Scythians and other "Iranian Nomads" - European?

[Albion]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

Would you say they were European, Middle Eastern or a unique group. You can base it on genetics, history, traits or whatever, but what is your opinion?

Another question though - how were Turkics able to take over the former Iranian nomadic areas and did they assimilate or displace the former inhabitants and are there any ethnicities today descended from Iranian nomads (Ossetians?) ?

[bluesky]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

Would you say they were European, Middle Eastern or a unique group. You can base it on genetics, history, traits or whatever, but what is your opinion?

Another question though - how were Turkics able to take over the former Iranian nomadic areas and did they assimilate or displace the former inhabitants and are there any ethnicities today descended from Iranian nomads (Ossetians?) ?

They were european and today descended people from Iranian nomads are Ossetians,Croatians,Ukrainians,Bulgarians,Serbs, Kurds, Pashtun and Persians

[Han Cholo]

It's hard to define if they were European because the European geographical/cultural complex wasn't created yet. Iranian nomads were contemporary to Greeks, Assyrians and other very ancient ethnicities and predated Christianity/Islam.

At least original Iranians were of East European origin, but they picked many other elements on their way to the Eurasian steppes. At best it can be said that they were Eurasian (and fits with their geographical extent as well).

Modern day Iranian nations are of course not European (unless you consider Pashtuns and Persians as Europeans.) I'd say the "purest" Iranians are various Turkic ethnicities such as Volga Tatars, Chuvashes and various Slavic ones such as Russia or Ukraine. Then would be the Caucasus or various places in Central Asia.

[bluesky]

to me the purest iranians would be Ossetians,some Bulgarians,some Croatians possibly some serbs and some Ukranians, Kurds and Russians

[Redar14]

to me the purest iranians would be Ossetians,some Bulgarians,some Croatians possibly some serbs and some Ukranians, Kurds and Russians


Lol... You should check in encyclopedia definition of word "iranian". Slavs are relatives with ancient Iranians but we are different group!

I think that today's Pashtuns are the purest Iranian nation.

Pashtun Males:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2891087443_febb3893f2.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQke6wi9_KLAk8kH1U-9xnDu8Ai32h9qvExle28re5jSUqY5_qYm2U-E94b
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4695907679_8663750c96.jpg
http://bp3.blogger.com/_U7UfpQNlsGc/R4UIMzO9HAI/AAAAAAAABGs/4im3IsdDn94/s400/talibanwe.jpg

Ancient scythian mumies from Central Asia:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/MY_SITE/scy1br4.jpg
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/arz-nn-krol-tatuowany-hbfve5xs_pxgen_r_1100xa.jpg?w=600&h=399

[Redar14]

territory of Xiongnu ( other names 匈奴 or Huns) in 209 BC. They were protoplast for altaic people:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Hsiung-nu-Empire.png

Probably the earliest Xiongnu( 匈奴) looked similar like this Yakuts:

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2007/yakut01.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/2/2b/Yakut1.jpg
http://www.sakha-info.ru/chronika/2006/11/photo.jpg
http://www.floraberlin.de/soundbag/sbimages/maul.jpg

[Redar14]

Another question though - how were Turkics able to take over the former Iranian nomadic areas and did they assimilate or displace the former inhabitants

In the first centuries AD Iranic tribes in Central Asia were displacing by Xiongnu, Wusun (iranian-altaic confederation) and Yuezhi (eastern tocharian tribes). In Eastern Europe Sarmatians were thrown out from Ukrainian Steppes by Ostrogoths and Probably Slavs. During Migration Period the last european iranic tribes (Alans) went to Western Europe together with Goths and Wandals.

[bluesky]

I think that today's Pashtuns are the purest Iranian nation.

The pashtuns show quiet strong dravidian influences unlike the persians and kurds and ossetians... yes i have checked wikipedia but if you check again (not only wikipedia you can see that Croatians and bulgarians and some serbs are of iranian origin....

[Ar-Man]

They were european and today descended people from Iranian nomads are Ossetians,Croatians,Ukrainians,Bulgarians,Serbs, Kurds, Pashtun and Persians

Russians also, besides some finno-ugric and Germanic influences.

[Ar-Man]

Lol... You should check in encyclopedia definition of word "iranian". Slavs are relatives with ancient Iranians but we are different group!


