Balt like people in antique southern Panonnia

[Jana]

idk if samples are carbon-dated but we have some extreme NE European genetic profiles from eastern Croatia and northern Serbia.
which ethnic groups they belonged too? They are extremely northern.

could these be proto Slavs? Or? Hard to imagine any Balts migrated down there, but...they cluster like modern Balts and Baltic-like Russians


Distance to: HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280
0.02842084 Russian_Pskov
0.03132949 Lithuanian_VA
0.03203686 Russian_Tver
0.03301761 Lithuanian_PA
0.03384526 Estonian
0.03430717 Lithuanian_RA
0.03539247 Russian_Kursk
0.03581244 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03630268 Russian_Ryazan
0.03634937 Lithuanian_SZ


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150
0.03157195 Latvian
0.03182402 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03627177 Lithuanian_RA
0.03687694 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04131605 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04255829 Lithuanian_VA
0.04363796 Estonian
0.04517937 Russian_Pskov
0.04666200 Lithuanian_PA
0.05328828 Belarusian


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146
0.03203751 Lithuanian_VA
0.03423692 Lithuanian_PA
0.03571393 Lithuanian_RA
0.03604847 Russian_Pskov
0.03857698 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03931255 Estonian
0.04093936 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04111409 Russian_Kaluga
0.04130789 Latvian
0.04154476 Russian_Tver

their coords here:

HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280,0.126344,0.11577,0.07844 1,0.077197,0.036314,0.031794,0.00846,0.018922,-0.006545,-0.034625,0.000162,-0.013788,0.015015,0.015276,-0.007057,0.013922,0.021253,-0.005701,0.001508,0.009004,-0.004991,-0.004822,0.000739,-0.005904,0.004191
SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150,0.124067,0.119832,0. 09164,0.101422,0.047701,0.038208,0.01034,0.017768, 0.001023,-0.039363,-0.004547,-0.019033,0.038057,0.03592,-0.019137,0.003447,0.014994,-0.007095,-0.00088,0.003126,-0.007736,-0.005935,0.003328,-0.007109,-0.002634
SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146,0.136588,0.126941,0. 090132,0.072675,0.044624,0.030678,0.005405,0.01499 9,-0.005931,-0.025695,-0.004709,-0.008992,0.016055,0.014175,-0.013572,0.014717,0.026598,-0.004814,-0.001383,0.007379,0.00025,-0.008779,0.002095,-0.005784,-0.000958

[Jana]

with K13 converted averages


Distance to: HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280

0.03786215 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.03884571 Russian_Ryazan
0.03914726 Russian_Pskov
0.04134088 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04174980 Russian_Southwest
0.04221890 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04372826 Russian_Smolensk
0.04429368 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04461209 Estonian
0.04475842 Lithuanian_Žemaitija


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150

0.05137090 Latvian
0.05406409 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.05639789 Russian_Pskov
0.05692230 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.06086413 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.06110466 Estonian
0.06326707 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.06407308 Belarusian_Minsk
0.06768661 Russian_Smolensk
0.06866155 Russian_Ryazan

Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146

0.04055798 Russian_Pskov
0.04095903 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04118757 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04185239 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.04246390 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04303851 Russian_Smolensk
0.04341625 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.04379295 Polish_Kujavia
0.04414358 Polish_Mazovia
0.04415367 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl

[knez01]

I score very high Baltic on all Eurogenes calculators, at least for an southern shifted Dalmatian, it makes sense there are more Baltic shifted Slavs that migrated here before Croatians. Since I've seen a lot of Croatians in general have a very high variation of Baltic, from 20 to 40+.

[MandM]

Wouldent be impossible thate slavs or other peolpe went there, could have been an opportunity for a better life maby,
Remeber an geneoligist said that people moved around more then we think

[Jana]

To me this strongly implies early Slavs were Baltic-like genetically in their undiluted form. Ukrainians are not pure Slavs at all.
this fits with Baltic like genomes in medieval southern Moravia too.

And also, this implies theory that Baltic and Slavic did not separate at same time from common Balto-Slavic, but that Slavic is just an southern offshot of Baltic and Balts are our fathers so to say, not siblings.
they are the original form, Slavs are just their mutated offspring.

This is huge!!! And ofc it implies modern south Slavs and even Ukrainians or west Slavs for eg. are less Slavic than we tought.

[Jana]

If Slavs were Baltic like, than majority of south Slavs is less than half Slavic and some like Macedonians have very modest Slavic input. This would fit better with historical/archeological expectations tbh.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Corded ware

[Jana]

Corded ware

these are not Corded Ware samples, they are thousands of years younger than that.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

To me this strongly implies early Slavs were Baltic-like genetically in their undiluted form. Ukrainians are not pure Slavs at all.
this fits with Baltic like genomes in medieval southern Moravia too.

And also, this implies theory that Baltic and Slavic did not separate at same time from common Balto-Slavic, but that Slavic is just an southern offshot of Baltic and Balts are our fathers so to say, not siblings.
they are the original form, Slavs are just their mutated offspring.

This is huge!!! And ofc it implies modern south Slavs and even Ukrainians or west Slavs for eg. are less Slavic than we tought.
Corded Ware are proto-Slavic. Slavs are a mix of proto-Slavs (corded ware) and balts (and sometimes meds).

[Jana]

Corded Ware are proto-Slavic. Slavs are a mix of proto-Slavs (corded ware) and balts (and sometimes meds).

Proto Slavs appear thousands of years after Corded Ware. Just don't post retarded comments if you have no clue about genetics.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

these are not Corded Ware samples, they are thousands of years younger than that.
Oh, ok.
I thought you asked who the proto-Slavs were?
Those examples could still be unmixed slavs.

You can find corded ware in both Russia and the Baltic states.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Just don't post retarded comments if you have no clue about genetics.
Have you been having mood swings recently?

[Jana]

Oh, ok.
I thought you asked who the proto-Slavs were?
Those examples could still be unmixed slavs.

You can find corded ware in both Russia and the Baltic states.

Both Balts and Slavs largerly descend from Corded Ware, but it's such a huge time difference that Corded Ware isn't really relevant in this discussion.
Proto Slavs (and Balts) seem to be Baltic BA like people.

Point is that everything suggests unmixed Slavs were extremely northern and not like Ukrainians.
thus using Ukrainians to measure undiluted Slavic input is wrong, they aren't pure whatsoever.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Both Balts and Slavs largerly descend from Corded Ware, but it's such a huge time difference that Corded Ware isn't really relevant in this discussion.
Proto Slavs (and Balts) seem to be Baltic BA like people.

Ok. What do you think happened with them?

[Jana]

Ok. What do you think happened with them?

If such pure Baltic like genetic profiles reached these lands, it means south Slavs are not that Slavic (in original sense) and most is less than 50%.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

If such pure Baltic like genetic profiles reached these lands, it means south Slavs are not that Slavic (in original sense) and most is less than 50%.
That could be very possible. I get the sense that Balkan is like 50% Slav and 50% indigenous Balkan/something else, but I think there have been discussions about this previously (can't remember name of thread) that have said something similar?

Do you think this creates the variation in mentality that is found in the Balkans? Like, is i. e. Slovenia so successful because of variety of ancestry?

[sevruk]

Here are two more Balto-Slavs from a Greek colony in Sicilyм

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943,0.126344,0.11881 7,0.07731,0.082042,0.035083,0.029562,0.005405,0.01 1999,-0.015339,-0.043919,-0.000812,-0.012289,0.016353,0.015276,-0.012215,0.014452,0.025816,-0.005701,-0.009679,0.008004,-0.001248,-0.00643,0.008504,-0.016147,-0.000958
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949,0.124067,0.11069 3,0.081835,0.078489,0.03416,0.031794,0.015276,0.00 7615,-0.008181,-0.025149,-0.001786,-0.009591,0.009663,0.018579,-0.014658,0.005038,0.006519,0.003294,0.006788,0.011 13,-0.001373,-0.010758,0.00456,-0.013616,0.004311


Distance to: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949

0.02793746 Russian_Tver

0.02819275 Russian_Yaroslavl

0.02854847 Russian_Pskov

0.03018958 Lithuanian_PA

0.03037234 Russian_Kursk

0.03140686 Lithuanian_VA

0.03224679 Russian_Ryazan

0.03225537 Estonian

0.03259225 Russian_Kaluga

0.03338444 Lithuanian_RA

0.03366937 Belarusian

0.03405470 Russian_Orel

0.03432665 Russian_Voronez

0.03435835 Ukrainian_Dnipro

0.03563647 Russian_Smolensk

0.03593693 Ukrainian_Rivne

0.03610605 Latvian

0.03631042 Cossack_Ukrainian

0.03653638 Lithuanian_SZ

0.03661201 Ukrainian_Chernihiv

0.03726363 Lithuanian_VZ

0.03830675 Russian_Belgorod

0.03881999 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

0.03929730 Ukrainian_Sumy

0.04001722 Lithuanian_PZ



Distance to: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943

0.03961185 Russian_Pskov

0.04022612 Lithuanian_VA

0.04111703 Lithuanian_RA

0.04216998 Lithuanian_SZ

0.04230927 Lithuanian_PA

0.04241510 Russian_Tver

0.04290576 Latvian

0.04548454 Russian_Kursk

0.04661177 Estonian

0.04706918 Russian_Yaroslavl

0.04734944 Russian_Ryazan

0.04736715 Russian_Kaluga

0.04866237 Lithuanian_VZ

0.04879449 Cossack_Kuban

0.04925407 Lithuanian_PZ

0.04935145 Ukrainian_Chernihiv

0.04989307 Ukrainian_Rivne

0.05006233 Russian_Orel

0.05011721 Belarusian

0.05026421 Ukrainian_Dnipro

0.05060144 Russian_Voronez

0.05175259 Russian_Belgorod

0.05201203 Russian_Smolensk

0.05223595 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

0.05540165 Polish

[Ajeje Brazorf]

idk if samples are carbon-dated but we have some extreme NE European genetic profiles from eastern Croatia and northern Serbia.

They were radiocarbon dated. Hard to say whether they really lived at that time; there are some samples more or less similar to modern Slavs who lived even before Christ.

