Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews

[Leto]

Genome-wide data from medieval German Jews show that the Ashkenazi founder event pre-dated the 14th century
Link (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867422013782)


Highlights

• Genome-wide data for 33 Jewish individuals from 14th-century Erfurt, Germany
• Medieval and modern Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) have similar ancestral genetic sources
• Medieval AJ were genetically heterogeneous, likely divided into two or more groups
• The individuals descend from an extreme founder event shared with modern AJ

Summary

We report genome-wide data from 33 Ashkenazi Jews (AJ), dated to the 14th century, obtained following a salvage excavation at the medieval Jewish cemetery of Erfurt, Germany. The Erfurt individuals are genetically similar to modern AJ, but they show more variability in Eastern European-related ancestry than modern AJ. A third of the Erfurt individuals carried a mitochondrial lineage common in modern AJ and eight carried pathogenic variants known to affect AJ today. These observations, together with high levels of runs of homozygosity, suggest that the Erfurt community had already experienced the major reduction in size that affected modern AJ. The Erfurt bottleneck was more severe, implying substructure in medieval AJ. Overall, our results suggest that the AJ founder event and the acquisition of the main sources of ancestry pre-dated the 14th century and highlight late medieval genetic heterogeneity no longer present in modern AJ.

Quantitative ancestry modeling

We used qpAdm to test quantitative models for the ancestral sources of EAJ (STAR Methods). Based on the PCA above and previous modeling (Xue et al., 2017), we considered a model where EAJ is a mixture of the following sources: Southern European (South Italians or North Italians), Middle Eastern (Druze, Egyptians, Bedouins, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, or Saudis), and Eastern European (Russians). We used modern populations as sources, as modeling with ancient sources was unsuccessful (Data S1, section 7). Multiple models with South-Italians were plausible (p>0.05; Table S3), which would be consistent with historical models pointing to the Italian peninsula as the source for the AJ population (Data S1, section 16; though see below for alternatives and caveats). The mean admixture proportions (over all of our plausible models; Table S3) were 65% South Italy, 19% ME, and 16% East-EU (Figure 3A). We validated that our results did not qualitatively change when using only transversions vs. all SNPs, a different outgroup population, or fewer SNPs (Table S3; Data S1, section 7). Estimates of the admixture time were unreliable in our setting (Data S1, section 8).

Models with other sources, in particular Mediterranean, could also fit the EAJ data (Data S1, section 7). A model with North Italians as a source (Table S3) had ancestry proportions 37% North Italy, 43% ME, and 20% East-EU (Figure 3A). Models with Greek as a source had average ancestry proportions 51% Greek, 32% ME, and 17% East-EU (Table S3). Models with Spanish or North African sources (in addition to ME and East-EU) were not plausible. A model with all Levant populations merged together as the ME source fit the EAJ data (p = 0.07), with ancestry proportions 65% South Italy, 19% Levant, and 16% East-EU. A model with all Mediterranean populations merged as a single source (Middle Eastern, Greek, and Italian, with East-EU as the other source) fit the data (p = 0.11) with ancestry proportions 89% Mediterranean and 11% East-EU. Models with a Western European source (Germans) instead of Russians were not plausible. There was also no support for a minor ancestry component from East Asians.

We next used qpAdm to study the relations between EAJ, MAJ, and other Jewish groups (Data S1, section 7). Erfurt-ME could be modeled with Turkish (Sephardi) Jews (97% admixture proportion) and Germans (3%). Erfurt-EU could be modeled with Erfurt-ME (69%) and Russians (31%). Using a model with South Italian, Lebanese, and Russian sources for each EAJ individual (Figure 3B), we found striking variability in the Eastern European component, which was on average 33% in Erfurt-EU individuals but was not inferred in 9 of 13 Erfurt-ME individuals. Similar variability was observed using a North Italian source (Data S1, section 7). MAJ could be modeled with Erfurt-ME (87%) and Russians (13%), or Erfurt-ME (86%) and Germans (14%). MAJ could also be modeled as having 60% ancestry from Erfurt-ME and 40% from Erfurt-EU (Data S1, section 7).

