'American English' based on the pronounciation of Ireland ?

[Cold Fire]

https://png.pngtree.com/png-clipart/20210915/ourlarge/pngtree-cowboy-speech-bubble-pop-art-png-image_3906572.jpg

https://media.istockphoto.com/id/641621870/fr/vectoriel/farfadet-avec-signe.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=bzKh_8wVmhVKcAbGzyQNLeMbG-l01kmnOxdcXdBpah0=

- - -

Something that has been on my mind for quite some time..

What are the roots of so-called American English ?


Why are 'British English' and American English different, at least in sound..?


Well..

Two things seperate American and British English ( in the long run )..

That Americans much more emphasisze the 'r' ( for example for 'car park' they would pronounce it like 'carr parrk' ) and 't's' are often made 'd's'.. Like 'sexualiddy' for 'sexuality' . .

Often people realize(d) that American English doesn't really sound like, for example, in England . .


Now, why may that be ?


I'm not American ( I'm German ) and I have heard theories about this ranging from that allegedly "the USA is a conglomerate of many tribes, that's why their language kind of developed traits of its own" to allegedly "American English is the way even the pilgrims in old times spoke , the language in England has changed over the years..."

- - -

Well, well , well...

This fact has been running through my mind quite often..

Well , to be honest , I find the following explanation the most credible..


Listen to people from Ireland talking. Probably the rural population even more than city dwellers.. You might notice the uniqueness in their English which might remind you of the USA . .

. . ?

- - - > I find it the most plausible that American English ( or : the pronounciation ) was influenced by irish..

Think about it..

Irish are the most common group/ heritage among Euro- Americans, second place to Germans..

It's no big secret that from about 1800 on many irish settled in America . .

In fact the whole American 'Wild West' cliches, with hillbillies, drinking whiskey, dancing reel, playing the banjo etc, lol, reminds one of Ireland . .
( the so-called Wild West was more or less America in the 1800s . . )

- - - > from about 1900 or so on more and more Germans moved there , so , yes , in newer times Germans have become the largest ancestor-group among Euro-Americans yet, like I said, next to irish....

.. while the 'Founding Fathers' a la Washington , Jefferson et al must still have spoken British , like I said , from about 1800 on more and more Irish moved there..

The U.S.A. did start out as an English colony...

.. I might add that this seems to be a fitting theory for Canada too . . Actually for all of English-speaking North America. After all, ((America)) is ((America))..

When moving to America , or The Americas people often did not have the U.S. in mind specifically.. Often also Canada . . - - > North America . .


Australia , for example ,also is, in a way , an English colony , it was settled from Britain..

Yet Australia still has kind of a British pronounciation...

- - - -


. . when one considers the fact that, if this theory was true ,it would maybe also be visible by religious denomiation within America , since the Irish are said to be a largely Catholic people , well .. religious denominational balance came and went in America.....

What remains to say is that, since many Europeans at all times sought a better life in America because of eventual powers in Europe , Ireland at one time was almost regarded as some kind of 'poor-house' within Europe... No wonder many people there in old times maybe sought to leave..

And many people are aware of the Great Potato Famine among the Irish especially in the 1800s . .

- - -

What do you think...?

..plausible.. ?


For the record , two random YouTube vids ,one in a way demonstarting British English , the other the pronounciation of Ireland..



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4QBUpuNGjk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmg9CSBiOvY

- - -

. . . . ?


https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/301824942_497970525664213_2318595991993373105_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=09cbfe&_nc_ohc=Vw41pTmWXh4AX8n5P4l&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=00_AfC3QqJtzguzYBax3e0tmwVjA2LcxHcc2FsYQiKtySSQ 4A&oe=641B6320

Your opinions.. ?

[Cold Fire]

. . how I view America as such..

It, from the beginning, was more or less planned as ' the new world ' as opposed to the 'Old Europe ', where people from Europe strought to start 'a different life '.. Often the people in question were victims of religious discrimination in Europe ( each case might have differed from another.. ).. You have to remember that in older times people were not maybe just looked down upon because of having a different faith than the rest of a region , they could actually be POLITICALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST because of their faith..

So.. mass immigration to America began..


It may have started out as an English colony , soon every European naval power at that time sought influence there ( French , still the Spanish , Dutch ...) , in time.. see above..

- - -
Concerning the original claim of this thread.. it would make sense that Irish maybe would in time become the largest immigrant caste to America.. first of all, Ireland had many religious tensions, second, as a said, Ireland at a time was somewhat regarded as some kind of 'poor- house' even in Europe, it lay on the outskirts of Europe etc, etc ..

I still am to say that many 'true American phenomena ', like the Wild West cliche of the 1800s,with drinking whiskey, hillbillies, playing the banjo, dancing reel etc, heehee , clearly point to a heavy Irish influence.. And, as for the original title of this thread , the language..


- - - - -

:biggrin: .. face it guys.. there are just some stereotypes about civilisations which may sometimes be true..



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOYZaiDZ7BM




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9EZGHcu3E8.