Slavo-centric PCA from different angles.

https://i.imgur.com/gzy5tfl.png
https://i.imgur.com/d1Vsqok.png
https://i.imgur.com/oMbKr8M.png

[Vega7]

Those samples are too early to be from the Slavic migrations. And you have to consider that the Slavs who migrated in large numbers to Croatia would have likely been form the southern periphery of the Slavic region.

Many populations migrated south like the various German tribes (who also inhabited or migrated through the Baltic region or places like Poland). That timeline is more realistic for, for example, the Vandals.

"The Vandals migrated to the area between the lower Oder and Vistula rivers in the second century BC and settled in Silesia from around 120 BC. They are associated with the Przeworsk culture and were possibly the same people as the Lugii. Expanding into Dacia during the Marcomannic Wars and to Pannonia during the Crisis of the Third Century"

The migratory path that the Goths took also went through the modern Baltic states.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Vandals

[Tongio]

Those samples are too early to be from the slavic migrations. And you have to consider that the slavs who migrated to croatia would have likely been form the southern periphery of the slavic region, making those samples as evidence of original slavs entirely unrealistic.

Many populations migrated south like the goths.

Yes, maybe they were Varangians.

[Jana]

Yes, maybe they were Varangians.

No. Goths had entirely different genetic profile resembling modern Swedes.

[Vega7]

Yes, maybe they were Varangians.

It's hard to say. But that timeline is much more consistent with the various Germanic migrations. And the historical Germanic regions include parts of what we now call Baltic states and I think even northern Russia.

Depending on the theory, I think the original Balts are thought to have lived in modern day Belarus. Then the language spread to the Baltic sea coast and the Slavic language spread to the region of the original Balts. This is going by the oldest hydronyms anyway.

[Vega7]

No. Goths had entirely different genetic profile resembling modern Swedes.


They would have inevitably been somewhat diverse. Especially considering they would have changed as they brought people in along their migratory path.

There is an effort on this forum to both simplify and consider historical populations to have been more 'pure' or consistent than they likely were.

[Vega7]

You can see here where the Goths lived around 50 AD. This is Northern Poland.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/GermansAD50.svg/2560px-GermansAD50.svg.png

[Jana]

Those samples are too early to be from the Slavic migrations

They are genetically 100% Balto-Slavic which means such people already starting to appear at Danubian Limes (maybe as recruited soldiers) much earlier than expected.


And you have to consider that the Slavs who migrated in large numbers to Croatia would have likely been form the southern periphery of the Slavic region.

Not really. All Slavs were genetically homogenous. We have such Baltic like samples appearing from eastern Germany to southern Moravia and even Sicily.


Many populations migrated south like the various German tribes (who also inhabited or migrated through the Baltic region or places like Poland). That timeline is more realistic for, for example, the Vandals.

"The Vandals migrated to the area between the lower Oder and Vistula rivers in the second century BC and settled in Silesia from around 120 BC. They are associated with the Przeworsk culture and were possibly the same people as the Lugii. Expanding into Dacia during the Marcomannic Wars and to Pannonia during the Crisis of the Third Century"

The migratory path that the Goths took also went through the modern Baltic states.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Vandals

These samples have zero Germanic genetics and have nothing to do with them.

[Jana]

They would have inevitably been somewhat diverse. Especially considering they would have changed as they brought people in along their migratory path.

There is an effort on this forum to both simplify and consider historical populations to have been more 'pure' or consistent than they likely were.

They were not diverse. Core Gothic samples from Poland were Scandinavian like.

I am not interested in genetics of people they recruited along the way. They were culturally Avar people who were Slavs. That is not point of interest here. But genome of proto Slavs.

[Vega7]

They were not diverse. Core Gothic samples from Poland were Sacandinavian like.

I am not interested in genetics of people they recruited along the way. They were culturally Avar people who were Slavs. That is not point of interest here. But genome of proto Slavs.

But you are interested in considering samples from 150 AD (before the Slavic migrations) as examples of Slavs? lol. You are just trying to make a story fit that doesn't make any sense.

Something's gotta give and your assumption about the genetic profile of Germans who migrated is the most obvious thing that could be wrong.

[Jana]

But you are interested in considering samples from 150 AD (before the Slavic migrations) as examples of Slavs? lol. You are just trying to make a story fit that doesn't make any sense.

Are you stupid? What else could they be? There were no Balts coming to Croatia and Serbia. Slavs already existed at that time. They can be either Balts or Slavs.

Them being Balts is extremely unlikely. Which means early Slavs and Balts were almost identical.

[Tongio]

No. Goths had entirely different genetic profile resembling modern Swedes.

But i said Varangians, in the case of the greek and south italian ones.Varangians were suposedly east slavs with some swedish viking admix.

[Jana]

Something's gotta give and your assumption about the genetic profile of Germans who migrated is the most obvious thing that could be wrong.

It's not asumption. We already have genetics of early Germanic tribes.

[Vega7]

Are you stupid? What else could they be? There were no Balts coming to Croatia and Serbia. Slavs already existed at that time. They can be either Balts or Slavs.

Them being Balts is extremely unlikely. Which means early Slavs and Balts were almost identical.

I already stated that they were probably German or at least from the German migrations. You obviously want to arrive at a certain conclusion (that makes zero sense) and are making whatever assumptions necessary in an attempt to validate it. You are not some scholar or genetics expert despite your high post count.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that a sample from 150 AD in Croatia is from a Slavic migration.

[Jana]

But i said Varangians, in the case of the greek and south italian ones.Varangians were suposedly east slavs with some swedish viking admix.

Makes no sense. Varangians were Swedes and you don't need Varangians to explain Sicilian samples when we have genetically identical people already present in southern Pannonia.

[Jana]

I already stated that they were probably German or at least from the German migrations.

Are you mental? They have 0 Germanic or German genetics. Lmao.


You obviously want to arrive at a certain conclusion (that makes zero sense) and are making whatever assumptions necessary in an attempt to validate it. You are not some scholar or genetics expert despite your high post count.

I'm Einstein if you are retarded enough to claim Balto-Slavs are Germanic. Lmao.


There is absolutely no reason to believe that a sample from 150 AD in Croatia is from a Slavic migration.

It's not a migration, idiot. These samples are found at Roman military camps. They were probably barbarian (in this case Slavs) recruits from eastern Europe. We also have Germanic and Sarmatian samples present there.

[Jana]

Here are two more Balto-Slavs from a Greek colony in Sicilyм

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943,0.126344,0.11881 7,0.07731,0.082042,0.035083,0.029562,0.005405,0.01 1999,-0.015339,-0.043919,-0.000812,-0.012289,0.016353,0.015276,-0.012215,0.014452,0.025816,-0.005701,-0.009679,0.008004,-0.001248,-0.00643,0.008504,-0.016147,-0.000958
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949,0.124067,0.11069 3,0.081835,0.078489,0.03416,0.031794,0.015276,0.00 7615,-0.008181,-0.025149,-0.001786,-0.009591,0.009663,0.018579,-0.014658,0.005038,0.006519,0.003294,0.006788,0.011 13,-0.001373,-0.010758,0.00456,-0.013616,0.004311


Distance to: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949

0.02793746 Russian_Tver

0.02819275 Russian_Yaroslavl

0.02854847 Russian_Pskov

0.03018958 Lithuanian_PA

0.03037234 Russian_Kursk

0.03140686 Lithuanian_VA

0.03224679 Russian_Ryazan

0.03225537 Estonian

0.03259225 Russian_Kaluga

0.03338444 Lithuanian_RA

0.03366937 Belarusian

0.03405470 Russian_Orel

0.03432665 Russian_Voronez

0.03435835 Ukrainian_Dnipro

0.03563647 Russian_Smolensk

0.03593693 Ukrainian_Rivne

0.03610605 Latvian

0.03631042 Cossack_Ukrainian

0.03653638 Lithuanian_SZ

0.03661201 Ukrainian_Chernihiv

0.03726363 Lithuanian_VZ

0.03830675 Russian_Belgorod

0.03881999 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

0.03929730 Ukrainian_Sumy

0.04001722 Lithuanian_PZ



Distance to: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943

0.03961185 Russian_Pskov

0.04022612 Lithuanian_VA

0.04111703 Lithuanian_RA

0.04216998 Lithuanian_SZ

0.04230927 Lithuanian_PA

0.04241510 Russian_Tver

0.04290576 Latvian

0.04548454 Russian_Kursk

0.04661177 Estonian

0.04706918 Russian_Yaroslavl

0.04734944 Russian_Ryazan

0.04736715 Russian_Kaluga

0.04866237 Lithuanian_VZ

0.04879449 Cossack_Kuban

0.04925407 Lithuanian_PZ

0.04935145 Ukrainian_Chernihiv

0.04989307 Ukrainian_Rivne

0.05006233 Russian_Orel

0.05011721 Belarusian

0.05026421 Ukrainian_Dnipro

0.05060144 Russian_Voronez

0.05175259 Russian_Belgorod

0.05201203 Russian_Smolensk

0.05223595 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

0.05540165 Polish

Yes. Really cool findings.

[Vega7]

Are you mental? They have 0 Germanic or German genetics. Lmao.



I'm Einstein if you are retarded enough to claim Balto-Slavs are Germanic. Lmao.



It's not a migration, idiot. These samples are found at Roman military camps. They were probably barbarian (in this case Slavs) recruits from eastern Europe. We also have Germanic and Sarmatian samples present there.

They don't need it. I saw on another forum samples from Gotland who were very high in Baltic, similar to modern day northern Poles and Balts.

You are using modern linguistics of various regions to determine what the genetics of ancient populations were like. You yourself are arguing that Croatians are not very Slavic, that it was more so a linguistic shift. But the same is likely to have happened to originally German populations that lived along the Baltic Sea coast that were assimilated into another language group.

The Slavs didn't interact with the Romans at all, which is why they had no writing system until 800 AD. If they were with the Romans, then they were obviously German and not Slavic.

[Jana]

They don't need it. I saw on another forum samples from Gotland who were very high in Baltic, similar to modern day northern Poles and Balts.

You saw Viking era samples from Gotland which included foreign slaves and mercanaries. Core Germanic genetics is known, especially that of Goths.
Goths from (Kowalenko) Poland were Swedish like while early German tribes like Alemanni or Bavarians were Norwegian like (Langobards too)


You are using modern linguistics of various regions to determine what the genetics of ancient populations were like.
No.


