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The Lawspeaker
04-14-2009, 08:46 PM
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The Hanseatic League in the Eastern Baltic
By Jennifer Mills
SCAND 344, May 1998

(http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/hansa.html#intro)
The Hanseatic League (Hansa) was formed around the middle of the 12th century by German and Scandinavian seafaring merchants. Since there were no navies to protect their cargoes, no international bodies to regulate tariffs and trade, and few ports had regulatory authorities to manage their use, the merchants banded together to establish tariff agreements, provide for common defense and to make sure ports were safely maintained.
The original network linked Lübeck, Westfalia, Saxony and Gotland, but it quickly spread east with the conquest of Livonia in the early 13th century. The league became so profitable and so powerful that it lasted over three centuries. At its peak, the Hanseatic League covered the entire North Sea and Baltic Sea Regions and it stretched hundreds of miles inland along rivers from the Rhine to the Daugava.

Though Hansa relations were primarily economic in nature, the League became a formidable political and military power in the 14th Century. The Baltic Region that is known today as Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania became a viable economic unit in the world market and participant in European politics via the relationships fostered by the Hansa.



The Rise of the Hanseatic League
The Hanseatic League followed the Livonian conquest into the eastern Baltic in search of Russian goods, agricultural products and raw materials for shipbuilding. The Daugava (Düna), Dnepr and Volga rivers were important trade routes into Russia and connecting Europe to Asia as early as the eighth and ninth centuries. For this reason, the first and most important of the eastern Baltic trading cities, Riga, was established in 1201 at the mouth of the Daugava.

German Hansa merchants quickly established trade routes into the interior of Livonia and along the Baltic coast. To the north, the Danish crown claimed Tallinn (Reval), which was to become the second most important Hansa town in Livonia, in 1219. The town of Tartu (Dorpat) was situated on the Russian border along the route to Pskov. It played an important role as entry point for the majority of the Russian goods from the north bound for Riga. Viljandi (Fellin) became the largest city along the land routes from Riga to Tallinn, Tartu and Narva. Pärnu (Pernau) was a port city at the mouth of the river of the same name, but as the second city on the Gulf of Riga, played a lesser role in trade than any of the aforementioned cities. Narva would become the sixth of the major Hansa trading towns in Livonia, but because of its proximity to Novgorod, it remained relatively unimportant until the 16th Century.

Novgorod was the largest Russian town on the Gulf of Finland, beyond the ports of Narva and Tallinn. It never fully joined the Hanseatic League, but in 1259, the League established a Kontor, a trading post, which enjoyed most of the Baltic trade for Russian goods for at least a century and eliminated the need for ships to sail the dangerous northern route around Scandinavia.



The Merchant Hansa
Throughout the 13th century, the Hanseatic League remained an organization of merchants. To be more exact, it was an organization of German merchants. Merchants who were not German and did not belong to the Hansa (so-called non-Germans were forbidden from joining the League) faced severe trade restrictions in the Baltic. The Livonian towns refused to permit direct trading between foreign merchants within their walls. This irritated the Wendish members of the League, who were thereby prevented from negotiating directly with Russian merchants.

The local population of Livonia slowly became subject to German feudal lords during this period. The lords demanded rents from peasant tenants in the form of agricultural products and/or money rents. The lords then sold their surpluses to merchants in the cities for profit, creating a profit-seeking landed upper class linked to a profit-seeking merchant middle class in the cities. In order to keep their profits high, the landlords forbid peasants from trading with the merchants in the cities and kept peasant land tracts small. At times, this led to conflict between the merchants and landowning classes because the merchants could draw higher profits if they bought directly from peasants.

In Lithuania, local merchants were subject to the laws of the grand Duchy of Lithuania and were free to conduct trade with Hansa merchants, but the Hansa merchants found it difficult to secure a monopoly on Lithuanian trade. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was hostile to the Germans after attempts at conquest. Tariffs were exacted at the Lithuanian borders with Poland and Livonia. Hansa merchants were tolerated, if they paid their tariffs, and developed trade routes through Lithuania all the way down to the Bug river where the Ukraine is today.


The "Städtehanse" League of Hanseatic Cities
The Hanseatic League began to evolve into a network of towns around the turn of the 14th Century. It became a "powerful compact of cities" in the 14th Century, "with far-reaching trade agreements and almost total control of North European trade." In 1280, Lübeck and Visby united to secure peace along the trade routes to Gotland (Sweden) and Novgorod (Russia). This was the beginning of the city Hansa. Two years later, Riga joined them, and become the first Hanseatic City in Livonia. Tallinn was the next Livonian city to join the group.

One by one, the cities in Livonia joined the Hanseatic League. Estonian cities which belonged to the Hanseatic League at some point in the history of the League include: Tallinn, Pärnu (Pernau), Tartu (Dorpat), Viljandi (Fellin), Narva, Haapsalu, Rakvere, and Paide. Latvian cities belonging to the Hansa included Riga, Cêsis (Wenden), Ventspils (Windau), Kuldiga (Goldingen), Valka (Walk), Valmiera (Wolmar), Limbazi (Lemsal), Koknese (Kokenhusen), and Straupe. One post was established in Lithuania at Kaunas (Kowno) and Vilnius (Wilno) was an important trading point for products destined for Hanseatic markets.

