Kursenieki German GEDmatch kit

[Peterski]

This is a German 100% from pre-war Nidden (Nida, Lithuania), which is within the former Kursenieki area:

(courtesy of Rothaer)

https://i.imgur.com/FhfM58q.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nida,_Lithuania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki_language

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Curonians_kursenieki_in_1649.png

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Baltic 37.63
2 Eastern_Euro 21.72
3 North_Sea 21.4
4 Atlantic 14.99
5 West_Med 3.88
6 Amerindian 0.21
7 South_Asian 0.13
8 Sub-Saharan 0.05


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Lithuanian 2.67
2 Belorussian 6.36
3 Estonian_Polish 7.05
4 Estonian 8.54
5 Southwest_Russian 8.87
6 Russian_Smolensk 8.99
7 Polish 9.66
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.66
9 Ukrainian 10.97
10 South_Polish 11.38
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 11.81
12 Kargopol_Russian 13.2
13 Erzya 13.84
14 East_Finnish 16.35
15 Finnish 16.81
16 Croatian 17.52
17 Southwest_Finnish 18.19
18 La_Brana-1 18.64
19 Moldavian 19.61
20 Hungarian 19.84


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 100% Lithuanian + 0% Abhkasian @ 2.67
2 100% Lithuanian + 0% Adygei @ 2.67
3 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 2.67
4 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.67
5 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.67
6 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 2.67
7 100% Lithuanian + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 2.67
8 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian @ 2.67
9 100% Lithuanian + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.67
10 100% Lithuanian + 0% Altaian @ 2.67
11 100% Lithuanian + 0% Anzick-1 @ 2.67
12 100% Lithuanian + 0% Armenian @ 2.67
13 100% Lithuanian + 0% Ashkenazi @ 2.67
14 100% Lithuanian + 0% Assyrian @ 2.67
15 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austrian @ 2.67
16 100% Lithuanian + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 2.67
17 100% Lithuanian + 0% Azeri @ 2.67
18 100% Lithuanian + 0% Balkar @ 2.67
19 100% Lithuanian + 0% Balochi @ 2.67
20 100% Lithuanian + 0% Bangladeshi @ 2.67

[Jana]

He is similar to other fully Memelland German we have in collection, but even more extreme Balto-Slavic (even more NE I mean).

This guy is interestingly I2 haplogroup, some western branch.

[Peterski]

The other Memellander is kit number H637442.

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Baltic 34.07
2 Eastern_Euro 22.17
3 North_Sea 20.58
4 Atlantic 17.15
5 West_Med 5.16
6 South_Asian 0.8
7 Amerindian 0.07


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Lithuanian 3.83
2 Belorussian 3.93
3 Estonian_Polish 3.94
4 Russian_Smolensk 6.25
5 Polish 6.55
6 Southwest_Russian 6.79
7 Estonian 7.33
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.77
9 Ukrainian 8.74
10 South_Polish 8.76
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.9
12 Kargopol_Russian 11.02
13 Erzya 12.61
14 East_Finnish 14.16
15 Finnish 14.8
16 Croatian 14.84
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.64
18 La_Brana-1 16.96
19 Moldavian 17.33
20 Hungarian 17.39


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.4% Lithuanian + 48.6% Estonian_Polish @ 2.73
2 94.2% Lithuanian + 5.8% French_Basque @ 2.76
3 93% Lithuanian + 7% Southwest_French @ 2.79
4 69.6% Lithuanian + 30.4% Polish @ 2.83
5 93.4% Lithuanian + 6.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.83
6 93.9% Lithuanian + 6.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.92
7 94% Lithuanian + 6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.98
8 95.8% Lithuanian + 4.2% Sardinian @ 2.99
9 93.9% Lithuanian + 6.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3
10 93.5% Lithuanian + 6.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3
11 93.5% Lithuanian + 6.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.02
12 93.8% Lithuanian + 6.2% Portuguese @ 3.03
13 94% Lithuanian + 6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.05
14 94.2% Lithuanian + 5.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.05
15 94.1% Lithuanian + 5.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.06
16 93.9% Lithuanian + 6.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.06
17 89% Lithuanian + 11% East_German @ 3.09
18 93.1% Lithuanian + 6.9% French @ 3.11
19 93% Lithuanian + 7% Southwest_English @ 3.11
20 92.5% Lithuanian + 7.5% South_Dutch @ 3.12

[J. Ketch]

I know how Rothaer feels about it but it's kind of ridiculous isn't it?

[Peterski]

I know how Rothaer feels about it but it's kind of ridiculous isn't it?

