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Jingle Bell
10-22-2022, 01:04 PM
I was reading this article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2#MOESM1, and they show the impact of the Celtic migrations in UK:
116024
How SE England have more celtic dna than Wales, Ireland and Scotland??? Even after the vikings and Anglo-Saxons? Or maybe i am misreading this article?
Ty
JamesBond007
10-22-2022, 01:33 PM
I was reading this article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2#MOESM1, and they show the impact of the Celtic migrations in UK:
116024
How SE England have more celtic dna than Wales, Ireland and Scotland??? Even after the vikings and Anglo-Saxons? Or maybe i am misreading this article?
Ty

You are reading it wrong. England is more CNE (Danish/North German) and Frankish (West Germany, Belgian, French) than Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. There is also no such thing as Celtic DNA and France_IA is certainly not a proxy for it unlike England _IA and Hallstatt_Bylanny ( sp?) the latter two of which plot very differently on a PCA.
Africanwidow
10-22-2022, 02:45 PM
You are reading it wrong. England is more CNE (Danish/North German) and Frankish (West Germany, Belgian, French) than Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. There is also no such thing as Celtic DNA and France_IA is certainly not a proxy for it unlike England _IA and Hallstatt_Bylanny ( sp?) the latter two of which plot very differently on a PCA.

Nor is France IA a proxy for Frankish. You can't tell me what the Frankish genetically were since their genetic origins are unknown. France IA corresponds with Gaul. If we were ever were to get Frankish samples they would've probably be close to NLD IA.
J. Ketch
10-22-2022, 02:55 PM
Because large numbers of non-Celtic speaking French/Gaulish people and mixed Franks came into England alongside and after the Anglo-Saxons, but not much in Wales, Scotland or Ireland.
Jingle Bell
10-22-2022, 03:00 PM
You are reading it wrong. England is more CNE (Danish/North German) and Frankish (West Germany, Belgian, French) than Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. There is also no such thing as Celtic DNA and France_IA is certainly not a proxy for it unlike England _IA and Hallstatt_Bylanny ( sp?) the latter two of which plot very differently on a PCA.

Oh my bad, what reference they used to Celts so?
I am very confuse with this article, maybe is my bad english who are helping me to read this wrong
Ty
Jingle Bell
10-22-2022, 03:15 PM
You are reading it wrong. England is more CNE (Danish/North German) and Frankish (West Germany, Belgian, French) than Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. There is also no such thing as Celtic DNA and France_IA is certainly not a proxy for it unlike England _IA and Hallstatt_Bylanny ( sp?) the latter two of which plot very differently on a PCA.

I think France IA (Gaul or proto-Gaul) can be used like a reference for proto-Celt/early-Celt dna:
look the distances: (Are Averages, all with more than 12 samples)
116026
JamesBond007
10-22-2022, 03:16 PM
Oh my bad, what reference they used to Celts so?
I am very confuse with this article, maybe is my bad english who are helping me to read this wrong
Ty

WBI; which includes Irish, Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I don't have time to autistiscally go over the article but France_IA is probably significantly southwestern continental shifted so not 'celtic' at least not like the WBI average sample which is probably significantly different.
Africanwidow
10-22-2022, 03:20 PM
WBI; which includes Irish, Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I don't have time to autistiscally go over the article but France_IA is probably significantly southwestern continental shifted so not 'celtic' at least not like the WBI average sample which is probably significantly different.

What's 'Celtic' about WBI when the modern pops closest to it are Irish, Scottish and Welsh? WBI is pre-Celtic Beaker folk.

By the way, ludicrous and odd to suggest a 'significantly southwestern continental shifted' reference should represent the Lower Rhine area (Belgium, Germany)
Jingle Bell
10-22-2022, 03:21 PM
WBI; which includes Irish, Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. I don't have time to autistiscally go over the article but France_IA is probably significantly southwestern continental shifted so not 'celtic' at least not like the WBI average sample which is probably significantly different.

