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KrashNick
06-09-2023, 04:09 PM
Preprint on a new Albanian paper out:

“Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians”

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1



Abstract

The origins of the Albanian people have vexed linguists and historians for centuries, as Albanians first appear in the historical record in the 11th century CE, while their language is one of the most enigmatic branches of the Indo-European family. To identify the populations that contributed to the ancestry of Albanians, we undertake a genomic transect of the Balkans over the last 8000 years, where we analyse more than 6000 previously published ancient genomes using state-of-the-art bioinformatics tools and algorithms that quantify spatiotemporal human mobility. We find that modern Albanians descend from Roman era western Balkan populations, with additional admixture from Slavic-related groups. Remarkably, Albanian paternal ancestry shows continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations, including those known as Illyrians. Our results provide an unprecedented understanding of the historical and demographic processes that led to the formation of modern Albanians and help locate the area where the Albanian language developed.

Voskos
06-09-2023, 09:59 PM
list of Ancient european dna samples that share a high number of IBD segments with ancient Illyrians (ALB_Cinamak_Anc). I took the list from the study Supplements. Nothing too surprising.

Macedonia_IA
Czech_EBA_Unetice_brother.I14185
Montenegro_MLBA
Czech_EBA_Unetice_brother.I14185
Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros
Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
Hungary_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
Croatia_MBA
Croatia_MBA
Czech_BellBeaker
Italy_IA_Republic_o.SG
Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
Russia_Afanasievo_son.I10565
Ireland_Kilteasheen_AngloSaxon_EMedieval_Norman
Czech_CordedWare
Ireland_MN.SG
Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG_father.or.son.pcw04 0.SG
Poland_Southeast_CordedWare.SG
Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
Czech_CordedWare


Turkey_C
Czech_EBA_Unetice_brother.I14185
Czech_EBA_Unetice
Germany_CordedWare
Czech_EBA_Unetice
Hungary_IA_LaTene
Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker
Croatia_MBA
Croatia_MBA
Netherlands_BellBeaker
Czech_EBA_Unetice
Croatia_Mursa_Roman.SG
Hungary_MBA_Vatya.SG


Czech_N_GlobularAmphora
Macedonia_IA
Macedonia_IA
Mongolia_EBA_Chemurchek_2
Montenegro_MLBA
Montenegro_MLBA
Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
Bulgaria_EIA
England_BellBeaker_lowEEF
Spain_EBA_oNorthEurope_1d.rel.I4560
Croatia_MBA
Croatia_EIA
Poland_CordedWare_3.SG
Lebanon_Roman.SG
Italy_Sardinia_EBA_Nuragic_mother.SUC003
Ukraine_EBA_Yamnaya
Russia_MBA_Poltavka
Russia_Afanasievo
Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros.SG
Italy_IA_Republic.SG
Italy_TarquiniaMonterozzi_IA.SG
Croatia_SisakPogorelec_Roman.SG


Germany_Lech_BellBeaker_possible.contam
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Czech_EBA_Unetice
England_EIA
Czech_CordedWare
Czech_LBA_Knoviz
Ukraine_N
Kazakhstan_MLBA_Karagash
Pakistan_SaiduSharif_H
England_MBA
Czech_EBA_Unetice_sister.PDA002
Czech_EBA_Unetice_father.or.son.PDA002

Tenn
06-09-2023, 10:39 PM
Here some more from the study:



“Haplogroup J2b-Z600 branched off its parent lineage J2b-L283 around 3500-3000 BCE (77, 78). Current sampling suggests that J2b-Z600 was absent from the European Neolithic-Chalcolithic (Fig. 8), as it appears abruptly on the aDNA record in the Serbian Bronze Age (2100-1800 BCE) in a Maros cultural context, alongside the parent subclade of R1b-BY611 (Fig. S9) (5, 79). This places two of the most frequent paternal lineages of the Albanians (Fig. S9) in the Central-West Balkans by the EBA (Figs. 8-9, S9). Haplogroup J2b-Z600 experienced a major founder effect and diversification in the ancient populations of the Adriatic coast (Albania, Croatia, Montenegro), where it accounts for 50-70% of all paternal lineages during the BA-IA (Figs. 8-9), and has been found in samples associated with major West Balkan archaeological cultural expressions, most notably in Maros, Cetina, Japodian and Liburnian contexts (Tables S23-S24, S28) (5, 79). Coupled with its remarkably local distribution in pre-Roman times (Fig. S10), J2b-Z600 may represent a reliable indicator of ultimate Bronze Age-Iron Age West Balkan paternal ancestry. The distributional expansion of J2b-Z600 in northern and western Europe in Roman and post-Roman times (Figs. 8-9, S10) is not surprising, as the West Balkans supplied the Empire with mercenaries, soldiers, and Emperors for centuries (7–9). Within an Albanian context, J2b-Z600 subclades found in BA-IA, Roman and Medieval Albania (Bardhoc, Ēinamak), Montenegro (Doclea, Velika Gruda), and Southern Croatia (Gardun, Gudnja cave), have daughter or sister lineages in modern Albanians (Table S34), suggesting significant paternal continuity from ancient south-west Balkan populations identified as “Illyrians” by classical authors (Fig. S11). aDNA samples from Roman Serbia (Sviloš, Viminacium) and Late Avar-Medieval Hungary (Alattyįn, Sįrrétudvari) belong to J2b-Z600 lineages related to those of modern Albanians (Table S34), indicating an ultimately south-west Balkan paternal origin for these individuals, which corroborates inscriptional and historical evidence for transplantations of “Illyrian” soldiers along the Limes (8, 9).”


Samples from Roman Serbia are related to some of the Albanian J-L283. Viminacium was north of the Nish area. A Roman military camp. Probably Illyrians that were stationed there as soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viminacium

Tenn
06-09-2023, 10:39 PM
Wonder about E-V13 though. Maybe a Thracian origin ?

Tenn
06-09-2023, 11:03 PM
It has been previously demonstrated (3, 16) that during Imperial Roman times, or perhaps even the
preceding Hellenistic era, as we show here (Fig. 4B), large-scale westward immigration from the
Eastern provinces took place, which transformed the genetic landscape of the Empire (59). This
demographic shift also took place in the Balkans (3), as can be seen in the PCA of Roman and
Post-Roman samples (Fig. 5), where virtually all local populations are shifted from their Bronze
Age and Iron Age position towards the Eastern Mediterranean, forming a cluster along what we
term as the Anatolian cline (Fig. 5A).




They also mention this + Slavic .

Tenn
06-09-2023, 11:06 PM
When it comes to the origin of the Albanians. I agree with the Albanian historian Selami Pulaha, who stated that the formation of the Albanians was in the Balkan interior in Dardania , Nish-Ulpiana-Shkup-Shtip area, or at least it was definitely spoken there before the arrival of the Slavs as supported also by many historians who still support a west balkan origin. There are indications that movements from the Balkan interior into the west balkans occurred but also the other way around.