I'm not an expert in this field, but I think Slavic languages are in another linguistic group, but in the same time they have very strong iranian background, I can say it for sure, for Russian language.

Check out this link, it's pretty interesting :) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism

[Austrvegr]

Would you say they were European, Middle Eastern or a unique group. You can base it on genetics, history, traits or whatever, but what is your opinion?

Yes, they were European by origin, genetics and race.


Another question though - how were Turkics able to take over the former Iranian nomadic areas and did they assimilate or displace the former inhabitants and are there any ethnicities today descended from Iranian nomads (Ossetians?) ?

Some Iranics were exterminated, some assimilated. Most of Turkic ethnicities have a varying share of Iranic genes.

Ossetians are just linguistic descendants of Iranics. By genes they are 99% Caucasian locals.

[Redar14]

Ossetians are just linguistic descendants of Iranics. By genes they are 99% Caucasian locals.

It's true! Ossetians, Kurds and Pers are only iranic speakers but they are totally different than Scythians, Sarmatians or Cimmerians.


The pashtuns show quiet strong dravidian influences unlike the persians and kurds and ossetians...

Half population of Pashtuns have haplogroup R1a just like Scythians, Pashtuns have dravidians and mongoloid influence but they are much more iranian than Kurds (iranized Semites).

[Unurautare]

My 2 cents: Steppe people=non-European by behavior,societal structure and culture; Eventually white-looking high caste Indians can be "European" as well(ofc they aren't).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Neolithic_expansion.svg

http://thesga.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Corum_Jonathan_Old_Europe_map_NYT.jpg

[Redar14]

My 2 cents: Steppe people=non-European by behavior,societal structure and culture; Eventually white-looking high caste Indians can be "European" as well(ofc they aren't).


Iranians from Eastern Europe and Central Asia had very different culture than modern europeans but they had totally european appearance.


I'm not an expert in this field, but I think Slavic languages are in another linguistic group, but in the same time they have very strong iranian background, I can say it for sure, for Russian language.

Check out this link, it's pretty interesting :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism

Iranic Slavic and Baltic languages are satem-group. This is cause of linguistic similarities but basically Balts are the closest for Slavs.

[Agrippa]

Yes, they were European in the narrower sense, at least those parts which were not more heavily mixed with Mongoloids or Turanian people of different origins.

At that time their culture was also part of the Indo-European spectrum and more complicated than it seems to be, if considering the different ways of life European Iranians lived.

There are no true heirs of their heritage, only partial one here and there. The true became mixed and took a different path, being assimilated by other people or were erradicated.

Closest come the Ossetians, PROBABLY, but even that needs more research on the genetic background of the Scythians. Also, the more Eastern tribes of the sphere, some Sarmatian groups, seem to have had a more Taurid element, going in a Pamiroid direction probably and having more Mongoloid tendencies. Those tribes in detail were sometimes more borderline, depending on their exact composition, as were those mixed with other non-European elements to a high degree, like mentioned.

[bluesky]

It's true! Ossetians, Kurds and Pers are only iranic speakers but they are totally different than Scythians, Sarmatians or Cimmerians.



Half population of Pashtuns have haplogroup R1a just like Scythians, Pashtuns have dravidians and mongoloid influence but they are much more iranian than Kurds (iranized Semites).

You clearly dont know anything firstly kurds ancestors are mainly medes and scythians the more north you go in the area "kurdistan" the more scythian descendants you see the more south you go the more median descendants you see but in central "kurdistan" there is a city called hakkari (i think thats the name) there you can obviously see that the people are very light and because they are probably scythian in origin because that was one of the scythians main city in middle east... And haplogroups doesnt show any thing kurds are totally including all kurdish people from all countries they are: 22% R1a, 10 % R1b and 17 % I2a while some parts have more I2a and R1a then others especially the north while persians have: 3 % I2a, 16,5% R1a and 6.5% R1b so as you can see the purest Iranians are between kurds and ossetians because ossetians are 4% R1a while as much as 42 % R1b

[Agrippa]

The Medes were Iranians too, probably even the same original stock, but they branched off earlier and mixed with different locals earlier.

Basically, for such people, you have always to consider where they went to. Same for the Celts, to a certain degree at least, or Germanics, Slavs etc. Difference is just the latter primarily mixed with Europeans, the Iranians in the Near East with - guess what...