You mean calling them "real Germans" is kind of ridiculous?

Well, much of East Prussia was Germanized late (in the 1800s onwards) and through a language shift - without much genetic admixture.

But this guy has an etymologically German surname BTW.

[Peterski]

but even more extreme Balto-Slavic (even more NE I mean)

As I said before, in East Prussia there were people ranging from ~100% Germanic (Mennonites) to ~100% Balto-Slavic (guys like this one).

[Marshall Theodore]

Its strange to see a gedmatch result almost "100% euro" like this one.

[Jana]

As I said before, in East Prussia there were people ranging from ~100% Germanic (Mennonites) to ~100% Balto-Slavic (guys like this one).

I know, I helped Rothaer in making German regional averages.
East Prussia is genetically diverse. So far we identified 3 sub clusters within it (for full ethnic Germans)

Lithuanian like Memellanders
Polish like Masurians
Central East Prussia which is mix of highly Germanic German settlers with Baltic Old Prussians

[Jana]

We don't have any Mennonite like samples from east Prussia though.

[Peterski]

We don't have any Mennonite like samples from east Prussia though.

All Mennonites ultimately come from East Prussia or West Prussia.

And it is easy to find Mennonites on GEDmatch because they all match each other.

Here is one example of a Mennonite kit with GEDCOM - M183906

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.61
2 Baltic 24.9
3 West_Med 11.22
4 West_Asian 6.64
5 East_Med 4.85
6 South_Asian 2.17
7 Northeast_African 0.42
8 Sub-Saharan 0.2


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Danish 2.28
2 North_Dutch 2.9
3 North_German 3.44
4 Orcadian 3.72
5 Southeast_English 3.84
6 Irish 4.32
7 West_Scottish 4.84
8 Norwegian 5.13
9 Southwest_English 5.57
10 Swedish 6.99
11 South_Dutch 7.08
12 West_German 7.72
13 Austrian 12.51
14 North_Swedish 12.91
15 East_German 12.93
16 French 12.98
17 Hungarian 16.95
18 Spanish_Cataluna 20.4
19 Southwest_Finnish 20.79
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 21.66


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Danish + 6.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.44
2 95.3% Danish + 4.7% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.46
3 93.8% Danish + 6.2% North_Italian @ 1.46
4 94.7% Danish + 5.3% Tuscan @ 1.46
5 96.1% Danish + 3.9% South_Italian @ 1.47
6 92.1% Danish + 7.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.48
7 95.6% Danish + 4.4% West_Sicilian @ 1.49
8 88.2% Danish + 11.8% French @ 1.49
9 96.5% Danish + 3.5% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.5
10 93.1% Danish + 6.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.5
11 93.1% Danish + 6.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 1.51
12 93.3% Danish + 6.7% Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.51
13 96.5% Danish + 3.5% Italian_Jewish @ 1.52
14 93.2% Danish + 6.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.53
15 97.3% Danish + 2.7% Armenian @ 1.55
16 92.9% Danish + 7.1% Portuguese @ 1.56
17 96.7% Danish + 3.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.56
18 97.1% Danish + 2.9% Cyprian @ 1.56
19 96.8% Danish + 3.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.57
20 82% Danish + 18% West_German @ 1.57

[Peterski]

This guy is interestingly I2 haplogroup, some western branch.

Which subclade? And how did you check this, using which predictor?

[J. Ketch]

You mean calling them "real Germans" is kind of ridiculous?

Well, much of East Prussia was Germanized late (in the 1800s onwards) and through a language shift - without much genetic admixture.

But this guy has an etymologically German surname BTW.
So these Balts have been 'German' for just 200 years?

[Jana]

Which subclade? And how did you check this, using which predictor?

Rothaer checked with Morley and yseq. Both showed pretty specific subclade with NW Euro distribution, in British Isles and nearby iirc.

[Jana]

All Mennonites ultimately come from East Prussia or West Prussia.

And it is easy to find Mennonites on GEDmatch because they all match each other.

