Tell Me Things About E-V13

[Occiput in Starlight]

Any and all info/opinions are welcome.

I am wanting to acquaint myself with my Y-dna.

[oszkar07]

some say it is the Ydna of the beast , evil 13.

However I believe it is indeed the Ydna of good men, brave and strong men belittled by doubt.

In my humble oppinion.

[Occiput in Starlight]

some say it is the Ydna of the beast , evil 13.

However I believe it is indeed the Ydna of good men, brave and strong men belittled by doubt.

In my humble oppinion.

Intriguing.

[Coastal Elite]

some say it is the Ydna of the beast , evil 13.

However I believe it is indeed the Ydna of good men, brave and strong men belittled by doubt.

In my humble oppinion.

We are sensitive poets

[Occiput in Starlight]

Would someone do me a kindness, and communicate the Serbian, Albanian and Vlachic contexts of E-V13?

[Occiput in Starlight]

Here's one:

If ev13 is associated with the spread of neolithic farming, how is it also considered a recent European haplogroup?

Online are a lot of references to ev13 and neolithic farmers, but there are also a lot of references to ev13's newness to Europe. I cannot reconcile the two.

Anyway, goodnight.





I don't understand

[FaZe]

https://phylogeographer.com/iron-age-e-y20805-is-a-microcosm-of-the-geographic-distribution-of-e-v13/



I've been asked many times what I thought about E-V13, because the age and geographic distribution centered in the Balkans have some similarities with my own J2b-L283.

My answer has always been that this isn't my research focus, but that eventually I would like to delve into E-V13.




So until ancient samples shed further light, I would consider the region between the Pannonian Basin, North Macedonia and Central Albania to be the most likely origin of E-V13, that single man who lived about 4800 years ago.




It is worth taking the Pannonian Basin into consideration as a possible origin despite the lower surviving relative frequency there. After all, the populations living in the Pannonian Basin and Danube River valley saw a lot of events in recorded history that would have led to substantial Y-DNA replacement. Notably the Mongols killed 300,000 - 500,000 people there




Interestingly, the diversity map computes higher diversity for E-V13 in the Pannonian Basin vs elsewhere in Central Europe or the Balkans. And this diversity calculation was based on only the limited number of 9 Hun Avar samples having been added to the YFull YTree out of the 17-20 found.




The main conclusion I draw from this comparison is that E-V13 or its early branches did not originate along the Adriatic coast of modern Croatia. More likely E-V13 originated/diversified further inland in the Balkans or Central Europe than J2b-L283, which would help explain why it did not colonize Italy to the same extent that J2b-L283 did during the Bronze and Iron Age.

[FaZe]

Same thing for R1b-Z2103 , some new study on Ancient DNA found 25 samples in South-East Albania, all males belonged to Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563. Coastal areas of the Balkans are largely dominated by J-L283. North-Eastern Albania was a mix of R1b and J-L283.

E-L618, the parent of E-V13, has been found in Neolithic Croatia and IA/BA Macedonia. It was also found among Thracians.

[Beowulf]

Maybe is related with Paleo Balkan people, Thracians, Illyrians Dacians...

[Occiput in Starlight]

https://phylogeographer.com/iron-age-e-y20805-is-a-microcosm-of-the-geographic-distribution-of-e-v13/


Same thing for R1b-Z2103 , some new study on Ancient DNA found 25 samples in South-East Albania, all males belonged to Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563. Coastal areas of the Balkans are largely dominated by J-L283. North-Eastern Albania was a mix of R1b and J-L283.

E-L618, the parent of E-V13, has been found in Neolithic Croatia and IA/BA Macedonia. It was also found among Thracians.

Cheers, man.

I'm enjoying reading about E-V13.

I told my brother yesterday that we have a very cool ydna haplo indeed.


Maybe is related with Paleo Balkan people, Thracians, Illyrians Dacians...

Feiichy suggested as much too - she referenced Dacians and Thracians.

I also read something about E-V13 being found among remains tested from Viminacium.

[Occiput in Starlight]

Same thing for R1b-Z2103 , some new study on Ancient DNA found 25 samples in South-East Albania, all males belonged to Y-DNA R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563. Coastal areas of the Balkans are largely dominated by J-L283. North-Eastern Albania was a mix of R1b and J-L283.

E-L618, the parent of E-V13, has been found in Neolithic Croatia and IA/BA Macedonia. It was also found among Thracians.

It is far less likely for a European to have E-L618 rather than E-V13, right? Or am I misunderstanding genetics?

[Petalpusher]

Here's one:

If ev13 is associated with the spread of neolithic farming, how is it also considered a recent European haplogroup?