I am not talking abt the Insulars celts (Which are BBC + Continental Celt) , i am saying abt early Celt component, like Hallsttat or something related, and i was thinking if France IA was the reference which they were using to represent these Celts's
And France Ia are not rly SW shifted, its pretty much identical to Hallsttat or La Tene:
116027
JamesBond007
10-22-2022, 03:40 PM
I am not talking abt the Insulars celts (Which are BBC + Continental Celt) , i am saying abt early Celt component, like Hallsttat or something related, and i was thinking if France IA was the reference which they were using to represent these Celts's
And France Ia are not rly SW shifted, its pretty much identical to Hallsttat or La Tene:
116027

"A comparison with present-day Britain indicates that subsequent demographic events reduced the fraction of continental northern European ancestry while introducing further ancestry components into the English gene pool, including substantial southwestern European ancestry most closely related to that seen in Iron Age France5,6."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2#MOESM1

The article is in the context of the British isles, not France, so WBI is the 'celtic sample'. It starts out as an CNE+WBI (analysis) old school British then made further analysis with France_IA which they claim is a proxy for southwestern european genes at least relatively speaking compared to old school british demographics.
Jingle Bell
10-22-2022, 03:52 PM
"A comparison with present-day Britain indicates that subsequent demographic events reduced the fraction of continental northern European ancestry while introducing further ancestry components into the English gene pool, including substantial southwestern European ancestry most closely related to that seen in Iron Age France5,6."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2#MOESM1

The article is in the context of the British isles, not France, so WBI is the 'celtic sample'. It starts out as an CNE+WBI (analysis) old school British then made further analysis with France_IA which they claim is a proxy for southwestern european genes at least relatively speaking compared to old school british demographics.

Oh i get it now
Tysm
JamesBond007
10-22-2022, 04:27 PM
Oh i get it now
Tysm

You are welcome. The key takeaways from the article is not the false 'southeast England is more Celtic than the British Celtic fringe' but:

1.)Britain used to be more CNE (angle-saxon).

2.) Modern Brits have more WBI and France_IA genes but England is still more CNE as well as France_IA than Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

3.) English people are more continental shifted than the Irish, Welsh and Scottish.
J.S.
10-22-2022, 11:02 PM
I am not talking abt the Insulars celts (Which are BBC + Continental Celt) , i am saying abt early Celt component, like Hallsttat or something related, and i was thinking if France IA was the reference which they were using to represent these Celts's
And France Ia are not rly SW shifted, its pretty much identical to Hallsttat or La Tene:
116027

France IA is Gaulish, so i don't really understand how it couldn't be Celtic...furthermore, everybody here knows that only Gauls were labeled Celtic by Ancients Authors.
J.S.
10-23-2022, 05:31 PM
By the way, authors found that Alt-Inden Merovingians can be modeled as 92% France_Grand_Est IA1 based on qpAdm. According to G25, it's hard to believe. Which tool is right?
Jingle Bell
10-23-2022, 05:41 PM
France IA is Gaulish, so i don't really understand how it couldn't be Celtic...furthermore, everybody here knows that only Gauls were labeled Celtic by Ancients Authors.

Yep, looks like Gauls were 95% or more La Tene/Hallsttat, they are almost identical to early celts from BA
Jingle Bell
10-23-2022, 05:42 PM
By the way, authors found that Alt-Inden Merovingians can be modeled as 92% France_Grand_Est IA1 based on qpAdm. According to G25, it's hard to believe. Which tool is right?

Merovigians were Franks correct? So they were germanic
U have this samples from Merovingians? Try using Averages, the distance can be bigger but the result ill prob be a lot mote correct
J.S.
10-23-2022, 05:47 PM
Merovigians were Franks correct? So they were germanic
U have this samples from Merovingians? Try using Averages, the distance can be bigger but the result ill prob be a lot mote correct


Yes, they are supposed to be Germanic. They are (mis)labelled Merovingians, based on archeological burial.
Africanwidow
10-23-2022, 05:49 PM
Yes, they are supposed to be Germanic. They are (mis)labelled Merovingians, based on archeological burial.