[Redar14]

kurds are totally including all kurdish people from all countries they are: 22% R1a, 10 % R1b and 17 % I2a while some parts have more I2a and R1a then others especially the north while persians have: 3 % I2a, 16,5% R1a and 6.5% R1b so as you can see the purest Iranians are between kurds and ossetians because ossetians are 4% R1a while as much as 42 % R1b

You see, majority Kurds and Persians haven't iranian or even european origin and Ossetians are only iranic speakers.

[bluesky]

The Medes were Iranians too, probably even the same original stock, but they branched off earlier and mixed with different locals earlier.

Basically, for such people, you have always to consider where they went to. Same for the Celts as to a certain degree at least, or Germanics, Slavs etc. Difference is just the latter primarily mixed with Europeans, the Iranians in the Near East with - guess what...

Yes but who knows there might be "full blooded celts" left as there might be "full blooded medes/scyths" but those people there isnt much of..

[bluesky]

You see, majority Kurds and Persians haven't iranian or even european origin and Ossetians are only iranic speakers.

Where do you get this from? you live in your own world ok then polish people are slavicized somalians.. and we croatians dont have european origin or even human origin! we are of wolf origin :coffee:

[Redar14]

Where do you get this from? you live in your own world ok then polish people are slavicized somalians... and we croatians dont have european origin or even human origin! we are of wolf origin :coffee:


WTF... Are you drunk?

[bluesky]

WTF... Are you drunk?

I wish... no but seriously i was just showing you how retarded you sound...

[Pallantides]

Analysis of the HV1 sequence obtained from a male Scytho-Siberian's remains at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic revealed the individual possessed the N1a maternal lineage. The study also noted that haplogroup mtDNA N1a was found at a relatively high frequency in the southern fringes of the Eurasian steppe, Iran (8.3%). From this, a possible link to ancient populations presumed to have come from Europe that lived in the neighboring northwestern parts of the Subcontinent and Iran was suggested.

:cool:

[Mordid]

Where do you get this from? you live in your own world ok then polish people are slavicized somalians.. and we croatians dont have european origin or even human origin! we are of wolf origin :coffee:
You mad bro? :confused: What is your obsession with Kurds? Ah I get it, you're a Kurd.

[bluesky]

You mad bro? :confused: What is your obsession with Kurds? Ah I get it, you're a Kurd.

its not that i just hate when people is wrong on the internet i just made an example on how dumb he sounds and i wasnt only referring to kurds i ment ossetians,persians and kurds!

[x-class]

Gotta agree with Bluesky. But I respect Redar14's opinion.

[Han Cholo]

I wish... no but seriously i was just showing you how retarded you sound...

He sounds right, not retarded, because he's speaking the truth.

Kurds have lots of "Iranian influence" but overall their ancient Iranian (European looking) ancestry is very few. They have lots of aboriginal Paki influenced their Medic and other ancient Iranian ancestors picked on Pakistan and Afghanistan though, which is why they don't cluster fully with Armenians or Turks.

[Agrippa]

Yes but who knows there might be "full blooded celts" left as there might be "full blooded medes/scyths" but those people there isnt much of..

How do you define full blooded or even "pure race"?
Totally genetically unmixed nobody is, at least not in the major and more progressive populations.

If you want to find "more pure races and people", you have to search for some isolated primitives here and there, and that's no achievement neither.

But you can judge how much heritage they carry on, to what they are closer. I say the European element lives on in the Kurds f.e., that is VERY OBVIOUS, also Old Mediterranean elements, even more so. Genetically they are all mixed, phenotypically most too, but a minority represents phenotypes which came from just one ancestral population and in Kurds that's most of the time local Near Eastern, but sometimes more European or Old Mediterranean (Neolithic Eastern Mediterranoids).

