What phenotypes were present in Bell Beakers?

[Jingle Bell]

Im interesting to know how they looked since thy were a kinda diverse group

[Beowulf]

https://i.postimg.cc/3xLHZxkB/carrownacon-woman-by-philipedwin-df2toi8-fullview.jpg (https://postimg.cc/k2tZJ9F6)

[Beowulf]

there are other facial reconstructions and they seem mostly atlantid type and keltic nordid

[Jingle Bell]

https://i.postimg.cc/3xLHZxkB/carrownacon-woman-by-philipedwin-df2toi8-fullview.jpg (https://postimg.cc/k2tZJ9F6)

Yeah, seens a very Atlantid

[Immanenz]

a mix of Borreby, Dinaric and Corded classed by Coon- and acc. to him nowadays most Beaker types are found in Scotland, genetically though Irish are the most Bell Beaker

they were famous for very robust Planoccopital types but obv. not only

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VLqTN0yKxHM/V06qLjKgMXI/AAAAAAAAEgE/YbpxvH3cYg8A5VnnKp6TC46yOiPEPOLrwCLcB/s650/Bee_Low_Bell_Beaker.png

this Hungarian Bell Beaker on the other hand looks rather short and slighltly wide faced with extreme dolicephaly- also genetically close to 100 % Steppe

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hb-FAwmrdxI/WVgCMlPQXII/AAAAAAAAYhE/iwb_AhRRuxgdpgmUj3lZWffKXCSjMYR4ACLcBGAs/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2017-07-01%2Bat%2B3.12.12%2BPM.png

[aherne]

https://i.postimg.cc/3xLHZxkB/carrownacon-woman-by-philipedwin-df2toi8-fullview.jpg (https://postimg.cc/k2tZJ9F6)

Hair/eyes pigmentation are way off. I've never seen someone with this face that isn't blue eyed and brown haired (at least). Very pure Aryan (sibling of Scythian Ice Maiden) and incredibly masculine for our times (if women looked like this imagine how men looked like)

[Beowulf]

Hair/eyes pigmentation are way off. I've never seen someone with this face that isn't blue eyed and brown haired (at least). Very pure Aryan (sibling of Scythian Ice Maiden) and incredibly masculine for our times (if women looked like this imagine how men looked like)

Idk is a facial reconstruction so that means that she probably had blue eyes or something like that is not 100% sure and there are better individuals of bell beaker people

[Italicus]

Most likely Keltic Nordid and Brunn.

[cmt160]

https://i.postimg.cc/3xLHZxkB/carrownacon-woman-by-philipedwin-df2toi8-fullview.jpg (https://postimg.cc/k2tZJ9F6)

That reconstruction looks a lot like my mom in terms of facial structure/features. Interesting.

[cmt160]

Hair/eyes pigmentation are way off. I've never seen someone with this face that isn't blue eyed and brown haired (at least). Very pure Aryan (sibling of Scythian Ice Maiden) and incredibly masculine for our times (if women looked like this imagine how men looked like)

She doesn't look masculine at all lol
maybe forehead and face length is exaggerated.
But yeah it says a lot if modern men look barely more robust than her. About them being malnourished and maldeveloped due to historical starvation as well as grain consumption (only food available for peasants and during all the famines) and overall bad conditions. And its all going downhill. Expect even more degeneration in the future. Its not that women used to have higher testosterone levels, but that they were well-fed and nourished compared to modern people, and thats why they were more developed. Actually they had an even more feminine/healthy/balanced hormonal level, the women of the past, higher actual estrogen (not fake xenoestrogen from soy/weird manmade toxic plant foods/hormone disrupters in plastic which actually ruin the natural production of endogenous steroids and all kinds of hormones which all derivate from cholesterol). Also because they were pregnant all the time which is natural :D . And the men had naturally high testosterone, very high compared to someone modern and yeah you guessed it right, "imagine how they looked like". Just see all those paleolithic skulls. Even early medieval germanic skulls looked basically like those cromagnon hunter gatherer skulls.

Degeneration is def more recent than we think, like we actually lived naturally and were healthy up until relatively recently. In rural places I mean. Cities def have a tradition of degeneration im willing to think.