How do the other Alt-Inden Merovingians score on qpAdm? Thanks for the interesting insight.
J.S.
10-23-2022, 05:59 PM
How do the other Alt-Inden Merovingians score on qpAdm? Thanks for the interesting insight.

https://i.imgur.com/a5qtb1m.png
https://i.imgur.com/97GLyFO.png
https://i.imgur.com/DSzdZXW.png
https://i.imgur.com/AlCQawy.png
https://i.imgur.com/zPEfwvW.png
J.S.
10-24-2022, 05:25 AM
https://pastebin.com/raw/pRLqH3h5




Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND001,0.113823,0.123895,0.053174,0.046835,0 .044008,0.016176,-0.00188,0.005769,0.002863,-0.005285,-0.008444,0.012439,-0.013379,-0.015827,0.019272,0.010209,-0.002868,0.001774,0.002891,-0.002001,0.012478,0.00272,-0.008134,0.004338,-0.003592
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND002,0.120652,0.133034,0.056568,0.043282,0 .036622,0.014781,-0.00329,0.005307,0.007976,0.014214,-0.003897,0.006145,-0.018731,-0.00523,0.016694,-0.000928,-0.014212,0.001014,0.000628,-0.006878,0.000499,-0.000495,0.000986,0.000361,0.006347
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND003,0.112685,0.13405,0.033187,0.005814,0. 031698,0.005299,0.002115,0.009923,0.007158,0.01148 1,0.001624,0.00045,-0.010555,-0.004266,0.00665,0.005304,0.004172,0.005321,0.0033 94,-0.003877,0.002496,0.007296,0.006902,0.014098,0
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND004,0.119514,0.135065,0.043369,0.014858,0 .042162,0.007251,-0.007285,0.010615,0.014317,0.01385,-0.006171,-0.003747,-0.006987,-0.008257,0.008007,0.010872,-0.002217,-0.004814,0.004022,-0.004502,0.006988,-0.005688,-0.007518,0.00241,0.003592
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND005,0.118376,0.141159,0.04714,0.020995,0. 029852,0.004183,-0.002115,0.001615,0.006545,0.01713,-0.004709,0.008542,-0.009663,-0.003716,0.013572,0.009546,0.004042,-0.006334,-0.000377,-0.001626,-0.002246,0.005688,-0.00037,0.00964,-0.000958
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND006,0.110408,0.137096,0.032809,0.003876,0 .042162,0.001673,-0.001645,0.007384,0.015339,0.038634,0.000162,0.005 245,-0.020812,-0.007982,0.001357,0.00053,0.007302,0.007221,0.0020 11,-0.006628,-0.000624,-0.00643,-0.006162,0.006145,0.00934
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND007,0.129758,0.144205,0.058077,0.037468,0 .048009,0.015618,0.00188,0.004384,0.007772,0.01640 1,-0.007795,0.003297,-0.015907,-0.017065,0.013165,0.023336,0.009518,0.005194,0.009 176,-0.000375,0.00262,-0.001978,-0.001479,0.006748,0.001676
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND008,0.129758,0.127957,0.059962,0.04845,0. 0397,0.013108,0.003525,0.004615,0.007567,0.003462,-0.003573,0.003447,-0.007433,-0.003991,0.009229,0.012463,-0.008996,0.005321,0,0.002251,0.00574,0.003462,0.00 5176,0.005422,-0.003712
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND009,0.09675,0.144205,-0.01961,-0.055879,0.010771,-0.02259,0,-0.007615,-0.001841,0.02934,0.002436,0.004346,-0.011001,-0.000826,-0.0057,-0.005569,0.000913,-0.002407,0.007793,-0.013006,0.004118,0.008532,0.001725,0.00241,-0.010298
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND010,0.106994,0.109677,0.033564,0.017765,0 .019388,0.005578,-0.00141,0.000923,-0.01084,-0.00328,0.003735,0.010191,-0.001041,-0.001514,0.00285,-0.011005,-0.01695,0.004054,-0.00176,-0.004877,-0.009483,0.006183,-0.005793,0.006989,-0.00958
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND011,0.119514,0.150298,0.06939,0.013566,0. 060934,0.003068,-0.00658,-0.003231,0.024338,0.041914,-0.008931,0.015286,-0.024232,-0.025735,0.000814,0.027711,0.009127,0.005448,0.008 673,-0.003126,0.010232,0.010881,-0.001972,-0.006868,-0.004071
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND012,0.124067,0.145221,0.030547,0,0.037853 ,0.003904,0.0047,0.006461,0.011453,0.01713,-0.005521,0.003747,-0.013082,-0.017753,0.003122,0.011535,0.015255,-0.0019,0.008673,0.004752,-0.004742,0.005812,0.002095,0.004338,0.002515
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND013,0.124067,0.133034,0.058077,0.055556,0 .037853,0.013108,0.00423,0.004384,0.006545,-0.005649,-0.005521,0.007793,-0.009068,-0.010322,0.025515,0.005038,-0.014081,0.003421,0.005656,0.007253,0.001996,0.001 978,-0.0053,0.007832,-0.002754
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND014,0.1161,0.137096,0.038843,0.015504,0.0 35391,0.006693,-0.00047,0.002077,0.001227,0.015308,-0.007145,0.008093,-0.014717,-0.016377,0.008279,0.012596,0.007562,-0.00076,0.002263,0.00025,0.001123,0.00136,0.006162 ,0.010965,0.000718
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND015,0.114961,0.152329,0.008674,-0.009044,0.019388,0.000558,0.003055,-0.009923,0.007363,0.034989,0.002273,0.012139,-0.021704,-0.009634,-0.005972,0.002519,0.018254,0.00266,0.006913,-0.004627,0.002371,0.001978,0.001232,0.000843,0.003 233
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND016,0.108132,0.138112,0.059962,0.04199,0. 033852,0.016455,-0.00376,0.015692,-0.000614,-0.013121,-0.002761,0.001049,-0.010704,-0.001239,0.006243,0.016706,-0.022035,0.002154,0.004148,-0.009379,-0.008485,0.000124,-0.011092,0.013978,0.001078
Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND017,0.118376,0.139128,0.043746,0.01938,0. 038469,0.011435,-0.00235,0.007846,0.004295,0.015855,-0.007307,0.003597,-0.013528,-0.003165,0.018322,-0.003447,-0.017211,0.000887,-0.003897,-0.00988,0.005116,0.001237,0.00037,0.018436,0.00035 9
J.S.
10-24-2022, 05:27 AM
Yep, looks like Gauls were 95% or more La Tene/Hallsttat, they are almost identical to early celts from BA

