanish_Mallorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23911
0.02147853 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02239344 Spanish_Menorca
0.02311794 Spanish_Baleares
0.02324265 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02379884 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: Illyrians:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.02105956 Italian_Veneto
0.02174158 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02326262 Italian_Northeast
0.02606621 Swiss_French
0.02612681 Italian_Aosta_Valley

[wvwvw]

Try this , created by Bruzmi on Anthrogenica



Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%,0.1201,0.1444,0.0077,-0.0179,0.0246,-0.0079,-0.0002,0.0011,0.0026,0.013,0.0015,0.0047,-0.0102,0.0001,-0.0079,0.0017,0.0101,0,0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0028,0.0013,-0.0018,-0.001,-0.0017
HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664



My results:

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8051% / 0.00805085
49.2 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
36.8 Albania_IA_Rom
14.0 Migration_Period

Can you put any Illyrian, Thracian, Etruscan, Mycenean samples together with modern populations

[Jana]

Very homogenous genetic profile which is SW European like and ranges from North Italian to Iberian and southern French/Alpine French.
thus later Greek like samples from Croatia are clear foreigners that came as Roman soldiers.

[Jana]

Very homogenous genetic profile which is SW European like and ranges from North Italian to Iberian and southern French/Alpine French.
thus later Greek like samples from Croatia are clear foreigners that came as Roman soldiers.

Many are mix of Illyrians and these foreigners too and some even look Thracian.

[Rizza]

Putting Iron Age Illyrians and late Antiquity Romans with very different genetics under same label is either deliberate manipulation or just being stupid.
I would say Rizza case is both but more leaning to second.

They need to be clearly separated to see how much you score of one and of other.

Nobody ever said those samples are Illyrians. What on earth are you even talking about ? They might or they might not be. Genetics can change. The sample clearly states Roman and even has the time frame. So what are you on about ?

[Jana]

I use all these samples in my Croat-specific model and it clearly shows how much of my pre-Slavic is Illyrian and how much is later Roman colonist origin.

[Jana]

for e g. here is post Iron Age Croatian from 4th century AD which is clearly Illyrian because it has same genetics as IA ones.

Distance to: Illyrians:SIMULATED_Croatia_Scitarjevo:R3659___AD_ 313___Coverage_44.68%
0.01619741 Italian_Veneto
0.01714874 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01857600 Italian_Northeast
0.01885922 Italian_Piedmont
0.02022705 Italian_Bergamo

[Rizza]

Can you put any Illyrian, Thracian, Etruscan, Mycenean samples together with modern populations

I will do when I am finished debunking these trolls :D

[Jana]

there are more:


Distance to: Illyrians:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_58.46%
0.03311527 Italian_Bergamo
0.03334920 Italian_Lombardy
0.03562911 Italian_Liguria
0.03777774 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03792410 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Illyrians:R3747___AD_177___Coverage_65.64%
0.02103329 Italian_Tuscany
0.02151787 Italian_Piedmont
0.02414847 French_Corsica
0.02559196 Italian_Marche
0.02590371 Italian_Lombardy


Distance to: Illyrians:R3664___AD_751___Coverage_56.39%
0.03263320 Italian_Northeast
0.03321657 Swiss_Italian
0.03391280 Italian_Veneto
0.03721430 French_Provence
0.03754269 Italian_Aosta_Valley


Distance to: Illyrians:R3663___AD_781___Coverage_41.88%
0.03001273 Italian_Liguria
0.03090423 Italian_Lombardy
0.03266309 Italian_Piedmont
0.03480011 Greek_Thessaly
0.03608626 Italian_Tuscany


Distance to: Illyrians:R3655___AD_220___Coverage_45.18%
0.02711496 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03053671 Italian_Bergamo
0.03091106 Italian_Liguria
0.03170227 Italian_Lombardy
0.03229399 Italian_Veneto


Distance to: Illyrians:R3745___AD_72___Coverage_58.46%
0.03218012 Italian_Bergamo
0.03265234 Italian_Lombardy
0.03476157 Italian_Liguria
0.03656261 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03658866 Italian_Veneto

etc...

while some others are clearly not native, like these:

Distance to: Eastern_Roman-Byzantine::R3742___AD_177___Coverage_46.74%
0.02998833 Greek_Cappadocia
0.03248079 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03562718 Greek_Crete
0.03683034 Greek_Kos
0.03706302 Greek_Dodecanese


Distance to: Eastern_Roman-Byzantine::R3685___AD_500___Coverage_56.14%
0.02168062 Greek_Izmir
0.02213718 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.02353660 Italian_Molise
0.02368313 Italian_Umbria
0.02402766 Italian_Abruzzo


Distance to: Eastern_Roman-Byzantine:Croatia:R3665___AD_171___Coverage_38.20%
0.02780861 Greek_Kos
0.03461354 Greek_Dodecanese
0.03751434 Greek_Crete
0.03819170 Italian_Calabria
0.03822130 Greek_Deep_Mani


Distance to: Eastern_Roman-Byzantine:Croatia_Trogir_Policija:R3670___AD_168__ _Coverage_35.99%
0.03992722 Cypriot
0.04106413 Greek_Kos
0.04438736 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04495001 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04703139 Romaniote_Jew

etc.

[Jana]

And yes, Sisak and Novo selo samples are included as Eastern Roman-Byzantine in my model for Croats. They ain't Illyrian.

