Myths debunked by genetic studies.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Are you aware that large chunk of Bosnian Muslims actually settled in Bosnia from surrounding areas, after these areas were liberated from Ottomans?

All these areas in ex-Yugoslavia were in Ottoman ocupation in some part of history, and there was islamisation of local population.

https://i.redd.it/6ly18e8b7q961.jpg

After Austria took Ottoman parts of todays Croatia in 17-18th century, and Serbia liberated itself in 19th century, guess where all these islamized population took refuge???

They took refuge in Bosnia, because it stayed longer in Ottoman / Muslim rule, until 1878.

There are whole list new settlement in Bosnia recorded for Muslim settlers from todays Serbia and Croatia.


These people are not related with medieval Bosnia at all.
Still doesn't prove that those were the original Bosniaks, but more how people moved because of political/religious pressure.

Read De Administrando Imperio.

Read first paragraph.
Cite it here.

[Dušan]

Still doesn't prove that those were the original Bosniaks, but more how people moved because of political/religious pressure.

Cite it here.

That proved that large part of Bosniaks are settlers from surrounding areas, with no connection with medieval Bosnia.
Yet you said that term Bosniak means Muslim with deep ancestry from Bosnia.

Todays term Bosniak means Slavic speaking Muslim from area of ex-Yugoslavia.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

That proved that large part of Bosniaks are settlers from surrounding areas, with no connection with medieval Bosnia.
Yet you said that term Bosniak means Muslim with deep ancestry from Bosnia.

Todays term Bosniak means Slavic speaking Muslim from area of ex-Yugoslavia.
It should mean the same as Bosnjani. The term however has been changed to mean different things in different peoples eyes for political reasons. But that's not interesting since it's not the truth.
You think you can undo so many peoples ancestry just by these arguments, when there are living and breathing people, and records of the past?

But you still haven't given me the text so I'm waiting.

So stop putting so much effort into thoughts about Bosniaks and go help out your fellow Serbs

[Dušan]

It should mean the same as Bosnjani. The term however has been changed to mean different things in different peoples eyes for political reasons. But that's not interesting since it's not the truth.
You think you can undo so many peoples ancestry just by these arguments, when there are living and breathing people, and records of the past?

But you still haven't given me the text so I'm waiting.

So stop putting so much effort into thoughts about Bosniaks and go help out your fellow Serbs

Term Bosniak is political term used for ex-Yugoslav Muslims, wheter their origin form Bosnia or not.
Past is recorded, and migrations some of them from todays Serbia, Monetenegro and Croatia into Bosnia.

And Muslims took that term Bosniak for clear political pretensions on entire territory of Bosnia-Herzgovina againt Bosnian Serbs and Croats. "We are "Bosniaks", so Bosnia belong to us".

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Term Bosniak is political term used for ex-Yugoslav Muslims, wheter their origin form Bosnia or not.
In the past Bosniak was more of a term for Bosnian muslims (of Bosnian lands).

And who caused the politicization? There were clearly agitators who wanted to propagate their view on people, and to some extent they succeeded.


Past is recorded, and migrations some of them from todays Serbia, Monetenegro and Croatia into Bosnia.
So is the fact that there a big population of Bosniaks who are natives to their land. You do understand that you need to be able to refer to specific text that proves your point?


And Muslims took that term Bosniak for clear political pretensions on entire territory of Bosnia-Herzgovina againt Bosnian Serbs and Croats. "We are "Bosniaks", so Bosnia belong to us".

Muslims (of non-Bosnian heritage) probably started calling themselves that because it was more beneficial for political reasons, than calling themselves i.e. muslim Serbs. And it's understandable to some extent because of all the political tension in some areas, but where it starts to be noticed at some point is their behavior and culture compared to that of Bosniaks from Bosnia.

Who said that Bosnia belongs to the Bosniaks? It belongs to the Bosnians, it's that simple. If BiH as a federation was so politically pretentious they would get rid of Republika Srpska very soon.

And if we take into account the muslim Serbs, it turns out that some of those who have the Bosniak nationalist politics also happen to be originally Serbs, from Serbia. So this seems to be you talking to a mirror than actually having anything to do with "Bosniaks".

[RyoHazuki]

That north iberians are pure Celtic, white people with very high incidences of blonde hair and/ or blue eyes. And the south is full of brown moorish, gyspy, Arab, etc. remnants.

^ that is a pure ironic comment by the way. I doubt people actually think that but it still has merit as a legitimate myth.

Truth: the differences in genetics in Iberia majorly flow east to west not north to south. For example, a person from alto Minho nearby Galicia won't be genetically or much physically different to someone from Faro on the coastal most southern point. Same applies to most of Spain... someone in Huelva or Sevilla genetically are quite similar to Leonese, Valencians close to Catalonians. There may be more possibility for tiny extraneous traces in the very south of anywhere but not enough to really even question differences at all on ethnic grounds

Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav4040

Do East Iberians show more similarity to Basques?

[Jingle Bell]

Do East Iberians show more similarity to Basques?

yep, especially NE ones, while West Iberians have more Taforalt like (Usually, sometimes there a overlap) and clusters a bit more diferent

https://i.imgur.com/E4QcNBA.png (using averages of each region)

East ones show a more tendency to be closer to Basques but is not too much diference

[Beowulf]

yep, especially NE ones, while West Iberians have more Taforalt like (Usually, sometimes there a overlap) and clusters a bit more diferent

https://i.imgur.com/E4QcNBA.png (using averages of each region)

East ones show a more tendency to be closer to Basques but is not too much diference

is me or East Iberians on average are a bit more north shifted? is because there is less Taforalt like DNA?

[Jingle Bell]

is me or East Iberians on average are a bit more north shifted? is because there is less Taforalt like DNA?

West iberians generally have more Steppe but more Taforalt, while East ones have less steppe and more Taforalt, so basically the extra steppe its annulled by the extra taforalt and both still the same:
(Using Swedish to show a more Northern plot, a Sardinain to show a more South plot, Canarias to show a more NA plot and Basque to a more Iberia BBC/Iron-Bronze Age plot)
https://i.imgur.com/pEm8Oru.png
as u can see iberians are mainly btw Canarias and Basques, which means that the variation of steppe its minimal, which also shows that Celtic & Germanic blood isnt concetrated in any place, Iberia is VERY HOMOGENOUS

[vader]

meh, iberia is def. minimally different in terms of small variation, but that small variation can have a lot of implications - and all in all they show different clusters. I don't have a lot of steppe, about 28%, but with slightly elevated whg. West iberia generally can have more variability in terms of people getting taforalt and even ssa admixtures... thus why they plot closer to canarias than, for example, a basque or eastern spaniard who doesnt have these extraneous admixtures. In other words, I wouldn't ever feel close to an aragonese person, or any eastern Spaniards for that matter... I get distances far from them.



is me or East Iberians on average are a bit more north shifted? is because there is less Taforalt like DNA?

Eastern Spaniards are more north-shifted... being closer to western europe provided them with more availability of mixing with more northern stock in ancient, and more modern times. The idea that west iberia is the celtic headquarters is a myth... the eastern Spaniards are def. more celtic.

[Jingle Bell]

meh, iberia is def. minimally different in terms of small variation, but that small variation can have a lot of implications - and all in all they show different clusters. I don't have a lot of steppe, about 28%, but with slightly elevated whg. West iberia generally can have more variability in terms of people getting taforalt and even ssa admixtures... thus why they plot closer to canarias than, for example, a basque or eastern spaniard who doesnt have these extraneous admixtures. In other words, I wouldn't ever feel close to an aragonese person, or any eastern Spaniards for that matter... I get distances far from them.