- - - - -

:biggrin: .. yee-hawww!! :D

[Smeagol]

I still am to say that many 'true American phenomena ', like the Wild West cliche of the 1800s,with drinking whiskey, hillbillies, playing the banjo, dancing reel etc, heehee , clearly point to a heavy Irish influence..

More Scots-Irish. The Irish Catholics were mostly concentrated in urban areas. Also, German is not the largest ancestry among white Americans when you take into account all the southerners who just describe themselves as "American" but are mostly of English or Scots-Irish descent.

[Östsvensk]

In the 18th century, a London accent sounded a lot more like modern-day American English than a modern London accent does.


https://youtu.be/3lXv3Tt4x20

[Grace O'Malley]

People don't realise the English accent was once rhotic like the Irish and American accents. When the English colonised the US they still had a rhotic accent and it is the English accent that has changed to non-rhotic. Irish and Americans retain the earlier rhotic accents.


Those of us who roll our Rs – and this is one the few issues on which Ireland is united, north and south – are said by linguists to have "rhotic" accents.

Which is not to be confused “erotic”, although there may occasionally be overlaps, a subject to which we’ll return.

And English accents were mostly rhotic once, it’s thought, even Shakespeare’s.

But then Britain, or at least the influential southeast, began a long retreat from rhoticity. Eventually, r-rolling became unfashionable there, so that in rhotic outposts, including Ireland, Scotland, and the English west country, the tendency helped mark you out to London ears as a bumpkin.

This suppression of R sounds was in time exported to the colonies of South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand, all non-rhotic countries today. It also went to America, making the English-speaking parts of that predominantly non-rhotic for a time.

But here’s the irony for Churchillian English. It was war, and the Civil War in particular, that transformed the US into the rhotic world power it became, by nudging the country’s centre of gravity south from New England to places where the “prestige” accent was being overwhelmed by vulgar democracy.

The tidal wave of Irish immigrants in the mid-1800s must have been an influence too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/rolling-in-the-isles-an-irishman-s-diary-on-how-rhotic-accents-rule-the-world-1.3062373

There are still counties in England now that are rhotic such as Somerset and Devon.

Just out of interest for people the Dublin accent evolved from the Bristol accent.


The medieval connections
2021-2 marks the 850th anniversary of the conquest of Ireland by King Henry II of England. During his stay in Dublin at Christmas 1171, the king issued an extraordinary charter whereby he granted Dublin to ‘my men of Bristol’ and gave them permission to colonise their new possession.

https://artsmatter.blogs.bristol.ac.uk/2022/04/27/a-tale-of-two-cities-the-historical-links-between-bristol-and-dublin/

[Zevoos]

American English is based on the degradation of English English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdow47FQRfQ

"A little bottler of water" 0:50 sums it up perfectly.

[Creoda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S8JR4eJAXA&ab_channel=thomb092

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aTdZq7iB6w&ab_channel=thomb092

[Östsvensk]

There are still counties in England now that are rhotic such as Somerset and Devon.


https://youtu.be/Hs-rgvkRfwc

[Anglo-Celtic]

In the 18th century, a London accent sounded a lot more like modern-day American English than a modern London accent does.


https://youtu.be/3lXv3Tt4x20

LOL at the disclaimer. "Gee, Marge, those are real recordings of actual individuals from 1346!"

[Östsvensk]

LOL at the disclaimer. "Gee, Marge, those are real recordings of actual individuals from 1346!"

Huh? He says that in the video? I missed that. Anyway, he's not a linguist (as he states himself), so it's not the most serious video in the world. But it's still accurate to say that in 18th century England they spoke more like American English.


The British settlers coming to different parts of America in the 17th and 18th centuries were from different regional, class, and religious backgrounds, and brought with them distinctive ways of speaking. Puritans from East Anglia contributed to the classic Boston accent; Royalists migrating to the South brought a drawl; and Scots-Irish moved to the Appalaichans. Today’s American English is actually closer to 18th-century British English in pronunciation than current-day British English is. Sometime in the 19th century, British pronunciation changed significantly, particularly whether “r”s are pronounced after vowels.

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/3/8053521/25-maps-that-explain-english

[Creoda]

Huh? He says that in the video? I missed that. Anyway, he's not a linguist (as he states himself), so it's not the most serious video in the world. But it's still accurate to say that in 18th century England they spoke more like American English.


The British settlers coming to different parts of America in the 17th and 18th centuries were from different regional, class, and religious backgrounds, and brought with them distinctive ways of speaking. Puritans from East Anglia contributed to the classic Boston accent; Royalists migrating to the South brought a drawl; and Scots-Irish moved to the Appalaichans. Today’s American English is actually closer to 18th-century British English in pronunciation than current-day British English is. Sometime in the 19th century, British pronunciation changed significantly, particularly whether “r”s are pronounced after vowels.

