Myths debunked by genetic studies.

[Nausevar]

What are some myths commonly held, or theories that you personally believed in, that were busted by modern genetic research?
Some classics are:
-ancient greeks and romans were very different from their modern counterparts. Greeks used to be more nordic, with more blondes.
-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism
-northern italians are not that genetically different from central europeans thanks to lombard admixture (they are despite their geographic closeness to Austria and Slovenia; lombards were a small tribe that got swallowed up by the natives)
-Slavs were already in the balkans before the fall of the roman empire
-South Slavs are overwhelmigly natives only linguistically slavicized
-haplogroup I2a2-din wasn't brought by the slavs from Ukraine
-Albanians came from the Caucasus. This myth originates from the fact that romans called Alba, Albania mountainous places such as Scotland and Georgia. In some maps you see the name "Albania" over modern-day Georgia.
-Turks are islamized Greeks
-Blondism in Sicily is correlated with norman ancestry

[Beowulf]

deleted

reason: misunderstood the OP question lol

[dviz]

What are some myths commonly held, or theories that you personally believed in, that were busted by modern genetic research?
Some classics are:
-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism


Actually, genetic studies show that Ashkenazis are mostly descendants of Roman settlers in Judaea who converted to Judaism, assimilated some locals into the group, and later migrated back to Europe.

[vader]

That north iberians are pure Celtic, white people with very high incidences of blonde hair and/ or blue eyes. And the south is full of brown moorish, gyspy, Arab, etc. remnants.

^ that is a pure ironic comment by the way. I doubt people actually think that but it still has merit as a legitimate myth.

Truth: the differences in genetics in Iberia majorly flow east to west not north to south. For example, a person from alto Minho nearby Galicia won't be genetically or much physically different to someone from Faro on the coastal most southern point. Same applies to most of Spain... someone in Huelva or Sevilla genetically are quite similar to Leonese, Valencians close to Catalonians. There may be more possibility for tiny extraneous traces in the very south of anywhere but not enough to really even question differences at all on ethnic grounds

Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav4040

[Snake_]

That Albanians are 100% Illyrian and modern Greeks 100% Ancient Greek, there is also other admixture in both populations. Same can be said for many European populations in general.

[PaganPoet]

It is sometimes said native people below the Rhine who are darker have significant Spanish ancestry.
Apparently this is debunked: https://www.ibe.upf-csic.es/news/-/asset_publisher/PXTgqZXxlocA/content/id/147014443/maximized

[Gallop]

In general everything, because nothing was what it seemed, as often happens in different topics throughout life.

[Beowulf]

That north iberians are pure Celtic, white people with very high incidences of blonde hair and/ or blue eyes. And the south is full of brown moorish, gyspy, Arab, etc. remnants.

^ that is a pure ironic comment by the way. I doubt people actually think that but it still has merit as a legitimate myth.

Truth: the differences in genetics in Iberia majorly flow east to west not north to south. For example, a person from alto Minho nearby Galicia won't be genetically or much physically different to someone from Faro on the coastal most southern point. Same applies to most of Spain... someone in Huelva or Sevilla genetically are quite similar to Leonese, Valencians close to Catalonians. There may be more possibility for tiny extraneous traces in the very south of anywhere but not enough to really even question differences at all on ethnic grounds

Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav4040

yeah mostly all iberians are the Celtiberian type with minor mix of other things Iberia is very homogenous

[JohnnyP]

That Ancient Macedonians were not a Greeks.

[Jingle Bell]

That north iberians are pure Celtic, white people with very high incidences of blonde hair and/ or blue eyes. And the south is full of brown moorish, gyspy, Arab, etc. remnants.

^ that is a pure ironic comment by the way. I doubt people actually think that but it still has merit as a legitimate myth.

Truth: the differences in genetics in Iberia majorly flow east to west not north to south. For example, a person from alto Minho nearby Galicia won't be genetically or much physically different to someone from Faro on the coastal most southern point. Same applies to most of Spain... someone in Huelva or Sevilla genetically are quite similar to Leonese, Valencians close to Catalonians. There may be more possibility for tiny extraneous traces in the very south of anywhere but not enough to really even question differences at all on ethnic grounds

Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav4040

Yeah before i get in genetics i alr saw many videos saying that North Iberians were Celts, but when i start studing i saw that first mostly iberians descends from Northern settlers and that the genetic diference is iberia btw populations is very low at a country nivel and just varies a bit in a individual level, like a Galician can have 15% NA while a Murcian 2% NA , the regions overlap a lot

[Jingle Bell]

Before i get in genetics and history i thought that the true Celtics were the ones from British isles just bcs they are speakers of Celtic languages, while in reality Iberians, Frenchs, Alpine Europeans and North Italians are Celtic as Uk if not more (Genetically speaking)

[Mingle]

Romans having 0 genetic impact in any ex-Roman colonies.

Iraqi Arabs being Arabized Assyrians/Akkadians and Khuzestani Arabs being Arabized Persians when the majority of their ancestries is Peninsular Arab. Arabization in general was very overplayed and the genetic impact very underplayed similar to the examples you gave. Arabs had a genetic impact in modern Arabic-speaking lands with the least impact being in the Maghreb. I think only Christian Levantines would have 0 ancestry from Peninsular Arabs of the Islamic Era.

Speakers of Native American languages having no European ancestry.

It seems that the popular thought used to be that invading forces will always be too small compared to locals that previously inhabited the region and that all instances of "-ization/-ification" were simply just linguistic and that cause the invaders were outnumbered, they would assimilate without making any genetic impact. Not like this is impossible (e.g. Hungary), but it's rare that a group colonizes a region without making a genetic impact.

[Jingle Bell]

Source please?


Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 0.5463% / 0.00546261 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
26.0 Old_Med
9.0 Mycenaean
5.0 Anatolian
4.4 Baltic
4.2 Urnfeild_and_Tumulus
3.6 North_Africa


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 0.7277% / 0.00727722 | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.0 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
26.6 Old_Med
13.6 Mycenaean
5.8 Baltic
5.4 Urnfeild_and_Tumulus
1.4 North_Africa
1.2 East_Asia


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 0.5988% / 0.00598751 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.4 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
23.8 Old_Med
14.6 Mycenaean
6.6 Scrubnaya
5.4 Baltic
1.2 East_Asia

Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.4311% / 0.01431085 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 SouthernLevant_BA
34.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
23.8 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.8115% / 0.01811545 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.6 GRC_Logkas_MBA
35.4 SouthernLevant_BA
28.0 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA
1.0 ARM_Areni_C


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.5455% / 0.01545532 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.0 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA
37.6 SouthernLevant_BA
24.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.4 ARM_Areni_C

https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/108bsw1/ashkenazi_periodical_ancient_ancestry_background/

Askhenazi results:
https://i.imgur.com/UoqpSrt.png

Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.3915% / 0.01391462
56.0 Ancient_Levant
25.0 Italic
10.2 Germanic_Nordic
8.8 Balto-Slavic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.6999% / 0.01699854
53.0 Ancient_Levant
20.2 Italic
13.6 Balto-Slavic
13.2 Germanic_Nordic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.5016% / 0.01501638
55.0 Ancient_Levant
17.4 Germanic_Nordic
16.0 Italic
11.6 Balto-Slavic

+ Imperial Roman samples:


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.1638% / 0.01163818
35.6 Greco-Roman
31.0 Ancient_Levant
15.8 Germanic_Nordic
10.8 Balto-Slavic
6.8 Italic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.3418% / 0.01341784
39.2 Greco-Roman
28.0 Ancient_Levant
13.8 Balto-Slavic
9.8 Italic
9.2 Germanic_Nordic


Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.1122% / 0.01112197
35.4 Ancient_Levant
32.8 Greco-Roman
17.0 Italic
9.2 Balto-Slavic
5.6 Germanic_Nordic

So yeah jews are 40% - 60% Levant IA/BA + 25% - 40% S. European IA (These S. Euros were mostly Romans and Greeks) + 10% - 15% Others like Germanic related

[dviz]

Source please?
On the origin of EE Ashkenazis, see this paper , for instance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/

[gixajo]

Basques are not related with Finnish, Georgians or Berber people, and are not aliens genetically from outside the Iberian peninsula, and although they have a genetic specifity that is basically they have had less "foreign" genetic input since later Bronze Age/Early Iron Age than other Iberian populations, are genetically an Iberian group.

The Jewish genetic input is practically non-existent in modern Spanish populations, and the inheritance of Muslim control of the peninsula is much lower than previously assumed, and it cannot be distinguished from the genetic heritage of those same peoples before their Islamization, that is to say that it was present long before the year 711 in many parts of the peninsula.

The swarthy Irish are not swarthy because they are descended from shipwrecked men of the Armada Invencible.

The Galicians do have similar cultural aspects to some populations of the British islands, but they do not share much genetically with them.

[vader]

Basques are not related with Finnish, Georgians or Berber people, and are not aliens genetically from outside the Iberian peninsula, and although they have a genetic specifity that is basically they have had less "foreign" genetic input since later Bronze Age/Early Iron Age than other Iberian populations, are genetically an Iberian group.

The Jewish genetic input is practically non-existent in modern Spanish populations, and the inheritance of Muslim control of the peninsula is much lower than previously assumed, and it cannot be distinguished from the genetic heritage of those same peoples before their Islamization, that is to say that it was present long before the year 711 in many parts of the peninsula.

The swarthy Irish are not swarthy because they are descended from shipwrecked men of the Armada Invencible.

The Galicians will have similar cultural aspects to some populations of the British islands, but they do not share much genetically with them.

Despite all of these being myths they will continue as truth by the assumptions of 99.99% of people. That is until people delve into each subject to learn in fact that assumption was wrong and enough to realize life is more complicated than just historical events we can read. DNA can solve some of these previously assumed ideas... Ie. Moorish impact probably not as big of an impact as previously assumed ---- based on more recent conclusion bc Berber admix found in late roman era before 711 in central and south Portuguese. Some even showing modern levels of dna on all accounts. Hypothesis? Roman elite used nafri slaves for large mining enterprises on the rich western coast from Galicia to South Portugal + southern Iberia trade with the geographically close amazigh. Same applied to Spanish samples, although more would paint the picture fuller. Another one, Irish being darker due to Spanish... Ye no, phenotype is complex and among even the purest of tribes lots of coloring and look differences exist even in the far isolated north- fact of life.

:thumb001:

[Varda]

- That Balkanites have a lot of Turkish blood (there is no Turkish blood in Balkanites, except in Balkan Turks of course but they are not mainstream Balkanites)

- That South Slavs are slavicized Balkanites with small Slavic genetic influence (South Slavs are roughly from 35% to 65% Slavic autosomally, which is higher than anyone expected before genetic researches)

- That Serbs and Albanians are similar genetically (we are very different genetically for two neighboring populations)

- That Basques have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans (they are most IE people in the world by paternal lines with 85% R1b)

- That Turks are turkified Anatolians without or with very little Turkic ancestry (Turks are autosomally 30-35% on average Turkic if i am not wrong)

- That in Gypsies South Asian component is very dominant (actually they are 1/4 or 1/3 South Asian)

[dviz]

So yeah jews are 40% - 60% Levant IA/BA + 25% - 40% S. European IA (These S. Euros were mostly Romans and Greeks) + 10% - 15% Others like Germanic related

EEJs are closer to Italians than to their Palestinian neighbors, so I would say they're less than 50% present-day Levant.

Roman Levant was part Greco-Roman, we have to be careful how we interpret those percentages.

[Jingle Bell]

EEJs are closer to Italians than to their Palestinian neighbors, so I would say they're less than 50% present-day Levant.

Roman Levant was part Greco-Roman, we have to be careful how we interpret those percentages.

yeah, but also romans were levantine admixed too also modern Italians are too , comparing the romans of IA to they ancestors of BA/Pre-Roman period they were much more East-med like, but yeah i think its abt 40% Levantine related ancestry

[Dušan]

- That Balkanites have a lot of Turkish blood (there is no Turkish blood in Balkanites, except in Balkan Turks of course but they are not mainstream Balkanites)

- That South Slavs are slavicized Balkanites with small Slavic genetic influence (South Slavs are roughly from 35% to 65% Slavic autosomally, which is higher than anyone expected before genetic researches)

- That Serbs and Albanians are similar genetically (we are very different genetically for two neighboring populations)

- That Basques have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans (they are most IE people in the world by paternal lines with 85% R1b)

- That Turks are turkified Anatolians without or very little Turkic ancestry (Turks are autosomally 30-35% on average Turkic if i am not wrong)

- That in Gypsies South Asian component is very dominant (actually they are 1/4 or 1/3 South Asian)

Good observations.

[Snake_]

Romans having 0 genetic impact in any ex-Roman colonies.

Iraqi Arabs being Arabized Assyrians/Akkadians and Khuzestani Arabs being Arabized Persians when the majority of their ancestries is Peninsular Arab. Arabization in general was very overplayed and the genetic impact very underplayed similar to the examples you gave. Arabs had a genetic impact in modern Arabic-speaking lands with the least impact being in the Maghreb. I think only Christian Levantines would have 0 ancestry from Peninsular Arabs of the Islamic Era.

Speakers of Native American languages having no European ancestry.

It seems that the popular thought used to be that invading forces will always be too small compared to locals that previously inhabited the region and that all instances of "-ization/-ification" were simply just linguistic and that cause the invaders were outnumbered, they would assimilate without making any genetic impact. Not like this is impossible (e.g. Hungary), but it's rare that a group colonizes a region without making a genetic impact.

Roman ancestry seems to of been mostly female mediated in the Balkans since Y-DNA such as J-L283, R-CTS1450, R-PF7562, I-M223, E-V13, G, J2a are pre-Roman.

[celticdragongod]

Actually, genetic studies show that Ashkenazis are mostly descendants of Roman settlers in Judaea who converted to Judaism, assimilated some locals into the group, and later migrated back to Europe.

What genetic studies show that?

[Mingle]

- That Turks are turkified Anatolians without or with very little Turkic ancestry (Turks are autosomally 30-35% on average Turkic if i am not wrong)
They are around 30-35% Proto-Turkic, but their Central Asian Turkic ancestry (which includes non-Turkic elements) is about 50%.

[Babak]

Romans having 0 genetic impact in any ex-Roman colonies.

Iraqi Arabs being Arabized Assyrians/Akkadians and Khuzestani Arabs being Arabized Persians when the majority of their ancestries is Peninsular Arab. Arabization in general was very overplayed and the genetic impact very underplayed similar to the examples you gave. Arabs had a genetic impact in modern Arabic-speaking lands with the least impact being in the Maghreb. I think only Christian Levantines would have 0 ancestry from Peninsular Arabs of the Islamic Era.

Speakers of Native American languages having no European ancestry.

It seems that the popular thought used to be that invading forces will always be too small compared to locals that previously inhabited the region and that all instances of "-ization/-ification" were simply just linguistic and that cause the invaders were outnumbered, they would assimilate without making any genetic impact. Not like this is impossible (e.g. Hungary), but it's rare that a group colonizes a region without making a genetic impact.

The idea that Persians are simply "assimilated elamites" or assimilated middle easterners, when in reality, 1/4 of their ancestry is Iranic derived.

-Aryan being a racial classification, when in fact, its an ethno-linguistic one.

-Iran "stole" the name Aryana from what is now afghanistan.

-Arabs massacring the Iranian population and replacing Iranians.

-Azerbaijanis are turkified persians. It appears they have over 20-25% east asian ancestry.

[Mingle]

EEJs are closer to Italians than to their Palestinian neighbors, so I would say they're less than 50% present-day Levant.

Roman Levant was part Greco-Roman, we have to be careful how we interpret those percentages.
Palestinians have significant Peninsular ancestry, so it'd be better to compare them to Levantine Christians and especially Samaritans (they're still closer to South Italians than to those, but not as much). We also have to keep in mind there was West Asian (mainly Levantine & Anatolian Greek) migration to Southern Europe.

It makes more sense to assume that early Jewish migrants to Rome didn't mix much at first and then they mixed later with Germans to a degree, especially considering their mother tongue Yiddish have German origins. And people are more conservative early on compared to living in a land for a time. If you model Jews with Germans and Canaanites, you're more likely to get something similar to South Italians. And this would explain why they have Semitic Y-DNA.

If EEJs are simply Romans that migrated to the Levant and back, then how did they avoid admixture in every place that they lived in? Why do they have Semitic Y-DNA? And how did they become Jewish?

[Mingle]

Roman ancestry seems to of been mostly female mediated in the Balkans since Y-DNA such as J-L283, R-CTS1450, R-PF7562, I-M223, E-V13, G, J2a are pre-Roman.
Do you know what Balkan mtDNAs are linked with Romans? And what the range of Roman ancestry is in the Balkans?

[Eurafricanid]

That Ancient Macedonians were not a Greeks.

I don't think that's a popular myth, most people already know Ancient Macedonians were Greek or Greek-Like.

[dviz]

What genetic studies show that?

See the link I gave on the second page of the thread.

[Aspirin]

That Moldovans (especially northern ones) are assimilated full slavic Ukrainians, when in reality they are heavily Balkan genetically. These claims came from both Moldophobic Pan-Slavic Russophones and Moldophobic Romanians (especially Wallachians).

[Varda]

That Moldovans (especially northern ones) are assimilated full slavic Ukrainians, when in reality they are heavily Balkan genetically. These claims came from both Moldophobic Pan-Slavic Russophones and Moldophobic Romanians (especially Wallachians).

But Moldavians are more Slavic than Balkanic, is not it?

[Aspirin]

But Moldavians are more Slavic than Balkanic, is not it?

50/50, in the north 35-40 % Balkanic. Rusyns who live more northern are around 20-35% Balkanic.
https://i.imgur.com/jsyLFjX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qM49WCD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/02zGNKh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pzZI8uq.jpg

[dviz]

If EEJs are simply Romans that migrated to the Levant and back, then how did they avoid admixture in every place that they lived in? Why do they have Semitic Y-DNA? And how did they become Jewish?

Of course they mixed with every population they neighbored for a more than a century. Read the paper I linked earlier, it has there the discussion about the Y-DNA, among many other angles of this story.

[gixajo]

50/50, in the north 35-40 % Balkanic. Rusyns who live more northern are around 20-35% Balkanic.


That´s not G25... what is it?

[Dušan]

50/50, in the north 35-40 % Balkanic. Rusyns who live more northern are around 20-35% Balkanic.
https://i.imgur.com/jsyLFjX.jpg


Serbs and Bosniaks are cca 60% Slavic and 40% Balkanic.

So is this Moldovan average, if it gets Serbs and Bosniaks as closest.

[Varda]

That north Italians are mostly Germanic. :)

[dviz]

That Moldovans (especially northern ones) are assimilated full slavic Ukrainians, when in reality they are heavily Balkan genetically. These claims came from both Moldophobic Pan-Slavic Russophones and Moldophobic Romanians (especially Wallachians).

I don't think anyone in Romania believes that Moldovans from RM are assimilated East Slavs, but some may use this sensitive topic to insult and spread division.

You have some misplaced anger toward Wallachians. Wallachians talk a lot of shit, but in reality there are more Transylvanians who kind of look down on Moldovans (and quite a lot of it is instigated by Hungarians who lost their position of power in the region).

[Aspirin]

Serbs and Bosniaks are cca 60% Slavic and 40% Balkanic.

So is this Moldovan average, if it gets Serbs and Bosniaks as closest.

30-40% Balkanic in the far north (Briceni, Ocnița, Edineț districts) of the country where live many ethnic Ukrainians is a huge number for such a northern area.

[Dušan]

30-40% Balkanic in the far north (Briceni, Ocnița, Edineț districts) of the country where live many ethnic Ukrainians is a huge number for such a northern area.

But general and central average you posted, show it is very close to populations Bosniaks and Serbs who are cca 60% Slavic / 40% Balkanic.


For example, my mixed mode on K13 from Gedmatch show similar proportions, and I got Moldavian average as closest.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Moldavian + 6.6% Sardinian @ 3.52
2 60.5% Ukrainian + 39.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.89
3 67.8% Ukrainian + 32.2% Central_Greek @ 4.09
4 54.2% Bulgarian + 45.8% Ukrainian @ 4.12
5 94.6% Moldavian + 5.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.15


I would say north 70%-30%, central 60%-40%, and south 50-50%.