[Hulu]

Illyrians were similar to Italics, but notably more NW than Imperial Romans which were diverse but mainly Greek-like.
they weren't similar. Sisak and novo selo samples are nothing like IA Illyrians from same country.

There are Illyrian like post-IA samples from Croatia but these 2 were not those.

Illyrians from same area were like this and not even remotely close to Greeks:

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5729
y

As I said north to south cline as we do today. All of us, Romans, Illyrians, Italians, Albanians. The south influence was stronger on Romans because of isolation, Alps were a barrier. That's why we central and South Illyrians are more similar to them. And if we take history into account their NW source (Illyrians) was from celts. But combined with the southern source makes it iberian like.

Even you did a calculation with ancient samples that showed we were closer to celts, then germanics then slavs. Which confirms history as well.

[wvwvw]

Illyrians were similar to Italics,

Both the Illyrians and the Hellenes were similar to Iberians and had the same R1 lineage as other Italo-Celts.

But that lineage had been mixing with the native Helladic populations of Balkans and Greece for 3000 years, a people who spoke a Greco-Hittite a language similar to proto-Greek.

The Italo-Celts of Italy did not mix with the Greco-Hittite populations of Balkans and Greece. It is after this mix that the Iberian Italo-Celts become proto-Greeks. In classical times, only 1/3 of Ancient Greeks were Iberian-like.

And similarily the Italo-Celts become Illyrians after they get colonized by Cadmus and the Enhellenes. Before that there was no mention of Illyrians before their eponymous founder Ilyrus.

[Jana]

As I said north to south cline as we do today. All of us, Romans, Illyrians, Italians, Albanians. The south influence was stronger on Romans because of isolation, Alps were a barrier. That's why we central and South Illyrians are more similar to them. And if we take history into account their NW source (Illyrians) was from celts. But combined with the southern source makes it iberian like.

not the same cline and closest pops clearly show it. Illyrians were SW Euro like. you are SE Euro like.

[Jana]

Both the Illyrians and the Hellenes were similar to Iberians and had the same R1 lineage as other Italo-Celts.

But that lineage had been mixing with the native Helladic populations of Balkans and Greece for 3000 years, a people who spoke a Greco-Hittite a language similar to proto-Greek.

The Italo-Celts of Italy did not mix with the Greco-Hittite populations of Balkans and Greece. It is after this mix that the Iberian Italo-Celts become proto-Greeks. In classical times, only 1/3 of Ancient Greeks were Iberian-like.

And similarily the Italo-Celts become Illyrians after they get colonized by Cadmus and the Enhellenes. Before that there was no mention of Illyrians before their eponymous founder Ilyrus.

Acient Greeks were very southern people genetically and not similar to all to Italics nor Illyrians.

[wvwvw]

Illyrians from same area were like this and not even remotely close to Greeks:

Those people were not yet Illyrians. They were unmixed Italo-Celts

Mixed Italo-Celts = Illyrians of historical times.

[Hulu]

not the same cline and closest pops clearly show it. Illyrians were SW Euro like. you are SE Euro like.

Were Romans SE?

[Rizza]

Illyrians were similar to Italics, but notably more NW than Imperial Romans which were diverse but mainly Greek-like.
they weren't similar. Sisak and novo selo samples are nothing like IA Illyrians from same country.

There are Illyrian like post-IA samples from Croatia but these 2 were not those.

Illyrians from same area were like this and not even remotely close to Greeks:

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5729
0.01916320 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.01949346 Italian_Veneto
0.02299119 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02328272 French_Provence
0.02364239 Italian_Northeast


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5728
0.02660396 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02788815 Spanish_Menorca
0.02908803 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02947233 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02985401 Italian_Lombardy


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5726
0.03133777 Spanish_Baleares
0.03164819 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03273003 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03308302 Spanish_Girona
0.03336950 Spanish_Castello


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5725
0.02135420 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02293093 Spanish_Penedes
0.02304082 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02415175 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02426090 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5724
0.02743270 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02803796 Italian_Veneto
0.03205745 Italian_Bergamo
0.03359404 Italian_Northeast
0.03369127 Spanish_Mallorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I5723
0.02206328 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02225406 Italian_Bergamo
0.02403735 Italian_Veneto
0.02621592 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02683446 Spanish_Baleares


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I26742
0.01971362 Italian_Bergamo
0.02074188 Italian_Veneto
0.02251567 Italian_Piedmont
0.02295622 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02423634 French_Corsica


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24882
0.02496761 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02497335 Italian_Veneto
0.02635536 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02756537 French_Provence
0.02769401 Italian_Northeast


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24879
0.02895674 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02958585 Swiss_French
0.03275488 French_Provence
0.03448691 Italian_Northeast
0.03632307 Italian_Veneto


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24639
0.02329727 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02473615 Italian_Veneto
0.02592845 Italian_Northeast
0.02700281 Italian_Bergamo
0.02747467 Italian_Lombardy


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I24638
0.02507400 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02620934 Spanish_Girona
0.02626161 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02628569 Spanish_Penedes
0.02633317 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23996
0.02916613 Italian_Bergamo
0.03000246 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03125888 Italian_Lombardy
0.03313542 Italian_Veneto
0.03517805 Spanish_Menorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23995
0.02057799 Italian_Veneto
0.02180827 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02479018 Italian_Bergamo
0.02520178 Italian_Northeast
0.02716413 Spanish_Mallorca


Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23911
0.02147853 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02239344 Spanish_Menorca
0.02311794 Spanish_Baleares
0.02324265 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02379884 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: Illyrians:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Distance to: Illyrians:HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.02105956 Italian_Veneto
0.02174158 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02326262 Italian_Northeast
0.02606621 Swiss_French
0.02612681 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Indeed. And pre-Slavic ancestry of modern Albanians is pretty much North-Italian like and these Illyrians carry the same Y-DNA as Albanians. Illyrian Samples from Albania and Macedonia on average are more south and as I showed in the other PCA Map some of them even cluster more south than me. Some Illyrians could of also mixed. You add all Iron Age Balkan samples together from Macedonia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Croatia, Albania. Albanians alwyas score more Illyrian. So what is your point exactly ? Why are you hung up on some Sisak sample who is most likely a native Balkan sample and clusters just east to Iron Age Illyrians from Albania and south of me ? No Roman I have seen cluster like that nor Near Eastern people but it's not even relevant to the thread.

Let's run some of these Iron Age Illyrian averages from Croatia btw, you basically just cherry picked the samples because many of these Illyrians also cluster all over the place including French and it is likely such profiles changed over the course as we can see later becoming more south as there were already samples that were south, we also have Bronze Age samples that are more south

Some more Illyrians from Croatia:

Distance to: HRV_EIA:I23904
0.02502255 Italian_Veneto
0.02670273 Swiss_Italian
0.02680831 Italian_Bergamo
0.02734474 Italian_Piedmont
0.02818026 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02896575 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02942175 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02986283 Rizza-Albanian
0.02986820 Albanian_Mirditë
0.03010642 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03034878 Italian_Northeast
0.03054387 Italian_Lombardy
0.03135949 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03267342 Italian_Tuscany
0.03300529 Albanian_Pukë
0.03382955 Italian_Liguria
0.03409224 Albanian_Korçë
0.03437561 French_Provence
0.03437888 Albanian_Labëria
0.03445712 Spanish_Baleares
0.03448954 French_Corsica
0.03460066 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.03477322 Greek_Thessaly
0.03537972 Albanian_Himarë
0.03545728 Albanian_Dibra

Distance to: HRV_IA:I3313
0.02400696 Italian_Lombardy
0.02684022 Italian_Bergamo
0.03098048 Italian_Piedmont
0.03132283 Italian_Veneto
0.03232243 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03503135 Italian_Liguria
0.03518854 Rizza-Albanian
0.03523518 Swiss_Italian
0.03570296 French_Corsica
0.03623112 Italian_Tuscany
0.03632296 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.03688984 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.03753591 Albanian_Montenegro
0.03842617 Greek_Thessaly
0.03893473 Italian_Northeast
0.03915370 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03946408 Albanian_Mirditë
0.04091600 Albanian_Himarë
0.04115928 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.04127979 Albanian_Pukë
0.04141894 Albanian_Labëria
0.04160303 Albanian_Korçë
0.04186317 Italian_Marche
0.04203788 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04216678 Spanish_Baleares









Where is Croatia here ? :lol:




Congratulations. You ruined another thread with your insecurities , it is mind blowing how you are not banned yet.

[Rizza]

not the same cline and closest pops clearly show it. Illyrians were SW Euro like. you are SE Euro like.

Nope, they were not all like that, many samples are southern and cluster just west of Albanians pretty much, some even south of me. Just a slight East shift that has occurred which happened to many Balkan people including Greeks, either minor imperial admixture or Slavic possibly.. Other than that Albanians are pretty much 80%-90% identical to some of these samples. Carry 30%-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA so far which is completelty non existant among your people.


Thracians cluster nowhere near Albanians and are even more south than the southern most Albanians. And Albanian is native to the Balkans most definitely.


Most ethnicities have changed a bit since the Iron Age so it is no shock.

[wvwvw]

Acient Greeks were very southern people genetically and not similar to all to Italics nor Illyrians.

Greeks derive their ancestry from the indigenous J2 lineage as well from the first farmers that arrived to Greece 10,000 ago, and also by the Iberian lineage R1b which arrived to the Balkans 5000 years ago. The combination of all those lineages made up the Ancient Greeks.

The population of Europe consists of 10 separate DNA lineages. All of these linage lived separately and never mixed until historical times.

Greece and the Balkans were the only places that were of three mixed lineages J2; EV-13; and R1b.

We know that the R1b lineage did not speak Indo-European but a Basque-like language. The Iberian branch of Hellenes, Illyrians and Italo-Celts that arrived to the Balkans 5000 years ago belonged to the R1b lineage and Indo-Europanised its language after it came in contact with the alredy indigenous J2 and Ev13 lineages.

The Indo-European language developed from Ursula and its husband J2 dna lineage. Bronze age Greeks were of all those three lineages and the same goes for Illyrians.

Before the arrival of the ”Indo-Europeans” who ironically spoke a non-Indo-European language, there was spoken a common language throughout Greece, Balkans and Anatolia, very similar to proto-Greek, the language of Ursula.

