Where the hell did E-V13 come from?

[Power77]

Do any of you guys have any clues where E-V13 came from? For instance, from which ancient tribe(s) do you think this lineage first originated? It doesn't seem closely linked to Thracians and Illyrians at all (as those were most likely either R1b-Z2103 or J2b2--L283 according to ancient DNA studies which dealt with Iron and Bronze Age remains). Moreover, it also seems loosely tied to Ancient Greeks (it only showed up in 2 samples from a Late Greek Iron Age site in Sicily but didn't show up in any earlier samples from the Mycenaean and Minoan periods so far). Its present-day high frequencies in the Balkans (especially among Kosovar Albanians) appear to have been caused by a relatively recent founder effect. Truth be told, it does look like its presence on the European continent may not be as old as we think it is.

I know this is an extremely touchy subject for many people on this forum, but I'd still like to hear you guys' opinions on the matter.

[Jingle Bell]

Prob EEF IMO, since this happen in all Europe in varied frequencys

[Gallop]

I read somewhere that E-V22 is much older than E-V13.

[Power77]

Prob EEF IMO, since this happen in all Europe in varied frequencys

E-V13 didn't show up in any Neolithic samples so far either. Those were overwhelmingly G2a.

[Power77]

I read somewhere that E-V22 is much older than E-V13.

Much older in Europe? I doubt that tbh.

[Jingle Bell]

E-V13 didn't show up in any Neolithic samples so far either. Those were overwhelmingly G2a.

Hm, ty for the correction
So honestly, no idea, when this start a show in europe? BA?

[Power77]

Hm, ty for the correction
So honestly, no idea, when this start a show in europe? BA?

How about Hellenized Egyptians (or Phoenicians) during the Classical period?

[Gallop]

Much older in Europe? I doubt that tbh.

I have not mentioned Europe.

[Cristiano viejo]

Africa, as any branch of haplogroup E.

[Power77]

Africa, as any branch of haplogroup E.

So you think the first E-V13 carriers came to Europe as Negroes and/or Mulattoes?

[Miko]

I think they migrated from descendants of Natufians, or maybe Egyptians(haplogroup E carriers).
Since there aren't Myceneans, samples seem to suggest they came right before the Dark Ages. And later they expanded to all of Europe during the Roman Empire.

[Power77]

I think they migrated from descendants of Natufians, or maybe Egyptians(haplogroup E carriers).
Since there aren't Myceneans, samples seem to suggest they came right before the Dark Ages. And later they expanded to all of Europe during the Roman Empire.

Interesting insight. Maybe E-V13 has something to do with the Pelasgians (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians)? How do you think Albanians got this haplogroup though? Are Proto-Albanians originally a Pelasgian tribe (represented by E-V13) that has assimilated and mixed with various Thraco-Illyrian groups (represented by R1b-Z2103 and J2b2-L283)? Perhaps they were the opposite? That is a Thraco-Illyrian population that has absorbed a Pelasgian element (probably in Roman times) before the Slavic invasions of the Balkans.

[Loki]

How about Hellenized Egyptians (or Phoenicians) during the Classical period?

That's very possible, or something like that.

[Loki]

So you think the first E-V13 carriers came to Europe as Negroes and/or Mulattoes?

Absolutely not!

[Loki]

Africa, as any branch of haplogroup E.

Not all branches originated in Africa. E-V13 doesn't seem to have.

[catgeorge]

The Arab branch came from the Romans as Arab branch is very young at 1500 years

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5786/

This is Roman branch ~4700 years old

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

This is Balkan branch ~4400 years old

Balkan Branch is absolutely massive

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/

[hazmatnik]

Balkan Branch is absolutely massive

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/


Are you sure this is "Balkan branch"? There are people everywhere.

[catgeorge]

Are you sure this is "Balkan branch"? There are people everywhere.

Pretty confident considering the age of samples the downstream is enormous.

[hazmatnik]

Pretty confident considering the age of samples the downstream is enormous.

So we were seeding people from UAE to Morocco, i would be proud of that (since both of my branches are below BY3880) but i think they cycled many many times around and came back with many other people.

[catgeorge]

So we were seeding people from UAE to Morocco, i would be proud of that (since both of my branches are below BY3880) but i think they cycled many many times around and came back with many other people.

Very possible your guess is as good as mine what happened 4000 to 1000 years ago.

[hazmatnik]

Very possible your guess is as good as mine what happened 4000 to 1000 years ago.

How would you comment my autosomal matches from Greece, many are E-V13 and R1b on 23andme?

https://i.postimg.cc/pLcv7PSL/Untitled-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v4nCxwMJ)

Purple star is our Y cousin TMRCA is 2100 years.

[catgeorge]

How would you comment my autosomal matches from Greece, many are E-V13 and R1b on 23andme?

