Jews can pray in a Mosque but not in a Church

[Mortimer]

That is interesting, because Americans usually group Christians and Jews as one thing they call them Judeo_Christians and Judeo_Christian values as oppossed to Islamic values or Islam.


https://www.tiktok.com/@thatjinjyjew/video/7194924145757539630?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=6940901126733481477

[Mortimer]

https://www.tiktok.com/@themortimer83/video/7199928901043309830?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=6940901126733481477

[Serif]

.......

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The way you put it almost implies that it is Christians who forbid Jews to pray on a Church, when in reality it Jewish principles that forbid Jews to do so. I can't speak for all Christian denominations but regarding the one I am mostly familiar with, Catholicism, people of all faiths and backgrounds are more than welcome to attend the liturgy, no questions asked. Step into a Mosque while wearing a Kippah or a Synagogue with an Hijab and find out how welcoming and brotherly they are. Our cultural matrix is Judeo-Christian because Christians do not dismiss the scriptures in the Old Testament but it is not the same as lumping Jews and Christians together, since either have different interpretations of the scriptures.

[Mortimer]

The way you put it almost implies that it is Christians who forbid Jews to pray on a Church, when in reality it Jewish principles that forbid Jews to do so. I can't speak for all Christian denominations but regarding the one I am mostly familiar with, Catholicism, people of all faiths and backgrounds are more than welcome to attend the liturgy, no questions asked. Step into a Mosque while wearing a Kippah or a Synagogue with an Hijab and find out how welcoming and brotherly they are. Our cultural matrix is Judeo-Christian because Christians do not dismiss the scriptures in the Old Testament but it is not the same as lumping Jews and Christians together, since either have different interpretations of the scriptures.

Listen man you misunderstand completely. Im not saying Christians forbid jews, im saying jews hate christians, or consider them idolators. It is actually something which i see as negative about jews, or at least neutral, and i wonder why people think that jews are allies of christians?

[Mortimer]

Our cultural matrix is Judeo-Christian because Christians do not dismiss the scriptures in the Old Testament but it is not the same as lumping Jews and Christians together, since either have different interpretations of the scriptures.

It is the practically the same, because it implies that christians have to fight for israel and that israel fights for the western civilisation as oppossed to a islamic civilisation. it is in the war of cultures for example.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Listen man you misunderstand completely. Im not saying Christians forbid jews, im saying jews hate christians, or consider them idolators. It is actually something which i see as negative about jews, or at least neutral, and i wonder why people think that jews are allies of christians?

All Abrahamic denominations think theirs is the true one, so I don't understand what the amazement is. What you find negative in their religion, they also find in yours. I don't think that Christians see Jews as allies of Christianity. I think you are mixing geopolitics with religion because of the American and Israeli partnership. Israel follows a Western-inspired model but so does Japan. They are aligned with the West but it does not mean that Christianity and Judaism are converging.

[Dušan]

It is the practically the same, because it implies that christians have to fight for israel and that israel fights for the western civilisation as oppossed to a islamic civilisation. it is in the war of cultures for example.

It is nonsense.
No sane Orthodox Christian would fight for Israel.

It is American Protestant fallacy.

[Mortimer]

It is nonsense.
No sane Orthodox Christian would fight for Israel.

It is American Protestant fallacy.

True, but also common in the west in general not in Serbia though.

[Mortimer]

All Abrahamic denominations think theirs is the true one, so I don't understand what the amazement is. What you find negative in their religion, they also find in yours. .

We could ask further if SOME jews organise in institutions or ngos or usurp insisting institutions to take down the vatican, or christianity in general but would that be anti-semitic, while majority of christians in the west do believe jews to be their allies. especially americans.

[Dušan]

True, but also common in the west in general not in Serbia though.

Yeah, they are all crazy with all that "Judeo"-Christian civilization.

It means nothing to us.

[Victor]

Talmudic Jews worship false "God" since they don't accept Holy Trinity and didn't accept and crucified Jesus Christ. The "Messiah" they're still waiting for is gonna be antichrist. The Judeo-Christian civilisation is nonsense.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Talmudic Jews worship false God since they don't accept Holy Trinity and didn't accept and crucified Jesus Christ. The Judeo-Christian civilisation is nonsense.

Not that I really have an opinion on the issue, but I cannot remember, historically, when Christians (of Europe) and Jews were allies until the US started developing this relationship (perhaps because of WW2)?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

We could ask further if SOME jews organise in institutions or ngos or usurp insisting institutions to take down the vatican, or christianity in general but would that be anti-semitic, while majority of christians in the west do believe jews to be their allies. especially americans.

