Proto Basque-Like sample from South France, 1911 BC

[J.S.]

https://i.imgur.com/phrDp8R.png
https://i.imgur.com/FM7SyLq.png
https://i.imgur.com/vDfqjgK.png
https://i.imgur.com/odu2EOR.png
https://i.imgur.com/i68O1eP.png
https://i.imgur.com/ThGjlVU.png

FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911_ _Cov_63.40%,0.129758,0.147252,0.062602,0.016473,0. 054779,0.004462,-0.00094,0.005077,0.026179,0.039181,0.003735,0.0190 33,-0.026313,-0.021607,0.013165,0.006364,0.007171,-0.006081,0.00729,0.000625,0.013351,0.00643,-0.009244,-0.004458,0.000599

Is it just random similarity?

[RyoHazuki]

No, it seems genetically continuous with Southern French and East Iberians.

[Flashball]

No, it seems genetically continuous with Southern French and East Iberians.

This sample don't clust with East Iberians at all.
Just a stricto Basque-like sample.

[RyoHazuki]

This sample don't clust with East Iberians at all.
Just a stricto Basque-like sample.

Are East Iberians and Basques not closest to one another? From what I understand, genetic clustering in Iberians works on an east-west cline

[Beowulf]

Are East Iberians and Basques not closest to one another? From what I understand, genetic clustering in Iberians works on an east-west cline

Not usually ut depends on wich east iberian population too maybe a North Aragonese is closest to a basque but basques are more isolated genetically so is neither closest to east or west iberians

[J.S.]

No, it seems genetically continuous with Southern French and East Iberians.

Could we test the continuity using qpAdm or some other academic tool?

[J.S.]

I need to tell why i opened the thread. I don'y understand how the Basque gene pool could be formed by the iron Age in Iberia when:

1) Iberia received Steppe DNA during the Bronze Age.

2) The oldest DF27 is from Narbonne, South France, close to the Basque area.

FRA_La_Clape_LN_EMBA:GBVPK__BC_2386__Cov_58.17%,0. 126344,0.148267,0.054682,0.035207,0.043393,-0.001116,0.00235,0.009923,0.024543,0.021868,-0.004709,0.006145,-0.013231,-0.017478,0.009636,0.013392,0.004433,0.003041,0.002 263,-0.004127,0.010357,0.001731,-0.007148,-0.000482,-0.003353

3)The F3 matrix from Isabel Alves's Study shows Modern Basque and North Iberian share more drift with Southern French BB low steppe than with Iberian BB.

4) There is, at least, one sample, still from south France, 1911BC, which comes out Proto Basque-like.

5) No Bronze or Iron Age sample from South France have been used to model Modern Basque gene pool.

[Zevoos]

I need to tell why i opened the thread. I don'y understand how the Basque gene pool could be formed by the iron Age in Iberia when:

1) Iberia received Steppe DNA during the Bronze Age.

2) The oldest DF27 is from Narbonne, South France, close to the Basque area.

FRA_La_Clape_LN_EMBA:GBVPK__BC_2386__Cov_58.17%,0. 126344,0.148267,0.054682,0.035207,0.043393,-0.001116,0.00235,0.009923,0.024543,0.021868,-0.004709,0.006145,-0.013231,-0.017478,0.009636,0.013392,0.004433,0.003041,0.002 263,-0.004127,0.010357,0.001731,-0.007148,-0.000482,-0.003353

3)The F3 matrix from Isabel Alves's Study shows Modern Basque and North Iberian share more drift with Southern French BB low steppe than with Iberian BB.

4) There is, at least, one sample, still from south France, 1911BC, which comes out Proto Basque-like.

5) No Bronze or Iron Age sample from South France have been used to model Modern Basque gene pool.

What's the problem exactly because it is very easy to understand. Basque just mean middle neolithic + steppe and most of Europe was like this until the Iron age albeit in different proportions. The Basque area, isolated in the southwest of the continent, was hard to reach by later incoming peoples so the oldest ancestries predominate.

[J.S.]