You yourself are arguing that Croatians are not very Slavic, that it was more so a linguistic shift.

No. We are still notably Slavic, but not as much as we'd be when using Ukrainian proxy. I'm still over 50% Slavic when modeling with these samples.


But the same is likely to have happened to originally German populations that lived along the Baltic Sea coast that were assimilated into another language group.
The Slavs didn't interact with the Romans at all, which is why they had no writing system until 800 AD. If they were with the Romans, then they were obviously German and not Slavic.

Ofc they interacted with Romans lmao, that's how we are created.

And just quit with German nonsense, you sound mentally retarded. I guess you are pissed because your shitty Ukrainian people aren't pure Slavs as you previously believed.

[Vega7]

You saw Viking era samples from Gotland which included foreign slaves and mercanaries. Core Germanic genetics is known, especially that of Goths.
Goths from (Kowalenko) Poland were Swedish like while early German tribes like Alemanni or Bavarians were Norwegian like (Langobards too)


No.



No. We are still notably Slavic, but not as much as we'd be when using Ukrainian proxy. I'm still over 50% Slavic when modeling with these samples.



Ofc they interacted with Romans lmao, that's how we are created.

And just quit with German nonsense, you sound mentally retarded. I guess you are pissed because your shitty Ukrainian people aren't pure Slavs as you previously believed.

I am not even fully Ukrainian. Although I am mostly. I think you are just mad that you are not pure slavic and so you don't want anyone to be. lol.

The samples I saw I recall being from before the Viking age. I will try to find the thread, but it was from some time ago.

I understand you want me to just take your word on ancient German genetics, but here you are arguing that a sample in Croatia from 150 AD is from a Slav so forgive me for not just taking your word on it. You don't exactly come across as reliable.

And no they did not interact with the Romans, which is why there are only theories about where Slavs originated. Germans got their runes from an old Italic alphabet. This is because they actually interacted with the Romans. The Slavs did not, so they did not get any writing system until much later.

[Jana]

I am not even fully Ukrainian. Although I am mostly. I think you are just mad that you are not pure slavic and so you don't want anyone to be. lol.

They were like Balts instead. Cry me a river.


The samples I saw I recall being from before the Viking age. I will try to find the thread, but it was from some time ago.

:laugh:


I understand you want me to just take your word on ancient German genetics

I don't care about your feelings, early Germanic samples are not some public secret and are instead available to check on Davidski ancient spreadsheet. You're lazy to do that? None of my business.
I'm not you mommy who will serve anything for you, make some effort and learn a thing or two about genetics.


but here you are arguing that a sample in Croatia from 150 AD is from a Slav so forgive me for not just taking your word on it. You don't exactly come across as reliable.

It obviously is since it's genetic is such. This sample is a massive outlier just like Serbian ones are too. And it's in Panonnia, not Balkans, where Slavic like genetics already started to ocassionaly appear since Iron Age.


And no they did not interact with the Romans, which is why there are only theories about where Slavs originated. Germans got their runes from an old Italic alphabet. This is because they actually interacted with the Romans. The Slavs did not, so they did not get any writing system until much later.

Ofc they interacted with Romans dumbass. Hence historic records about Slavs attacking Roman cities and taking Romans as slaves after massive invasions to Balkans.
But that was centuries after these samples that are likely individual Roman recruits from beyond Danubian Limes.

[Vega7]

I always knew you ugly subhumans can't be pure Slavs. They were like Balts instead. Cry me a river.



:laugh:



I don't care about your feelings, early Germanic samples are not some public secret and are instead available to check on Davidski ancient spreadsheet. You're lazy to do that? None of my business.
I'm not you mommy who will serve anything for you, make some effort and learn a thing or two about genetics.



It obviously is since it's genetic is such. This sample is a massive outlier just like Serbian ones are too. And it's in Panonnia, not Balkans, where Slavic like genetics already started to ocassionaly appear since Iron Age.



Ofc they interacted with Romans dumbass. Hence historic records about Slavs attacking Roman cities and taking Romans as slaves after massive invasions to Balkans.
But that was centuries after these samples that are likely individual Roman recruits from beyond Danubian Limes.

lol. Post a source showing that Slavs migrated into Croatia during 150 AD. Or that the Romans took Slavs as slaves during that time. And also try to explain why Romans did not give their writing system to Slavs like they did to the Germans. I will wait.

You have 50k posts on this website. Calling anyone a subhuman while throwing a temper tantrum because someone is challenging a bias you want validated is pure irony.

[Vega7]

Ofc they interacted with Romans dumbass. Hence historic records about Slavs attacking Roman cities and taking Romans as slaves after massive invasions to Balkans.
But that was centuries after these samples that are likely individual Roman recruits from beyond Danubian Limes.

This is not the Romans interacting with Slavs. This is the Slavs attacking the Romans. The Romans were unable to spread their culture (writing) to Slavs because they were never the subjugators against them like they were with the Germans, which is the point I was making. It is extremely unlikely that any Roman slave during antiquity was a Slav. Otherwise, they would have spread their culture and writing to the Slavs like they did to the Germans.

[Jana]

lol. Post a source showing that Slavs migrated into Croatia during 150 AD.

How mental are you? It's one sample and massive outlier from near Hungarian border into deep Pannonia.
You understand idiot? I guess not.

Slavs did NOT migrate to far eastern Croatia in antiquity. However, Romans apparently recruited few Slavic warriors here and there, near the Limes. Neither did Sarmatians ever migrate to Croatia dumbass, but we have Sarmatian outlier sample from same region as well. Recruitment of barbarians as federati is not exactly a secret.


Or that the Romans took Slavs as slaves.

Slavs took Roman as Slavs. That's what I said and that is written in Roman sources about Balkan invasion centuries later.


And also try to explain why Romans did not give their writing system to Slavs like they did to the Germans. I will wait.

Totally irrelevant.


You have 50k posts on this website. Calling anyone a subhuman while throwing a temper tantrum because someone is challenging a bias you want validated is pure irony.

Bias? Only brutal imbecile can come and trash a thread and claim extreme NE Europeans were Germans.
Get out of here idiot.

[Jana]

This is not the Romans interacting with Slavs. This is the Slavs attacking the Romans. The Romans were unable to spread their culture (writing) to Slavs because they were never the subjugators against them like they were with the Germans, which is the point I was making. It is extremely unlikely that any Roman slave during antiquity was a Slav. Otherwise, they would have spread their culture and writing to the Slavs like they did to the Germans.

Exactly. However completely irrelevant as nobody claimed that. Neither anything implies these samples were slaves. Vinimacium was a military settlement and not a slave trading centre.
These were Barbarians in Roman service.

[Jana]

Have you been having mood swings recently?

No. I just can't stand idiots.

[Vega7]

double post

[Vega7]

How mental are you? It's one sample and massive outlier from near Hungarian border into deep Pannonia.
You understand idiot? I guess not.

Slavs did NOT migrate to far eastern Croatia in antiquity. However, Romans apparently recruited few Slavic warriors here and there, near the Limes. Neither did Sarmatians ever migrate to Croatia dumbass, but we have Sarmatian outlier sample from same region as well. Recruitment of brabarians as federati is not exactly a secret.



Slavs took Roman as Slavs. That's what I said and that is written in Roman sources about Balkan invasion centuries later.



Totally irrelevant.



Bias? Only brutal imbecile can come and trash a thread and claim extreme NE Europeans were Germans.
Get out of here idiot.

Yes, the Slavs took some Romans as slaves after they expanded into the Balkans much later. But it didn't happen the other way around. If it did, we would have seen them spread their culture and writing to the Slavs like they did with the Germans.

But, of course, you are attempting to explain all of this away by suggesting that they merely "apparently recruited [a] few Slavic warriors here and there."

lol. Yeah, this is definitely the most realistic theory. You are definitely "Einstein." ;)

Even if we consider these samples to be from recruited peoples and even if we assume that Germans could not resemble a modern Balt (which is unlikely given where they lived), it is far more likely this was a neighbouring 'Balt' recruited into the German migration rather than a Slav (who have no record of interacting with the Romans during that time at all) who was recruited into the Roman army in 150 AD.

You are trying to force a theory that you want to believe, but it just doesn't make any sense. Maybe after another 50k posts you will do a bit better.

[Alenka]

The Slavs didn't interact with the Romans at all, which is why they had no writing system until 800 AD.
:crazy:
Etymology of the word slave:
From Middle English sclave, from Old French sclave, from Medieval Latin sclāvus (“slave”), from Late Latin Sclāvus (“Slav”), because Slavs were often forced into slavery.

[Vega7]

:crazy:
Etymology of the word slave:
From Middle English sclave, from Old French sclave, from Medieval Latin sclāvus (“slave”), from Late Latin Sclāvus (“Slav”), because Slavs were often forced into slavery.

Middle English was spoken from the 1000s to 1400s. Medieval Latin was spoken from 600 AD to 1500 AD. We are talking about 150 AD, mate. The etymology of the word slave is much later than that.

"Middle English (abbreviated to ME[1]) was a form of the English language spoken after the Norman conquest (1066) until the late 15th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English

me·di·e·val Lat·in
/ˌmed(ē)ˈˌēvəl ˈlatn/
noun
noun: medieval Latin; noun: mediaeval Latin; plural noun: mediaeval Latins
Latin of about AD 600–1500.

[Alenka]

Middle English was spoken from the 1000s to 1400s. We are talking about 150 AD, mate.

"Middle English (abbreviated to ME[1]) was a form of the English language spoken after the Norman conquest (1066) until the late 15th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English
And when was Late Latin spoken? Read the whole sentence.

[Jana]

Yes, the Slavs took some Romans as slaves after they expanded into the Balkans much later. But it didn't happen the other way around. If it did, we would have seen them spread their culture and writing to the Slavs like they did with the Germans.

But, of course, you are attempting to explain all of this away by suggesting that they merely "apparently recruited [a] few Slavic warriors here and there."

lol. Yeah, this is definitely the most realistic theory. You are definitely "Einstein." ;)

Even if we consider these samples to be from recruited peoples and even if we assume that Germans could not resemble a modern Balt (which is unlikely), it is far more likely this was a 'Balt' recruited into the German migration rather than a Slav (who have no record of interacting with the Romans at all) who was recruited into the Roman army in 150 AD.