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/3/8053521/25-maps-that-explain-english
In the video you posted his portrayal of 17th/18th century English from SE England sounded nothing like American English. Americans like to say that their accent is closer to Elizabethan or even Georgian English in England, but it's not a fact. It ignores that 'British English' is much more varied, then and now. The rural West Country accent (like the 20th century rural Southern English accents I posted) is the closest living accent to 17th/18th century Southern English dialects, and 17th/18th century Northern English or Scottish dialects certainly weren't closer to American English than to modern Northern English and Scottish accents, even with rhoticism. Non-rhotic speech also existed in SE/East England in the 17th century, even if a minority then.

[Hulu]

I don't understand why Australia's accent is different from American then since they were both settled at approx the same time

[Östsvensk]

I don't understand why Australia's accent is different from American then since they were both settled at approx the same time

Well, an alternate theory I have heard is that American English evolved partially from non-English settlers, like Dutch, who after they learned English influenced it that way with their foreign accents. This is perhaps supported, I guess, from that they say Dutch people can learn to speak American English fairly well (although others might say that's just because they've been influenced so much from American movies and television).

[Creoda]

I don't understand why Australia's accent is different from American then since they were both settled at approx the same time
Not exactly, the English/British settlement of America started in the early 1600s, the settlement of Australia started in the late 1700s. Evidently in the 1600s most of Southern England had rhotic speech, whereas in the late 1700s London and much of SE England (from where the Aus accent mostly comes) must have been non-rhotic. Plus Australia was still a set of colonies mostly populated by British migrants and their children until the 20th century, whereas America had separated in the 18th century and had many generations more to develop uniquely and in isolation.

Canada is bit of a mystery though. Obviously they share a border and practically free movement/cultural exchange with the US, but considering they were still a British colony/dominion until the 20th century, with loads of expats, it's strange that they sound so un-British or un-Australian, and are so culturally removed from other Commonwealth nations.

[Östsvensk]

Canada is bit of a mystery though. Obviously they share a border and practically free movement/cultural exchange with the US, but considering they were still a British colony/dominion until the 20th century, with loads of expats, it's strange that they sound so un-British or un-Australian, and are so culturally removed from other Commonwealth nations.

Among the English-speaking Canadians are the descendants of over 40,000 Americans who migrated there at the time of the Revolution. Many of the New Englanders went to the Maritime Provinces. The New Yorkers, however, favored Lower Ontario, where they were joined by a few Southerners and their house slaves. Between the Revolution and 1812, the number of Americans emigrating to Canada exceeded that of Europeans immigrating to the United States. As a result most English-speaking Canadians have an American accent, with a few Scottish modifications.--The Living Races of Man, C.Coon, 1965, pp.310

[Ruggery]

Among the English-speaking Canadians are the descendants of over 40,000 Americans who migrated there at the time of the Revolution. Many of the New Englanders went to the Maritime Provinces. The New Yorkers, however, favored Lower Ontario, where they were joined by a few Southerners and their house slaves. Between the Revolution and 1812, the number of Americans emigrating to Canada exceeded that of Europeans immigrating to the United States. As a result most English-speaking Canadians have an American accent, with a few Scottish modifications.--The Living Races of Man, C.Coon, 1965, pp.310

Do you mean that there are more Canadians of American descent than of English or British descent?

[Anglo-Celtic]

Huh? He says that in the video? I missed that. Anyway, he's not a linguist (as he states himself), so it's not the most serious video in the world. But it's still accurate to say that in 18th century England they spoke more like American English.


The British settlers coming to different parts of America in the 17th and 18th centuries were from different regional, class, and religious backgrounds, and brought with them distinctive ways of speaking. Puritans from East Anglia contributed to the classic Boston accent; Royalists migrating to the South brought a drawl; and Scots-Irish moved to the Appalaichans. Today’s American English is actually closer to 18th-century British English in pronunciation than current-day British English is. Sometime in the 19th century, British pronunciation changed significantly, particularly whether “r”s are pronounced after vowels.

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/3/8053521/25-maps-that-explain-english

No. I just thought that the disclaimer was LOL.

[Östsvensk]

Do you mean that there are more Canadians of American descent than of English or British descent?

No, he goes on to state that there later was heavy British immigration to Canada (between 1846 and 1854, half a million British including many Irish came). He also says that some of the 19th century waves of Europeans heading for the US also went to Canada. But he seems to say that because Americans immigrated first, this developed a more American-natured accent.

[Graham]

I don't understand why Australia's accent is different from American then since they were both settled at approx the same time

People in Britain can live on towns within miles and sound very different and then within those areas you have stronger accents, in that way it makes sense.

Aussies sound more working class South East English to me, with a sort of nasal sound and upwards inflection. I know people in Somerset who again sound West Country.

I'll add that middle class Irish and Scots do slip into a transatlantic accent very easily in comparison to the English. It wouldn't take much effort.

[Tooting Carmen]

To some extent, yes.

[Cold Fire]

... no offense , but I don' t know why some people here try to get so complicated with this.


... yes , the language in England might not always have been the same but there certainly is a pattern to it.