Here is one example of a Mennonite kit with GEDCOM - M183906

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.61
2 Baltic 24.9
3 West_Med 11.22
4 West_Asian 6.64
5 East_Med 4.85
6 South_Asian 2.17
7 Northeast_African 0.42
8 Sub-Saharan 0.2


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Danish 2.28
2 North_Dutch 2.9
3 North_German 3.44
4 Orcadian 3.72
5 Southeast_English 3.84
6 Irish 4.32
7 West_Scottish 4.84
8 Norwegian 5.13
9 Southwest_English 5.57
10 Swedish 6.99
11 South_Dutch 7.08
12 West_German 7.72
13 Austrian 12.51
14 North_Swedish 12.91
15 East_German 12.93
16 French 12.98
17 Hungarian 16.95
18 Spanish_Cataluna 20.4
19 Southwest_Finnish 20.79
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 21.66


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Danish + 6.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.44
2 95.3% Danish + 4.7% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.46
3 93.8% Danish + 6.2% North_Italian @ 1.46
4 94.7% Danish + 5.3% Tuscan @ 1.46
5 96.1% Danish + 3.9% South_Italian @ 1.47
6 92.1% Danish + 7.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.48
7 95.6% Danish + 4.4% West_Sicilian @ 1.49
8 88.2% Danish + 11.8% French @ 1.49
9 96.5% Danish + 3.5% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.5
10 93.1% Danish + 6.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.5
11 93.1% Danish + 6.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 1.51
12 93.3% Danish + 6.7% Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.51
13 96.5% Danish + 3.5% Italian_Jewish @ 1.52
14 93.2% Danish + 6.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.53
15 97.3% Danish + 2.7% Armenian @ 1.55
16 92.9% Danish + 7.1% Portuguese @ 1.56
17 96.7% Danish + 3.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.56
18 97.1% Danish + 2.9% Cyprian @ 1.56
19 96.8% Danish + 3.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.57
20 82% Danish + 18% West_German @ 1.57

These Menonnites are from Russia/Ukraine tho, they are not directly from east Prussia.

[Peterski]

So these Balts have been 'German' for just 200 years?

Yes, or even fewer than 200.

Check the ethnic composition of East Prussia in 1824 (on Wikipedia).

[Peterski]

These Menonnites are from Russia/Ukraine tho, they are not directly from east Prussia.

Check the GEDCOM - it says Prussia in further generations.

[Jana]

This is his Y-DNA subclade:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS6433/

It's under I-M223

[rothaer]

Which subclade? And how did you check this, using which predictor?

As Feiichy stated, it was determined by the Morley and the YSEQ predictor using the AncestryDNA raw data. Both predictors gave the same result.

The subclade somewhat unexpectedly is I(2)-CTS6433.

It seems continental Germanic with just a few deeper subclades in Scandinavia and zero occurances (at YFull) in the Baltic states.

[rothaer]

I know how Rothaer feels about it but it's kind of ridiculous isn't it?

If you refer to considering this individual German (as Piotraschke assumed you to do), then this is also the view of Hitler, of Stalin, of the Lithuanian common people, of the German common people, of the Polish common people and by this guy himself and his kind. So that are not just rothaer's kind of ridicolus feelings.

I hope to soon get to know more about his ancestry in particular as I will help him to get started and get the information in a pedigree. In a detailed ethnicity map per abt. 1900 the area of Nidden - it's on the Curonian Spit - is depicted 50-75% German and this village directly borders an area that is depicted 75-100% German.

It may be added that his ancestry farther back, whatever it may be, will be no (recent) migrants, but indigenous to Germany (in the sense of the German people evolving area) folks.

EDIT: Funfact: Immanuel Kant patrilinearly a couple of generations back descended from a local Curonian fisherman.

[rothaer]

The genetics are extreme:

https://i.imgur.com/aJSWAic.jpg

[rothaer]

Here's an ethnicity and language map per 1900. I've marked with an red arrow where is Nidden on the Curonian Spit. Btw. Nidden was a famous German holiday location for artists and authors (prior to 1945).

The blue line indicates what is considered the once maximum extent of the Lithuanian languge. Curonian (more correct: New Curonian) that is relevant on the Curonian Spit is a Latvian dialect. Curonian speaking fishermen expanded along the coast at some time after 1500 AD and it resulted in the odd distribution of the Curonian language as it is shown on the map in the OP. The state shown there refers to 1650 AD.

https://i.imgur.com/J6Df4ZM.jpg

[rothaer]

All Mennonites ultimately come from East Prussia or West Prussia.
(...)

"The "Russian Mennonites" (German: "Russlandmennoniten")[46] today are descended from Dutch Anabaptists, who came from the Netherlands and started around 1530 to settle around Danzig and in West Prussia, where they lived for about 250 years. During that time they mixed with German Mennonites from different regions. Starting in 1791 they established colonies in the south-west of the Russian Empire and beginning in 1854 also in Volga region and Orenburg Governorate. Their ethno-language is Plautdietsch, a Germanic dialect of the East Low German group, with some Dutch admixture. Today, many traditional Russian Mennonites use Standard German in church and for reading and writing." (Wikipedia article on Mennonites)

[Jana]

"The "Russian Mennonites" (German: "Russlandmennoniten")[46] today are descended from Dutch Anabaptists, who came from the Netherlands and started around 1530 to settle around Danzig and in West Prussia, where they lived for about 250 years. During that time they mixed with German Mennonites from different regions. Starting in 1791 they established colonies in the south-west of the Russian Empire and beginning in 1854 also in Volga region and Orenburg Governorate. Their ethno-language is Plautdietsch, a Germanic dialect of the East Low German group, with some Dutch admixture. Today, many traditional Russian Mennonites use Standard German in church and for reading and writing." (Wikipedia article on Mennonites)

so they are far from being representatives of genuine East Prussians.