Which Jewish organization is trying to take down the Vatican? Enough Tik-Toks for today. Most Jews view the U.S. and Europe either neutrally or positively, not negatively. I'm not understanding your analogy.

[Dušan]

Here Israeli Jews say they would enter the mosque than in church.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk-oyGvkJqQ


"Judeo-Christian civilisation" :rotfl

[Victor]

Here Israeli Jews say they would enter the mosque than in church.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk-oyGvkJqQ


"Judeo-Christian civilisation" :rotfl

Yea, unlike church, nothing happens in mosque except prayers, it's just a building where God is absent, that's why Muslims may normally exist even without mosques, but gathering at homes without any kind of clergy. Mosque is more a place of gathering for them. There's nothing like Christian sacraments in Islam which can be provided only by valid priests.

Mosque is probably considered to be a safe place in spiritual meaning for Talmudic Jews xD

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Mosque is probably considered to be a safe place in spiritual meaning for Talmudic Jews xD

Where is it claimed that these Jews are Talmudic? Are you thinking generally?

[Victor]

Where is it claimed that these Jews are Talmudic? Are you thinking generally?

All post Christ and post Old Testament Judaists are Talmudic ones, maybe except some sects, but it doesn't matter.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In Abrahamic religions (regardless if they are Jewish, Christian or Muslim), God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, therefore saying that he can be absent from a building is odd. Just as it is odd to dismiss the idea of Judeo-Christian traditions influencing Europe for the last two millennia, when half of the Christian Bible is actually the Jewish Tanakh (albeit in a different order).

[Victor]

In Abrahamic religions (regardless if they are Jewish, Christian or Muslim), God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, therefore saying that he can be absent from a building is odd. Just as it is odd to dismiss the idea of Judeo-Christian traditions influencing Europe for the last two millennia, when half of the Christian Bible is actually the Jewish Tanakh (albeit in a different order).

First of all, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion as Muslims do not accept any kind of agreement between God and people. Allah is not omnipresent, it's described as distanced being, it's limited in space. That's another reason to say he has traits of creature, not a Creator.

During the sacrament of Communion Holy Body and Blood of Christ are really present, that's it.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

First of all, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion as Muslims do not accept any kind of agreement between God and people.
Can you elaborate on this?

Allah is not omnipresent, it's described as distanced being, it's limited in space. That's another reason to say he has traits of creature, not a Creator.
Where is this claimed?

[Victor]

Can you elaborate on this?

Where is this claimed?

Different Islamic sects have different statements, which differ only by "extremity". For example, wahabis claim that Allah is sitting on his trone.

[Dušan]

In Abrahamic religions (regardless if they are Jewish, Christian or Muslim), God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, therefore saying that he can be absent from a building is odd. Just as it is odd to dismiss the idea of Judeo-Christian traditions influencing Europe for the last two millennia, when half of the Christian Bible is actually the Jewish Tanakh (albeit in a different order).

You Westerners can call yourself Judeo-Christians if you want, we dont care.

That term is not acceptable for Orthodox Christians.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Different Islamic sects have different statements, which differ only by "extremity". For example, wahabis claim that Allah is sitting on his trone.

Ok.
But the Qur'an doesn't say this? Then it's more according to the believers to interpret?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

First of all, Islam is not an Abrahamic religion as Muslims do not accept any kind of agreement between God and people. Allah is not omnipresent, it's described as distanced being, it's limited in space. That's another reason to say he has traits of creature, not a Creator.

During the sacrament of Communion Holy Body and Blood of Christ are really present, that's it.

Islam is not an Abrahamic religion only according to you apparently. All of them have the same roots. Islam recognizes the prophet Abraham (and Moses and Jesus for the matter). Saying that God is not omnipresent is an oxymoron. How can God be omnipotent but not omnipresent, that would mean its power is limited and therefore not God.

[Victor]

Ok.
But the Qur'an doesn't say this? Then it's more according to the believers to interpret?

That's not a problem of Christians that Muslims don't have some universal teaching and every verse may be interpreted freely totally opposite.

[Victor]

Islam is not an Abrahamic religion only according to you apparently. All of them have the same roots. Islam recognizes the prophet Abraham (and Moses and Jesus for the matter). Saying that God is not omnipresent is an oxymoron. How can God be omnipotent but not omnipresent, that would mean its power is limited and therefore not God.

Sure, that is why islamic Allah is not God and Islam is a false religion. Why do you tell me it's oxymoron, tell it to the salafites, for example. But even majority of Muslim scholars will say that being "presented everywhere" is not literal, but with his mind, like it cannot be so that Allah is presented in some dirty place or under my hat.