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

Purple star is our Y cousin TMRCA is 2100 years.

Not sure tbh - Maybe Balkan ancestry is all very similar with differing variations that makes each ethnicity unique from each other- R1b probably came from Anatolian Neolithic.

https://i.imgur.com/jSn7Qku.gif

[kingmob]

my autosomal matches from Greece, many are E-V13 and R1b on 23andme?



What kind of R1b.

[hazmatnik]

What kind of R1b.

R-PF7558 and R-BY250 mostly.

[kingmob]

R-PF7558 and R-BY250 mostly.


The first one is found in the recent ancient Greek samples published (Skourtanioti et al., 2022) and, in my opinion, is a proto-Greek speaker marker.

The second one is downstream of Balkan Yamnaya (Z2106).

[hazmatnik]

The first one is found in the recent ancient Greek samples published (Skourtanioti et al., 2022) and, in my opinion, is a proto-Greek speaker marker.

The second one is downstream of Balkan Yamnaya (Z2106).

My aunts (especially maternal aunt) matches are even more interesting and puzzling. Lot of islands.

[Snake_]

Do any of you guys have any clues where E-V13 came from? For instance, from which ancient tribe(s) do you think this lineage first originated? It doesn't seem closely linked to Thracians and Illyrians at all (as those were most likely either R1b-Z2103 or J2b2--L283 according to ancient DNA studies which dealt with Iron and Bronze Age remains). Moreover, it also seems loosely tied to Ancient Greeks (it only showed up in 2 samples from a Late Greek Iron Age site in Sicily but didn't show up in any earlier samples from the Mycenaean and Minoan periods so far). Its present-day high frequencies in the Balkans (especially among Kosovar Albanians) appear to have been caused by a relatively recent founder effect. Truth be told, it does look like its presence on the European continent may not be as old as we think it is.

I know this is an extremely touchy subject for many people on this forum, but I'd still like to hear you guys' opinions on the matter.

It has actually been found among Iron Age Thracians (900 BC) and also found in Iron Age Sicily (400 BC). And was abundant in the Balkans during the Roman period. It's just not maybe linked to the steppes or proto-Thracians. One Ancient sample from Albania was also found to be R1b-PF7563 btw.

[Snake_]

It's parent E-L618 was also found in Croatia, Macedonia etc and I believe one E-V13 found in Neolithic spain.

[Snake_]

Interesting insight. Maybe E-V13 has something to do with the Pelasgians (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians)? How do you think Albanians got this haplogroup though? Are Proto-Albanians originally a Pelasgian tribe (represented by E-V13) that has assimilated and mixed with various Thraco-Illyrian groups (represented by R1b-Z2103 and J2b2-L283)? Perhaps they were the opposite? That is a Thraco-Illyrian population that has absorbed a Pelasgian element (probably in Roman times) before the Slavic invasions of the Balkans.

No, classical Thracians had mostly E-V13 and some R1a-Z93. Glasinac Mati Illyrians were J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103-CTS1450 and R-PF7563. I am not saying that all E-V13 in the Balkans or Europe can be attributed to Thracians but that classical Thracians clearly had this Y-DNA. Pelasgians were a non-IE speaking people so cannot be possibly related to proto-Albanian, an IE language considered to of arrived in the Balkans during the Bronze Age.

[Power77]

It has been found in Iron Age Sicily (400 BC).

Sounds like one of the Late Greek Iron Age samples I mentioned in my first post.

[Power77]

No, Classical Thracians had mostly E-V13 and some R1a-Z93.

Those "Thracian" samples could've very well belonged to Greeks or Hellenized Pelasgians. On a similar note, the R1a-Z93 sample may actually be a Scythian. We cannot know for sure. Bones don't talk after all. Last but not least, it is important to keep in mind that the Classical period is relatively recent chronologically speaking.


Glasinac-Mati Illyrians were J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103-CTS1450 and R1b-PF7563.

See? No E-V13 in sight here;).


Pelasgians were a non-IE speaking people so cannot be possibly related to Proto-Albanian, an IE language considered to have arrived in the Balkans during the Bronze Age.

This doesn't mean nor prove anything. The fact that Pelasgians didn't speak an Indo-European language doesn't mean their eventual descendants didn't. Moreover, Albanian has such a considerable non-IE substrate (https://gazetadielli.com/linguistic-relationships-of-albanians-with-the-pre-indo-european-inhabitants-of-their-territories/) that it prompted some linguists to reconsider its status as an Indo-European language. Linguistics isn't exactly a hard science anyway.

[kingmob]

Some Pelasgians could have been Indo-Anatolian speakers if they were connected to the Carians.

Out of all the BA (and later) Anatolians, Carians were the group that intermingled the most with the Greeks.