Eastern Spaniards are more north-shifted... being closer to western europe provided them with more availability of mixing with more northern stock in ancient, and more modern times. The idea that west iberia is the celtic headquarters is a myth... the eastern Spaniards are def. more celtic.

west iberia have more Bell Beaker related but at the same time more NA

some tests:


Target: Galician-Portuguese:Portuguese
Distance: 1.3987% / 0.01398712
48.0 DEU_Lech_BBC
18.2 Iberia_Central_CA
13.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
9.6 Berber_IA/MA


Target: Galician-Portuguese:Spanish_Galicia
Distance: 1.4995% / 0.01499535
50.4 DEU_Lech_BBC
20.0 Iberia_Central_CA
15.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
8.4 Berber_IA/MA
6.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

abt 50% Central European Bell Beaker

Target: Eastern_Spain:Spanish_Valencia
Distance: 1.2657% / 0.01265651
49.4 DEU_Lech_BBC
24.8 Iberia_Central_CA
15.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
3.8 Berber_IA/MA


Target: S_Eastern_Spain:Spanish_Murcia
Distance: 1.4858% / 0.01485782
45.0 DEU_Lech_BBC
23.4 Iberia_Central_CA
18.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.8 Berber_IA/MA
6.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

Target: Eastern_Spain:Spanish_Baleares
Distance: 1.7598% / 0.01759790
49.8 DEU_Lech_BBC
21.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
17.2 Iberia_Central_CA
7.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.6 Berber_IA/MA

Western Iberia have if not the same a bit more BBC related ancestry than East Iberia, thats even begin abt 10% NA compared to the ~5% in the Easterns (The expections are just Penedes and Catalonia which have more BBC, prob from extra Frank/French admix)

[Marshall Theodore]

West iberia generally can have more variability in terms of people getting taforalt and even ssa admixtures...

The average western Iberian (including portuguese) doesnt score any SSA on G25.



Eastern Spaniards are more north-shifted...

False, as was said by Jingle Bell, western iberians have more Bell Beaker stock and higher frequence of L Y-DNA (the last in the case of Galicians).


The idea that west iberia is the celtic headquarters is a myth...

False.

[Marshall Theodore]

west iberia have more Bell Beaker related but at the same time more NA

Thats strange, but It seems that western iberians, even portuguese, are closer to some North Europeans than NW Italians do, probably because NW Italians have more Extra-CHG/Iran_N than NE ones?

Distance to: English_Cornwall
0.07428089 Portuguese
0.08057196 Italian_Piedmont

Distance to: BelgianA
0.06186500 Portuguese
0.06480248 Italian_Piedmont

[Jingle Bell]

Thats strange, but It seems that western iberians, even portuguese, are closer to some North Europeans than NW Italians do, probably because NW Italians have more Extra-CHG/Iran_N than NE ones?

Distance to: English_Cornwall
0.07428089 Portuguese
0.08057196 Italian_Piedmont

Distance to: BelgianA
0.06186500 Portuguese
0.06480248 Italian_Piedmont

Yep, its bcs Portugueses have more WHG thats shift they more North , while Italians almost lack, despite having more PIE they WHG its so low that plost they drastically more south (ENF) Compared to Frenchs or Iberians , i myself have more WHG than the big majority of italians have (5% - 6%) , idk why they have so little

Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343328
57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 WHG
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.8 Levant_PPNB
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

[Marshall Theodore]

Yep, its bcs Portugueses have more WHG , while Italiasn almost lack, i myself have more WHg than italians do, idk why they have so little

Target: Italian_Piedmont
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343328
57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.8 WHG
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.8 Levant_PPNB
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

What is Kura-Araxes? something related to Iran_N?

[Varda]

----

---

In early middle age Slavic people who settled in present day Bosnia were Serbs (in eastern and central part) and Croatians (in western part). There was no any Bosnians or Bosniaks in that time.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Slavic_tribes_in_the_7th_to_9th_century.jpg

Bosnia was named by river Bosna, not by some ethnic group. Bošnjani and Bošnjaci were just geographical term for inhabitants of Bosnia (as today Bosanci), nothing ethnic.
Until 12th century Bosnia was just one geographical region in Serbia. In the second half of 12th century Bosnia also acquired a political dimension. In 1150. Joannes Kinnamos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kinnamos) wrote that river Drina divides Bosnia from the rest of Serbia, which means that Bosnia still was integral part of Serbia in 1150. Early Bosnia was formed in the regions where Serbs settled in early middle age - present day central, northeastern and part of eastern Bosnia. Modern western Bosnia which was populated by Croatians in early and high middle age is not proto/early Bosnia, it became part of Bosnia in the late middle age and even later.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/img_20230131_175753-jpg.1291136/

[Jingle Bell]

What is Kura-Araxes? something related to Iran_N?

Basically a BA caucasian population

Distance to: CaucasusCHG:KK1
0.14035062 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.18533399 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.23172601 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.30315243 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.33642111 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.33971288 TUR_Barcin_N
0.34729766 Levant_PPNB
0.46550574 Jarawa
0.52244732 MAR_Taforalt
0.52292440 WHG
0.62083594 Han
0.63479166 Nganassan
0.66149065 ETH_4500BP
0.68856863 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.71781405 Dinka
0.73412051 Gambian
0.75816277 Yoruba

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 3.2848% / 0.03284789
42.2 Caucasus_10KYA
31.2 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA
19.6 Zagros_Mountains_10KYA
4.0 Levant_10KYA
3.0 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya

[Marshall Theodore]

Basically a CA caucasian population

Distance to: CaucasusCHG:KK1
0.14035062 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.18533399 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.23172601 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.30315243 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.33642111 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.33971288 TUR_Barcin_N
0.34729766 Levant_PPNB
0.46550574 Jarawa
0.52244732 MAR_Taforalt
0.52292440 WHG
0.62083594 Han
0.63479166 Nganassan
0.66149065 ETH_4500BP
0.68856863 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.71781405 Dinka
0.73412051 Gambian
0.75816277 Yoruba

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 3.2848% / 0.03284789
42.2 Caucasus_10KYA
31.2 Anatolia_Greece_10KYA
19.6 Zagros_Mountains_10KYA
4.0 Levant_10KYA
3.0 Steppe_Proto_Yamnaya

Interesting, closer to Taforalt than WHGs.

[vader]

The average western Iberian (including portuguese) doesnt score any SSA on G25.




False, as was said by Jingle Bell, western iberians have more Bell Beaker stock and higher frequence of L Y-DNA (the last in the case of Galicians).



False.

you'd have to back up your claim instead of just saying what I say is "false". I am fully Portuguese and score a small amount of ssa. And so do many full Portuguese on this forum, and other forums from all regions, including far north. The Portuguese sample on G25 is a mystery, we don't know where it was obtained, when, or from who in specific. It looks pretty standard as most Portuguese plot around it even when people have SSA, and/or higher taforalt, or not, but either way your point has no barring on anything.

In terms of the celtic dna myth... Jingle Bells model is using components that have a large amount of overlap between each other. It doesn't prove anything in relation to the claim that west iberia has more celtic dna than east. We wouldn't be able to detect that by looking at those components. We just need a more elaborate study done to even substantiate any of these ideas, G25 cannot be taken too seriously in any capacity.

[Marshall Theodore]

you'd have to back up your claim instead of just saying what I say is "false". I am fully Portuguese and score a small amount of ssa. And so do many full Portuguese on this forum, and other forums from all regions, including far north.

I am talking about averages, not individual outliers.

[vader]

I am talking about averages, not individual outliers.

Read again. We don't know where this average was obtained, where, when, etc. you can't take G25 coordinates so seriously. Either way, even that average has SSA inside of it hidden in components (particularly Taforalt)... so Portuguese absolutely do get SSA admixture, even many Spaniards do. And it's absolutely not true that we are outliers when we plot right ontop of the Portuguese average despite the SSA showing up. :picard1: ... I actually plot more nearby to Castille y Leon in my case according to G25. Am I going to say I am Leonese now? Hell no. G25 isn't something you can use to make any claim regarding to academic genetic research... let alone a specific identity marker in regards to modern nations and border origins.