In 1346 the Hanseatic League granted the right of emporium to Riga, Tallinn and Pärnu. The right of emporium entitled the city to demand that all goods destined for Russia be unloaded, weighed and reloaded when passing through the city. The idea behind this law was that merchants would be encouraged to sell their lasts in Riga rather than bothering to reload them. As a result, only one sixth of the goods that went into Riga as late as the 18th Century went on to other cities.

A similar law was passed in Tartu, requiring merchants to unload their goods and offer them for sale for a minimum of four days before they could move on.


Political Structures and Influence of the Hanseatic League
A Hanseatic Diet was established in 1284, but did not begin meeting regularly until 1356. The Diet concerned itself with negotiations with foreign towns or rulers, ratification of trading agreements or privileges, trade and commercial blockades, financial matters, military issues, membership expansion or exclusion of member towns, conflicts within the members, conflicts with feudal nobility, and competition policy

The League could be broken down into 3 Hanseats: the Wendish-Saxon Hansa (the most powerful group), the Westphalian-Prussian Hansa and the Livonian-Gotlandic Hansa. A Livonian Hanseatic Diet was established in the late 13th Century, which concerned itself primarily with trade negotiations with Russian cities. Riga was the chair of this Diet, and Riga and Tartu had sole jurisdiction over the port of Novgorod, such that either could call the Diet to order.

Politically, the Livonian metropols also exercised a certain amount of power over cities in which the Hansa had branch posts. Riga oversaw the posts in Smolensk and Polozk, Tallinn oversaw Rasborg and Viborg in Finland, and Dorpat oversaw Pleskau (Pskov). The post at Kaunas in Lithuania was overseen by Danzig (Gdansk), although the nobility of rural Livland, Kurland and Lithuania were loyal trade partners with Riga merchants into the 17th century.

It is important to note that Hansa organs did not replace city organs, and some scholars consider the Diet nothing more than a "meeting". The Hanseatic League had "no executive officials of their own" and "no common council," according to one scholar, and the League deliberately evaded classification as a society or corporation, in part to avoid legal action against the League.


Guilds and production in the Livonian cities
The Hanseatic League’s effect on production in the eastern Baltic was not entirely positive. The import of west European products limited the need for a wide range of artisans and professions in the Baltic cities. The primary professionals in the trading towns were merchants. The merchants drew their profits from the sale of raw materials for shipbuilding and agricultural products. The other artisans in Livonia from the 13th – 17th centuries were engaged in simple production, and were not profit oriented.

The artisans in the cities were organized by guilds. In the large cities, guilds were organized by trade (for example, the shoemakers, blacksmiths and butchers each had their own guild). In some cities there was a "Great Guild", similar to a generalized labor union, that admitted many different types of artisans and functioned as an umbrella organization for the smaller guilds. These guilds helped to raise social values for work, secured education for artisans, ensured product quality and consolidated the various trades. On the negative side, however, guilds set limits on competition, limited the number of artisans who could be involved in a trade and stifled innovation in the trades.

In addition, most guilds excluded non-German artisans and often sought to force them out of the cities. At the end of the 14th Century, Estonians were prohibited from obtaining membership in the guilds. Tartu’s guilds were exclusively open to German residents. This was accomplished by limiting the membership in a guild to citizens of the city, and the Estonian and Russian minorities were excluded from citizenship until 1787 . Smaller guilds for local and Russian artisans developed in some cities, but their clientele was limited to other non-Germans.

Most cities did not have guilds for millers, brewers or shipbuilders, so the wealthy merchants often chose to invest their capital in such enterprises. Merchant capital was also used for investments in raw materials and in loans to artisans. Merchants were quick to turn lending into profiteering and many artisans and peasants became indebted to city merchants beyond their means.


Relations between Hanseatic Cities and the Hinterland
The Eastern Baltic provided large quantities of grain to European merchants, but the majority of the products coming out of Riga were shipbuilding materials such as flax for sailmaking, hemp for ropes, timber from the Daugava Basin and the upper course of the Dnepr and wax. From Russia, furs, leather, wax and rye were exported through the Livonian cities.

The Vorstädte (suburbs, smaller towns neighboring big cities) in Lithuania became popular places for business transactions in the 15th century. In these marketplaces newcomers were welcome (nobility and farmers leaving the countryside), there was more space than in the cities to build big mills and citizenship was easier to obtain, and there was more socio-economic mobility than in the large cities of Livonia.

There is very little research on the role of the Livonian countryside in the 13th-17th centuries, partly because fires in the 17th and 18th Centuries destroyed Riga and Pärnu’s records and also because the peasantry was still illiterate at the time. We do know that the city merchants played the role of price-setter and the farmers were price takers in the medieval towns. Otherwise, the relations between city and hinterland played an underemphasized role in the writing of Baltic economic history.