Ofc Germans can not resemble modern Balts unless they are Germanized Balts like east Prussians from Memelland who recently switched from Lithuanian to German.
We have same Baltic like samples from medieval southern Moravia and eastern Germany, from Slavic settled areas.

Again if you call Balto-Slavs Germans you are a terrible troll and should leave the thread.

[Vega7]

And when was Late Latin spoken? Read the whole sentence.

600 to 1500 AD. Slavs didn't really become Slaves until the early 800s, which was about when they were given their system of writing.

[Jana]

Ukrainians are not pure Slavs. Hehehe. I guess Slavs were not these potatoheads and it explains why early Slavic crania was...Nordic.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What else could they be? There were no Balts coming to Croatia and Serbia. Slavs already existed at that time. They can be either Balts or Slavs.

Them being Balts is extremely unlikely. Which means early Slavs and Balts were almost identical.

Just throwing it out there. What if those Imperial Roman samples were somehow related to the Amber Road?

[Alenka]

600 to 1500 AD. Slavs didn't really become Slaves until the early 800s, which was about when they were given their system of writing.
Nope, that's medieval Latin. Late Latin is 3rd to 6th centuries AD.
Which means the term Sclāvus (Slav) has first been attested in Latin written sources during that time going by the records that have been found.

But that doesn't mean there was no written mention of them even a bit earlier. It could be that the earlier written sources have not survived or simply haven't yet been found.

Or it could be that these genetic samples have been misdated by a century or two. That's also possible. They don't always get this stuff totally correct from the get go.

Let's see how this unfolds. We should keep an open mind IMO.

[Vega7]

Nope, that's medieval Latin. Late Latin is 3rd to 6th centuries AD.
Which means the term Sclāvus (Slav) has first been attested in Latin written sources during that time going by the the records that have been found.

But that doesn't mean there was no written mention of them even a bit earlier. It could be that the earlier written sources have not survived or simply haven't yet been found.

Or it could be that these genetic samples have been misdated by a century or two. That's also possible. They don't always get this stuff totally correct from the get go.

Let's see how this unfolds. We should keep an open mind IMO.

I guess you did specify late latin, but that lasted until 600 AD. And it would have been toward the very end of that.

The first mention of it is actually from Greek Sklavos coincidentally around 600 AD, which was after the Slavic expansion into the Balkans.

"The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävōs) "Slav," which appears around 580. "

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slave

Obviously the Greeks would have had a word for the people who just barged into the Balkans. But the Slavs didn't become subjugated until a couple centuries later, which is why they had no writing system until then.

Regardless, it was the Slavs who initiated contact with the Romans and Greeks during the middle ages. The Romans did not interact with the Slavs during antiquity.

[Jana]

Just throwing it out there. What if those Imperial Roman samples were somehow related to the Amber Road?

Really good idea! Yes, really interesting possibility.

[Jana]

Anyway, I'm over 50% Balto-Slavic using these samples:

Target: Feiichy
Distance: 1.7689% / 0.01768936

55.6 NE_Euro:SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146
13.6 HRV_Omišalj-Mirine:R2050___AD_468
13.4 HRV_Umag_Sipar:R2045___AD_577
6.0 HRV_Sipar:R3664___AD_751
4.8 HRV_Zadar_Poliklinika:R3746___AD_177
3.4 HRV_Trogir_Policija:R3670___AD_168
2.2 HRV_Velic:R3685___AD_500
1.0 Avar_Elite

my purely Croatian friend Slavic reduced by lot tho because he has less of Baltic like concentrate even if he has more Ukrainian like admix:

Target: Renato
Distance: 2.9506% / 0.02950579

39.6 NE_Euro:SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150
27.4 HRV_Sipar:R3663___AD_781
13.0 HRV_Osijek:R3655___AD_220
12.8 HRV_Omišalj-Mirine:R2051___AD_468
7.2 HRV_Zadar_Ulica:R3743___AD_146

what's interesting is that Ph2ter modeled by Slavic part as extremely northern (Latvia/Lithuania like) in one of these decomposing maps he makes.
I guess I preserved such admix to a degree and I am certainly 0% Balt.

[Alenka]

Your first post specified Medieval Latin.

The first mention of it is actually from Greek Sklavos around 600 AD, which was after the Slavic expansion into the Balkans.

"The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, "Slav, slave," first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävōs) "Slav," which appears around 580. "

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slave

Obviously the Greeks would have had a word for the people who just barged into the Balkans. But the Slavs didn't become subjugated until a couple centuries later, which is why they had no writing system until then.

Regardless, it was the Slavs who initiated contact with the Romans and Greeks during the middle ages. The Romans did not interact with the Slavs during antiquity.
Late Latin is also mentioned in my post.

And it doesn't really have to come from the Greek term, when Romans themselves were also in contact with the Slavs.

[Vega7]

Late Latin is also mentioned in my post.

And it doesn't really have to be from the Greek term, when Romans themselves were also in contact with the Slavs.

Late latin lasted until 600 AD, with Greek Sklavos originating 20 years before that soon after the Slavic expansion into the Balkans. I don't think it's hard to connect the dots.

[Alenka]

Late latin lasted until 600 AD, which Greek Sklavos originating 20 years before that soon after the Slavic expansion into the Balkans.
And Romans didn't notice the Slavic expansion into the Balkans?
:joker000:
Romans came into contact with the Slavs earlier than the Greeks did.
That's likely simply by their location.

[Jana]

my entirely South Slavic father registers almost 60% of this extreme Baltic drift with outstanding fit (and I am using real coords from Davidski ofc)

Target: Feiichy_Father
Distance: 1.5877% / 0.01587675

57.8 NE_Euro:SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146
25.6 HRV_Zadar_Poliklinika:R3747___AD_177
8.2 HRV_Zadar_Poliklinika:R3746___AD_177
3.2 HRV_Trogir_Policija:R3670___AD_168
2.8 HRV_Sipar:R3664___AD_751
2.0 Hun_Elite
0.4 HRV_Umag_Sipar:R2045___AD_577

[Vega7]

And Romans didn't notice the Slavic expansion into the Balkans?
:joker000:
Romans came into contact with the Slavs earlier than the Greeks did.

I am just stating the etymology of Slav. Yes, the Romans would have known about the Slavs marginally beforehand, but it was the Greek word that leant its name to the official ethnonym. There is never any record of the Romans interacting with Slavs during antiquity. This was something that occurred after the Slavic expansion in the middle ages.

It doesn't matter much, however. That other user just posted about the Amber Road, which is another realistic possibility that is much more plausible than some random Slavic mercenaries working for the Roman army during the 100s.

[Jana]

I am just stating the etymology of Slav. Yes, the Romans would have known about the Slavs marginally beforehand, but it was the Greek word that leant its name to the official ethnonym. There is never any record of the Romans interacting with Slavs during antiquity. This was something that occurred after the Slavic expansion in the middle ages.

It doesn't matter much, however. That other user just posted about the Amber Road, which is another realistic possibility that is much more plausible than some random Slavic mercenaries working for the Roman army during the 100s.

I wonder what the hell diluted your people so much.

[Jana]

my decomposition maps made months ago by Ph2ter. Note that my NE Euro admix resembles the most that of Latvians and Lithuanians (and NW Russians/Estonians near them)
It's same admix like in these samples and I am ofc 0% Baltic and this admix came with Slavs.

https://i.imgur.com/1Ly8pMC.png

[Jana]

Slavs = diluted Balts while Balts are OG gangstas. This also implies I2-dinaric haplo is not original Slavic because Balts lack it and Balts are forefathers of Slavs and not their siblings who came from same root.
It did mix in to Slavs somewhere north of Carpathians and it took part in Slavic expansion , but original marker must be R1a indeed.

explains some pseudo Lapp traits in south Slavs too. These Baltic like samples share some autosomal DNA with Finns too, the European non chink part (Finns are largerly Baltic anyway)

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Really good idea! Yes, really interesting possibility.

Croats are best modeled with a Polish-like, non-Baltic population. How do you explain this?

Eurogenes K36 models

Target: Croatian
Distance: 3.2311% / 3.23110774 | R4P
47.9 Polish_Wielkopolska
31.5 Italian_Tuscany
16.7 Ukrainian_Cossack
3.9 Tabasaran

Target: Croat_Gorski_Kotar
Distance: 2.3611% / 2.36113806 | R4P
57.8 Polish_Wielkopolska
19.1 Italian_Veneto
19.1 Swiss_Italian
4.0 Darginian

[Jana]

Croats are best modeled with a Polish-like, non-Baltic population. How do you explain this?

Eurogenes K36 models

Target: Croatian
Distance: 3.2311% / 3.23110774 | R4P
47.9 Polish_Wielkopolska
31.5 Italian_Tuscany
16.7 Ukrainian_Cossack
3.9 Tabasaran

Target: Croat_Gorski_Kotar
Distance: 2.3611% / 2.36113806 | R4P
57.8 Polish_Wielkopolska
19.1 Italian_Veneto
19.1 Swiss_Italian
4.0 Darginian

Slavs got mongrelized but some of us still keep admix. Btw, Gorski Kotar population is mix of Croats, Slovenes and Germans.

[Jana]

I got a fit down to 1.5 only by using samples from my region:

Target: Feiichy
Distance: 1.5917% / 0.01591735

54.4 NE_Euro:SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146
21.0 Illyrians:HRV_EIA:I23995
14.8 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462
5.6 HRV_Omišalj-Mirine:R2050___AD_468
3.8 HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15744
0.4 Avar_Elite

[Jana]

Osijek sample cluster with Krakauer Berg samples from medieval eastern Germany, as expected. Also with some Hungarian Iron Age outliers from northern Hungary that are Balto-Slavic like. etc.

[Vega7]

Slavs = diluted Balts while Balts are OG gangstas. This also implies I2-dinaric haplo is not original Slavic because Balts lack it and Balts are forefathers of Slavs and not their siblings who came from same root.
It did mix in to Slavs somewhere north of Carpathians and it took part in Slavic expansion , but original marker must be R1a indeed.

explains some pseudo Lapp traits in south Slavs too. These Baltic like samples share some autosomal DNA with Finns too, the European non chink part (Finns are largerly Baltic anyway)

No one cares about whether or not Balts were the so-called 'OGs' lol. No one debates about the history of the Balts because no one cares about them. They are rather irrelevant with regard to modern history and ethnic groups.

