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Monolith
11-25-2011, 11:26 AM
Some recent history:


Mr. Boljkovac (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35843) is the first major official from Tito’s regime to be tried for human rights abuses after the violent breakup of Yugoslavia. In 1945, Tito’s victorious Partisan army erected a totalitarian police state. The half-Croatian, half-Slovene dictator was an ideological Marxist, who sought to wipe out his opponents, such as nationalist Serbs, Slovenes and Albanians.

Yet, his greatest victims were Croatians. Tito’s goal was to smash all opposition in order to consolidate his iron grip on power. This meant subjugating Croatia - the most Western, Catholic and anti-communist of the Yugoslav republics. More than 200,000 Croatians were slaughtered. Basic freedoms were abrogated. Croatia’s Catholic Church - the cradle of Croatian nationalism - was heavily persecuted. Much of its wealth was confiscated, its priests and nuns were killed and numerous parishes were shut down. Croatia’s economy was pillaged by the Titoist ruling class. The Partisans understood that Yugoslavia could be preserved only by extinguishing - and demonizing - all vestiges of Croatia’s distinct national identity.

Hence, for decades, Belgrade waged a relentless propaganda campaign, seeking to portray Croatian patriotism - and the long-suppressed popular desire for independence - as crypto-fascism. In World War II, Croatia had a Nazi regime led by the odious Ante Pavelic and his sadistic Ustashe. From 1941 to 1945, Pavelic’s henchmen sought to create an ethnically pure Greater Croatia that incorporated Bosnia-Herzegovina and parts of Serbia. The Ustashe systematically killed hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies (Roma) and anti-fascist Croatians, many of them at the notorious Jasenovac concentration camp. The Ustashe are a stain upon the Croatian nation. Its symbols and party are now banned.

However, during the Balkan wars of the 1990s, Serbian revanchists falsely and maliciously claimed Croatia’s sovereign state was the heir of the Ustashe: Croatian nationalism was equated with the revival of fascism. This was the smoke screen used to justify Belgrade’s war of aggression. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. Pavelic was not a patriot or nationalist; rather, he was a Nazi quisling and radical Croatian imperialist. His evil regime was imposed through German, Italian and Hungarian occupation armies. At its height, the Ustashe possessed a mere 16,000 members.

By contrast, modern Croatian mass nationalism has very different roots. Its primary exponent was the Croatian Peasant Party. Led by the agrarian populist, Stjepan Radic, it championed home rule, constitutional government and parliamentary democracy. Radic opposed the 1918 creation of royalist Yugoslavia, rightly arguing that it was an authoritarian, synthetic state destined to fail. His party consistently won more than 80 percent of the Croatian vote during elections in the 1920s.

Radic appealed to the historic Croatia - its unique language and Slavic culture; its Central European and Catholic heritage; its long defense of Christendom against invading Ottoman Turks; its red-and-white checkerboard flag that dates back to 1527, when Croatia sealed its union with the Hapsburg monarchy; its centuries-old tradition of parliamentary self-rule; and its adherence to God, faith and family. His soaring popularity was why he was killed in 1928 by a pro-royalist Montenegrin deputy. Still, Radic’s patriotic populism remained a potent force. Pavelic never embodied Croatia’s movement for national self-determination. Radic did - and both Pavelic and Tito despised him for it.

Moreover, almost every people in Europe at that time had vile, collaborationist regimes. For example, Serbia had a genocidal pro-Nazi government under Gen. Milan Nedic. His quisling state was the first to proclaim its territory “free of Jews,” having launched a massive extermination campaign. Contrary to myth, Serbian royalists - known as Chetniks - did not bravely wage guerrilla war against the German Wehrmacht. Rather, they were racist, right-wing extremists who, supported by Mussolini’s Italy, fought to carve out a homogenous Great Serb empire through a campaign of ethnic cleansing. They butchered tens of thousands of Croatian and Bosnian Muslim civilians. In fact, Belgrade’s recent attempt to forge a Greater Serbia relied on Chetnik ideology and symbolism.

Hence, the claim that Croatians are innately fascistic is not only false, but deep-seated bigotry. The real problem has been the nation’s communist past.

The dissolution of Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a victory for democracy and national self-determination. Yet, communism has had a crippling legacy on the region. For more than 40 years, it sought to destroy Croatia’s historical identity, international image and very existence. It has even tainted the country’s founding. The now-deceased President Franjo Tudjman, who led Croatia’s secession from Yugoslavia, was a Partisan general who loyally served Tito for decades. His ruling HDZ remains dominated by former apparatchiks.

Mr. Boljkovac may now be in the dock for crimes he is said to have committed in 1946. But that didn’t stop him from becoming a senior HDZ official. His shady past was known to HDZ bosses then. The charges are nothing more than a cheap publicity stunt in a pathetic attempt to save the HDZ from its coming defeat in the Dec. 4 elections. It will not work.