[Redar14]

Golden scythian armor from Issyk-kul.


http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/arzan-goldenermann-4395081.jpg?w=600
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/arzan-isssyk-silksaki1.jpg
http://www.mrxstitch.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/44.jpeg

Scythian tattoos:
http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/tattooschreiber-dep34.jpg
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/arz-nn-012ge1.jpg
http://www.tattooheaven.com/ScythWAR.gif
http://www.tattooheaven.com/ScythTAT.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xHpxN6OSQPw/TNkybJnzS8I/AAAAAAAAANU/SoazB0rUXEA/s1600/scythian+Kai+2.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jzAha9EidsU/Tg5uAvSxP4I/AAAAAAAAF3w/RO50toYHljs/s1600/Scythian%2BRam%2BTattoo.jpg
http://media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media//75/58875-050-11D4A8D7.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/tattoo/1/0/y/q/1/image1370_scythiandragon_patfish.jpg

[Redar14]

Iranian faces.

ghQSgttbod4

[d3cimat3d]

You see, majority Kurds and Persians haven't iranian or even european origin and Ossetians are only iranic speakers.

No they are not only Iranic speaking. There's a huge Scythian influence in Ossetians, actually all north Caucasians have it. You can see they have somewhat of a pull towards Europe, Chechens especially:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5255/pcacaucasus.png

I was actually given the autosomal data file of a north Ossetian woman and she came out 20% north European, 7% east Asian, and the rest west-Asian (Near Eastern)..



By genes they are 99% Caucasian locals.

Simply not true. Your usual SSlavic anti-Caucasus ramblings.

[Johnston]

Scythia was a Roman province in the prefecture of Illyricum, which was based in the Balkans. It was more European than the Anatolian province of Oriens...therefore, the Scythians may be seen as European by all means. They are as European as every tribe that has moved into Asia, even if they have forgotten their roots, like most of the Islamic world having Persian ancestors, ancestors with ties to Europe via the Hittites, Trojans, Greeks, etc.

[Redar14]

No they are not only Iranic speaking. There's a huge Scythian influence in Ossetians, actually all north Caucasians have it. You can see they have somewhat of a pull towards Europe, Chechens especially:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5255/pcacaucasus.png



Yes, Ossetians have Iranian influence but generally they are iranized north caucasian Aborigines, they are very different from original Alans who lived in Pontic steppes. Check their haplogroups mtDNA and Y-DNA.



Scythia was a Roman province in the prefecture of Illyricum, which was based in the Balkans. It was more European than the Anatolian province of Oriens...

We talk about pure Iranians from pontic steppe and central Asia.

[Redar14]

Xianbei, ancient protoplast of Mongolian Nations:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkMFR0C2mJ21-crQAUvA2FyU5Pd5yhi_F8oqAfVYz4nNrapHUq8hMiwG8u

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQWKGUZN07FtsMV-wW6F66j_TFEDnXb6UAC0VsCvlFGq64UoDCHLaboaLQqg

[Johnston]

--------------------------------------------------------------------They are all the same people.:confused:

[d3cimat3d]

Yes, Ossetians have Iranian influence but generally they are iranized north caucasian Aborigines

True.



they are very different from original Alans who lived in Pontic steppes.


Alans were a mix of different people, mainly Caucasus folk. Alans lost their purity over time. They were not really the same people as their Scythian fore-bearers.



Check their haplogroups mtDNA and Y-DNA.

It would be kind of useless especially if one knows of all the population bottlenecks north Caucasians faced, dealing with Tamerlane and what not. Also y-dna is not always consistent with full autosomal DNA, otherwise Lithuanians with their 40% N1c1 should look 40% Mongoloid, but they don't.

[Redar14]

They are all the same people.:confused:

Please, don't insult me. :D Not all Poles in this forum are one and the same person. (Mordid)

[Redar14]

.

Alans were a mix of different people, mainly Caucasus folk. Alans lost their purity over time. They were not really the same people as their Scythian fore-bearers.



Hey...What do you think about conception of common descent Tocharians, Celts and Italic from Northern Caucasus? In my personal opinion it's very logical, one half pre-kentum europeans went to Europe, second half pre-kentum europeans went to Sinciang.

[Redar14]

My second question:

Kushans were Iranic or Tocharian (Yuezhi) tribes?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Kushanmap.jpg/466px-Kushanmap.jpg

Today's Hazāra-tribe from Afghanistan are iranized Yuezhi?
Most Hazāra have haplogroup R1b.

[The Journeyman]

Hey...What do you think about conception of common descent Tocharians, Celts and Italic from Northern Caucasus? In my personal opinion it's very logical, one half pre-kentum europeans went to Europe, second half pre-kentum europeans went to Sinciang.