But toponyms like Shkoder-Lezha-Mat-Ulqin-Drisht-Shkumbin etc weren't taken from Slavs either and indicates an Albanian presence there since the Roman period in modern Albania/Montenegro at least also. Then you have the name 'Albanoi' which came from an Illyrian tribe in North-Central Albania. This name became spread as far as Nish-Shkup etc before the slavic migrations. From this name came 'Arbanon' and the medieval Albanian name Arbereshe, Arbanas, Arbanashka etc and the Turkish Arnaut and Greek Arvanite

cass
06-09-2023, 11:07 PM
Here some more from the study:



Samples from Roman Serbia are related to some of the Albanian J-L283. Viminacium was north of the Nish area. A Roman military camp. Probably Illyrians that were stationed there as soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viminacium

https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/06/09/KoOj2.png (https://imgtr.ee/i/KoOj2)
Viminacium looks like modern Serbs



Distance to: SRB_Viminacium
0.01615857 Moldovan
0.01717127 Montenegrin
0.01756452 Romanian
0.01774867 Serbian
0.02179233 Macedonian
0.02297448 Bulgarian
0.02427744 Bosnian
0.03045517 Croatian
0.03083952 Gagauz
0.03358497 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace
0.03489923 Hungarian
0.03500216 Italian_Northeast
0.03555073 Slovenian
0.03567993 Austrian
0.04248075 German_Erlangen
0.04249087 French_Alsace
0.04343154 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04397128 Turkish_Deliorman
0.04505684 Swiss_German
0.04592684 French_Provence
0.04593547 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04599837 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.04615448 Rumelia_East
0.04684367 French_Nord
0.04722716 Italian_Veneto


Distance to: SRB_Sirmium
0.01093631 Slovenian
0.01462224 Croatian
0.01534239 Hungarian
0.02003910 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02197660 Czech
0.02260925 Austrian
0.02445567 Bosnian
0.02448257 German_East
0.02492894 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02668701 German_Erlangen
0.02961826 Slovakian
0.02974906 Moldovan
0.03176443 Polish_Silesian
0.03270682 Moldovan_o
0.03341439 Serbian
0.03366085 German
0.03375546 German_Hamburg
0.03437839 Polish
0.03553326 Montenegrin
0.03853594 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04060594 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04062290 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04131214 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04133454 Russian_Belgorod
0.04219445 French_Alsace

Varda
06-09-2023, 11:10 PM
Wonder about E-V13 though. Maybe a Thracian origin ?

For sure https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/becko-berlinska-skola-vs-novoromanticari-ii.950089/page-99#post-47061304

cass
06-09-2023, 11:41 PM
https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/06/09/KoFGn.png

The Illyrians of today's Albania look like modern Northern Italians

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:09 AM
https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/06/09/KoOj2.png (https://imgtr.ee/i/KoOj2)
Viminacium looks like modern Serbs



Distance to: SRB_Viminacium
0.01615857 Moldovan
0.01717127 Montenegrin
0.01756452 Romanian
0.01774867 Serbian
0.02179233 Macedonian
0.02297448 Bulgarian
0.02427744 Bosnian
0.03045517 Croatian
0.03083952 Gagauz
0.03358497 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace
0.03489923 Hungarian
0.03500216 Italian_Northeast
0.03555073 Slovenian
0.03567993 Austrian
0.04248075 German_Erlangen
0.04249087 French_Alsace
0.04343154 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04397128 Turkish_Deliorman
0.04505684 Swiss_German
0.04592684 French_Provence
0.04593547 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04599837 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.04615448 Rumelia_East
0.04684367 French_Nord
0.04722716 Italian_Veneto


Distance to: SRB_Sirmium
0.01093631 Slovenian
0.01462224 Croatian
0.01534239 Hungarian
0.02003910 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02197660 Czech
0.02260925 Austrian
0.02445567 Bosnian
0.02448257 German_East
0.02492894 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02668701 German_Erlangen
0.02961826 Slovakian
0.02974906 Moldovan
0.03176443 Polish_Silesian
0.03270682 Moldovan_o
0.03341439 Serbian
0.03366085 German
0.03375546 German_Hamburg
0.03437839 Polish
0.03553326 Montenegrin
0.03853594 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04060594 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04062290 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04131214 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04133454 Russian_Belgorod
0.04219445 French_Alsace

We are talking about Y-DNA and not autosomal. And As far as I know most of the samples in the Roman Balkans are Southern European and not like that. There were some Slavs that migrated there too during those periods so you'll find samples like that.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:11 AM
[img]https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/06/09/KoFGn.png[g]

The Illyrians of today's Albania look like modern Northern Italians

And this is something that was already mentioned in the study which I already posted above:



It has been previously demonstrated (3, 16) that during Imperial Roman times, or perhaps even the
preceding Hellenistic era, as we show here (Fig. 4B), large-scale westward immigration from the
Eastern provinces took place, which transformed the genetic landscape of the Empire (59). This
demographic shift also took place in the Balkans (3), as can be seen in the PCA of Roman and
Post-Roman samples (Fig. 5), where virtually all local populations are shifted from their Bronze
Age and Iron Age position towards the Eastern Mediterranean, forming a cluster along what we
term as the Anatolian cline (Fig. 5A)




This is something that occurred in Italy and Iberia too. Where samples from the BA/IA are positioned more west compared to later.




Most samples from the Roman or Ancient Balkans weren't Slavic like or those samples you posted.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:21 AM
For sure https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/becko-berlinska-skola-vs-novoromanticari-ii.950089/page-99#post-47061304

Yes, Thracians/Dacians were one of the most numerous people. Not just Bulgaria, but Romania, South/Eastern Serbia should be filled with E-V13 too at one point.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:30 AM
The Roman Serbia/Viminacium J-L283 is closest to modern Albanians actually according to this and not like Slavs:

Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9669__AD_218__Cov_45.08%
0.03123462 Albania
0.03186722 Italy
0.03687953 North_Macedonia
0.04360138 Switzerland
0.04570601 Bulgaria
0.04598504 Romania
0.04818736 Greece
0.05392115 Montenegro
0.05525342 Portugal
0.05658336 Spain
0.05685040 Serbia
0.06025976 France
0.06470566 Israel
0.06933916 Belgium
0.06981621 Bosnia
0.07244069 Moldova
0.07602715 Austria
0.07722999 Croatia
0.07807682 Slovenia
0.07874546 Hungary
0.08590440 Germany
0.08874526 Holland
0.08915841 Wales
0.08986794 England
0.09031502 Czech_Republic


https://www.exploreyourdna.com/calculateur/148/g25-world-countries-calculator-k105.htm




It also happens to be related to the J2b2-L283 Albanian clade actually which was also already mentioned.