And that woman from the reconstruction could have had brown eyes no problem. Remember that pigmentation specially iris pigmentation doesnt always correlate with features. My mother is similar to that in terms of features (tho smaller) but shes brown eyed. She does have pale skin and freckles tho as well as auburn/dark "red" hair naturally (she was a ginger when she was a kid) so yeah I understand your association of that pheno with light features, there's def a correlation.

[Nationofsymbol]

They were mostly dinarid and mediterranean with minority keltic nordids and brunns

[Grace O'Malley]

Rathlin

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/388694e0-d873-4973-87d0-f37d225317c0/dekbj22-c5eee40f-3bf6-408a-9819-f9b691534022.jpg/v1/fit/w_828,h_834,q_70,strp/rathlin1_by_philipedwin_dekbj22-414w-2x.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9. eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZD QxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgy MjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaW dodCI6Ijw9MTI5MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzM4ODY5NGUwLWQ4 NzMtNDk3My04N2QwLWYzN2QyMjUzMTdjMFwvZGVrYmoyMi1jNW VlZTQwZi0zYmY2LTQwOGEtOTgxOS1mOWI2OTE1MzQwMjIuanBn Iiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEyODAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcn ZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.3Iobwg-01LUqEHt_mKPef8D-f56cd-lcSLQ8raRu86E

Target: Ireland_EBA.SG:rath1_noUDG.SG
Distance: 4.3641% / 0.04364144
58.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
28.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.6 WHG

[Oliver109]

Rathlin

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/388694e0-d873-4973-87d0-f37d225317c0/dekbj22-c5eee40f-3bf6-408a-9819-f9b691534022.jpg/v1/fit/w_828,h_834,q_70,strp/rathlin1_by_philipedwin_dekbj22-414w-2x.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9. eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZD QxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgy MjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaW dodCI6Ijw9MTI5MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzM4ODY5NGUwLWQ4 NzMtNDk3My04N2QwLWYzN2QyMjUzMTdjMFwvZGVrYmoyMi1jNW VlZTQwZi0zYmY2LTQwOGEtOTgxOS1mOWI2OTE1MzQwMjIuanBn Iiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEyODAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcn ZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.3Iobwg-01LUqEHt_mKPef8D-f56cd-lcSLQ8raRu86E

Target: Ireland_EBA.SG:rath1_noUDG.SG
Distance: 4.3641% / 0.04364144
58.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
28.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
13.6 WHG

Looks kelto brunn, must have an origin from northwestern Asia originally

[Grace O'Malley]

Looks kelto brunn, must have an origin from northwestern Asia originally

Unless all these populations have their origin from there also? Modern populations he is closest to. As far as I'm aware the ones that came to Ireland came through the Netherlands then into Britain and then to Ireland. They were descended from Corded Ware Single Grave culture that expanded west.

Distance to: Ireland_EBA.SG:rath1_noUDG.SG
0.03069719 Norwegian
0.03103584 Icelandic
0.03332097 Swedish
0.03378298 Danish
0.03447989 Irish
0.03551154 Orcadian
0.03617921 Scottish
0.03767382 Shetlandic
0.03989974 Dutch
0.04041206 English
0.04151677 German_Hamburg
0.04219014 Welsh
0.04388526 English_Cornwall
0.04721169 Afrikaner
0.04727259 French_Brittany
0.04890373 German
0.05117915 German_East
0.05236264 German_Erlangen
0.05431033 Czech
0.05453686 BelgianA
0.05782340 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05868058 Austrian
0.06015439 BelgianB
0.06116926 Polish_Silesian
0.06179498 Polish_Kashubian

[Oliver109]

Unless all these populations have their origin from there also? Modern populations he is closest to. As far as I'm aware the ones that came to Ireland came through the Netherlands then into Britain and then to Ireland. They were descended from Corded Ware Single Grave culture that expanded west.

Distance to: Ireland_EBA.SG:rath1_noUDG.SG
0.03069719 Norwegian
0.03103584 Icelandic
0.03332097 Swedish
0.03378298 Danish
0.03447989 Irish
0.03551154 Orcadian
0.03617921 Scottish
0.03767382 Shetlandic
0.03989974 Dutch
0.04041206 English
0.04151677 German_Hamburg
0.04219014 Welsh
0.04388526 English_Cornwall
0.04721169 Afrikaner
0.04727259 French_Brittany
0.04890373 German
0.05117915 German_East
0.05236264 German_Erlangen
0.05431033 Czech
0.05453686 BelgianA
0.05782340 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05868058 Austrian
0.06015439 BelgianB
0.06116926 Polish_Silesian
0.06179498 Polish_Kashubian

Interesting, it could explain why many Dutch people can look quite similar to Irish, Germans too with very pale complexions and freckles.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting, it could explain why many Dutch people can look quite similar to Irish, Germans too with very pale complexions and freckles.