Taken together, our results suggest that Erfurt-ME is a population genetically close to Sephardi Jews that has left nearly unadmixed descendants in modern AJ of Western European origin, while Erfurt-EU has experienced additional Eastern European-related admixture. The majority of AJ today likely formed as a nearly even mixture of populations represented by the two Erfurt groups. Linguistic, cultural, and onomastic studies have found differences between AJ from Western Europe, representing the early Rhineland communities, and AJ from Central and Eastern Europe (Data S1, section 16). Our results suggest the hypothesis that Erfurt-ME and Erfurt-EU may be related to the Western and Central/Eastern AJ groups, respectively. The non-genetic differences nearly vanished by the 16th century (Beider, 2015), consistent with the lack of major genetic structure in modern AJ.

We caution that the specific identity of the source populations that we inferred, as well as the admixture proportions, should not be considered precise. This is due to the multiple Southern European populations that fit the EAJ data, as well as our reliance on modern populations as a proxy of the true ancestral sources. The levels of Middle Eastern ancestry in Italy were historically variable (Aneli et al., 2021; Antonio et al., 2019; De Angelis et al., 2021; Posth et al., 2021; Raveane et al., 2019), and Middle Eastern populations have also experienced demographic changes in the past two millennia, particularly African admixture (Moorjani et al., 2011) (Data S1, section 16). Under the extensive set of models we studied, the ME ancestry in EAJ is estimated in the range 19%–43% and the Mediterranean European ancestry in the range 37%–65%. However, the true ancestry proportions could be higher or lower than implied by these ranges (Data S1, section 16). Our results therefore should only be interpreted to suggest that AJ ancestral sources have links to populations living in Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East today.
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0092867422013782-fx1_lrg.jpg

[J. Ketch]

bump

This deserves more attention. The origin of the Jews is one of the few remaining interesting mysteries of population genetics.

[rothaer]

bump

This deserves more attention. The origin of the Jews is one of the few remaining interesting mysteries of population genetics.

True, especially as this topic is at a high risk of being influenced by religiously fed narratives and thus getting biased. Since quite a while I'm pointing out that modelling AJ with Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian is much more plausible historically and you see in this pic (from that paper) what then happens to the Middle Eastern (ME)/Lebanese proportion:

https://i.imgur.com/bUPNPG6.jpg

Essentially always I got upset and rejecting reactions by Jews on this.

[Lemminkäinen]

The Russian proportion is interesting, because the East Slavic expansion started after the Migration Period, but the genetic bifurcation between east and west Slavs happened later. The migration reached Novgorod probably during the 8th century, Kiev earlier. Taking into account the migration time I have to ask in which geographic position Ashkenazim got this admixture. In Poland, Ukraine or more to the east.

[Russki]

The Russian proportion is interesting, because the East Slavic expansion started after the Migration Period, but the genetic bifurcation between east and west Slavs happened later. The migration reached Novgorod probably during the 8th century, Kiev earlier. Taking into account the migration time I have to ask in which geographic position Ashkenazim got this admixture. In Poland, Ukraine or more to the east.


Please read the paper before commenting, you annoying Fingolian autist.

Czechs are the origin of admixture, but you can add Russians or any population you want in the model (qpAdm works in a similar way to Vahaduo).


https://sun9-74.userapi.com/impg/u8jS-cGkCTifMYkj1cURmLg4O1AZzY-LpxFwRw/Hx5WdxKuFTs.jpg?size=605x864&quality=95&sign=a7adbfd4bbe7f806f963331bc2647e27&type=album

[Lemminkäinen]

Please read the paper before commenting, you annoying Fingolian autist.

Czechs are the origin of admixture, but you can add Russians or any population you want in the model (qpAdm works in a similar way to Vahaduo).


https://sun9-74.userapi.com/impg/u8jS-cGkCTifMYkj1cURmLg4O1AZzY-LpxFwRw/Hx5WdxKuFTs.jpg?size=605x864&quality=95&sign=a7adbfd4bbe7f806f963331bc2647e27&type=album

In quotes of the OP East Slavic samples were Russians.


Based on the PCA above and previous modeling (Xue et al., 2017), we considered a model where EAJ is a mixture of the following sources: Southern European (South Italians or North Italians), Middle Eastern (Druze, Egyptians, Bedouins, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, or Saudis), and Eastern European (Russians).


Models with a Western European source (Germans) instead of Russians were not plausible


MAJ could be modeled with Erfurt-ME (87%) and Russians (13%), or Erfurt-ME (86%) and Germans (14%).


Of course they MAY be related to ancient Bohemians. There was no mentioning that Russians descend from those areas. I asked where those Russian samples could have been during the eastern migration. I have experienced that geneticists are not always aware of corresponding history.
Take your pills as your doctor prescribed.