Viminacium was a military station so people from different parts of the empire migrated to these areas.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:39 AM
And this is another J-L283 from Serbia, Sviloš-Kruševlje, Roman era:

Distance to: SRB_Svilos_Krusevlje:R6693__AD_275__Cov_38.61%
0.03155180 Italy
0.03687644 Albania
0.04576476 North_Macedonia
0.04688701 Greece
0.05096869 Switzerland
0.05295750 Bulgaria
0.05373523 Romania
0.05599892 Portugal
0.05811132 Spain
0.06234199 Israel
0.06400588 Montenegro
0.06531657 Serbia
0.06552219 France
0.07700822 Belgium
0.07815981 Bosnia
0.08115334 Moldova
0.08397065 Austria
0.08510656 Croatia
0.08558160 Slovenia
0.08818579 Hungary
0.09434206 Germany
0.09526064 Cyprus
0.09775143 Wales
0.09775523 England
0.09793588 Holland



Both Viminacium and this location are geographically very north but even here the profiles are southern like, like most samples in Croatia and Slovenia and even Hungary.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 12:51 AM
The J-L283 sample from Roman Montenegro is very southern and plots more east compared to the Iron Age/Bronze Age but the Y-DNA are the same:

Distance to: MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481__AD_251__Cov_54.68%
0.03083187 Italy
0.03805627 Greece
0.04238366 Albania
0.05329930 Israel
0.05434291 North_Macedonia
0.06291354 Bulgaria
0.06630461 Switzerland
0.06651831 Romania
0.06739926 Portugal
0.06977073 Spain
0.07812327 Montenegro
0.07872096 Serbia
0.07996494 France
0.08179061 Cyprus
0.09278124 Bosnia
0.09290467 Belgium
0.09519785 Moldova
0.09836654 Turkey
0.09925124 Lebanon
0.10003171 Austria
0.10017416 Croatia
0.10070555 Slovenia
0.10317303 Hungary
0.10402802 Armenia
0.11058408 Germany





It plots in fact more south than modern Albanians, so a north/east shift is expected in Albanians due to also slavic ancestry. Regarding the Albanian language, it was according to linguists per today spoken in modern Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montengero area during the Roman period.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 10:55 AM
https://imgtr.ee/images/2023/06/09/KoFGn.png

The Illyrians of today's Albania look like modern Northern Italians

I already added these samples plenty of times onto PCA Maps with Albanians and Ancient samples from Macedonia, and Albanians just plot east of these samples. I used much more samples than you, not limited Davidski set.


https://i.ibb.co/1XjH3Qq/Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-3.png

The Illyrians of todays Albania have nothing to do with Northern Italians. Northern Italians did not plot where Illyrians from Albania plot during the Bronze Age. The autosomal profile of native Balkan people was shifted more to the east during the Roman period which is what the paper mentions while retaining also high % of Bronze Age / Iron Age male lineages like J-L283, R1b, E-V13 + some Slavic ancestry was introduced later.



Nobody is going to plot with IA/BA samples unless you come from some isolated population, doesn't take a genius to figure this all out.


Viminacium and Roman Balkans do not plot like Serbs or Slavs. You don't even know what you're talking about. You're just cherrypicking samples of settlers that aren't native to the area or Slavic/Germanic mix. And we are talking about Y-DNA lineages.



Jesus, another delusional Polish clown.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 11:05 AM
For sure https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/becko-berlinska-skola-vs-novoromanticari-ii.950089/page-99#post-47061304

Your theory of E-V13 Bulgarian origin does not explain why Nish is considered an Albanian toponym and why your own sources mention Albanians there and why you still use Albanian placenames there .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanaška_Mountain


I already showed this too. Your own sources mention Albanians in Kosove and Macedonia too. E-V13 was certainly more widespread than just Bulgaria.

cass
06-10-2023, 11:40 AM
The distances of Viminacium sampes are what they are.

Why make an ideology out of it?

Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9674 AD_134
0.04400440 French_Nord:N_35
0.04637900 French_Alsace:A_27
0.04707077 Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2
0.04720855 Bulgarian:BulgarianF2
0.04731133 Moldovan:44618758061C01
0.04741744 Montenegrin:Montenegro5
0.04743108 Moldovan:44618757481C02
0.04765232 German_Erlangen:GSM1658663
0.04776745 Romanian:A374
0.04809954 German:German5
0.04883644 Moldovan:44618757251C01
0.04885871 Moldovan:44618757802C01
0.04945754 German:German2
0.04948851 Austrian:Austria3
0.04952257 Moldovan:44618757461C02
0.04974531 Moldovan:44618757471C01
0.04990632 German:German43
0.04990777 German_Erlangen:GSM1658653
0.04993024 Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad1
0.04994333 Afrikaner:AFR014
0.04999948 German_Erlangen:GSM1658647
0.05007798 Moldovan:44618758062C02
0.05018495 Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Silistre2
0.05018808 French_Nord:N_45
0.05030581 Hungarian:NA15201


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9673 AD_146
0.02471719 Russian_Pskov:Rps-006
0.02674436 Latvian:latvian54F2
0.02857177 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600075
0.03098458 Russian_Tver:RUS_Tver415
0.03122657 Estonian:Est400
0.03192517 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-471
0.03196476 Russian_Orel:russianOrjol78
0.03206684 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-502
0.03212901 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-439
0.03307107 Belarusian:Belarusian7
0.03311071 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-483
0.03433340 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600094
0.03441261 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-1366
0.03444717 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-603
0.03453511 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-325
0.03485951 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600088
0.03492252 Russian_Pskov:Rps-090
0.03525892 Polish:Polish1
0.03534056 Belarusian:Belarusian5
0.03548532 Russian_Kaluga:Rkbo-12
0.03573403 Russian_Smolensk:Rsm-179
0.03588546 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-139
0.03594562 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-345
0.03621561 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-173
0.03624336 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-1034


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R9669 AD_220
0.02746699 Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.02920115 Albanian:AL9
0.02979942 Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.03106431 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.03130300 Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.03152631 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.03183193 Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61
0.03207696 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152
0.03212953 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149
0.03215789 Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian2
0.03226892 Greek_Macedonia:675
0.03236504 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
0.03261687 Macedonian:Macedonian8
0.03339162 Albanian:AL12
0.03357370 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
0.03364599 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.03375319 Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.03384784 Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont154
0.03394130 Italian_Umbria:PG04
0.03395382 French_Provence:S_34
0.03476827 Italian_Marche:MarABU050D
0.03478436 French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
0.03491830 Italian_Tuscany:VO65
0.03494240 Italian_Marche:MarADC050D
0.03508364 Italian_Veneto:ALP022


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6759 AD_150
0.03143427 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1123
0.03145702 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-645
0.03176743 Latvian:latvian54A2
0.03301615 Latvian:latvian58C6
0.03378947 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-885
0.03443443 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-661
0.03458186 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-667
0.03494807 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1127
0.03502097 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-935
0.03524800 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-965
0.03563374 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-64
0.03577080 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-102
0.03705412 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-26
0.03745235 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-597
0.03749752 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-1112
0.03789801 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-325
0.03803060 Estonian:Est377
0.03839879 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-1034
0.03872515 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-1079
0.03897523 Lithuanian_SZ:LTG-918
0.03898189 Lithuanian_VA:LTG-502
0.03940867 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-225
0.03969036 Latvian:latvian54F2
0.03969431 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-895
0.03998292 Lithuanian_RA:LTG-139