I' d go so far as to claim that roughly there might have been three variations of english even before America was settled.


The english of England, which could be regarded more or less as 'the original pronounciation' , from the Anglo-Saxons still stemming , the English of areas like Scotland and Wales , especially Scotland , with rolling r's ( the original Scottish , Welsh were Celtic / Gaelic, not germanic like the Anglo-Saxons , so they more or less had their own pronounciation of English ... )


Ireland, gotta admit, has seen some people within its borders at all times... Gaels , Romans , Vikings, Normans etc etc . .

Ireland' s pronounciation of english may always have been unique . .




... I'd go so far as to correct myself and say that maybe already from 1600 on Irish might have travelled to America in large masses . . . .

[Grace O'Malley]

... no offense , but I don' t know why some people here try to get so complicated with this.


... yes , the language in England might not always have been the same but there certainly is a pattern to it.

I' d go so far as to claim that roughly there might have been three variations of english even before America was settled.


The english of England, which could be regarded more or less as 'the original pronounciation' , from the Anglo-Saxons still stemming , the English of areas like Scotland and Wales , especially Scotland , with rolling r's ( the original Scottish , Welsh were Celtic / Gaelic, not germanic like the Anglo-Saxons , so they more or less had their own pronounciation of English ... )

Ireland, gotta admit, has seen some people within its borders at all times... Gaels , Romans , Vikings, Normans etc etc . .

Ireland' s pronounciation of english may always have been unique . .


... I'd go so far as to correct myself and say that maybe already from 1600 on Irish might have travelled to America in large masses . . . .

Romans did not go to Ireland and the Welsh are not Gaelic.

[Cold Fire]

Romans did not go to Ireland and the Welsh are not Gaelic.

I'm sorry , two clarifications..

Maybe when writing the above post I let myself blind a little bit by the fact that Roman catholicism was received by the irish lol, that was actually done by a missionary St Patrick with no original Romans involved . .

So yeah, we can forget about Romans on Irish soil..


Concerning Welsh, Gaelic . .

The original irish language is called 'Gaeilge '..

.. maybe I let myself be blinded a bit by the fact that the original language of Ireland is called Gaelic and that ethnologists agree that ethnically the Scots, Welsh and Irish were part of the same tribe in ancient times . .

Hell, I even heard that the people of Ireland , Scots , from Wales and the French Bretagne could allegedly understand each other when speaking in their indigenous languages ( ! ) . . . Which would give credence to the fact that they are / were part of the same tribe . . . .

[Creoda]

... no offense , but I don' t know why some people here try to get so complicated with this.


... yes , the language in England might not always have been the same but there certainly is a pattern to it.

I' d go so far as to claim that roughly there might have been three variations of english even before America was settled.


The english of England, which could be regarded more or less as 'the original pronounciation' , from the Anglo-Saxons still stemming , the English of areas like Scotland and Wales , especially Scotland , with rolling r's ( the original Scottish , Welsh were Celtic / Gaelic, not germanic like the Anglo-Saxons , so they more or less had their own pronounciation of English ... )

Ireland, gotta admit, has seen some people within its borders at all times... Gaels , Romans , Vikings, Normans etc etc . .

Ireland' s pronounciation of english may always have been unique . .

The Scots 'language' (as opposed to the Scottish accent) is the best preserved form of Old English that exists. That is because the Normans massively Frenchified English in England in the Middle Ages, but this mostly didn't happen in Scotland, and the English spoken there in the Lowlands retained much of its' Germanic purity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cENbkHS3mnY&ab_channel=KatMacLeodScotland

Equally, English in Northern England was less Frenchified and thus closer to Old English sounds than the Southern English dialects (plus the North had a lot more Norse influence)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov0OEAF5Fv8&ab_channel=SimonRoper

Ireland had its' own English dialects (like Yola) in the Medieval and Early Modern periods, but they're extinct now, and they didn't have influence elsewhere. And the Romans never set foot in Hibernia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKbY3P860o&ab_channel=ILoveLanguages%21



... I'd go so far as to correct myself and say that maybe already from 1600 on Irish might have travelled to America in large masses . . . .You're basing that on nothing other than a feeling. They didn't travel to America en masse until the 1800s.
https://i.postimg.cc/VLV56xPt/Screenshot-2023-06-11-171519.png
You can hear the direct origin of American accents in the videos of rural Southern English accents I posted earlier.

Obviously other groups have influenced American English since then, particularly in certain regions. eg, Scandinavians and Germans in the Midwest, Irish, Italians and Jews in the Northeast, Blacks in the South to some extent, and I guess Ulster Scots in the Appalachian mountains.

[Grace O'Malley]

I'm sorry , two clarifications..

Maybe when writing the above post I let myself blind a little bit by the fact that Roman catholicism was received by the irish lol, that was actually done by a missionary St Patrick with no original Romans involved . .

So yeah, we can forget about Romans on Irish soil..


Concerning Welsh, Gaelic . .

The original irish language is called 'Gaeilge '..