Online are a lot of references to ev13 and neolithic farmers, but there are also a lot of references to ev13's newness to Europe. I cannot reconcile the two.



It's not associated with neolithic farming overall. Out of all the 70 neolithic samples found, only a few were E, indeed in the Balkan area indeed but that's a frequency lower than any country today in Europe, Finland is more E then that. Most farmers from the neolithic era were G, then l2a and a bit of everything else.

In Balkan its clearly part of the source but elsewhere it came later in the metal ages and the cultures associated with it, they assimilated progressively something "southern" that had a lot of E. Not necessarily the basal part of the Yamnaya kind either but later on Bronze age groups became very diverse.

[Occiput in Starlight]

It's not associated with neolithic farming overall. Out of all the 70 neolithic samples found, only a few were E, indeed in the Balkan area indeed but that's a frequency lower than any country today in Europe, Finland is more E then that. Most farmers from the neolithic era were G, then l2a and a bit of everything else.

In Balkan its clearly part of the source but elsewhere it came later in the metal ages and the cultures associated with it, they assimilated progressively something "southern" that had a lot of E. Not necessarily the basal part of the Yamnaya kind either but later on Bronze age groups became very diverse.

Good evening.

Now that you mention it, I did read something yesterday about a bronze age elite dispersal of E-V13, and how that might account for the haplo's epic spread over Southern Europe.

Thank you for the post.

Keep 'em coming.

[Occiput in Starlight]

It's not associated with neolithic farming overall. Out of all the 70 neolithic samples found, only a few were E, indeed in the Balkan area indeed but that's a frequency lower than any country today in Europe, Finland is more E then that. Most farmers from the neolithic era were G, then l2a and a bit of everything else.

In Balkan its clearly part of the source but elsewhere it came later in the metal ages and the cultures associated with it, they assimilated progressively something "southern" that had a lot of E. Not necessarily the basal part of the Yamnaya kind either but later on Bronze age groups became very diverse.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but, if E-V13 isn't associated with farming, but we know it was in Europe during neolithic times, what, if anything, do we associate neolithic European E-V13 with?

[Grace O'Malley]

It's not associated with neolithic farming overall. Out of all the 70 neolithic samples found, only a few were E, indeed in the Balkan area indeed but that's a frequency lower than any country today in Europe, Finland is more E then that. Most farmers from the neolithic era were G, then l2a and a bit of everything else.

In Balkan its clearly part of the source but elsewhere it came later in the metal ages and the cultures associated with it, they assimilated progressively something "southern" that had a lot of E. Not necessarily the basal part of the Yamnaya kind either but later on Bronze age groups became very diverse.

Isn't I2a a HG ydna that farmers in certain areas acquired?

[Petalpusher]

Isn't I2a a HG ydna that farmers in certain areas acquired?

Yes like C and F, and maybe even E. That was what we found in neolithic cultures, we are never sure if it was the result of a quick local absorbtion of hunters (like l2a is) or it was brought with the farmers, cause it's hard to catch remains that just arrived on site and while we can narrow down a point of entry or departure, we are not 100% sure which particular group migrated either and if they were exactly the same than sampled in Anatolia. With C for example, it was def in paleo Europe but we know the early farmers also had WHG in them before they even crossed the boundaries of Europe, so it's still possible, especially at Iron gates "Interpersonal violence at Lepenski Vir Mesolithic/Neolithic complex of the Iron Gates Gorge" is a good read.

It's more important to look at the whole picture and frequency, clearly the neolithic farmers from NW Anatolias were not E rich but mostly G (+60%), that part is for sure. We know those were not descendants of Natufians for example (only E).

If today Europeans were to invade let's say China in the same kind of process of replacement, yes thousands of years later, we might find a few E but we would mostly find R1 y-dna.

[Occiput in Starlight]

Yes like C and F, and maybe even E. That was what we found in neolithic cultures, we are never sure if it was the result of a quick local absorbtion of hunters (like l2a is) or it was brought with the farmers, cause it's hard to catch remains that just arrived on site and while we can narrow down a point of entry or departure, we are not 100% sure which particular group migrated either and if they were exactly the same than sampled in Anatolia. With C for example, it was def in paleo Europe but we know the early farmers also had WHG in them before they even crossed the boundaries of Europe, so it's still possible, especially at Iron gates "Interpersonal violence at Lepenski Vir Mesolithic/Neolithic complex of the Iron Gates Gorge" is a good read.

It's more important to look at the whole picture and frequency, clearly the neolithic farmers from NW Anatolias were not E rich but mostly G (+60%), that part is for sure. We know those were not descendants of Natufians for example (only E).

If today Europeans were to invade let's say China in the same kind of process of replacement, yes thousands of years later, we might find a few E but we would mostly find R1 y-dna.