Islamic Jesus is a mockery of Jesus Christ and Holy Trinity, when a God, Saviour is relegated to a human prophet.

We can also say that mormones have same roots with Christianity with such logics, while it's half-pagan sect.

[Loki]

That is interesting, because Americans usually group Christians and Jews as one thing they call them Judeo_Christians and Judeo_Christian values as oppossed to Islamic values or Islam.


https://www.tiktok.com/@thatjinjyjew/video/7194924145757539630?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=6940901126733481477

There's no such thing as "Judeo-Christian". That's an American concept that compromises the Christian faith.

[Loki]

Jews wouldn't pray in a church, because it would convict them of their fatal sin of rejecting Jesus Christ.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Islam is not an Abrahamic religion only according to you apparently. All of them have the same roots. Islam recognizes the prophet Abraham (and Moses and Jesus for the matter). Saying that God is not omnipresent is an oxymoron. How can God be omnipotent but not omnipresent, that would mean its power is limited and therefore not God.
When reading the Qur'an, in majority of verses I have read, at the end there is always something about how Allah is aware of everything that you do, i.e. if you think bad thoughts Allah will know and so on.


That's not a problem of Christians that Muslims don't have some universal teaching and every verse may be interpreted freely totally opposite.
That's is not what I'm claiming. I'm trying to understand how you reached your conclusion.

Sure, that is why islamic Allah is not God and Islam is a false religion. Why do you tell me it's oxymoron, tell it to the salafites, for example. But even majority of Muslim scholars will say that being "presented everywhere" is not literal, but with his mind, like it cannot be so that Allah is presented in some dirty place or under my hat.

Islamic Jesus is a mockery of Jesus Christ and Holy Trinity, when a God, Saviour is relegated to a human prophet.
I suppose there is not much bad to say about Jesus as a person, the only thing I am skeptical of (and would be whether we were talking about Jesus or the USSR) is the way he is idolized, since he came in a human shape, which cannot be perfect. As for the soul of Jesus, it can indeed be more "perfect" but not in a human form, only in the heavens. The human conditions sort of make everyone susceptible to corruption, whether it is the person itself (not in Jesus case) or the way a person is worshiped/idolized etc.

[Kriptc06]

"Judeo Christian" term is a fallacy, made up term by protestants and their 9000 different branches trying to and i quote, "practice the pure, original Christianity", which in their view would be closer to judaism, even stealing stuff outright from them. I really dislike it, having close contact to many of them and their 9k branches, which say they are the right one.

[Victor]

I suppose there is not much bad to say about Jesus as a person, the only thing I am skeptical of (and would be whether we were talking about Jesus or the USSR) is the way he is idolized, since he came in a human shape, which cannot be perfect. As for the soul of Jesus, it can indeed be more "perfect" but not in a human form, only in the heavens. The human conditions sort of make everyone susceptible to corruption, whether it is the person itself (not in Jesus case) or the way a person is worshiped/idolized etc.

Jesus Christ cannot be idolized as he's God, fully equal in Holy Trinity to Father and Holy Spirit. Only idols, something not divine can be idolized.

What is "Jesus of the USSR"?

[Incal]

Listen man you misunderstand completely. Im not saying Christians forbid jews, im saying jews hate christians, or consider them idolators. It is actually something which i see as negative about jews, or at least neutral, and i wonder why people think that jews are allies of christians?

Not sure about that since jews parasite on christians the most. Look at this graphic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Map_of_the_Jewish_Diaspora_in_the_World.svg/1280px-Map_of_the_Jewish_Diaspora_in_the_World.svg.png

The US: Christian (sorta)
Canada: Christian (sorta)
Brazil: Christian
Argentina: Christian
The UK: Christian (yet)
Germany: Christian (yet)
France: Christian (barely)
Russia: Christian
Australia: Christian (sorta)

[Atlantic Reptilian]

Jesus Christ cannot be idolized as he's God, fully equal in Holy Trinity to Father and Holy Spirit. Only idols, something not divine can be idolized.

What is "Jesus of the USSR"?
I just have a hard time believing it can be in human form.