[Marshall Theodore]

Read again. We don't know where this average was obtained, where, when, etc. you can't take G25 coordinates so seriously.
Im also referring to the academic part, not amateur calculators, 2 studies that i have downloaded on my PC establish similar percentages of SSA, but both only mentions Southern Iberians (S. Portuguese included), and range from 0,2% to 1,41%±0,72%, nothing more from it, you talk like portuguese are mulattoes or quadroons.




Either way, even that average has SSA inside of it hidden in components (particularly Taforalt)... so Portuguese absolutely do get SSA admixture, even many Spaniards do.

Taforalt being half or 1/3 SSA is debatable, there's no consensus and you should not use G25 to modelate Taforalt.

Moreover, by that way, you should talk about your (very) minor mongoloid-like blood (Ust Ishim/Tianyuan) from ANE, since ALL europeans have It alongside CHG/West Asian, pratically mongrels, and if you have SSA, you should not overestimate it to turn you or your people "less european", swarthy boy.

[Marshall Theodore]

you can't take G25 coordinates so seriously.


I actually plot more nearby to Castille y Leon in my case according to G25

Jesus...

[Marshall Theodore]

deleted.

[Marshall Theodore]

deleted.

[vader]

Im also referring to the academic part, not amateur calculators, 2 studies that i have downloaded on my PC establish similar percentages of SSA, but both only mentions Southern Iberians (S. Portuguese included), and range from 0,2% to 1,41%±0,72%, nothing more from it, you talk like portuguese are mulattoes or quadroons.





Taforalt being half or 1/3 SSA is debatable, there's no consensus and you should not use G25 to modelate Taforalt.

Moreover, by that way, you should talk about your (very) minor mongoloid-like blood (Ust Ishim/Tianyuan) from ANE, since ALL europeans have It alongside CHG/West Asian, pratically mongrels, and if you have SSA, you should not overestimate it to turn you or your people "less european", swarthy boy.

Lol, continue to cope. I have no agendas, unlike you, I simply accept every part of my genome and I am pointing out that SSA and north african admix blatantly exist in Portuguese, and other western iberians :thumb001: you stating that the average PT reference not having it individually come up as a component means absolutely nothing. How is it debatable that Taforalt is comprised of a SSA-like component? Because it's more of a ghost population? That doesn't make it not SSA-like.

But again it's a waste of time arguing with someone who didn't even know that the iberian genetic gradient falls east to west not north to south. I had to keep you in touch with this about 10 times now... you still have a hard time understanding this for some odd reason talking about north portugal being different from south. I advise you to look at Olalde's (2019) paper on the iberian genome. I am out of this conversation, it's a waste of my time.

[Marshall Theodore]

Lol, continue to cope. I have no agendas, unlike you, I simply accept every part of my genome and I am pointing out that SSA and north african admix blatantly exist in Portuguese, and other western iberians :thumb001: you stating that the average PT reference not having it individually come up as a component means absolutely nothing.

But again it's a waste of time arguing with someone who didn't even know that the iberian genetic gradient falls east to west not north to south. I had to keep you in touch with this about 10 times now... still have a hard time understanding this for some odd reason

Another user of the copium, that explains everything.

And yes, i have agendas, like 99% of this forum, so what?

[Marshall Theodore]

Lol, continue to cope. I have no agendas, unlike you, I simply accept every part of my genome and I am pointing out that SSA and north african admix
And mongoloid, regarding your obsession with hidden components.


That doesn't make it not SSA-like.

Neither being SSA-like.

[Jingle Bell]

you'd have to back up your claim instead of just saying what I say is "false". I am fully Portuguese and score a small amount of ssa. And so do many full Portuguese on this forum, and other forums from all regions, including far north. The Portuguese sample on G25 is a mystery, we don't know where it was obtained, when, or from who in specific. It looks pretty standard as most Portuguese plot around it even when people have SSA, and/or higher taforalt, or not, but either way your point has no barring on anything.

In terms of the celtic dna myth... Jingle Bells model is using components that have a large amount of overlap between each other. It doesn't prove anything in relation to the claim that west iberia has more celtic dna than east. We wouldn't be able to detect that by looking at those components. We just need a more elaborate study done to even substantiate any of these ideas, G25 cannot be taken too seriously in any capacity.

Bell Beakers, Iberia Neolithic and East Med dont rly overlap they are very far from each other
Idk if west iberia have more CELT dna but they have a bit more Central European related ancestry (Bell Beaker) than others iberians, thats it at least on g25 but i dont think its too far from the correct since g25 works good with components with a decent distance ( even better if u are using averages whih dont overlap unlike individuals), i dont know how use qpAdm so xd
But we know that mostly Celt tribes in Iberia were in West so , but i not a expert in that part some guy like ruderick will know better answer that question

[Jingle Bell]

Lol, continue to cope. I have no agendas, unlike you, I simply accept every part of my genome and I am pointing out that SSA and north african admix blatantly exist in Portuguese, and other western iberians :thumb001: you stating that the average PT reference not having it individually come up as a component means absolutely nothing. How is it debatable that Taforalt is comprised of a SSA-like component? Because it's more of a ghost population? That doesn't make it not SSA-like.

But again it's a waste of time arguing with someone who didn't even know that the iberian genetic gradient falls east to west not north to south. I had to keep you in touch with this about 10 times now... you still have a hard time understanding this for some odd reason talking about north portugal being different from south. I advise you to look at Olalde's (2019) paper on the iberian genome. I am out of this conversation, it's a waste of my time.

I dont remember were i sae but i read somewhere that Nigerians and Mota were using as proxy for ANA bcs they are 15% Taforalt and not bcs they were closer
Maybe ANA were just a very early ramification of humans that have similarities to Caucasians and Ssa who knows

[Varda]

Western Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs who settled in WS in Ottoman time from Old/East Herzegovina, Brda in smaller degree and with some native Serbs who converted to islam. For example around Prijepolje and Pljevlja among both Serbs and Muslims/Bosniaks is very common haplogroup I1-FGC22045 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/) which is Y DNA of Serbian Old Herzegovinian tribe Drobnjaci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci).
Eastern Sandžakians are lack of of Drobnjak Y DNA. But Dronjak paternal line is common among Bosniaks from eastern Bosnia and Cazinska Krajina in most western part of Bosnia. From one place near Bihać 5-6 Bosniaks are tested (all with different surnames) and all are Drobnjak I1-FGC22045.

Eastern Sandžakians mostly originated from Brda and northern Albania, in smaller degree from Zeta and Old/East Herzegovina and with few native islamized Serbs. Haplotypes of all Gheg Albanian tribes are known, and Y DNA of many Gheg tribes exist in eastern Sandžakians. Two strongest genetic lineages among eastern Sandžakians are Kuči and Kelmendi. Kuči came from Brda and Kelmendi from northern Albania. Both are E-V13, but of course different branches. Eastern Sandžakians have very high % of E-V13 due to Kuči and Kelmendi, but also Vasojevići and Bjelopavlići who are Brda tribes as Kuči. Second strongest hsplogroip in eastern Sandžakians is R1b-BY611 which came from Albanians. Eastern Sandžakians have only about 15% I2a-Din + R1a (basic Slavic haplos).
Autosomally eastern Sandžakians are more northern shifted than Albanians because they are not pure Albanians, but just partly. They have also Serbian/Montenegrin part of origin. Some people even think that eastern Sandžakians are created mostly from Albanian men and Serbian women. It is exaggeration, but they really have high amount or clear Albanian Y DNA. In eastern Sandžak still exist older people in rural areas who know Albanian language and whose descendants are declared Bosniaks https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=323
I have seen two Bosniak results from Rožaje and they score about 20% Baltic, that is not far away from Albanian average and it is same as average for Albanians from Montenegro. Rožaje, Plav and Gusinje are in the eastern part of eastern Sandžak, and Albanian input is the strongest in that places.
In eastern Sandžak live quite more Muslims/Bosniaks than in western. Eastern Sandžakians are mainstream Sandžakians.

