Phenotypes of the French Alps

[Beraud]

A (big) collection of natives of the Hautes-Alpes department, in south-eastern France. It is the highest French department and borders Italy to the East. Linguistically it is part of the Occitan zone.
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Although the natives are descended from the local Iron Age (Celtic) population , I think it's useful to make a quick sum-up of the different people who were recorded in the area :
- local Celts (Caturiges, Quariates, Brigani, Tricorii..) ;
- Romans, although there were no important cities in the region, in contrast to the rest of southern Gaul ;
- Germanic tribes roaming the region : Ostrogoths, Saxons, Wisigoths, Burgundians (note that the Germanic presence remained sparse and only temporary, even the Burgundians who eventually controled the region left no traces unlike in other regions to the north) ;
- arrival of Carolingian Frankish aristocracy in the 8th/9th centuries AD ;
- Sarracens raiding the area throughout the 10th century, from their base in coastal Provence. They were eventually defeated and slaughtered in 965 and 980 AD.

Now let's see the pictures.
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(Continue in the replies)

[Beraud]

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[Beowulf]

i see a lot of dinarization

[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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[Oliver109]

Quite a few Hither Asiatic strains, alpines, atlantids, some Borrebies, norics, meds.
Out of interest do you think the composer George Butterworth would have been really typical as a local there?
https://thelistenersclub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/11/p042jdfv.v1.jpg

[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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[Beraud]

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And that's it.

[Beraud]

i see a lot of dinarization

Dinarization of what ?

[Beraud]

Quite a few Hither Asiatic strains, alpines, atlantids, some Borrebies, norics, meds.
Out of interest do you think the composer George Butterworth would have been really typical as a local there?
https://thelistenersclub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/11/p042jdfv.v1.jpg

Yeah, diversity is the word here. Butterworth definitely could pass as one of them, but it might just be the ´stache, lol

[Oliver109]

Yeah, diversity is the word here. Butterworth definitely could pass as one of them, but it might just be the ´stache, lol

Lol true, very diverse lot though strongly showing alpine mixed with med influences, Elgar who you have probably heard of could easily pass there too, a lot of English composers have an alpine-dinarid strain that wouldn't look out of place there.

[aherne]

Southern European looking. Phenotypes of the French have changed dramatically since then:

- Lyon, Chamonix, Annecy: subnordids/norids are very common now among natives. At least half of people I saw had light eyes and blonde hair, even in adults, was far from rare (even though chestnut is the "norm")

One interesting thing is that phenotypes are not stable. People 100 years ago look nothing like people today: they were much shorter, more round faced, big hands, etc...

[Ruggery]

Apparently having a mustache was fashionable at that time.

[Beowulf]

Dinarization of what ?

sorry i've didn't got the notification when you quoted me.

i mean a lot of the people you posted have some kind of Dinarization(mostly mixed) like Baskid Keltic nordids, or other dinarid like phenotypes

[Ruggery]

Southern European looking. Phenotypes of the French have changed dramatically since then:

- Lyon, Chamonix, Annecy: subnordids/norids are very common now among natives. At least half of people I saw had light eyes and blonde hair, even in adults, was far from rare (even though chestnut is the "norm")

One interesting thing is that phenotypes are not stable. People 100 years ago look nothing like people today: they were much shorter, more round faced, big hands, etc...

Are you saying that the French of 100 years ago were less Nordic than they are now?

[Beraud]

Southern European looking. Phenotypes of the French have changed dramatically since then:

- Lyon, Chamonix, Annecy: subnordids/norids are very common now among natives. At least half of people I saw had light eyes and blonde hair, even in adults, was far from rare (even though chestnut is the "norm")

One interesting thing is that phenotypes are not stable. People 100 years ago look nothing like people today: they were much shorter, more round faced, big hands, etc...


Light features were not rare among natives of the region you quoted. Remember the photos I posted are from a more southern region, with a mediterranean-alpine climate and part of the Occitan linguistic area. I agree tho that phenotypes have changed in a century : people are taller, they have less square jaws, they have softer hands, they have lighter skin because of less time spent in the sun..

[Beraud]

sorry i've didn't got the notification when you quoted me.

i mean a lot of the people you posted have some kind of Dinarization(mostly mixed) like Baskid Keltic nordids, or other dinarid like phenotypes

Oh okay yeah makes sense

[Beraud]

Lol true, very diverse lot though strongly showing alpine mixed with med influences, Elgar who you have probably heard of could easily pass there too, a lot of English composers have an alpine-dinarid strain that wouldn't look out of place there.


Didn't know of Elgar, looked him up and he looks even more like these guys. Overall there are resemblances between some Englishmen and some Frenchmen. I think in the last genetic study of Anglo-Saxon England they found that modern southern and especially south-eastern English people have up to 43% of "French" descent.

[Boudin]

Averaged 7 with https://facefuse.netlify.app/

https://i.imgur.com/Kbocex3.png

[Gallicus]

Didn't know of Elgar, looked him up and he looks even more like these guys. Overall there are resemblances between some Englishmen and some Frenchmen. I think in the last genetic study of Anglo-Saxon England they found that modern southern and especially south-eastern English people have up to 43% of "French" descent.

It was quite stupid of them to label it as "French" as it probably goes back to the Bronze age...

[Beraud]

It was quite stupid of them to label it as "French" as it probably goes back to the Bronze age...

They are Iron Age samples from northern France, and appear to be indistinguishable from modern natives of northern France.

[Petalpusher]

Contrary to popular belief it's not southwest England or the Welsh who are the most French like, they are actually the least. The most are East Anglia, that study showed that.

The FR IA they use are indeed clustering the same as present day France. Another low blow for that Italian guy renaissance who thinks the entire country, and the whole Europe really, was replaced by Romans. Rollseyes.

[Gallicus]

They are Iron Age samples from northern France, and appear to be indistinguishable from modern natives of northern France.

Yes but that goes back to a time France did not even exist

[Beraud]

Yes but that goes back to a time France did not even exist

What even is you point here ? The English show admixture from a population from northern France that is undistinguishable from modern natives of northern France and we shouldn't call that admixture French ? lol