The split between Baltic and Slavic is hypothesized to have occurred around 1400 BC. A rather long time ago. In that time, the Balts inhabited the modern Baltic states, NE Poland, Belarus, and Central Russia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_prevalence_of_Baltic_hydronyms.png

The Slavs lived south of the pripet river in modern day western and central Ukraine with the boundaries being the western Ukrainian border to the west, the pripet river to the north, the dniepr river to the east, and the dniestr river and steppe to the south.

Naturally, with the Slavs being a more southern population, they were going to be more southern than Balts genetically.

People constantly mixed throughout history, but the Slavs who eventually formed were the ones who proliferated across most of Europe. The Balts had most of their territory taken by the more southern Slavs and started speaking Slavic themselves.

Having said that, your theories about Baltic OGs hold about as much weight as your fantasies of Slavic warriors in the Roman army during antiquity. lol.

[Jana]

No one cares about whether or not Balts were the so-called 'OGs' lol. No one debates about the history of the Balts because no one cares about them. They are rather irrelevant with regard to modern history and ethnic groups.

The split between Baltic and Slavic is hypothesized to have occurred around 1400 BC. A rather long time ago. In that time, the Balts inhabited the modern Baltic states, NE Poland, Belarus, and Central Russia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_prevalence_of_Baltic_hydronyms.png

The Slavs lived south of the pripet river in modern day western and central Ukraine with the boundaries being the western Ukrainian border to the west, the pripet river to the north, the dniepr river to the east, and the dniestr river and steppe to the south.

Naturally, with the Slavs being a more southern population, they were going to be more southern than Balts genetically.

People constantly mixed throughout history, but the Slavs who eventually formed were the ones who proliferated across most of Europe. The Balts had most of their territory taken by the more southern Slavs and started speaking Slavic themselves.

Having said that, your theories about Baltic OGs hold about as much weight as your fantasies of Slavic warriors in the Roman army during antiquity. lol.

Nobody cares about opinion of some dirty Ukrainian. Have Slavs resembled your folk, they'd be lame white Africans like Ukrainians are today. You aren't the source.

[Jana]

here are genetic profiles of two medieval southern Moravians (from Great Moravian Slavic settlement):

Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH28

0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04819271 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.04908976 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04959995 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04997611 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05415031 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl

Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH13

0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04172728 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04226147 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04236367 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04297778 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04772193 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04843990 Russian_Tver


NE_Euro:Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0 .078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.00429 5,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
NE_Euro:Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0 .081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.0106 35,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

Pohansko near Břeclav is among the well-researched Great Moravian strongholds on our territory and is situated 2.5 km from the town of Břeclav, in a riparian forest, and spread over 28 ha. The meaning of the name „Pohansko“ refers to „a place associated with paganism“.

The remains of a Great Moravian settlement have been found outside the central fortified area, both in the southern and northern suburbs and in the hinterland of the stronghold. Systematic excavations have been conducted there for more than 60 years by the Department of Archaeology and Museology, Masaryk University in Brno.

https://www.archeologickyatlas.cz/en/lokace/breclav_bv_pohansko

[Vega7]

Nobody cares about opinion of some dirty Ukrainian. Have Slavs resembled your folk, they'd be lame white Africans like Ukrainians are today. You aren't the source.

Ok well I think I understand where your bias is coming from now. You don't want to consider Ukraine to be the Slavic part of your ancestral homeland and so you are having an identity crisis. But your identity crisis has no bearing on history, which places Ukraine as the origin of the Slavs prior to the Slavic expansion.

Ukraine is not very north in terms of latitude and so it is unrealistic that the original Slavs were overly northern genetically. Your fantasies notwithstanding.

[Jana]

Ok well I think I understand where your bias is coming from now. You don't want to consider Ukraine to be the Slavic part of your ancestral homeland and so you are having an identity crisis. But your identity crisis has no bearing on history, which places Ukraine as the origin of the Slavs prior to the Slavic expansion.

Ukraine is not very north in terms of latitude and so it is unrealistic that the original Slavs were overly northern genetically. Your fantasies notwithstanding.

Dumbass, Slavs did spread from Ukraine but they were not like modern Ukrainians who became more diluted since than except very north of Ukraine.
that's why we have Great Moravian Slavs from further south of Ukraine who were still Baltic like genetically deep into medieval.

Deal with it.

[Jana]

we also have culturally Avar sample from Hungary which was Belarussian like. Belarussians are north of Ukrainians genetically (except northern Ukrainians) and close to Balts.

[Vega7]

Dumbass, Slavs did spread from Ukraine but they were not like modern Ukrainians who became more diluted since than except very north of Ukraine.
that's why we have Great Moravian Slavs from further south of Ukraine who were still Baltic like genetically deep into medieval.

Deal with it.

The Slavic expansion didn't just occur in one direction. They could have went north assimilating Balts (which they did) before they went southwest. You can cherry pick the most northern admixed examples, but there are naturally going to be other examples who are more southern admixed.

You thinking that the original Slavs in Ukraine had the same genetic profile as Balts from 700 km north in Vilnius says it all about the extent of your mental gymnastics.

[Jana]

The Slavic expansion didn't just occur in one direction. They could have went north assimilating Balts (which they did) before they went southwest. You can cherry pick the most northern admixed examples, but there are naturally going to be other examples who are more southern admixed.

You thinking that the original Slavs in Ukraine had the same genetic profile as Balts from 700 km north in Vilnius says it all about the extent of your mental gymnastics.

I'm waiting for Baltic like Kiev and Prague-Korchak cultures samples which are soon coming out (and word is out they are northern as hell) to rub it in your face. Cope.

[Vega7]

I'm waiting for Baltic like Kiev and Prague-Korchak samples which are soon coming out (and word is out they are northern as hell) to rub it in your face. Cope.

You can cherry pick whatever examples you want. They assimilated the Balts in Belarus and we will have to look at the samples in their totality. Not just the most northern admixed ones. Ukraine to Lithuania is the same distance as Ukraine to the southern periphery of Romania. Belgrade to Athens is only 500 km.

There is no such thing as traveling that far north-south at that latitude in Europe and not finding significant genetic disparity. Your theory here, again, is at odds with logic.

[Italicus]

To me this strongly implies early Slavs were Baltic-like genetically in their undiluted form. Ukrainians are not pure Slavs at all.
this fits with Baltic like genomes in medieval southern Moravia too.

And also, this implies theory that Baltic and Slavic did not separate at same time from common Balto-Slavic, but that Slavic is just an southern offshot of Baltic and Balts are our fathers so to say, not siblings.
they are the original form, Slavs are just their mutated offspring.

This is huge!!! And ofc it implies modern south Slavs and even Ukrainians or west Slavs for eg. are less Slavic than we tought.

This makes quite a bit of sense. The Slavic homeland appears to be the Pripyat Marshes in Polesie, directly south of Lithuania. But what is the admixture in "pure" Slavs (in the Pripyat region) that distinguishes them from Balts? Is it CHG or EEF of some form? I know they are more southern shifted than Balts, but to know what admixture pulls them south would be interesting.

[Jana]

You can cherry pick whatever examples you want. They assimilated the Balts in Belarus and we will have to look at the samples in their totality. Not just the most northern admixed ones. Ukraine to Lithuania is the same distance as Ukraine to the southern periphery of Romania. Belgrade to Athens is only 500 km.

There is no such thing as traveling that far north-south at that latitude in Europe and not finding significant genetic disparity. Your theory here, again, is at odds with logic.

how thick are you? I'm talking about earliest Slavic archeological cultures. If core samples from there come out Baltic like theory that early Slavs were Ukrainian like will de dead in the water.
so you better hope they won't be, otherwise you lost the debate.

Belarussians having Baltic admixture is irrelevant because Balts are genetically nearly same as early Slavs and that makes them purer than Ukrainians who isntead absorbed some weird southern admixtures, excluding those from the very north.

[Vega7]

This makes quite a bit of sense. The Slavic homeland appears to be the Pripyat Marshes in Polesie, directly south of Lithuania. But what is the admixture in Slavs that distinguishes them from Balts? Is it CHG or EEF of some form?

All this shows that the Proto-Slavic area of that time (south of the Pripyat River) was much smaller than the Proto-Baltic area. Proto-Slavic began to develop as a separate linguistic entity in the 2nd millennium BCE and was to remain quite unified for a long time to come.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baltic-languages

The red dots in the 'proto-slavic' region show the oldest slavic hydronyms along the Pripyat, Dniestr, and Dniepr Rivers. Constrast with the Baltic hydronyms in the 2nd image.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0f0947afeb49c4ee7da78dd17643427c-pjlq

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_prevalence_of_Baltic_hydronyms.png

[Jana]

This makes quite a bit of sense. The Slavic homeland appears to be the Pripyat Marshes in Polesie, directly south of Lithuania. But what is the admixture in "pure" Slavs (in the Pripyat region) that distinguishes them from Balts? Is it CHG or EEF of some form?

nothing really....I guess admixture that I2-haplogroup carriers brough with themseleves could be that (something Celtic like)
this also kinda shows I2 autosomally did not contribute to proto Slavs.

[Italicus]

nothing really....I guess admixture that I2-haplogroup carriers brough with themseleves could be that (something Celtic like)
this also kinda shows I2 autosomally did not contribute to proto Slavs.

What do you mean "nothing really"? (I'm not trying to be facetious or sarcastic, just genuinely curious.)