The rampant cronyism, the pervasive corruption, the subservience to foreign powers like Brussels, the political culture of mendacity and bribery, widespread social amorality and the embrace of state-driven corporatism - all have marked the HDZ’s rule and threaten to bankrupt Croatia. They are the remnants of the communist system. Tito’s ghost lives on. Until it is exorcised, Croatia will remain haunted - and doomed.

Jeffrey T. Kuhner is a columnist at The Washington Times and president of the Edmund Burke Institute.
source (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/24/myth-of-croatian-fascism/)

Mordid
11-25-2011, 11:27 AM
*yawn* Boring.

Monolith
11-25-2011, 12:06 PM
*yawn* Boring.
Well, nobody forced you to read it. :ohwell:

Duckelf
11-25-2011, 12:22 PM
The article seems to anti-Chetnik to me. Rather a Chetnik than a Red Partisan.

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 12:27 PM
Monolith, you keep obsessing about giving Socialist Yugoslavia a bad image. That is quite boring but here goes...

1. Yugoslavia did not and never viewed Croats as enemy of the state; only the Croats who wanted the breakup of Yugoslavia because such breakup would have forced Yugoslavia to either align with the Allies or the Soviets (as we are seeing this today with ex-yu states joining the NATO). Only together we were able to maintain complete and absolute independence. That was quite a step-up from centuries of Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman dominance.

2. Yugoslavia did not try to destroy Croatian identity, merely encourage people to identify with Yugoslavia in addition with their national identity. If Tito wanted the destruction of Croatia then he would've made Dalmatia and Istria autonomous provinces of Croatia like Kosovo and Vojvodina were made autonomous within Serbia...

3. Yugoslavia was the best thing ever happened to Croats who didn't join with NDH cronies since it meant they had true security from foreign powers who would do Croats harm. There were probably some criminal actions committed against Croats to suppress any possible rebellion from Croats and those who continued to sympathise with NDH. If they had fell into line with Tito then nothing would have happened to them.

Panopticon
11-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Good article.

I always find it ironic when Serbs accuse Croatians of a fascist past, and I chuckle when I read 'Ushtasha' and 'Franjo Tudjman' being used interdependently. Shows how little some people know.

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 12:36 PM
Good article.

I always find it ironic when Serbs accuse Croatians of a fascist past, and I chuckle when I read 'Ushtasha' and 'Franjo Tudjman' being used interdependently. Shows how little some people know.

Well, I think most ex-yus link fascism with nationalism because monarchist Yugoslavia was betrayed by Croats who joined the invading Nazis en masse.

Wanderlust
11-25-2011, 12:37 PM
Monolith, you keep obsessing about giving Socialist Yugoslavia a bad image. That is quite boring but here goes...



Keep? What do you know about him? Or Joe McCarthy? ;)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37096&page=3

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 12:40 PM
Keep? What do you know about him? Or Joe McCarthy? ;)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37096&page=3

I have no need to hide.

Panopticon
11-25-2011, 12:41 PM
Well, I think most ex-yus link fascism with nationalism because monarchist Yugoslavia was betrayed by Croats who joined the invading Nazis en masse.

It's true that the Croatians have a fascist past because of the Ushtasha and everything. The reason I find it ironic that Serbs point fingers is that they had fascists as well, and while Croatians don't celebrate that dark chapter in their history, the Serbs still do.

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 12:44 PM
It's true that the Croatians have a fascist past because of the Ushtasha and everything. The reason I find it ironic that Serbs point fingers is that they had fascists as well, and while Croatians don't celebrate that dark chapter in their history, the Serbs still do.

There are Croats who still look up to Pavelic but they are few and largely irrelevant. I'm not sure how this kind of discussion has any value since we need to put aside the past that is already long gone and buried and start looking to the future.

Absinthe
11-25-2011, 01:21 PM
There are Croats who still look up to Pavelic but they are few and largely irrelevant. I'm not sure how this kind of discussion has any value since we need to put aside the past that is already long gone and buried and start looking to the future.
Hello, Dusan :) Oh, and hello, valter (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=3836)! :p :D

HungAryan
11-25-2011, 01:31 PM
Good article.
Yugoslavia was a Frankenstein state.
They killed 200,000 Croats and 40,000 Hungarians. Those fuckers (the Serbs) need to pay for what they've done.
Let's see how would they like if we just killed 240,000 Serbs, and oppressed them, like the way Serbs oppressed every other nation in Yugoslavia.

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 01:41 PM
Good article.
Yugoslavia was a Frankenstein state.
They killed 200,000 Croats and 40,000 Hungarians. Those fuckers (the Serbs) need to pay for what they've done.
Let's see how would they like if we just killed 240,000 Serbs, and oppressed them, like the way Serbs oppressed every other nation in Yugoslavia.