Merchants usually traveled to marketplaces spread throughout the countryside to collect grain and products for sale in the cities in the middle ages. Each merchant was responsible for a particular area and dealt regularly with the same peasants. Often, the merchants would provide peasants with loans for products and tools. There were only a few peasants who had land of their own in the 15th and 16th Century. The city merchants liked to take advantage of poorer Germans or Lithuanian peasants who were not restricted from owning land like the Livonian peasants. Landowning peasants frequently became indebted to merchants, and debt was tied to the land such that the succeeding landowner would inherit the debts of the previous landowner, regardless of familial ties.

During the Swedish period (18th Century), some peasants managed to escape their manors and develop landholdings of their own. Others turned to profiteering themselves and would leave their land fallow for a season, then buy the surpluses of their indebted neighbors who feared the city merchants. The peasant would then bring several loads of crops into the city and sell them for profit. In this way, some peasants were able to escape their debts for a season or two, but many were caught and brought to court for illegal trade practices.

Beyond the city walls in Livonia, most of the peasants belonged to feudal manors governed by landlords of German descent. From the 14th Century to the 16th Century, the feudal lords demanded payment of tenant rents in the form of product or money rents. In the 17th Century, this shifted to labor rents. The system of labor rents was harder on the peasants than the previous methods. Peasants would be forced to work long days on the manor during the harvest and could not harvest their own crops to provide for their families. This became an additional incentive to engage in illegal surplus sales.

Competition and the demise of the Hanseatic League

The heyday of the Hanseatic League lasted from the rise of the Städtehanse through the 15th Century. The Baltic cities, however, did not suffer from the decline as did the Wendish cities. Instead, they profited from increased competition between the Hansa, the Nordic Union (Scandinavian merchants) and Dutch traders on the Baltic Sea. The Age of Exploration finally drew world trade away from the Baltic in the 17th and 18th Centuries.

In 1494, Ivan III, the Grand Duke of Muscovy closed the Peterhof and the Hansa Kontor (Post) in Novgorod, but by this time, trade in Russian goods had already shifted to the Livonian towns. Several years later, Ivan IV reopened the Peterhof, but it was too late to recover the trade in Russian goods from outlets at Narva and Riga.

Distribution of Hanseatic Trade Throughout the Baltic Region
Estonian and Latvian cities reaped huge profits from Hanseatic trade. Their connections to the Hansa were stronger than Lithuanian contacts because there were a large proportion of Germans in Livonia. Lithuania, on the other hand, retained its independence as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and eventually came under Polish rule. German settlers were unwelcome in Lithuania and local peasants had more control over their own lands and product than in Livonia, where higher profits could be made by Hansa merchants. Nonetheless, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was an important supplier of agricultural products and forest products from the banks of the Daugava to the Hansa through the Livonian Hansa port at Riga.


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Source. (http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/hansa.html)

Inese
04-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Hanseatic league was very important for development of Latvia!! :thumbs up In middle ages my country had a good time with the hanse and the lifestandards were rising. We was rich and a integrated part of the European North. Situation became bad when we were disconnected from the others and lost out wealth. :(

My hometown Kuldiga in West Latvia was part of the Hanse too. :) The best thing is that Kuldiga is part of the new Hanse since 1991! We are again in the family of hanseatic cities.

Here is an interesting english article about my Kuldiga from the official Hanse-site:

http://www.hanse.org/en/hanseatic-cities/kuldiga-tourism

Hors
04-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Hanseatic league was very important for development of Latvia!! In middle ages my country had a good time with the hanse and the lifestandards were rising.

It was standart of living of ethnic Germans of Livonia, the masters of the country, and not Latvians who were poor as parish rats and treatred like cattle, they were even denied the right to enter "your" town of Kuldiga.

The Lawspeaker
04-15-2009, 07:45 PM
Evidence of p.ss off !

Sigurd
04-16-2009, 09:43 AM
It was standart of living of ethnic Germans of Livonia, the masters of the country, and not Latvians who were poor as parish rats and treatred like cattle, they were even denied the right to enter "your" town of Kuldiga.

A Russian, or any Slav should be the last person to judge upon another ethnicity's treatment of the Balts. Polish and Russian aggression against these peoples has carried on for over 1,000 years and Russian treatment of Balts under Soviet sovereignty is more than just a few inches short of exemplary.

Whilst German treatment of Latvians wasn't always exemplary, it was at least at any stage better than the treatment they received from Russians, and at any rate, we traditionally championed its security throughout history, which is by the way one of the reasons why they tend to be rather fond of us.

But then again, it goes to show a bit of Slavic character if 140 million Russians see 1.2 million Estonians as the biggest threat to their nation. You exemplify this ignorance and your identification with Slavic Neo-Imperialism again and again in your attitude towards Balts. I only have to read your signature to see that ... your presence here appears to be a mixture of preaching outdated Soviet Imperialism and provoking Inese wherever you go.

Sometimes, dear Hors, people should know that if they have nothing constructive to say, then perhaps they should say nothing at all. :rolleyes2:

Hors
04-16-2009, 01:02 PM
A Russian, or any Slav should be the last person to judge upon another ethnicity's treatment of the Balts.