Sandžakian wedding. Albanian 'shota' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shota_(dance) is there in the first half of video as in every Sandžakian gathering, and guy at 0:05 - 0:10 and 3:43 (with a drum) has a traditional Gheg Albanian costume with black Albanian eagle on his back.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM


Sandžakian song about Sandžak.


https://youtu.be/MLXmhmCZkdo

Pictures speak more than 1000 words...

From Rožaje in recent time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rožaje). Officially in Rožaje there is about 84% declared Bosniaks and only about 5% declared Albanians (mostly older people). Obvious among local 'Bosniaks' is strong pro-Albanian sentiment, because they know for own Albanian origin.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/88346942_334_2906099059232_304490512449011712-n-3-jpg.844509/

From Rožaje in 1972
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/90713543_3389052264444615_1507148472782946304_n-jpg.844504/


Two old photos from Pešter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter) where there is no officially Albanians today and majority of population are Bosniaks (Serbs are in minority there).
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/120073872_3902796483070188_8363471906804681614_n-jpg.844121/
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/99296960_353343600006150_4229102683786117120_n-2-jpg.844502/

[Atlantic Reptilian]

In early middle age Slavic people who settled in present day Bosnia were Serbs (in eastern and central part) and Croatians (in western part). There was no any Bosnians or Bosniaks in that time.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Slavic_tribes_in_the_7th_to_9th_century.jpg

Bosnia was named by river Bosna, not by some ethnic group. Bošnjani and Bošnjaci were just geographical term for inhabitants of Bosnia (as today Bosanci), nothing ethnic.
Well, this is indeed what ethnicity is.

Until 12th century Bosnia was just one geographical region in Serbia. In the second half of 12th century Bosnia also acquired a political dimension. In 1150. Joannes Kinnamos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kinnamos) wrote that river Drina divides Bosnia from the rest of Serbia, which means that Bosnia still was integral part of Serbia in 1150. Early Bosnia was formed in the regions where Serbs settled in early middle age - present day central, northeastern and part of eastern Bosnia. Modern western Bosnia which was populated by Croatians in early and high middle age is not proto/early Bosnia, it became part of Bosnia in the late middle age and even later.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/img_20230131_175753-jpg.1291136/

Well, the thing is, you can find bunch of stuff that speaks for your point, and I can find a bunch of stuff that speaks for my point. So this one thing doesn't really prove your point. If I had Serb or Croat ancestors I would've known. But it is well known that I have Slav ancestors (duh)

Pictures speak more than 1000 words...

From Rožaje in recent time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rožaje). Officially in Rožaje there is about 84% declared Bosniaks and only about 5% declared Albanians (mostly older people). Obvious among local 'Bosniaks' is strong pro-Albanian sentiment, because they know for own Albanian origin.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/88346942_334_2906099059232_304490512449011712-n-3-jpg.844509/

From Rožaje in 1972
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/90713543_3389052264444615_1507148472782946304_n-jpg.844504/


Two old photos from Pešter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter) where there is no officially Albanians today and majority of population are Bosniaks (Serbs are in minority there).
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/120073872_3902796483070188_8363471906804681614_n-jpg.844121/
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/99296960_353343600006150_4229102683786117120_n-2-jpg.844502/

Declaring yourself Bosniak and being Bosniak are two different things. One is about the census, the other is about heritage.

If they would be wearing such stuff in Bosna people would think they were celebrating something or just being funny.

But I have been told that those areas are more pro-Islam because of their neighbors strong nationalism, so I suppose it's understandable that they become more defensive.

[RogueState]

Well, this is indeed what ethnicity is.


Well, the thing is, you can find bunch of stuff that speaks for your point, and I can find a bunch of stuff that speaks for my point. So this one thing doesn't really prove your point. If I had Serb or Croat ancestors I would've known. But it is well known that I have Slav ancestors (duh)


Declaring yourself Bosniak and being Bosniak are two different things. One is about the census, the other is about heritage.

If they would be wearing such stuff in Bosna people would think they were celebrating something or just being funny.

But I have been told that those areas are more pro-Islam because of their neighbors strong nationalism, so I suppose it's understandable that they become more defensive.

We are more religious than Bosnians not because of neighbours' nationalism, in fact the "nationalist" pressure is much higher among Bosnian Serbs and Croats than in our area, but because we have a more patriarchal-conservative mentality coming from our ex-tribal family structure from Malisori+Brdjani. We share these conservative-macho values (see concepts of "Junastvo i Cojstvo" or "Besa" in Albanian) regardless religions (same as Orthodox Montenegrins or Catholic Albanians).

This explains why also we joke by saying Bosnians are weak with their women (you'll hear things like "zene njima vladaju"), and therefore the opposite from Bosnians that will say we are too hard/oppressive.

It's often highlander people across the world, due to isolation from "urban-open societies" and hostile nature, that developed these traits, often along Mafia-type organization (because the Mafia is just a modern criminal version of the patriarchal tribal structure). This is why in ex-YU, highlanders (Herzegovians in Croatia, Montenegrins in Belgrade, Sandzaklije in Sarajevo) are overrepresented in crimes but also business (because of strong latent tribal bonds and mutual aid).

[Jana]

This explains why also we joke by saying Bosnians are weak with their women (you'll hear things like "zene njima vladaju"), and therefore the opposite from Bosnians that will say we are too hard/oppressive.

Not all tho.

My firm former employee, an upper class muslim Sarajevan and notorious whoremonger and playboy just married practising muslim Bosniak woman who was virgin until marriage.
It was his wish. He had fun with whoever, but for mariage he desired practising muslim of his ethicity and a virgin.

[RogueState]

Not all tho.

My firm former employee, an upper class muslim Sarajevan and notorious whoremonger and playboy just married practising muslim Bosniak woman who was virgin until marriage.
It was his wish. He had fun with whoever, but for mariage he desired practising muslim of his ethicity and a virgin.

Yeah of course, there are many different individuals everywhere, I'm always talking in general sense

[Atlantic Reptilian]

We are more religious than Bosnians not because of neighbours' nationalism, in fact the "nationalist" pressure is much higher among Bosnian Serbs and Croats than in our area, but because we have a more patriarchal-conservative mentality coming from our ex-tribal family structure from Malisori+Brdjani. We share these conservative-macho values (see concepts of "Junastvo i Cojstvo" or "Besa" in Albanian) regardless religions (same as Orthodox Montenegrins or Catholic Albanians).

This explains why also we joke by saying Bosnians are weak with their women (you'll hear things like "zene njima vladaju"), and therefore the opposite from Bosnians that will say we are too hard/oppressive.
Thanks and good points. Makes sense.

I do get the impression that yes, Bosnian Serbs are more nationalist than say Serbs from Serbia. Although, of course, there are outliers.


It's often highlander people across the world, due to isolation from "urban-open societies" and hostile nature, that developed these traits, often along Mafia-type organization (because the Mafia is just a modern criminal version of the patriarchal tribal structure). This is why in ex-YU, highlanders (Herzegovians in Croatia, Montenegrins in Belgrade, Sandzaklije in Sarajevo) are overrepresented in crimes but also business (because of strong latent tribal bonds and mutual aid).
Interesting. Yeah, it's probably the highlanders that I'm thinking of. The behaviors seen among them would be considered rare where my ancestry is from xD

But what does it take to be a highlander culturally? How is it a thing, considering many people have lived on the countryside, in the more remote areas? You mentioned isolation and hostility, but what led to this then?