I'm speaking of the ideal that some people of the USSR believed in, and I mean that it can become a delusion to idealize

[Sacrificed Ram]

Here Israeli Jews say they would enter the mosque than in church.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk-oyGvkJqQ


"Judeo-Christian civilisation" :rotfl

Churches aren't places of idolatry, to have figures of saints is like to have figures of angels on ark, they aren't idols, they are icons.

https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/lion-statue-heavenly-cathedral-coptic-orthodox-church-sharm-el-sheikh-egypt-close-up_185094-2300.jpg?w=826

https://www.thetrumpet.com/files/W1siZiIsIjIwMTcvMDMvMDcvNWxsOThhaXN5bF9maWxlIl0sWy JwIiwidGh1bWIiLCIyMDQ4eDIwNDg-Il0sWyJwIiwiZW5jb2RlIiwianBnIiwiLXF1YWxpdHkgODAiXV 0/526a54065a3102a8/locus_9630.jpg.jpg

[Dušan]

Churches aren't places of idolatry, to have figures of saints is like to have figures of angels on ark, they aren't idols, they are icons.



Of course, I know.

The point of post is to all those who advocate of existance of "Judeo-Christian civilisation" see that video.

[Loki]

I just have a hard time believing it can be in human form.

I'm speaking of the ideal that some people of the USSR believed in, and I mean that it can become a delusion to idealize

Jesus was not just a man. He was God revealed in human form, so that we could interact with him on earth in a human way (and many other reasons).

One cannot be a follower of Jesus, or a Christian, and deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself claimed to be God, that is why the Jews accused him of blasphemy and crucified him.

It is blasphemy to reject the Divinity of Jesus Christ. If you consider Jesus just a normal man, then you might as well not believe in him at all. There is no middle ground. This thing that Jesus was "a great prophet" or "a very good man" is just Satanic nonsense that should be rejected in the strongest terms.

[Loki]

Not sure about that since jews parasite on christians the most. Look at this graphic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Map_of_the_Jewish_Diaspora_in_the_World.svg/1280px-Map_of_the_Jewish_Diaspora_in_the_World.svg.png

The US: Christian (sorta)
Canada: Christian (sorta)
Brazil: Christian
Argentina: Christian
The UK: Christian (yet)
Germany: Christian (yet)
France: Christian (barely)
Russia: Christian
Australia: Christian (sorta)

What about Sub Saharan Africa? Jews go where the money is (as do most other people who have a choice).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

You Westerners can call yourself Judeo-Christians if you want, we dont care.

That term is not acceptable for Orthodox Christians.

The premise is not what we call or designate ourselves. To me it is obvious that for you and everybody else the problem is with the word "Judeo". When it is said that we have a Judeo-Christian cultural matrix, it is not implied that we are Jewish, the same way that you as a Serbian are not Roman\Hellenic only because we acknowledge the Greco-Roman cultural matrix in Europe (albeit I assume that you would have no problem with that label). So basically, does Europe have Jewish influences? Yes, through Christianity.

The Old Testament is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew writings by the Israelites.

[Loki]

The premise is not what we call or designate ourselves. To me it is obvious that for you and everybody else the problem is with the word "Judeo". When it is said that we have a Judeo-Christian cultural matrix, it is not implied that we are Jewish, the same way that you as a Serbian are not Roman\Hellenic only because we acknowledge the Greco-Roman cultural matrix in Europe (albeit I assume that you would have no problem with that label). So basically, does Europe have Jewish influences? Yes, through Christianity.

The Old Testament is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew writings by the Israelites.

The problem is that the pre-Christian Israelite people were not Jews. Judaism, as we know it today, actually arose after Christianity. The Talmud, for example, is not older than the New Testament. That's why "Judeo-Christian" is problematic. Post-Christian Judaism was by definition anti-Christian.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The problem is that the pre-Christian Israelite people were not Jews. Judaism, as we know it today, actually arose after Christianity. The Talmud, for example, is not older than the New Testament. That's why "Judeo-Christian" is problematic. Post-Christian Judaism was by definition anti-Christian.

Yes, they were Jewish. Jesus is referred to as the King of the Jews, both at the beginning of his life and at the end in the Bible. His disciples were Jews who were the first to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus (in theory the first converts to Christianity). Joseph and Mary were a Jewish couple from Nazareth. The Jewish religion may have been reformulated or revised in subsequent centuries (I'm not super familiar with that) but that doesn't mean that people from the old scriptures are not or were not Jewish. They would have to be Jews not least because Jewish identity is based on concept of being the chosen people and the messiah would have to appear among the chosen ones. They also believe in the coming of the Messiah, who for Jews who converted in that era to Christianity, was Jesus Christ. That's one of the reasons why the Old Testament is important to Christians because it tells of the coming of the Messiah, which corroborates with the events in the New Testament.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

"Judeo Christian" term is a fallacy, made up term by protestants and their 9000 different branches trying to and i quote, "practice the pure, original Christianity", which in their view would be closer to judaism, even stealing stuff outright from them. I really dislike it, having close contact to many of them and their 9k branches, which say they are the right one.