[Varda]

idk if samples are carbon-dated but we have some extreme NE European genetic profiles from eastern Croatia and northern Serbia.
which ethnic groups they belonged too? They are extremely northern.

could these be proto Slavs? Or? Hard to imagine any Balts migrated down there, but...they cluster like modern Balts and Baltic-like Russians


Distance to: HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280
0.02842084 Russian_Pskov
0.03132949 Lithuanian_VA
0.03203686 Russian_Tver
0.03301761 Lithuanian_PA
0.03384526 Estonian
0.03430717 Lithuanian_RA
0.03539247 Russian_Kursk
0.03581244 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03630268 Russian_Ryazan
0.03634937 Lithuanian_SZ


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150
0.03157195 Latvian
0.03182402 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03627177 Lithuanian_RA
0.03687694 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04131605 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04255829 Lithuanian_VA
0.04363796 Estonian
0.04517937 Russian_Pskov
0.04666200 Lithuanian_PA
0.05328828 Belarusian


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146
0.03203751 Lithuanian_VA
0.03423692 Lithuanian_PA
0.03571393 Lithuanian_RA
0.03604847 Russian_Pskov
0.03857698 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03931255 Estonian
0.04093936 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04111409 Russian_Kaluga
0.04130789 Latvian
0.04154476 Russian_Tver

their coords here:

HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280,0.126344,0.11577,0.07844 1,0.077197,0.036314,0.031794,0.00846,0.018922,-0.006545,-0.034625,0.000162,-0.013788,0.015015,0.015276,-0.007057,0.013922,0.021253,-0.005701,0.001508,0.009004,-0.004991,-0.004822,0.000739,-0.005904,0.004191
SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150,0.124067,0.119832,0. 09164,0.101422,0.047701,0.038208,0.01034,0.017768, 0.001023,-0.039363,-0.004547,-0.019033,0.038057,0.03592,-0.019137,0.003447,0.014994,-0.007095,-0.00088,0.003126,-0.007736,-0.005935,0.003328,-0.007109,-0.002634
SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146,0.136588,0.126941,0. 090132,0.072675,0.044624,0.030678,0.005405,0.01499 9,-0.005931,-0.025695,-0.004709,-0.008992,0.016055,0.014175,-0.013572,0.014717,0.026598,-0.004814,-0.001383,0.007379,0.00025,-0.008779,0.002095,-0.005784,-0.000958

Theory about Panonnia as homeland of proto Slavs exist long time ago, very serious theory.

Slavs were most likely present in the Panonnia and Balkans few centuries before migration in 6-7th century. There was probably several smaller migrations in previous centuries. Daniele Farlati claimed that Slavs were present in Dalmatia and Illyricum at least since 4th century if not earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_Farlati

[Jana]

What do you mean "nothing really"? (I'm not trying to be facetious or sarcastic, just genuinely curious.)

I mean these genomes look like modern Balts. But maybe Balts back than were even more northern than now. It's known Lithuanians for eg. have Slavic admixture.

[Jana]

Theory about Panonnia as homeland of proto Slavs exist long time ago, very serious theory.

Slavs were most likely present in the Panonnia and Balkans few centuries before migration in 6-7th century. There was probably several smaller migrations in previous centuries. Daniele Farlati claimed that Slavs were present in Dalmatia and Illyricum at least since 4th century if not earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_Farlati

:O

[Italicus]

I mean these genomes look like modern Balts. But maybe Balts back than were even more northern than now. It's known Lithuanians for eg. have Slavic admixture.

Interesting, I thought they were the purest of Balts, even more so than Latvians.

[Vega7]

how thick are you? I'm talking about earliest Slavic archeological cultures. If core samples from there come out Baltic like theory that early Slavs were Ukrainian like will de dead in the water.
so you better hope they won't be, otherwise you lost the debate.

Belarussians having Baltic admixture is irrelevant because Balts are genetically nearly same as early Slavs and that makes them purer than Ukrainians who isntead absorbed some weird southern admixtures, excluding those from the very north.

I know what those cultures are. My contention is that you can't merely cherry pick the most northern admixed ones and that we will have to take the results in their totality. Single or a few cases of high Baltic admixture won't mean much.

[Jana]

I know what those cultures are. My contention is that you can't merely cherry pick the most northern admixed ones and we will have to take the samples in their totality. Single cases of high baltic admixture won't mean anything due to assimilations that occurred.

Learn to read. I said core samples which means majority, outliers excluded.

[Jana]

Interesting, I thought they were the purest of Balts, even more so than Latvians.

Latvians have some Finnic (Livonian) input in very north tho. Lithuanians have some Slavic from Grand Duchy of Lithuania/PLC times, I guess mostly Polish/Ruthenian rather than recent Russian.

[Vega7]

Learn to read. I said core samples which means majority, outliers excluded.

You said that in your response to my post. I was clarifying the position from my original post that you responded to. You really are... dumb. lol.

[Dick]

nothing really....I guess admixture that I2-haplogroup carriers brough with themseleves could be that (something Celtic like)
this also kinda shows I2 autosomally did not contribute to proto Slavs.

The I2 could be from GAC people already living in Eastern Europe during the time of hindu-european invasion but yeah the I2 originally migrated from western europe obviously


https://www.yfull.com/tree/i2/

[vbnetkhio]

Both Balts and Slavs would have to travel a huge distance trough non-balto-slavic territories to join the Roman army. I don't see why these have to be Slavs in particular. They could also be a third related people which are neither Balts nor Slavs, like the Neuri and Budini mentioned in Greek sources.

This is definitely not an early phase of the Slavic expansion, if you are thinking about that. These fall into some weird subclades which are today very rare among any group of Slavs or Balts, and nonexistent in the Balkans. Which is why these are most likely option 3.

Also, we have a big amount of Avar-era samples from Southeast Hungary, they are autosomally local and have no Balto-Slavic Y-dna. Which also proves this wasn't a Slavic mass migration into Pannonia, but these were just a couple of mercenaries.

[vbnetkhio]

To me this strongly implies early Slavs were Baltic-like genetically in their undiluted form. Ukrainians are not pure Slavs at all.
this fits with Baltic like genomes in medieval southern Moravia too.

And also, this implies theory that Baltic and Slavic did not separate at same time from common Balto-Slavic, but that Slavic is just an southern offshot of Baltic and Balts are our fathers so to say, not siblings.
they are the original form, Slavs are just their mutated offspring.

This is huge!!! And ofc it implies modern south Slavs and even Ukrainians or west Slavs for eg. are less Slavic than we tought.

In 100 AD, Slavs probably were like modern Lithuanians, but the actual Balts of this period were even more "northern", unlike anything today

What you say about Slavs still stands, but things get more complicated for Balts. They also got a huge "southern" admixture at some point, and how they got N1c is also still pretty misterious.


If Slavs were Baltic like, than majority of south Slavs is less than half Slavic and some like Macedonians have very modest Slavic input. This would fit better with historical/archeological expectations tbh.

proto-Slavs in their homeland continued to change until their expansion in 400 AD, at that moment I believe they were on average like the AV2 sample. This is what should be counted as Slavic admixture, because the ancestors of all Slavic groups were like this at one point. If they lacked I2-din, then more so, because that's also something shared by all Slavic groups. it doesn't make sense to decrease everobdy's Slavicness by using these samples.

[Jana]

Both Balts and Slavs would have to travel a huge distance trough non-balto-slavic territories to join the Roman army. I don't see why these have to be Slavs in particular. They could also be a third related people which are neither Balts nor Slavs, like the Neuri and Budini mentioned in Greek sources.

Never heard for them...
Have some info?

This is definitely not an early phase of the Slavic expansion, if you are thinking about that.

Nah, that's clear for the start. But I don't see why they couldn't be Slavs. They fit with Pohansko and Krakauer Berg samples, also probably with Sicilians mentioned before.
I mean, Slavic homeland was closer to Pannonia than anything furthern north, it was just behind the Carpathians.


Also, we have a big amount of Avar-era samples from Southeast Hungary, they are autosomally local and have no Balto-Slavic Y-dna. Which also proves this wasn't a Slavic mass migration into Pannonia, but these were just a couple of mercenaries.

Yes, obviously.

[rothaer]

Both Balts and Slavs would have to travel a huge distance trough non-balto-slavic territories to join the Roman army. I don't see why these have to be Slavs in particular. They could also be a third related people which are neither Balts nor Slavs, like the Neuri and Budini mentioned in Greek sources. (...)

Fully agreed.


proto-Slavs in their homeland continued to change until their expansion in 400 AD, at that moment I believe they were on average like the AV2 sample. This is what should be counted as Slavic admixture (...)

Also here I do agree and I consider the search for any Himera time (480 BCE) proto Slavs generally erronous. As for the proto Slavs' genetic average I until recently shared your opinion, but I've changed it a bit in a "Baltic" direction. Both some Pohansko and some Krakauer Berg samples are Baltic-shifted if you take Av2 as a reference. That ought to have been their original conditions as they could not become Baltic-shifted when expanding westwards and southwestwards. But, in cotrast, they could have collected smaller contributions that "de-Balticised" them a little bit.

Admittedly this are now just details, but this is my current assumption. Besides this they could also simply have been somewhat heterogenous, of course.

[Jana]

Fully agreed.



Also here I do agree and I consider the search for any Himera time (480 BCE) proto Slavs generally erronous. As for the proto Slavs' genetic average I until recently shared your opinion, but I've changed it a bit in a "Baltic" direction. Both some Pohansko and some Krakauer Berg samples are Baltic-shifted if you take Av2 as a reference. That ought to have been their original conditions as they could not become Baltic-shifted when expanding westwards and southwestwards. But, in cotrast, they could have collected smaller contributions that "de-Balticesed" them a little bit. Admittedly this are now just details, but this is my current assumption. Besides this they could also simply have been somewhat heterogenous, of course.

Agreed. I don't think early Slavs were autosomally heterogenous btw. Maybe they were, but I find it more likely they weren't. I also agree case of Germany and Moravia implies base was very Baltic like. Especially since these samples are from late, not early medieval. They could have been only even more northern before, at least according to some expected common sense.

[Jana]

Fully agreed.



Also here I do agree and I consider the search for any Himera time (480 BCE) proto Slavs generally erronous. As for the proto Slavs' genetic average I until recently shared your opinion, but I've changed it a bit in a "Baltic" direction. Both some Pohansko and some Krakauer Berg samples are Baltic-shifted if you take Av2 as a reference. That ought to have been their original conditions as they could not become Baltic-shifted when expanding westwards and southwestwards. But, in cotrast, they could have collected smaller contributions that "de-Balticesed" them a little bit. Admittedly this are now just details, but this is my current assumption. Besides this they could also simply have been somewhat heterogenous, of course.

Agreed. I don't think early Slavs were autosomally heterogenous btw. Maybe they were, but I find it more likely they weren't. I also agree case of Germany and Moravia implies base was very Baltic like. Especially since these samples are from late, not early medieval. They could have been only even more northern before, at least according to some expected common sense.