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Not all tho.

My firm former employee, an upper class muslim Sarajevan and notorious whoremonger and playboy just married practising muslim Bosniak woman who was virgin until marriage.
It was his wish. He had fun with whoever, but for mariage he desired practising muslim of his ethicity and a virgin.
That's just disgusting IMO (and the women might be thinking the same they just are a bit afraid of saying it out loudly). But I suppose in some cases women don't have much to say when they realize this (maybe it's too late and they realize this when they already have a family). BTW, did she know his previous behavior?

[Jana]

That's just disgusting IMO (and the women might be thinking the same they just are a bit afraid of saying it out loudly). But I suppose in some cases women don't have much to say when they realize this (maybe it's too late and they realize this when they already have a family). BTW, did she know his previous behavior?

By whore monger I don't mean literally by using whores services. What I mean by that is ladies man, man who is popular with women and had many girlfriends.

Yes, his current wife knew for his playboy behaviour for years and told him if he is to do anything with her he must offer a ring.. :)

[Hektor12]

It was his wish. He had fun with whoever, but for mariage he desired practising muslim of his ethicity and a virgin.

Muslims are same everywhere, dividing women into "sluts" and "wife materials". You can find billions of same guys here, Hollywood actor looking, doing everything for years, getting top class women easily and ending up marrying a below average but "virgin" woman.

*But how "virgin" those girls are at this time.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

By whore monger I don't mean literally by using whores services. What I mean by that is ladies man, man who is popular with women and had many girlfriends.

Yes, his current wife knew for his playboy behaviour for years and told him if he is to do anything with her he must offer a ring.. :)

I suppose that is better than what it could've been like. But I have a few relatives who were "popular" among the girls still they stayed faithful to their only girl/wife :) :hug2:
Like, cheating on each other is unheard of in my lineage. But some people, from other families, can be a bit less strict, from what I've heard.

Muslims are same everywhere, dividing women into "sluts" and "wife materials". You can find billions of same guys here, Hollywood actor looking, doing everything for years, getting top class women easily and ending up marrying a below average but "virgin" woman.

*But how "virgin" those girls are at this time.

It's safe to say that a man cannot expect a female to be clean/a virgin if the rules doesn't apply to him too. Like, think about it: why would a female want to be with a man who could possibly be carrying lots of diseases and such? It's unhygienic, and from what I have seen in Bosnia, they are extremists when it comes to hygiene (both women and men, and their children) xD
I don't know if it's only Islam, or if they like those practices of Islam and thus it suits them to use the religion as an argument? idk

[rothaer]

(...)

Bosnia was named by river Bosna, not by some ethnic group. Bošnjani and Bošnjaci were just geographical term for inhabitants of Bosnia (as today Bosanci), nothing ethnic. (...)

The onomast Jürgen Udolph stated that if you have related tribal names and river names the river names are regularly the origin of the name.

[Varda]

The onomast Jürgen Udolph stated that if you have related tribal names and river names the river names are regularly the origin of the name.

Name Bosna is probably of pre-Slavic origin, and Slavs later adopted that name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Bosnia#Etymology
https://hamdocamo.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/bih-linija-m.jpg

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Name Bosna is probably of pre-Slavic origin, and Slavs later adopted that name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Bosnia#Etymology
https://hamdocamo.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/bih-linija-m.jpg

From what I have noticed, towns can have names that are slavicized Latin names

[Chess]

Part of Sandzak, Montenigrin Sandzak, literally always had a native Albanian population actually and where many tribes formed like Kelmendi, Hoti etc




In 1330, the toponym Hotina Gora (mountains of Hoti) in the Plav and Gusinje regions on the Lim river basin in 1330. It is the first mention of the Albanian tribe Hoti.[9] This region is regarded as their original homeland before they moved southwards and settled to their historical territory. It is known that a medieval settlement was located in the territory of present-day Gusinje. Gusinje was mentioned as a caravan station on the Ragusa-Cattaro–Scutari–Peć route, in the 14th century




According to a 16th-century travel record by Antonio Bruni, the inhabitants of the Plav region are partly Albanian and partly Serbian, with a large proportion belonging to historical Albanian tribes such as the Piperi, Kuči, Kelmendi, and Bjelopavlići



Northern / Central Albania barely even had 2000 households in 1480's let alone the entire Albanian population to of supposedly come from there. Mainly movements that occurred in the 18th century when the area had a demographic growth. And they occurred mostly into other areas that had a large native Albanian population (Kosovo, Macedonia etc)

Nish (Naissus), Shtip (Stip), Shkup (Skopje), Shar, Ohrid, etc follow Albanian phonetic laws in Ancient Dardania. In Albania you have toponyms like Mat, Drin, Ishem, Drisht, Shkumbin, Buena, Shkoder, Lezha, in Montenegro Ulqin etc So Albanians lived in the same areas they live today.

[Varda]

Part of Sandzak, Montenigrin Sandzak, literally always had a native Albanian population actually and where many tribes formed like Kelmendi, Hoti etc





These Serbians and their aggressive propaganda.


Northern / Central Albania barely even had 2000 households in 1480's let alone the entire Albanian population to of supposedly come from there. Mainly movements that occurred in the 18th century when the area had a demographic growth. And they occurred mostly into other areas that had a large native Albanian population (Kosovo, Macedonia etc)

Nish (Naissus), Shtip (Stip), Shkup (Skopje), Shar, Ohrid, etc follow Albanian phonetic laws in Ancient Dardania. In Albania you have toponyms like Mat, Drin, Ishem, Drisht, Shkumbin, Buena, Shkoder, Lezha, in Montenegro Ulqin etc So Albanians lived in the same areas they live today.

Albanian tribes (mostly Kelmendi) settled in Sandžak in 18th century from northern Albania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusinje#History

[Varda]

From what I have noticed, towns can have names that are slavicized Latin names

Which towns exactly?

[rothaer]

Name Bosna is probably of pre-Slavic origin, and Slavs later adopted that name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Bosnia#Etymology
https://hamdocamo.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/bih-linija-m.jpg

Yes.

Water names in general are considered the most "conservative" category of names.

[Jana]

In early middle age Slavic people who settled in present day Bosnia were Serbs (in eastern and central part) and Croatians (in western part).

Bosniaks from central and northeastern Bosnia are furthest from Serbs genetically. They are much closer to Croats but on average they are even more Slavic than Croats and are approaching Carpathian Slavs like Rusyns.
it doens't matter who settled what due to later migrations from Slavonia, Lika, Serbia, Montenegro...

[Varda]

Yes.

Water names in general are considered the most "conservative" category of names.

I wonder is there some connection in origin between river and region/country Bosna in the western Balkans and ridge Bosna in Bulgaria/Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosna_(ridge)

There is a theory about Thracian origin of name Bosna.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Which towns exactly?

I can't find it right now (it was a long time I read about it in the books) but I think if you pick some town and go back in its history, you may see that it's name maybe in the past name with the ending -cum

[Varda]

Bosniaks from central and northeastern Bosnia are furthest from Serbs genetically. They are much closer to Croats but on average they are even more Slavic than Croats and are approaching Carpathian Slavs like Rusyns.
it doens't matter who settled what due to later migrations from Slavonia, Lika, Serbia, Montenegro...

Serbs from the early middle age were not same as modern Serbs, same goes for early medieval Croatians and modern Croatians. Bosniaks from central and northeastern Bosnian might be genetically closer to early medieval Serbs than modern Serbs. It's nothing weird. Slovaks and Poles are probably genetically closer to early medieval Croatians than modern Croatians.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Yes.

Water names in general are considered the most "conservative" category of names.
May I ask, what do you mean when you say conservative when it comes to names?