This coming from you, seriously? From someone whose country aligned with Germany, the country that started the deadliest war in history? I think you need to do some light reading on Jasenovac camp and become bit more informed. Nothing would have happened to Hungarians and Croats if they didn't choose to join Germany and took a stand against Hitler. The 75 million Europeans who died from Hitler's war would probably be still alive today...

HungAryan
11-25-2011, 01:50 PM
This coming from you, seriously? From someone whose country aligned with Germany, the country that started the deadliest war in history? I think you need to do some light reading on Jasenovac camp and become bit more informed. Nothing would have happened to Hungarians and Croats if they didn't choose to join Germany and took a stand against Hitler. The 75 million Europeans who died from Hitler's war would probably be still alive today...

LOL.
You you believe in the LOLcaust.
Okay, discussion finished.
Anyone who speaks ill of Hitler is an enemy of mine. Thus, Hitler was a genius, and the Hero of the 20th century.

HungAryan
11-25-2011, 01:52 PM
I can't believe that we have a communist on this forum...

Dilberth
11-25-2011, 03:07 PM
2. Yugoslavia did not try to destroy Croatian identity, merely encourage people to identify with Yugoslavia in addition with their national identity. If Tito wanted the destruction of Croatia then he would've made Dalmatia and Istria autonomous provinces of Croatia like Kosovo and Vojvodina were made autonomous within Serbia...


How the hell would he made Dalmatia autonomous?Dalmatia was the centre of Croatian medieval state,all dukes and kings of Croatia ruled form Dalmatia:Nin,Knin,Šibenik were Croatian capitals.And it allways had vast Croatian majority.You're telling me that center of our state would be autonomous province :confused:

safinator
11-25-2011, 03:15 PM
LOL.
You you believe in the LOLcaust.
Okay, discussion finished.
Anyone who speaks ill of Hitler is an enemy of mine. Thus, Hitler was a genius, and the Hero of the 20th century.

:lol00002::lol00002::lol00002:

Monolith
11-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Monolith, you keep obsessing about giving Socialist Yugoslavia a bad image. That is quite boring but here goes...
To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly overjoyed to write about this subject, since I prefer discussing Croatian medieval history. Much to my dismay, many posters here are utterly ignorant about ex-Yugoslavia as a state, about its ideology, history, etc., and write things that either lack foundation in reality or are outright insulting.

So, what am I (an informed observer) supposed to do when people, rather naively, say stuff like "Yugoslavia was a powerful country", "the standard of living was high", "it saved Croats and Slovenes from foreign yoke"?

As regards this thread, my main motive was to show:


the source of modern Croatian nationalism
the political and cultural legacy of the communist system in modern Croatia



1. Yugoslavia did not and never viewed Croats as enemy of the state; only the Croats who wanted the breakup of Yugoslavia
Indeed, not all Croats were viewed as enemies of the state, since great many of them were yes-men who actually believed in the official ideology of the ruling elite. However, since there existed a vibrant tradition of national struggle for self-determination in the collective memory of Croatian folk, that made them the most likely candidates to challenge the system. The ruling elite knew that very well. Despite the omnipresent indoctrination by the system and powerful secret police, the elite feared this scenario so they took all possible measures to prevent it. For example, during the Croatian Spring, Croatian conscripts in the JNA, who were stationed mainly in other republics of Yugoslavia, were denied newspapers and radio.

because such breakup would have forced Yugoslavia to either align with the Allies or the Soviets (as we are seeing this today with ex-yu states joining the NATO).
I believe Yugoslavia would have joined the European Community eventually, but it is rather pointless to discuss about alternative timelines.


Only together we were able to maintain complete and absolute independence. That was quite a step-up from centuries of Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman dominance.
Having in mind the historical Croatian tendency towards self-determination and home rule, Yugoslavia was yet another foreign power.


2. Yugoslavia did not try to destroy Croatian identity, merely encourage people to identify with Yugoslavia in addition with their national identity.
Yes. That opened the way for synthetic Yugoslav national identity to supplant the organic Croatian national identity, effectively reducing the latter to a regional designation.


3. Yugoslavia was the best thing ever happened to Croats who didn't join with NDH cronies since it meant they had true security from foreign powers who would do Croats harm.
Which powers? Italy was defeated and Austria-Hungary was long gone.


There were probably some criminal actions committed against Croats to suppress any possible rebellion from Croats and those who continued to sympathise with NDH. If they had fell into line with Tito then nothing would have happened to them.
If you can't beat them, join them? I don't think so. Also, I find your justification of crimes committed by a totalitarian regime and breaking of Geneva conventions quite unsettling.

Monolith
11-25-2011, 03:34 PM
The article seems to anti-Chetnik to me. Rather a Chetnik than a Red Partisan.
That's a false dilemma.