Tocharian remains were found to have R1a1a paternal markers, so essentially they would be more related to modern Poles and western Russians than any other European group.

If they were equestrian cultures, they could have originated anywhere along the Stepp lands as well.

[Redar14]

Tocharian remains were found to have R1a1a paternal markers, so essentially they would be more related to modern Poles and western Russians than any other European group.

If they were equestrian cultures, they could have originated anywhere along the Stepp lands as well.

No! Tocharians were haplogroup R1b just like Kelts, their material culture was very similar to Keltic material culture, tocharian language is Kentum not satem.

[Redar14]

Hey...What do you think about conception of common descent Tocharians, Celts and Italic from Northern Caucasus? In my personal opinion it's very logical, one half pre-kentum europeans went to Europe, second half pre-kentum europeans went to Sinciang.

Look at this map:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jim.fleming/images/R1b_large_RG.jpg

This is frequency of haplogroup R1b in Europe. Do you see Caucasus?

[The Journeyman]

Look at this map:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jim.fleming/images/R1b_large_RG.jpg

This is frequency of haplogroup R1b in Europe. Do you see Caucasus?

I don't know where you're getting your info from, but from the several sources I've read, the Mummies from the Tarim Basin have been shown to have R1a1a lineage.

[Redar14]

I don't know where you're getting your info from, but from the several sources I've read, the Mummies from the Tarim Basin have been shown to have R1a1a lineage.


zy329hpwZEQ

Uighurs are turkized Tocharians.

[The Journeyman]

Cool video, bro.

:D

[Redar14]

Within the R1b haplogroup are modal haplotypes. One of the best-characterized of these haplotypes is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). This haplotype reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in the British Isles. In the Iberian Peninsula it reaches 33% in Portugal.

There also exists a haplotype of R1b with the DYS393=12 which is known in the literature as Haplotype 35, or ht35, as opposed to the AMH which is known as haplotype 15. They can be found in high numbers in Southeastern Europe and Western Asia. The members of this haplotype are thought to be descended from early R1b's who found shelter in Anatolia during the Last Glacial Maximum instead of in Iberia. They can be found in high numbers in the Armenian Highland and Armenia with smaller numbers throughout the Middle East, in Jewish populations, in Southeastern Europe, and in the Caucasus Mountains. There is also a sizable pocket of ht35 in Uyghur populations in western China, which is thought to be a remnant of the Tocharians, an Indo-European speaking people that inhabited the Tarim Basin in Central Asia until they were later absorbed by various Turkic peoples.

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

[The Journeyman]

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

All of the sources in that article are old.

Data from research done in 2009: "Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that the Xiaohe people carried both the East Eurasian haplogroup (C) and the West Eurasian haplogroups (H and K), whereas Y chromosomal DNA analysis revealed only the West Eurasian haplogroup R1a1a in the male individuals."

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15#IDAH0OBH

[Redar14]

All of the sources in that article are old.

Data from research done in 2009: "Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that the Xiaohe people carried both the East Eurasian haplogroup (C) and the West Eurasian haplogroups (H and K), whereas Y chromosomal DNA analysis revealed only the West Eurasian haplogroup R1a1a in the male individuals."

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15#IDAH0OBH

How do you know that this people were ethnic Tocharians? In Sinciang lived a lot of iranian Saka and iranian-altaic Wusun (烏孫)

[StonyArabia]

The descendants of the Alans and those who mixed with the Kipchaks and Circassians became the Karachay-Balkars, who often have surname to trace their lineage to those people. They lost their language due to extensive mixing with the Kipchaks and adopted a Turkic tongue and Tengrism, until they shifted to Islam for political alliance against Russia. Some Karachay-Balkar surnames indicate Alanic ancestry, but other than that, I don't believe the Scythians are the sole ancestors of the North Caucasian peoples, because many of them were just local Caucasians who also shifted their language and culture to that of the Scythians due to elite dominance but there is certainly a significant blood existing among those peoples. The Alans did not disappear but rather mixed extensively with the surrounding nations, as well the Kipchak influence can not be ignored as well, and many are also proud of the stamping it had on their blood.

[Redar14]

I don't believe the Scythians are the sole ancestors of the North Caucasian peoples, because many of them were just local Caucasians who also shifted their language and culture to that of the Scythians due to elite dominance but there is certainly a significant blood existing among those peoples. The Alans did not disappear but rather mixed extensively with the surrounding nations, as well the Kipchak influence can not be ignored as well, and many are also proud of the stamping it had on their blood.