[Jana]

In 100 AD, Slavs probably were like modern Lithuanians, but the actual Balts of this period were even more "northern", unlike anything today

What you say about Slavs still stands, but things get more complicated for Balts. They also got a huge "southern" admixture at some point, and how they got N1c is also still pretty misterious.



proto-Slavs in their homeland continued to change until their expansion in 400 AD, at that moment I believe they were on average like the AV2 sample. This is what should be counted as Slavic admixture, because the ancestors of all Slavic groups were like this at one point. If they lacked I2-din, then more so, because that's also something shared by all Slavic groups. it doesn't make sense to decrease everobdy's Slavicness by using these samples.

Agree for Balts, I also think they were more northern before.
Btw Av 2 is still north of UA cluster last time I checked

[rothaer]

In 100 AD, Slavs probably were like modern Lithuanians, but the actual Balts of this period were even more "northern", unlike anything today.

True and btw.

SRB_Viminacium_R6759___AD_150,0.124067,0.119832,0. 09164,0.101422,0.047701,0.038208,0.01034,0.017768, 0.001023,-0.039363,-0.004547,-0.019033,0.038057,0.03592,-0.019137,0.003447,0.014994,-0.007095,-0.00088,0.003126,-0.007736,-0.005935,0.003328,-0.007109,-0.002634

actually is in that part of the "North Europe" PCA where no moderns, but BA Latvians and Estonians do plot.

[Vega7]

Agreed. I don't think early Slavs were autosomally heterogenous btw. Maybe they were, but I find it more likely they weren't. I also agree case of Germany and Moravia implies base was very Baltic like. Especially since these samples are from late, not early medieval. They could have been only even more northern before, at least according to some expected common sense.

Considering that, for example, the word for God in Slavic (Bog) is of Iranic origin, I find it unlikely that the early Slavs in Ukraine didn't interact with and mix with the Sarmatians and other steppe people, which would open the possibility for the early Slavs being genetically mixed.

The southern boundary of the early Slavs was right on the edge of the steppe and also right on the edge of the Carpathians, with Thracians, etc. immediately south in present day Moldova/Moldavia. Some degree of mixing was inevitable. The Kiev culture in particular was maybe less mixed.

There wasn't much of a southern geographic boundary between Slavs and non Slavs. There was merely the transition from forest to Steppe.

[Dick]

Both Balts and Slavs would have to travel a huge distance trough non-balto-slavic territories to join the Roman army. I don't see why these have to be Slavs in particular. They could also be a third related people which are neither Balts nor Slavs, like the Neuri and Budini mentioned in Greek sources.

What if they were Dacians or Pre-Dacians.

"Southern Baltoidic" :icon_lol:

https://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm

Also, what about that "Illyrian" sample with low Snps that disappeared from gedmatch. Wasn't it Baltic-like?

[Karol Klačansky]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

[vbnetkhio]

True and btw.

SRB_Viminacium_R6759___AD_150,0.124067,0.119832,0. 09164,0.101422,0.047701,0.038208,0.01034,0.017768, 0.001023,-0.039363,-0.004547,-0.019033,0.038057,0.03592,-0.019137,0.003447,0.014994,-0.007095,-0.00088,0.003126,-0.007736,-0.005935,0.003328,-0.007109,-0.002634

actually is in that part of the "North Europe" PCA where no moderns, but BA Latvians and Estonians do plot.

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians

[vbnetkhio]

Never heard for them...

Nah, that's clear for the start. But I don't see why they couldn't be Slavs. They fit with Pohansko and Krakauer Berg samples, also probably with Sicilians mentioned before.
I mean, Slavic homeland was closer to Pannonia than anything furthern north, it was just behind the Carpathians.



Yes, obviously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

[Vega7]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

This is actually a really good point. Balts were far more widespread and numerous than Slavs or proto-Slavs around 150 AD. Slavs covered a small area and were small in number. So that makes it even more likely that they were Balts.

[Jana]

if what you are saying is true about early slavs (Them being balts genetically) then it leaves me with some questions.

1) Why do proto-slavic samples from east germany cluster with modern day slavs from pripyat area and are more modern slavic like than baltic?
2) Why are southern slavs dominated by a western ukrainian ydna haplogroup?
3) Why do the majority of modern Russians cluster west of balts though geographically they are farther to the east of them?

From my understand baltic tribes were far more wide spread during antiquity covering large areas of Poland etc. They may have very well been just pure balts who spoke a baltic language while slavs were still growing as a population in Pripyat area.

Bulk of (not all but many) Krakauer Berg samples are rather northern and Baltic shifted. Belarusian-Lithuanian cline irrc. I'm also pretty sure early medieval western Ukraine was not genetically like modern western Ukrainians excluding Volynia.

Btw, here are results of two Great Moravian Slavs from late medieval.

Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH28
0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04819271 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.04908976 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04959995 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04997611 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05415031 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl


Distance to: NE_Euro:Moravia_POH13
0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04172728 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04226147 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04236367 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04297778 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04772193 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04843990 Russian_Tver

closer to Latvians than Ukrainians. Pohansko is way south than Slavic homeland so if Slavs living there retained such genetic profile original Slavs must have been huelva northern to begin with.

[Jana]

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians

yeah, that sample is odd. Other one is way better candidate for a Slav. I wouldn't be modeling with more than 50% of it if it wasn't. do you know it's hg?
are there hgs released for all antique balkan samples from that paper?

[rothaer]

and this is his haplo:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP578/ it's not too rare, but it's mostly limited to Russia, not pan-Slavic.

I don't think this is a Slav. He is probably an early Galindian or from a related tribe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians

I once heard there is noted the existence of the first name Galindo among Visigoths in Spain, which may indicate that the Goths had some contacts to Galindians in the past or even pulled some with them in the migration period. As for SRB_Viminacium_R6759___AD_150 to me the amber road seems a plausible candidate for the movement of such folks in minor numbers.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw, here are results of two Great Moravian Slavs from late medieval.

If memory serves me correctly these are very low coverage samples.

[Jana]

If memory serves me correctly these are very low coverage samples.

do you think that impacted their plotting? Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

do you think that impacted their plotting? Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

For now I think it is Av2 from Szolad, but it could also be these guys.


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Croatian
B: Croatia_IA
C: ↴
-0.06072507 Russian_Orel
-0.06065460 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
-0.06064324 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
-0.06057441 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
-0.06043431 Ukrainian_Sumy
-0.06042764 Ukrainian_Lviv
-0.06042565 Ukrainian_Dnipro
-0.06035566 Russian_Smolensk
-0.06013559 Belarusian:Belarusian4
-0.06011699 Russian_Belgorod
-0.06009844 Russian_Voronez
-0.06002743 Russian_Kursk
-0.05999704 Ukrainian_Dnipro:EG600068
-0.05996894 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-21
-0.05995829 Ukrainian_Chernihiv:EG600055
-0.05994717 Russian_Ryazan:Rrzm-10
-0.05992752 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600028
-0.05990857 Belarusian
-0.05990503 Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol303
-0.05987697 HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18226
-0.05983700 Belarusian:Belarusian10
-0.05982004 Russian_Orel:russianOrjol56
-0.05980897 Ukrainian_Rivne
-0.05976066 Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol349
-0.05974448 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-514
-0.05973742 Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600079

When we compare Poles and Belarusians to Late Antiquity Lithuanians we see a shift toward Italy and the Balkans, but will this really have been the case?


Lithuania_Late_Antiquity,0.1340838,0.1267382,0.096 5428,0.0989674,0.0510864,0.0401046,0.0141008,0.017 0762,-0.0009,-0.0430078,-0.0057158,-0.0168452,0.030862,0.0370204,-0.0109932,0.0001856,0.0012778,-0.001191,0.0027402,0.0060528,-0.0038182,-0.0046494,0.0086518,-0.0164598,-0.000934


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Polish
B: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity
C: ↴
-0.06675190 Hungarian
-0.06666704 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza
-0.06651156 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
-0.06645650 Italian_Northeast:ALP093
-0.06626712 Croatian
-0.06617553 Italian_Tuscany:NA20506
-0.06614042 Italian_Northeast
-0.06613375 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
-0.06612784 Italian_Marche:MarABU050D
-0.06612766 Austrian
-0.06611893 Italian_Emilia
-0.06610538 SVK_Tes_Mlynany
-0.06608653 Swiss_Italian
-0.06604748 ITA_Palazzo_della_Cancelleria
-0.06604031 Italian_Piedmont
-0.06602974 French_Provence:S_34
-0.06601638 Italian_Umbria:PG12
-0.06596166 Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
-0.06594342 Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian3
-0.06593217 HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181025
-0.06591343 Italian_Lombardy:ALP134
-0.06588448 MNE_LBA
-0.06588131 Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany93
-0.06588088 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
-0.06588088 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia:I16759
-0.06587144 HRV_BA:I18748
-0.06587114 Italian_Tuscany:PG2012_647
-0.06585777 SVN_Emona
-0.06583719 Italian_Tuscany
-0.06583212 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43
-0.06582789 French_Provence:S_5
-0.06582741 Italian_Emilia:ALP67
-0.06580861 HUN_middle_Avar:SZK83
-0.06579966 HRV_Cetina_BA
-0.06579743 Italian_Northeast:ALP235
-0.06577954 SRB_IA
-0.06577954 SRB_IA:I16814
-0.06575744 AUT_Klosterneuburg:R10654
-0.06575485 Italian_Emilia:ALP342