I really enjoyed that.


OiS

[Occiput in Starlight]

@ Petalpusher

Please expand upon your Natufian reference when you have a spare few moments.

I don't understand that aspect of E-V13. Online people write about Romans and slaves and Egyptians and Sea Peoples..

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes like C and F, and maybe even E. That was what we found in neolithic cultures, we are never sure if it was the result of a quick local absorbtion of hunters (like l2a is) or it was brought with the farmers, cause it's hard to catch remains that just arrived on site and while we can narrow down a point of entry or departure, we are not 100% sure which particular group migrated either and if they were exactly the same than sampled in Anatolia. With C for example, it was def in paleo Europe but we know the early farmers also had WHG in them before they even crossed the boundaries of Europe, so it's still possible, especially at Iron gates "Interpersonal violence at Lepenski Vir Mesolithic/Neolithic complex of the Iron Gates Gorge" is a good read.

It's more important to look at the whole picture and frequency, clearly the neolithic farmers from NW Anatolias were not E rich but mostly G (+60%), that part is for sure. We know those were not descendants of Natufians for example (only E).

I2a is definitely HGs. It is interesting that in some places it completely dominated the Farmers so that it was the only ydna. This was from a paper by Lara Cassidy about Irish Farmers. The paper is presently embargoed but I got this when it was available for a short time before being embargoed again. HGs completely replaced the ydna of the farmers and then of course nearly another complete replacement with the Bell Beakers coming during the Bronze Age.


Mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies mirror the autosomal patterns of population replacement with some indigenous input, showing a minority of Mesolithic U5 lineages observed among an abundance of west Asian haplogroups. However, in striking contrast, Y chromosomes show near complete continuity across the transition, with all but two male individuals belonging to the dominant Mesolithic lineage I2a. This may be indicative of unequal contribution by male and female hunter-gatherers to incoming farmer populations, though in a reverse of the usual trend witnessed across episodes of colonisation, that of female continuity and male replacement (Jobling & Tyler-Smith 2003). Alternatively the smaller effective population size and thus increased drift acting on the Y chromosome may be responsible for the differential patterns.

[Occiput in Starlight]

I am going to learn a lot from this thread.

[MandM]

This means your ancestors most likley originated from the balkans " congratz", if you want it more detalied you have to take dna test on FTDNA or somthing similar to get your haplogroup sub bransch and it will be easier to pin point your ancestory.
How far back do you know your ancestory? From what regions are your's from

[Occiput in Starlight]

This means your ancestors most likley originated from the balkans " congratz", if you want it more detalied you have to take dna test on FTDNA or somthing similar to get your haplogroup sub bransch and it will be easier to pin point your ancestory.
How far back do you know your ancestory? From what regions are your's from

All known family are Serbs except for one Italian cameoist in my father's mother's Serbian Dalmatian side.

Father's paternal side is from Homolje ( Vlach Country!). His mother is Dalmatian Serb.

Mama's side are all Belgraders (so former Herzegovinians/Montenegrins).

I know I cannot deduce anything much regarding me by learning about E-V13.

Having read a little about it since engaging with my bro's dna results, I just find it interesting.

[Occiput in Starlight]

All known family are Serbs except for one Italian cameoist in my father's mother's Serbian Dalmatian side.

Father's paternal side is from Homolje ( Vlach Country!). His mother is Dalmatian Serb.

Mama's side are all Belgraders (so former Herzegovinians/Montenegrins).

I know I cannot deduce anything much regarding me by learning about E-V13.

Having read a little about it since engaging with my bro's dna results, I just find it interesting.

When I mentioned Homolje I meant where tata's paternal side is from originally. My paternal grandfather settled in Pozarevac.

Not that that makes any difference.

--

But the reason I have a Vlach fetish is because I associate Vlachs with Eastern Serbia and my father is from Eastern Serbia and I love my father.

[Occiput in Starlight]

The only tangible connection my family has with Vlachs is that a Vlach man helped raise my father.

Dad remembers that man very fondly.

[Mortimer]

Some say it is black african in origin

[MandM]

When I mentioned Homolje I meant where tata's paternal side is from originally. My paternal grandfather settled in Pozarevac.

Not that that makes any difference.

--

But the reason I have a Vlach fetish is because I associate Vlachs with Eastern Serbia and my father is from Eastern Serbia and I love my father.

Well you never know, maby you have vlach ancestry, if your father is from there, but o have a friend who also is from there city of Bor, but his ancestors are from, Kosovo, then you have people from Montenegro who also migrated there, but yeah there is still chanse for you to have Vlach ancestry :D

[Occiput in Starlight]

Well you never know, maby you have vlach ancestry, if your father is from there, but o have a friend who also is from there city of Bor, but his ancestors are from, Kosovo, then you have people from Montenegro who also migrated there, but yeah there is still chanse for you to have Vlach ancestry :D

Zagubica. I just remembered. Paternal grandfather's family was from Zagubica.