Doubtful, not in the least because Protestants removed the most books from the Old Testament. Interestingly, the Orthodox Church has the most extensive Old Testament, comprised of 49 books, but they are the least influenced by any Judeo-Christian matrix, to which we "Westerners" are susceptible.

[Kriptc06]

Doubtful, not in the least because Protestants removed the most books from the Old Testament. Interestingly, the Orthodox Church has the most extensive Old Testament, comprised of 49 books, but they are the least influenced by any Judeo-Christian matrix, to which we "Westerners" are susceptible.

Most protestant denominations removed few chapters of the bible, and only accept as cannon books that are "inspired", meaning that these books Catholics and Orthodox have are "not inspired" in their view, because and I quote "diverges from the source", the original ancient chrisitianity, or so they falsely claim

Um exemplo são os livros deuterocanonicos, não aceitos pela maioria desta ditas denominações.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Most protestant denominations removed few chapters of the bible, and only accept as cannon books that are "inspired", meaning that these books Catholics and Orthodox have are "not inspired" in their view, because and I quote "diverges from the source", the original ancient chrisitianity, or so they falsely claim

Um exemplo são os livros deuterocanonicos, não aceitos pela maioria desta ditas denominações.

Protestants didn't remove books from Bible, they just retained the books that were in Bible, Pre-Reform. This Deutorocanonical books are also absent in modern jewish canon, despite acepted by some ancient branches of judaism now extincted.

Deutorocanonical are not accepted as religious text among jews because their canonical rule of don't use book written in non hebrew language (they were written originally in greek) and they have religious content foreign for religious practice of jews, like pray for dead people and use fictitious characters for religious purpose (Parabolas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable)).

But the most important point about this discussion is how protestants and catholichs use the Bible. Protestants see the Bible as source and basis of their faith, while catholics have the Bible as (very venerable) tool of their faith, but they have more complex and intricate structure of religious practice. Just remember most catholics were illiterate till recently, then Bible was more a tool used by clerics then average followers. The question is as said, the protestant anglo-saxon cultural hegemony in the world is imposing even catholics to use the Bible in protestant manners, but it can frustrate catholics in the practice of their faith.

It is like to obligate a soccer player to play the game with rules of rugby.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Most protestant denominations removed few chapters of the bible, and only accept as cannon books that are "inspired", meaning that these books Catholics and Orthodox have are "not inspired" in their view, because and I quote "diverges from the source", the original ancient chrisitianity, or so they falsely claim

Um exemplo são os livros deuterocanonicos, não aceitos pela maioria desta ditas denominações.

Ok but where did you get the idea that the Protestants want to get closer to Jews or mimic them though? In Weimar Germany, Catholics were far less likely to vote for the Nazi Party than their Protestant counterparts. Martin Luther, virtually the father of Protestantism, was also extremely anti-semitic (not in a racial\biological sense as in Nazi Germany but in a theological sense) and never advocated any approach to the Jews other than for the mere purpose of converting them. All streams of Christianity have been anti-Semitic for most of history. Luther's recommendations to the German Lords regarding the Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe-conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the lewd practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-39/was-luther-anti-semitic.html

[Kriptc06]

Ok but where did you get the idea that the Protestants want to get closer to Jews or mimic them though? In Weimar Germany, Catholics were far less likely to vote for the Nazi Party than their Protestant counterparts. Martin Luther, virtually the father of Protestantism, was also extremely anti-semitic (not in a racial\biological sense as in Nazi Germany but in a theological sense) and never advocated any approach to the Jews other than for the mere purpose of converting them. All streams of Christianity have been anti-Semitic for most of history. Luther's recommendations to the German Lords regarding the Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe-conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the lewd practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-39/was-luther-anti-semitic.html

From evangelical christians, first hand

[Victor]

Yes, they were Jewish. Jesus is referred to as the King of the Jews, both at the beginning of his life and at the end in the Bible. His disciples were Jews who were the first to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus (in theory the first converts to Christianity). Joseph and Mary were a Jewish couple from Nazareth. The Jewish religion may have been reformulated or revised in subsequent centuries (I'm not super familiar with that) but that doesn't mean that people from the old scriptures are not or were not Jewish. They would have to be Jews not least because Jewish identity is based on concept of being the chosen people and the messiah would have to appear among the chosen ones. They also believe in the coming of the Messiah, who for Jews who converted in that era to Christianity, was Jesus Christ. That's one of the reasons why the Old Testament is important to Christians because it tells of the coming of the Messiah, which corroborates with the events in the New Testament.

They were Israelites, the chosen people of God, people of the Old Testament, not vulgar tribe. They lost their blessing through rejecting Christ. Now they're just a tribe, while New Israel are the Christians no matter the tribe.