Why so serious?
11-25-2011, 03:57 PM
How the hell would he made Dalmatia autonomous?Dalmatia was the centre of Croatian medieval state,all dukes and kings of Croatia ruled form Dalmatia:Nin,Knin,Šibenik were Croatian capitals.And it allways had vast Croatian majority.You're telling me that center of our state would be autonomous province :confused:

Kosovo is the religious and cultural heart of Serbia but yet it was made autonomous. It was a move to weaken Serbian influence in Yugoslavia, not because Kosovo was some country with an identity of its own.


To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly overjoyed to write about this subject, since I prefer discussing Croatian medieval history. Much to my dismay, many posters here are utterly ignorant about ex-Yugoslavia as a state, about its ideology, history, etc., and write things that either lack foundation in reality or are outright insulting.

I understand.


So, what am I (an informed observer) supposed to do when people, rather naively, say stuff like "Yugoslavia was a powerful country", "the standard of living was high", "it saved Croats and Slovenes from foreign yoke"?

I don't think it's reasonable to deny the fact that Yugoslavia was militarily powerful. It managed to stay out of the Cold War completely and became extremely influential with the founding of the non-Aligned Movement. Can any other country in the Balkans or even Eastern Europe say the same?


As regards this thread, my main motive was to show:


the source of modern Croatian nationalism
the political and cultural legacy of the communist system in modern Croatia


That's fine but I feel your good intentions may be warped by excessive desire to find acceptance for Croatian justifications to break from Yugoslavia.


Indeed, not all Croats were viewed as enemies of the state, since great many of them were yes-men who actually believed in the official ideology of the ruling elite. However, since there existed a vibrant tradition of national struggle for self-determination in the collective memory of Croatian folk, that made them the most likely candidates to challenge the system. The ruling elite knew that very well. Despite the omnipresent indoctrination by the system and powerful secret police, the elite feared this scenario so they took all possible measures to prevent it. For example, during the Croatian Spring, Croatian conscripts in the JNA, who were stationed mainly in other republics of Yugoslavia, were denied newspapers and radio.

I am alright with Croatia being an independent country just as Čento wanted Macedonia to be independent from Yugoslavia but the reality at the time, it just wasn't possible for either Croatia or Macedonia to remain independent AND stay out of the Cold War. We would've been either forced to join the Allies or the Soviets and we were dangerously close to becoming part of the Eastern Bloc but Tito's brilliance helped us stay out of it.


I believe Yugoslavia would have joined the European Community eventually, but it is rather pointless to discuss about alternative timelines.

Yugoslavia was promised EEC membership if the country remained stable into the 90s. We would've joined the EEC before Poland and many others and eventually making us one of important founding members of the EU and part of the Eurozone.


Having in mind the historical Croatian tendency towards self-determination and home rule, Yugoslavia was yet another foreign power.

I don't necessarily believe in Communist Yugoslavia but rather a democratic Yugoslavia similar to what we had during Monarchist Yugoslavia except without a king. I fully support Croatian national determination but I don't just want to break up just because of some wrong ideas Croats have.


Yes. That opened the way for synthetic Yugoslav national identity to supplant the organic Croatian national identity, effectively reducing the latter to a regional designation.

No, no and no. First of all, Yugoslav/Yugoslavia is the name contemporary founders of Yugoslavia used to label the common bond between all South Slavs. This common bond existed long before 1918. The founding of Yugoslavia may be artificial but the foundations weren't.


Which powers? Italy was defeated and Austria-Hungary was long gone.

Yugoslavia meant we could pursue economic development of the federation of South Slavs without getting involved with entangling military alliances like the NATO or the former Warsaw Pact. Yugoslavia meant peace and regional stability, something that is missing in the Balkans since the fall of the Ottoman Empire.


If you can't beat them, join them? I don't think so. Also, I find your justification of crimes committed by a totalitarian regime and breaking of Geneva conventions quite unsettling.

Well, compared to Nazi war crimes? I wish what happened to those Croats never happened but it happened.

Heretik
11-30-2011, 10:30 AM
I zato se, dragi moj Monolithe, ovdje teme, očito, ne trebaju otvarati na engleskom jer privlače idiote. Inače, ovaj Kuhner u moru (pa i vlastite) desničarske demagogije svaki put dotakne neke povijesne istine ili neke činjenice koje se lako prešute/zaborave. Uvijek volim pročitati njegov članke kad naletim na njih.

Monolith
11-30-2011, 02:54 PM
I zato se, dragi moj Monolithe, ovdje teme, očito, ne trebaju otvarati na engleskom jer privlače idiote. Inače, ovaj Kuhner u moru (pa i vlastite) desničarske demagogije svaki put dotakne neke povijesne istine ili neke činjenice koje se lako prešute/zaborave. Uvijek volim pročitati njegov članke kad naletim na njih.
Očito.