[rothaer]

I wonder is there some connection in origin between river and region/country Bosna in the western Balkans and ridge Bosna in Bulgaria/Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosna_(ridge)

There is a theory about Thracian origin of name Bosna.

After the name seems somewhat specific to me and also names regularly show up repeatedly within a language area (just think about Slavic names!) I very much guess so.

As for the source language and the possibly very high age of such names I'd be careful with an assignment. I'd say it's impossible to determine before we know the etymology.

[rothaer]

May I ask, what do you mean when you say conservative when it comes to names?

That they remain (at least in the word stem) for very long also when people come and go and languages shift.

[Jana]

Serbs from the early middle age were not same as modern Serbs, same goes for early medieval Croatians and modern Croatians. Bosniaks from central and northeastern Bosnian might be genetically closer to early medieval Serbs than modern Serbs. It's nothing weird. Slovaks and Poles are probably genetically closer to early medieval Croatians than modern Croatians.

They are not tho. Those in NE are descendants of Slavonians and partly people from Serbia. Obv Slavonians were much biugger influence due to their genetics.
Central Bosnia was never massively settled by Serbs unless you mean Sarajevo which is more to the east and it always had irrelevant Serb population.

Bosniaks are not Serbs and are notably closer to Croats, but they are not Croats either because they are different than both.
only those in SE BiH and partly in NW are closer to Serbs.

Overall they cluster differenty and that's all that matter plus they are muslim and nobody sane would care to claim them.

Rest is outdated nationalist blabber.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

That they remain (at least in the word stem) for very long also when people come and go and languages shift.

Yes. That is what I have noticed indeed

They are not tho. Those in NE are descendants of Slavonians and partly people from Serbia. Obv Slavonians were much biugger influence due to their genetics.
Central Bosnia was never massively settled by Serbs unless you mean Sarajevo which is more to the east and it always had irrelevant Serb population.

Bosniaks are not Serbs and are notably closer to Croats, but they are not Croats either because they are different than both.
only those in SE BiH and partly in NW are closer to Serbs.

Overall they cluster differenty and that's all that matter
True

plus they are muslim and nobody sane would care to claim them.
Not relevant.

They can only be claimed by their own population xD

[rothaer]

(...)
Not relevant.

They can only be claimed by their own population xD

And by (insane) Swedes, ofc. :p

[Atlantic Reptilian]

And by (insane) Swedes, ofc. :p

what do you mean? xD :p

[Chess]

It's the opposite more so. People kept saying that Sanjak Muslims are Slavified Albanian migrants and that the original Rashka Serbs moved to Vojvodina. This is partly true, the original Rashka Serbs left for Vojvodina, but Sanjak Muslims don't have Albanian roots. They score very close to southern Serbs and appear to be descended from Montenegrin/Herzegovinan Serb migrants that converted to Islam. There's also a bit of a difference between Muslims of West Sanjak and East Sanjak. Those of West Sanjak are 100% Serb while those of East Sanjak may have some Albanian (although mainly Serb still).

No, Vojvodina Serbs are not descendants of people from Rashka but mostly refugees from Nish and Central Serbia:



According to Malcolm, largest number of refugees were from the Nis region, Morava Valley and Belgrade area.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs


I suggest to come up with statistics that prove your claims such as tax registers that prove these areas were depopulated.


The Albanians in Montenigrin part are not migrants but historically inhabited by Albanian tribes like Hoti, Kelmendi etc
Kuqi tribe is also Albanian in origin. The Albanians in Montenegro came under Slavic influence so as a result also carried Slavic names, we can see this for the Kuqi tribal territory.


Rest of Sandzak certainly never had much of an Albanian population from what I know nor were there that many movements into the plains from the Malsi.

[Varda]

No, Vojvodina Serbs are not descendants of people from Rashka but mostly refugees from Nish and Central Serbia:

They are descendants of Serbian settlers from 15th to 18th century from many regions south of Sava and Danube: Šumadija, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Raška, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Shopluk, eastern Serbia etc.

Vuk Isaković Serbian military commander in Austrian service in present day Vojvodina had roots from Shar mountain in southern Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Isaković

Serbian nobleman Stefan Štiljanović in Hungarian service in present day Vojvodina and Slavonia was from Paštrovići in coastal Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Štiljanović

Pavle Bakić the last Serbian titular despot in Hungary (modern Vojvodina) was from Šumadija https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavle_Bakić

Vojvodinian Serbs have tons of matches in Y DNA with both Dinaric Serbs and southern/Kosovo Serbs 300-500 years in the past.
For example today is published result of Serb from Bačka (Vojvodina) with surname Tomić (Томић) whose surname in his village is recorded in 1772, and he carry haplotype of medieval Herzegovinian clan Mirilovići (Мириловићи) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=6970.msg184370#msg184370
Mirilovići were Serbian medieval clan in vlach social status in eastern Herzegovina where they are first time recorded in 1366, they lived in this area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirilovići

One of the most important Serbian figures in Vojvodina in the last 300 years Stefan Stratimirović also had Herzegovinian origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Stratimirović#Early_life_and_appoinment
One member of family Stratimirović from Novi Sad was tested few years ago, he belong to R1a-YP4278 and has matches with few Serbs from Trebinje area in Herzegovina.

[RogueState]

Thanks and good points. Makes sense.

I do get the impression that yes, Bosnian Serbs are more nationalist than say Serbs from Serbia. Although, of course, there are outliers.


Interesting. Yeah, it's probably the highlanders that I'm thinking of. The behaviors seen among them would be considered rare where my ancestry is from xD

But what does it take to be a highlander culturally? How is it a thing, considering many people have lived on the countryside, in the more remote areas? You mentioned isolation and hostility, but what led to this then?

Well in our Balkan context, it is well known ethnographical/anthropological feature : the dichotomy between highlander and lowlander mentality.

Highlanders are stereotypically patriarchal, conservative, macho, with high sense of pride and honor (čast), keeping his promises (reč) but also seen as unstable, violent, rebellious and power-seeking. They were romanticized as "hajduci" in the Ottoman times.

Lowlanders are stereotypically liberal, submissive, servile, unable to rebel, pragmatic (no "ideals" beyond direct material needs, this is why they submit to any authority) and egoistic (no "tribal" solidarity). They were the "raja" social class in the Ottoman times.

[Mingle]

Western Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs who settled in WS in Ottoman time from Old/East Herzegovina, Brda in smaller degree and with some native Serbs who converted to islam. For example around Prijepolje and Pljevlja among both Serbs and Muslims/Bosniaks is very common haplogroup I1-FGC22045 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/) which is Y DNA of Serbian Old Herzegovinian tribe Drobnjaci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci).
Eastern Sandžakians are lack of of Drobnjak Y DNA. But Dronjak paternal line is common among Bosniaks from eastern Bosnia and Cazinska Krajina in most western part of Bosnia. From one place near Bihać 5-6 Bosniaks are tested (all with different surnames) and all are Drobnjak I1-FGC22045.