Before the Judgement Day lots of Jews will repent and become Christian during the days when Elijah the prophet will come for the sermon between them.

[Kriptc06]

Protestants didn't remove books from Bible, they just retained the books that were in Bible, Pre-Reform. This Deutorocanonical books are also absent in modern jewish canon, despite acepted by some ancient branches of judaism now extincted.

Deutorocanonical are not accepted as religious text among jews because their canonical rule of don't use book written in non hebrew language (they were written originally in greek) and they have religious content foreign for religious practice of jews, like pray for dead people and use fictitious characters for religious purpose (Parabolas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable)).

But the most important point about this discussion is how protestants and catholichs use the Bible. Protestants see the Bible as source and basis of their faith, while catholics have the Bible as (very venerable) tool of their faith, but they have more complex and intricate structure of religious practice. Just remember most catholics were illiterate till recently, then Bible was more a tool used by clerics then average followers. The question is as said, the protestant anglo-saxon cultural hegemony in the world is imposing even catholics to use the Bible in protestant manners, but it can frustrate catholics in the practice of their faith.

It is like to obligate a soccer player to play the game with rules of rugby.

The problem with the so many protestant denominations is that they can have different and divergent interpretations of the same text, even completely changing the meaning of what it is supposed to be. Ok Catholics were illiterate, but the clergy was not. It's hard to play a game when the rules are always different every match, it creates several different games.

About the books, yes that is what I was trying to say, they don't use those books and several others and only accept those that like you said were once accepted by jews themselves, aka, inspired, even because of the language written or the year it was written.

[Jana]

Ok but where did you get the idea that the Protestants want to get closer to Jews or mimic them though?

He's not wrong, at least in the new world. I attended Protestant school in US (Pentecostal, that's also popular in Brazil for eg.) and they were obsessed with Jews and Israel, in positive sense. Also they put huge emphasis on old Testament. On the other hand they were quite anti-Catholic.

It was all quite strange to me as such affinities don't exist in Roman Catholicism.

These Protestants liked Jews more than Catholics, that was my impression and I think it was correct one.

[Sacrificed Ram]

The problem with the so many protestant denominations is that they can have different and divergent interpretations of the same text, even completely changing the meaning of what it is supposed to be. Ok Catholics were illiterate, but the clergy was not. It's hard to play a game when the rules are always different every match, it creates several different games.

About the books, yes that is what I was trying to say, they don't use those books and several others and only accept those that like you said were once accepted by jews themselves, aka, inspired, even because of the language written or the year it was written.

Yes, Catholics are like USSR with standardized equipment and Protestant are like the capitalist with a crazy multitude of divergent equipment. Now Ukraine is winning the war with soviet equipment...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

They were Israelites, the chosen people of God, people of the Old Testament, not vulgar tribe. They lost their blessing through rejecting Christ. Now they're just a tribe, while New Israel are the Christians no matter the tribe.

Before the Judgement Day lots of Jews will repent and become Christian during the days when Elijah the prophet will come for the sermon between them.

More mental gymnastics to fit your narrative. If you are so averse to anything Jewish, then why be a Christian in the first place? You are basically denying what is written in the Bible. Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish, this is not even debated between Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants. Even historians agree on that. The term Jew is used in two senses in scriptures, to refer to those who are ethnically Jews and to those who are religiously Jews. Jesus was a Jew in both senses. According to Christian faith, he "completed" the Jewish religion by serving as the Messiah whom the Jewish prophets had long foretold. That is why there is no contradiction in being a Christian and having as Messiah someone who was a Jew because for Christians with the arrival of the Messiah the old covenant was replaced. You can't disassociate the Jews of the scriptures from Christianity, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense in the first place.

[Atlantic Reptilian]

They were Israelites, the chosen people of God, people of the Old Testament, not vulgar tribe. They lost their blessing through rejecting Christ. Now they're just a tribe, while New Israel are the Christians no matter the tribe.

Before the Judgement Day lots of Jews will repent and become Christian during the days when Elijah the prophet will come for the sermon between them.
I think if God was to pick a people of all humans, it certainly wouldn't any large group. Look around and consider if Jesus is practically used as an example of what a real woman/man should be like. Even though many Christians talk about him, do they really exhibit his way of approaching life? Are all the wars and such in the way of Jesus? I don't think so. The people that I see that remind me of Jesus are people who go their own way, the right way, regardless of what the consensus says. They are original. They go by heart. Does the world as it is go by heart? It doesn't. I think one should be reluctant to consider say people "the chosen people".