[Peterski]

(Wikipedia article on Mennonites)
so they are far from being representatives of genuine East Prussians.

I know they ultimately came from somewhere else, but you can say the same about Masurians and Prussian Lithuanians.

My point was that all modern Mennonites came from Prussia where they had lived for few centuries before coming to Russia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?251561-Mennonites-in-Poland

[Jana]

I know they ultimately came from somewhere else, but you can say the same about Masurians and Prussian Lithuanians.

My point was that all modern Mennonites came from Prussia where they had lived for few centuries before coming to Russia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?251561-Mennonites-in-Poland

Masuria was part of East Prussia. Prussian Lithuanians are not topic of this genetic discussion though, right?

[Peterski]

Masuria was part of East Prussia.

But Masurians came to Masuria from Poland, mainly from Masovia (hence the name).

=====

Mennonites settled mainly in this area*, which was part of East Prussia after 1918:

*malborskie

https://i.imgur.com/AuCR2nZ.png

[Peterski]

Prussian Lithuanians are not topic of this genetic discussion though, right?

Memellanders = part of Prussian Lithuanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da_Revolt

[Jana]

Memellanders = part of Prussian Lithuanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da_Revolt

OP is a German, not Lithuanian and his ancestors surely didn't participate in Lithuanian revolt in 1920s lol. If you want to discuss deep origin of people like him, I don't see how they are only Lithuanian since Curonian is rather dialect of Latvian, there is possible old Prussian admix as well as small but existant old German, considering his haplogroup.

[Peterski]

Yes his ancestors were Curonian, even as late as 1900 according to the map which Rothaer posted (Nidden is marked as Curonian-speaking).

But Curonians were relatively few in numbers, Prussian Lithuanians were 10 times more numerous:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia#Demographics

"In year 1824, shortly before its merger with West Prussia, the population of East Prussia was 1,080,000 people.[36] Of that number, according to Karl Andree, ethnic Germans were slightly more than half, while 280,000 (≈26%) were ethnically Polish and 200,000 (≈19%) were ethnically Lithuanian.[37] As of year 1819, there were also 20,000 strong ethnic Curonian and Latvian minorities as well as 2,400 Jews, according to Georg Hassel.[38] Similar numbers are given by August von Haxthausen in his 1839 book, with a breakdown by county.[39] However, the majority of East Prussian Polish and Lithuanian inhabitants were Lutherans, not Roman Catholics like their ethnic kinsmen across the border in the Russian Empire. Only in Southern Warmia (German: Ermland) Catholic Poles - so called Warmiaks (not to be confused with predominantly Protestant Masurians) - comprised the majority of population, numbering 26,067 people (≈81%) in county Allenstein (Polish: Olsztyn) in 1837.[39] Another minority in 19th century East Prussia, were ethnically Russian Old Believers, also known as Philipponnen - their main town was Eckersdorf (Wojnowo).[40][41][42]

In year 1817, East Prussia had 796,204 Evangelical Christians, 120,123 Roman Catholics, 864 Mennonites and 2,389 Jews.[43]"

[rothaer]

Yes his ancestors were Curonian, even as late as 1900 according to the map which Rothaer posted (Nidden is marked as Curonian-speaking).

But Curonians were relatively few in numbers, Prussian Lithuanians were 10 times more numerous:

I'm astounded how you can simply make such statements about things that you don't know. You are - this is not the first time - uninhibitedly mixing facts with speculations. I told you that I'll get to know his closer ancestry and that he and his closer family identified as Germans.

Nidden is not marked as Curonian speaking on the map, but exactly as I said 50-75% German speaking and the remaining part Curonian speaking. It has the (reduced) ground colour for Curonian and the hatchicng for 50-75% German. And it's borderung the area that is marked 75-100% German speaking.

https://i.imgur.com/02Sx5Br.jpg

[Peterski]

It has the (reduced) ground colour for Curonian and the hatching for 50-75% German.

I didn't notice the hatching.