[rothaer]

In quotes of the OP East Slavic samples were Russians.

Of course they MAY be related to ancient Bohemians. There was no mentioning that Russians descend from those areas. I asked where those Russian samples could have been during the eastern migration. (...)

Russians have nothing to do with the Erfurt Jews. There were just (modern) Russians used in that modelling.

Jews coming from Silesia and Bohemia to Erfurt is no genetic conclusion but a historical record.

Btw, Davidski criticized that Russians were used (instead of Slovaks or Poles) as they do hide existent minor East Asian contributions, which may in fact be indicative of some Khazars.

[Russki]

Russians hide minor East Asian contributions


Can we look at the models?

I remember you argued that EHG should be used instead of Yamnaya for modeling (because much of EHG entered Europe directly without Yamnaya) and in this modeling Russians get 0% East Asian contribution.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png


Btw, Davidski in his blog about Erfurt Jews used "North Russian" reference, which is a different story.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/06/my-take-on-erfurt-jews.html


https://sun9-9.userapi.com/impg/6oAq-3ggZ2_FUjBS6kbT1lAsovhmVN3kWIrEag/Ox2SilYkkbg.jpg?size=1500x502&quality=96&sign=9d187eead67072be77c9d43bf3d90c4e&type=album

[rothaer]

Can we look at the models?

I remember you argued that EHG should be used instead of Yamnaya for modeling (because much of EHG entered Europe directly without Yamnaya) and in this modeling Russians get 0% East Asian contribution.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png




Btw, Davidski in his blog about Erfurt Jews used "North Russian" reference, which is a different story.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/06/my-take-on-erfurt-jews.html


https://sun9-9.userapi.com/impg/6oAq-3ggZ2_FUjBS6kbT1lAsovhmVN3kWIrEag/Ox2SilYkkbg.jpg?size=1500x502&quality=96&sign=9d187eead67072be77c9d43bf3d90c4e&type=album

Yes, like WHG and ENF are also separated though they were not at 5 kybp (which is Yamnaya's time period). With EHG it looks like this (EA is East Asian):

https://i.imgur.com/wnr2CoD.jpg

I guess that are North Russians that have EA (?).

It would be interesing what Russian references there were used in the modelling. Russians or North Russians, however, I just quoted what Davidski criticized and that was the usage of Russian in modelling. Also, because it's clear that the Slavic contribution in that Jews did not come from Russians. And iirc he said that if they are not used, there can be East Asian traces found in some of that Jews, traces, that were not displayed before. I guess he concluded that then seemingly the Russians had hid this EA.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

PCA with Erfurt Jews and neighboring population of Medieval Krakauer Berg (quite East Euro in appearance).

https://i.imgur.com/aXIZ6wE.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Can we look at the models?

I remember you argued that EHG should be used instead of Yamnaya for modeling (because much of EHG entered Europe directly without Yamnaya) and in this modeling Russians get 0% East Asian contribution.

https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png

In (some) Russian there is clearly a bit of extra-ANE East Asian from earlier Finno-Ugric populations.


Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
Distance: 0.0573% / 0.05725940
36.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
30.6 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
23.1 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
7.8 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
1.7 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 0.0574% / 0.05741332
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36.2 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
13.9 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
9.6 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
0.9 CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
0.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.4 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%

Target: Russian_Ryazan
Distance: 0.0559% / 0.05588506
38.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
30.5 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
19.2 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
8.7 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
0.2 CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%

In Eurogenes K13, ANE would score Amerindian but not Siberian which Russians do.

https://i.imgur.com/W3aFE7M.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw, there is some East Asia in the most mixed group of Erfurt Jews, but it will probably have been brought by Turkic-speaking peoples, not Russians as the paper claims.


Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt1
Distance: 0.0231% / 0.02306210
31.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
18.0 Levant_PPNC:I1699__BC_6750__Cov_25.23%
17.6 Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
14.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
9.9 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
8.2 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
0.1 RUS_Sidelkino_HG:Sidelkino__BC_9371__Cov_84.56%

Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt2
Distance: 0.0261% / 0.02613405
28.2 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
19.3 Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
14.7 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
13.7 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
12.1 Levant_PPNC:I1699__BC_6750__Cov_25.23%
7.9 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
3.5 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001__BC_13461__Cov_73.74%
0.6 CHN_Amur_River_9200BP:NE45__BC_7291__Cov_9.49%

Target: DEU_MA_Erfurt3
Distance: 0.0284% / 0.02844173
39.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
20.7 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
17.6 Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
10.1 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
1.9 CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
0.1 MAR_Taforalt:TAF010__BC_12699__Cov_64.50%
0.1 JPN_Jomon:JpKa6904__BC_6870__Cov_99.62%

[Ajeje Brazorf]

True, especially as this topic is at a high risk of being influenced by religiously fed narratives and thus getting biased. Since quite a while I'm pointing out that modelling AJ with Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian is much more plausible historically and you see in this pic (from that paper) what then happens to the Middle Eastern (ME)/Lebanese proportion:

https://i.imgur.com/bUPNPG6.jpg

Essentially always I got upset and rejecting reactions by Jews on this.

The Mediterranean in Roman times was a melting pot; it is difficult to distinguish one thing from another. It is also not a given that the population the Jews mixed with as soon as they arrived in Italy was similar to today's southern Italians. They analyzed 1 (n=1) Pompeian and plotted well south of modern southern Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/IpWHyPJ.png

[Lemminkäinen]

Russians have nothing to do with the Erfurt Jews. There were just (modern) Russians used in that modelling.

Jews coming from Silesia and Bohemia to Erfurt is no genetic conclusion but a historical record.

Btw, Davidski criticized that Russians were used (instead of Slovaks or Poles) as they do hide existent minor East Asian contributions, which may in fact be indicative of some Khazars.

Yeah. Maybe, I'm not sure of the Khazar connection. I was interested in why they used Russians in modelling Ashkenazim. I didn't say it is wrong. You know that you can use many combinations in modelling one population.

[Russki]

In (some) Russian there is clearly a bit of extra-ANE East Asian from earlier Finno-Ugric populations.


Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
Distance: 0.0573% / 0.05725940
36.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
30.6 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
23.1 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
7.8 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
1.7 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 0.0574% / 0.05741332
38.2 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
36.2 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
13.9 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
9.6 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
0.9 CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%
0.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.4 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%

Target: Russian_Ryazan
Distance: 0.0559% / 0.05588506
38.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
30.5 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
19.2 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
8.7 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
0.2 CHN_Boshan_N:BS__BC_7175__Cov_86.88%


Ukrainian Mesolithic can be regarded as EHG but is clearly WHG-shifted compared to Karelia HG.

So just playing around with the models.


https://sun9-79.userapi.com/impg/uf8DeoWdtYC-UCx1WjSFV8BpFZ7X4Cc_2jPc8w/oyOuLDepmZw.jpg?size=676x346&quality=95&sign=cfbf968f1fbb5a88a2162f6367fedb45&type=album

https://sun9-63.userapi.com/impg/0oqTY2KWDgI17ZzXUyVcxvfPMVFdgf0-6-30BQ/wwger1ILxj8.jpg?size=615x908&quality=95&sign=f3151e5183ca05d1951adc456d65331b&type=album




In Eurogenes K13, ANE would score Amerindian but not Siberian which Russians do.

https://i.imgur.com/W3aFE7M.png


It also scores 1,54% Oceanian which means K13 struggles to decipher admixture of ancient populations.

rothaer's Eurogenes K13 gives him 1,20% Siberian but on G25 he doesn't get any.

In his context it can't come from anything other than EHG.



UPD: I quickly found a Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer (not even a predominantly EHG population) which would score some Siberian.


https://sun9-80.userapi.com/impg/CoHMIPAQgB1fJpEroE3ls_erKnRn0-art6_EYQ/kRF_f82Ld_E.jpg?size=408x616&quality=95&sign=6214b3ce39cbd03d472d0fc38275d32e&type=album

[SouthDutch7991]

True, especially as this topic is at a high risk of being influenced by religiously fed narratives and thus getting biased. Since quite a while I'm pointing out that modelling AJ with Southern Italian instead of Northern Italian is much more plausible historically and you see in this pic (from that paper) what then happens to the Middle Eastern (ME)/Lebanese proportion:

https://i.imgur.com/bUPNPG6.jpg

Essentially always I got upset and rejecting reactions by Jews on this.