[Victor]

More mental gymnastics to fit your narrative. If you are so averse to anything Jewish, then why be a Christian in the first place? You are basically denying what is written in the Bible. Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish, this is not even debated between Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants. Even historians agree on that. The term Jew is used in two senses in scriptures, to refer to those who are ethnically Jews and to those who are religiously Jews. Jesus was a Jew in both senses. According to Christian faith, he "completed" the Jewish religion by serving as the Messiah whom the Jewish prophets had long foretold. That is why there is no contradiction in being a Christian and having as Messiah someone who was a Jew because for Christians with the arrival of the Messiah the old covenant was replaced. You can't disassociate the Jews of the scriptures from Christianity, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense in the first place.

I've stated everything I wanted to, I'm not going to play in endless opinions, check my signature.

[Incal]

What about Sub Saharan Africa? Jews go where the money is (as do most other people who have a choice).

Jews tend to be meek, Africa is too dangerous for them (as to most people), that's why the only ones who took advantage of that zone have been the chinese (and a handful of lebanese).

[Loki]

Yes, they were Jewish. Jesus is referred to as the King of the Jews, both at the beginning of his life and at the end in the Bible. His disciples were Jews who were the first to believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus (in theory the first converts to Christianity). Joseph and Mary were a Jewish couple from Nazareth. The Jewish religion may have been reformulated or revised in subsequent centuries (I'm not super familiar with that) but that doesn't mean that people from the old scriptures are not or were not Jewish. They would have to be Jews not least because Jewish identity is based on concept of being the chosen people and the messiah would have to appear among the chosen ones. They also believe in the coming of the Messiah, who for Jews who converted in that era to Christianity, was Jesus Christ. That's one of the reasons why the Old Testament is important to Christians because it tells of the coming of the Messiah, which corroborates with the events in the New Testament.

The "Jews" from the New Testament time were not the same as the "Jews" of today, and their religion was not Judaism. They still worshipped in the Temple, which was destroyed in 70AD, along with their religion. The Judaism that developed after that only came into being a few centuries after Christ, when they composed the Talmud. One can even read about Jesus in the Talmud, for example. (It's not very flattering though). By definition this Judaism is anti-Christian. It is ideologically descended from one sect that was in existence during the time of Jesus, namely the Pharisees. But it's quite different also.

[Sacrificed Ram]

The "Jews" from the New Testament time were not the same as the "Jews" of today, and their religion was not Judaism. They still worshipped in the Temple, which was destroyed in 70AD, along with their religion. The Judaism that developed after that only came into being a few centuries after Christ, when they composed the Talmud. One can even read about Jesus in the Talmud, for example. (It's not very flattering though). By definition this Judaism is anti-Christian. It is ideologically descended from one sect that was in existence during the time of Jesus, namely the Pharisees. But it's quite different also.

Loki, were your french hugenot anncestry those expeled from Brazil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_Antarctique

Do you score some amerind ancestry? Are you our brother? We are longing you! Come back! We even have a church awaiting for you here in my town!
https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/600x600/15371168_A_mcsX8q7mFHe_ERDJmjJNkhxQfiS1UEVLu4ha6I1 dk.jpg

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

The "Jews" from the New Testament time were not the same as the "Jews" of today, and their religion was not Judaism. They still worshipped in the Temple, which was destroyed in 70AD, along with their religion. The Judaism that developed after that only came into being a few centuries after Christ, when they composed the Talmud. One can even read about Jesus in the Talmud, for example. (It's not very flattering though). By definition this Judaism is anti-Christian. It is ideologically descended from one sect that was in existence during the time of Jesus, namely the Pharisees. But it's quite different also.

But how does that contradict what I am saying, that the scriptural figures were Jewish? Nor are today's Europeans the same as those of the Pagan era, nor do they have the same beliefs, but they are descended from the same people.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I've stated everything I wanted to, I'm not going to play in endless opinions, check my signature.

Yes, I am aware that religious people get uncomfortable when their beliefs are challenged, so obviously opinions do not matter when you already possess "the absolute truth".

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

He's not wrong, at least in the new world. I attended Protestant school in US (Pentecostal, that's also popular in Brazil for eg.) and they were obsessed with Jews and Israel, in positive sense. Also they put huge emphasis on old Testament. On the other hand they were quite anti-Catholic.

It was all quite strange to me as such affinities don't exist in Roman Catholicism.

These Protestants liked Jews more than Catholics, that was my impression and I think it was correct one.

You can look through the scope of Richmond\Meade, he is pro-Israel but lives in perpetual fear of having any Jewish ancestry any time he disclosures his ancestry.