Eastern Sandžakians mostly originated from Brda and northern Albania, in smaller degree from Zeta and Old/East Herzegovina and with few native islamized Serbs. Haplotypes of all Gheg Albanian tribes are known, and Y DNA of many Gheg tribes exist in eastern Sandžakians. Two strongest genetic lineages among eastern Sandžakians are Kuči and Kelmendi. Kuči came from Brda and Kelmendi from northern Albania. Both are E-V13, but of course different branches. Eastern Sandžakians have very high % of E-V13 due to Kuči and Kelmendi, but also Vasojevići and Bjelopavlići who are Brda tribes as Kuči. Second strongest hsplogroip in eastern Sandžakians is R1b-BY611 which came from Albanians. Eastern Sandžakians have only about 15% I2a-Din + R1a (basic Slavic haplos).
Autosomally eastern Sandžakians are more northern shifted than Albanians because they are not pure Albanians, but just partly. They have also Serbian/Montenegrin part of origin. Some people even think that eastern Sandžakians are created mostly from Albanian men and Serbian women. It is exaggeration, but they really have high amount or clear Albanian Y DNA. In eastern Sandžak still exist older people in rural areas who know Albanian language and whose descendants are declared Bosniaks https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=323
I have seen two Bosniak results from Rožaje and they score about 20% Baltic, that is not far away from Albanian average and it is same as average for Albanians from Montenegro. Rožaje, Plav and Gusinje are in the eastern part of eastern Sandžak, and Albanian input is the strongest in that places.
In eastern Sandžak live quite more Muslims/Bosniaks than in western. Eastern Sandžakians are mainstream Sandžakians.

Sandžakian wedding. Albanian 'shota' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shota_(dance) is there in the first half of video as in every Sandžakian gathering, and guy at 0:05 - 0:10 and 3:43 (with a drum) has a traditional Gheg Albanian costume with black Albanian eagle on his back.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM


Sandžakian song about Sandžak.


https://youtu.be/MLXmhmCZkdo

I know about Albanian influence in eastern Sanjak, but I think you're still overrating it. They're probably something like 3/4 Montenegrin Serb 1/4 Albanian. Or you think it's the other way around and they're 3/4 Albanian instead?

[Mingle]

No, Vojvodina Serbs are not descendants of people from Rashka but mostly refugees from Nish and Central Serbia:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs


I suggest to come up with statistics that prove your claims such as tax registers that prove these areas were depopulated.


The Albanians in Montenigrin part are not migrants but historically inhabited by Albanian tribes like Hoti, Kelmendi etc
Kuqi tribe is also Albanian in origin. The Albanians in Montenegro came under Slavic influence so as a result also carried Slavic names, we can see this for the Kuqi tribal territory.


Rest of Sandzak certainly never had much of an Albanian population from what I know nor were there that many movements into the plains from the Malsi.

I didn't say that most Vojvodina Serbs are descended from Rashka Serbs, but that most Rashka Serbs migrated to Vojvodina. The region could've gotten swamped by Serbs from other regions afterwards, that doesn't contradict what I said.

[Chess]

Dude, there are literally no documents that support claims about massive refugees from Southern Balkans. Most refugees came from areas close to Vojvodina.
Refugees who went long distances either died of hunger or diseases. People usually fled into mountains then would return later to their homes after the war finished. It baffles me how people support a version when it is not even supported by any documents. Gora region still had it's Slavic population post 1690, and Kosova still had it's Slavic and Albanian population. That is not to say there were no war losses on both sides, there were.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Well in our Balkan context, it is well known ethnographical/anthropological feature : the dichotomy between highlander and lowlander mentality.

Highlanders are stereotypically patriarchal, conservative, macho, with high sense of pride and honor (čast), keeping his promises (reč) but also seen as unstable, violent, rebellious and power-seeking. They were romanticized as "hajduci" in the Ottoman times.

Lowlanders are stereotypically liberal, submissive, servile, unable to rebel, pragmatic (no "ideals" beyond direct material needs, this is why they submit to any authority) and egoistic (no "tribal" solidarity). They were the "raja" social class in the Ottoman times.

Makes sense, but I think in some populations it's also a bit more like a gray-zone. For instance, even among my Lowlander relatives, they still rebelled against anyone (during WW2) because they realized that the factions would just come and "colonize" their lands (take what they want) and leave nothing to the people. Like Tuzla regionalism has become the modern way of dealing with this. Normally, the capital would get all the taxes, but now people (of Tuzla) want the taxes to stay inside the canton and go to the different parts of the region. I think only in this way can people who actually want to make a difference (as opposed to those in power) succeed.

But as for the stereotypical Highlander mentality, it seems very uncommon and is assumed to be typical of i.e. Montenegro (but also some Serbs like the maffia). But it's usually frowned on and considered backwards/uncivilized. But there can indeed be found lots of smart people among Highlanders too.

Interestingly, in Lowlander areas, whilst people have a decent awareness of their relatives, I doubt it's because of some nepotism but rather because people wanted to know who was and wasn't a relative in case of getting married, and as a consequence it lead to people knowing that their coworker or boss happened to be their relative.
Putting this in contrast, it wouldn't be acceptable for Swedes to have it like this, regardless if something wrong is being done or not. Which I think speaks for Swedes being maybe more nepotistic if they are given the opportunity. But nepotism isn't really interesting for my relatives because they think the right way is to "climb in the hierarchy" if you will, is by getting more educated, performing better etc.

[RogueState]

Makes sense, but I think in some populations it's also a bit more like a gray-zone. For instance, even among my Lowlander relatives, they still rebelled against anyone (during WW2) because they realized that the factions would just come and "colonize" their lands (take what they want) and leave nothing to the people. Like Tuzla regionalism has become the modern way of dealing with this. Normally, the capital would get all the taxes, but now people (of Tuzla) want the taxes to stay inside the canton and go to the different parts of the region. I think only in this way can people who actually want to make a difference (as opposed to those in power) succeed.

But as for the stereotypical Highlander mentality, it seems very uncommon and is assumed to be typical of i.e. Montenegro (but also some Serbs like the maffia). But it's usually frowned on and considered backwards/uncivilized. But there can indeed be found lots of smart people among Highlanders too.

Interestingly, in Lowlander areas, whilst people have a decent awareness of their relatives, I doubt it's because of some nepotism but rather because people wanted to know who was and wasn't a relative in case of getting married, and as a consequence it lead to people knowing that their coworker or boss happened to be their relative.
Putting this in contrast, it wouldn't be acceptable for Swedes to have it like this, regardless if something wrong is being done or not. Which I think speaks for Swedes being maybe more nepotistic if they are given the opportunity. But nepotism isn't really interesting for my relatives because they think the right way is to "climb in the hierarchy" if you will, is by getting more educated, performing better etc.

Sweden and Northwest Europe is anthropologically very different from the Balkans, so differences goes beyond the internal highlander/lowlander divide I highlighted. They are individualist societies but also very feminine (in the sense opposite of patriarchal structure), where individual freedom is highly praised (which means a disdain for "tribal"/"familial" privilege), very egalitarian values between genders , and the pro-feminine bias create a mentality of cooperation rather than competition, non-aggressive/assertive behavior in the workplace and social hierarchy, ...

The irony is that, not only physically, but in terms of anthropological structure, they are the complete opposite of the ultra patriarchal-tribal Muslim Somalian or Afghan or Kurdish culture (last both groups having the honor codes and values of highlanders I explained earlier). The Balkans being somewhere in between in this patriarchal/tribal/conservative VS feminist/individualist/liberal continuum.

This kind of social engineering, i.e. putting together people so drastically different, is fascinating (from a theoritical point of view) but it's really playing the sorcerer's apprentice

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Sweden and Northwest Europe is anthropologically very different from the Balkans, so differences goes beyond the internal highlander/lowlander divide I highlighted. They are individualist societies but also very feminine (in the sense opposite of patriarchal structure), where individual freedom is highly praised (which means a disdain for "tribal"/"familial" privilege), very egalitarian values between genders , and the pro-feminine bias create a mentality of cooperation rather than competition, non-aggressive/assertive behavior in the workplace and social hierarchy, ...

The irony is that, not only physically, but in terms of anthropological structure, they are the complete opposite of the ultra patriarchal-tribal Muslim Somalian or Afghan or Kurdish culture (last both groups having the honor codes and values of highlanders I explained earlier). The Balkans being somewhere in between in this patriarchal/tribal/conservative VS feminist/individualist/liberal continuum.