You raise all good points.

I can only keep my fingers crossed.

[Occiput in Starlight]

@ Milenko

I only just saw that you are E-V13 from the info under your avatar.

I use TA on a mobile phone so everything on my screen is tiny and squished down.

[MandM]

@ Milenko

I only just saw that you are E-V13 from the info under your avatar.

I use TA on a mobile phone so everything on my screen is tiny and squished down.

Yes! i did my test on FamilyTreeDna its called Big Y700.
it is expensive, but it is worth it if you are really interested in this kind of thing

[CommonSense]

From last year's Southern Arc paper the majority of the showcased Thracian samples were E-V13 and likewise the haplogroup was dominant among people who showed "Balkan Iron Age" autosomal admixture in an earlier study which analyzed samples from Viminacium and other nearby Roman sites. Everything so far indicates that the spread of this haplogroup started from the east of the peninsula.

As for E-V13 in Pannonia, you might find this (https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1791.msg186972#msg186972) discussion in Serbian to be worth reading.

[Occiput in Starlight]

From last year's Southern Arc paper the majority of the showcased Thracian samples were E-V13 and likewise the haplogroup was dominant among people who showed "Balkan Iron Age" autosomal admixture in an earlier study which analyzed samples from Viminacium and other nearby Roman sites. Everything so far indicates that the spread of this haplogroup started from the east of the peninsula.

As for E-V13 in Pannonia, you might find this (https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1791.msg186972#msg186972) discussion in Serbian to be worth reading.

My brother is partial to Thracians. He will enjoy your post when I forward it to him.

Milenko tuned me in to the genetic section of porekloRS. So much good stuff there.

[hazmatnik]

E-V13 origins are still pretty obscure. Regarding Balkans, richest archeological site with E-V13 is thracian Kapitan Andreevo in Bulgaria.
Regarding later findings, Avar graves in Hungary were rich in E-V13 (my subclade has three representatives from SE Hungary). Most of these E-V13 have some sort of S Europe autosomal profiles, which could provide some clues.
What appears as most likely is that different E-V13 subclades spread in different waves with different people.
But, based on autosomal matches it appears (at least in my case) it can be associated with Vlachs and/or Albanians.

[Occiput in Starlight]

E-V13 origins are still pretty obscure. Regarding Balkans, richest archeological site with E-V13 is thracian Kapitan Andreevo in Bulgaria.
Regarding later findings, Avar graves in Hungary were rich in E-V13 (my subclade has three representatives from SE Hungary). Most of these E-V13 have some sort of S Europe autosomal profiles, which could provide some clues.
What appears as most likely is that different E-V13 subclades spread in different waves with different people.
But, based on autosomal matches it appears (at least in my case) it can be associated with Vlachs and/or Albanians.

Thanks for posting, man.

Do you happen to know which clades are associated with which modern Balkan ethnoses?

[hazmatnik]

Thanks for posting, man.

Do you happen to know which clades are associated with which modern Balkan ethnoses?

My paternal and maternal clades are pretty obscure, but Kuci's and Vasojevic's are well profiled. You also have some profiled clades among Malesori (N Albanian) tribes too (Kelmendis for example).+

General opinion is that we were here when Slavs came. Samples from Viminacium will provide more insight once they are released (bunch of E-V13 found there).

[Kriptc06]

E-V13 always comes from Albanian overlords.

[hazmatnik]

Nope. My family has story of Albanian origins, yet zero Albanians in our subclade. We do have bunch of autosomal matches among Sicily Arbereshes tho. Which could suggest connection with Christian Albanians escaping to Sicily. Not with modern Muslims.

[Occiput in Starlight]

My paternal and maternal clades are pretty obscure, but Kuci's and Vasojevic's are well profiled. You also have some profiled clades among Malesori (N Albanian) tribes too (Kelmendis for example).+

General opinion is that we were here when Slavs came. Samples from Viminacium will provide more insight once they are released (bunch of E-V13 found there).




I think Bulgarian cameoists are most likely along my father's paternal line. Followed by Vlachs.

Along my sire's maternal line, I think Vlach cameoists are most likely.

Albanian cameoists are most likely along my mother's ancestry lines, I reckon.

But neither parent knows of any non Serb family members excepting one Croatian and one Italian.

[MandM]

My . Samples from Viminacium will provide more insight once they are released (bunch of E-V13 found there).

Do you know when they they will be released?

[hazmatnik]

Nope.