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6756 AD_180
0.03975386 Italian_Lazio:PG28
0.04159889 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
0.04287372 Albanian:ALB212
0.04366491 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
0.04383309 Italian_Apulia:cera9
0.04390665 Greek_Laconia:640
0.04394893 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.04423422 French_Corsica:corsica29008
0.04473054 Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna58
0.04485967 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k
0.04538827 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
0.04564432 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
0.04577046 Greek_Peloponnese:621
0.04592054 Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
0.04601282 Greek_Peloponnese:630
0.04602393 Italian_Basilicata:PG22
0.04612600 Italian_Umbria:PG05
0.04612624 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
0.04633703 Albanian:AL29
0.04644298 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
0.04651622 Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2
0.04664125 French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
0.04692737 Italian_Marche:MarABG010D
0.04710642 French_Corsica:Corsica29708
0.04715727 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R6750 AD_148
0.02299199 Druze:GS000016137
0.02539490 Karaite_Egypt:Karaite1
0.02603779 Lebanese_Druze:555
0.02616829 Lebanese_Druze:927
0.02777570 Cypriot:CYP19
0.02793624 Cypriot:CYP2
0.02835665 Druze:HGDP00561
0.02894536 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese8AS15
0.03002771 Lebanese_Druze:1271
0.03118385 Greek_Cappadocia:654
0.03150606 Lebanese_Druze:971
0.03160184 Druze:HGDP00560
0.03180780 Lebanese_Muslim:Lebanese20AR21
0.03199096 Lebanese_Druze:1056
0.03213451 Lebanese_Druze:981
0.03226387 Druze:GS000016136
0.03232151 Cypriot:Cyprus21AJ19
0.03249963 Lebanese_Druze:1247
0.03312178 Druze:HGDP00564
0.03353992 Samaritan:GSM537033
0.03379636 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese6AQ170
0.03398823 Iranian_Jew:IranianJew1556
0.03435969 Druze:GS000016135
0.03443652 Syrian:Ber16AG184
0.03464999 Druze:HGDP00558


Distance to: SRB_Viminacium:R3931 AD_180
0.03124873 Moldovan_o:Moldovan_V46055
0.03314738 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600096
0.03440126 Croatian:Croatia_Cro198
0.03462728 Hungarian:NA15207
0.03560152 German_Erlangen:GSM1658601
0.03602249 Moldovan:44618757471C02
0.03610105 Slovakian:Slovakia85
0.03618073 Polish:Polish28
0.03651693 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600097
0.03665766 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600062
0.03681730 Slovakian:Slovakia94
0.03692986 Slovakian:Slovakia96
0.03706113 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600076
0.03728661 Croatian:Croatia_Cro141
0.03743631 Croatian:Croatia_Cro26
0.03747420 Slovakian:Slovakia77
0.03748538 Ukrainian_Dnipro:EG600065
0.03816655 German_Erlangen:GSM1658661
0.03933811 German_Hamburg:GSM1031517
0.03949661 Austrian:Austria7
0.03950223 Ukrainian_Dnipro:EG600072
0.03956959 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600094
0.03959362 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600027
0.03962315 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600034
0.03978575 German_Erlangen:GSM1658634

If you have other samples, please post the coordinates.

Tenn
06-10-2023, 01:39 PM
So it turns out that the Illyrian sample from Roman Montenegro is close to one of the Albanian J-L283 too

R3481, ~266 CE, Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro: J-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z631>Z1043

Tenn
06-10-2023, 08:29 PM
Some more from the paper:



In contrast to neighbouring populations, the samples from Medieval South-Eastern (Shtikė, 889-989 calCE) and North-Eastern (Kėnetė, 773-885 calCE) Albania (hereafter Albania Mdv) experience only a minor shift on their PC position from the BA-IA to the Migration Period, hinting at largescale genetic continuity for over 2500-3000 years. This is reflected in the ancestry makeup of Albania Mdv, as in ultimate f4 qpAdm models they derive 17% of their ancestry from Iran N-like sources (2-5% in the BA-IA), while their IGHG ancestry increases only marginally (0-4% in BA-IA, 6% in Medieval times). Proximate qpAdm models comprising Balkan BA-IA sources and proxies for Anatolian-Levantine... The most strongly supported result was a two-way model where Albania Mdv derives 85% of their ancestry from BA-IA-Hellenistic Albania, and 15% from either the Anatolian or Levantine proxy, with equal support. To further resolve the observed ancestry patterns, we ran a second proximate model using Roman era West Balkan sources, together with a Slavic proxy (Russia Ingria IA), where we recovered Albania Mdv as either 100% Roman West Balkan, or 85% Roman West Balkan and 15% Slavic-related.




Furthermore, models using the Avar era outliers as the sole palaeo-Balkan source for Albania Mdv receive high support. However, it is unlikely that the Avar era outliers are realistic local sources due to the fact that such significant ancestry shifts would have pulled Albania Mdv samples towards the direction of southeastern Balkan populations on the PCA, which is not the case...

However, our qpAdm models cannot discriminate whether West palaeo-Balkan ancestry in Medieval Albania originated from indigenous populations or other incoming palaeo-Balkan groups from adjacent regions such as the northern Adriatic coast or the Balkan interior. Indeed, IBD-sharing suggests that the sample from Kėnetė shares small (10.5 cM) segments with BA and Roman individuals from neighbouring Velika Gruda in Montenegro and Zadar in Croatia, respectively. Conversely, the individual from Shtikė shares short segments (11-14.5 cM) with geographically distant Hun and Avar-era commoners from Hungary, suggesting that possible trade networks between Medieval Albania and the Avar Khaganate (based on archaeological artefacts) may have also involved genetic exchange.




In the Roman-Post-Roman PCA, individuals from post-Medieval Bardhoc cluster with the preceding Medieval samples from Kėnetė and Shtikė, except for one outlier who clusters with the Pazhok sample, both of which are pulled towards the Balto-Slavic cline, which was confirmed with f3-statistics... One-way models for Bardhoc PostMdv using Albania Mdv as a source receive very high statistical support, while two-way models with an additional low-level contribution from unadmixed (2%) or admixed (5-10%) Balto-Slavic-related sources are also feasible. However, a one-way f4 qpAdm model for the two Balto-Slavic-shifted outliers from Bardhoc and Pazhok is rejected, suggesting more complex ancestry in these individuals. These outliers are instead recovered as deriving their ancestry from a two-way mixture between a local source (Albania Mdv) and unadmixed (ca. 15%) or admixed (ca. 25-35%) Balto-Slavic-related groups. Heterogeneity in Slavic-related admixture also characterises the modern Albanian samples from Tirana, which ranges from 18-48%. It is likely that modern populations inhabiting areas in Albania that experienced little to no Slavic settlement in Medieval times, such as the south-west (Labėria) and the north (Malėsi e Madhe, Rrethi i Matit), will harbour less Balto-Slavic ancestry than the current modern Albanian samples...

We have shown that modern Albanians from Tirana derive 25-48% of their ancestry from a South Slavic-related source. This ancestry is two to three times higher than the frequency of South-Slavic-associated Y-chromosome haplogroups (R1a-M417, I2a-M423) in the modern Albanian population (15% combined), suggesting that Slavic-related admixture may have been largely female-mediated, as has been shown in 10th century Serbia.




Remarkably, all samples from post-Medieval Bardhoc share large IBD segments (10-70 cM) with the Medieval individuals from Kėnetė and Shtikė, despite the latter being situated 300 km to the south and having lived 500-700 years earlier. However, such a close relationship may be exaggerated by founder effects... We also observe IBD-sharing (9-13 cM) of the Bardhoc samples with a 17th-20th century CE individual from Roopkund lake in India who clusters with modern mainland Greeks. This finding suggests that a population related to Bardhoc may have been involved in the mass migrations of Albanian-speakers into Greece in the 14th-16th centuries CE.

Based on the findings from the PCA, the f4 qpAdm models, and IBD-sharing, we show that the population of Bardhoc PostMdv descends from earlier medieval groups from Albania, which in turn showed continuity with IA and Roman wea western Balkan individuals.