Irish and Dutch are Northwestern Europeans however the Bell Beakers are from an earlier movement during the Bronze Age. There has been Germanic population movements in a later period. In the end Northwestern Europeans descend from similar Bronze Age groups but a lot of this has still to be teased out in more detail. The ydna in Corded Ware was R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 so Bell Beakers originated from them. Some things which I would like answered in the future is why the Bell Beakers that came to Ireland and Britain were all R1b-L21? Anyway lots of things we still don't know.

Northwestern Europeans are very close genetic distance wise so they all descend from quite similar population mixes.

[Abti]

Alpine

[Oliver109]

Irish and Dutch are Northwestern Europeans however the Bell Beakers are from an earlier movement during the Bronze Age. There has been Germanic population movements in a later period. In the end Northwestern Europeans descend from similar Bronze Age groups but a lot of this has still to be teased out in more detail. The ydna in Corded Ware was R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 so Bell Beakers originated from them. Some things which I would like answered in the future is why the Bell Beakers that came to Ireland and Britain were all R1b-L21? Anyway lots of things we still don't know.

Northwestern Europeans are very close genetic distance wise so they all descend from quite similar population mixes.

That's interesting, there is a core northwest Euro look that is similar whether seen in Ireland, northern France, Germany, Denmark, would the darker French and Italians descend from a related population?

[Grace O'Malley]

That's interesting, there is a core northwest Euro look that is similar whether seen in Ireland, northern France, Germany, Denmark, would the darker French and Italians descend from a related population?

Europeans in the end are different combinations of Steppe, HG and farmer. Some populations do have extra input from east Mediterranean populations and North Africa. As I've said above there are still a lot of blanks to be filled in but the more broad questions have been answered. It is hard to believe but in 2010 for instance people were still arguing about where Bell Beakers came from. I won't rehash all that on here now but what I find is that people often go against logic and also find it hard to discard things that have been disproven. Some posters still do this. In the vast majority of cases neighbouring populations share the most genes with each other and will have similar population origins. Genetic distances obviously mean less connections.

[Nationofsymbol]

Europeans in the end are different combinations of Steppe, HG and farmer. Some populations do have extra input from east Mediterranean populations and North Africa. As I've said above there are still a lot of blanks to be filled in but the more broad questions have been answered. It is hard to believe but in 2010 for instance people were still arguing about where Bell Beakers came from. I won't rehash all that on here now but what I find is that people often go against logic and also find it hard to discard things that have been disproven. Some posters still do this. In the vast majority of cases neighbouring populations share the most genes with each other and will have similar population origins. Genetic distances obviously mean less connections.

Genetics are much more complicated than just a pca distance lmao, for example, driftless slav samples are literally identical based on pca distance to Scandinavians, this obviously begs the question as to why does the normal g25 pca algorithm make them two so far apart? Well it's called genetic drift that plays 10000000 times more important role in terms of connection and phenotypes than autosomal, also, bell beakers and Scandinavians had literally the same autosomal+same drift yet look substantially different from each other, of course the former being more dinarid and brachycephalic so mostly alpines

[Grace O'Malley]

Genetics are much more complicated than just a pca distance lmao, for example, driftless slav samples are literally identical based on pca distance to Scandinavians, this obviously begs the question as to why does the normal g25 pca algorithm make them two so far apart? Well it's called genetic drift that plays 10000000 times more important role in terms of connection and phenotypes than autosomal, also, bell beakers and Scandinavians had literally the same autosomal+same drift yet look substantially different from each other, of course the former being more dinarid and brachycephalic so mostly alpines

Drift happens when populations have some isolation from each other. It's obvious that if populations cluster together and this is a continuous cluster there has been gene flow between those populations. Populations will separate fairly quickly and drift if there isn't gene flow between them. This can be seen in populations such as the Basque, Sardinians etc. It is still easy to see that some populations have had less geneflow with other European populations. Finns are separated from Scandinavians for example and you can see how the Alps has been a barrier with the Italians. This doesn't mean there hasn't been admixture and some population movement but the geneflow has been curtailed and isn't continuous. Northwestern Europeans have obviously had continuous gene flow between them. For example if the Irish were isolated in the Bronze Age they would exhibit drift and have a separate cluster from other populations. This has not happened and there are historical events that explain this.