Alans were not Scythians!

In my personal opinion a lot of Khazars and Pechenges had Alan ancestry.

[Johnston]

Alans were not Scythians!

In my personal opinion a lot of Khazars and Pechenges had Alan ancestry.Prove that the Alans were not Persian but were Turkic instead. That is your position, so defend it with facts. Academia is against you on this one.

[Redar14]

Prove that the Alans were not Persian but were Turkic instead.

Alans were not Persian or Turic but Iranian tribe. I meant that a lot of north-western turics tribes were mixed with iranian predecessors.

[Johnston]

Redar, you still do not make sense. Are you now advocating a hybrid existence for the Alans? Alans, Persians, Iranians, all the same damned thing...with varying stages of civilisation and affluence. Just because the Norwegians, for instance, were considered barbarians and the Franks were not, does not mean that they did not share the same Germanic heritage.:rolleyes:

[ariaka]

The hairstyle has been in existence in many parts of the world for millennia. For instance, the Clonycavan Man, a 2000-year-old male bog body discovered near Dublin in 2003, was found to be wearing a mohawk styled with plant oil and pine resin.[2] Artwork discovered at the Pazyryk burials dating back to 600 BCE depicts Scythian warriors sporting similar mohawks. The body of a warrior occupying one of the kurgans had been scalped earlier in life and wore a hair prosthesis in the form of a mohawk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_hairstyle

Headhunting is the practice of taking a person's head after killing them. Headhunting was practised in historic times ...... as well as among certain tribes of the Celts and Scythians of ancient Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headhunting

[Redar14]

Very interesting information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassic_people

[Nairi]

Has anyone mentioned Talysh people?

..........

Talysh (also Talishi, Taleshi or Talyshi) are an Iranian people[14][15][16][17][18][19] indigenous to a region shared between Azerbaijan and Iran which spans the South Caucasus and the southwestern shore of the Caspian Sea. They speak the Talysh language, one of the Northwestern Iranian languages. It is spoken in the northern regions of the Iranian provinces of Gilan and Ardabil and the southern parts of the Republic of Azerbaijan. Northern Talysh (the part in the Republic of Azerbaijan) was historically known as Talish-i Gushtasbi. In Iran there is a Talesh County in Gilan. Anthropologically they belong to the Caspian type of the European race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talysh_people

........

They are currently occupied by Turkic Azerbaijanis and are fighting for inependence,have their flag.
In DNA tests they are listed as "Azerbaijani"

iSfOtjoRU44

[Nairi]

Video description says:

The Pan-Turkist government of Azerbaijan has implemented a policy of forceful oppression and integration of minorities, including Talysh and Iranian-Azaris.

ZaG8wyoDWp4

[Padre Organtino]

Could you stop with propaganda, please? What do modern Talysh have to do with scytheans anyway except for belonging to the same branch of Indoeuropean languages? You want to weaken Azerbaidjan by promoting Talysh separatism? Fine, just push the agenda elsewhere, you're garbaging this thread.

On topic: scythians cetrainly were European in terms of genetics. Its just that they were quite distant culturally from the rest of Indoeuropeans. American WASPs spent just several centuries separated from the rest of Europe and their culture is already rather distinct compared to that of Europeans.

[Nairi]

I am not surprised to see how Georgian backs up Turkic invasion of Caucasian Albania and calls fair struggle for independence against brutal Turkic Azeri invaders a "separatism". Due to that "separatism" Balkan is free today.

The thread is called:

"Scythians and other Iranian Nomads - European" and Talysh are Iranian people, so my post is in its right place!

[Padre Organtino]

I am not surprised to see how Georgian backs up Turkic invasion of Caucasian Albania and calls fair struggle for independence against brutal Turkic Azeri invaders a "separatism". Due to that "separatism" Balkan is free today.

The thread is called:

"Scythians and other Iranian Nomads - European" and Talysh are Iranian people, so my post is in its right place!