[Freeroostah]

Dont know whats going on but here are my results ;)

Distance to: VangosH_scaled
0.03531626 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.03602333 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.04683678 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.04727646 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.05321666 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.09511405 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3


Target: VangosH_scaled
Distance: 2.8931% / 0.02893101 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.2 Albania_IA_Rom
19.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
15.4 Migration_Period

[Rizza]

East shift has occured in All Balkan Populations even medieval and some post medieval samples in Albania cluster like Italics, some cluster more east but of course you love to take things out of context and are clearly clueless about the whole picture or where these samples actually land, in Albanians on average east shift has occurred much less compred to Romanians, Aromanians, etc. this is like saying modern Greeks are not Ancient Greeks because of some change. Most populations cannot claim to be unchanged since the Iron Age. Here I added some Illyrians from Albania and Macedonia to the PCA Map, some cluster right next to Albanian averages and even more south red and green are samples from Albania and Macedonia.

https://i.postimg.cc/nLzB35Vx/dddddd.jpg










Illyrians were Bronze Age people too actually. Formed already in the Bronze Age. One Cetina sample in Croatia clusters like an Albanian. Also it's not like many Iberians or Italians are that far away from Albanians actually. These samples have nothing to do with Italians or Iberians some of them clustering there is pure coincidence, mostly result of WHG + Neolithic + Steppe in different % , Albanians carry these type of genes, I get modelled as North Italian by many calculators + Greek etc. The only troll is you basically. We don't have to use Roman samples here, we come out mostly Illyrian regardless of how you put it . But if you are gonna use samples from Bulgaria add also samples from Macedonia which was inhabited by Illyrians and Ancient Greeks and which many have similar profiles to Iron Age Albania.



Anyway, you are getting really boring, it's time for me to go. You're just a person who is butthurt Albanians came from this population. Nothing else really and you pretty much ruined a thread.

[Rizza]

Here I also added Medieval and Post medieval samples from Albania , some of these samples pretty much touch Iron Age Illyrian cluster and North Macedonia Iron Age cluster

https://i.postimg.cc/t4TMLFbH/Bilde-2022-09-30-190634876.png





This ''nixie'' person keeps spamming me with neg reps btw, and claims I have been ''taught'' something. Only people who have been taught is pretty much you.


I don't know why these trolls are allowed to roam this forum freely like this ?




But I love an argument and to put people right in their place but I'm not gonna waste my time :D

[Jana]

Were Romans SE?

Imperial Romans yes, very woggy like island or Anatolian Greeks or ocassionaly Levantines even.
they are partial reason of eastern shift in Italians and likely Balkanites as well (+ later Slavic)

[Hulu]

Imperial Romans yes, very woggy like island or Anatolian Greeks or ocassionaly Levantines even.
they are partial reason of eastern shift in Italians and likely Balkanites as well (+ later Slavic)

Southern plotting doesnt mean voggy looking. They were light to the point NW Europeans tried to claim them. That's why the source of southerness needs to be identified.

[Rizza]

He made the names so that samples automatically get added together, I changed them a bit

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.8051% / 0.00805085
36.8 Albania_IA_Rom
30.8 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom_Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec
18.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom_HRV_EIA
14.0 Migration_Period



On that PCA MAP I made some Illyrians are not shown because they are very south yet this Feiichy person claims they are all identical, cherrypicks samples that get Spanish etc

[Rizza]

Its pretty much agreed by every serious linguist that Albanian is Illyrian and related to Messapic, this was also argued in a new Dutch study, and that proto Albanian and proto Messapic came to the Balkans before Thracian


It's actually the other way around. Thracians post-date Proto-Albanians in the Balkans and that's actually what all Leiden presentations argued for.

Proto-Thracian movements in the Balkans post-date Proto-Albanian movements by 200-300 years.

E-V13 is of course irrelevant to the discussion about Proto-Thracians as it didn't come from the steppe.


https://i.ibb.co/JqgpsHS/M21.png

Post I got from Anthrogenica

[wvwvw]

Southern plotting doesnt mean voggy looking. They were light to the point NW Europeans tried to claim them. That's why the source of southerness needs to be identified.

Umm..the first aboriginals of Rome say all ancient historians were Arcadian Greeks, followed by Corinthian, Trojan...isn't any kind of Greek tribe that hasn't paraded from Italy.

And 1000 years before the foundation of Rome (or rather its re-foundation), Italy was an Minoan colony after Cronos (Saturn) and was called Saturnia.

And Northern Italy was ruled by Ogyges/Janus an aboriginal of Athens who ruled over Athens, Northern Italy, Illyria, Scythia and Armenia.

[wvwvw]

Its pretty much agreed by every serious linguist that Albanian is Illyrian and related to Messapic, this was also argued in a new Dutch study, and that proto Albanian and proto Messapic came to the Balkans before Thracian

Post I got from Anthrogenica

The Messapians were Messenian colonists who went to Italy after the first Messenian War ended with Messenias defeat in 736 BC.

Messapus date to 1530 BC. Danaus to 1488 or 1471.

The Lucanians are probalby the same tribe as the Lycian Achaeans and thus were descended from king Minos troops who reached Italy in about 1240 BC.

The Marsi (Marsians) were the family of the last Herakild king Myrsilus of Lydia who fled in 717 BC.

The Samnites were Pelasgian colonists from Samos called Samniotes in Greek (as in the famous song Samniotisa - Samniotisa, Samniotisa, pote tha pas sti Samo)

The Paeligni could be the northern Balkan Palesgians who also reached Italy.

The Daunians look like they are the Danae or Danids so must have come from Greece in about 1400 BC.