Well it's funny because I once asked the question; are AJ's just more or less Southern Italian converts? I think the real answer will be hard to find until we can find samples in the process of admixture, or in the case of the alternate theory, southern italian jews that clearly show recent southern italian ancestry and no recent west asian ancestry that differs from typical imperial southern italians.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Well it's funny because I once asked the question; are AJ's just more or less Southern Italian converts? I think the real answer will be hard to find until we can find samples in the process of admixture, or in the case of the alternate theory, southern italian jews that clearly show recent southern italian ancestry and no recent west asian ancestry that differs from typical imperial southern italians.

If we compare the average of individuals who lived in Italy during the Roman Imperial period and Italian Jews, the latter have less EEF, more Middle Eastern and North African ancestry. I personally believe that there is a separate ethnogenesis.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Ukrainian Mesolithic can be regarded as EHG but is clearly WHG-shifted compared to Karelia HG.

So just playing around with the models.

https://sun9-79.userapi.com/impg/uf8DeoWdtYC-UCx1WjSFV8BpFZ7X4Cc_2jPc8w/oyOuLDepmZw.jpg?size=676x346&quality=95&sign=cfbf968f1fbb5a88a2162f6367fedb45&type=album

https://sun9-63.userapi.com/impg/0oqTY2KWDgI17ZzXUyVcxvfPMVFdgf0-6-30BQ/wwger1ILxj8.jpg?size=615x908&quality=95&sign=f3151e5183ca05d1951adc456d65331b&type=album

It also scores 1,54% Oceanian which means K13 struggles to decipher admixture of ancient populations.

rothaer's Eurogenes K13 gives him 1,20% Siberian but on G25 he doesn't get any.

In his context it can't come from anything other than EHG.

UPD: I quickly found a Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer (not even a predominantly EHG population) which would score some Siberian.

https://sun9-80.userapi.com/impg/CoHMIPAQgB1fJpEroE3ls_erKnRn0-art6_EYQ/kRF_f82Ld_E.jpg?size=408x616&quality=95&sign=6214b3ce39cbd03d472d0fc38275d32e&type=album

Yes, individually there may be oddities, I myself on the raw data converted to 23andMe V3 get 1% East_Asian. What makes the difference, however, is how a population comes out on average.


Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_188-373
Distance: 0.0484% / 0.04838905
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18.9 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
16.0 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
12.7 RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
8.9 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.2 TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432__BC_8750__Cov_13.58%
0.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_841-936
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26.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
23.2 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
7.1 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
3.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
3.3 RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
2.3 Levant_PPNB:I1707__BC_7619__Cov_12.73%
0.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1012-1429
Distance: 0.0510% / 0.05095259
34.6 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
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16.1 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
9.1 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.9 Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
1.9 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
1.3 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.3 CHN_Amur_River_11000BP:NE-8__BC_9313__Cov_30.14%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1634-1787
Distance: 0.0547% / 0.05472398
50.6 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
37.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
8.8 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
1.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
1.7 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

[Russki]

Yes, individually there may be oddities, I myself on the raw data converted to 23andMe V3 get 1% East_Asian. What makes the difference, however, is how a population comes out on average.


Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_188-373
Distance: 0.0484% / 0.04838905
40.8 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
18.9 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
16.0 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
12.7 RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
8.9 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.2 TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432__BC_8750__Cov_13.58%
0.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_841-936
Distance: 0.0538% / 0.05384962
33.3 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
26.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
23.2 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
7.1 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
3.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
3.3 RUS_Lena_River_EN:irk007__BC_6851__Cov_83.37%
2.3 Levant_PPNB:I1707__BC_7619__Cov_12.73%
0.9 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1012-1429
Distance: 0.0510% / 0.05095259
34.6 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
33.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
16.1 UKR_Meso:I1733__BC_8250__Cov_21.98%
9.1 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
2.9 Levant_PPNC:I1708__BC_6750__Cov_28.22%
1.9 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
1.3 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%
0.3 CHN_Amur_River_11000BP:NE-8__BC_9313__Cov_30.14%

Target: RUS_Vladimir_AD_1634-1787
Distance: 0.0547% / 0.05472398
50.6 UKR_Meso:I1763__BC_8131__Cov_70.72%
37.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004__BC_7950__Cov_67.13%
8.8 GEO_CHG:KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
1.8 CHN_Amur_River_10600BP:NE-3__BC_8678__Cov_45.59%
1.7 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954__BC_8212__Cov_79.73%


You didn't address the part where I pointed out that Ukrainian Mesolithic is not purely EHG.


https://sun9-54.userapi.com/impg/bCpiaAicY3jFS3cUe1IrXGqC8kJ0JAqCgx5Vzg/GOxtW2id25k.jpg?size=690x340&quality=95&sign=c64c1da1fbf8baee4d1a72182678e019&type=album


rothaer's 1.20% Siberian in K13 is indeed an oddity, but it's obviously EHG admixture being misread.