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Belarusian
B: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity
C: ↴
-0.04865471 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia
-0.04865471 HUN_Avar_Late_South_Transdanubia:I16759
-0.04838450 Montenegrin:Montenegro5
-0.04837364 Moldovan:44618757481C02
-0.04830742 Scythian_MDA:scy305
-0.04828708 Ukrainian_Sumy
-0.04823771 Ukrainian_Lviv
-0.04814133 Moldovan
-0.04810245 Scythian_MDA
-0.04809766 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
-0.04809766 ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
-0.04805914 HUN_late_Avar:SZKT70
-0.04799671 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600004
-0.04798936 HUN_middle_Avar:KPM23
-0.04797671 Italian_Tuscany:PG2012_647
-0.04797361 HUN_late_Avar:SZK130
-0.04796876 Bulgarian:BulgarianF2
-0.04789848 HRV_Gardun
-0.04787054 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
-0.04787054 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
-0.04786944 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
-0.04785975 Moldovan:44618758492C02
-0.04785966 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
-0.04785378 HUN_early_Avar:MS45
-0.04782698 Albanian:AL82
-0.04782497 Romanian:G429
-0.04780853 HUN_Avar_Period
-0.04780853 HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1
-0.04778474 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia3
-0.04777846 HUN_middle_Avar:SZM255
-0.04777743 Romanian
-0.04776977 Moldovan:44618757582C01
-0.04776797 Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2
-0.04776669 Serbian:729
-0.04772494 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
-0.04772200 Hungarian:HungarianD1
-0.04771872 Moldovan:44618758061C01
-0.04771526 ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR010
-0.04770091 HUN_early_Avar:MS43
-0.04768565 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600035
-0.04767835 Italian_Tuscany:NA20506
-0.04767244 HUN_Avar_Late_Visonta
-0.04766858 HUN_middle_Avar:SZM259
-0.04766269 GRC_Logkas_MBA
-0.04765982 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia4

[vbnetkhio]

yeah, that sample is odd. Other one is way better candidate for a Slav. I wouldn't be modeling with more than 50% of it if it wasn't. do you know it's hg?
are there hgs released for all antique balkan samples from that paper?

the other one is:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y88926/

you should search in this thread. I believe most of the Y-DNA results from this study were posted here.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26174-Stable-population-structure-in-Europe-since-the-Iron-Age-despite-high-mobility

[vbnetkhio]

do you think that impacted their plotting?

They do act weird in G25. I think there is some impact.
But there's another Baltic-like early Slavic sample, which is of higher quality:


HUN_early_Avar:CSB9,0.130897,0.126941,0.089,0.0852 72,0.032929,0.036814,0.0094,0.017768,-0.006136,-0.043554,0.00406,-0.016635,0.023191,0.034406,-0.014522,-0.010077,-0.011865,-0.0019,0.001885,0.000125,-0.009858,-0.00779,0.024896,-0.01446,0.005868


Btw, which samples you suggest to use for unmixed Slavs?


POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606 ,0.066215,0.051702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.00 3886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005 812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.0 63954,0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613 ,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389


Sandomierz is from SE Poland, right next door to the Slavic homeland, and doesn't look shifted towards East Germanics at all.
AV2 is a very early Slavic arrival into Pannonia, and she doesn't look mixed with anything local.

The Krakauer Berg samples are also similar to these 2, and they don't look mixed with north Germans either. Rather with something south Euro. I think Krakauer Berg are the best proxy out of these, because they are also high quality.

I think these were the average early Slavs, and those Lithuanian-like were outliers.

South Slavs also picked up some 10-20% additional southern admixture while passing trough Hungary and Romania, and were Ukrainian to Rusyn-like.
It can be seen in AV1, the Byzantine outiler, and those misdated samples from Montenegro and Bosnia from the recent study.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

South Slavs also picked up some 10-20% additional southern admixture while passing trough Hungary and Romania, and were Ukrainian to Rusyn-like.
It can be seen in AV1, the Byzantine outiler, and those misdated samples from Montenegro and Bosnia from the recent study.

Also in this Asia Minor Slav, dated around 732 AD.


Distance to: TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3:I10430
0.02694257 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02920056 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03162636 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03213918 Croatian
0.03217329 Slovakian
0.03259195 Polish
0.03406272 Hungarian
0.03488955 Russian_Belgorod
0.03510534 Slovenian
0.03537841 Czech
0.03576314 Moldovan_o
0.03600573 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03642751 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03715409 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03765813 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03835016 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03905775 Bosnian

[smd555]

with K13 converted averages


Distance to: HRV_Osijek:R3657___AD_280

0.03786215 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.03884571 Russian_Ryazan
0.03914726 Russian_Pskov
0.04134088 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04174980 Russian_Southwest
0.04221890 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04372826 Russian_Smolensk
0.04429368 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04461209 Estonian
0.04475842 Lithuanian_Žemaitija


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759___AD_150

0.05137090 Latvian
0.05406409 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.05639789 Russian_Pskov
0.05692230 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.06086413 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.06110466 Estonian
0.06326707 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
0.06407308 Belarusian_Minsk
0.06768661 Russian_Smolensk
0.06866155 Russian_Ryazan

Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673___AD_146

0.04055798 Russian_Pskov
0.04095903 Belarusian_Minsk
0.04118757 Lithuanian_Aukštaitija
0.04185239 German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.04246390 German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.04303851 Russian_Smolensk
0.04341625 Lithuanian_Žemaitija
0.04379295 Polish_Kujavia
0.04414358 Polish_Mazovia
0.04415367 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl

Do you have K13 coordinates of those samples? And also K13 of the Baltic-shifted samples from Himera and Moravia_POH28 and POH13?

[Lucas]

They do act weird in G25. I think there is some impact.




POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606 ,0.066215,0.051702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.00 3886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005 812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.0 63954,0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613 ,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389


Sandomierz is from SE Poland, right next door to the Slavic homeland, and doesn't look shifted towards East Germanics at all.
AV2 is a very early Slavic arrival into Pannonia, and she doesn't look mixed with anything local.

The Krakauer Berg samples are also similar to these 2, and they don't look mixed with north Germans either. Rather with something south Euro. I think Krakauer Berg are the best proxy out of these, because they are also high quality.

I think these were the average early Slavs, and those Lithuanian-like were outliers.


But Sandomierz is also very Lithuanian.

Target: POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
Distance: 2.7552% / 0.02755228
64.8 Lithuanian_VZ
14.2 Basque_French
10.0 Finnish_Southwest
9.8 Lithuanian_PZ
1.2 Mbuti

[smd555]

But Sandomierz is also very Lithuanian.

Target: POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
Distance: 2.7552% / 0.02755228
64.8 Lithuanian_VZ
14.2 Basque_French
10.0 Finnish_Southwest
9.8 Lithuanian_PZ
1.2 Mbuti

I must say that in fact there are some northern-shifted samples of modern Ukrainians. For example:


ukr1,33.57,46.2,5.41,5.07,3.84,1.62,0.42,0.63,2.79 ,0,0,0.45,0 - from Cherkaska oblast


ukr2,31.97,46.47,7.08,4.1,5.51,0,1.64,0,0,1,2.2,0, 0 - from Zhytomyrska/Dnipropetrovska oblast.


ukr3,32.61,51.63,7.66,3.55,0,0.61,1.12,0,0.54,1.89 ,0.39,0,0 - I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine


ukr4,32.19,46.21,4.23,6.14,4.14,1.04,0,0.28,2.53,1 .37,1.26,0.61,0 -also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine


ukr5,33.14,47.52,7.04,4.27,3.87,1.37,0,1.34,0,0.37 ,0.14,0.94,0 - also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, the surname is typical for different regions of Ukraine.
And some others.

ukr3 is even more northern-shifted, than the samples of Krakuer Berg KRA011 and KRA007:


ukr3,32.61,51.63,7.66,3.55,0,0.61,1.12,0,0.54,1.89 ,0.39,0,0


KRA001,25.96,48.00,13.69,6.89,0,0,2.36,0.65,0.29,0 .90,0.97,0.29,0
KRA002,32.83,40.49,8.72,4.20,8.75,0.08,1.21,0,1.04 ,0.92,0.65,1.10,0
KRA003,37.41,43.66,9.37,1.83,2.01,0.45,0,0,1.08,1. 26,1.87,1.06,0
KRA004,33.97,49.45,10.27,0,0.33,1.90,0.77,0,1.06,0 .49,0.56,0.23,0.96
KRA005,29.61,46.01,11.93,6.25,1.70,0,0,0,0.82,0,2. 08,0,1.60
KRA006,25.65,44.48,12.02,5.98,5.26,1.24,3.24,0,1.0 1,0.52,0.34,0,0.26
KRA007,30.91,51.79,7.03,5.17,0,2.47,0.41,0,0,0.58, 0.86,0.77,0
KRA008,27.67,45.53,14.54,3.66,4.95,0.65,0,0.34,0,2 .39,0,0.27,0
KRA009,24.47,43.30,13.21,4.64,4.90,2.77,1.96,0,0,1 .29,2.18,1.04,0.24
KRA010,28.23,45.68,9.85,4.59,4.85,0.16,2.48,0.99,0 .16,1.23,0.51,0,1.28
KRA011,29.81,50.81,9.38,1.82,1.42,1.44,1.66,0,0,1. 05,1.22,1.39,0

Of cause I can compare only by K13, K15 and K36 because those Ukrainian samples are from Gedmatch. Thats why I also need K13 of the ancient samples from Pannonia, Moravia, and Himera.

[Jana]

I must say that in fact there are some northern-shifted samples of modern Ukrainians. For example:

- from Cherkaska oblast

- from Zhytomyrska/Dnipropetrovska oblast.

- I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

-also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, but the surname is most typical for northwestern Ukraine

- also I did not manage to contact the owner of the kit, the surname is typical for different regions of Ukraine.
And some others.

ukr3 is even more northern-shifted, than the samples of Krakuer Berg KRA011 and KRA007:





Of cause I can compare only by K13, K15 and K36 because those Ukrainian samples are from Gedmatch. Thats why I also need K13 of the ancient samples from Pannonia, Moravia, and Himera.

You can easily convert these samples from K36 to G25 form.

[smd555]

You can easily convert these samples from K36 to G25 form.

You mean this?: https://allelocator.ovh/K36horizontal.html

For ukr3:


ukr3,0.13305583255700018,0.12288408827799999,0.080 7878034046,0.07378027535700005,0.04267555165440001 ,0.02777068180192,0.00941342747100001,0.0141761157 5800003,0.00006932736600001209,-0.024693815450000073,-0.0030040245507799994,-0.009802925314000024,0.016296585008999984,0.026961 628270000447,-0.005902064174000134,0.00015411603699996357,-0.000687744808000055,-0.001056468664000133,0.0033529849429999856,0.00381 1599843,-0.0014478302080003572,-0.006626884425999962,0.007611980531999988,-0.005234707582999968,0.002855927529999913

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/10/f84b87b5514368d3ed316bda290531bd.png (https://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=f84b87b5514368d3ed316bda290531bd)