A little surprising to see illiteracy rate among Armenians skyrocketing. The thread is called "Scythians and other Iranian Nomads - European". Did you mention anything about iranian nomads like saks, cymmerians or scytheans in your rant about talysh opression? There are plenty of iranian speaking people in the world. Talysh belong to the ones who fit perfectly among Middle Eatern people and have very little to do both with ancient iranian nomads and modern Europeans.
Georgians really see both Armenians and Azeri as Middle-Eastern neighbours with former being less retarded, that's all. Certainly weaker Azerbaidjan would be more welcome from Caucasus point of view but for Europeans (Russians in this case) crisis and conflicts in Azerbaidjan mean more immigration pressure which they'd very much like to avoid.

[Nairi]

Now I realise that you are most likely not Georgian but someone who is still so adamant to involve Armenians into fight. Spare your efforst, I am not going to take a bait.
Instead I will make sure Europeans know more about the hidden reality in our region.


Talysh Iranic people of so called Azerbaian
Btw, "Azerbaijan" in Farsi (Persian language) means "land of fire"

3XaIBEeqavo

[Padre Organtino]

Now I realise that you are most likely not Georgian but someone who is still so adamant to involve Armenians into fight. Spare your efforst, I am not going to take a bait.
Instead I will make sure Europeans know more about the hidden reality in our region.


Talysh Iranic people of so called Azerbaian
Btw, "Azerbaijan" in Farsi (Persian language) means "land of fire"

3XaIBEeqavo

Seriously, I'm trying not to be armenophobic after enormous amounts of shit you've told about my people but tolerating utter stupidity is above my limits.

What the fuck should Europeans know about former Antrapatena? That there are some iranic speaking dudes living there? Wow, what a discovery! That they are being oppressed for not belong to majority ethnic or religious group? Zomg, so totally not like modern Middle East!!11
Once again, you are not contributing with anything related to the topic.

[Nairi]

The quality of my contribution is none of your concern, we have Loki and Mods here for that. Stop trolling the thread.

[Padre Organtino]

So no arguments except for stupid personal insults? Rather predictable, I'd say.
Back on the topic: I think various Iranian nomads like cymmerians and alans are primarily responcible for Northern European admxiture encountered in North and Western Caucasus. As for the modern European populations - they have obviously made a great contribution to gene pool of Eastern Slavs and certain Ugoric people of Russia. It's also noteworthy that a lot of toponyms in Western Russia are now suggested to have Iranian origins.

[safrax]

I think various Iranian nomads like cymmerians and alans are primarily responcible for Northern European admxiture encountered in North and Western Caucasus.

it's well known, that Alans had a significiant asian admixture. :thumb001:

[Padre Organtino]

it's well known, that Alans had a significiant asian admixture. :thumb001:

So do North Caucasians. Well, they have varying degrees but its present in almost all groups. Ossetians are especially interesting case as they are assumed to have recieved linguistic and genetic contribution from Alans and indeed have elevated North-European and East-Asian components (thus said they still have less Asian than most of the turkic-speaking Caucasian locals).

[GeistFaust]

The Scythians and Iranic Nomads were largely Indo-European, until they started branching out and mixing with Turkic peoples in the Eurasian Steppes. The Scythians seem to have met the fate that a lot of other Central Asian races did, that is they become a hybrid race. This though does not seem to align itself with the context of the question nor does it answer it appropriately.


Basically the Scythians, Samartians, Alans, Massagatae, and numerous other Iranic tribes were Indo-Europeans. The subsequent mixing they had with Turkic tribes who were quite mixed would lead to the racial composition of many of the peoples in the Caucasus region. The Scythians(Saka) also settled in parts of the Indian continent where they took on Buddhism.


The Turkic peoples and later on Mongoloid peoples had a large impact over a relatively large area stretching from Central Asia all the to Eastern Europe. As they Scythians began to break up their bloodlines were dissolved into those peoples that assimilated with them.

This occured around the time when all the Turkic peoples started displacing people so that they moved further West. If there was any trace of a Scythian people it was wiped out by the Mongolian peoples for the most part in the 13th and 14th century.

[safrax]

The Scythians and Iranic Nomads were largely Indo-European, until they started branching out and mixing with Turkic peoples in the Eurasian Steppes.

there were no speakers of Turkish language in those days. The Scythians mixed primarily with peoples from the Volga region (Cimmerians), and Southerners from the middle East, and to an certain degree with Uralians and Yenniseic both of asian somatic type in the north-east, and only the most eastward migrating groups (Ordos, Pazyryk, Tagar, Tuva, Uvs Noor,...) became partly exterminated and partly assimilated by westward migrating pre-Turkic Altaics clearly of east-asian somatic type from the 400BC on.