Picentes were the same as the Picts.

Frentanians were the Britons.

Volscians were the Colchian (modern day Georgians) settlers who were left behind after they failed in ther persuit of Jason and the Argonauts in 1246 BC.

Peucetians were the same tribe as the Bachantes who came from Lydia in 1400-1380 BC.

The Latins came fom Troy.

Celts were Celts

The Umbrians were the same as Cumbrians or the Welsh and probably originated from Croatia.

Oscans, Apulians, Irpini, Auruncians, Hernici, Sabines, Aequi, Falisci, Vestini, Umbrians, Tuscans, Vineti and Ligurii were natives.

[Rizza]

As I said north to south cline as we do today. All of us, Romans, Illyrians, Italians, Albanians. The south influence was stronger on Romans because of isolation, Alps were a barrier. That's why we central and South Illyrians are more similar to them. And if we take history into account their NW source (Illyrians) was from celts. But combined with the southern source makes it iberian like.

Even you did a calculation with ancient samples that showed we were closer to celts, then germanics then slavs. Which confirms history as well.

one non-Albanian guy was using samples from Croatia that cluster like Near Eastern to model Albanians and Balkan people so the guy who made the calc in the OP responded with his own calculator basically, thought I'd share it here to see what people score



You are replying as if I said that Albanians have 0% post-IA admixture which is a statement that nobody can claim for almost all groups anywhere in the world. In a reply to you yesterday I repeated the same view:





On the other hand, we can't know the extent of this admixture which for many individuals might have been negligible, so models should work with a range which assumes an admixture rate from 0% to the highest per sampling from that region. In this case, if you want to use samples from Croatia but not the Trogir dataset, one of the samples closer to Alb_Mdv in terms of local + East Med-like admixture is:




Judging from the G25 sims that we have already, when/if we get G25 coords from samples like the J-L283 from Viminacium or the E-V13 from Naissus as a replacement for Dalmatia/Montenegro, the Migration Period admixture would drop even further. Such figures are consistent with the conclusions from the Southern Arc papers.


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians&p=876427#post876427

I don't understand what is her problem ?


Just go to that link and read his response. Some of these samples have some small imperial admixture . That other guy was arguing people in the Balkans have like 20% - 30% etc

Sample seems like local Balkan people with small admixture like I said , he used it because it was the closest to Alb_mdv , + some east med, sometimes samples can be added together too as a mix of both ancestries

Talk about making drama over nothing :picard1:


I believe some small east med+ slavic which shifted some people more east but not that much, i don't score any of those eastern components that sample scores. It could also be other ancestry, some ancient Balkan samples... some Italian regions shift way more East than Albanians and are way more south

[Rizza]

That guy is far more knowledgeable than she will ever be.

[Selene]

Target: Nixie
Distance: 2.1721% / 0.02172133
72.0 Migration_Period
14.0 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom
14.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom


Target: Nixie
Distance: 2.1721% / 0.02172133
72.0 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
14.0 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
9.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
4.6 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA


Distance to: Nixie
0.03395223 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
0.06682143 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.07183894 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.07484757 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.07746669 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.08797408 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv



There you go if that is what interested you.


Just stop being mean to Feiichy, she really knows a lot and she is my very dear friend.

[wvwvw]

That guy is far more knowledgeable than she will ever be.

Wasn't Feichi the biggest advocate for Albanians being Illyrians? and that Slavs barely had any Illyrian ancestry, what happened? lol

[Rizza]

This same person who created all the drama in this thread basically used similar samples I believe as in the link above to claim Albanians and Balkan people are 30% Near Eastern which is of course false

I definitely don't claim to know everything but its not the first time I see this chauvinist chimp out again over nothing :lol:

[wvwvw]

This same person who created all the drama in this thread basically used similar samples I believe as in the link above to claim Albanians and Balkan people are 30% Near Eastern which is of course false

I definitely don't claim to know everything but its not the first time I see this chauvinist chimp out again over nothing :lol:

Feiichi has always supported Albanians in this forum, she doesn't deserve to be called names even if you disagree with her.

[Rizza]

He even explains why samples should be added together I think:



On the other hand, we can't know the extent of this admixture which for many individuals might have been negligible, so models should work with a range which assumes an admixture rate from 0% to the highest per sampling from that region. In this case, if you want to use samples from Croatia but not the Trogir dataset, one of the samples closer to Alb_Mdv in terms of local + East Med-like admixture is:

Target: Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Coverage_ 57.30%
Distance: 2.9260% / 0.02925961
55.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 GEO_CHG
6.2 Israel_Natufian
1.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
0.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 Han

But you have to add it separately as part of a range which assumes 0% (MNE_LBA/HRV_EIA) to R2041-like admixture. This means the creation of a model which includes:
1. ALB sources from 0% to Alb_Mdv-like admixture, hence Alb_Çinamak (0%) + Alb_Mdv
2. Dalmatia/Montenegro sources 0% to R3547-like admixture
3. a Migration Period/Slavic source


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians&p=876427#post876427

Meanwhile her own calculator gave people 30% Roman imperial, she simply does not understand overlapping components, etc

[Rizza]

Feiichi has always supported Albanians in this forum, she doesn't deserve to be called names even if you disagree with her.