[gixajo]

I don't remember seeing the coordinates posted in the thread. Sorry if someone already posted them.

They are grouped into 3 different clusters.


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DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13866,0.106994,0.118817,0.006034,-0.014212,0.016311,-0.010319,-0.00282,0.004615,0.001636,0.014943,-0.006333,-0.000899,0.003717,0.00523,-0.012758,-0.003713,0.008996,0.003927,-0.003142,0.003877,-0.007362,-0.001607,0.001109,0.006386,-0.002754
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[SouthDutch7991]

If we compare the average of individuals who lived in Italy during the Roman Imperial period and Italian Jews, the latter have less EEF, more Middle Eastern and North African ancestry. I personally believe that there is a separate ethnogenesis.

Could the answer simply be an Italian to jewish conversion, coupled with a small admixture influx of near eastern jews?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

You didn't address the part where I pointed out that Ukrainian Mesolithic is not purely EHG.

It is, if by EHG we mean an intermediate population between WHG (R15) and ANE (AG3). RUS_Karelia_HG is too skewed toward ANE in this respect, but regardless of what we mean by EHG, the models I posted seem to have a better fit.

PCA with WHG/ANE-rich populations

https://i.imgur.com/MFlclA8.png


rothaer's 1.20% Siberian in K13 is indeed an oddity, but it's obviously EHG admixture being misread.

Yes, but this may apply on an individual basis, not on average. Tver-Yaroslavl and Ryazan still score more Siberian than virtually all EHGs, indicating that a legacy from those pre-Slavic Finno-Ugric populations, albeit minimal, is there.

https://i.imgur.com/eJaqSd1.png

[Russki]

It is, if by EHG we mean an intermediate population between WHG (R15) and ANE (AG3).


Nope, we don't mean that EHG is an even 50/50 between WHG and ANE.

EHG is mostly ANE.



but regardless of what we mean by EHG, the models I posted seem to have a better fit.


Try both Ukrainian HG and Karelian HG and get an even better fit.


https://sun9-28.userapi.com/impg/wRXCiaaGe8dgprLyf4hGGdJ07Yq8EOukkV4zxQ/Wm2yFuYQoJg.jpg?size=720x308&quality=95&sign=ee57ad34732bb86910f21c88778640fd&type=album



Yes, but this may apply on an individual basis, not on average. Tver-Yaroslavl and Ryazan still score more Siberian than virtually all EHGs


EHG score 15% Amerindian instead.

Amerindian and Siberian are easily interchangeable components in Eurogenes K13 form, with the only difference that Amerindian contains some West Eurasian admixture from the ANE itself.

15% Amerindian equals abt 12% Siberian, approximately.



legacy from those pre-Slavic Finno-Ugric populations, albeit minimal, is there.


Yes, and I always compare Russians with the existing Finnic populations.


https://i.imgur.com/B7tf3ry.png


I can also try with various EHG samples instead of ANE.

Those EHG samples keep coming out, the latest being Yu et al. 2023.

[SouthDutch7991]

I don't remember seeing the coordinates posted in the thread. Sorry if someone already posted them.

They are grouped into 3 different clusters.


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DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14850,0.103579,0.140143,0.013199,-0.017119,0.01908,-0.006136,-0.000235,0.011307,0.005113,0.004556,0.000974,-0.002098,-0.000743,0.007156,-0.004886,-0.012198,-0.008996,-0.003167,0.005782,-0.010005,-0.000749,-0.001484,0.012078,0.005543,0.002634
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14904,0.106994,0.116786,0.007165,-0.018411,0.023389,-0.008367,0.004935,0.010384,0.00225,0.016583,-0.004709,0.009591,0.001933,0.008395,0.000814,-0.008486,-0.022296,-0.002914,-0.001383,0,0.002246,-0.008903,0.002958,0.001687,0.003233
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.00568 4,0.002398,0.010555,-0.000138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000 812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347

Here's how they plot in G25 alongside other Jews. I have to wonder if what we're seeing with european/nafri jews is a proper cline.

https://imgur.com/Jn7dnC4.png