To obtain insights on the ethnogenesis of modern Albanians, we plot the mean Y-Full TMRCAs of Albanian-specific subclades of E-V13, J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611 and other palaeo-Balkan haplogroups (R1b-PF7562, I-M223). Remarkably, a majority of these haplogroups experience a sudden and steep increase in subclade diversity between 500-800 CE, which coincides with the timing proposed by linguistic and historical hypotheses on the origins of Albanians and their language, as well as IBD-sharing analyses. The low number of diversifying subclades prior to 500 CE is likely caused by missing data, probably due to a significant loss of diversity associated with the demographic turmoil of the Migration Period.

Unlike the abovementioned haplogroups, E-V13 exhibits continuous subclade diversification from the Bronze Age to the Roman period, suggesting that populations with a high frequency of E-V13 may have followed a different demographic trajectory from those with J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, and I-M223. The rate of E-V13 subclade diversification increased steeply from 500 CE onwards, following the pattern of other haplogroups found in modern Albanians. Based on the above, it is possible that currently unsampled populations from the Central-West Balkan interior that were characterised by high frequencies of E-V13 may have entered the region of modern Albania around 500 CE, where they merged and co-expanded with local groups...

Together with qpAdm and IBD data, the principal Y-chromosome haplogroups add further evidence for large-scale continuity of modern Albanians from local groups, without excluding the possibility of admixture with neighbouring palaeo-Balkan populations. Continuity is also mirrored in rarer lineages, such as haplogroup T-Y206597, found in the Medieval individual from Kėnetė, which today comprises almost exclusively Albanians.





However, in agreement with linguistic studies, we find that Albanians likely descend from a surviving West palaeo-Balkan population that experienced significant demographic increase approximately between 500-800 CE, perhaps after a population bottleneck. We show that in contrast to the rest of the Balkans, the Medieval samples from both North and South Albania experienced little to no contribution from surrounding Slavic populations and maintained high levels of BA-IA West Balkan ancestry. Remarkably, the same genetic profile persisted 500-800 years later in most of the post-Medieval samples from Bardhoc, as shown both by the PCA, qpAdm analyses, and IBD data, which indicate significant genetic continuity from the Medieval populations of Albania. However, qpAdm models cannot exclude the possibility of additional admixture with currently unsampled neighbouring late Roman-early Medieval palaeo-Balkan groups with a similar ancestry profile. Based on linguistic data, the area of modern Kosovo and southeastern Serbia may have been such a source.

Despite being largely unaffected by the demographic changes that took place during the Migration period, the historical Albanians did not emerge in isolation. At the peak of the Migration Period, the Medieval population of Albania displayed genetic links as far as Pannonia... Furthermore, two of the post-Medieval samples exhibit significant admixture with South Slavic populations, and modern Albanians display highly variable levels of Slavic ancestry. This indicates complex historical interactions with South Slavic populations, as suggested by toponymy and linguistics.



I don't think the last part has only to do with demographic increase but related to barbarian incursions, before these events Albanians show normal IBD sharing.

HannibaltheGreat
06-11-2023, 02:07 AM
There is no albanian Z600 -z25907. The only confirmed z600 (-z2509) clades found were me and A puerto rican.
The nuraghi sample and albanian samples were to poor quality to confirm.

Although this confirms what albanians have always said. They were pelasgians and the original illyrians.

Edit.
Oh yea. There is a brit that is also Basal Z600. But he is not the same lineage. Me and the PR dont have a common ancestor with him recent. Its thousands of years ago.

Tenn
06-11-2023, 07:34 PM
Here some more on E-V13:



It is therefore likely that the population
that introduced E-V13 into Albanians would plot close to Roman era West Balkan groups.
Remarkably, several E-V13 subclades found in Avar and Medieval era Hungary, as well as in one
of the Himera mercenaries, are characterized by sister or daughter branches that comprise almost
exclusively Albanians (Table S34).



E-V13 Himera mercenaries were from an IA/Ancient Greek army in Sicily. It plots just east of the J2b2-L283 and R1b Illyrians with a very similar profile.

Tenn
06-12-2023, 01:12 PM
The reason why I think you can't compare Albanians to samples from Albania only is because those samples only have J2b2 and R1b found among Albanians but they don't have E-V13, another major lineage. This lineage doesn't seem native there and it is possible it spread into Greece with Thracians also. Strabo wrote Macedonia was inhabited by Thracians.

Samples from North Macedonia plot between Thracian-Illyrian or so.

Hulu
06-12-2023, 01:37 PM
The reason why I think you can't compare Albanians to samples from Albania only is because those samples only have J2b2 and R1b found among Albanians but they don't have E-V13, another major lineage. This lineage doesn't seem native there and it is possible it spread into Greece with Thracians also. Strabo wrote Macedonia was inhabited by Thracians.

Samples from North Macedonia plot between Thracian-Illyrian or so.

Nonsense. Both my ev13 line and Hazmatis are Illyrian. Not Greek, not Thracian, not Roman.

Varda
06-12-2023, 03:38 PM
Nonsense. Both my ev13 line and Hazmatis are Illyrian. Not Greek, not Thracian, not Roman.

Only in your wet dreams. E-V13 was found in the large number of ancient samples from Thracian space as guy from the link down explained. In the tons of pre-Roman ancient samples from western Balkans there is no E-V13 at all. All 3 ancient E-V13 samples from western Balkans are from Roman period. Appearance of E-V13 in the Illyrian space match with Roman rule.


For sure https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/becko-berlinska-skola-vs-novoromanticari-ii.950089/page-99#post-47061304

Bonus, from the scientific work posted by KrashNick in OP.
Despite being one of the most frequent haplogroups in modern Balkan populations, the origins of E-V13 are enigmatic. The earliest record of this haplogroup among historically attested groups is in BA-IA Bulgaria, suggesting an association with the people known as "Thracians."

chinshen
06-12-2023, 03:42 PM
Which subclade of R1b is the most common among Albanians?

Hulu
06-12-2023, 04:03 PM
Only in your wet dreams. E-V13 was found in high amount of ancient samples from Thracian space as guy from the link down explained. In tons of pre-Roman ancient samples from western Balkans there is no E-V13 at all. All 3 ancient E-V13 samples from western Balkans are from Roman period. Appearance of E-V13 in the Illyrian space match with Roman rule.



Bonus, from the scientific work posted by KrashNick in OP.
Despite being one of the most frequent haplogroups in modern Balkan populations, the origins of E-V13 are enigmatic. The earliest record of this haplogroup among historically attested groups is in BA-IA Bulgaria, suggesting an association with the people known as "Thracians."

Cry me a river

https://i.ibb.co/z872Jv7/ydna.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/z872Jv7/ydna.jpg (https://ibb.co/5YnjFHn)

Jana
06-12-2023, 04:17 PM
I'm 45% Iron Age Illyrian, let's see how Albo members compare :P

https://i.imgur.com/jy21omy.png

rothaer
06-12-2023, 04:23 PM
Preprint on a new Albanian paper out:

“Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians”

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1

A good and enlightening paper.

If we use the Feiichy G25 ancient Slavic calculator 2.2 scaled to assess the Albanian samples from this paper that are in the current Davidski spreadsheet, then there are two medieval samples that score only "Balkan" and "Celtic-like". These are suitable for being - suggested by Feiichy - a new paleo Balkan reference, replacing the former "Balkan" reference that was represented by two samples from Novo_Selo_Bunje_R3547 and Velic_R3685. Here ALB_MA_I13839 was chosen.