I beg to differ. It should be a German, or any Germanic.


Polish and Russian aggression against these peoples has carried on for over 1,000 years and Russian treatment of Balts

You're pulling mu leg. Russian treat the Balts as human beings, unlike their previous German masters. Russians even allowed Latvians to live in cities of Latvia, even thou this decision was damagin for Russo-German relations.


Whilst German treatment of Latvians wasn't always exemplary, it was at least at any stage better than the treatment they received from Russians, and at any rate, we traditionally championed its security throughout history, which is by the way one of the reasons why they tend to be rather fond of us.

It's just your unsubstantiated opinion.


But then again, it goes to show a bit of Slavic character if 140 million Russians see 1.2 million Estonians as the biggest threat to their nation.

Once again, it's just your fantasies.


You exemplify this ignorance and your identification with Slavic Neo-Imperialism again and again in your attitude towards Balts.

If protection of basic rights of the Russian ethnic minority in the Baltic States is Imperialism... OK, I'm an Imperialist.


I only have to read your signature to see that ...

What? Don't like the truth much?


Sometimes, dear Hors, people should know that if they have nothing constructive to say, then perhaps they should say nothing at all.

It's good you don't follow this wisdom personally. We'd be missing you here otherwise...

Inese
04-16-2009, 04:21 PM
Just shut up the only one who no one misses is you Hors with your dirty mouth!!

Hmmm you should go fighting with other Russian like you......

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07d48iw6gIdF6/610x.jpg
Mongrel party!! :rolleyes2:

Äike
04-16-2009, 04:41 PM
A Russian, or any Slav should be the last person to judge upon another ethnicity's treatment of the Balts. Polish and Russian aggression against these peoples has carried on for over 1,000 years and Russian treatment of Balts under Soviet sovereignty is more than just a few inches short of exemplary.

Whilst German treatment of Latvians wasn't always exemplary, it was at least at any stage better than the treatment they received from Russians, and at any rate, we traditionally championed its security throughout history, which is by the way one of the reasons why they tend to be rather fond of us.

But then again, it goes to show a bit of Slavic character if 140 million Russians see 1.2 million Estonians as the biggest threat to their nation. You exemplify this ignorance and your identification with Slavic Neo-Imperialism again and again in your attitude towards Balts. I only have to read your signature to see that ... your presence here appears to be a mixture of preaching outdated Soviet Imperialism and provoking Inese wherever you go.

Sometimes, dear Hors, people should know that if they have nothing constructive to say, then perhaps they should say nothing at all. :rolleyes2:

Just a quick correction. Because of Russians, who exterminated our people on purpose A.K.A genocide. There are under 1 million Estonians. 900 000 in Estonia. There were 1,2 million before world war 2.

There are a total of 1,3 million people in Estonia. But only 68% are Estonian.
Because of the USSR of course. Nothing good comes from Russia.

Inese
04-16-2009, 04:52 PM
Hello Karl!! You are from Estonia! :thumbs up Now i have a Baltic brother in the board!! :cool:

Hors
04-16-2009, 06:17 PM
Just a quick correction. Because of Russians, who exterminated our people on purpose A.K.A genocide.

Why are YOU still around then?

Why every creep who decries this or that genocide represent an ethnicity which only augmented in size under the Russian rule?



There are under 1 million Estonians. 900 000 in Estonia. There were 1,2 million before world war 2.

The stats doesn't strike me as evidence of genocide.


There are a total of 1,3 million people in Estonia. But only 68% are Estonian.
Because of the USSR of course. Nothing good comes from Russia.

YAWN

Äike
04-16-2009, 06:47 PM
Why are YOU still around then?

Why every creep who decries this or that genocide represent an ethnicity which only augmented in size under the Russian rule?




The stats doesn't strike me as evidence of genocide.



YAWN

Putting tens of thousands of Estonians on animal wagons and sending them to Siberia, many died on the way and even more died in Siberia. Isn't that genocide? And of course, the executions of people who did show anything similar to nationalism. Many of my relatives were shot, because my grandmother's uncle was a soldier/war hero in the Estonian Waffen SS. He even got an Iron Cross for extreme bravery.

Slowly exterminating the Estonian people and replacing them with other people who don't belong there. That's just too bad. They could have at least sent people here, who look like us. Not some dark shady looking Russians.

Looks like every forum has at least ONE nostalgic commie/imperialistic Russian.

Imperialism is the opposite of nationalism. I hope that everyone realize that.

Hors
04-16-2009, 06:57 PM
Putting tens of thousands of Estonians on animal wagons and sending them to Siberia, many died on the way and even more died in Siberia. Isn't that genocide?

No. Look up the definition in a dictionary.


And of course, the executions of people who did show anything similar to nationalism.

Why "of course"?


Many of my relatives were shot, because my grandmother's uncle was a soldier/war hero in the Estonian Waffen SS. He even got an Iron Cross for extreme bravery.

The SS bastard got an Iron Cross and his relatives were left alive. Pox on Stalin and his henchmen. They were evidently anti-Russian creeps.