[Grace O'Malley]

Regarding Bell Beakers it is clear in this PCA that British and Dutch Bell Beakers were very similar.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xAJS_vldnfs/Xc0mRSuqf1I/AAAAAAAAIZA/EVV0r8Xu1XEnIU5igRfFd6GyR1_DVAK5QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Beaker_origins_PCA.png

I'll link below the blog from Eurogenes. But Dutch Bell Beakers are descendants of the local Single Grave Corded Ware population and the British and Dutch Bell Beakers derive the R1b-P312 from the Single Grave Corded Ware. Davidski puts the spread and expansion of Bell Beakers from the Netherlands (and lower Rhine region).

He puts the line of succession like this Bell Beakers derived from their Single Grave predecessors, who derived from Proto-Corded Ware and then the Steppes.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

[Cynewise]

Drift happens when populations have some isolation from each other. It's obvious that if populations cluster together and this is a continuous cluster there has been gene flow between those populations. Populations will separate fairly quickly and drift if there isn't gene flow between them. This can be seen in populations such as the Basque, Sardinians etc. It is still easy to see that some populations have had less geneflow with other European populations. Finns are separated from Scandinavians for example and you can see how the Alps has been a barrier with the Italians. This doesn't mean there hasn't been admixture and some population movement but the geneflow has been curtailed and isn't continuous. Northwestern Europeans have obviously had continuous gene flow between them. For example if the Irish were isolated in the Bronze Age they would exhibit drift and have a separate cluster from other populations. This has not happened and there are historical events that explain this.


Gene flow and genetic drift are not mutually exclusive processes. They often operate concurrently influencing the genetic makeup of populations. That continuous clustering of populations necessarily implies gene flow may oversimplify the dynamics of gene exchange. Gene flow can occur even within clustered populations esp. if there are no physical barriers preventing mating or if cultural factors promote interbreeding. The argument is a conflict between gene flow and genetic drift, suggesting that populations either cluster and experience gene flow or drift when isolated. Populations can show a variety of gene flow, ranging from complete isolation to extensive intermixing. The Basque and Sardinian examples mentioned may demonstrate some limited gene flow but has more has more to do with human migration, historical events, and cultural exchanges that have shaped these populations.

The case of the Finns and Scandinavians shows genetic differences do not necessarily indicate complete isolation. Historical migrations and cultural interactions can contribute to the observed genetic variation. Genetic drift may play a role but it's not the sole determinant of genetic differentiation. The reference to the Alps as a barrier for Italians is questionable. While geographic features can impede gene flow to some extent, human populations migrate and interact. Historical evidence suggests that people in mountainous regions, including the Alps, have engaged in trade, cultural exchange, and intermarriage, challenging the notion of complete isolation.

[Grace O'Malley]

Gene flow and genetic drift are not mutually exclusive processes. They often operate concurrently influencing the genetic makeup of populations. That continuous clustering of populations necessarily implies gene flow may oversimplify the dynamics of gene exchange. Gene flow can occur even within clustered populations esp. if there are no physical barriers preventing mating or if cultural factors promote interbreeding. The argument is a conflict between gene flow and genetic drift, suggesting that populations either cluster and experience gene flow or drift when isolated. Populations can show a variety of gene flow, ranging from complete isolation to extensive intermixing. The Basque and Sardinian examples mentioned may demonstrate some limited gene flow but has more has more to do with human migration, historical events, and cultural exchanges that have shaped these populations.

The case of the Finns and Scandinavians shows genetic differences do not necessarily indicate complete isolation. Historical migrations and cultural interactions can contribute to the observed genetic variation. Genetic drift may play a role but it's not the sole determinant of genetic differentiation. The reference to the Alps as a barrier for Italians is questionable. While geographic features can impede gene flow to some extent, human populations migrate and interact. Historical evidence suggests that people in mountainous regions, including the Alps, have engaged in trade, cultural exchange, and intermarriage, challenging the notion of complete isolation.