[d3cimat3d]

Scythian phenotype:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dymytro+chygrynskiy&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2482l2650l2l2778l2l2l0l0l0l0l123l123l0.1l1l 0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=889&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_vLyTqm4NNKTtwf98vTPBg

[Rereg]

Scythian phenotype:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dymytro+chygrynskiy&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2482l2650l2l2778l2l2l0l0l0l0l123l123l0.1l1l 0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=889&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_vLyTqm4NNKTtwf98vTPBg

Kalash male:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/MY_SITE/kalash1a.jpg

Hunza Kids:
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/hunzakids.jpg

Humza Girl:
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/hunzavalleypakistan.jpg

I think they look like ancient Saka.

[Rereg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_Neapolis

[Artaxat]

Humza Girl:
http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/hunzavalleypakistan.jpg


:eek:
Pakistan??? I find it hard to believe

I read about the Hunza, it seems they are famous for longevity

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__ktiTyeZU_s/SlRmyr8_uOI/AAAAAAAAAE4/IcB_QphYzjM/s320/HunzaMen.jpg

[d3cimat3d]

Kalash male:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/MY_SITE/kalash1a.jpg



Actually recent genetic material suggests Kalash people are only 1.5% north European on average, so they can't be Scythian looking.


:eek:
Pakistan??? I find it hard to believe

I read about the Hunza, it seems they are famous for longevity

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__ktiTyeZU_s/SlRmyr8_uOI/AAAAAAAAAE4/IcB_QphYzjM/s320/HunzaMen.jpg

Yes I think that's a picture of a westerner who was doing missionary work in Pakistan. I remember reading about her somewhere.

[safrax]

Actually recent genetic material suggests Kalash people are only 1.5% north European on average, so they can't be Scythian looking.


Scythians were not a north european people

[Padre Organtino]

Scythians were not a north european people

They actually were.

[Albion]

They actually were.

How? Surely they'd have more in common with Eastern Euros and Slavs and largely be R1a as as opposed to I1 or R1b?

[Redar14]

How? Surely they'd have more in common with Eastern Euros and Slavs and largely be R1a as as opposed to I1 or R1b?

30% of Norwegians has haplogoup R1a :p ...but I agree with you Scythians/Sarmatians were more similar to Poles or Eastern Slavs than Western/Southern Europeans (their haplogroup is R1b).



Actually recent genetic material suggests Kalash people are only 1.5% north European on average, so they can't be Scythian looking.

Scythians were NEVER north-europeans:
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/scythia_map.jpg

[Albion]

30% of Norwegians has haplogoup R1a :p ...but I agree with you Scythians/Sarmatians were more similar to Poles or Eastern Slavs than Western/Southern Europeans (their haplogroup is R1b).

I know, but it generally falls away as you get further west.

[Padre Organtino]

How? Surely they'd have more in common with Eastern Euros and Slavs and largely be R1a as as opposed to I1 or R1b?

They were similar to ancient proto Balto-Slavs who were closer to North Europeans than to East Europeans.

[Redar14]

:eek:
Pakistan??? I find it hard to believe

We talk about isolated Hunza people from far-north Pakistan. A lot of them have europid, light faces, they should be similar to ancient Saka-tribes.
You should know that 70% of Hunza people have haplogroup R1a.

[safrax]

We talk about isolated Hunza people from far-north Pakistan. A lot of them have europid, light faces, they should be similar to ancient Saka-tribes.
You should know that 70% of Hunza people have haplogroup R1a.

what makes you sure that ancient Saka-tribes had europid, light faces?

[Redar14]

what makes you sure that ancient Saka-tribes had europid, light faces?

A lot of ancient iranian mummies from Central Asia have light hair/skin, saka skeletons have caucasoid construction. Descriptions of ancient writers confirm our supposition.

[AlanAstarDersimi]

the "zaza" (kurdish) people have the most old iranian shares in their language...
they live in the northwest of the kurdish areas of settlement...
they have the highest rates of r1a1a m17 (25,9%) and i2a2 (33%) in the middle east...
in the "dersim" region their religion is a mix between old iranian religions, christianity and islam...