Äike
04-16-2009, 07:10 PM
No. Look up the difinition in a dictionary.

If 30% of Estonians were totally wiped out then I call that genocide.

If events where 5% or 10% of some ethnicity is killed. Then I think that I can safely call the crimes that Russians did on my people, genocide.



The SS bastard got an Iron Cross and his relatives were left alive. Pox on Stalin and his henchmen. They were evidently anti-Russian creeps.

He was fighting for the freedom of Estonia. Already in 1940 people were killed and sent to Siberia. He killed no Jews, he only killed Russians. The Russian troops weren't very skilled so he killed a lot of them. Estonian people already knew that if USSR conquers them again. Then they might be wiped out totally. And they were correct. After USSR conquered Estonia again. Then the killings and sending people to Siberia continued. If USSR wouldn't have fallen apart in 1991, then the Estonian people would have gone extinct quite soon.

Hors
04-16-2009, 07:46 PM
If 30% of Estonians were totally wiped out then I call that genocide.

*IF*

Are we discussing fiction or alternatve history here?


He was fighting for the freedom of Estonia. Already in 1940 people were killed and sent to Siberia. He killed no Jews, he only killed Russians. The Russian troops weren't very skilled so he killed a lot of them.

I hear this kind of story oh so often. In fact, Estonian SS were used mostly against civilians, drowning in blood Belarussian villages, and when finally they were sent to encounter the Red Army they were beaten into jelly in no time.



Estonian people already knew that if USSR conquers them again. Then they might be wiped out totally. And they were correct. After USSR conquered Estonia again. Then the killings and sending people to Siberia continued.

Damn, how come YOU are alive?!


If USSR wouldn't have fallen apart in 1991, then the Estonian people would have gone extinct quite soon.

LOL

But don't worry. Estonians are not viable. You'll extinct anyway, and soon.

Sigurd
04-16-2009, 08:03 PM
If protection of basic rights of the Russian ethnic minority in the Baltic States is Imperialism... OK, I'm an Imperialist.

That minority was virtually non-existant before Soviet rule, or at least relatively minor.

So sure there were Italians in South Tyrol before WWI, but that was about 3%, as opposed to 92% indigenous Germans and 5% indigenous Ladiners.

Then Mussolini moved his 70,000 north from Apulia and placed them into Bozen, put up the "Victory Monument" which still stands and reads "Here we taught [those Barbarians] culture, language and literature", many other Italo-Fascist monuments still stand and the police are very biased towards the German group.

And if I witnessed that an Italian came along and told my already oppressed ethnic brothers (they are too, Tyrolese-Bavarian Germans) that this oppression was just to "protect basic rights of the Italian population there", he'd meet a bunch of clenched knuckles fairly soon, and I'm not a violent person. :coffee:

Perhaps this is why I believe I understand the Baltic Question in regards to Russians and how they have run down formerly well-functioning countries all too well, and have extended sympathy for their fate. :wink


What? Don't like the truth much?

Truth is not worth much if used selectively and all the big, bad parts are left out. Sure, it's not a lie, so perhaps it's acceptable in everyday inter-personal use --- but to build a whole worldview on partial-truths and half-truths is a bit sad, TBH.

But that was not my main point. My point was rather - what is your obsession with Latvians and why the need to slag them off all the time. A little bitter because your measly vodka-hut could never rival their pride? :coffee:


It's good you don't follow this wisdom personally. We'd be missing you here otherwise...

I struck a deal with Loki to keep out of intra-forum squabbles in the open forum almost two months ago and have kept to it since. I would assume that if you checked my postcount of the past 1 1/2 or 2 months, you would find that from then on it was at large, productive and constructive. :)

Hors
04-16-2009, 08:40 PM
That minority was virtually non-existant before Soviet rule, or at least relatively minor.

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Back in 1935 Latvians made up 75% of the population. And that's after ethnic cleansings and deportations of Russians.



Truth is not worth much if used selectively and all the big, bad parts are left out. Sure, it's not a lie, so perhaps it's acceptable in everyday inter-personal use --- but to build a whole worldview on partial-truths and half-truths is a bit sad, TBH.

Elaborate, please.


But that was not my main point. My point was rather - what is your obsession with Latvians and why the need to slag them off all the time. A little bitter because your measly vodka-hut could never rival their pride?

I'm not sure what you're talking about... Their pride of the ruined industry and infrastructure, enourmous debt, Latvians cleaning toilettes in Ireland, prostitution being the only flourishing business?

Sigurd
04-16-2009, 09:52 PM
Back in 1935 Latvians made up 75% of the population. And that's after ethnic cleansings and deportations of Russians.

And after ethnic cleansing by Russians during Soviet times and systematic colonisation by Russians, they're less than 60%. From what I gather, of the near-enough 40% of Russians in the country, most refuse to learn the language, and a good number of Russians are involved in "crooked business".

Even before that, Russification under the Russian Empire was compulsory. Similar measures will thus have been applied already in Tsarist times.


Elaborate, please.