[kingmob]

This is an approximation of what happened, imo, based on current evidence:

https://i.ibb.co/PxCssk0/1.png

[wvwvw]

The Pelasgians were Greeks, Hellenes, Greek speaking. The Hellenes were a subset of Pelasgians. And the Hellenic dialects were a subset of Pelasgian. Herodotus says that both the Dorians and Ionians were originally Pelasgians. The Dorian-Pelasgi came to Greece in 2200 BC and later in 1900 BC the Ionians came along and put a wedge between those in the north and those in the Peloponnese. The Dorian-Pelasgi in North-Western Greece became Dorians. Those in the Peloponnese and Thessaly became Pelasgi. The Dorian's were nomadic whereas the Pelasgi were City Dwellers hence their name Polis-gi.

What you really have in mind are the Hellads of Greece. Look up Helladic civilization.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Helladic-civilization

The Anatolians and Hellads split from the group about 7,000-10,000 years ago when one group of Hellads (YAP linage) migrated across the Mediterranean coastline to Cyprus and Greece and spread agriculture where they went and the other founded the Egyptian civilisation.

5000 years ago the Hellads and one group of Pelasgians combined forces to form the Minoan Greek civilisation which spread the Greek language to the Italo-Celts and Hellenes in the north. 3000 years ago the Hellenes migrated south and eventfully conquered the Minoans.

Of the remainder of the Hellads one group went on to join the Hittites and the Hittite Empire emerge. They even used the crypto-Minoan script.

There were 3 DNA lineages which formed the population in Mycenaean times. J2 and E came to Greece over 10,000 years ago and brought agriculture with them and R1b came to Greece between 3000 and 1900 BC. The combined languages of these people became known as proto-Greek. I-ydna did not exist in Greece before 200 BC and R1a before 600 BC.

[wvwvw]

Some Pelasgians could have been Indo-Anatolian speakers if they were connected to the Carians.

Out of all the BA (and later) Anatolians, Carians were the group that intermingled the most with the Greeks.

The Tyrrhenians, Phrygians, Mysians, Lydians and Carians were all related and were all originally Maonians, descendendants of Manes, and after the time of Thera eruption they split into the tribes of Phrygians, Mysians, Lydians and Carians as well as that of the Tyrrhenians.

The Meonians used to live above the Macedonians in the Balkans before they moved to Asia Minor. The Greeks (Hellads+Pelasgalaieans (the original name of all Greek tribes) were already there from Minoan times. These people had Greek kings most of the time.

[wvwvw]

Interesting insight. Maybe E-V13 has something to do with the Pelasgians

No, E-V13 arrived to Greece 10,000 ago. The Pelasgians arrived or dwelled in Northern Greece in 2200 BC, and were R1b, and after 1600 they reach Myceneans and they are of mixed lineages R1b, E-v13, and J2. Or maybe they were already mixed lineages by 2000 BC.

E-V13 E is a white North African linage and arrived to Greece 10,000 years ago. The Berbers and the Japanese are both descended from the same DNA linage, M1.

40% of Japanese are descended form the M1 sub linage M174 which is the earliest linage to have split from M1 and these people are clearly are not black. 20% of Greeks and Southern Italians, and 50% of Lebanese and Persians are M35 and none of these people are black either. They are all olive skined. The Berbers are not black either nor was the population of northern Africa which is nearly 100% M35 and almost all white.

Considering the split of M1 into two haplgroups D-M174 (which migrated to Japan and) D-M96 from which M35 is a derivative it is clear that the M1 parent linage was white or olive skinned.

The Eb1 linage is a white linage which dominates the whole of northern Africa and can be found in 1/4 of the population of Greece and Albania, nearly 1/4 of the population of southern Italy, 1/2 the population of Iran and most middle eastern countries and is seen in significant amounts in India and northern Europe.

For the past 12,000 years at least the dominant DNA lineage in northern Africa has been E1b and that is a lineage which is descended from M168 from which all Asians, Europeans and Native Americans are descended from therefore this lineage should have European features and cranial type.

The Pelsasgian Greeks and Phoenicians are part of the YAP E1b linage. I think it is this YAP insertion that makes people prone Sickle Cell Anaemia and Thallasemia. It is closely related to 1/3 of the Japanese population. 40% of the Japanese population is descended from the M174 lineage which is a derivative of M1 and therefore a cousin of E-M35 which made up 1/3 of the ancient Greek population. This explains the many Japanese Greek cognates which came from a common M1 language 80,000 or 60,000 years ago.

By virtue of is appearance in 40% of the population of Japan as D-M174 and the fact that Japanese have fairer and curlier hair and skin and more European looking facial shapes especially the men when compared to Chinese it can be concluded that the YAP insertion of which E-M35 is part of is a DNA linage which through climatic conditions in the coastal areas and open plains where it is found evolved to be white with gracile features best suited for swimming in the sea and a diet of fish.