.. maybe I let myself be blinded a bit by the fact that the original language of Ireland is called Gaelic and that ethnologists agree that ethnically the Scots, Welsh and Irish were part of the same tribe in ancient times . .

Hell, I even heard that the people of Ireland , Scots , from Wales and the French Bretagne could allegedly understand each other when speaking in their indigenous languages ( ! ) . . . Which would give credence to the fact that they are / were part of the same tribe . .

No they aren't really the same. Irish and West Scots are closest genetically. English are closer to Welsh than the Irish are to Welsh and Irish are closer to Scots and English than they are to the Welsh. The Welsh and Bretons speak a different branch of Celtic i.e. Brythonic while the Irish branch is Goidelic which is why they are Gaels. Irish speakers cannot understand Welsh speakers and vice versa. Donegal Irish speakers can understand Scottish Gaelic.

[Grace O'Malley]

Irish and Scottish Gaelic speakers can hold a conversation with each other.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xdn-lqZONs

Welsh speakers and Irish or Scottish Gaelic speakers will not be able to understand each other.

[Chron]

To add to what everyone else here has said, the accents of England have been changing fast since the popularization of TV and radio.

https://i.redd.it/zb4kwmayv3mz.png

[Tooting Carmen]

To add to what everyone else here has said, the accents of England have been changing fast since the popularization of TV and radio.

https://i.redd.it/zb4kwmayv3mz.png

Yeah, the rural West Country and East Anglia accents in particular are very much on their way out.

[Cold Fire]

.. if we strictly stick to facts concerning this subject I'd say..


1 ) the American accent is rhotic like Irish..

2 ) American traits like for example pronouncing t's as d's ( e.g. 'sexuality' - 'sexualiddy' ) .. also an Irish phenomenon...

3 ) the accent of the more Celtic influenced areas of the British Isles, like Scotland and Wales, is mostly based on rolling r's ( since English wasn't the original language of the Celtic inhabitants of the British Isles, it was introduced by the Anglo-Saxons, so they had their own style of English..)..

4 ) it wouldn't be surprising if the Irish had their own style of pronouncing English, since Ireland was in a way isolated from the 'British mainland', their neighbouring isle and since it has seen, apart from the original Celtic inhabitants , Viking and Norman invasions..

5 ) as I've said in this thread before , if the fact of Ireland being a major cultural influence on America is true then it would maybe also be visible by religious denominations within America since the Irish are said to be a heavily catholic people... - - - - -> Religious denominational balance came and went in America...

[Creoda]

.. if we strictly stick to facts concerning this subject I'd say..


1 ) the American accent is rhotic like Irish..

2 ) American traits like for example pronouncing t's as d's ( e.g. 'sexuality' - 'sexualiddy' ) .. also an Irish phenomenon...

3 ) the accent of the more Celtic influenced areas of the British Isles, like Scotland and Wales, is mostly based on rolling r's ( since English wasn't the original language of the Celtic inhabitants of the British Isles, it was introduced by the Anglo-Saxons, so they had their own style of English..)..

4 ) it wouldn't be surprising if the Irish had their own style of pronouncing English, since Ireland was in a way isolated from the 'British mainland', their neighbouring isle and since it has seen, apart from the original Celtic inhabitants , Viking and Norman invasions..

5 ) as I've said in this thread before , if the fact of Ireland being a major cultural influence on America is true then it would maybe also be visible by religious denominations within America since the Irish are said to be a heavily catholic people... - - - - -> Religious denominational balance came and went in America...
If you want to know the basis of the American culture/s and accents I'd advise you to read/listen to Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer.

Many of the American cultural stereotypes you link to the Irish come from the so-called Scotch-Irish, who were Protestants mostly from Lowland Scotland + Northern England originally, via Northern Ireland.

Those people however called themselves 'Irish' in America before the mid 19th century, when the waves of Irish Catholic immigrants caused them to be differentiated as the Scotch-Irish.

[Roy]

... no offense , but I don' t know why some people here try to get so complicated with this.


... yes , the language in England might not always have been the same but there certainly is a pattern to it.

I' d go so far as to claim that roughly there might have been three variations of english even before America was settled.


The english of England, which could be regarded more or less as 'the original pronounciation' , from the Anglo-Saxons still stemming , the English of areas like Scotland and Wales , especially Scotland , with rolling r's ( the original Scottish , Welsh were Celtic / Gaelic, not germanic like the Anglo-Saxons , so they more or less had their own pronounciation of English ... )


Ireland, gotta admit, has seen some people within its borders at all times... Gaels , Romans , Vikings, Normans etc etc . .

Ireland' s pronounciation of english may always have been unique . .




... I'd go so far as to correct myself and say that maybe already from 1600 on Irish might have travelled to America in large masses . . . .

Aapparently until the 1960s like 50% of England had rhotic accent.

[Tooting Carmen]

Aapparently until the 1960s like 50% of England had rhotic accent.

No, outside the Southwest it hasn't been anything like that high for centuries.