What's the problem exactly because it is very easy to understand. Basque just mean middle neolithic + steppe and most of Europe was like this until the Iron age albeit in different proportions. The Basque area, isolated in the southwest of the continent, was hard to reach by later incoming peoples so the oldest ancestries predominate.

Here is the problem:
1) How confident you are the Basque gene pool was formed by the Iron Age in Iberia when no samples from South West France ie Aquitaine was used in the model
2) Basque and North Spanish share more drift with South French BB low steppe as FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911 than Iberian BBC

3) How old is the oldest Iberian DF27? GPBPK is 2386 BC.

Again, is FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911 autosomal profil just random similarity or does it mean some kind of continuity/relatredness?

[Jingle Bell]

That sample its prob a result of French beakers with migrated south and get less steppe mixing with Pyrenean/Iberian Farmers
Basques are dont change since the introducion of steppe in Iberia (CA - BA)

[J.S.]

That sample its prob a result of French beakers with migrated south and get less steppe mixing with Pyrenean/Iberian Farmers
Basques are dont change since the introducion of steppe in Iberia (CA - BA)

I am looking for someone skilled enough to test some kind of continuity/relatedness with academic tools such as qpAdm etc...

[Nausevar]

Basques are a mystery to me.
Here are my perplexities:
1) they are westerner than portuguese and galicians.
2) they have the highest percentage of R1b. R1b is a indoeuropean haplogroup. Indoeuropeans were eastern shifted.
3) basque country is not that isolated and it has a good temperate climate. Why is it so different? At least Sardinia is an island.

[gixajo]

Basques are a mystery to me.
Here are my perplexities:
1) they are westerner than portuguese and galicians.
2) they have the highest percentage of R1b. R1b is a indoeuropean haplogroup. Indoeuropeans were eastern shifted.
3) basque country is not that isolated and it has a good temperate climate. Why is it so different? At least Sardinia is an island.

In my opinion, putting together both main theories that already exist about the Basques and that could seem contradictory between them (Basque-Iberism and late Basqueization that include Aquitanians input during late-Roman/early medieval Age), it is possible to explain practically everything. It would only be necessary to carry out the genetic tests of old opportune samples, but it seems that it is not entirely interesting to reveal the "mystery" that has always existed about this issue.

Even privileges that lasted until relatively recently, such as the "vizcainía" granted by the nobility (low nobility/hidalguía) for any born in the Basque Country, and severely restricted the settlement of people from outside the Basque Country in the Basque Country, which lasted until the end of the 18th century, helped to preserve the " Basque specificity" until (almost) our days.

[J.S.]

In my opinion, putting together both main theories that already exist about the Basques and that could seem contradictory between them (Basque-Iberism and late Basqueization that include Aquitanians input during late-Roman/early medieval Age), it is possible to explain practically everything. It would only be necessary to carry out the genetic tests of old opportune samples, but it seems that it is not entirely interesting to reveal the "mystery" that has always existed about this issue.

Even privileges that lasted until relatively recently, such as the "vizcainía" granted by the nobility (low nobility/hidalguía) for any born in the Basque Country, and severely restricted the settlement of people from outside the Basque Country in the Basque Country, which lasted until the end of the 18th century, helped to preserve the " Basque specificity" until (almost) our days.

Ok, but what do you think about FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911. ..random similarity or not?

[J.S.]

Basques are a mystery to me.
Here are my perplexities:
1) they are westerner than portuguese and galicians.
2) they have the highest percentage of R1b. R1b is a indoeuropean haplogroup. Indoeuropeans were eastern shifted.
3) basque country is not that isolated and it has a good temperate climate. Why is it so different? At least Sardinia is an island.

No Bronze or Iron Age sample from South France has been used to model Basque people. People forget the oldest DF27 to date is from South France and that the migration waves went through France before going to Spain.

[Nausevar]

The only explanation I can imagine is that ancient Iberian women were so western shifted that the offspring they had with indoeuropean men were still the most genetically western people in the world.

[gixajo]

Ok, but what do you think about FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911. ..random similarity or not?

I don't know exactly what to say, but I know about the discussions that these samples sparked in other genetics forum when those refrences were posted.