That is shown by qpAdm from Origin and mobility of Iron Age Gaulish groups in present-day France revealed through archaeogenomics.
https://i.imgur.com/ExdqHMN.png
Tables S5: qpAdm values for three sources model with BA groups from Europe, related to STAR Methods
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8983337/bin/mmc6.xlsx
J.S.
10-25-2022, 06:58 PM
delet
J.S.
10-25-2022, 06:59 PM
https://i.imgur.com/6zKeAgo.png
https://i.imgur.com/vIWDDt1.png
Obviously, according to theses two PCA plots, the G25 coordinates of the Alt-Inden samples are wrong.
Sebbo
02-21-2023, 02:50 PM
https://pastebin.com/raw/pRLqH3h5

Thanks for posting that. Are there also G25 regional averages for the different English counties?
J.S.
02-24-2023, 07:48 PM
Thanks for posting that. Are there also G25 regional averages for the different English counties?
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html
Beowulf
02-24-2023, 08:01 PM
https://pastebin.com/raw/pRLqH3h5

Target: IvorixG25
Distance: 1.3032% / 0.01303213
47.8 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden
16.2 England_Sussex_Apple_Down_West_Chichester
12.8 England_Norfolk_Sedgeford
12.8 Netherlands_Groningen
8.4 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland
2.0 England_Lincolnshire_Lincoln_Castle

not bad

btw thank u a lot for posting these samples it really helps a lot :thumb001:
Dick
02-24-2023, 08:01 PM
The Roman legions that invaded Britain were comprised of Gauls and some Iberian mercenaries
celticdragongod
02-24-2023, 11:20 PM
Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.02279397 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland:BUK035.bam
0.02317235 Netherlands_Friesland_Midlum:MDM007
0.02340209 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO005
0.02342197 Germany_Schleswig-Holstein_Rathausmarkt:SWG002
0.02443172 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S20671
0.02514587 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO010
0.02519582 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L006
0.02557554 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S11587
0.02570813 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S20670
0.02572549 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L044
0.02576315 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO007
0.02590835 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L025
0.02604539 England_Suffolk_RAF_Lakenheath:LAK015
0.02612350 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L023
0.02617991 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND013
0.02629962 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland:BUK036.bam
0.02667470 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S20659
0.02672339 England_Cambridgeshire_Hatherdene_Close:HAD009
0.02676472 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S20652
0.02679207 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L037
0.02680283 England_Suffolk_RAF_Lakenheath:LAK009
0.02704215 England_Cambridgeshire_Ely:ELY005
0.02736924 England_Cambridgeshire_Hatherdene_Close:HAD001
0.02750934 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L013
0.02751811 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO014