[Sheppey]

. . how I view America as such..

It, from the beginning, was more or less planned as ' the new world ' as opposed to the 'Old Europe ', where people from Europe strought to start 'a different life '.. Often the people in question were victims of religious discrimination in Europe ( each case might have differed from another.. ).. You have to remember that in older times people were not maybe just looked down upon because of having a different faith than the rest of a region , they could actually be POLITICALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST because of their faith..

So.. mass immigration to America began..


It may have started out as an English colony , soon every European naval power at that time sought influence there ( French , still the Spanish , Dutch ...) , in time.. see above..

- - -
Concerning the original claim of this thread.. it would make sense that Irish maybe would in time become the largest immigrant caste to America.. first of all, Ireland had many religious tensions, second, as a said, Ireland at a time was somewhat regarded as some kind of 'poor- house' even in Europe, it lay on the outskirts of Europe etc, etc ..

I still am to say that many 'true American phenomena ', like the Wild West cliche of the 1800s,with drinking whiskey, hillbillies, playing the banjo, dancing reel etc, heehee , clearly point to a heavy Irish influence.. And, as for the original title of this thread , the language..


- - - - -



LOL, mate, I am sort chuffed to bits by what you said. America started out as a colony for religious freedom. It really started to change with Irish immigration during the potato famine. The Irish proved to the natives that they were 'white' by more brutally oppressing the 'black Americans'. Then the poor genetic refuse of Eastern Europe and southern Europe followed and America has never recovered because of it. Americans identify as 'Irish' because they don't know history or anything about the world outside of America so they delusionally think being Irish as almost as good as being English and they are , in fact, plastic paddies :


https://i.postimg.cc/wTJBQbkd/leface.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6WYHbZ3/irish.png


https://youtu.be/PcIX-U5w5Ws

[Grace O'Malley]

LOL, mate, I am sort chuffed to bits by what you said. America started out as a colony for religious freedom. It really started to change with Irish immigration during the potato famine. The Irish proved to the natives that they were 'white' by more brutally oppressing the 'black Americans'. Then the poor genetic refuse of Eastern Europe and southern Europe followed and America has never recovered because of it. Americans identify as 'Irish' because they don't know history or anything about the world outside of America so they delusionally think being Irish as almost as good as being English and they are , in fact, plastic paddies :


https://i.postimg.cc/wTJBQbkd/leface.png

https://i.postimg.cc/B6WYHbZ3/irish.png


https://youtu.be/PcIX-U5w5Ws

The Irish were always "white" in the US. No point is trying to spread false history just because you have complexes. Everyone knows the Irish are European and look it. Do you think you look European? The Irish were always legally white and even checking Census records from when the Irish went to the US confirms this.

You obviously have very low self esteem. I sometimes think I should just ignore your rantings because you have problems.

[Sheppey]

The Irish were always "white" in the US. No point is trying to spread false history just because you have complexes. Everyone knows the Irish are European and look it. Do you think you look European? The Irish were always legally white and even checking Census records from when the Irish went to the US confirms this.

You obviously have very low self esteem. I sometimes think I should just ignore your rantings because you have problems.

The Irish became 'white' by oppressing black people and because other more seemingly alien groups like slavics and southern Europeans came but 'white' is kind of meaningless in the UK. In the UK the Irish have to check the the box 'white Irish' instead of just simply 'white' like in America :


https://i.postimg.cc/8c5k0hfL/victoria.jpg

From the work of Ernest Renan (La Poeésie des Races Celtiques, 1854) it was broadly argued that the Celt was poetic, light-hearted and imaginative, highly emotional, playful, passionate, and sentimental. But these were characteristics the Victorians also associated with children. Thus the Irish were "immature" and in need of guidance by others, more highly developed than themselves. Irish "emotion" was contrasted, unfavorably, with English "reason", Irish "femininity" with English "masculine" virtues, Irish "poetic" attributes with English "pragmatism".



You obviously have very low self esteem. I sometimes think I should just ignore your rantings because you have problems.

Yes, my problem is that I am talking to a bloody Aussie and Australia is more like America culturally. America and England are literally completely different countries.

BTW, I look West Germanic not albino-esque North Germanic.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Irish became 'white' by oppressing black people and because other more seemingly alien groups like slavics and southern Europeans came but 'white' is kind of meaningless in the UK. In the UK the Irish have to check the the box 'white Irish' instead of just simply 'white' like in America :


https://i.postimg.cc/8c5k0hfL/victoria.jpg

From the work of Ernest Renan (La Poeésie des Races Celtiques, 1854) it was broadly argued that the Celt was poetic, light-hearted and imaginative, highly emotional, playful, passionate, and sentimental. But these were characteristics the Victorians also associated with children. Thus the Irish were "immature" and in need of guidance by others, more highly developed than themselves. Irish "emotion" was contrasted, unfavorably, with English "reason", Irish "femininity" with English "masculine" virtues, Irish "poetic" attributes with English "pragmatism".