I'm currently too lazy to conjure up the details, but you should know yourself best that much of Latvian effort on the same front/side as the Russians started no earlier than 1916 and ended no later than 1920.

After that, Latvian-Russian relations were anything but good as Latvians soon learnt the real intention of Russians. Sure, there were some notable Latvian communist leaders, but very few of them had anything to do with even the Red Riflemen whatsoever.

As regards initial sympathy to communist credentials as early as the attempted 1905 revolution - this would perhaps have been a desparate attempt to oppose the compulsory Russification under the Russian Tsarist Empire.

And for the treatment of Latvians by Russians during the Second World War, when they re-occupied the country, I heavily recommend a standard work: Kovalevskis, Noritis & Goppers (Eds.), Latvia: Year of Horror, which especially focusses on the 1940-41 period.


I'm not sure what you're talking about... Their pride of the ruined industry and infrastructure, enourmous debt,

The industry and infrastructure was ruined by your Russian countrymen and the enormous debt was built up by the very same. :rolleyes:


Latvians cleaning toilettes in Ireland,

Personally, I have not come across any ethnic Latvians cleaning toilets, but the minority who may well do at least do more honest work than the Russian scroungers in my hometown who fight with Turks and Moroccans for predominance in the drug-dealing and women-trafficking businesses, respectively.

Instead, most Latvians (and Lithuanians) I have come across over here, tend to be normal workers with whom it is not to difficult to connect. They also tend to exhibit a more healthy work ethic than I encounter amongst Poles or Russians, which must be held to their honour.


prostitution being the only flourishing business?

Women-trafficking in the Baltic and therefrom is a Russian-dominated business, both as far as the agents are concerned as well as the girls. I am under the solid impression that all those Latvian or Lithuanian girls whose name is something like Olga Ruskova are really Russian girls, my linguistics are good enough to determine that.

A brief inspection of the "flourishing prostitution business" would soon reveal that it is a puppet show run by corrupt Russian mafiosi. :coffee:

Hors
04-17-2009, 06:03 AM
And after ethnic cleansing by Russians during Soviet times and systematic colonisation by Russians, they're less than 60%.

the point is that Latvia always had significant Russian presence, since times immemorials


From what I gather, of the near-enough 40% of Russians in the country, most refuse to learn the language,

Most are old and simply incapable of learning any language

it's inhuman to demand from them to learna foreign language in order to get citizenship of the country they were born in and/or lived most of their life


and a good number of Russians are involved in "crooked business".

LOL

Latvia is a fascist ethnic state controlled by Latvians. The civil service is staffed almost exclusively by Latvians. Smuggling, money laundering etc. can not be done without them having a share.


Even before that, Russification under the Russian Empire was compulsory. Similar measures will thus have been applied already in Tsarist times.

What Russification?


I'm currently too lazy to conjure up the details, but you should know yourself best that much of Latvian effort on the same front/side as the Russians started no earlier than 1916 and ended no later than 1920.

You're still talking in riddles.


The industry and infrastructure was ruined by your Russian countrymen and the enormous debt was built up by the very same.

It was built by the Russians and sold/ruined by Latvians who after squandering of what was left afterthe USSR started to live on borrowed money.


Personally, I have not come across...

Your personal anecdotal experience is of little interest, as I'm sure you realize yourself


Women-trafficking in the Baltic and therefrom is a Russian-dominated business

Latvian police is staffed by ethnic Latvians, that's who is in control.

Sigurd
04-17-2009, 08:57 AM
Most are old and simply incapable of learning any language

it's inhuman to demand from them to learna foreign language in order to get citizenship of the country they were born in and/or lived most of their life

Ladiners in South Tyrol have never had trouble to learn German. And even the Burgenland Croats (minus that vile Greens-MP Terezija Stoisits) tend to not have a problem learning German and generally seek to contribute to culture. (The Carinthian Slovenes are more reluctant)

The fact that either of these groups always learnt German also meant that they were and are disproportionately represented: Luis Trenker (director), Hansjörg "Giorgio" Moroder (Oscar-winning composer), Katharina Lanz (freedom fighter against Napoleon) and several notable skiiers for the Ladiners; Lukas Resetarits (actor), Willi "Ostbahn-Kurti" Resetarits (musician), Fred Sinowatz (chancellor), Barbara Karlich (talkshow host), Thomas Parits, Andreas Ivanschitz (both notable footballers), Norbert Darabos (leading politician) for the Burgenland Croats.

Similar such notable contributions, household names of Russians in Latvian households seem to be somewhat scarce. Perhaps this is also because they have traditionally chosen to identify with the "Motherland" rather than see themselves as a distinct enclave within another country?

But either way, they're trying to steer a country clearly not theirs into a direction which favours their old Soviet mindset.


Latvia is a fascist ethnic state controlled by Latvians.

How soon the F-Word is uttered again. Getting back into Soviet patterns of behaviour?


The civil service is staffed almost exclusively by Latvians. Smuggling, money laundering etc. can not be done without them having a share.

If there's no Russian as the direct middle-man, then it's the next one higher up. Don't deny it.