[Aspirin]

Results from this area.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Edine%C8%9B_County.svg/250px-Edine%C8%9B_County.svg.png





N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


25.71
33.18
17.93
8.07
10.11
2.87
0.67
0
1.40
0
0
0
0



K13 European regional detailed
Distance to: Ocnita
3.54278139 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.50635107 Croat_Lika
4.52157052 Croat_Dalmatia
4.86309572 Croat_Bosnia
4.95159570 Croat_Herzegovina
4.96527945 Bosniak_Central
4.98259972 Croat_Slavonia
5.22365772 Romanian_Moldavia_North
5.26725735 Moldovan_North
5.27679827 Bosniak_Northeast
5.37986989 Hungarian_Alföld
5.40227730 Croat_Central
5.41150626 Croat_Istria
5.58419197 Csángó-Ceangău
5.60199072 Serb_NorthEastBosnia
5.66609213 Croat_Kvarner
6.08339543 Serb_BosanskaKrajina
6.21615637 Serb_CentralCroatia
6.22450801 Moldovan_Central
6.53808841 Lemko_Poland
6.55598963 Romanian_Ukraine
6.59655971 Bosniak_Krajina_West
6.72273010 Serb_WestSerbia
6.77696835 Romanian_Maramureş
6.90036956 Bosniak_Southeast

K13 Vahaduo Modern
Distance to: Ocnita
4.59150302 Croat
4.67264379 Croat_Southern
5.00537711 Bosniak
5.26725735 Moldovan_North
5.58419197 Csángó-Ceangău
5.66090982 Romanian_North
6.15972402 Croat_Northern
6.22450801 Moldovan_Central
6.37712318 Hungarian
6.53808841 Lemko_Poland
6.94671865 Hungarian_Transylvania
7.19200945 Ukrainian_Carpathians
7.41046557 Serb
7.53066398 Hungarian_North
7.76333691 Slovene
7.97023839 Austrian_Carinthia
8.90552637 Slovak
9.50202084 Ukrainian_Galicia
9.52789064 Austrian_Styria
10.00111494 Romanian_Centre
10.33658067 Montenegrin
10.56187483 Romanian
10.77840897 Czech
10.91903842 Moldovan_South
12.24706904 Bosniak_Sandžak[/QUOTE]





N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


20.49
37.99
14.24
10.49
12.58
1.15
0
0
2.42
0.33
0
0
0.31



K13 European regional detailed
Distance to: Edinet
5.81840184 Moldovan_North
6.37437056 Bosniak_Northeast
7.17912251 Romanian_Ukraine
7.65734288 Bosniak_Krajina_East
7.66876783 Ukrainian_Carpathians
7.76191987 Bosniak_Central
7.79904481 Croat_Herzegovina
7.93907425 Moldovan_Central
8.32647585 Romanian_Moldavia_North
8.82536118 Lemko_Poland
8.82951301 Croat_Slavonia
8.98189846 Ukrainian_Moldova
9.04306917 Croat_Bosnia
9.35810878 Croat_Dalmatia
9.54627676 Serb_CentralCroatia
9.59681718 Serb_NorthEastBosnia
9.67970041 Croat_Lika
9.71443771 Bosniak_Southeast
9.85523719 Serb_BosanskaKrajina
10.00385926 Bosniak_Krajina_West
10.03951194 Romanian_Moldavia_Central
10.04363480 Ukrainian_Galicia
10.22328714 Croat_Kvarner
10.28182863 Croat_Istria
10.56227722 Serb_EastSerbia

K13 Vahaduo Modern
Distance to: Edinet
5.81840184 Moldovan_North
7.66876783 Ukrainian_Carpathians
7.75511444 Bosniak
7.93907425 Moldovan_Central
8.82536118 Lemko_Poland
8.98356833 Romanian_North
9.14792873 Croat_Southern
9.75576240 Croat
10.04363480 Ukrainian_Galicia
10.95089037 Ukrainian_South
11.07762610 Serb
11.39590277 Croat_Northern
11.46254771 Moldovan_South
11.48782834 Csángó-Ceangău
11.52448263 Hungarian_North
12.11218808 Hungarian
12.20139746 Polish_Subcarpathia
12.36726324 Slovak
12.60346381 Hungarian_Transylvania
13.06941850 Ukrainian
13.28850631 Ukrainian_North
13.35375228 Romanian_Centre
13.38073242 Slovene
13.42319634 Polish_Silesia
13.52044378 Romanian[/QUOTE]





N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


25.95
29.20
17.32
9.88
11.62
2.80
0
1.67
0.24
0.53
0.73
0
0.06



K13 European regional detailed
Distance to: Edinet
3.67392161 Romanian_Maramureş
3.83348406 Croat_Dalmatia
3.86498383 Serb_BosanskaKrajina
4.01950246 Bosniak_Sandzak_West
4.08722400 Csángó-Ceangău
4.26604032 Serb_NorthEastBosnia
4.53777479 Romanian_Moldavia_Central
4.57636318 Serb_SouthwestSerbia
4.61357779 Serb_Dalmatia
4.71240915 Serb_CentralCroatia
4.83380802 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.87439227 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.97012072 Serb_WestSerbia
5.04969306 Croat_Istria
5.06356594 Serb_Lika
5.07319426 Croat_Bosnia
5.13466649 Romanian_Moldavia_North
5.14157563 Croat_Lika
5.19137747 Serb_Vojvodina
5.27191616 Croat_Herzegovina
5.27369889 Moldovan_Central
5.27972537 Montenegro_Old_Herzegovina
5.34626973 Bosniak_Krajina_West
5.39070496 Serb_CentralSerbia
5.72152952 Serb_EastSerbia

K13 Vahaduo Modern
Distance to: Edinet
4.08722400 Csángó-Ceangău
4.40398683 Romanian_North
4.86962011 Croat_Southern
4.87439227 Hungarian_Transylvania
4.98786527 Serb
4.99823969 Bosniak
5.27369889 Moldovan_Central
5.80891556 Croat
6.29974603 Moldovan_North
6.45461850 Romanian_Centre
7.05308443 Romanian
7.14833547 Montenegrin
7.43985887 Hungarian
8.11558994 Croat_Northern
8.55639527 Bosniak_Sandžak
8.63380565 Moldovan_South
9.11717610 Romanian_South
9.30389703 Austrian_Carinthia
9.32942120 Bulgarian_Western
9.82888600 Slovene
9.84970558 Hungarian_North
9.96384464 Lemko_Poland
10.09560796 Austrian_Styria
10.71243203 Ukrainian_Carpathians
11.05331624 Bulgarian_Central[/QUOTE]




N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


24.08
31.35
16.41
11.30
10.19
2.94
0
0
2.35
0.23
1.04
0.12
0



K13 European regional detailed
Distance to: Edinet
4.74514489 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.86235540 Moldovan_North
5.10918780 Moldovan_Central
5.20519932 Croat_Dalmatia
5.31577840 Csángó-Ceangău
5.37258783 Romanian_Moldavia_North
5.54970269 Serb_BosanskaKrajina
5.59615046 Romanian_Ukraine
5.66545673 Croat_Herzegovina
5.77615789 Serb_NorthEastBosnia
5.82552144 Romanian_Moldavia_Central
6.02158617 Bosniak_Northeast
6.13133754 Bosniak_Central
6.15751573 Croat_Bosnia
6.21580244 Romanian_Maramureş
6.24120982 Serb_CentralCroatia
6.27044656 Croat_Lika
6.74054152 Bosniak_Sandzak_West
6.80650424 Croat_Istria
6.82890914 Croat_Slavonia
6.88058864 Croat_Kvarner
7.00771004 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
7.02898286 Serb_WestSerbia
7.02928161 Serb_Dalmatia
7.04053265 Bosniak_Krajina_West

K13 Vahaduo Modern
Distance to: Edinet
4.86235540 Moldovan_North
5.10918780 Moldovan_Central
5.28015151 Romanian_North
5.31577840 Csángó-Ceangău
5.33082545 Bosniak
5.99275396 Croat_Southern
6.65785251 Croat
7.00771004 Hungarian_Transylvania
7.10401999 Serb
8.34274535 Hungarian
8.62488841 Croat_Northern
8.67769555 Romanian_Centre
9.09718088 Lemko_Poland
9.10389477 Romanian
9.25614931 Ukrainian_Carpathians
9.48546256 Montenegrin
9.69445718 Moldovan_South
9.96246957 Hungarian_North
10.34929949 Austrian_Carinthia
10.51298721 Slovene
11.03261528 Romanian_South
11.04747030 Bosniak_Sandžak
11.07153106 Bulgarian_Western
11.37991652 Slovak
11.40978527 Austrian_Styria

[Varda]

Story that paternal grandfather or great-grandfather of Karađorđe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karađorđe) was Catholic Albanian from tribe Kelmendi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)) is debunked by genetic.
Karađorđe was I2-Y3120, and Kelmendi are E-V13. In Serbian Kelmendi are Klimenti. Slava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_(tradition)) of Karađorđe and his descendants until late 19th century was Saint Kliment (Clement), and his family settled to central Serbia from Pešter plateau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter) in 1737. Pešter was colonized by Kelmendis in early 18th century, because Karađorđe's family came from Pešter and their slava was Saint Kliment is created story about his Albanian (Kelmendi) origin.
Now when is known that Karađorđe was I2-Y3120 some says that his ancestors were just albanized inside of tribe Kelmendi, but they returned in Serbian ethnos and Orthodoxy after the few generations. xD

[rothaer]

Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 0.5463% / 0.00546261 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
26.0 Old_Med
9.0 Mycenaean
5.0 Anatolian
4.4 Baltic
4.2 Urnfeild_and_Tumulus
3.6 North_Africa


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 0.7277% / 0.00727722 | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.0 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
26.6 Old_Med
13.6 Mycenaean
5.8 Baltic
5.4 Urnfeild_and_Tumulus
1.4 North_Africa
1.2 East_Asia


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 0.5988% / 0.00598751 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.4 Canaan_Phoenicia_and_Syria
23.8 Old_Med
14.6 Mycenaean
6.6 Scrubnaya
5.4 Baltic
1.2 East_Asia

Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.4311% / 0.01431085 | ADC: 0.5x RC
42.2 SouthernLevant_BA
34.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
23.8 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.8115% / 0.01811545 | ADC: 0.5x RC
35.6 GRC_Logkas_MBA
35.4 SouthernLevant_BA
28.0 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA
1.0 ARM_Areni_C


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.5455% / 0.01545532 | ADC: 0.5x RC
38.0 BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA
37.6 SouthernLevant_BA
24.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.4 ARM_Areni_C

https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/108bsw1/ashkenazi_periodical_ancient_ancestry_background/

Askhenazi results:
https://i.imgur.com/UoqpSrt.png

Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.3915% / 0.01391462
56.0 Ancient_Levant
25.0 Italic
10.2 Germanic_Nordic
8.8 Balto-Slavic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.6999% / 0.01699854
53.0 Ancient_Levant
20.2 Italic
13.6 Balto-Slavic
13.2 Germanic_Nordic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.5016% / 0.01501638
55.0 Ancient_Levant
17.4 Germanic_Nordic
16.0 Italic
11.6 Balto-Slavic

+ Imperial Roman samples:


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziBelarussia+Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.1638% / 0.01163818
35.6 Greco-Roman
31.0 Ancient_Levant
15.8 Germanic_Nordic
10.8 Balto-Slavic
6.8 Italic


Target: Ashkenazim:AshkenaziRussia+AshkenaziUkrania
Distance: 1.3418% / 0.01341784
39.2 Greco-Roman
28.0 Ancient_Levant
13.8 Balto-Slavic
9.8 Italic
9.2 Germanic_Nordic


Target: Ashkenazim:Germany+Poland
Distance: 1.1122% / 0.01112197
35.4 Ancient_Levant
32.8 Greco-Roman
17.0 Italic
9.2 Balto-Slavic
5.6 Germanic_Nordic

So yeah jews are 40% - 60% Levant IA/BA + 25% - 40% S. European IA (These S. Euros were mostly Romans and Greeks) + 10% - 15% Others like Germanic related

Provide Southern Italian/Sicilian for modelling and see the results for the Levant then are abt. 10% just (like stated in the Erfurt Jew paper).

EDIT: Of course there was a notable Levant input in Southern Italy. But it has nothing to do with the Jews. Hence the genetic results that Ashkenazi Jews ultimately score 40-60% Levant IA/BA do not debunk the theory that they were mostly converts (from Southern Italy).

[Jingle Bell]

Provide Southern Italian/Sicilian for modelling and see the results for the Levant then are abt. 10% just.

Sicilians are alr Levantine admixed, the correct is use samples from Pre-Roman period which were full Italic
and even adding Imperial Roman samples (Which clusters in S. Italy and are alr Levantine admixed) they still get 30% + Levantine

[Snake_]

Story that paternal grandfather or great-grandfather of Karađorđe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karađorđe) was Catholic Albanian from tribe Kelmendi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)) is debunked by genetic.
Karađorđe was I2-Y3120, and Kelmendi are E-V13. In Serbian Kelmendi are Klimenti. Slava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_(tradition)) of Karađorđe and his descendants until late 19th century was Saint Kliment (Clement), and his family settled to central Serbia from Pešter plateau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pešter) in 1737. Pešter was colonized by Kelmendis in early 18th century, because Karađorđe's family came from Pešter and their slava was Saint Kliment is created story about his Albanian (Kelmendi) origin.
Now when is known that Karađorđe was I2-Y3120 some says that his ancestors were just albanized inside of tribe Kelmendi, but they returned in Serbian ethnos and Orthodoxy after the few generations. xD

There is also a theory that Kelmendi were created from a Serbian man and Albanian woman (which is also mentioned by Malcolm in his new book in which he quotes Bogdani from the 17th century) but genetics don't seem to support it so it's possible it was believed to of been true by some back then.

[Snake_]

Do you know what Balkan mtDNAs are linked with Romans? And what the range of Roman ancestry is in the Balkans?

None that I know of. My field is mostly Y-DNA. But even the J-L283 from Roman Montenegro plots more South-East compared to Late Bronze Age Illyrians from the same area.

[rothaer]

Genetics debunked the widespread imagination that individuals from the same people have notably varying genetics in line with their individually notably varying look. In fact their genetics is in line with their actual ancestry, regardless of the individual look.

[rothaer]

Sicilians are alr Levantine admixed, the correct is use samples from Pre-Roman period which were full Italic
and even adding Imperial Roman samples (Which clusters in S. Italy and are alr Levantine admixed) they still get 30% + Levantine

Why pre-Roman, if the question of conversions is to be enlighted? If there were conversions to Judaism it happened essentially from the 1st century BCE - 3rd century CE.

Sorry, see my EDIT in my foregoing post that I maybe made too late.

[Jingle Bell]

Why pre-Roman? If there were conversions to Judaism it happened from the 1st century BCE - 3rd century CE.

Bcs the romans from this time (when the empire was since from Levant to Gaul lands) were alr admixed from the contact of Phoenicians, Hebrews and etc. . so when the jews imigrates to Italy they mixed with Romans which were alr Levantine admixed

Roman sample from Imperial times:

Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114
Distance: 2.0586% / 0.02058628 | ADC: 0.5x RC
50.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.6 NorthernLevant_BA
7.6 ARM_Areni_C


Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR113
Distance: 2.8443% / 0.02844294 | ADC: 0.5x RC
45.2 Sicani_BA
26.2 ARM_Areni_C
19.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
8.8 NorthernLevant_BA


Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
Distance: 2.7605% / 0.02760458 | ADC: 0.5x RC
54.4 Dalmatic_BA
24.6 WesternAnatolia_BA
21.0 BGR_TellKran_EBA

They were alr a mix of Italic related population + Levant, now we compare to a Early Latin sample

Target: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016
Distance: 2.9722% / 0.02972226 | ADC: 0.5x RC
45.6 Italia_BA
28.6 BGR_TellKran_EBA
18.2 Iberia&Occitania_BA
7.6 SVN_BA

See? the Romans which mixed with jews were alr Jewish-related admixed

[Jingle Bell]

Provide Southern Italian/Sicilian for modelling and see the results for the Levant then are abt. 10% just (like stated in the Erfurt Jew paper).

EDIT: Of course there was a notable Levant input in Southern Italy. But it has nothing to do with the Jews. Hence the genetic results that Ashkenazi Jews ultimately score 40-60% Levant IA/BA do not debunk the theory that they were mostly converts (from Southern Italy).

Oh yeah i get your point, i was just saying that indirectly the Jews are 50% Levantine because the Roman conversos they mixed with already had Levantine ancestry, but that levantine ancestry in romans were not of Jewish origin

[rothaer]

Oh yeah i get your point, i was just saying that indirectly the Jews are 50% Levantine because the Roman conversos they mixed with already had Levantine ancestry, but that levantine ancestry in romans were not of Jewish origin

Yep, I agree. So the results do (unfortunately) not yet unveil with confidence the history of the Ashkenazi Jews. In the ultimate proportions in BA terms you are right for sure.

[Coastal Elite]

Irish Milesian pseudo-history

[Mortimer]

What are some myths commonly held, or theories that you personally believed in, that were busted by modern genetic research?
Some classics are:
-ancient greeks and romans were very different from their modern counterparts. Greeks used to be more nordic, with more blondes.
-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism
-northern italians are not that genetically different from central europeans thanks to lombard admixture (they are despite their geographic closeness to Austria and Slovenia; lombards were a small tribe that got swallowed up by the natives)
-Slavs were already in the balkans before the fall of the roman empire
-South Slavs are overwhelmigly natives only linguistically slavicized
-haplogroup I2a2-din wasn't brought by the slavs from Ukraine
-Albanians came from the Caucasus. This myth originates from the fact that romans called Alba, Albania mountainous places such as Scotland and Georgia. In some maps you see the name "Albania" over modern-day Georgia.
-Turks are islamized Greeks
-Blondism in Sicily is correlated with norman ancestry

That Gypsies are pure indians, or balkan gypsies. They are not, they are a mix of indian, middle eastern and greek/anatolian/balkan. That pure Gypsies are pure Indians. I learned that first in school, no one said Gypsies are mixed they just said Gypsies are Indo-Aryan caste of people. Looking at my relatives I thought they are hundred percent indian, i did a genetic test, and was surprised that im not 60% indian but 15-20% indian. Now looking at roma pictures, and where there are groups of them, i do see other influences then indian, maybe some individuals do not show other influences but when i look at large groups on roma prom, roma parties, where i wouldnt know all of them are roma when i met on the streets, or would not be sure, i see other influences.

https://i.ibb.co/TtXMdgK/Douglas-Hein-AC.jpg (https://ibb.co/Yh9BwLD)

From my hometown, I guess some guests are not roma, but the roma show other influences then indian, if i had to guess maybe iranian/anatolian influences eventhough they are very dark and do not pass as full iranian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h9IfpsUm9o&t=4118s

[Coastal Elite]

That Gypsies are pure indians, or balkan gypsies. They are not, they are a mix of indian, middle eastern and greek/anatolian/balkan. That pure Gypsies are pure Indians. I learned that first in school, no one said Gypsies are mixed they just said Gypsies are Indo-Aryan caste of people. Looking at my relatives I thought they are hundred percent indian, i did a genetic test, and was surprised that im not 60% indian but 15-20% indian. Now looking at roma pictures, and where there are groups of them, i do see other influences then indian, maybe some individuals do not show other influences but when i look at large groups on roma prom, roma parties, where i wouldnt know all of them are roma when i met on the streets, or would not be sure, i see other influences.



So what is the typical percent of European admixture for Roma? Your 71% Euro seems on the high end.

[Mortimer]

So what is the typical percent of European admixture for Roma? Your 71% Euro seems on the high end.

I think the other guy, my predicted third cousin
https://i.ibb.co/TtXMdgK/Douglas-Hein-AC.jpg

[Purple Panther]

"All Scots-Irish are Germanic." The ones, with roots in western Scotland, are quite diverse, both Briton *and* Gaelic.

[Blondie]

I don't think anyone in Romania believes that Moldovans from RM are assimilated East Slavs, but some may use this sensitive topic to insult and spread division.

You have some misplaced anger toward Wallachians. Wallachians talk a lot of shit, but in reality there are more Transylvanians who kind of look down on Moldovans (and quite a lot of it is instigated by Hungarians who lost their position of power in the region).

I dont know how did you get this info, i have never heard any transylvanian hungarian to talking about moldavians.

[Russki]

I don't think anyone in Romania believes that Moldovans from RM are assimilated East Slavs


I would not use the term "East Slavs" in a genetic discussion.

Poles and Ukrainians are practically the same population.


https://sun9-10.userapi.com/impg/_mw-ZKmsEIGIEIYZaJULgS0Y-xQ4R8mntqUivw/okK_451BdL8.jpg?size=663x541&quality=96&sign=f73aec7f34e1c6b3cdb401d368f3ac34&type=album

[Aspirin]

Rusyns who live more northern are around 20-35% Balkanic.

These are the most northern geographically Rusyn samples from Southern Poland, they were posted by Peterski. Interesting, what the people who claim what Moldovans are mostly "assimilated Ukrainians" are the same people who totally deny any Vlach influence in Rusyn populations, not just genetically, byt even culturally.

https://i.imgur.com/ntrscxw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J0tNT5o.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FH94L9f.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mnjKup7.jpg

[Aspirin]

I don't think anyone in Romania believes that Moldovans from RM are assimilated East Slavs, but some may use this sensitive topic to insult and spread division.

You have some misplaced anger toward Wallachians. Wallachians talk a lot of shit, but in reality there are more Transylvanians who kind of look down on Moldovans (and quite a lot of it is instigated by Hungarians who lost their position of power in the region).

Majority of Romanians claim this, including local Romanian users. Moldovans are considered second class people in Romania, and I speak primarily about these from Romania Moldova, these from MD in general are considered third class people, interwar period showed this very well.

[Jana]

I feel very big sympathy and affinity for Moldovans not only but also because they are genetically so similar to Serbo-Croatian speakers. I think Dušan does too.
Before genetics I wouldn't expect Romance-speakers from eastern Europe would be similar to us.