That is basically what I said above. What is obvious though with drift and separate clusters is much reduced interaction. If you look at Basques for example and this is a simplification they retained more Iron Age Iberian genetics so they didn't get as much genes from Moor incursions and other European populations that the rest of Iberians got so what separated them was some drift and also slightly different admixture. Also speaking of Iberians as a whole they retained a bit of separation from other European populations due to the Pyrenees. So while there has been some population movement into Iberia it wasn't continuous.

[Grace O'Malley]

Gene flow and genetic drift are not mutually exclusive processes. They often operate concurrently influencing the genetic makeup of populations. That continuous clustering of populations necessarily implies gene flow may oversimplify the dynamics of gene exchange. Gene flow can occur even within clustered populations esp. if there are no physical barriers preventing mating or if cultural factors promote interbreeding. The argument is a conflict between gene flow and genetic drift, suggesting that populations either cluster and experience gene flow or drift when isolated. Populations can show a variety of gene flow, ranging from complete isolation to extensive intermixing. The Basque and Sardinian examples mentioned may demonstrate some limited gene flow but has more has more to do with human migration, historical events, and cultural exchanges that have shaped these populations.

The case of the Finns and Scandinavians shows genetic differences do not necessarily indicate complete isolation. Historical migrations and cultural interactions can contribute to the observed genetic variation. Genetic drift may play a role but it's not the sole determinant of genetic differentiation. The reference to the Alps as a barrier for Italians is questionable. While geographic features can impede gene flow to some extent, human populations migrate and interact. Historical evidence suggests that people in mountainous regions, including the Alps, have engaged in trade, cultural exchange, and intermarriage, challenging the notion of complete isolation.

Regarding the Italians there was a study done about genetic relationships in Europe "The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe". It did show some isolation from the rest of Europe with Iberians and Italians. They are the populations for example the least affected by the Hunnic and Slavic expansions. Both Iberians and Italians have had less recent genetic gene flow from other parts of Europe and the mountains are clearly a reason for this.

As I've said above this does not mean no interaction and gene flow but obviously less of this which is why there are differences in clustering.


Regional variation: Interesting cases.
We now examine some of the more striking patterns we see in more detail.

There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations.

Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.



Italy, Iberia, and France.
On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54],[55].

In addition to the very few genetic common ancestors that Italians share both with each other and with other Europeans, we have seen significant modern substructure within Italy (i.e., Figure 2) that predates most of this common ancestry, and estimate that most of the common ancestry shared between Italy and other populations is older than about 2,300 years (Figure S16). Also recall that most populations show no substructure with regards to the number of blocks shared with Italians, implying that the common ancestors other populations share with Italy predate divisions within these other populations. This suggests significant old substructure and large population sizes within Italy, strong enough that different groups within Italy share as little recent common ancestry as other distinct, modern-day countries, substructure that was not homogenized during the migration period. These patterns could also reflect in part geographic isolation within Italy as well as a long history of settlement of Italy from diverse sources.

In contrast to Italy, the rate of sharing of IBD within the Iberian peninsula is similar to that within other populations in Europe. There is furthermore much less evidence of substructure within our Iberian samples than within the Italians, as shown in Figure S2. This suggests that the reduced rate of shared ancestry is due to geographic isolation (by distance and/or the Pyrenees) rather than long-term stable substructure within the peninsula.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Populations like Finns weren't included in this but it is still very interesting and fascinating. Also this does not mean lack of diversity because Iberia and Italy are more diverse genetically.

[aherne]

She doesn't look masculine at all lol
maybe forehead and face length is exaggerated.
But yeah it says a lot if modern men look barely more robust than her.

...

And that woman from the reconstruction could have had brown eyes no problem. Remember that pigmentation specially iris pigmentation doesnt always correlate with features. My mother is similar to that in terms of features (tho smaller) but shes brown eyed. She does have pale skin and freckles tho as well as auburn/dark "red" hair naturally (she was a ginger when she was a kid) so yeah I understand your association of that pheno with light features, there's def a correlation.

There is also a relationship with diet. People eating hard(er) food evolve to retain larger jaws and large teeth to allow better mastication... Eating soft food for many generations encourages a selection for more infantile features (nature always strives for lowest effort). We are the products of that selections: this is why "nordics" of today look like their 10yo version of their ancestors