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 0.8394% / 0.00839391
18.6 Netherlands_Groningen
16.4 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland
16.2 England_Cambridgeshire_Oakington
12.4 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton
10.6 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden
7.6 England_Cornwall_Newquay_Crantock
7.2 Denmark_Zealand_Sct_Clements_Copenhagen
3.8 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat
3.2 Germany_Schleswig-Holstein_Rathausmarkt
2.2 England_Sussex_Apple_Down_West_Chichester
1.8 England_Norfolk_Sedgeford

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 0.8394% / 0.00839416
13.6 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO014
12.6 England_Yorkshire_West_Heslerton:S20652
11.4 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland:BUK014.bam
10.8 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND012
9.2 England_Cambridgeshire_Oakington:OAI016
7.4 England_Cornwall_Newquay_Crantock:S16389
7.2 Denmark_Zealand_Sct_Clements_Copenhagen:KPN014
5.0 England_Cambridgeshire_Oakington:OAI017
5.0 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland:BUK025.bam
4.2 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO001
3.2 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L006
2.8 Germany_Schleswig-Holstein_Rathausmarkt:SWG015
2.2 England_Sussex_Apple_Down_West_Chichester:S20608
2.0 England_Cambridgeshire_Oakington:SI0763
1.8 England_Norfolk_Sedgeford:SED006
0.8 Ireland_Roscommon_Kilteasheen_The_Bishop's_Seat:KI L031
0.8 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO019
gixajo
02-25-2023, 12:07 AM
Target: IvorixG25
Distance: 1.3032% / 0.01303213
47.8 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden
16.2 England_Sussex_Apple_Down_West_Chichester
12.8 England_Norfolk_Sedgeford
12.8 Netherlands_Groningen
8.4 England_Kent_Dover_Buckland
2.0 England_Lincolnshire_Lincoln_Castle

not bad

btw thank u a lot for posting these samples it really helps a lot :thumb001:

Many of those samples are directly not "Celto-Germanic" or are very mixed.

https://i.postimg.cc/bJmMScG2/germ1-alt-linden.png (https://postimg.cc/2bBTgt7z)
Sebbo
02-25-2023, 04:35 PM
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html

Thank you, I meant to ask whether there are averages for the various counties from the Reich study. I see that there are ancient samples available from the study but I wondered about modern ones. :)
Beowulf
02-25-2023, 04:50 PM
Many of those samples are directly not "Celto-Germanic" or are very mixed.

https://i.postimg.cc/bJmMScG2/germ1-alt-linden.png (https://postimg.cc/2bBTgt7z)

estas son las que me han salido:


Target: IvorixG25
Distance: 1.2407% / 0.01240680 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.2 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND006
15.6 Netherlands_Groningen:GRO006
13.0 Netherlands_Friesland_Midlum:MDM006
11.0 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND009
11.0 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND011
7.0 England_Sussex_Apple_Down_West_Chichester:S20605
5.8 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND004
5.4 Germany_Lower_Saxony_Hannover-Anderten:ADN015.bam
2.2 Germany_North_Rhine-Westphalia_Alt-Inden:IND012
1.8 England_Norfolk_Sedgeford:SED012
J.S.
02-25-2023, 06:15 PM
Many of those samples are directly not "Celto-Germanic" or are very mixed.

https://i.postimg.cc/bJmMScG2/germ1-alt-linden.png (https://postimg.cc/2bBTgt7z)


Either some of them are outliers or the G25 PCA plot do not correspond well to the study's PCA.
J.S.
02-25-2023, 06:20 PM
Thank you, I meant to ask whether there are averages for the various counties from the Reich study. I see that there are ancient samples available from the study but I wondered about modern ones. :)

Modern populations averages from Reich study. i don't think so.
Sebbo
02-26-2023, 08:31 PM
https://i.imgur.com/6zKeAgo.png
https://i.imgur.com/vIWDDt1.png
Obviously, according to theses two PCA plots, the G25 coordinates of the Alt-Inden samples are wrong.

I tried looking for this PCA in the Anglo Saxon paper but couldn't find it, which figure number is it in the supplementary materials? Thanks