[Jana]

These are the most northern geographically Rusyn samples from Southern Poland, they were posted by Peterski. Interesting, what the people who claim what Moldovans are mostly "assimilated Ukrainians" are the same people who totally deny any Vlach influence in Rusyn populations, not just genetically, byt even culturally.

Lemko are my second closest population in K13. They are obviously heavily Balkan/Vlach shifted in north Slavic context. Idk how can anyone deny that

Distance to: Feiichy

3.78165308 Bosniak_Northeast
3.88328469 Lemko_Poland
4.47219186 Croat_Central
4.83186299 Bosniak_Central
4.85176257 Bosniak_Krajina_East
4.98767481 Hungarian_Alföld_North
5.21429765 Croat_Kvarner
5.37827110 Hungarian_Alföld_South
5.38361403 Croat_Lika
5.52196523 Ukrainian_Carpathians
5.64300452 Hungarian_Central&Budapest
5.66267605 Croat_Northwest
5.66285264 Hungarian_North
5.81411214 Hungarian_Slovakia_Central&East
5.82751233 Croat_GorskiKotar
5.85787504 Moldovan_North
5.88343437 Croat_Slavonia
5.88449658 Romanian_Ukraine
6.03693631 Croat_Bosnia
6.04884286 Croat_Dalmatia
6.23606446 Hungarian_Slovakia_West
6.24188273 Romanian_Moldavia_North
6.25658853 Slovene
6.28778180 Hungarian_Partium&Banat
6.38190410 Croat_Istria

[Snake_]

That J-L283 and R1b-Z2103 are recently from the Caucasus or non-European.
That I-Y3120 is Illyrian/Thracian.

[Dušan]

I feel very big sympathy and affinity for Moldovans not only but also because they are genetically so similar to Serbo-Croatian speakers. I think Dušan does too.
Before genetics I wouldn't expect Romance-speakers from eastern Europe would be similar to us.

Yes, I do like both Moldovans and Romanians.

I got more interested in Moldovans after getting autosomal results, showing they are similar to us.

Southern and central Moldovans are close to Serbs and part of Bosniaks.
Northern Moldovans are close to Croats and part of Bosniaks.

[JohnnyP]

I don't think that's a popular myth, most people already know Ancient Macedonians were Greek or Greek-Like.

Myth is debunked , the Ancient Macedonians were NOT a Greeks.

[Dušan]

Myth is debunked , the Ancient Macedonians were NOT a Greeks.

Medieval North Macedonians are bit different than modern.

https://i.imgur.com/qWOdnIk.png


Distance to: MKD_MA:I2530
0.02649123 Moldovan
0.02950083 Serbian
0.03085576 Romanian
0.03195199 Montenegrin
0.03443137 Bulgarian
0.03584209 Bosnian
0.03609124 Macedonian
0.03677063 Croatian
0.03776997 Gagauz
0.03817394 Slovenian

[Mortimer]

That Ancient Macedonians were not a Greeks.

In austrian school in the 90s in history class I learned that macedonians were not greeks but conquered greeks I did not learn they were slavs either just not greeks but macedonians like there were many ancients like thracians illyrians romans etc

[Jana]

Standard ancient Macedonian samples we have were Illyrian like genetically. Certainly different from Greeks.

There were couple of very southern Aegean like Greek outliers (one even MENA like) among them tho, iirc.

[Cybele]

Majority of Romanians claim this, including local Romanian users. Moldovans are considered second class people in Romania, and I speak primarily about these from Romania Moldova, these from MD in general are considered third class people, interwar period showed this very well.
This is off topic, but have you been to Romania? Have you personally been treated like a third class citizen in here? I had a colleague from Rep. of Moldova and I've never heard anyone saying bad things to her because of her birthplace or mocking her for her accent or different vocabulary. If anything, some were curious but not in a negative way. Later, I found out, that a relative would tell her she "goes to the Gypsies" when she would be arriving in Romania. Btw "the Gypsies" would exempt her from collage tax. So maybe there is a prejudice towards Romanians in Rep. of Moldova, but we're not so aware of it, because there are much less Romanians going to the Republic than vice-versa. I've noticed also that Moldovans (MD) would mainly stick together. They seem much more cohesive than Romanians to be honest. But there are also mixed couples (mainly Moldovan women and Romanian men) and I've never heard of prejudice against the former.

[dviz]

Majority of Romanians claim this, including local Romanian users. Moldovans are considered second class people in Romania, and I speak primarily about these from Romania Moldova, these from MD in general are considered third class people, interwar period showed this very well.

Duuude. Wallachians are completely mixed with Moldovans, nobody in the South considers Moldovans second class. Sometimes frustrated Transylvanians moan about "regateni" (meaning Moldovans+Wallachians) but that's rare. In everyday experience Transylvanians are welcoming people.

Now, in the interwar period, Romanians killed many bolsheviks, including bolshevik Moldovans. For a while, there was a full blown war between the Red Army and Romanian Army, a war the communists lost but never acknowledged it. You seem to be very influenced by the postwar soviet propaganda in your views on Romanians (the famous Romanian gendarme story told by babushkas). Romanians loathe everything related to tsarist or soviet power, and rightly so. But of course, on the Russian side, the hate is reciprocated. RM Moldovans will have to pick a side, nu poti sta cu fundul-n doua barci pentru totdeauna.

[Florin Radu]

I don't think anyone in Romania believes that Moldovans from RM are assimilated East Slavs, but some may use this sensitive topic to insult and spread division.

You have some misplaced anger toward Wallachians. Wallachians talk a lot of shit, but in reality there are more Transylvanians who kind of look down on Moldovans (and quite a lot of it is instigated by Hungarians who lost their position of power in the region).


Majority of Romanians claim this, including local Romanian users. Moldovans are considered second class people in Romania, and I speak primarily about these from Romania Moldova, these from MD in general are considered third class people, interwar period showed this very well.

It's overstated that Transylvanians always look down on Moldovans. Not really true. I heard this complaint from Moldovans but don't know anybody who really has this attitude toward Moldovans in real life. This gets projected on us with no evidence.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

I dont know how did you get this info, i have never heard any transylvanian hungarian to talking about moldavians.

I live in Transylvania and the Hungarians I know mostly dislike Wallachians for being more Balkan than expected and in comparison to the average Transylvanian Romanian. Generally they distinguish by accent.

[dviz]

I live in Transylvania and the Hungarians I know mostly dislike Wallachians ...

They say that because you're Moldovan.

When they talk to me (a Wallachian) they badmouth Moldovans :lol: sneaky Hungarians

[Snake_]

I tried to model myself using only Illyrian (IA Albania) and Thracian (IA Bulgaria):

Target: Albanian_
Distance: 1.9584% / 0.01958433
94.0 Illyrian
6.0 Thracian

[JohnnyP]

Standard ancient Macedonian samples we have were Illyrian like genetically. Certainly different from Greeks.

There were couple of very southern Aegean like Greek outliers (one even MENA like) among them tho, iirc.

Yeah but Ancient Macedonian = Illyrian , not "Greek" , Macedonians and Illyrians were the same people or quite similar .

[Blondie]

They say that because you're Moldovan.

When they talk to me (a Wallachian) they badmouth Moldovans :lol: sneaky Hungarians

You should visit a doctor because of your inferiority complex.

[Cybele]

but don't know anybody who really has this attitude toward Moldovans in real life. This gets projected on us with no evidence.
I'll be honest. I've heard this only once from an older man in Cluj-Napoca. I believe older inhabitants of cities like Cluj and Brasov might express this, because their experience with large amounts of people from other regions (many workers), who arrived in their area. So they might have felt as if they are "invaded", I don't know. Could be also a generational thing. But in other parts of Transylvania I believe people are relatively chill.

[JohnnyP]

Medieval North Macedonians are bit different than modern.

https://i.imgur.com/qWOdnIk.png


Distance to: MKD_MA:I2530
0.02649123 Moldovan
0.02950083 Serbian
0.03085576 Romanian
0.03195199 Montenegrin
0.03443137 Bulgarian
0.03584209 Bosnian
0.03609124 Macedonian
0.03677063 Croatian
0.03776997 Gagauz
0.03817394 Slovenian

Yes there is only one medieval , you can't for sure determined if there were more samples like that , we don't know if it's local or not , maybe this is outlier , in other hand you can determined Ancient ones , because they are all similar/same. expect 1 or 2 outliers , and one is Caucasian-like..

From all Modern Macedonian Samples around 300 , more than a half plots towards illyrians and Ancient Macedonians, there are not samples like Medieval one in Modern Macedonians.

https://i.imgur.com/4zqrMdz.png

[Jana]

Yeah but Ancient Macedonian = Illyrian , not "Greek" , Macedonians and Illyrians were the same people or quite similar .

seems so, yes.

[dviz]

You should visit a doctor because of your inferiority complex.

I'm not sure why are you commenting on my personal experiences.
I'm not saying every Hungarian does that, because they don't. But denying that it happens to pretty much every Romanian, at some point, is stupid.

Some Hungarians are still sore about the loss of Transylvania. From your posts I get that you are too.
This does not make me hate Hungarians, but I'm not blind either.

[Dušan]

Yes there is only one medieval , you can't for sure determined if there were more samples like that , we don't know if it's local or not , maybe this is outlier , in other hand you can determined Ancient ones , because they are all similar/same. expect 1 or 2 outliers , and one is Caucasian-like..

From all Modern Macedonian Samples around 300 , more than a half plots towards illyrians and Ancient Macedonians, there are not samples like Medieval one in Modern Macedonians.

https://i.imgur.com/4zqrMdz.png

The medieval sample is female, so it is not some soldier who happened to be in the Bitola region because of some battle.
I think it is a good example of the medieval North Macedonian and Serbian population.

I'm waiting for more medieval results.

[Blondie]

I'm not sure why are you commenting on my personal experiences.
I'm not saying every Hungarian does that, because they don't. But denying that it happens to pretty much every Romanian, at some point, is stupid.

Some Hungarians are still sore about the loss of Transylvania. From your posts I get that you are too.
This does not make me hate Hungarians, but I'm not blind either.

Nobody's talked about Transylvania except you. Thats why i said you should visit a doctor because of your frustration. Hungarians dont give fuck about romanians, since Stears was banned there was no such hungarian user who insulted romanians, you (and some other romanian user) do it with hungarians. Thats called inferiority complex.

[SouthDutch7991]

-ancient greeks and romans were very different from their modern counterparts. Greeks used to be more nordic, with more blondes.

Never understood this one, I still hear it a lot. Kind of a weird one because there's no historical precedence for it and seems to have cropped up around the 20th century.


-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism
This one isn't entirely true but Ashkenazim do derive roughly half of their ancestry from European converts.


Target: Ashkenazi_Western_Europe
Distance: 0.0162% / 0.01619778
47.1 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
33.3 ITA_Etruscan
13.1 CZE_Early_Slav
6.5 Tunisian



Eastern European Ashkenazi also have a very high level of Northern and Eastern European input. Levels here don't change by more than 1% for Iron Age, medieval, or modern samples from Eastern Europe/Scandinavia so it's not a case of modern populations having more recent shared drift. I made this average from the 5 averages in the Global Modern sheet because all EEJ model as 88-91% Ashkenazi_Germany and 9-12% Eastern European.

Target: Ashkenazi_Eastern_Europe
Distance: 0.0185% / 0.01851309
43.7 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
26.9 ITA_Etruscan
23.8 CZE_Early_Slav
5.6 Tunisian

[JohnnyP]

The medieval sample is female, so it is not some soldier who happened to be in the Bitola region because of some battle.
I think it is a good example of the medieval North Macedonian and Serbian population.

I'm waiting for more medieval results.

This is quite funny topic to discuss based on one sample , which you can not determined what nationality is and how there is not even one full Modern Macedonian sample like the Medieval one? And there is also nonsense to say based on gender if someone was warrior or not , medieval woman were not like modern ones :D

[Dušan]

This is quite funny topic to discuss based on one sample , which you can not determined what nationality is and how there is not even one full Modern Macedonian sample like the Medieval one? And there is also nonsense to say based on gender if someone was warrior or not , medieval woman were not like modern ones :D

Women were less mobile than men. So she was local citizen there.
As I said, we need more medieval samples, to see is this outlier, or close to average.

[SouthDutch7991]

medieval woman were not like modern ones :D

Yes, they were far more relegated to safer duties than men compared to nowdays, because of how necessary it was to keep the bearers of your future generations in good health. You'd have to be insane to send valuable women out to fight and die when it takes 9 months for every new citizen to be born and they die as babies all the time.

[Jana]

This is quite funny topic to discuss based on one sample , which you can not determined what nationality is and how there is not even one full Modern Macedonian sample like the Medieval one? And there is also nonsense to say based on gender if someone was warrior or not , medieval woman were not like modern ones :D

It seems you mixed with Aromanians in later centuries. Medieval Montenegrins were also more Slavic than current ones.

[dviz]

Nobody's talked about Transylvania except you. Thats why i said you should visit a doctor because of your frustration. Hungarians dont give fuck about romanians, since Stears was banned there was no such hungarian user who insulted romanians, you (and some other romanian user) do it with hungarians. Thats called inferiority complex.

It wasn't my intention to insult, I just shared my personal experience.
This is a pointless fuss, let's end it here.

[JohnnyP]

Women were less mobile than men. So she was local citizen there.
As I said, we need more medieval samples, to see is this outlier, or close to average.

It's irrelevant to discuss about this , Macedonia was occupied under Bulgar Empire in that time , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire , exact time 10th century , the Bitola is the Capital of that Empire ???? This is probably Bulgar woman

https://i.imgur.com/oeFfcze.png




It seems you mixed with Aromanians in later centuries. Medieval Montenegrins were also more Slavic than current ones.


Cmon , Mix Medieval Bitola sample and Aromanian , or Aromanians were more southern then ? And most Modern Macedonians are more Southern than Modern Aromanians ...this is nonsense, your logic is not right, you are always forcing Slav propaganda :D , Macedonians = Aromanians , Medieval Bitola sample it is probably not Macedonian this is clear , because there is not a single modern Macedonian sample like that.

As I mentioned , in 10th century Macedonia was occupied under Bulgar Empire , Bitola was Capital ??

[Jana]

You seem to be trolling.

[JohnnyP]

Yes, they were far more relegated to safer duties than men compared to nowdays, because of how necessary it was to keep the bearers of your future generations in good health. You'd have to be insane to send valuable women out to fight and die when it takes 9 months for every new citizen to be born and they die as babies all the time.

Yeah sure... I bet you know this :D , Vikings' History is full of glorious Female Warriors same as Slavic History which is part of Viking world.

[Mingle]

Yes there is only one medieval , you can't for sure determined if there were more samples like that , we don't know if it's local or not , maybe this is outlier , in other hand you can determined Ancient ones , because they are all similar/same. expect 1 or 2 outliers , and one is Caucasian-like..

Could be low quality too like that one from Albania that plotted with Belarusians?


From all Modern Macedonian Samples around 300 , more than a half plots towards illyrians and Ancient Macedonians, there are not samples like Medieval one in Modern Macedonians.

https://i.imgur.com/4zqrMdz.png
What date are these ancient samples roughly from?

Are they from North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia or just North Macedonia?

[Mingle]

Yeah but Ancient Macedonian = Illyrian , not "Greek" , Macedonians and Illyrians were the same people or quite similar .
North Macedonia bordered Illyria, not South Greece, so it makes sense they're genetically closer to them. Get samples from the regions of Greek Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace, and Thessaly; and it'll probably show that there's a continuum going from Illyrians to Mycenaeans.

[SouthDutch7991]

Yeah sure... I bet you know this :D , Vikings' History is full of glorious Female Warriors same as Slavic History which is part of Viking world.

Maybe in myths and legends
Not in reality

[Mingle]

Another myth that got debunked was Ancient Egyptians being significantly more SSA admixed than modern ones. But it turns out that Egyptians gained SSA admixture over time (Trans-Saharan Slave Trade) instead of the opposite.

[dviz]

Another myth that got debunked was Ancient Egyptians being significantly more SSA admixed than modern ones. But it turns out that Egyptians gained SSA admixture over time (Trans-Saharan Slave Trade) instead of the opposite.

How much is the SSA admixture in modern Egyptians compared to ancient ones?

Throw in the SSA admix numbers for modern/ancient Ethiopians, if you have them available :)

[Nausevar]

Afaik we don't have Illyrian samples autosomal DNA. I saw Bronze and Iron age autosomal from Dalmatia and they were between modern Catalonia and Lombardy.
Illyrians during roman times were probably similar to north-centre Italians.
I think the theory that south slavs ethnogenesis was still in the making in 1100 AD is plausible as we saw a medioeval montenegrin sample with bosnian-like admixture, that is with more slavic input and we also saw Vlachs were mentioned as a different group in serbian law. Maybe they completed the mixing at the end of the middle ages and the first century of turkish rule.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

They say that because you're Moldovan.

When they talk to me (a Wallachian) they badmouth Moldovans :lol: sneaky Hungarians

Never had a problem making Hungarian friends so idk, maybe.

[Dušan]

I think the theory that south slavs ethnogenesis was still in the making in 1100 AD is plausible as we saw a medioeval montenegrin sample with bosnian-like admixture, that is with more slavic input and we also saw Vlachs were mentioned as a different group in serbian law. Maybe they completed the mixing at the end of the middle ages and the first century of turkish rule.

But this medieval sample from Bitola prove that ethnogenesis were almost done in 11th century.

She is neither closest to Ukrainian or Poles as samples of proto-Slavs, neither to some Italian or Greek averages as pre-Slavic populations.
She is closest to Moldovan and Serbian.

[J. Ketch]

That English are mostly descended from Celtic Britons, and are like Insular Celts with a bit more Germanic ancestry.

Unlike most of the silly myths posted so far, most people on this forum and elsewhere actually believed this until the recent Anglo-Saxon study, and may still do.

[Snake_]

Afaik we don't have Illyrian samples autosomal DNA. I saw Bronze and Iron age autosomal from Dalmatia and they were between modern Catalonia and Lombardy.
Illyrians during roman times were probably similar to north-centre Italians.
I think the theory that south slavs ethnogenesis was still in the making in 1100 AD is plausible as we saw a medioeval montenegrin sample with bosnian-like admixture, that is with more slavic input and we also saw Vlachs were mentioned as a different group in serbian law. Maybe they completed the mixing at the end of the middle ages and the first century of turkish rule.


There are some Illyrian and proto-Illyrian samples from BA to IA, from Croatia, Northern Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia. From cultures such as Vucedol, Cetina and Glasinac Mati. There are also Bronze Age samples from Northern Serbia from Maros Culture.

[Snake_]

What we don't have are samples from proto-Illyrian cultures such as Bela Crkva which would include modern Serbia, more Glasinac Mati samples from Central and Western Balkans (also Bosnia) and maybe more Vucedol samples. Also IA Dardanian samples. But they will possibly be similar to IA Albania from Kukes which was Glasinac Mati.

[J. Ketch]

Before i get in genetics and history i thought that the true Celtics were the ones from British isles just bcs they are speakers of Celtic languages, while in reality Iberians, Frenchs, Alpine Europeans and North Italians are Celtic as Uk if not more (Genetically speaking)
That's just your ignorance though, not a commonly held opinion. It's never been a popular idea that Celts originated in the British Isles, rather that they spread to the British Isles from the continent. And there is no way to tell whether Iberians/North Italians or many 'Alpine Europeans' have more or less 'Celtic' blood than the British Isles, since proto-Celts have yet to be identified genetically, all that is obvious is that France is the epicentre of Celtic influence.

[Eurafricanid]

Myth is debunked , the Ancient Macedonians were NOT a Greeks.

I am aware that Ancient Macedonians weren't Hellenic in the sense that they were from Hellas, because they weren't, but they did speak a closelly related language and weren't that far away from Greeks, and even some modern Greeks are descendants of them, and I said Greek or Greek-like.


I don't think that's a popular myth, most people already know Ancient Macedonians were Greek or Greek-Like.

[Roy]

Actually, genetic studies show that Ashkenazis are mostly descendants of Roman settlers in Judaea who converted to Judaism, assimilated some locals into the group, and later migrated back to Europe.

I remember reading that they're in 50% descended from Hebrew people though.

[Jingle Bell]

That's just your ignorance though, not a commonly held opinion. It's never been a popular idea that Celts originated in the British Isles, rather that they spread to the British Isles from the continent. And there is no way to tell whether Iberians/North Italians or many 'Alpine Europeans' have more or less 'Celtic' blood than the British Isles, since proto-Celts have yet to be identified genetically, all that is obvious is that France is the epicentre of Celtic influence.