Actually 2 more samples of that serie are quite similar and from the same times and they are not labelled as "outlier".

https://i.postimg.cc/2S9cjxBt/la-clape.png (https://postimages.org/)

What is your opinion about all this?

[Zevoos]

Here is the problem:
1) How confident you are the Basque gene pool was formed by the Iron Age in Iberia when no samples from South West France ie Aquitaine was used in the model
2) Basque and North Spanish share more drift with South French BB low steppe as FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911 than Iberian BBC

3) How old is the oldest Iberian DF27? GPBPK is 2386 BC.

Again, is FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF__BC_1911 autosomal profil just random similarity or does it mean some kind of continuity/relatredness?

I seriously don't see where the confusion is. Take a sample from let's say 3000 BC Poland with a Corded Ware father and a Globular Amphora mother and the profile will be Basque-like. I think you fail to understand that Basques aren't a recent creation or recent migrants into the region but relics of the oldest ancestries in Europe.

[J.S.]

I don't know exactly what to say, but I know about the discussions that these samples sparked in other genetics forum when those refrences were posted.

Actually 2 more samples of that serie are quite similar and from the same times and they are not labelled as "outlier".

https://i.postimg.cc/2S9cjxBt/la-clape.png (https://postimages.org/)

What is your opinion about all this?
GBVPK is the oldest DF27 one.
GBVPO and FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF

All three of them are from Narbonne area, very close to Franch Gasconia. My theorie is Basque gene pool comes from South French BB low steppe but, as i can't use academic tools, i can't prove it.

[gixajo]

GBVPK is the oldest DF27 one.
GBVPO and FRA_La_Clape_LN_EBA_Veraza_oSteppe:TORTF

All three of them are from Narbonne area, very close to Franch Gasconia. My theorie is Basque gene pool comes from South French BB low steppe but, as i can't use academic tools, i can't prove it.

I think your theory is plausible, but as you say, hard to prove with the data we have right now.

[J.S.]

https://i.imgur.com/VAwGh52.png
https://i.imgur.com/JdfNZxo.png
https://i.imgur.com/t82YRKh.png
https://i.imgur.com/kTaWwcW.png

[Petalpusher]

No Bronze or Iron Age sample from South France has been used to model Basque people. People forget the oldest DF27 to date is from South France and that the migration waves went through France before going to Spain.

Imo they are just a middle late neolithic population that went into a refuge near the Pyrenees after they saw the first migrations of IE. They got a bit of steppe initially and got into isolation. Result, Y founding effect and low steppe but high WHG, as well as no NA/IBRM, which is a clue they didn't come from Iberia intially. SW France is the same with more Steppe as they took the following waves (but still less than elsewhere). I think it makes sense with the pca above, they are FR LN-EBA.

[J.S.]

BINGO!

https://i.imgur.com/eyfdOV3.png




ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.103678,0.1494594,-0.0242505,-0.0582523,0.0040877,-0.020541,-0.0008889,-0.0052071,0.0008314,0.0195507,0.0034772,0.0027366,-0.0037165,-0.0013911,-0.0080222,-0.0016862,0.0037528,0.0005591,0.0010548,-0.0031564,-0.0024657,0.0020026,-0.0008307,-0.0003589,0.0005207

GAUL_OCCITAN_like_averge,0.1293316,0.1452205,0.058 9722,0.0133641,0.0524711,0.0047759,-0.0024676,-0.0013269,0.0253866,0.0366295,-0.0046281,0.0080554,-0.0235071,-0.0139688,0.0110104,0.0048062,-0.0004726,0.003769,0.0011,-0.0052212,0.007674,0.0027046,-0.0071638,-0.0083746,0.0008984

Iberia_North_IA,0.125205,0.1431895,0.065053,0.0114 665,0.058011,0.003347,-0.0034075,0.0045,0.026077,0.034989,-0.002192,0.0088425,-0.0169475,-0.0085325,0.0107215,6.65e-05,-0.008279,0.0008865,-0.000126,-0.00075,0.0082355,0.0023495,-0.0070865,-0.0118085,-0.0061075

[Flashball]

BINGO!

https://i.imgur.com/eyfdOV3.png

Good model