Ya know, most of our civil service is staffed almost exclusively by Germans. That doesn't mean that others don't have their dirty fingers in play in steering the puppets.

In Latvia and the Baltic in general puppet-steering and running-down the economy is the general business of Russians.

I got a taste of Russian attitudes to "gentleman's agreements" last November when I was flat-hunting. And that's in the UK, mind you. I was told once that "Hand-shake quality does not imply that the hand-shake is quality when a Russian is involved", and that is all too true.


What Russification?

Read your own history.


Your personal anecdotal experience is of little interest, as I'm sure you realize yourself

No, instead I believe that my judgment as an outside is less biased because my experience with either ethnicity is what could be termed as "anecdotal". Meaning I have no formal ties to either country and can assess from experience rather than identification.

My experience with Latvians, and Baltics in general, has been at large positive, whilst my experience with Russians could not have meen any more negative.

I can only base my objective judgment on what I have seen, granted - but if I go by "my anecdotal experience", then the Russians aren't coming out of this particularly well.


Latvian police is staffed by ethnic Latvians, that's who is in control.

And He who thinks that the common policeman on patrol has anything to decide whatsoever, clearly hasn't understood the way the world works yet.:rolleyes2:

Hors
04-17-2009, 09:16 AM
If there's no Russian as the direct middle-man, then it's the next one higher up. Don't deny it.

Yeah, Latvia is run by Russians :D

LOL You're funny.


In Latvia and the Baltic in general puppet-steering and running-down the economy is the general business of Russians.

Who is interested in your unsubstantiated absurd personal opinions? Not me.



Read your own history.

I don't read alternative history books you enjoy reading

Sigurd, your posts are remarkably devoid of substance. I hardly find pieces worth to make a one or two word comment.

Do you have anything to say on the subject, that's shitty treatment of Latvians by their German masters?

Äike
04-17-2009, 01:04 PM
*IF*

Are we discussing fiction or alternatve history here?

It's a clear fact that is recorded. There were about 1,3 million Estonians before WW2. And because of the long term genocide, the population was at 700 000 once. So I'm sorry. Even more then 30% of our people were killed. But our country has recovered a bit. And there are 900 000 of us. About 70% out of 1,3mil...




I hear this kind of story oh so often. In fact, Estonian SS were used mostly against civilians, drowning in blood Belarussian villages, and when finally they were sent to encounter the Red Army they were beaten into jelly in no time.

I advise you to brush up your history skills. Estonian Waffen SS (20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) was only used against Russian troops. It was a deal made between the Estonian people and Germany. We fight only if we can fight against the Russians and defend our country. After it's first battles, the 20th Waffen SS Grenadier Divison of the SS became famous in the 3rd Reich, because of it's bravery and beating almost impossible odds. The 20th Waffen SS Divison was never defeated by the Russians. When in Eastern Europe, the Germans lost hundreds of kilometers of land a week. Then the Estonian front was not moving. Our soldiers were too good for that. But Hitler did abandon the Baltics, because the Latvian and Lithuanian Waffen SS couldn't hold the front. And the big forces in Estonia would have been pocketed. Many men left the 20th Waffen SS division and went into the woods to be freedom fighters. But others had to retreat with the Germans. Many reached Western Germany and surrendered to the Allies.



Damn, how come YOU are alive?!

I'm a lucky guy, aren't I? Russians are the people who have single-handedly killed the most white people in the entire human history.




LOL

But don't worry. Estonians are not viable. You'll extinct anyway, and soon.

Openly wanting that some white people go extinct, that is against the forum rules and would need a ban. "Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation" .

But if you still aren't banned and are openly hostile towards other white people and wanting that their culture and ethnics die out. The OPPOSITE goal of this forum. Then you are probably safe. People at least see how a Russian behaves.

And I'll only say this once. Don't ever try to fool me with false history and made up stuff. I'm an expert in European history and you can't fool me.

Hors
04-17-2009, 01:38 PM
It's a clear fact that is recorded.

Post the facts



There were about 1,3 million Estonians before WW2. And because of the long term genocide, the population was at 700 000 once.

I don't see a connection. It's not PANF here, laddie. People here are intelligent and don't buy personal assertions.

Äike
04-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Post the facts

http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/estlosses.htm

http://www.stat.ee/26384

http://pub.stat.ee/px-web.2001/I_Databas/Population/01Population_indicators_and_composition/04Population_figure_and_composition/04Population_figure_and_composition.asp



I don't see a connection. It's not PANF here, laddie. People here are intelligent and don't buy personal assertions.

Good, I don't like PANF much. They accept non-whites into that forum. And they think that Arabs are white... That's just too wrong. I once registered there, but I left, because white people weren't a majority there.

Sigurd
04-17-2009, 02:11 PM
After it's first battles, the 20th Waffen SS Grenadier Divison of the SS became famous in the 3rd Reich, because of it's bravery and beating almost impossible odds. The 20th Waffen SS Divison was never defeated by the Russians.

Indeed, didn't a general once say he wished he had more Estonians? :thumb001:

Äike
04-17-2009, 02:18 PM
Indeed, didn't a general once say he wished he had more Estonians? :thumb001:

If there would have been more Estonian soldiers, then Germany maybe could have won the war:rolleyes2: who knows?