When i said was a commonly help opnion? I think u misread my comment, i said that before i started study genetics and etc i thought that the Celts originated in UK, was a thing that i belived before, in any moment i said that it was a common opnion. . .
Also yeah, every thing sugest that the Celtic culture originated in Urnfield, some others theories like Celts from West exists but dont make sense like the theory abt the Expansion of Urnfield/Hallsttat culture into Europe, the first culture to shows cultural elements celt-like was Urnfield, and is not a coincidence that the area where Urnfield were present were said as Celts
Just model some British as Bell Beaker UK + Hallsttat + some Germanic sample (Anglo, Scando or related) on qpAdm and u will see that british are mostly celtized bell beakers , the areas which i said have substancial Urnfield/Hallsttat admixture compared to previous groups before the expansion of Proto-Celts, and u said that France is the epicentre of Celt Influence, and its not a coincidence that Gauls were genetically very very very similar to Hallsttats and Urnfield, so im not rly understanding ur point
Or maybe i am misreading or comment? Also feel free correct me if i said something wrong

[Roy]

Another myth that got debunked was Ancient Egyptians being significantly more SSA admixed than modern ones. But it turns out that Egyptians gained SSA admixture over time (Trans-Saharan Slave Trade) instead of the opposite.

It is black people and wokies trying to appropriate Ancient Egypt.

[Jingle Bell]

I remember reading that they're in 50% descended from Hebrew people though.

Its hard to know bcs the romans which they mixed were alr Levantine admixed, so its kinda unsure if mostly Levantine which they score are from romans imperials or directally from Hebrews, but i also remenber reading somewhere abt this but i dont remenber the study/text

[J. Ketch]

What are some myths commonly held, or theories that you personally believed in, that were busted by modern genetic research?
Some classics are:
-ancient greeks and romans were very different from their modern counterparts. Greeks used to be more nordic, with more blondes.
-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism
-northern italians are not that genetically different from central europeans thanks to lombard admixture (they are despite their geographic closeness to Austria and Slovenia; lombards were a small tribe that got swallowed up by the natives)
-Slavs were already in the balkans before the fall of the roman empire
-South Slavs are overwhelmigly natives only linguistically slavicized
-haplogroup I2a2-din wasn't brought by the slavs from Ukraine
-Albanians came from the Caucasus. This myth originates from the fact that romans called Alba, Albania mountainous places such as Scotland and Georgia. In some maps you see the name "Albania" over modern-day Georgia.
-Turks are islamized Greeks
-Blondism in Sicily is correlated with norman ancestry
Republican Era Romans did turn out to be quite different to modern Romans, the former being heavily SW European, the latter heavily East Med. So that's half-debunked at best.

Ashkenazi Jews being mostly European - I'd say the jury is still out on that one, there have been studies suggesting they're roughly evenly Levantine and 'European' but it's not conclusive IMO, especially as their ethnogenesis began in Imperial Roman Italy, where most of the 'Italian' population had a similar profile, and South Italians still do.

Northern Italians not being very different to Central Europeans - who ever believed that (besides Italic Roots posters), certainly nobody with eyes.

Turks being Islamised Greeks - never heard that in my life.

[Nausevar]

There are some Illyrian and proto-Illyrian samples from BA to IA, from Croatia, Northern Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia. From cultures such as Vucedol, Cetina and Glasinac Mati. There are also Bronze Age samples from Northern Serbia from Maros Culture.
Those may be called proto-Illyrians. Illyrians are those explicitly mentioned as such by the Romans, 1000 years later. I found roman era samples from the balkans and they were like modern centre-north italians.
These are roman era sample from croatia, montenegro and serbia. I don't know where exactly and when did they take it, so it's difficult to speculate how affected they were by some miscenation with other subjects of the roman empire.


Distance to: HRV_Roman
0.01902720 French_Corsica
0.02067144 Italian_Tuscany
0.02327909 Italian_Lombardy
0.02367283 Italian_Marche
0.02376596 Italian_Emilia
0.02377304 Italian_Umbria
0.02454092 Italian_Lazio
0.02644949 Italian_Piedmont
0.02753338 Greek_Thessaly
0.02788278 Italian_Bergamo
0.03111494 Greek_Messenia
0.03141894 Albanian
0.03143681 Swiss_Italian
0.03151426 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03166073 Greek_Argolis
0.03176575 Italian_Molise
0.03184842 Greek_Achaea
0.03217200 Greek_Corinthia
0.03255794 Italian_Liguria
0.03260650 Greek_Arcadia
0.03272738 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03315930 Greek_Laconia
0.03327006 Greek_Elis
0.03332248 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.03443007 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: MNE_Roman
0.02941558 Italian_Marche
0.02991453 Italian_Lazio
0.03031092 Italian_Molise
0.03210988 Italian_Umbria
0.03214851 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03277714 Italian_Apulia
0.03290712 Italian_Tuscany
0.03344602 Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.03390649 Greek_Messenia
0.03394505 Greek_Thessaly
0.03461902 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.03479106 Greek_Laconia
0.03531402 Greek_Argolis
0.03573178 Greek_Arcadia
0.03640463 Italian_Basilicata
0.03673970 Greek_Elis
0.03688336 Greek_Apulia
0.03724190 Greek_Achaea
0.03747157 Greek_Corinthia
0.03789024 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03807194 Italian_Emilia
0.03870548 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.03877528 Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.03899265 Greek_Cyclades_Milos
0.03899585 Sicilian_East

Distance to: SRB_Roman
0.02462002 French_Corsica
0.02483690 Italian_Tuscany
0.02651471 Italian_Umbria
0.02739974 Albanian
0.02764263 Greek_Thessaly
0.02783302 Italian_Lazio
0.02803585 Italian_Marche
0.02818865 Italian_Emilia
0.02859437 Italian_Lombardy
0.02921609 Greek_Corinthia
0.02945444 Greek_Argolis
0.03021806 Greek_Messenia
0.03057983 Greek_Achaea
0.03072417 Greek_Arcadia
0.03113493 Italian_Piedmont
0.03143497 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03145498 Greek_Elis
0.03173255 Italian_Bergamo
0.03241343 Greek_Laconia
0.03323655 Greek_East_Taygetos
0.03341620 Italian_Molise
0.03343736 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03387872 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03392041 Swiss_Italian
0.03440846 Greek_West_Taygetos

[SouthDutch7991]

How much is the SSA admixture in modern Egyptians compared to ancient ones?

Throw in the SSA admix numbers for modern/ancient Ethiopians, if you have them available :)

Almost twice as much.

Done using a custom calculator with HGDP European, Native American, Papaun, Sub-Saharan, and East Asian populations as sources. Probably doesn't accurately reflect for people with basal ancestry that didn't drift with one of those 5 but it covers the five main clines of drift present in modern populations.

Target: Ancient_Egypt
Distance: 0.1428% / 0.14282692
87.5 West_Eurasian
10.4 Sub_Saharan_African
1.1 Oceanian
1.0 East_Eurasian

Target: Egyptian
Distance: 0.1206% / 0.12057003
78.5 West_Eurasian
18.9 Sub_Saharan_African
1.8 East_Eurasian
0.8 Oceanian


For individual Ancient Egypt populations:


Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-44
Distance: 0.1256% / 0.12563327
88.3 West_Eurasian
10.3 Sub_Saharan_African
0.9 East_Eurasian
0.5 Oceanian

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43
Distance: 0.1520% / 0.15203392
85.9 West_Eurasian
11.3 Sub_Saharan_African
2.3 East_Eurasian
0.5 Oceanian

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Distance: 0.1491% / 0.14913334
87.4 West_Eurasian
9.3 Sub_Saharan_African
2.9 East_Eurasian
0.4 Oceanian

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Distance: 0.1458% / 0.14579557
88.1 West_Eurasian
10.1 Sub_Saharan_African
1.3 East_Eurasian
0.5 Oceanian

Target: EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888
Distance: 0.1521% / 0.15210251
86.7 West_Eurasian
10.7 Sub_Saharan_African
2.6 Oceanian



For Kulubnarti Nubian G25 Samples. I made this average a while ago, don't remember where the individual data is.

Target: Nubian
Distance: 0.1436% / 0.14355139
51.5 West_Eurasian
45.5 Sub_Saharan_African
2.1 East_Eurasian
0.9 Oceanian



Modelling modern day Egyptians using Ancient Egypt and Nubian averages:

Target: Egyptian
Distance: 0.0313% / 0.03130818
76.4 Ancient_Egypt
23.6 Nubian



Relevant PCA showing all three groups compared to HGDP modern populations.

https://imgur.com/9c9F7nz.png


Nubian average I used:


Nubian,-0.21057279999999998,0.10967711999999999,-0.030916299999999997,-0.07856651999999999,0.0026343000000000004,-0.035396779999999996,-0.02447394,0.009751899999999999,0.0843251399999999 9,-0.04937134000000001,-0.00272164,-0.00663312,0.008827419999999997,-0.00045960000000000017,0.012174099999999997,-0.009482799999999998,0.007989900000000001,-0.010831839999999997,0.0028080599999999994,-0.0012180799999999996,-0.00012478000000000017,0.0005464799999999998,0.001 0426600000000004,-0.0014724799999999995,-0.0011927

[J. Ketch]

When i said was a commonly help opnion? I think u misread my comment, i said that before i started study genetics and etc i thought that the Celts originated in UK, was a thing that i belived before, in any moment i said that it was a common opnion. . .
Well the thread is about 'debunking myths', usually that refers to widely held views, not personal opinions, but fair enough. Celts from the West was a somewhat popular idea that has been largely debunked IMO.



Just model some British as Bell Beaker UK + Hallsttat + some Germanic sample (Anglo, Scando or related) on qpAdm and u will see that british are mostly celtized bell beakers , the areas which i said have substancial Urnfield/Hallsttat admixture compared to previous groups before the expansion of Proto-Celts, and u said that France is the epicentre of Celt Influence, and its not a coincidence that Gauls were genetically very very very similar to Hallsttats and Urnfield, so im not rly understanding ur point

Most British are English, and English are mostly a mixture of ancient Celtic speakers from Gaul + Germanics from Northern Germany/Scandinavia. The ancestry from British Bell Beakers is minor, only perhaps in majority among Irish and Western Scottish.

[Jingle Bell]

Well the thread is about 'debunking myths', usually that refers to widely held views, not personal opinions, but fair enough. Celts from the West was a somewhat popular idea that has been largely debunked IMO.


Most British are English, and English are mostly a mixture of ancient Celtic speakers from Gaul + Germanics from Northern Germany/Scandinavia. The ancestry from British Bell Beakers is minor, only perhaps in majority among Irish and Western Scottish.

Oh i get your point, also my bad that i used a personal opnion too thats confused what i was trying to mean

Oh i did not know abt that Bell Beaker ancestry is higher in Ireland and W. Scots my bad again, i should study more ant that
Ty for the correction :)

[Varda]

That Macedonians are very similar to Serbs. Genetic showed they are much more distant from Serbs than anyone expected. It is a shock for some Serbs who claim Macedonians and think they are 'former Serbs', 'linguistically bulgarized Serbs to a large degree', southern Serbs', 'Serbs in denial' etc. :) Btw among Serbs there is a stereotype about Macedonians that they are short, dark/swarthy, often with rounded heads and they sing and dance very well. There is a saying in former Yugoslavian space: 'Don't sing through Bosnia, don't dance through Serbia, and through Macedonia don't sing and don't dance.' Meaning is that in Bosnia locals sing very good, in Serbia they dance very good and in Macedonia both, and if you try those things there you'll screw yourself (you are not good enough at it like they are).

https://i.ibb.co/VtySTrP/9-GNSzc-V-2.png

[J. Ketch]

Oh i get your point, also my bad that i used a personal opnion too thats confused what i was trying to mean

Oh i did not know abt that Bell Beaker ancestry is higher in Ireland and W. Scots my bad again, i should study more ant that
Ty for the correction :)
No problem, here are a couple of large recent studies that emphatically lay out the fact that the English population (80% of the UK population) is overwhelmingly descended from Celtic and Germanic invaders from Gaul and Germania.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34937049/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2

tl;dr
-50% population replacement in England and Wales in the Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age
-75% population replacement in England in the Early Middle Ages

[Roy]

Romans having 0 genetic impact in any ex-Roman colonies.

Iraqi Arabs being Arabized Assyrians/Akkadians and Khuzestani Arabs being Arabized Persians when the majority of their ancestries is Peninsular Arab. Arabization in general was very overplayed and the genetic impact very underplayed similar to the examples you gave. Arabs had a genetic impact in modern Arabic-speaking lands with the least impact being in the Maghreb. I think only Christian Levantines would have 0 ancestry from Peninsular Arabs of the Islamic Era.

Speakers of Native American languages having no European ancestry.

It seems that the popular thought used to be that invading forces will always be too small compared to locals that previously inhabited the region and that all instances of "-ization/-ification" were simply just linguistic and that cause the invaders were outnumbered, they would assimilate without making any genetic impact. Not like this is impossible (e.g. Hungary), but it's rare that a group colonizes a region without making a genetic impact.


Do ANE ancestry among the speakers of Native American languages really means that they do have European ancestry? I find this statement very controversial. It is shared with Europeans and is mostly absent in East Asians like Han Chinese but it also predates the notion of Europeans.

[Babak]

Also, Arabs claim how Shia Islam was "created" by Iranians to go against Islam. Reality is, Shia Islam has always existed and was founded by an Arab.

[Mingle]

Do ANE ancestry among the speakers of Native American languages really means that they do have European ancestry? I find this statement very controversial. It is shared with Europeans and is mostly absent in East Asians like Han Chinese but it also predates the notion of Europeans.

It's West Eurasian, but not European.

[rothaer]

It's West Eurasian, but not European.

I'd even say North Eurasian, equally west and east.

[Mingle]

I'd even say North Eurasian, equally west and east.

North Eurasian is broadly part of West Eurasian like how South Eurasian is broadly part of East Eurasian.

[Fortnite777]

What are some myths commonly held, or theories that you personally believed in, that were busted by modern genetic research?
Some classics are:
-ancient greeks and romans were very different from their modern counterparts. Greeks used to be more nordic, with more blondes.
-ashkenazi jews are mostly european converts to judaism
-northern italians are not that genetically different from central europeans thanks to lombard admixture (they are despite their geographic closeness to Austria and Slovenia; lombards were a small tribe that got swallowed up by the natives)
-Slavs were already in the balkans before the fall of the roman empire
-South Slavs are overwhelmigly natives only linguistically slavicized
-haplogroup I2a2-din wasn't brought by the slavs from Ukraine
-Albanians came from the Caucasus. This myth originates from the fact that romans called Alba, Albania mountainous places such as Scotland and Georgia. In some maps you see the name "Albania" over modern-day Georgia.
-Turks are islamized Greeks
-Blondism in Sicily is correlated with norman ancestry

A lot of this was not proven wrong by genetic studies.

-Romans were fairly different from their modern counterparts. They're North-Italian and South-French like, not like modern Central Itals. They had a very high frequency of blue eyes too compared to modern Itals in general.
-The "nordic Greeks" thing seems pretty dead in the water, but the Biomuse study coming out who knows when does seem to suggest Ancient Greeks were more fair than modern Greks.
-Ashkenazi Jews are mostly European converts in some sense. They're probably mostly Roman-era converts, but a lot of that "Roman" DNA was not from Italy or even Europe. The "Lombard-Levantine 50/50" is no better a genetic model and makes way less sense considering the historical record

[vader]

A lot of this was not proven wrong by genetic studies.

-Romans were fairly different from their modern counterparts. They're North-Italian and South-French like, not like modern Central Itals. They had a very high frequency of blue eyes too compared to modern Itals in general.


source?

[Scandal]

"Croats and Serbs are the same population divided by religion." - refuted (in before aherne saying "but they look the same and oracles/calculators are fake")

"Hungarians from different regions of Hungary are very different genetically." - There are differences but not huge. Hungarians from Western Hungary and Hungarians from East Hungary are both Hungarian genetically and they're more similar to each other than different. Genetically closest population to Hungarians from East Hungary is Hungarian average, not Croatian, Slovenian, Serbian, Romanian or Slovak average. Same with Hungarians from Western Hungary.

"Moldovans (from Republic of Moldova) are the same population as Romanians."

"Ukrainians are the same population as Russians." - Russians from SouthWestern parts are genetically very similar to Ukrainians. Russians from other regions? Nope.

"South Slavs are just Slavic speaking native Balkanites."

"White Americans have significant non-white admixture."

[vandor]

This is off topic, but have you been to Romania? Have you personally been treated like a third class citizen in here? I had a colleague from Rep. of Moldova and I've never heard anyone saying bad things to her because of her birthplace or mocking her for her accent or different vocabulary. If anything, some were curious but not in a negative way. Later, I found out, that a relative would tell her she "goes to the Gypsies" when she would be arriving in Romania. Btw "the Gypsies" would exempt her from collage tax. So maybe there is a prejudice towards Romanians in Rep. of Moldova, but we're not so aware of it, because there are much less Romanians going to the Republic than vice-versa. I've noticed also that Moldovans (MD) would mainly stick together. They seem much more cohesive than Romanians to be honest. But there are also mixed couples (mainly Moldovan women and Romanian men) and I've never heard of prejudice against the former.

I guess it's cultural despise like towards "smaller brother" and those Moldovans who get into Romanian bandwagon become equal. That's someway Russian attitude aswell xD

[vandor]

"Ukrainians are the same population as Russians." - Russians from SouthWestern parts are genetically very similar to Ukrainians. Russians from other regions? Nope.

Luckily, ethnic identity is not determined this way, common conciousness, culture, language, religion and lots of other stuff matter a lot. Without it, most of modern nations would stay some smaller inbred tribes with primitive culture.

[rothaer]

North Eurasian is broadly part of West Eurasian like how South Eurasian is broadly part of East Eurasian.

An interesting interpretation considering this:

https://i.imgur.com/EW79Sn7.jpg

[Scandal]

"Europeans and other non-Africans are not pure human (homo sapiens) because they part Neanderthal, Black Africans are the only pure humans" - refuted
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-ghost-idUSKBN2072X9

[Aspirin]

This is off topic, but have you been to Romania? Have you personally been treated like a third class citizen in here?

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.

It was the opposite in Cluj. I speak with moldavian accent, and absolutely nobody looked at me like at some sort of shit, probably because locals have their own accent, and mentality here is different, people here being more calm.

[vandor]

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.

It was the opposite in Cluj. I speak with moldavian accent, and absolutely nobody looked at me like at some sort of shit, probably because locals have their own accent, and mentality here is different, people here being more calm.

Ever been to Russia, Ukraine? What was it like? I never witnessed bad attitude towards Moldovans.

[alnortedelsur]

That modern Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) are the result of a melting pot including lots of Moorish heritage, lol

The reality is that modern Iberians are almost the same people they were since the Bronze age. Mostly a mixture of Celts and ancient Iberians.

Any other contributions from later (Phoenician/Carthaginian, Roman, Greek, Moorish, Visigoth, Vandal, etc) were very peripheral and didn't alter much the Celtiberian primal mix.

[Snake_]

My distance to ancient samples:

Distance to: Albanian_
0.02471514 Balkans*(AD*500–1000):Balkans:HRV_Trogir_Byz:I1574 3__AD_921__Coverage_71.11%
0.02504395 Illyrian*(750–200*BC):South*Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_A nc
0.02609417 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Sisak _Pogorelec:R2040
0.02701641 Roman*Pannonia*(AD*130–600)Pannonia:SVK_Tes_Mlynan y:R2206
0.02839169 Paeonian*(750–100*BC)Paeonian:MKD_Anc
0.02883914 Illyrian*(750–200*BC):North*Illyrian:HRV_EIA
0.02897528 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Vimin acium:R9669
0.03085352 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Zadar _Poliklinika:R3747
0.03086327 Balkans*(AD*500–1000):Balkans:ALB_MA:I13834__AD_14 19__Coverage_55.26%
0.03120199 Illyrian*(750–200*BC):North*Illyrian:HRV_IAnew
0.03190659 Balkans*(AD*500–1000):Balkans:HRV_Gardun:R3544__AD _575__Coverage_61.45%
0.03190659 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Gardu n:R3544
0.03281831 Roman*Pannonia*(AD*130–600)annonia:HRV_Scitarjevo: R3659
0.03349412 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Sisak _Pogorelec:R2041
0.03438517 Roman*Pannonia*(AD*130–600)annonia:SVK_Tes_Mlynany :R2210
0.03622290 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Zadar _Ulica:R3744
0.03640146 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilo s_Krusevlje:R6693
0.03668272 Italian*(AD*650–1450):Central*Italian*(Papal*State s):ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.03694392 Italian*(AD*650–1450):Central*Italian*(Papal*State s):ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.03694640 Roman*Italy*(20*BC–AD*600):Latium:ITA_Rome_Late_An tiquity:RMPR36__AD_500__Coverage_74.85%
0.03728331 Balkans*(AD*500–1000):Balkans:ALB_MA:I13839__AD_93 6__Coverage_70.67%
0.03733447 Italian*(AD*650–1450):Central*Italian*(March*of*Tu scany):ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR007
0.03743485 Balkans*(AD*500–1000):Balkans:HRV_Sipar:R3662__AD_ 599__Coverage_48.79%
0.03743485 Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:HRV_Sipar :R3662
0.03809929 Italian*(AD*650–1450):North*Italian*(Longobard*Per iod):ITA_Collegno_MA:CL36

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?369356-Illustrative-DNA-G25-Calculator-Ancient&p=7644920#post7644920

[Jana]

"Croats and Serbs are the same population divided by religion." - refuted (in before aherne saying "but they look the same and oracles/calculators are fake")

Yeah. Take a look on ethnic clusters (northern Europe PCA) from rothaer thread.
https://i.imgur.com/gksFMAp.jpeg
Cro/Srb show limited overlap, about the same as Cro/Ger one (which includes Austrians)
overlap with Hungarian cluster is obviously larger.