Yes, my problem is that I am talking to a bloody Aussie and Australia is more like America culturally. America and England are literally completely different countries.

BTW, I look West Germanic not albino-esque North Germanic.

It requires woeful patience dealing with you. The Irish have always been white. Do you think people can become white?

In the UK there are categories like White British, White Irish and White Other. It's a bit painful having to discuss these obvious points. Why are you acting a bit thick? I'm sure you aren't unintelligent but this is getting quite tedious.

I know some of this is trolling but you post the same stuff over and over and just ignore when people contradict you. I guess the best thing would be to just ignore you as there is no point interacting with you. I don't know what point you are trying to make on here other than being a painful troll.

[Sheppey]

It requires woeful patience dealing with you. The Irish have always been white. Do you think people can become white?

In the UK there are categories like White British, White Irish and White Other. It's a bit painful having to discuss these obvious points. Why are you acting a bit thick? I'm sure you aren't unintelligent but this is getting quite tedious.

I know some of this is trolling but you post the same stuff over and over and just ignore when people contradict you. I guess the best thing would be to just ignore you as there is no point interacting with you. I don't know what point you are trying to make on here other than being a painful troll.

Bloody daft Aussies don't have mentally keen perception so what is obvious to you is not obvious to a Brit :


https://i.postimg.cc/3RKrGxVq/bork-010.png

https://i.postimg.cc/dtX8jbq6/bork-044.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Bloody daft Aussies don't have mentally keen perception so what is obvious to you is not obvious to a Brit :


https://i.postimg.cc/3RKrGxVq/bork-010.png

https://i.postimg.cc/dtX8jbq6/bork-044.png

And you're a multi-generational American and I was born in Ireland with all my ancestry Irish and yet you want to masquerade as English for some delusional reason? One thing I can say is that I am what I say I am. I'm not here for trolling purposes like you. :thumb001:

[Sheppey]

And you're a multi-generational American and I was born in Ireland with all my ancestry Irish and yet you want to masquerade as English for some delusional reason? One thing I can say is that I am what I say I am. I'm not here for trolling purposes like you. :thumb001:

America is not a real country. It is just 10 companies or corporations in a trench coat pretending to be one country. Americans don't exist so I am sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you doll. America is a fake country , with fake people who speak words with no meaning like robots.

[Grace O'Malley]

America is not a real country. It is just 10 companies or corporations in a trench coat pretending to be one country. Americans don't exist so I am sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you doll. America is a fake country , with fake people who speak words with no meaning like robots.

I really like the US. I feel an affinity with the US as I have family that went there so have American relatives (I'm not in touch with them but I would have some that would be 2nd cousin, 3rd cousin level). I've read American literature and love American film including some older cinema going back to the 30s. America definitely has a huge influence on the world. Some not so great I'll be honest but a lot of great things as well. You might have reasons for being disillusioned but every country has its good and bad. The US would be the no 1 most influential country in the world. There is no other country that comes close whether people like it or not.

[Sheppey]

I really like the US. I feel an affinity with the US as I have family that went there so have American relatives (I'm not in touch with them but I would have some that would be 2nd cousin, 3rd cousin level). I've read American literature and love American film including some older cinema going back to the 30s. America definitely has a huge influence on the world. Some not so great I'll be honest but a lot of great things as well. You might have reasons for being disillusioned but every country has its good and bad. The US would be the no 1 most influential country in the world. There is no other country that comes close whether people like it or not.


"America is a fake country. As a political state, its beginnings were multicultural, multi-lingual, and built on an economic foundation of feudal exploitation via slavery and indentured servitude."

https://brooklynrail.org/2018/03/music/Fake-Music-For-Fake-Times


England is a real country or nation it is pretty much that simple doll.

[♥ Lily ♥]

That Americans much more emphasisze the 'r' ( for example for 'car park' they would pronounce it like 'carr parrk' ) and 't's' are often made 'd's'.. Like 'sexualiddy' for 'sexuality' . .

Often people realize(d) that American English doesn't really sound like, for example, in England . .


A small correction in the thread title: the correct spelling is "pronunciation" - not "pronounciation." (People often confuse the spelling of this word.)

Rhotic accents (where there is emphasis on the letter R) were widespread across England during the 16th century and during William Shakespeare's era, but nowadays rhotic accents are mostly confined to south-west England (aka "The West Country,") which are the counties of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, and also includes Bristol too.

I'm originally from "The West Country" in Dorset in south-west England, but I have a neutral southern English accent (Received Pronunciation) with no strong regional accent or dialect as I'm originally from the eastern region of Dorset where many people (especially amongst the younger generations) don't have a rhotic accent either and use the standard Received Pronunication instead, (and I also spent part of my childhood growing up in Kent in south-east England where my relatives moved to live for 5 years before returning to Dorset,) - but the further west of Dorset one travels, the West Country accents are more frequently heard.