But our population wasn't large enough to send more then 100 000 men to the front:(

Loki
04-17-2009, 02:34 PM
Openly wanting that some white people go extinct, that is against the forum rules and would need a ban. "Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation" .


You're a new member here and have made only 16 posts. You can't call for established members to be banned already, that's a tad arrogant mate.

Hors
04-17-2009, 02:36 PM
I advise you to brush up your history skills. Estonian Waffen SS (20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) was only used against Russian troops.

The division itself was decimated in the very first encounter with the Red Army in Septemper of 1944 and in the same month was withdrawn from the front as it was not capable to contunue to fight. After that it fought in East Prussia and was finally partially destroyed and partially captured by the Red Army in Czechoslovakia.

Not very impressive, to put it mildly., but indeed it was not implicated in war crimes.

However, the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS was preceded by other Estonian SS formations which were used against civilians in Belarus and Lithuania. Entire villages were burned together with their inhabitants.

Hors
04-17-2009, 02:42 PM
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/estlosses.htm


TOTAL POPULATION AS OF OCTOBER 1939 WITHIN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS (TARTU PEACE TREATY OF 1920):

1,136,400

ARRESTED AND IMPRISIONED

8,000

EXECUTED OR DIED AS A RESULT OF TORTURE

7,450

ARRESTED AND DEPORTED TO LABOR CAMPS (MEN, SOME WOMEN) OR EXILE (MOST WOMEN AND CHILDREN, ORPHANS )

11,000

etc.

Thanks for posting the Estonian source (which, I'm sure, greatly exaggregate the figures) showing that there was no "genocide" at all.

Äike
04-17-2009, 02:46 PM
You're a new member here and have made only 16 posts. You can't call for established members to be banned already, that's a tad arrogant mate.

I am sorry, but the first thing I did when coming to this forum. I did read the forum rules. And now they are all memorized. Hors is breaking several of them and no action is taken. I'm just a new member here and I have no right and wish to decide anything here. That's for the admins to decide.

I totally respect the opinions of admins. I just pointed out that Hors is breaking several rules, I don't demand the banning of Hors. I truly hope that Hors is actually a fine lad who will stop being hostile towards many European ethnicities.

I'm sorry for being arrogant. I will try to behave.

Äike
04-17-2009, 02:51 PM
TOTAL POPULATION AS OF OCTOBER 1939 WITHIN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS (TARTU PEACE TREATY OF 1920):

1,136,400

ARRESTED AND IMPRISIONED

8,000

EXECUTED OR DIED AS A RESULT OF TORTURE

7,450

ARRESTED AND DEPORTED TO LABOR CAMPS (MEN, SOME WOMEN) OR EXILE (MOST WOMEN AND CHILDREN, ORPHANS )

11,000

etc.

Thanks for posting the Estonian source (which, I'm sure, greatly exaggregate the figures) showing that there was no "genocide" at all.

If our population was like that and for SOME reason it fell to 700 000 then what is it?

In 2 years. 1940-1941, already about 130K of the Estonian population was gone. For 1,1mil that's a VERY big %! Only in 2 years! About 11% gone!

P.S Try reading the whole webpage. Maybe you will get a clearer image then.

Hors
04-17-2009, 02:53 PM
I truly hope that Hors is actually a fine lad who will stop being hostile towards many European ethnicities.I'll stop being inquisitive about some European ethnicities when their representatives stop making derogatory/hostile remarks about Russia and Russians. But as they will not (they believe it's their birth right and only natural), the things will remain as they are.


If our population was like that and for SOME reason it fell to 700 000 then what is it?


Who cares? I don't. Maybe they died out because of pox...

Äike
04-17-2009, 03:20 PM
I'll stop being inquisitive about some European ethnicities when their representatives stop making derogatory/hostile remarks about Russia and Russians. But as they will not (they believe it's their birth right and only natural), the things will remain as they are.



Who cares? I don't. Maybe they died out because of pox...

It wasn't pox. http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/estlosses.htm

People were replaced with Russians. The population count is almost the same as before WW2. Only that the Estonian population has decreased dramatically. Because of the USSR.

You just ignore the sources I give you and the facts. Do you even read my text? I bet not.

I might just ignore your trollish and historically very false posts. Any sane person wouldn't believe you, so why should I bother replying to your posts?

Hors
04-17-2009, 03:22 PM
It wasn't pox. http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/estlosses.htm

It wasn't genocide either, as your source shows.

Äike
04-17-2009, 03:31 PM
It wasn't genocide either, as your source shows.


Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

The things that USSR did, they don't fit just 1 factor of genocide. There are more then 1!

Now every utterly trollish post of you that denies the happening of genocide. When I have given undeniable data. If that kind of post does come from you. Then I will think that you are mentally retarded and can't read. I even made the most important parts of the text, bold for you. So reading text would be easier for you.

Undeniable date given, if you still don't get it. Then you're not normal from the head. Sorry, but someone has to give you the bad news.