It's always better to have more samples tho, these are individual results ofc.

Moldovan and Bosniak clusters would probably plot between Croat/Serb/Romanian one, likely more eastern too.

some ethnics are unfortunately lacking, for eg. Czechs and Slovaks are represented by a single individuals just.

[Jingle Bell]

That modern Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) are the result of a melting pot including lots of Moorish heritage, lol

The reality is that modern Iberians are almost the same people they were since the Bronze age. Mostly a mixture of Celts and ancient Iberians.

Any other contributions from later (Phoenician/Carthaginian, Roman, Greek, Moorish, Visigoth, Vandal, etc) were very peripheral and didn't alter much the Celtiberian primal mix.

Maybe more since IA, in BA the celts were only in NE Iberia
also Romans and Greeks had a significant genetic impact

"The impact of mobility from the Central/Eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident in 10 individuals from the 7th-8th centuries CE site of L’Esquerda in the northeast, who show a shift from the Iron Age population in the direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig. 1D), accounting for approximately one quarter of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same shift is also observed in present-day populations from Iberia outside the Basque area and is plausibly a consequence of the Roman presence in Iberia, which had a profound cultural impact and, according to our data, a substantial genetic impact too."

[Eurafricanid]

"Iberians are not genetically Celts" Iberians are probably as Celtic, genetically, as South Slavs are Slavic.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117064&d=1673637564

[Jingle Bell]

"Iberians are not genetically Celts" Iberians are probably as Celtic, genetically, as South Slavs are Slavic.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117063&d=1673632347

I recommend use a Hallsttat Average instead gaul, Gauls maybe can be mixed with surrounding groups sometimes

CZE_Hallsttat_IA_Average,0.12830972727273,0.141804 90909091,0.05828218181818,0.02760181818182,0.04817 663636364,0.00491854545455,0.00502063636364,0.0053 7045454545,0.01347990909091,0.01552318181818,-0.00602327272727,0.00189381818182,-0.01023054545455,-0.00784445454545,0.00784718181818,0.00295318181818 ,0.00130372727273,0.00354736363636,0.0038509090909 1,0.00228509090909,0.00342572727273,0.003810909090 91,-0.00135572727273,-0.00534554545455,0.00103418181818

The distance with Hallsttat will be prob higher but we need use a "pure" celt sample ;)

[Aspirin]

Ever been to Russia, Ukraine?

Yes, in both.


I never witnessed bad attitude towards Moldovans.

Moldovans were always discriminated by Russians.

[alnortedelsur]

"Iberians are not genetically Celts" Iberians are probably as Celtic, genetically, as South Slavs are Slavic.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117063&d=1673632347

I didn't say they are Celt, but mostly a mixture of Celts and ancient Iberians.

And even if Celts settled mostly in Central and Northern Iberian regions, all today's Spaniards and Portuguese (including Andalusians, Murcians, Balearics and what not) are very mixed with ancient Celts, since the internal population movements that took place during centuries through all history, spread all of those genes and make modern Spaniards and Portuguese the very uniform populations they are today, with no much genetic difference from north to south.

How much Slavic are southern Slavs, if I might ask?

Edit: Romans, Greeks, etc, left some input, but yet the Celt+Iberian contributions account for at least 80%, or even well above that percentage, of the gene pool of most Spanish regions.

[vandor]

Moldovans were always discriminated by Russians.

I know one girl from Soroca, authentic Moldovan, she worked here for years and then went away for one year to come back and get Russian citizenship. She feels perfect here, asked her did she think bout Romanian passport, she was like she has no desire to live in EU or Romania and she feels more comfortable in Russia, she said something like you said about Romanian attitude (probably bad experience).

You Moldovans are not Uzbeks and Tajiks, no one here treats you like some aliens. I think most of reasons when some of your people are seen as caricature rednecks (it happens) but any Russian with similar mentality may receive such reaction from urban citizens.

[Jingle Bell]

I didn't say they are Celt, but mostly a mixture of Celts and ancient Iberians.

And even if Celts settled mostly in Central and Northern Iberian regions, all today's Spaniards and Portuguese (including Andalusians, Murcians, Balearics and what not) are very mixed with ancient Celts, since the internal population movements that took place during centuries through all history, spread all of those genes and make modern Spaniards and Portuguese the very uniform populations they are today, with no much genetic difference from north to south.

How much Slavic are southern Slavs, if I might ask?

Edit: Romans, Greeks, etc, left some input, but yet the Celt+Iberian contributions account for at least 80%, or even well above that percentage, of the gene pool of most Spanish regions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108
In that study we can that modern iberians are visiblly more East-Med like than ur ancestors, so i think Greco-Roman dna is no less than 15% IMO, we can find individuals scoring abt 25% - 35% in Roman Times to 8th CE

[dviz]

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.


Hahaha, omg :picard1:
There's a single reason people go to Bucharest: to make money. It's an extremely competitive place, nobody's gonna roll out the red carpet for you. There's not gonna be any handholding either. Most of the people in Bucharest are not Wallachians, they're Romanians from all over the place, and there's quite a few foreigners that assimilated in the past 100 years too. Yeah, Bucurestenii frown at anyone, including other Bucuresteni. Ask people from Craiova or Constanta (meaning, other Wallachians) what they feel about Bucharest and its inhabitants.

Dude, you need to recalibrate your sensitivity threshold, and stop hallucinating stories to explain your hurt feelings. No Wallachian was ever jealous on how successful were Moldovans 500 years ago, because they don't even know or care about, what the f.

[vandor]

Hahaha, omg :picard1:
There's a single reason people go to Bucharest: to make money. It's an extremely competitive place, nobody's gonna roll out the red carpet for you. There's not gonna be any handholding either. Most of the people in Bucharest are not Wallachians, they're Romanians from all over the place, and there's quite a few foreigners that assimilated in the past 100 years too. Yeah, Bucurestenii frown at anyone, including other Bucuresteni. Ask people from Craiova or Constanta (meaning, other Wallachians) what they feel about Bucharest and its inhabitants.

Dude, you need to recalibrate your sensitivity threshold, and stop hallucinating stories to explain your hurt feelings. No Wallachian was ever jealous on how successful were Moldovans 500 years ago, because they don't even know or care about, what the f.

Sounds like Moscow, too. Competitive place where provincials win the race, not slow and "lazy" Muscovites. Same mentality, same thing may happen when people are making lolz at provincial accents. And its often yesterday provincials who make it towards newcomers when old Muscovites don't give a damn.

When it comes to labor migrants, the most often who mistreat Moldovans and others are their compatriots, "brigadiers" who imported them here and shear them, lie to them, getting most of $$$, wearing golden necklaces, leather jackets, driving some BMW and hanging out with Russian partners in restaurants, despising own people and their labour.

Now there's a tendency when old Muscovites move out of Moscow, selling or renting their property to provincials who crave for capital, want to be here at any cost. So, nowadays whole tension is between Muscovites in 2nd-3rd generation and newcomer ones xD. Real Muscovites are just spectators or even out of this show.

[Dorian]

Yes there is only one medieval , you can't for sure determined if there were more samples like that , we don't know if it's local or not , maybe this is outlier , in other hand you can determined Ancient ones , because they are all similar/same. expect 1 or 2 outliers , and one is Caucasian-like..

From all Modern Macedonian Samples around 300 , more than a half plots towards illyrians and Ancient Macedonians, there are not samples like Medieval one in Modern Macedonians.

https://i.imgur.com/4zqrMdz.png

Hey monkey there are no ancient samples from Macedonia ,they are PAEONIANS.Either way ,the actual Macedonian profile is irrelevant to your people's origins ,your non-Slavic ancestry is a mix of Thracian(as typical Bulgarians that you are) ,Illyrian(brought by Serb admix) ,Paeonian(native) ,Dacian(by Vlachs) ,Albanian and Anatolian.All these "half" samples that you are talking about are the less Slavic admixed samples that you cherrypick in your monkeyproject to seem more native and who are Vlach & Albanian admixed(recently or not) if not fully so.Not to mention that majority of gedmatch kits are low quality.

https://i.imgur.com/6JNilkx.jpg

[Eurafricanid]

I recommend use a Hallsttat Average instead gaul, Gauls maybe can be mixed with surrounding groups sometimes

CZE_Hallsttat_IA_Average,0.12830972727273,0.141804 90909091,0.05828218181818,0.02760181818182,0.04817 663636364,0.00491854545455,0.00502063636364,0.0053 7045454545,0.01347990909091,0.01552318181818,-0.00602327272727,0.00189381818182,-0.01023054545455,-0.00784445454545,0.00784718181818,0.00295318181818 ,0.00130372727273,0.00354736363636,0.0038509090909 1,0.00228509090909,0.00342572727273,0.003810909090 91,-0.00135572727273,-0.00534554545455,0.00103418181818

The distance with Hallsttat will be prob higher but we need use a "pure" celt sample ;)

I definitely agree, here it is!

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117064&d=1673637564

[Mingle]

I definitely agree, here it is!

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117064&d=1673637564
Moors that came to Spain were Arabized. It'd be better to use modern Maghrebi Arabs (Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians) instead of pure Berbers. They're mostly the same, but this should be a bit more accurate.

By the way, what samples did you use to represent the Romans?

[Eurafricanid]

Moors that came to Spain were Arabized. It'd be better to use modern Maghrebi Arabs (Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians) instead of pure Berbers. They're mostly the same, but this should be a bit more accurate.

By the way, what samples did you use to represent the Romans?

I think the samples I used for berber are already enough, since it's actually a bit overrepresented. The Imperial Romans are Italic-Levantine mixed individuals, the Greeks_Colonies/Romans are probably good for Roman DNA as well. I didn't use Italic and Etruscan samples, because they'd overlap with Iberia BA.

But these are the Roman samples:

Imperial_Romans:Mix:UnderITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39, 0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
Imperial_Romans:Mix:UnderITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76, 0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
Imperial_Romans:Mix:UnderITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126 ,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012

[Cybele]

I guess it's cultural despise like towards "smaller brother" and those Moldovans who get into Romanian bandwagon become equal. That's someway Russian attitude aswell xD
I don't know. Personally, despite differences, I believe there are no reasons to despise Moldovans culturally.
Arguments can spark if political discussions are opened. Otherwise, they are just normal people with whom we share similarities but also have differences.
I feel the "brotherhood" thing is a bit romanticised.

[Cybele]

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.

It was the opposite in Cluj. I speak with moldavian accent, and absolutely nobody looked at me like at some sort of shit, probably because locals have their own accent, and mentality here is different, people here being more calm.
It's strange to get such a strong reaction just for talking differently. In Bucharest you can meet people from all the regions. Maybe they are not so Wallachian as you might think. For other parts of Wallachia, I've seen they don't have beef with Moldovans (neither from RO, nor RM).
Thanks for sharing your experience! I'd rather not derail the thread further, I'll stop here.

[Jingle Bell]

Moors that came to Spain were Arabized. It'd be better to use modern Maghrebi Arabs (Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians) instead of pure Berbers. They're mostly the same, but this should be a bit more accurate.

By the way, what samples did you use to represent the Romans?

But they were culturally arabized, the arabs from Al Andalus and Roman Times clusters with the modern ones so

[Florin Radu]

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.



Oh no they were mean the charming Moldavan Prince? Go buy a tampon or be a man about it.

[dviz]

"Moldovans (from Republic of Moldova) are the same population as Romanians."


Romania and Rep of Moldova have a massive overlap.
Rep of Moldova average is very close to the North of Moldova (from Romania), and the South of Rep of Moldova is very close to Romania's average.

Obviously the overlap cannot be total, because these two countries occupy a separate geographical space. There's no complete overlap between any of the Romanian provinces.

[Aspirin]

Oh no they were mean the charming Moldavan Prince? Go buy a tampon or be a man about it.

Yes, I expected everyone to bow at me and kiss my feet like they did in the past in front of Stephen the Great in his frequent, not very friendly, trips to this city.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Of course, in places like Bucharest it was enough to open my mouth to see some sort of disgust towards me. Here clearly exist some discrimination towards Moldovans, and seems to be historically motivated, Wallachians always had a strong hate toward Moldovans, probably because of Moldovans being more successful through history. The main idea of being ruled by individuals from that region I find as a manifestation of some strong masochistic tendencies, this is like a Croat who want to be ruled by Bosniaks from Sarajevo or by Serbs from Belgrade because all of them speak same language, totally ignoring other aspects.

It was the opposite in Cluj. I speak with moldavian accent, and absolutely nobody looked at me like at some sort of shit, probably because locals have their own accent, and mentality here is different, people here being more calm.

Massive influx of non-clujeni + a good part of them being Moldavians = hard to be negative when you probably can't go anywhere without meeting a Moldavian nor have more than 3 purely Clujean friends lmao.

[vandor]

Yes, I expected everyone to bow at me and kiss my feet like they did in the past in front of Stephen the Great in his frequent, not very friendly, trips to this city.

You're Romanian, what you're saying is weird, just like me saying something similar to Russians of Petersburg or Krasnodar xD

[Aspirin]

You're Romanian, what you're saying is weird, just like me saying something similar to Russians of Petersburg or Krasnodar xD

You seems to be quite retarded not seeing my response being sarcastic. Funny you call me Romanian, Russkies and noviops like you claim the opposite.

[vandor]

You seems to be quite retarded not seeing my response being sarcastic. Funny you call me Romanian, Russkies and noviops like you claim the opposite.

In one of previous messages you literally compare Moldovans and Wallachians with Serbs and Croats, Bosnians, just having common language. Don't behave too edgy, shepherd boy, it doesn't suit you, just like no one wants to separate your permanent stream of "post irony" from direct thoughts.

[Aspirin]

In one of previous messages you literally compare Moldovans and Wallachians with Serbs and Croats, Bosnians, just having common language. Don't behave too edgy, shepherd boy, it doesn't suit you, just like no one wants to separate your permanent stream of "post irony" from direct thoughts.

You can go fuck yourself already. Croats and Serbs are different ethnicities living separately since the beginning same as Moldovans and Wallachians. Buchatest have zero meaning historically and culturaly for Moldovans, especially from RM. Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you stink to much.

[vandor]

You can go fuck yourself already. Croats and Serbs are different ethnicities living separately since the beginning same as Moldovans and Wallachians. Buchatest have zero meaning historically and culturaly for Moldovans, especially from RM. Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you stink to much.

Oh my xD I'd name this phenomenon alpha-shepherd. Does your mama know you use such bad words?

[vandor]

It's strange to get such a strong reaction just for talking differently. In Bucharest you can meet people from all the regions. Maybe they are not so Wallachian as you might think. For other parts of Wallachia, I've seen they don't have beef with Moldovans (neither from RO, nor RM).
Thanks for sharing your experience! I'd rather not derail the thread further, I'll stop here.

That's called inferiority complex when person is always in some kind of defence mode, a priori considering some kind of aggression (actually seeing aggression in everything). Bad Russians and Wallachians oppress successful descendants of Stefan cel Mare in very special ways. It's a white nigga mentality, we wuz kangz, but now we're in shit in Harlem/Chisinau, because someone's bad.

[vandor]

and noviops like you

You should learn what is noviop, before using this term, shepherd boy. That's a term invented by modern Russian phylosophist Galkovsky. It doesn't mean the person of mixed origin, but a kind of Sovetoid retards who worship the non Russian cultures for example of their great grandmother. Noviop says he's non Russian "because I have moldovan grandma". In worse cases, noviop choose such Identity as his own one. Russian Noviop with Ukrainan roots becomes a caricature Ukrainan supporter, some sickos would end up in Ukrainian army. It's a sick algorithm of denying Russian identity in favour of inferior cultures of ethnic groups inhabiting ex ussr of some ancestors. While normally it always went opposite, as natural assimilation process.

Classic noviops with roots in Soviet elite are running away from Russia now, all those grandchildren of commissars, singers, decadent artists, they smell the 2nd 1937, when Georgian madman decided to execute decent amount of their elite flock, not just Russian peasants, like it was before.

Modern Ukrainian nation out of western regions has high amount of noviops. All those Ukrainian patriots and nationalists with surnames Ivanov, Smirnov, Petrov, whose parents and grandparents are urban Russian population of SE cities, Sovetoids. Their parents' identity crisis and noviop mindset led to children becoming Ukrainians, usually the most caricature ones, including those joining Azov, whose lists show predominantly janissare Russian surnames.

[Aspirin]

You should learn what is noviop, before using this term, shepherd boy. That's a term invented by modern Russian phylosophist Galkovsky. It doesn't mean the person of mixed origin, but a kind of Sovetoid retards who worship the non Russian cultures for example of their great grandmother. Noviop says he's non Russian "because I have moldovan grandma". In worse cases, noviop choose such Identity as his own one. Russian Noviop with Ukrainan roots becomes a caricature Ukrainan supporter, some sickos would end up in Ukrainian army. It's a sick algorithm of denying Russian identity in favour of inferior cultures of ethnic groups inhabiting ex ussr of some ancestors. While normally it always went opposite, as natural assimilation process.

Classic noviops with roots in Soviet elite are running away from Russia now, all those grandchildren of commissars, singers, decadent artists, they smell the 2nd 1937, when Georgian madman decided to execute decent amount of their elite flock, not just Russian peasants, like it was before.

Noviop is a multiethnic mutt, product of "Ruskii Mir" from Tzarist/Commie past. Best example: you.

[vandor]

Noviop is a multiethnic mutt, product of "Ruskii Mir" from Tzarist/Commie past. Best example: you.

As you wish, I dunno how can it offend me, but the term is invented by exact person (Dmitry Galkovsky) and it means exact thing, "novaya istoricheskaya obshnost", a "Soviet nation", being a shepherd boy does not give you right to rethink someone's else terms xD Galkovsky strictly differs Russian imperial processes of successful assimilation and destructive Soviet noviop processes. Noviops are not assimilated into Russians, often hating Russians and feeling sympathy and sentimentality towards the nations they have roots in.

[Miko]

It isn't a myth that Romans are different from modern Italians.
1 study on Romans (Antonio et al. 2019) as well as https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673 on Etruscans

Showed that Levantine and mostly, Anatolian immigrants to the Roman Empire, changed the genetic composition of Italians.

A real myth is that Spanish and Portuguese people descend from Northafricans rather than from Iberians.

Also, that Berber countries are really Arabs, another myth that.

[Miko]

That English are mostly descended from Celtic Britons, and are like Insular Celts with a bit more Germanic ancestry.

Unlike most of the silly myths posted so far, most people on this forum and elsewhere actually believed this until the recent Anglo-Saxon study, and may still do.

Actually, with EVERY DNA test that I see, I see half English, half Scottish.

[Miko]

In BA the celts were only in NE Iberia

Celts are from the Iron Age, and even 2 samples from the Andalusian Iron Age were like 40-50% Steppe.
Astounding!!!

[Miko]

The biggest myth(s) is the rebuttal to the politically correct wave of historical revisionism since the 1960s, that said that whenever there was a conquest that implied a cultural, religious or linguistical change; what really happened is that people changed cultures through a tiny elite.

Today, studies are debunking these claims and PROVING XIXth CENTURY SCIENTISTS WERE RIGHT.
That there was a physical replacement of the Native populations.

[vandor]

Funny you call me Romanian

You're Romanian, it's stupid to belong to inferior culture which exists separately only because of Russian Empire and USSR, while whole of the normal Vlach, romance speaking World is romanocentrist with definitely superior culture. Existence of Moldavian state is also doubtful, Russian-Romanian border should go by Nistru river.

[sevruk]

-Belarusians are Slavicized Balts.
-Ukrainians and Poles are very different genetically

[Jingle Bell]

Celts are from the Iron Age, and even 2 samples from the Andalusian Iron Age were like 40-50% Steppe.
Astounding!!!

No i mean the Celts were completlly in iberia only in IA, while in BA the Urnfield culture was only in NE of peninsula

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Iberia_Late_Bronze.gif
also can u share that 2 andalusians sample? just to test they in a model

[Mingle]

A real myth is that Spanish and Portuguese people descend from Northafricans rather than from Iberians.


Nobody seriously claimed this, only trolls. Considering that South Slavs and Anatolian Turks are often called Slavified and Turkified despite speaking those languages, it's much more of a surprise that Iberians even have 1% Moorish DNA.

[Petalpusher]

I think the biggest one is that "All humans share together 99,9% of their genes" so the concept of race is absurd. Which is true genetically (although not counting non coding genes) yet the deceptive part is 0.1% is still 3 millions of base pairs and we share 98,8% with chimps, 97.5% with mices. Heck even 60% with a rotting Banana.

You can think about it another way. If interbreeding between humans and chimps would work today, somebody with 1 for his 10 most recent ancestors, was an actual fullblown chimp, he would be about only 0.1% different than other 100% human.

More than 0.2% difference is around the level failing interbreeding already and a different species territory altogether. As it was the case with Neanderthal and Denisovans + the unknown ghost archaics we haven't completely pinned down yet in Oceania and Africa.