The Feiichy G25 ancient Slavic calculator 2.3 scaled now has this source:


(Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08 1458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0 .004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001,0.129758,0.125 926,0.075424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0 .010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.127 957,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0. 014999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.0115 06,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011,0.125205,0.129 988,0.078818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0 .006692,0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
Celtic-like:AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11699___BC_350___Coverage_73. 92%,0.127482,0.152329,0.050534,0.005814,0.047701,0 .00251,0.004465,0.011307,0.02127,0.026606,-0.002598,0.006594,-0.009366,-0.004954,0.007736,-0.009149,-0.017602,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004627,0.000998,0.002349,-0.004067,-0.005543,-0.006347
Celtic-like:AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11701___BC_350___Coverage_74. 10%,0.126344,0.145221,0.039598,0.000646,0.038469,0 .000279,0.00188,0.006923,0.006954,0.018041,-0.003085,0.005845,-0.014717,0.004129,0.002579,-0.009679,-0.012386,0.007221,0.013575,-0.002876,0.000998,-0.004451,0.004067,-0.00253,-0.006586
Celtic-like:AUT_IA_La_Tene:I11708___BC_350___Coverage_70. 39%,0.134311,0.146236,0.049026,0.008075,0.043085,0 .007809,0.001175,-0.000231,0.017589,0.021868,0.002273,0.007194,-0.007284,-0.008533,-0.005836,0.004508,0.019688,0.006461,0.004399,0.001 626,0.003369,0.001978,-0.010599,0.004579,-0.000359
Finnic-like:Udmurt11,0.102441,-0.021326,0.081458,0.067507,-0.032006,0.007809,0.011986,0.007384,-0.011453,-0.037723,0.022247,-0.001199,0.013082,-0.038672,-0.009365,-0.006762,-0.00352,0.00266,-0.010182,-0.014382,0.006738,0.000866,-0.008134,0.010001,-0.002754
Germanic:ALH_1___AD_450___Coverage_94.81%,0.118376 ,0.129988,0.06939,0.051034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014 101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
Germanic:R2204___AD_150___Coverage_65.74%,0.132035 ,0.128972,0.076178,0.057494,0.04647,0.021196,0.006 815,0.011769,0.001227,-0.01221,-0.002436,-0.002398,0.000595,-0.009083,0.020765,0.0118,-0.010431,0.005701,0.006159,0.005753,0.013102,0.003 833,0,0.013496,-0.00012
Germanic:SZ13___AD_488___Coverage_70.31%,0.133173, 0.133034,0.065996,0.059109,0.041238,0.017012,0.004 23,0.001154,-0.005522,-0.004191,-0.007632,0.007493,-0.008622,-0.004542,0.016422,0.006232,0.001043,-0.002407,0.007165,0.002876,0.015473,0.014715,0.003 328,0.01458,0.000359
Germanic:SZ15___AD_508___Coverage_99.90%,0.138864, 0.116786,0.058454,0.042959,0.036314,0.024821,0.002 35,0.010153,0.001227,-0.003827,0.001949,0.001948,-0.013082,-0.015276,0.016558,0.017634,0.012517,0.000127,0.013 073,0.013006,0.003993,0.00272,-0.002342,0.025064,-0.004191
Germanic:SZ16___AD_508___Coverage_54.61%,0.133173, 0.128972,0.068259,0.062662,0.035699,0.019522,0.002 585,0.009923,0.001432,-0.005832,0.001137,0.008992,-0.005946,-0.006881,0.024158,0.006232,-0.008084,-0.000253,-0.003017,0.009004,0.003244,0.005193,0.001109,0.014 219,0.003353
Germanic:SZ22___AD_508___Coverage_59.28%,0.130897, 0.131003,0.057699,0.06137,0.044008,0.011713,0.0051 7,0.002538,-0.000409,0.000547,-0.012991,0.005845,-0.004906,-0.010735,0.010586,0.012463,0.000782,-0.003801,0.002891,0.012381,0.009109,0.004328,-0.004314,0.005663,0.003952
Germanic:SZ2___AD_508___Coverage_99.66%,0.122929,0 .139128,0.070144,0.067184,0.038469,0.018128,0.0061 1,0.006461,-0.000205,-0.009294,-0.000974,-0.00015,-0.008474,-0.00055,0.017372,-0.006629,-0.022296,0.005954,0.005908,-0.004627,0.015597,0.000742,0.007395,0.008555,0.002 634
Germanic:SZ7___AD_508___Coverage_63.80%,0.135449,0 .135065,0.066373,0.062016,0.035083,0.01255,0.00611 ,0.005307,0.003272,0,-0.011205,3.00E-04,-0.007433,-0.010322,0.018729,0.002784,-0.005476,0.000127,0.001885,0.002376,0.009234,0.007 419,0.001602,0.015785,-0.001197
Germanic:CL146___AD_605___Coverage_71.88%,0.129758 ,0.131003,0.063356,0.05491,0.040931,0.015897,0.003 525,0.010384,0.001023,-0.006925,-0.002761,0.004346,-0.017988,-0.007982,0.026873,0.001193,-0.0103,0.003294,0.010056,0.011255,0.006239,0.00432 8,0.003944,0.017954,0.000838
Germanic:CL92___AD_605___Coverage_64.15%,0.135449, 0.132019,0.070144,0.04845,0.037238,0.013945,0.0079 9,0.020307,0.005522,0.002551,-0.013478,-0.001649,-0.005798,-0.004404,0.02348,0.005171,-0.023208,0.005321,0.004777,-0.003502,0.008735,0.008903,-0.00493,0.003615,0.001078
Graeco-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR76,0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
Palaeo-Balkan:ALB_MA_I13839,0.120652,0.151314,0.013953,-0.037468,0.030159,-0.012271,-0.001175,-0.001615,0.006136,0.025149,-0.004222,0.003897,-0.015609,0.002202,-0.019815,-0.007425,0.008605,0.006461,0.00817,-0.014257,-0.007112,0.002968,0.006039,-0.003735,-0.000599
Turkic:TUR_Ottoman_MA2195,0.072847,-0.144205,0.035449,-0.000969,-0.045855,-0.02008,0.009165,0.004154,-0.014112,-0.011299,-0.006008,-0.006594,-0.001189,-0.013349,0.004072,0.00053,0.005476,0.002914,-0.005405,0.007879,-0.012104,0.000495,-0.011339,-0.006386,-0.004191


The results in the v2.3 calculator of the made public Albanian members of AG and TA using their G25 coords are displayed here:

https://i.imgur.com/ilJlnos.jpg

The (Albanian) reference for Palaeo Balkan seems notably more "pure" then the mentioned prior "Balkan" references from Novo_Selo_Bunje and Velic, causing some more things to now show up. Amongst others the proto Balto-Slavic proportion of these modern Albanians seem zu be abt. 10-20%, which seems in line with some statements about Slavs having been in Albania to a not irrelevant amount. The Palaeo-Balkan proportion of others like Croats decreases somewhat. Albanians are the top scorers of this component.

There will be a "bouncy-issue" with the calculator as it seems not by coincidence to attribute some Germanic to those testees that happens to get zero Celtic-like.