Lol no she hasnt she spreads lies and propaganda . And doesnt seem to have much knowledge about history nor how these calculators or genetics work. I like to read from people who give you new ideas and think outside the box and I definitely don't claim to know everything, just tired of these aggressive hyper nationalists and their agendas. Where do you see any support in this thread for example ? What is there to disagree. Just look at the link I posted. Everything is explained.

No need to come into a thread, go off topic and chimp out

[Rizza]

I didnt say they had a lot of ev13. Maybe they didnt. But none can say they didnt have any when my clade shows clear proof it was Illyrian for 8000 years. Not Thracian, not Roman.

We have several EV-13 ILLYRIAN, one from Iron Age Croatia and several from Roman period and one from medieval

This is another profile of EV-13 found in Naissus

Distance to: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
0.02213164 MKD_Anc
0.02641717 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02676969 ALB_Mdv
0.02707730 HRV_Pop_CA
0.02861375 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.02971800 HRV_BA
0.02987156 ITA_Rome_MA
0.02987771 MKD_BA
0.03030494 ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.03039972 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.03054305 ALB_PostMdv
0.03096004 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.03207600 HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.03212464 ITA_Daunian
0.03249035 ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.03264642 MNE_LBA
0.03441901 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03443172 HUN_EIA
0.03488768 BGR_TellKran_EBA
0.03497976 MDA_Trypillia_Late
0.03500374 BGR_EBA
0.03528632 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03580020 HRV_EBA
0.03605799 ITA_Etruscan
0.03607031 HUN_earlymiddle_Avar

Target: Roman_NaissusR6764-K13-sim
Distance: 1.7677% / 0.01767674
65.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.6 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
4.4 GEO_CHG
0.4 MAR_Taforalt


Like around 40% of Albanian Y-DNA has been found in Western Balkans if we only take into account J2b2 and R1b which her population seems to totally lack. This is not taking into account maternal side. Illyrians also inhabited the central Balkans.


Iron Age and Bronze Age Croatia is filled with J2B2-L283 while seems non existant among her population. I think this troll realized this so she lashes it out on Albanians and takes things out of context. I would ignore this troll from now, incredibly incompetent.

[Rizza]

I think you need to look into a dictionary what defended means if you think this person has defended Albanians. I have seen foreigners who are far more pro Albanian and have far more knowledge about Albanian history . This person is basically just butthurt that Albanians are one of the last survivors of an indigenous Ancient Balkan/Illyrian population. Just some nationalist who is trying to steer us away from our Illyrian ancestors. I have seen enough of this persons posts. Complains about the calc in the OP yet uses near eastern samples to model other people and claims people are 30% near east without understanding overlapping components as explaiend by this Albanian guy who created the calc: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians&p=876427&viewfull=1#post876427

The guy who claims Albanians and Balkan people are like 30%-40% near east and uses samples from Croatia wrote this:



Originally Posted by bce
I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

Code:

Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034, 0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019 615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

https://i.imgur.com/Yt9vDAP.png





The Albanian guys response:



Originally posted by Bruzmi
You are replying as if I said that Albanians have 0% post-IA admixture which is a statement that nobody can claim for almost all groups anywhere in the world. In a reply to you yesterday I repeated the same view:


Originally Posted by Bruzmi
I don't understand why you're replying as if someone claimed that there is 0% post-IA admixture. At the same time, whichever custom pca we use, we can see that all of these admixtures are low and certainly aren't what earlier claims made them to be.
A key rule in good conversations is to reply to what the other side is saying, not to arguments which don't exist in the conversation.

Now, I'll examine your model. The first issue that I have that as you created a three-way model with non-contemporaneous groups, it's certain that it'll cause overlapping...which it does, but it also doesn't provide a very good fit and I'll tell you why it can't do so.

Target: ALB_Çinamak_Anc
Distance: 1.9872% / 0.01987198
60.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.4404% / 0.02440353
58.4 TUR_Barcin_N
33.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.2 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
2.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 Israel_Natufian
0.8 GEO_CHG
0.6 Han

Target: Croatia_Imperial
Distance: 2.2931% / 0.02293063
52.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.4 GEO_CHG
8.2 Israel_Natufian

Target: Slavic:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3 (the key point is low ANF, not the lack of a proper base source for the Baltic drift)
Distance: 5.7416% / 0.05741599
43.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
17.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

Your model doesn't have a very good fit because all the post-Çinamak sources have lower ANF than the Albanian average on G25. You can see the overlapping in the 30% "Croatia_Imperial" component which doesn't correspond to the components which Albanians should have if they had ~30% ancestry from this source.

The IA ancestors of Albanians didn't have contacts with East Med-like and Slavic-like groups at the same time, so models of this kind should be just two-way ones: pre-medieval + Migration Period. The second issue is that we shouldn't pick arbitrarily which samples fit the contacts of Albanians with East Med-like groups. We have samples which show that contact (e.g. Alb_Mdv), hence we don't have to calculate it ourselves. Alb_Mdv samples look nothing like the Croatia_Imperial average which you created hence we know for a fact that East Med-like admixture in Roman Albania didn't look at all like what you're describing:

Target: ALB_Mdv
Distance: 2.2292% / 0.02229232
63.6 TUR_Barcin_N
31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 GEO_CHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

On the other hand, we can't know the extent of this admixture which for many individuals might have been negligible, so models should work with a range which assumes an admixture rate from 0% to the highest per sampling from that region. In this case, if you want to use samples from Croatia but not the Trogir dataset, one of the samples closer to Alb_Mdv in terms of local + East Med-like admixture is:

Target: Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Coverage_ 57.30%
Distance: 2.9260% / 0.02925961
55.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 GEO_CHG
6.2 Israel_Natufian
1.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
0.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 Han

But you have to add it separately as part of a range which assumes 0% (MNE_LBA/HRV_EIA) to R2041-like admixture. This means the creation of a model which includes:
1. ALB sources from 0% to Alb_Mdv-like admixture, hence Alb_Çinamak (0%) + Alb_Mdv
2. Dalmatia/Montenegro sources 0% to R3547-like admixture
3. a Migration Period/Slavic source


Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.