[Russki]

-Belarusians are Slavicized Balts.
-Ukrainians and Poles are very different genetically


These are the shortest 2-way models for Belarusians and Russians on Eurogenes K36.


https://sun9-42.userapi.com/impg/EG-EXeHJLRHZ5wKsYskfXq2M-bjwMOVUlFoQ4A/sd3PImgVTAg.jpg?size=630x250&quality=95&sign=051fc312c153637d87af43fdf54d1edf&type=album

https://sun9-33.userapi.com/impg/LSqodpbk1M3Ts8RELMnB9MwMsgsNOVmKpoqRNw/OR30hN8jrHg.jpg?size=630x250&quality=95&sign=ce1a6230d2feeabb596c6ad62a46ce64&type=album

[sevruk]

These are the shortest 2-way models for Belarusians and Russians on Eurogenes K36.


https://sun9-42.userapi.com/impg/EG-EXeHJLRHZ5wKsYskfXq2M-bjwMOVUlFoQ4A/sd3PImgVTAg.jpg?size=630x250&quality=95&sign=051fc312c153637d87af43fdf54d1edf&type=album

https://sun9-33.userapi.com/impg/LSqodpbk1M3Ts8RELMnB9MwMsgsNOVmKpoqRNw/OR30hN8jrHg.jpg?size=630x250&quality=95&sign=ce1a6230d2feeabb596c6ad62a46ce64&type=album

And for Ukrainians and Poles?

[rothaer]

You should learn what is noviop, before using this term, shepherd boy. That's a term invented by modern Russian phylosophist Galkovsky. It doesn't mean the person of mixed origin, but a kind of Sovetoid retards who worship the non Russian cultures for example of their great grandmother. Noviop says he's non Russian "because I have moldovan grandma". In worse cases, noviop choose such Identity as his own one. Russian Noviop with Ukrainan roots becomes a caricature Ukrainan supporter, some sickos would end up in Ukrainian army. It's a sick algorithm of denying Russian identity in favour of inferior cultures of ethnic groups inhabiting ex ussr of some ancestors. While normally it always went opposite, as natural assimilation process.

Classic noviops with roots in Soviet elite are running away from Russia now, all those grandchildren of commissars, singers, decadent artists, they smell the 2nd 1937, when Georgian madman decided to execute decent amount of their elite flock, not just Russian peasants, like it was before.

Modern Ukrainian nation out of western regions has high amount of noviops. All those Ukrainian patriots and nationalists with surnames Ivanov, Smirnov, Petrov, whose parents and grandparents are urban Russian population of SE cities, Sovetoids. Their parents' identity crisis and noviop mindset led to children becoming Ukrainians, usually the most caricature ones, including those joining Azov, whose lists show predominantly janissare Russian surnames.

Btw. you maybe can comment on an impression I got:

I've got the impression that Putin is promoting politically and selecting for his friends much ethnic half Russians. Shoygu is half Tuwinian, Lawrow is half Armenian, Alina Kabajewa is half Tatar (and he likely chosed her for breeding even).

Are these halfies that are not acting noviop-like, but "normal", even more reliable representatives of a big Russia that rules the minority areas and aren't they interested in keeping all in one state? Because the halfies are also no Tuwinians, Armenians and Tatars and they have no other home than a bigger multiethnic Russia. Or is all this just by chance?

Opinion?

[vandor]

Btw. you maybe can comment on an impression I got:

I've got the impression that Putin is promoting politically and selecting for his friends much ethnic half Russians. Shoygu is half Tuwinian, Lawrow is half Armenian, Alina Kabajewa is half Tatar (and he likely chosed her for breeding even).

Are these halfies that are not acting noviop-like, but "normal", even more reliable representatives of a big Russia that rules the minority areas and aren't they interested in keeping all in one state? Because the halfies are also no Tuwinians, Armenians and Tatars and they have no other home than a bigger multiethnic Russia. Or is all this just by chance?

Opinion?

They're in transitional state, not enough Russian, not already something their ancestors were, also a Soviet product. But at least they don't have dual loyalty. Someway they're the remains of the noviop trend. Those transitional ones and clear noviops won't exist in 1-2 generations, the exodus process helps a lot, too. Lots of noviops turned out to be citizens of Israel or rapidly found the needed proofs to get one xD

[Roy]

Another one is Kalash people being descendants of the army of Alexander the Great. But they're still very unique genetically speaking for their area, highly differentiated. Possibly because all the people that used to be similar genetically became too diluted (their DNA) elsewhere besides their isolated valleys.

However they do have a tiny portion of their DNA from Europeans as well as Georgian-like people from around 990 and 210 BCE according to one interpretation.

[Mingle]

Another one is Kalash people being descendants of the army of Alexander the Great. But they're still very unique genetically speaking for their area, highly differentiated. Possibly because all the people that used to be similar genetically became too diluted (their DNA) elsewhere besides their isolated valleys.
Not at all. They score like their neighbors, not unique by any stretch. Basques and especially Sardinians are far more unique. Kalash people just have their own separate cluster because they're heavily inbred so genetic drift causes that (comparable to the situation with Jews). But their ancestral components are mostly the same as their neighbors and very in line with what you'd expect based on their geography.

[Marshall Theodore]

Racial Purity

[Peterski]

(...)

You might want to check my Basic World K10 calculator:

LINK (https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/108/basic-world-k10-by-tomenable-piotr-kapuscinsk.htm)

^^^
Check how population groups cluster when using this PCA:

(Ctrl + A from the spreadsheet and copy-paste below)

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Custom

[Petalpusher]

You might want to check my Basic World K10 calculator:

LINK (https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/108/basic-world-k10-by-tomenable-piotr-kapuscinsk.htm)

^^^
Check how population groups cluster when using this PCA:

(Ctrl + A from the spreadsheet and copy-paste below)

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Custom

I ve seen enough world pca's of all sorts. What's different?

[Varda]

That some paternal ancestor of Vojislav Šešelj (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojislav_Šešelj) was Catholic and Croatian who converted to Orthodoxy. Šešelj carry haplotype of the Serbian tribe Rovčani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovčani).

[Mingle]

You might want to check my Basic World K10 calculator:

LINK (https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/108/basic-world-k10-by-tomenable-piotr-kapuscinsk.htm)

^^^
Check how population groups cluster when using this PCA:

(Ctrl + A from the spreadsheet and copy-paste below)

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Custom

https://i.imgur.com/mORIlzI.png

How is South Eurasian closer to West Eurasian than to East Eurasian and Sahulian here? Shouldn't East Eurasian, South Eurasian, and Sahulian all be closest to each other? And where's ANE?

Sub-Saharans are often said to have greater genetic diversity than the rest of the world, doesn't show here at all.

[Petalpusher]

This makes no sense. I guess G25 coordinates are meant to be seen in 3D as well. Amerindians for example are definitely on another plan and mesolithic Euro are far from South Asians, as seen in fst too. It should look like that:

https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~Urfaust/28.embed

[Peterski]

In my 10,000 Years Ago calculator it looks slightly different:

LINK (https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/110/10-thousand-years-ago-by-tomenable-piotr-kapu.htm)

PCA (Ctrl + A and copy-paste from the link above) - https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Custom


I guess G25 coordinates are meant to be seen in 3D as well.

Also maybe a PCA based on unscaled coordinates would look different?

My calculators were made with scaled coordinates.

[Leto]

You should learn what is noviop, before using this term, shepherd boy. That's a term invented by modern Russian phylosophist Galkovsky. It doesn't mean the person of mixed origin, but a kind of Sovetoid retards who worship the non Russian cultures for example of their great grandmother. Noviop says he's non Russian "because I have moldovan grandma". In worse cases, noviop choose such Identity as his own one. Russian Noviop with Ukrainan roots becomes a caricature Ukrainan supporter, some sickos would end up in Ukrainian army. It's a sick algorithm of denying Russian identity in favour of inferior cultures of ethnic groups inhabiting ex ussr of some ancestors. While normally it always went opposite, as natural assimilation process.

Classic noviops with roots in Soviet elite are running away from Russia now, all those grandchildren of commissars, singers, decadent artists, they smell the 2nd 1937, when Georgian madman decided to execute decent amount of their elite flock, not just Russian peasants, like it was before.

Modern Ukrainian nation out of western regions has high amount of noviops. All those Ukrainian patriots and nationalists with surnames Ivanov, Smirnov, Petrov, whose parents and grandparents are urban Russian population of SE cities, Sovetoids. Their parents' identity crisis and noviop mindset led to children becoming Ukrainians, usually the most caricature ones, including those joining Azov, whose lists show predominantly janissare Russian surnames.
Never heard that term before. Usually it is the opposite - mixed people (Russian/non-Russian) would say "ya russki" and that supposedly Russianness is not about blood or ancestry. But yes, it's been changing somewhat ever since the recent events with all the scum of the earth leaving the country and you are completely right about Azov, Moldovans in Russia and the all the rest. Somehow I don't know you, sir, but then again I'm no longer active here and log in only once a week. You can message me privately if necessary 'cause I'm the only authentic Russian national conservative here, totally unacceptable views for most. :cool:

[Leto]

Noviop is a multiethnic mutt, product of "Ruskii Mir" from Tzarist/Commie past. Best example: you.
I don't know him personally but there is nothing wrong with assimilation of culturally similar people. Generally speaking, three quarters of an ancestry is more than enough to be a full-fledged member of that group in my opinion.

[vandor]

I don't know him personally but there is nothing wrong with assimilation of culturally similar people. Generally speaking, three quarters of an ancestry is more than enough to be a full-fledged member of that group in my opinion.

How dare you say something like this to autochtonic Moldovan shepherd master race with ancient culture, who are successfull unlike their Wallachian neighbours xD As I've said lots of times before, I have nothing against any ethnic group, I'm only a cultural supremacist. Culture matters much more and cultures are not equal. Member of any worthless tribe can become something becoming a member of greater nation. Byzantine, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, Russian Empires, USA proved it lots of times. As Dmitry Galkovsky, author of term "noviop" and hardcore denier of Ukrainian nation existance said "every educated Ukrainian naturally becomes Russian".

[vandor]

I don't know you, sir, but then again I'm no longer active here and log in only once a week. You can message me privately if necessary 'cause I'm the only authentic Russian national conservative here, totally unacceptable views for most. :cool:

Good for you, I visited TheApricity every day for whole December, staying home with some nasty shit virus for half of month and being exhausted the other half, I'm outta here from tomorrow for some online detox.

[Leto]

How dare you say something like this to autochtonic Moldovan shepherd master race with ancient culture, who are successfull unlike their Wallachian neighbours xD As I've said lots of times before, I have nothing against any ethnic group, I'm only a cultural chauvinist. Culture matters much more and cultures are not equal. Member of any worthless tribe can become something becoming a member of greater nation. Byzantine, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, Russain Empires, USA proved it lots of times. As Dmitry Galkovsky, author of term "noviop" and hardcore denier of Ukrainian nation existance said "every educated Ukrainian naturally becomes Russian".
Well, Moldova/Bessarabia was indeed a separate state for hundreds of years, even though technically they speak Romanian. I guess Wallonia and Franco-Switzerland would be similar cases (French speakers but a long-established separate identity). Let them decide for themselves. When they move to Russia, they mix and assimilate within one-two generations because they already speak Russian, have the same religion, some even look indistinguishable from Russians. I don't like belittling small countries and nations only because they're small. Not every nation is supposed to be a transcontinental empire or something. But like it or not, they'd have to be in the sphere of influence of bigger players, that's just how it goes in the world.

[Leto]

Good for you, I visited TheApricity every day for whole December, staying home with some nasty shit virus for half of month and being exhausted the other half, I'm outta here from tomorrow for some online detox.
Yeah, it is not worth your time. Especially us Russians are not really welcome unless we're self-hating libtards.

[vandor]

Well, Moldova/Bessarabia was indeed a separate state for hundreds of years, even though technically they speak Romanian. I guess Wallonia and Franco-Switzerland would be similar cases (French speakers but a long-established separate identity). Let them decide for themselves. When they move to Russia, they mix and assimilate withing one-two generations because they already speak Russian, have the same religion, some even look indistinguishable from Russians. I don't like belittling small countries and nations only because they're small. Not every nation is supposed to be a transcontinental empire or something. But like it or not, they'd have to be in the sphere of influence of bigger players, that's just how it goes in the world.

I do it mostly to respond Aspirin, would never annoy random person for nothing xD Moldovans are mostly light-hearted, simple village people.

[vandor]

Yeah, it is not worth your time. Especially us Russians are not really welcome unless we're self-hating libtards.

That's not true, there are enough of pro-Russian and even hardcore pro-Russian (they may seem naive) users and tens of those who simply don't give a damn. All hardcore russophobes who went down to open insults towards Russia and Russians got mostly banned in the first month of the war xD Well, Loki never tried to hide his attitude towards Russia and this war, too, and he's the boss here.

[Dick]

TeH CHosEn PEePleS


https://i.imgur.com/RPidzUS.jpg

[Cybele]

How dare you say something like this to autochtonic Moldovan shepherd master race with ancient culture, who are successfull unlike their Wallachian neighbours xD

This reminded me of an older song called "Envy" by Planet Moldova :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQUiEIsC1U

Lyrics

I look the Americans in the eyes,
I look the English in the eyes.
I look the French and the Germans in the eyes,
I also look at the Japanese.
I see only one thing in everyone's soul,
I hear only one thing in everyone's soul
I feel only one thing in everyone's soul
The envy that they are not Moldovans. X2


And I am so proud, and I am so proud
And I am so proud and I'm telling you
Better than English or German, French, American
It's better to be Moldovan, like me. X4

Americans, English, etc. can also be replaced with Bucureșteni, Wallachians...

[Marshall Theodore]

It's West Eurasian, but not European.

Not fully West Eurasian

[Roy]

Not at all. They score like their neighbors, not unique by any stretch. Basques and especially Sardinians are far more unique. Kalash people just have their own separate cluster because they're heavily inbred so genetic drift causes that (comparable to the situation with Jews). But their ancestral components are mostly the same as their neighbors and very in line with what you'd expect based on their geography.


Yeah they're but they're still unique in a sense but obviously not a remnant Hellenic population.

[SouthDutch7991]

I still see a lot of people say "europe is a social construct, there's no such thing as a unified genetic/cultural europe"

We now know that all europeans fall along a single genetic cline dating back around 5000 years, with the differences between modern europeans only being defined by where they place along this cline. Even the most distant groups that we consider europeans will be overwhelmingly connected to this cline, in the case of canary islanders, sicilians, greeks, and Finns.

[Marshall Theodore]

I still see a lot of people say "europe is a social construct, there's no such thing as a unified genetic/cultural europe"

Well observed, i see a lot of people saying similar things on Quora and other websites, even being totally ignorants on anthropology or european genetics in general.

[DraviXi99]

Well observed, i see a lot of people saying similar things on Quora and other websites, even being totally ignorants on anthropology or european genetics in general.

I see this too on quora,every answer about race related topics always ends up in "race is a social construct"

[J. Ketch]

I still see a lot of people say "europe is a social construct, there's no such thing as a unified genetic/cultural europe"

We now know that all europeans fall along a single genetic cline dating back around 5000 years, with the differences between modern europeans only being defined by where they place along this cline. Even the most distant groups that we consider europeans will be overwhelmingly connected to this cline, in the case of canary islanders, sicilians, greeks, and Finns.
Call me a flaming liberal but I agree with them in that instance.

The problem is that they only ever want to deconstruct white/European identity, nobody else's, despite Black/Jewish/Latino/Muslim/Asian etc identities all being more socially constructed. It's just an excuse to be anti-White.

[Dušan]

You can go fuck yourself already. Croats and Serbs are different ethnicities living separately since the beginning same as Moldovans and Wallachians. Buchatest have zero meaning historically and culturaly for Moldovans, especially from RM. Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you stink to much.

Unlike Moldovans and Wallachians, Croats and Serbs are of different religions and had two bloody wars in 20th century.
I dont see similarities in relations.

[Incal]

This reminded me of an older song called "Envy" by Planet Moldova :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBQUiEIsC1U

Lyrics

I look the Americans in the eyes,
I look the English in the eyes.
I look the French and the Germans in the eyes,
I also look at the Japanese.
I see only one thing in everyone's soul,
I hear only one thing in everyone's soul
I feel only one thing in everyone's soul
The envy that they are not Moldovans. X2


And I am so proud, and I am so proud
And I am so proud and I'm telling you
Better than English or German, French, American
It's better to be Moldovan, like me. X4

Americans, English, etc. can also be replaced with Bucureșteni, Wallachians...


What about this one?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDu52pr73s

[Varda]

----
Moldavians are Romanians in denial brainwashed by Soviets according to Romanians?



Unlike Moldovans and Wallachians, Croats and Serbs are of different religions and had two bloody wars in 20th century.
I dont see similarities in relations.
Moldavians and Romanians are more as Serbs and Montenegrins, than like Serbs and Croatians. Romanians are roughly equivalent of Serbs and Moldavians are roughly equivalent of Montenegrins.

[Mingle]

Call me a flaming liberal but I agree with them in that instance.

The problem is that they only ever want to deconstruct white/European identity, nobody else's, despite Black/Jewish/Latino/Muslim/Asian etc identities all being more socially constructed. It's just an excuse to be anti-White.

Muslim is a follower of a belief and I don't see its relevance in an identity discussion (MENA identity is taken as seriously as European identity if you meant that), Asian Mongoloid identity is seen as valid as Caucasoid identity, Latino is a cultural identity rather than a racial one, and Jewish is cultural/ethnic (comparable to ethnicities like English or German rather than a racial identity like White).

[Mingle]

I still see a lot of people say "europe is a social construct, there's no such thing as a unified genetic/cultural europe"

We now know that all europeans fall along a single genetic cline dating back around 5000 years, with the differences between modern europeans only being defined by where they place along this cline. Even the most distant groups that we consider europeans will be overwhelmingly connected to this cline, in the case of canary islanders, sicilians, greeks, and Finns.

Europeans have a separate cluster nowadays, but this is a recent thing that began after the Middle Ages with Slavic migration into the Balkans and Turkic migrations into Anatolia genetically making a gap between Europe (Greece) and Asia (Turkey). Before that, there was a neat cline from Europe to Asia. And it's still not a strong border in some areas (Cyprus).

[Aspirin]

Unlike Moldovans and Wallachians, Croats and Serbs are of different religions and had two bloody wars in 20th century.
I dont see similarities in relations.

You speak same language, genetically exist a big overlap too being both Slavic populations. Religion indeed plays a big factor, but another factor is that both populations were separated since the begining, even before the split of the Church.



Moldavians and Romanians are more as Serbs and Montenegrins, than like Serbs and Croatians. Romanians are roughly equivalent of Serbs and Moldavians are roughly equivalent of Montenegrins.

Incorrect comparison, Montenegrins are Serbs since the beginning, and entire Montenegro was part of Medieval Serbian State. The Serb dynasty, Nemanjic originate from here. Moldovans and Wallachians never lived together under a common ethno-national state till 1859, people who founded both countries were different and unrelated to each other.
https://i.imgur.com/d7ikgQM.jpg

[dviz]

Incorrect comparison, Montenegrins are Serbs since the beginning, and entire Montenegro was part of Medieval Serbian State. The Serb dynasty, Nemanjic originate from here. Moldovans and Wallachians never lived together under a common ethno-national state till 1859, people who founded both countries were different and unrelated to each other.


That's incorrect. Both states were founded by Wallachians from the inner Carpathian arc. It's dumb to say they weren't related.
Besides, Moldova and Wallachia were separate states solely because the greater powers wanted to deal with 2 principalities instead of an unified kingdom. But from pretty much any perspective these were one and the same state. In fact, in chancellery documents they used to be referred by a single name for hundreds of years: Danubian Principalities.

[Aspirin]

That's incorrect. Both states were founded by Wallachians from the inner Carpathian arc. It's dumb to say they weren't related.

Wallachians means mostly the inhabitants of Wallachia, for people from Transylvania more common term is Vlach or just Romanian. People who founded both countries were totally unrelated, different Vlach families/clans. Wallachia was founded by migrants from Fagaras area from Southern Transylvania, Moldova by migrants from Maramures. This differences are visible even in the language, where Wallachia and Southern Transylvania have their own dialectal cluster.

https://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Romanian-Dialects-Map.png


Besides, Moldova and Wallachia were separate states solely because the greater powers wanted to deal with 2 principalities instead of an unified kingdom. But from pretty much any perspective these were one and the same state. In fact, in chancellery documents they used to be referred by a single name for hundreds of years: Danubian Principalities.

This is some Romanian Commie type of pseudohistory straight outta Ceausescu time. Both countries were totally separated with separated institutions, armies, elites, strict borders, with zero desires of any kind of union, be it political, religious or ethnically. Even some common political/military interests like some anti-Ottoman common actions never existed. The term "Danubian Principalities" is a new term from late 18th century, first used by Austrians.

[Deusex99]

A lot of this was not proven wrong by genetic studies.

-Romans were fairly different from their modern counterparts. They're North-Italian and South-French like, not like modern Central Itals. They had a very high frequency of blue eyes too compared to modern Itals in general.

Sure. The Nordic people of ancient Rome.