There's still plenty of regions across the West Country where people still have strong rhotic accents, even amongst the younger generation in cities such as Bristol. Some of my aunts and uncles (both maternal and paternal sides) have rhotic West Country accents, but they grew up on farms in western Dorset, and my father was also raised as an orphan on a farm in western Dorset where the people spoke with strong rhotic accents, but he doesn't have a rhotic accent and neither does my mother, although my maternal grandparents had very slight rhotic accents, and some of my teachers in school had stronger rhotic accents. Two of my paternal uncles who now live in Ireland have strong rhotic West Country accents.

Rhotic accents are also widespread in Ireland.

Here's some examples of West Country rhotic accents that are heard across south-west England, which are often stereotyped with farmers:

Cornish accent: (Only a small % of Cornish people actually support separatism.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmtqn8wANLY

A West Country accent from Gloucestershire (which is pronounced as "GLOSS-ter-shire") in south-west England:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BErF_KpU5fw

The West Country accents have slight variations across the different counties of SW England, but they're all rhotic accents. They're still different to Irish and US and Canadian accents due to the different pronunciations of vowels and other letters.

[Cold Fire]

I appreciate the input of all..

.. even though certain other possibilities were put into the room except for Irish being at the center of American culture..

The idea that North- America was a haven for especially Irish immigrants ( North-America in this case means U. S. A. and Canada ), that American English sounds more like today's Irish pronunciation , that once the confessional balance there ( Irish = mostly catholic... ) was different doesn't sound too off, does it . . ? . .

Yes , many people from European countries moved to America at all times but.. if the theory above is true , that'd mean that despite Germans , Swedish , Italian , Dutch et al somehow an 'Irish mentality ' built the groundwork for America..

After all.. also... since there COULDN'T BE any 'specifically American' culture since AMERICA was settled from the 'Old World' and everything therein would have to originate there I think maybe it was the Irish which mentality laid the ground works ( like I said , especially the 'American West'-cliches, heehee , with 'hillbillies' , dancing reel , whiskey , banjo et al.. )..

The USA did start out as an English colony , it would appear from a certain time on especially Irish took the chance to move into the ' New World ', other European nationalities followed..

Today , of course , one can say , there maybe isn't ANY nationality on Earth which isn't already present as an immigrant- group in USA....


https://www.ippnw.de/commonFiles/bilder/Geschichte/kdfbild_web.jpg

https://www.creativefabrica.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/09/USA-flag-icon-vector-Graphics-17021769-1-580x387.jpg
:ohwell:

Disclaimer : This post is not intended in any way to portray America as bad and /or to play on American cliches, just historical. And it certainly isn't the case that I couldn't stand the Irish.. :)
https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1469816157/vector/flag-of-ireland-heart-shape-with-clover-vector.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=mqXD4M3UaPCd7P-CV1ChtivzJYUHGTo14aWAr6os2pA=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5QSriCubfE

:thumb001:

[Cold Fire]

I think it's safe to say that..

a ) the english in America sounds like the Irish pronunciation...
b ) the American West cliches like hillbillies , dancing reel ,pourin' lots of whiskey , playing banjo, heehee, etc point to an Irish influence..
c ) religious denominational balance ( cliche : Irish = Catholic ) came and went in America...
d ) the Irish immigration to America from about 1800 on is well documented..
e ) No offense but Ireland has always been some kind of troubled place within Europe.. The conquering attempts of the English rulers etc.. Apart from that Ireland was often plagued by famines , bad harvests etc ...


Yes , I can understand people pointing to linguistic differences even within England , people who would point to the Ulster-Scots rather than the irish themselves because of them being 'irish-ised' but being Protestants as roots of America and so on..


But, my personal belief.. see above..

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/usa-ireland-handshake-symbol-agreement-friendship-usa-ireland-handshake-259725578.jpg

[Odelia]

People don't realise the English accent was once rhotic like the Irish and American accents. When the English colonised the US they still had a rhotic accent and it is the English accent that has changed to non-rhotic. Irish and Americans retain the earlier rhotic accents.



https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/rolling-in-the-isles-an-irishman-s-diary-on-how-rhotic-accents-rule-the-world-1.3062373

There are still counties in England now that are rhotic such as Somerset and Devon.

Just out of interest for people the Dublin accent evolved from the Bristol accent.



https://artsmatter.blogs.bristol.ac.uk/2022/04/27/a-tale-of-two-cities-the-historical-links-between-bristol-and-dublin/
I wonder how the rhotic R was used back then in England? Was it the Spanish sounding trilling R or the rolled R that we use now in words like 'rearing'? Too much R sound is annoying, even coming from an American. There's a reason why the R sound is dropped in songs. Too much R is not so pleasing to the ears, considering that english words has a lot of Rs - maybe that's why england become more non-rhotic? And we seem to hit the R very hard here. The Baltimore accent is the worst offender:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esl_wOQDUeE

I wonder how and why England lost its rhoticity? And was it the londoners who spread the non-rhoticity around? Queen's english sounds very pleasant. Why? Mostly because it's non-rhotic and has a smooth flow.