[Sacrificed Ram]

But how does that contradict what I am saying, that the scriptural figures were Jewish? Nor are today's Europeans the same as those of the Pagan era, nor do they have the same beliefs, but they are descended from the same people.

He is right, modern forms of judaism are derivative of pharisee judaism, the judaism as practiced in Temple was extict. Also modern judaism has a lot of content and texts not adopted by christians.

He is talking about the religious practice, not the people.

We are being so fast in our discussion that we aren't defining the terms, also our different cultural manners to express ideas.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

He is right, modern forms of judaism are derivative of pharisee judaism, the judaism as practiced in Temple was extict. Also modern judaism has a lot of content and texts not adopted by christians.

He is talking about the religious practice, not the people.

We are being so fast in our discussion that we aren't defining the terms, also our different cultural manners to express ideas.

Loki can be right regarding their faith but does it change anything regarding Jesus and his disciples being Jewish, which is what I've been saying? My premise was never centered around whether or not the biblical figures practiced the same form of Judaism that is practiced today but rather the simple fact that they were Jewish, as stated in the scriptures.

[Jacques de Imbelloni]

For muslims jews are considered impure, they cannot be present during praying.

[Annihilus]

Technically Christianity is a Jewish sect.

[Loki]

Loki, were your french hugenot anncestry those expeled from Brazil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_Antarctique

Do you score some amerind ancestry? Are you our brother? We are longing you! Come back! We even have a church awaiting for you here in my town!
https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/600x600/15371168_A_mcsX8q7mFHe_ERDJmjJNkhxQfiS1UEVLu4ha6I1 dk.jpg

Yes, I have French Huguenot ancestry :) I don't think they came from Brazil, though. And no, I don't show Amerind genes.

[Loki]

Technically Christianity is a Jewish sect.

Christianity is older than Judaism.

[Loki]

Loki can be right regarding their faith but does it change anything regarding Jesus and his disciples being Jewish, which is what I've been saying? My premise was never centered around whether or not the biblical figures practiced the same form of Judaism that is practiced today but rather the simple fact that they were Jewish, as stated in the scriptures.

Yes, sure, but all I'm saying is that it depends on what you mean by "Jewish". Some knowledge of their historical origin is helpful to understand.

[Loki]

You can look through the scope of Richmond\Meade, he is pro-Israel but lives in perpetual fear of having any Jewish ancestry any time he disclosures his ancestry.

That's weird.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Loki can be right regarding their faith but does it change anything regarding Jesus and his disciples being Jewish, which is what I've been saying? My premise was never centered around whether or not the biblical figures practiced the same form of Judaism that is practiced today but rather the simple fact that they were Jewish, as stated in the scriptures.

Yes, we can trace an ethnical and even racial continuum from New Testament people to today jews, no discussion.

But Pre-Babylonical is passible of discussion into historical scope, but not in matter of faith.

I'm reading more modern and current catholic translations of Bible, they are tending to assume that their texts are more allegorical than historical facts, despite still Divinely inspirited and instructive.

The great problem today in the world, with a great diversity of peoples living together as never before, is to use the faith of few, to justify politics for all. Or we are entering in the Age of Conciliation, or we are going to Apocalypse...

[Sacrificed Ram]

Yes, I have French Huguenot ancestry :) I don't think they came from Brazil, though. And no, I don't show Amerind genes.

Oh, the struggles of past don't make sense today, imagine we have a calvinist and a catholic church side by side in Brazil...
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-p/07/f4/0d/55/igreja-de-sao-sebastiao.jpg

[Dick]

It is nonsense.
No sane Orthodox Christian would fight for Israel.

It is American Protestant fallacy.

The Evangelical cult are more loyal to Israel than to America. They believe that the messiah can’t return if Israel dosnt exist. Evangelicalism is more of a crypto-Jewish phenomenon than an actual Christian faith

[Loki]

The Evangelical cult are more loyal to Israel than to America. They believe that the messiah can’t return if Israel dosnt exist. Evangelicalism is more of a crypto-Jewish phenomenon than an actual Christian faith

That's true, unfortunately. I may add that it's not all Evangelicals who have this mindset and ideology, but a shockingly high percentage. It's more a modern phenomenon, and mostly American. Early Protestants like Martin Luther, etc had a completely different view.

[Dick]

That's true, unfortunately. I may add that it's not all Evangelicals who have this mindset and ideology, but a shockingly high percentage. It's more a modern phenomenon, and mostly American. Early Protestants like Martin Luther, etc had a completely different view.

It's a more modern phenom due to the fact that 33rd degree freemasons have infiltrated churches in the west let alone governments. The evangelist Billy Graham comes to mind.