Distance to: German
0.05100583 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.05194510 Italian_Northeast
0.05683150 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.06101916 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.06349826 Italian_Veneto
0.07089990 Italian_Bergamo
0.07295244 Italian_Piedmont
0.07386280 Italian_Liguria
0.07744996 Italian_Lombardy
0.07812676 ITA_Tarquinia_IA
0.07908271 Italian_Emilia
0.08621062 Italian_Tuscany
0.09614147 Italian_Marche
0.09721710 Italian_Umbria
0.10035761 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.10253507 Italian_Lazio



As regards to the data on the pigmentation of eyes, hair, and skin, the following results were obtained from the study on ancient DNA of 11 individuals of the Iron Age/Republican period, coming from Latium and Abruzzo, and 27 individuals of Medieval/Early Modern period, coming from Latium.

In the Iron Age/Republic period, the eye colour is blue in 27% of those examined and dark in the remaining 73%. Hair color is 9% blond, or dark blond, and 91% dark brown or black. The skin colour is intermediate for 82%, intermediate or dark for 9%, and dark or very dark for the remaining 9%.[259]

By contrast, the following results were obtained for the Medieval/Early Modern period: the eye color is blue in 26% of those examined and dark in the remaining 74%. Hair color is 22% blond or dark blond, 11% red, and 67% dark brown or black. The skin color is pale for 15%, intermediate for 68%, intermediate or dark for 10%, and dark or very dark for the remaining 7%.[259]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome#Physical_appearance

[Roy]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned here but it has been debunked that Christians from the Middle East have ancestry from crusaders. Any possible level of such ancestry has to be deemed negligible.

[billErobreren]

Muh Atlantic façade, maybe. Wonder if Bob Quinn would show the Atlantean trilogy nowadays

[SouthDutch7991]

Call me a flaming liberal but I agree with them in that instance.

Yeah you say that but I'm sure you know as well as I do that Europeans are pretty firmly defined by the Farmer-Steppe genetic cline, and that few Europeans have any major deviation from it. Because of that, all Europeans can be modeled as part of the same variable mega-population. Modern Europeans are, as a whole, more similar to a single population of another country. With the differences only being from the variable proportion of the same components, and not different components entirely. I will still see people talk about a "southern Europe" and "northern Europe" as if Europe were split into two different races at some point. While you can more or less define being more southern as being more farmer, and being more northern as being more steppe, the variation is still a complete gradient and very rarely do you see groups with more than 2/3rds EEF or 2/3rds Steppe.

The exceptions, such as Mediterranean islanders, simply prove the rule. You can quite easily say that a European is defined, genetically, as being part of the farmer-steppe cline with little or no outside admixture, and you'd be making a mostly accurate statement.

Obviously more modern groups did emerge but modern Europeans do not have any meaningful levels of drift from those groups, with most differences between modern Europeans being entirely attributable to the proportions of steppe and farmer ancestry they have. It's why you can take someone from Spain and someone from Latvia and get an intermediate with very low distances to north sea populations. If this were not the case, such composites would not be possible. I think it's just something people like to say because it makes them feel like they're smart and "dismantling" the concept of "Europeanness", and I am aware you specifically do not like the concept of "Europeanness". Unfortunately it absolutely does exist whatever your politics may want the case to be, and I can look at a global or local plot of Europeans individuals and see that they heavily overlap one another regardless of country. It is what it is.

[Mingle]

This is some Romanian Commie type of pseudohistory straight outta Ceausescu time. Both countries were totally separated with separated institutions, armies, elites, strict borders, with zero desires of any kind of union, be it political, religious or ethnically. Even some common political/military interests like some anti-Ottoman common actions never existed. The term "Danubian Principalities" is a new term from late 18th century, first used by Austrians.
So why did Moldova and Wallachia unite then?

[Aspirin]

So why did Moldova and Wallachia unite then?

On the same principles as South Slavs did in early 20th century, common origins and language, but orchestrated by great powers at that time (especially France and Prussia).

[dviz]

On the same principles as South Slavs did in early 20th century, common origins and language, but orchestrated by great powers at that time (especially France and Prussia).

What a bunch of nonsense. Austro-Hungary and Russia were obviously against it.
Carol I became the king of Romania against the will of his family (House of Hohenzollern, that was ruling the German Empire at that time), so count Germany out as well.
Only France was lukewarm about it, but could not commit any real help.

[vandor]

That's incorrect. Both states were founded by Wallachians from the inner Carpathian arc. It's dumb to say they weren't related.
Besides, Moldova and Wallachia were separate states solely because the greater powers wanted to deal with 2 principalities instead of an unified kingdom. But from pretty much any perspective these were one and the same state. In fact, in chancellery documents they used to be referred by a single name for hundreds of years: Danubian Principalities.

Basarabia pamant Romanesc, Transnistria pamant Rusesc

[Jana]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned here but it has been debunked that Christians from the Middle East have ancestry from crusaders. Any possible level of such ancestry has to be deemed negligible.

It's actually muslim Levantines who have small crusader ancestry (rapes).

[Aspirin]

Transnistria pamant Rusesc

Moscova pămînt Uzbek și Tadjik

[Aspirin]

What a bunch of nonsense. Austro-Hungary and Russia were obviously against it.
Carol I became the king of Romania against the will of his family (House of Hohenzollern, that was ruling the German Empire at that time), so count Germany out as well.
Only France was lukewarm about it, but could not commit any real help.

ixulescu, go make your typical threads with bitches and hoes, history is not for you.

[Mingle]

It's actually muslim Levantines who have small crusader ancestry (rapes).

It wasn't because of rapes, but because Crusaders settled in their regions to try to convert them and ended up assimilating long term. Crusaders in Muslim lands weren't all marauders, there was lots of cooperation and alliance between the two.

https://theconversation.com/amp/understanding-the-crusades-from-an-islamic-perspective-96932

[Seya]

On the same principles as South Slavs did in early 20th century, common origins and language, but orchestrated by great powers at that time (especially France and Prussia).

No European country has always had the same borders. Most were part of larger empires, others were divided into different administrative forms. In the past, the idea of ethnicity was not well defined at all. Territorial divisions were based on common goals more than ethnic group. The common language, religion, territorial proximity, similar customs are very important factors in defining an ethnicity. The history of Southeast Europe is very colorful. But as long as a state union was formed with the approval of the majority and in which there were no objections or revolts for such a long period of time, it means that those people consider themselves to be part of the same family. There have been a lot of pressures from the Austrians and the Ottomans against the union in the 1859. They really didn't need that potential trouble right in between the two empires.

[dviz]

Wallachians means mostly the inhabitants of Wallachia, for people from Transylvania more common term is Vlach or just Romanian. People who founded both countries were totally unrelated, different Vlach families/clans. Wallachia was founded by migrants from Fagaras area from Southern Transylvania, Moldova by migrants from Maramures. This differences are visible even in the language, where Wallachia and Southern Transylvania have their own dialectal cluster.

No Romanian (be him/her from Transylvania or not) calls Wallachians "Wallachian" or "Vlach". This is strictly an exonym. Romanians always called themselves "român", and only when a distinction on regions was necessary a more specific name was/is used (like "ardelean", "oltean" etc). All those early founders, from Maramures or Fagaras, called themselves Romanian. Only in official documents, which were written in Slavonic or Latin (depending on the region), the name Wallachian appears.

The idea that Romanians are a modern nation formed in the 19th century by the Great Powers is pure propagandistic drivel, mostly of Russian origin.



This is some Romanian Commie type of pseudohistory straight outta Ceausescu time. Both countries were totally separated with separated institutions, armies, elites, strict borders, with zero desires of any kind of union, be it political, religious or ethnically. Even some common political/military interests like some anti-Ottoman common actions never existed. The term "Danubian Principalities" is a new term from late 18th century, first used by Austrians.

Bullshit again. These two countries shared the same language, alphabet (a unique kind of Cyrillic, not used anywhere else), religion, laws etc. The ruling families owned land/property in both states, this being one important reason why both states shared most laws. Borders were non-existing, and part of the reason why there were often conflicts on who owned the Southeastern parts of the present day Romania. Even the tallest mountain peak in Wallachia is called Moldoveanu, because Moldovan shepherds would move their herds deep into Wallachia. Besides, when these two states (Wallachia and Moldova) had the same suzerain (which was most of the time), it usually resulted in a arrangement where one state was the vassal of the other. The rulers were often relatives anyway, like Stephen the Great was a cousin of Vlad the Impaler.

Anyway, from the standpoint of the population, these two principalities were one and the same country, despite some occasional conflicts at the top. Also, from the perspective of the greater powers, they were also one and the same state - they just wanted to keep them formally separate to control them easier.

[Aspirin]

The idea that Romanians are a modern nation formed in the 19th century by the Great Powers is pure propagandistic drivel, mostly of Russian origin.

Romania is a creation of France as a buffer state between Russia and Balkans, this is the historical reality. Every decent historian will tell you this.


Bullshit again.

Bullshit is all these Romanian commie fairytales what you wrote. Ceaușescu will be proud of you.

https://www.7iasi.ro/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/hatmanu-ceausescu.jpg



7 lucruri mai puțin știute despre Mica Unire, explicate de istoricul Alin Ciupală
1. Dincolo de etnie și limbă, până la momentul Unirii sunt puține afinități între Moldova și Muntenia. „De fapt, sunt două lumi care trăiesc destul de separat: vorbim de tradiții diferite, vorbim de teritorii între care nu au existat atât de numeroase contacte pe cât ne place nouă să credem. Se călătorea foarte puțin dintr-un Principat în altul. Și aș îndrăzni să spun că, pentru prima jumătate a secolului al XIX-lea, boierii moldoveni sau boierii munteni călătoreau mai des spre Occident decât la Iași sau la București”, spune istoricul. Idealul Unirii n-avea ecouri în rândurile oamenilor de rând, mai ales în lumea rurală, deși propaganda folosită de Alexandru Ioan Cuza după lovitura de stat din mai 1864 făcea adesea referire la atașamentul țărănimii față de proiectul unionist: „Moș Ion Roată e foarte prezent în această propagandă oficială. Dar Moș Ion Roată - chiar dacă e un personaj real - nu reprezintă decât una dintre ideile propagandei regimului.”

https://www.scena9.ro/article/ce-a-ramas-dupa-mica-unire-7-lucruri-mai-putin-stiute-de-atunci

[dviz]

Romania is a creation of France as a buffer state between Russia and Balkans, this is the historical reality. Every decent historian will tell you this.

Sure. France didn't have better things to do than create a fake Romance state in the Balkans, that, guess what, it was so fake that it outlived most other 19th century statal formations in the region.




Bullshit is all these Romanian commie fairytales what you wrote. Ceaușescu will be proud of you.

7 lucruri mai puțin știute despre Mica Unire, explicate de istoricul Alin Ciupală
1. Dincolo de etnie și limbă, până la momentul Unirii sunt puține afinități între Moldova și Muntenia. „De fapt, sunt două lumi care trăiesc destul de separat: vorbim de tradiții diferite, vorbim de teritorii între care nu au existat atât de numeroase contacte pe cât ne place nouă să credem. Se călătorea foarte puțin dintr-un Principat în altul. Și aș îndrăzni să spun că, pentru prima jumătate a secolului al XIX-lea, boierii moldoveni sau boierii munteni călătoreau mai des spre Occident decât la Iași sau la București”, spune istoricul. Idealul Unirii n-avea ecouri în rândurile oamenilor de rând, mai ales în lumea rurală, deși propaganda folosită de Alexandru Ioan Cuza după lovitura de stat din mai 1864 făcea adesea referire la atașamentul țărănimii față de proiectul unionist: „Moș Ion Roată e foarte prezent în această propagandă oficială. Dar Moș Ion Roată - chiar dacă e un personaj real - nu reprezintă decât una dintre ideile propagandei regimului.”


You're quoting an anti-nationalist activist historian who brings nothing in support of his fantasies. Of course people travelled less in the 19th century, people were limited by the transportation tech available to them. So fucking what. Customs neatly tie neighboring Romanian regions, with no obvious border. The only visible distinction was created by the mankurtization of Bessarabia, which nonetheless still bears the name of the founding Wallachian dynasty - oh, the irony :lol:

[Aspirin]

You're quoting an anti-nationalist activist historian who brings nothing in support of his fantasies. Of course people travelled less in the 19th century, people were limited by the transportation tech available to them. So fucking what. Customs neatly tie neighboring Romanian regions, with no obvious border. The only visible distinction was created by the mankurtization of Bessarabia, which nonetheless still bears the name of the founding Wallachian dynasty - oh, the irony :lol:

Sure, everything what don't fit the narrative of the party is anti-nationalist/anti-romanian. Bessarabia is name imposed by Russians, with zero meaning to the region. Nobody use this term or identify with him, it have zero ethnic/historical meaning. In fact is heavily used by Romanians towards Moldovans today, basically the mankurtization is promoted by Romanians via their politics of Romanisation/Wallachisation.


But from pretty much any perspective these were one and the same state.

Two churches builded in the same time, clearly show how the same they were.

Wallachian
https://www.romaniajournal.ro/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Manastirea-Curtea-de-Arges.jpg

Moldavian
https://guidedtours.one/pic/sections/gallery/4434//Day_9_Saint_John_the_New_Monastery_2.jpg

[dviz]

Sure, everything what don't fit the narrative of the party is anti-nationalist/anti-romanian.

I can immediately tell their ideology by the type of lies they try to spread.

Saying that Wallachia and Moldova were different states, foreign to each other, and France just made the union just by snapping its fingers, it's pure bullshit. This is the same kind of nonsense that says, for instance, that the Romanian anti-communist revolution, that overthrew Ceausescu's regime, was solely done by outside forces.

No. In both cases, the overwhelming majority of the population was ready and willing to sacrifice for the change. The outside help played a role, but a secondary one. Moldova wanted the Union. Deal with it.


Bessarabia is name imposed by Russians, with zero meaning to the region. Nobody use this term or identify with him, it have zero ethnic/historical meaning. In fact is heavily used by Romanians towards Moldovans today, basically the mankurtization is promoted by Romanians via their politics of Romanisation/Wallachisation.

Of course Bessarabia name has a historic meaning in the region. It was the name of the southern part of Moldova, which often changed hands with Wallachia, and various kinds of Turkic people. Eventually the name was attached to the entire eastern half of Moldova, solely because Russia decided to steal more territory in 1812 (Bugeac/Bessarabia was not enough for them). At the same time, Russia acknowledged that Moldova and Wallachia was one and the same, by naming their Moldovan capture with a Wallachian name.

Regardless, Russia wanted both principalities, this is obvious - they even imposed the same laws in early 19th century in both states (Regulamentul Organic). In fact, the Romanian principalities were not annexed by Russia in 1877 just because, in the first phase, Russia lost the war with Turkey, and was forced to ask Romania for help (help which Russia refused before the war).

Btw, Basarabia e Romania!

[dviz]

Two churches builded in the same time, clearly show how the same they were.

Wallachian
https://www.romaniajournal.ro/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Manastirea-Curtea-de-Arges.jpg

Funny thing is, there is no other church in Wallachia that looks like the one above (from Curtea de Arges), but a copy of it exists in Bessarabia, twisted towers and all :lol:

[Aspirin]

Funny thing is, there is no other church in Wallachia that looks like the one above (from Curtea de Arges), but a copy of it exists in Bessarabia, twisted towers and all :lol:

Is builded by Romanians (more precisely by an Romanian architect from Bucharest) in interwar period and looks totally alien here, in fact is a good example of Wallachisation, since local churches never had such tradition of building.


Btw, Basarabia e Romania!

Yes, you are right, since 1330.

https://i.imgur.com/t5r2IeZ.jpg

[dviz]

Is builded by Romanians (more precisely by an Romanian architect from Bucharest) in interwar period and looks totally alien here, in fact is a good example of Wallachisation, since local churches never had such tradition of building.

Sure, that was necessary after the invasion of Russian style churches in Bessarabia.

In fact, there is far more differentiation between the church styles in the western and eastern parts of Moldova, than between Romanian Moldova and Wallachia. You have to be a complete idiot not to see that.

Most orthodox churches in Romania follow the byzantine style (in both Wallachia and Moldova), while the churches you post from Moldova are period specific (tied to the rule of Stefan cel Mare or thereabouts).




Yes, you are right, since 1330.


you're so butthurt :lol:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ER_WxYYXYAEAFVI.jpg

[RogueState]

That Macedonians are very similar to Serbs. Genetic showed they are much more distant from Serbs than anyone expected. It is a shock for some Serbs who claim Macedonians and think they are 'former Serbs', 'linguistically bulgarized Serbs to a large degree', southern Serbs', 'Serbs in denial' etc. :) Btw among Serbs there is a stereotype about Macedonians that they are short, dark/swarthy, often with rounded heads and they sing and dance very well. There is a saying in former Yugoslavian space: 'Don't sing through Bosnia, don't dance through Serbia, and through Macedonia don't sing and don't dance.' Meaning is that in Bosnia locals sing very good, in Serbia they dance very good and in Macedonia both, and if you try those things there you'll screw yourself (you are not good enough at it like they are).

https://i.ibb.co/VtySTrP/9-GNSzc-V-2.png

Talking about ex-YU myths, is that my people (Muslims from Sandzak) are just local Serb converts or even more laughable Bosniaks (because pushed on political level, not just online eccentric propaganda)

[Merya2004]

Perhaps there was a myth and is now debunked - "the Russians are pure Slavs, the Finno-Ugric admixture, if present, is insignificant and only in the north."

The results of the most thorough research is the project "Russian gene pool" (https://genofond.ru/genofond.binec.ru/default24f9d.html?s=0&p=376)
The results of this study: "Russian Plain - Slavic stratification on the autochthonous Finno-Ugric substratum" or to put it more simply - a thin Slavic coating on a thick Finno-Ugric frame for the all of Russian Plain, and not just the north.

[Varda]

Talking about ex-YU myths, is that my people (Muslims from Sandzak) are just local Serb converts or even more laughable Bosniaks (because pushed on political level, not just online eccentric propaganda)

Yes.
Some Serbs claimed that Muslims of Sandžak are descendants of medieval Raška Serbs. But most of the Serbs believed Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs from Brda, Zeta and Old Herzegovina who settled in Raška/Sandžak in Ottoman time. Part of Sandžakians really originated from that regions, but large part of them have Albanian origin from northern Albania. Most of Serbs ignore or they don't know for Gheg Albanian migrations to the Raška/Sandžak. Influence of medieval Raška Serbs among Sandžakians is underrated. I heard recently from one guy who know much about genetic of Sandžakians that about 10% of them originated from medieval Raška Serbs. I thought it was less than 5%.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Talking about ex-YU myths, is that my people (Muslims from Sandzak) are just local Serb converts or even more laughable Bosniaks (because pushed on political level, not just online eccentric propaganda)

I agree. I have discussed this with relatives and they agree that Slav muslim doesn't equal Bosniak. Bosniak is just a Bosnian originally descendant from Bosnian lands that is also ethnically Muslim.

Yes.
Some Serbs claimed that Muslims of Sandžak are descendants of medieval Raška Serbs. But most of the Serbs believed Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs from Brda, Zeta and Old Herzegovina who settled in Raška/Sandžak in Ottoman time. Part of Sandžakians really originated from that regions, but large part of them have Albanian origin from northern Albania. Most of Serbs ignore or they don't know for Gheg Albanian migrations to the Raška/Sandžak. Influence of medieval Raška Serbs among Sandžakians is underrated. I heard recently from one guy who know much about genetic of Sandžakians that about 10% of them originated from medieval Raška Serbs. I thought it was less than 5%.

Agreed, and you also start to notice cultural changes as you look at these different areas. Like, for instance, it was known that Albanian men were very jealous of their own women (and be aware that I'm not saying this to be disrespectful against any Albanians), and didn't let them visit their own parents for a long time. People heard about this when a local Bosniak woman would marry an Albanian. Perhaps this is also why you see some populations in the metropolitan areas of Sarajevo used something that was similar to a Burqa, in the past (because they wanted to hide their wife from other men), while it didn't happen in Muslim majority areas of Bosnia. It is more unusual among Bosniaks for men to be that extremely controlling of their wives as to not let them get out of their house or let them visit their parents. But of course it does happen in some families that the wife has the responsibility for too many things in the household. But she is still allowed to go outside and usually has a job. Cheating is extremely rare and unheard of.

Serbs on the other hand are not known for keeping their wives from going outside and getting a job or working. Serb women are quite hard working despite the circumstances. But I cannot say too much about the typical Serb household since I'm not Serb.

[Mingle]

Talking about ex-YU myths, is that my people (Muslims from Sandzak) are just local Serb converts or even more laughable Bosniaks (because pushed on political level, not just online eccentric propaganda)


Yes.
Some Serbs claimed that Muslims of Sandžak are descendants of medieval Raška Serbs. But most of the Serbs believed Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs from Brda, Zeta and Old Herzegovina who settled in Raška/Sandžak in Ottoman time. Part of Sandžakians really originated from that regions, but large part of them have Albanian origin from northern Albania. Most of Serbs ignore or they don't know for Gheg Albanian migrations to the Raška/Sandžak. Influence of medieval Raška Serbs among Sandžakians is underrated. I heard recently from one guy who know much about genetic of Sandžakians that about 10% of them originated from medieval Raška Serbs. I thought it was less than 5%.