Varda
06-12-2023, 05:17 PM
Cry me a river

https://i.ibb.co/z872Jv7/ydna.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/z872Jv7/ydna.jpg (https://ibb.co/5YnjFHn)

That means nothing. You need some E-V13 skeleton from the Illyrian space from pre-Roman period, and there is no such thing among a lot of tested skeletons from that regions and period. I see you are quite fucked up with the fact that E-V13 have nothing to do with Illyrians and it is Thracian. :)

Hulu
06-12-2023, 05:49 PM
That means nothing. You need some E-V13 skeleton from the Illyrian space from pre-Roman period, and there is no such thing among a lot of tested skeletons from that regions and period. I see you are quite fucked up with the fact that E-V13 have nothing to do with Illyrians and it is Thracian. :)

You're just dumb. I give up. Those are ancient matches from those areas aka skeletons from Illyrian space pre-Roman period. Find somebody who can explain that to you.

Varda
06-12-2023, 07:37 PM
You're just dumb. I give up. Those are ancient matches from those areas aka skeletons from Illyrian space pre-Roman period. Find somebody who can explain that to you.

Ancient skeletons from Illyrian space from your imagination. The oldest E-V13 skeleton from Illyrian space is from Zadar - early Roman period (1st century AD). I follow the news from archaeogenetic on a regular basis. Other two ancient E-V13 samples from western Balkans are also from Roman period but younger than that from Zadar.

Jana
06-15-2023, 03:49 PM
I read the paper few days ago, and it's a great one, some things it says:

IA Albanians were basically full Illyrians and formed a cline with Illyrians further north with additional minor 10-15% Greek or Thracian like ancestry
In Roman times massive East Med input into future lands of south Slavs (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro) while Albania remained largerly unchanged up to middle ages
Medieval Albanians were still very pure Paleo-Balkanites and received minimal Slavic input
Modern Albanians are both more Slavic and more East Med than medieval Albanians which implies they didn't mix with pure Slavic migrants initally but only later mixed with already existant South Slavic people
Slavic ancestry was largerly female mediated in modern Albanians
Still unclear origins of E-V13 in modern Albanians as formal tests don't pick up notable Thracian ancestry and it's possible there is some still untested central Balkan population that was E-V13 rich (just a theory for now)
IA Illyrians were indeed directly Yamnaya originated and not Corded Ware mixed with Balkan natives

Varda
06-15-2023, 10:25 PM
I read the paper few days ago, and it's a great one, some things it says:

IA Albanians were basically full Illyrians and formed a cline with Illyrians further north with additional minor 10-15% Greek or Thracian like ancestry
In Roman times massive East Med input into future lands of south Slavs (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro) while Albania remained largerly unchanged up to middle ages
Medieval Albanians were still very pure Paleo-Balkanites and received minimal Slavic input
Modern Albanians are both more Slavic and more East Med than medieval Albanians which implies they didn't mix with pure Slavic migrants initally but only later mixed with already existant South Slavic people
Slavic ancestry was largerly female mediated in modern Albanians
Still unclear origins of E-V13 in modern Albanians as formal tests don't pick up notable Thracian ancestry and it's possible there is some still untested central Balkan population that was E-V13 rich (just a theory for now)
IA Illyrians were indeed directly Yamnaya originated and not Corded Ware mixed with Balkan natives

Post of Никац few day ago https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189156#msg189156

My current opinion is that proto-Albanians were formed somewhere in present day Serbia as a combination of two groups:

- V13 Thracians, possible tribe Bessi, who migrated from Thrace, originally they spoke Thracian language which was not close to Albanian.
Southern Thracian is most dominant autosomal admixture in modern Albanians.

- Z2705 smaller group of Triballi or some close related tribe which imposes its own language (proto-Albanian) to bigger group V13

- Then, about 500 AD proto-Albanians start migrating towards modern Albania, and after arrival they assimilate smaller number of Illyro-Romans and others, mostly J2b2.


Another his interesting posts on the same topic
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189172#msg189172
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189192#msg189192

Occiput in Starlight
06-15-2023, 11:58 PM
For sure https://forum.krstarica.com/threads/becko-berlinska-skola-vs-novoromanticari-ii.950089/page-99#post-47061304

I am reading the posts from about late 2022 onwards. Great stuff. Really enjoyable.

Tenn
06-16-2023, 11:22 AM
I am reading the posts from about late 2022 onwards. Great stuff. Really enjoyable.

It's a bunch of propaganda.

Proto-Albanians didn't originate in Bulgaria but in the Western-Central Balkans as we can see by the J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563 found among Illyrians which are also some of the most frequent Y-DNA among Albanians today. That the Albanian language originated in the Western-Central Balkans is also supported by linguistic evidence Scupi -> Shkup is an Albanian toponym that has developed from the Albanian language. And the Mat region in North-Central Albania is considered one of the oldest Albanian settlements going back to the early Roman period. It's an Albanian toponym and means ''river bank'' or so.

E-V13 wasn't only concentrated in Bulgaria but spread out into Greece and the Central Balkans like Serbia, Dardania, Macedonia etc at one point way before Slavs arrived. And their profiles might of actually been something similar to Illyrians or the samples from Macedonia. Roman Imperial + Bulgar-Slavic simply shifted Albanians more east. The samples in Bulgaria are way too south to be ancestor of Albanians.

Occiput in Starlight
06-16-2023, 11:43 AM
It's a bunch of propaganda.

Proto-Albanians didn't originate in Bulgaria but in the Western-Central Balkans as we can see by the J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563 found among Illyrians which are also some of the most frequent Y-DNA among Albanians today. That the Albanian language originated in the Western-Central Balkans is also supported by linguistic evidence Scupi -> Shkup is an Albanian toponym that has developed from the Albanian language. And the Mat region in North-Central Albania is considered one of the oldest Albanian settlements going back to the early Roman period. It's an Albanian toponym and means ''river bank'' or so.

E-V13 wasn't only concentrated in Bulgaria but spread out into Greece and the Central Balkans like Serbia, Dardania, Macedonia etc at one point way before Slavs arrived. And their profiles might of actually been something similar to Illyrians or the samples from Macedonia. Roman Imperial + Bulgar-Slavic simply shifted Albanians more east. The samples in Bulgaria are way too south to be ancestor of Albanians.

I like the posts which don't attempt to overly label, define or otherwise concretize Thracians, Albanians or E-V13.

Tenn
06-16-2023, 11:45 AM
Post of Никац few day ago https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189156#msg189156

My current opinion is that proto-Albanians were formed somewhere in present day Serbia as a combination of two groups:

- V13 Thracians, possible tribe Bessi, who migrated from Thrace, originally they spoke Thracian language which was not close to Albanian.
Southern Thracian is most dominant autosomal admixture in modern Albanians.

- Z2705 smaller group of Triballi or some close related tribe which imposes its own language (proto-Albanian) to bigger group V13

- Then, about 500 AD proto-Albanians start migrating towards modern Albania, and after arrival they assimilate smaller number of Illyro-Romans and others, mostly J2b2.


Another his interesting posts on the same topic
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189172#msg189172
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189192#msg189192


This is speculative and not supported by any evidence. Plenty of linguistic evidence have been posted here. And linguistics are clear, town names in the central Balkans such as Nish, Shkup (Skopje), Shtip etc have developed from the Albanian language and weren't taken from Slavs. Your own sources from the medieval period mention Albanians around these towns. And E-V13 spread most likely into Albania and other areas of the Balkans from these trading routes.