Based on the above:

Code:

Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%,0.112685,0.144205,0.002263,-0.031654,0.021542,-0.010877,0.00517,-0.002538,0.001636,0.01877,0,0.006145,-0.00996,0.004817,-0.014386,-0.012463,-0.004303,-0.005954,-0.003394,-0.000875,-0.011729,0.000866,0.002218,-0.000482,0.000239
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

https://i.ibb.co/KwKptL9/G25pop33.png


Another close sample is:

Target: Croatia/Montenegro_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
Distance: 1.6494% / 0.01649370
54.4 TUR_Barcin_N
29.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
4.6 GEO_CHG
3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.4 Israel_Natufian

but we only have g25 sims for it. Just for comparison purposes, I created a separate model which replaces R3547 with R2041

Code:

Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%,0.1201,0.1444,0.0077,-0.0179,0.0246,-0.0079,-0.0002,0.0011,0.0026,0.013,0.0015,0.0047,-0.0102,0.0001,-0.0079,0.0017,0.0101,0,0.0013,-0.0004,-0.0028,0.0013,-0.0018,-0.001,-0.0017
HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664


https://i.ibb.co/BV1ZTd2/G25.png

Both are better fits than your model and they correspond to base components in a much better way. Albanian_G25 is the existing Albanian average on G25 and Alb_new_G25 is an average I created with just the official Albanian G25 coords which I've gathered.

Code:

Albanian_new_G25,0.1250916,0.1457284,0.0166129,-0.0182818,0.0257279,-0.0083667,0.003243,0.0013614,-0.0001021,0.0190802,-0.0007146,0.0044958,-0.0071359,0.0063443,-0.0201952,-0.0018031,0.0129469,0.0003802,0.0066997,-0.0073536,-0.0101322,0.0004452,0.0017624,0.0034221,-0.0034847

Judging from the G25 sims that we have already, when/if we get G25 coords from samples like the J-L283 from Viminacium or the E-V13 from Naissus as a replacement for Dalmatia/Montenegro, the Migration Period admixture would drop even further. Such figures are consistent with the conclusions from the Southern Arc papers.

PS I don't want to start another discussion about this subject. You posted some models and I showed how models with better fits can show different results. In the past, I've posted models with even better fits in the same direction but I want to move to other topics. The lesson to learn is that Migration Period admixture is much lower than what some people assume without testing all possibilities.

EDIT:

PS.2. It also doesn't lower Migration Period admixture in terms of a "model effect", as you can see for Serbs, for whom it reproduces the Lalueza-Fox (2022) conclusion (50-60% Slavic/40-50% Balkan) without increasing the pre-Slavic component:

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.3535% / 0.01353505
56.0 Migration_Period
38.2 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
5.8 Albania_IA_Rom






Near Eastern + Slavic component will get dropped usually anyway , although it is there and has shifted people a bit more east maybe I believe but not that huge, nothing compared to some Italians, Greeks, Romanians, Macedonians, Bulgarians etc.

[Ylla]

that’s my take on it aswell. The calculators are already limited and biased as they depend on data in the source. They can only tell you equivalence. There could be multiple sources of east med input and nobody seems to consider the huge Greek settlement in Italy and across the Balkans. Roman settlement is too limited of an explanation for my liking.
I probably do have excess Roman admix most likely eastern Christians, but majority of Albanians have too low Near Eastern admixture to account for that. Also just because the E-V13 Croatian sample has left no descendants doesn’t mean there weren’t clades that have. Isn’t it common sense to think the fact that one sample has been identified is more than enough evidence that Illyrians we’re carriers of EV13 although as a minority clade.

[Rizza]

that’s my take on it aswell. The calculators are already limited and biased as they depend on data in the source. They can only tell you equivalence. There could be multiple sources of east med input and nobody seems to consider the huge Greek settlement in Italy and across the Balkans. Roman settlement is too limited of an explanation for my liking.
I probably do have excess Roman admix most likely eastern Christians, but majority of Albanians have too low Near Eastern admixture to account for that. Also just because the E-V13 Croatian sample has left no descendants doesn’t mean there weren’t clades that have. Isn’t it common sense to think the fact that one sample has been identified is more than enough evidence that Illyrians we’re carriers of EV13 although as a minority clade.

I don't score any Near East

Target: Rizza
Distance: 2.1362% / 0.02136161
55.6 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 WHG
4.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



Anyway here is a PCA Map an Albanian guy made

https://i.ibb.co/1XjH3Qq/Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-3.png

[Rizza]

............

[Rizza]

These Illyrians from Northern Albania belong to J2b2-L283 and R-PF7563>Z29758 one of the most major and diverse Albanian lineages https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/ ,

I used that Sisak sample and modelled it with Ancient samples and many others, the components these samples score causes overlap.