This kind of social engineering, i.e. putting together people so drastically different, is fascinating (from a theoritical point of view) but it's really playing the sorcerer's apprentice

True. My comparison with Swedes was just to give a more detailed view of it not necessarily being about nepotism even if coworkers might be more related to you.

But I wouldn't say they are 100% non-aggressive/assertive since they can be passive-aggressive and competitive about women to a very creepy degree, but in a "nice guy" way, which is even worse in my opinion, but maybe that because I'm so used to seeing this behavior here.

[RogueState]

Pictures speak more than 1000 words...

From Rožaje in recent time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rožaje). Officially in Rožaje there is about 84% declared Bosniaks and only about 5% declared Albanians (mostly older people). Obvious among local 'Bosniaks' is strong pro-Albanian sentiment, because they know for own Albanian origin.
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/88346942_334_2906099059232_304490512449011712-n-3-jpg.844509/

From Rožaje in 1972
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/90713543_3389052264444615_1507148472782946304_n-jpg.844504/


Two old photos from Pešter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter) where there is no officially Albanians today and majority of population are Bosniaks (Serbs are in minority there).
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/120073872_3902796483070188_8363471906804681614_n-jpg.844121/
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/99296960_353343600006150_4229102683786117120_n-2-jpg.844502/

Recent thread from 23andme reddit sub with "Bosniaks" results :
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/10uq7rc/14_bosniaks_on_eurogenes_k13_model/

They put in the end 3 results from my region : no other Bosniak or Serb regional group in the top 10 populations, despite being located in Serbia...
https://i.imgur.com/LdML4qL.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/HqPN7rZ.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/KyvJgPk.jpg

As you know very well Varda, that whole "Bosniak ethnicity" narrative was invented and developed after 1993, and is forced by some opportunist (and hypocritical) politicians

But blood and real folklore don't lie, for instance, only crazy liar can believe this is "Bosniak" folklore... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7BuAuPwmg

[Varda]

Recent thread from 23andme reddit sub with "Bosniaks" results :
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/10uq7rc/14_bosniaks_on_eurogenes_k13_model/

They put in the end 3 results from my region : no other Bosniak or Serb regional group in the top 10 populations, despite being located in Serbia...
https://i.imgur.com/LdML4qL.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/HqPN7rZ.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/KyvJgPk.jpg

As you know very well Varda, that whole "Bosniak ethnicity" narrative was invented and developed after 1993, and is forced by some opportunist (and hypocritical) politicians

But blood and real folklore don't lie, for instance, only crazy liar can believe this is "Bosniak" folklore... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7BuAuPwmg

:thumb001:

[Chess]

This is some interesting stuff from a paper reagrding E-V13 and it's ancestor E-L618 in the Balkans:




Its absence in Bronze Age southeastern Europe (n=107) is in remarkable contrast with its ubiquity in the present day, leading us to hypothesize that either it did exist there prior to our sampling but in a specific region from which we have no samples or it arose elsewhere and migrated to southeastern Europe just prior to the earliest sampled individuals. The parent node of E-V13 is E-L618 which is called for an earlier sample from the Lengyel culture in Hungary which was ancestral for the V13 SNP (I1900 4797-4619 calBCE; E-L618(xE-BY64249,E-V13)) and which has an estimated TMRCA of 7,800 years BP. Thus, the evidence appears consistent with a scenario in which E-L618 Y-chromosomes entered Europe during the Neolithic and EV13 representing a remarkably successful lineage within this group that had not yet achieved prominence during the Bronze Age, but had begun to do so by the Iron Age.

[R3d0N]

Albanian tribes (mostly Kelmendi) settled in Sandžak in 18th century from northern Albania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusinje#History

Yes, mostly Kelmendi and some other tribes. Nowhere does that indicate that were no Albanians in these areas prior to these settlements which there in fact were. There were newer inhabitants that came and there were older inhabitants. Same thing with Slavic families. Many Slavic families moved into Kosovo too. In the early Otoman period most new arrivals into Kosovo had Slavic names. In the Nahije of Pec overwhelming majority of new arrivals had Slavic names. There were also Orthodox Slavs that settled Kosovo in the 18th century and Vlachs from Greece. There were also Circassians, Gypsies etc etc.



They are descendants of Serbian settlers from 15th to 18th century from many regions south of Sava and Danube: Šumadija, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Raška, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Shopluk, eastern Serbia etc.

Vuk Isaković Serbian military commander in Austrian service in present day Vojvodina had roots from Shar mountain in southern Kosovo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Isaković

Serbian nobleman Stefan Štiljanović in Hungarian service in present day Vojvodina and Slavonia was from Paštrovići in coastal Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Štiljanović

Pavle Bakić the last Serbian titular despot in Hungary (modern Vojvodina) was from Šumadija https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavle_Bakić

Vojvodinian Serbs have tons of matches in Y DNA with both Dinaric Serbs and southern/Kosovo Serbs 300-500 years in the past.
For example today is published result of Serb from Bačka (Vojvodina) with surname Tomić (Томић) whose surname in his village is recorded in 1772, and he carry haplotype of medieval Herzegovinian clan Mirilovići (Мириловићи) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=6970.msg184370#msg184370
Mirilovići were Serbian medieval clan in vlach social status in eastern Herzegovina where they are first time recorded in 1366, they lived in this area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirilovići

One of the most important Serbian figures in Vojvodina in the last 300 years Stefan Stratimirović also had Herzegovinian origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Stratimirović#Early_life_and_appoinment
One member of family Stratimirović from Novi Sad was tested few years ago, he belong to R1a-YP4278 and has matches with few Serbs from Trebinje area in Herzegovina.

This is because there were some Kosovo Serbs that did go to Vojvodina. And there were even some Albanians that managed to escape there. The claim here is that all Vojvodina Serbs are supposed to be Kosovo Serbs including 40k regugees which is not even the case. Nobody is denying that were some refugees from Kosovo which there in fact were. But these were mainly people from Eastern Kosovo that did have a large Slavic population. There cannot be a mass exodus of another population from a region where they don't even make up the majority. Gora region did not have depopulation but kept most of it's Slavic population. Western Kosova had mostly an Albanian population. 40k refugees gathered in Belgrade, they came from all Serb inhabited lands, some of these came from Kosovo too that had managed to escape.


Gorani match Albanians by Y-DNA too.

[Tauromachos]

- Dorian invasion
- That the already Greek speaking and writing(Linear B) Mycenaeans were not related to the Minoans
who wrote in pre Greek Linear A where its still unknown how much this language relates to Greek.

[Beowulf]

The Iberian Peninsula being genetically homogeneous when in fact has more internal diversity than all of Northwestern Europe.

i see more diverse genetically than Northern Italy and southern Italy ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7ZqCJJvJ/Screenshot-2023-03-21-12-47-56.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Beowulf]

First of all that PCA lacks several Iberian populations like Basques.
Second, everyone knows the Italian Peninsula is very heterogeneous so that's not a myth.

there are more PCA

https://i.postimg.cc/D00q4CSZ/pgen-1003925-g005.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Beowulf]

This PCA shows that Iberian intravariability is greater than the one between Ireland and Russia. At least based on euclidean distances.
Thanks for proving my point.

do u have any G25 Iberian samples that i could use se we can do a better PCA

[Smeagol]

Far more of what old physical anthropologists like Coon wrote has been confirmed by genetics than debunked.

[DraviXi99]

i see more diverse genetically than Northern Italy and southern Italy ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7ZqCJJvJ/Screenshot-2023-03-21-12-47-56.png (https://postimages.org/)

I still think there's more of genetic diversity in north italy.

[Cassidy1234]

Far more of what old physical anthropologists like Coon wrote has been confirmed by genetics than debunked.

Indeed. West Eurasians or Caucasoids do exist as a racial group, but obviously they're not homogenous or anything. Same can be said about Europeans as well.