Town names in Albania weren't taken from Slavs either but either developed from Albanian or they were taken from Latin speakers way before 500 AD. For example Matzinger who does not support the native theory of the Albanian language in Albania claims it still has been there since 400 AD at least. Bessi were a Hellenized tribe or partially Hellenized. Many of the Thracians in Bulgaria were Hellenized too unlike Albanian which has more Latin influence.


Also 25 samples in South-East Albania all belonged to R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563, two of the most major Albanian R1b. So most likely didn't come from somewhere else that one either .


There is one E-L618 in North Macedonia which has a profile similar to Illyrians. E-L618 is also the parent node of E-V13.

Tenn
06-16-2023, 11:49 AM
I read the paper few days ago, and it's a great one, some things it says:

IA Albanians were basically full Illyrians and formed a cline with Illyrians further north with additional minor 10-15% Greek or Thracian like ancestry
In Roman times massive East Med input into future lands of south Slavs (Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro) while Albania remained largerly unchanged up to middle ages
Medieval Albanians were still very pure Paleo-Balkanites and received minimal Slavic input
Modern Albanians are both more Slavic and more East Med than medieval Albanians which implies they didn't mix with pure Slavic migrants initally but only later mixed with already existant South Slavic people
Slavic ancestry was largerly female mediated in modern Albanians
Still unclear origins of E-V13 in modern Albanians as formal tests don't pick up notable Thracian ancestry and it's possible there is some still untested central Balkan population that was E-V13 rich (just a theory for now)
IA Illyrians were indeed directly Yamnaya originated and not Corded Ware mixed with Balkan natives


I agree with you. But there is one thing that is the problem here, the so called ''East med'' that we are talking about. Have you noticed how East some South Slavs such as Macedonians and Bulgarians plot and they were in contact with Albanians and they settled Central Balkans and modern Albania. A lot of Avar samples are extremely east too.

Varda
06-16-2023, 02:34 PM
This is speculative and not supported by any evidence. Plenty of linguistic evidence have been posted here. And linguistics are clear, town names in the central Balkans such as Nish, Shkup (Skopje), Shtip etc have developed from the Albanian language and weren't taken from Slavs. Your own sources from the medieval period mention Albanians around these towns. And E-V13 spread most likely into Albania and other areas of the Balkans from these trading routes.


Town names in Albania weren't taken from Slavs either but either developed from Albanian or they were taken from Latin speakers way before 500 AD. For example Matzinger who does not support the native theory of the Albanian language in Albania claims it still has been there since 400 AD at least. Bessi were a Hellenized tribe or partially Hellenized. Many of the Thracians in Bulgaria were Hellenized too unlike Albanian which has more Latin influence.


Also 25 samples in South-East Albania all belonged to R1b-Z2103 and R-PF7563, two of the most major Albanian R1b. So most likely didn't come from somewhere else that one either .


There is one E-L618 in North Macedonia which has a profile similar to Illyrians. E-L618 is also the parent node of E-V13.

Bessi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi) long time under the Roman rule preserved own language, because they were highlanders who lived on the mountains of modern western Bulgaria. Claim that their elite was gradually helenized as it says on the Wiki is debatable, since they lived isolated on high mountains. Even if that happened, it is not against Bessi theory about proto-Albanian origin. Elites and broad masses often had a different developmental way. Bessi most likely had a lot of E-V13, and R1b to a lesser extent. Interesting is linguistic correlation between Thracian tribe Bessi and Besa from Albanian culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)

Post of Ивица Јовановић (he is a Vlach btw), he has some point there https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=183.msg189218#msg189218
If i understand well, Albanians have two separate Romance influences. One is closer to East Romance languages, and second is closer to West Romance languages. This would essentially mean that two populations met in the area inhabited by Albanians, let's call them eastern and western. Those two populations merged, and today we have what we have, both genetically and linguistically. Questions is which of those components was dominant and imposed proto-Albanian language (if we go by logic, the one who dominates introduces his own language). Probably it was eastern population, if we consider linguistics. You mentioned that proto-Albanian is correlated with Romanian. It is true that in the Romanian language exist words similar to words in Albanian, and at the same time they don't have Latin root, as zemura for example (in Latin rubus)... Therefore, proto-Albanian must have come from the east. Even the name itself Arberi is indicator when we know for the changes from L in R. It would essentially mean the population that welcomed them in Albania (western) didn't speak proto-Albanian. Quite logical, since they had mote chance to preserve own language at high mountains of the central Balkans then closer to Adriatic where the influence of Latin was greater. If we look at the map of the main Roman roads we see that Pirin mountain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirin) is sandwiched between Via Militaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Militaris) and Via Egnatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia), somehow it is the most logical place to me (mountain, outside of the main roads and away from larger cities).

Tenn
06-16-2023, 09:24 PM
My point was that East Med ancestry acquired during the Roman period isn't the only thing that shifted the Balkans east of the Iron Age cluster but I also noticed many Slavs and South Slavs (especially Macedonians and Bulgarians) plot more east than Albanians and even modern Romanians plot way more east. And many Greeks too. Many Macedonians are also just Slavicized Albanians and Vlachs.

Tenn
06-27-2023, 08:10 AM
Modern Albanians are actually not much different from Medieval samples from Albania or even Roman samples. Just a bit more Balto-Slavic. Not sure how they are supposed to be more East Med shifted or much different. I myself get about 80% Roman Illyria:

https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0rzGpm/Bilde-2023-06-23-162713952.png

There are populations in the Balkans that plot more east than Albanians like Bulgarians, Romanians etc. Albania and Central Balkans was also occupied by Bulgarians.

Balkan Slavs shouldn't model themselves with Iron Age samples considering the profile of native Balkan people was a bit different during the Roman period so if a Balkan Slav gets 40% Roman Illyria, then the Iron Age ancestry from West Balkan populations should certainly be much less than that.


Iron Age ancestry of Albanians obviously didn't only come from only Western Balkans but also possibly Central Balkan groups, these samples overlap with Illyrians and were part of the Illyrian sphere of the Western Balkans, one can also add Ancient Greek + Thracian.

Speed
10-02-2023, 01:27 PM
These aren't Iron Age Albanians or the only Albanians since they have no E-V13. The actual Iron Age Albanians or part of the Iron Age Albanians that brought the language and E-V13 originated in Dardania Nish-Shkup-Shtip area where you can find medieval Albanian toponyms in Serbia-Dardania-Macedonia.

https://mapcarta.com/14050682 - Arnautski Potok (Albanian stream)
https://mapcarta.com/13931884 - Arbanashka (Albanian)
https://mapcarta.com/N2251131727 - Gjakus (From Albanian 'Gjak')
https://mapcarta.com/N7765724359 - Arbanashka (Albanian) Mountain
https://mapcarta.com/N7765724359 - Gjaka (Xhaka) (From where the footballer Granit Xhaka got their name)
https://mapcarta.com/13931880 - Arbanashka river (Albanian river)
https://mapcarta.com/14072132 - Arbanashko Hill (Albanian Hill)
https://mapcarta.com/N4000356432 - Ujmir

And many more.

Secondly why they don't plot with Albanians would also be because Albanians have Slavic + some Roman Imperial which pulled them out of the Thracian-Illyrian cluster.



Anyway these Serbs forgot to change the toponyms before they expelled the Albanians out of there:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Izgon_Albancev_in_naselitev_Kosova.jpg/450px-Izgon_Albancev_in_naselitev_Kosova.jpg