[Rizza]

I was told that it's common to not cluster exactly 100% with Iron Age or Bronze Age samples. Apparently Basque are one of the few.

[Rizza]

I def don't think Albanians have much Near Eastern ancestry. I cluster very West right next to these samples. Every single Balkan ethnicity clusters more east than Albanians including non-Balkanites like Southern Italians and even some central Italians who according to a paper have more Near Eastern ancestry from Roman period. And many of these mixed samples from the Balkans are locals that mixed with Near Easterns apparently. If you look at the map I posted some of those Iron Age Sampels from North Macedonia and Cetina Bronze and even some Cinamaks literally touch the Albanian cluster. So we are most definitely not talking about ''different clines'' here once we add individuals rather than averages.

And on that same map even some medieval samples are clustering like some moderns. Also on another map I made post medieval samples where touching Ancient Macedonia cluster.The change is overall small if anything for a place like the Balkans that has been a crossroad of so many different people. We have to wait for more samples. Some people are shifted more East-North East maybe due to Slavic component overall + some Imperial but for a lot of others such ancestry is very negligible. Depends also how East-West or South-North your pre-Slavic ancestors were.


EV-13 I def don't believe is a Thacian marker alone nor spread supposedly with East Med, it's an Y-DNA widespread across Europe and much more numerous than J2b2-L283.

[alexmegas777]

Distance to: alexmegas(Romanian)_scaled
0.04042761 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.04164363 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.04663844 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.04669961 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.05737017 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.06741847 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: alexmegas(Romanian)_scaled
Distance: 2.4454% / 0.02445431
33.8 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
33.6 Migration_Period
32.6 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom

[vasiliki23]

Distance to: VASILIKI_scaled
0.03163724 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.03475496 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.03614463 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.03847839 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.04090221 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%
0.09411179 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: VASILIKI_scaled
Distance: 2.3305% / 0.02330466
45.4 Albania_IA_Rom
42.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
12.6 Migration_Period

[Kenshiro]

Target: Kenshiro_scaled
Distance: 2.0462% / 0.02046234
51.8 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
48.2 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
without Alb MDV
Target: Kenshiro_scaled
Distance: 2.5255% / 0.02525506
89.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
5.6 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
5.0 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc

[celticdragongod]

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.06957790 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
0.07860960 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.09063935 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.09402026 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.10502707 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.11547272 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 5.9180% / 0.05917992
58.6 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
41.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA

[celticdragongod]

Try another one here



Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc,0.1239044,0.1531999 ,0.0288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv,0.120273,0.1502983,0.015838 7,-0.0279933,0.0196957,-0.007251,-0.00141,-0.0031537,0.0025907,0.0223547,0.000487,0.0052957,-0.014519,9.2e-05,-0.0152457,-0.0100767,0.0092573,0.000718,0.0085057,-0.0132563,-0.0108557,0.005276,-0.0013557,-0.0038957,-0.003393
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA,0.1276082,0.1472518,0.0320973,-0.0011843,0.0354596,-0.0009297,0.0016711,0.002359,0.0107942,0.0275177,-0.0005954,0.008992,-0.0170796,-0.0077679,-0.0019151,-0.0021068,0.003868,0.0031109,0.0071369,-0.0045022,-0.0027036,0.0016899,0.0006983,5.34e-05,-0.0025813
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%,0.112685,0.144205,0.002263,-0.031654,0.021542,-0.010877,0.00517,-0.002538,0.001636,0.01877,0,0.006145,-0.00996,0.004817,-0.014386,-0.012463,-0.004303,-0.005954,-0.003394,-0.000875,-0.011729,0.000866,0.002218,-0.000482,0.000239
HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA,0.1270678,0.1491904,0.0278726,-0.0069885,0.0273337,-0.00573,-0.0005768,0.0010698,0.0039603,0.0292077,0.0040745, 0.0097005,-0.01342,-0.006781,-0.0104628,3.6e-05,0.006377,0.0004607,0.0056794,-0.0089245,-0.0069195,0.0050474,-0.0004818,0.0054114,-0.0012845
Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3,0.13089 7,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.0 08225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.00065,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664



Distance to: Rizza
0.02425632 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.02504395 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.02856914 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.02883914 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.03972089 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%
0.08613507 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3

Target: Rizza
Distance: 0.9451% / 0.00945101
45.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
38.8 Albania_IA_Rom
16.2 Migration_Period

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.06957790 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
0.07860960 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.09063935 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.09402026 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.11547272 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.12155201 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Novo_selo_Bunje:R3547___AD_571___Co verage_57.30%

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 5.9180% / 0.05917992
58.6 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
41.4 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA

[Voskos]

Target: vosk
Distance: 4.4149% / 0.04414945
83.8 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom
16.2 Albania_IA_Rom

[tk'es]

Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 11.5598% / 0.11559754
100.0 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom


Distance to: tk'es_scaled
0.11559754 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:Croatia_Sisak_Pogorelec:R2041___AD_303___Co verage_50.40%
0.12428571 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Mdv
0.13128764 Albania_IA_Rom:ALB_Cinamak_Anc
0.13364854 HRV/MNE_IA_Rom:MNE_LBA
0.13863710 HRV/MNE_LBA/IA_Rom:HRV_EIA
0.15685162 Migration_Period:TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3