It's the opposite more so. People kept saying that Sanjak Muslims are Slavified Albanian migrants and that the original Rashka Serbs moved to Vojvodina. This is partly true, the original Rashka Serbs left for Vojvodina, but Sanjak Muslims don't have Albanian roots. They score very close to southern Serbs and appear to be descended from Montenegrin/Herzegovinan Serb migrants that converted to Islam. There's also a bit of a difference between Muslims of West Sanjak and East Sanjak. Those of West Sanjak are 100% Serb while those of East Sanjak may have some Albanian (although mainly Serb still).


Distance to: Bosniak_Sandzak_West
1.98103508 Serb_Dalmatia
2.01482009 Romanian_Maramureş
2.10449519 Serb_SouthwestSerbia
2.22229611 Serb_Vojvodina
2.39020920 Montenegro_Old_Herzegovina
2.42390181 Romanian_Crişana
2.82455306 Serb_BosanskaKrajina
2.96354517 Romanian_Moldavia_Central
3.12193850 Serb_Lika
3.19363429 Serb_Herzegovina
3.19372823 Serb_SouthSerbia
3.32448492 Romanian_Moldavia_South
3.39776397 Romanian_Transylvania
3.41817203 Serb_WestSerbia
3.51435627 Serb_CentralSerbia
3.57166628 Serb_CentralCroatia
3.63487276 Serb_EastSerbia
3.68376166 Serb_NorthEastBosnia
4.06741933 Romanian_Banat
4.43871603 Croat_Dalmatia
4.51696801 Bosniak_Krajina_West
4.63263424 Vlach_Serbia
4.72860445 Bosniak_Southeast
4.90638360 Serb_KosovoMetohija
4.91675706 Moldovan_Central


Distance to: Bosniak_Sandzak_East
1.68000000 Romanian_Oltenia
2.23888365 Bulgarian_Southwestern
2.50653147 Montenegro_SouthEast
2.56920221 Romanian_Muntenia
2.79102132 Romanian_Banat
2.80770369 Romanian_Dobruja
3.31977409 Serb_KosovoMetohija
3.36738771 Romanian_Transylvania
3.51343137 Bulgarian_Northwestern
3.58438279 Macedonian_North
3.72212305 Vlach_Serbia
3.97211531 Bulgarian_Southcentral
4.00958851 Bulgarian_Northcentral
4.02662390 Romanian_Moldavia_South
4.08058819 Macedonian_East
4.38969247 Albanian_Montenegro
4.48650198 Bulgarian_Northeastern
4.67352116 Romanian_Crişana
4.78106683 Serb_Herzegovina
5.07620922 Serb_Vojvodina
5.13784001 Montenegro_Old_Herzegovina
5.23469197 Serb_SouthSerbia
5.40767972 Pomak_Bulgaria
5.45181621 Macedonian_Central
5.93812260 Bosniak_Sandzak_West

[Mingle]

I agree. I have discussed this with relatives and they agree that Slav muslim doesn't equal Bosniak. Bosniak is just a Bosnian originally descendant from Bosnian lands that is also ethnically Muslim.
By "Bosnian lands", you mean Vrhbosna or anywhere from B&H?

[Atlantic Reptilian]

By "Bosnian lands", you mean Vrhbosna or anywhere from B&H?

I mean the areas where the Bosnian kingdom originated. The darkest area on this map for the most part (Bosna) although in Srebrenica I think you meet more of a Serb mentality even among Bosniaks:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Bosnia_kingdom_in_the_XIV_c.jpg/1200px-Bosnia_kingdom_in_the_XIV_c.jpg

But of course it's not that strict. I would say Tuzla canton also has a large Bosniak indigenous population. Hercegovina is however different from Bosnia IMO

[Varda]

It's the opposite more so. People kept saying that Sanjak Muslims are Slavified Albanian migrants and that the original Rashka Serbs moved to Vojvodina. This is partly true, the original Rashka Serbs left for Vojvodina, but Sanjak Muslims don't have Albanian roots. They score very close to southern Serbs and appear to be descended from Montenegrin/Herzegovinan Serb migrants that converted to Islam. There's also a bit of a difference between Muslims of West Sanjak and East Sanjak. Those of West Sanjak are 100% Serb while those of East Sanjak may have some Albanian (although mainly Serb still).

Western Sandžakians are descendants of Serbs who settled in WS in Ottoman time from Old/East Herzegovina, Brda in smaller degree and with some native Serbs who converted to islam. For example around Prijepolje and Pljevlja among both Serbs and Muslims/Bosniaks is very common haplogroup I1-FGC22045 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/) which is Y DNA of Serbian Old Herzegovinian tribe Drobnjaci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci).
Eastern Sandžakians are lack of of Drobnjak Y DNA. But Dronjak paternal line is common among Bosniaks from eastern Bosnia and Cazinska Krajina in most western part of Bosnia. From one place near Bihać 5-6 Bosniaks are tested (all with different surnames) and all are Drobnjak I1-FGC22045.

Eastern Sandžakians mostly originated from Brda and northern Albania, in smaller degree from Zeta and Old/East Herzegovina and with few native islamized Serbs. Haplotypes of all Gheg Albanian tribes are known, and Y DNA of many Gheg tribes exist in eastern Sandžakians. Two strongest genetic lineages among eastern Sandžakians are Kuči and Kelmendi. Kuči came from Brda and Kelmendi from northern Albania. Both are E-V13, but of course different branches. Eastern Sandžakians have very high % of E-V13 due to Kuči and Kelmendi, but also Vasojevići and Bjelopavlići who are Brda tribes as Kuči. Second strongest hsplogroip in eastern Sandžakians is R1b-BY611 which came from Albanians. Eastern Sandžakians have only about 15% I2a-Din + R1a (basic Slavic haplos).
Autosomally eastern Sandžakians are more northern shifted than Albanians because they are not pure Albanians, but just partly. They have also Serbian/Montenegrin part of origin. Some people even think that eastern Sandžakians are created mostly from Albanian men and Serbian women. It is exaggeration, but they really have high amount or clear Albanian Y DNA. In eastern Sandžak still exist older people in rural areas who know Albanian language and whose descendants are declared Bosniaks https://youtu.be/2PPx9diQKs0?t=323
I have seen two Bosniak results from Rožaje and they score about 20% Baltic, that is not far away from Albanian average and it is same as average for Albanians from Montenegro. Rožaje, Plav and Gusinje are in the eastern part of eastern Sandžak, and Albanian input is the strongest in that places.
In eastern Sandžak live quite more Muslims/Bosniaks than in western. Eastern Sandžakians are mainstream Sandžakians.

Sandžakian wedding. Albanian 'shota' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shota_(dance) is there in the first half of video as in every Sandžakian gathering, and guy at 0:05 - 0:10 and 3:43 (with a drum) has a traditional Gheg Albanian costume with black Albanian eagle on his back.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM


Sandžakian song about Sandžak.


https://youtu.be/MLXmhmCZkdo

[Aspirin]

Sandžakian wedding. Albanian 'shota' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shota_(dance) is there in the first half of video as in every Sandžakian gathering, and guy at 0:05 - 0:10 and 3:43 (with a drum) has a traditional Gheg Albanian costume with black Albanian eagle on his back.


https://youtu.be/2tim0_dCByM

Sandžakian song about Sandžak.


https://youtu.be/MLXmhmCZkdo

First video looks like one of these Kurdish weddings I see sometimes via Youtube recommendation. Song from the second video sound like Romanian Gypsy manele, even this man's specific voice intonation is identical to how Gypsies sing.

[Varda]

First video looks like one of these Kurdish weddings I see sometimes via Youtube recommendation. Song from the second video sound like Romanian Gypsy manele, even this man's specific voice intonation is identical to how Gypsies sing.

Balkan Muslims are pretty oriental/Ottoman influenced culturally. In the no so distant past they had even stronger oriental/Ottoman cultural influence than today. For example Bosnian Muslims before WW2 were by far more oriental than after war. In communist Yugoslavia after 1945. they adopted many European cultural patterns and became more similar to their Christian neighbors than for centuries before.
Down on the video is Sarajevo in 1941. From the beginning to 3:42 are local Muslims/Bosniaks who are dressed Middle Eastern and women are dressed like women in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, their environment look Anatolian/Middle Eastern. Since 3:43 are mostly Serbs from Ilijaš near Sarajevo who look regular European and totally different than Bosniaks. There is two Gypsy musicians on the video as well.


http://youtu.be/kFSx2QKiOrU

Even some Balkan Christians who were for a long time under the Ottoman rule and lived near Muslims or together with them have significant oriental cultural influence (same case is with Andalusian Spaniards who have cultural influence from Arabs-Moors).
'Galichnik Wedding' of Mijaks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks), music is oriental and their costumes are pulling towards the Vlachs and Albanians (pants are similar as traditional one of Gheg Albanians, and other look like traditional Aromanian).


https://youtu.be/1WLndoEd6JA

[Atlantic Reptilian]

First video looks like one of these Kurdish weddings I see sometimes via Youtube recommendation. Song from the second video sound like Romanian Gypsy manele, even this man's specific voice intonation is identical to how Gypsies sing.

Balkan Muslims are pretty oriental/Ottoman influenced culturally. In the no so distant past they had even stronger oriental/Ottoman cultural influence than today. For example Bosnian Muslims before WW2 were by far more oriental than after war. In communist Yugoslavia after 1945. they adopted many European cultural patterns and became more similar to their Christian neighbors than for centuries before.
Down on the video is Sarajevo in 1941. From the beginning to 3:42 are local Muslims/Bosniaks who are dressed Middle Eastern and women are dressed like women in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, their environment look Anatolian/Middle Eastern. Since 3:43 are mostly Serbs from Ilijaš near Sarajevo who look regular European and totally different than Bosniaks. There is two Gypsy musicians on the video as well.

This is ridiculous. How do you know that those are Bosniaks? It's a metropolitan area and all kinds of muslims will be there, not only Bosniaks, so there is other influence than in just the areas where you only find Bosniaks. I, nor any of my relatives, have ever seen such clothing. In fact first time I ever heard about it was from this forum.
Also, these covering were used by the Women's Antifa movement during WW2 in order to i.e. smuggle stuff past German soldiers during the occupation xD

They always had European cultural patterns because they have always been European.

The area is called "stari grad" meaning old town and is one of the oldest areas of the Sarajevo, and is known for being a marketplace for selling stuff including religious and traditional stuff, for Bosniaks being the Fez

This is a better example of what Bosniak traditional clothing looks like:
https://nationalclothing.org/images/2020/06/Folk-dance.jpg
and for an outsider it looks very similar to traditional Serb clothing:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Srpska_nosnja.jpg

[Dušan]

This is ridiculous. How do you know that those are Bosniaks? It's a metropolitan area and all kinds of muslims will be there, not only Bosniaks, so there is other influence than in just the areas where you only find Bosniaks. I, nor any of my relatives, have ever seen such clothing. In fact first time I ever heard about it was from this forum.


No, all these Muslims in hijabs in Bosnia were locals.
There were no Arabs or Turks, or any other Muslim ethnicity in Bosnia.

[Varda]

This is ridiculous. How do you know that those are Bosniaks? It's a metropolitan area and all kinds of muslims will be there, not only Bosniaks, so there is other influence than in just the areas where you only find Bosniaks. I, nor any of my relatives, have ever seen such clothing. In fact first time I ever heard about it was from this forum.
Also, these covering were used by the Women's Antifa movement during WW2 in order to i.e. smuggle stuff past German soldiers during the occupation xD

They always had European cultural patterns because they have always been European.

The area is called "stari grad" meaning old town and is one of the oldest areas of the Sarajevo, and is known for being a marketplace for selling stuff including religious and traditional stuff, for Bosniaks being the Fez

This is a better example of what Bosniak traditional clothing looks like
and for an outsider it looks very similar to traditional clothing.

Sarajevo had few non-Bosniak Muslims during the Ottoman period. They left Sarajevo in 1878. when AH occupeid Bosna and Herzegovinia.

[Dušan]

This is shortly after the WW2.

Niqab girls are holding signs where it is written: "Long live Tito", "Long live Stalin" xD

https://stav.ba/cms/uploads/2021/02/058ec59643637edc1316ecf9cfdf3694.jpg

[Dušan]

This is a better example of what Bosniak traditional clothing looks like:
https://nationalclothing.org/images/2020/06/Folk-dance.jpg


These were peasants.

Read this:

The practice of covering a woman's face applies only to urban Bosnian environments. In the villages, the situation was completely different.

"The village Muslim woman, due to her specific position and participation in agricultural production, moved freely around the village and rarely hid her face from strangers. If she did, she did so by covering her head and shoulders with a larger scarf (bašča), and only wealthier women, if they were going outside the village or into the city, wore a fereja or a zar (part of the city costume). In general, it can be said that the custom of hiding the face among rural Muslim women was not fully accepted," explains Beljkašić-Hadžidedić.




Praksa pokrivanja ženskog lica odnosi se samo na gradske bosanske sredine. Na selima je situacija bila potpuno drugačija.

“Seoska muslimanska žena, zbog svog specifičnog položaja i učešća u poljoprivrednoj proizvodnji, slobodno se kretala po selu i rijetko je skrivala lice od stranih osoba. Ako je to i činila, to je činila prekrivajući glavu i ramena većom maramom (baščom), a samo imućnije žene, i to ako idu van sela ili u grad, oblačile su feredžu ili zar (dio gradske nošnje). Općenito se može reći da običaj sakrivanja lica kod seoskih muslimanskih žena nije bio u potpunosti prihvaćen”, objašnjava Beljkašić-Hadžidedić.


https://stav.ba/vijest/kako-je-jugoslavija-zabranila-nosenje-zara-i-feredze/736

[Atlantic Reptilian]

These were peasants.

Read this:

The practice of covering a woman's face applies only to urban Bosnian environments. In the villages, the situation was completely different.

"The village Muslim woman, due to her specific position and participation in agricultural production, moved freely around the village and rarely hid her face from strangers. If she did, she did so by covering her head and shoulders with a larger scarf (bašča), and only wealthier women, if they were going outside the village or into the city, wore a fereja or a zar (part of the city costume). In general, it can be said that the custom of hiding the face among rural Muslim women was not fully accepted," explains Beljkašić-Hadžidedić.

This makes more sense. It's seemed more like a trend (like in the cities) than the norm for the entire land.

But I have rich ancestors too and they never hid nor wanted to hide their faces. They dressed as they wanted but never hid themselves. That mentality is just not present. But I have heard such stuff about women who married Albanians and whose husband was jealous and wanted to keep the wife inside the house etc.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

No, all these Muslims in hijabs in Bosnia were locals.
There were no Arabs or Turks, or any other Muslim ethnicity in Bosnia.

Sarajevo had few non-Bosniak Muslims during the Ottoman period. They left Sarajevo in 1878. when AH occupeid Bosna and Herzegovinia.

That's not true. Since they were declared muslims and not necessarily Bosniaks, they could be muslim serbs, muslim croats, Sandzak etc.

AFAIK there were never a significant amount of Arabs/Turks in Bosnia.



This is shortly after the WW2.

Niqab girls are holding signs where it is written: "Long live Tito", "Long live Stalin" xD

https://stav.ba/cms/uploads/2021/02/058ec59643637edc1316ecf9cfdf3694.jpg

These could actually be anyone since they were used by the Women's Antifascist Front of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The burqa enabled them to carry various illicit material, including guns, without the risk of being searched. It was used for this purpose even by the AFŽ activists who did not normally wear it, including Catholic and Orthodox women.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Antifascist_Front_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegov ina

[Dušan]

That's not true. Since they were declared muslims and not necessarily Bosniaks, they could be muslim serbs, muslim croats, Sandzak etc.

AFAIK there were never a significant amount of Arabs/Turks in Bosnia.


All of Muslims in Bosnia are either by origin islamicized Serbs or islamicized Croats.

Bosniak as a term never was widespread until 1993.
Until that you were known as simply - Muslims.


Although of our origin, you were never accepted as Serbs because you were not Orthodox Christians.

Noone would accept you as part of us.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

All of Muslims in Bosnia are either by origin islamicized Serbs or islamicized Croats.

Bosniak as a term never was widespread until 1993.
Until that you were known as simply - Muslims.


Although of our origin, you were never accepted as Serbs because you were not Orthodox Christians.

Noone would accept you as part of us.

"we" are not Serbs, lol. "we" are Bosnians. Bosniak term has existed even before Yugoslav Socialist State, in the A-H army there were Bosniak soldiers. It's ridiculous to say that this population is simply only islamized people of nearby ethnic groups, since they weren't even considered Serbs/Croats when they were Christian. xD

What you will not accept however is that some of your Serbs decided to become muslim, despite being orthodox from the beginning.

[Dušan]

"we" are not Serbs, lol. "we" are Bosnians. Bosniak term has existed even before Yugoslav Socialist State, in the A-H army there were Bosniak soldiers.


What you will not accept however is that some of your Serbs decided to become muslim, despite being orthodox.

Bosnian was only regional term.
Turkish version of it is "Bosniak", and Muslims took it as their new national name in 1993.

There was never tribe called Bosnian.
Area of todays Bosnia was settled by Serbs and Croats - Read De administrando imperio.

No Bosnian tribe ever existed.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Bosnian was only regional term.
Turkish version of it is "Bosniak", and Muslims took it as their new national name in 1993.

There was never tribe called Bosnian.
Area of todays Bosnia was settled by Serbs and Croats - Read De administrando imperio.

No Bosnian tribe ever existed.
No, Bosniak means muslim from Bosnian lands, meaning someone whose ancestors come from Bosna. This population has existed in this area for a very long time and to think otherwise is to ignore i.e. The Kingdom of Bosnia and even their Bosnian Church which showed quite frankly that they didn't consider themselves Croats or Serbs.

If you don't understand this then look at people's mentality and you will see who is who.

Slavic tribes existed, which would eventually form different ethnicities. Doesn't mean that they were ever considered the same but rather that they have similar origins from the beginning.

[Dušan]

No, Bosniak means muslim from Bosnian lands, meaning someone whose ancestors come from Bosna. This population has existed in this area for a very long time and to think otherwise is to ignore i.e. The Kingdom of Bosnia and even their Bosnian Church which showed quite frankly that they didn't consider themselves Croats or Serbs.

If you don't understand this then look at people's mentality and you will see who is who.

Slavic tribes existed, which would eventually form different ethnicities. Doesn't mean that they were ever considered the same but rather that they have similar origins from the beginning.

Wrong, large majority of Muslims in Novi Pazar in Serbia considered them Bosniaks although they have not ancestors from Bosnia.
Term Bosniak is used by most of Slavic speaking Muslims in ex-Yugoslavia.

Once again, historical records clearly shows that Bosnia was settled by Serbs and Croats.
In Ottoman times some of them got islamicized + islamicized settlers from surrounding area of Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia = you get todays Bosniaks.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Wrong, large majority of Muslims in Novi Pazar in Serbia considered them Bosniaks although they have not ancestors from Bosnia.
Term Bosniak is used by most of Slavic speaking Muslims in ex-Yugoslavia.
Yes, at some point the term Bosniak came to mean most of Slav muslims in former Yugoslavia, but it doesn't really make sense because some of them have no ancestry from Bosnia, hence it's better if they are considered muslim Serbs (Sandzak) depending on their ancestry etc., this is however not what Bosniak meant in i.e. Austro-Hungary and earlier.


Once again, historical records clearly shows that Bosnia was settled by Serbs and Croats.
Show me what, and where that is said.

In Ottoman times some of them got islamicized + islamicized settlers from surrounding area of Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia = you get todays Bosniaks.
The first part is mostly true for those who were followers of the Bosnian Church called bosnjani, the latter people are actually not ethnically Bosniak, so they don't really count since your religion doesn't really change your genetics and ancestry.

[Dušan]

Yes, at some point the term Bosniak came to mean most of Slav muslims in former Yugoslavia, but it doesn't really make sense because some of them have no ancestry from Bosnia, hence it's better if they are considered muslim Serbs (Sandzak) depending on their ancestry etc., this is however not what Bosniak meant in i.e. Austro-Hungary and earlier.


Are you aware that large chunk of Bosnian Muslims actually settled in Bosnia from surrounding areas, after these areas were liberated from Ottomans?

All these areas in ex-Yugoslavia were in Ottoman ocupation in some part of history, and there was islamisation of local population.

https://i.redd.it/6ly18e8b7q961.jpg

After Austria took Ottoman parts of todays Croatia in 17-18th century, and Serbia liberated itself in 19th century, guess where all these islamized population took refuge???

They took refuge in Bosnia, because it stayed longer in Ottoman / Muslim rule, until 1878.

There are whole list new settlement in Bosnia recorded for Muslim settlers from todays Serbia and Croatia.


These people are not related with medieval Bosnia at all.




Show me what, and where that is said.


Read De Administrando Imperio.





The first part is mostly true for those who were followers of the Bosnian Church called bosnjani, the latter people are actually not ethnically Bosniak, so they don't really count since your religion doesn't really change your genetics and ancestry.


Read first paragraph.