Classify archaic looking girl from northern Ireland

[Oliver109]

Proto brunn?
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/E9B9/production/_130033895_352818021_1469103990161225_262392414623 661645_n.jpg.webp
https://focus.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/thumbor/wczb1TjWQ8wFJVEF2TIEihJtwCQ=/960x640/smart/prod-mh-ireland/8f129652-95b4-11ed-b7f0-0210609a3fe2.JPG

[PaganPoet]

Insular Celtic with Altaic

[Grace O'Malley]

Looks more Paleo Atlantid. Brunns are lighter. She looks a bit pseudo Asian.

[Oliver109]

Looks more Paleo Atlantid. Brunns are lighter. She looks a bit pseudo Asian.

I agree but I think Brunn pigmentation varies the only commonality brunns have is that they seem to be universally light skinned but you do see brunns with all colors of hair and eyes except perhaps very dark eyes.

[Grace O'Malley]

She is not that "archaic" looking in these pictures.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9B99/production/_130033893_350728641_635986118486801_3348799155003 885399_n.jpg.webp

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D7AC/production/_130021255_352603162_208635432062155_3261562806134 833503_n.jpg.webp

https://www.farminglife.com/webimg/TUFZMTI3MzEyMTcw.jpg?crop=3:2,smart&width=640&quality=65

[Grace O'Malley]

I agree but I think Brunn pigmentation varies the only commonality brunns have is that they seem to be universally light skinned but you do see brunns with all colors of hair and eyes except perhaps very dark eyes.

Brunn hair colour is blond to brown and red hair is common. Eye colour usually blue, green or grey.

https://physicalanthropologywiki.fandom.com/wiki/Br%C3%BCnn

[Oliver109]

Brunn hair colour is blond to brown and red hair is common. Eye colour usually blue, green or grey.

https://physicalanthropologywiki.fandom.com/wiki/Br%C3%BCnn

Very dark hair though is quite common in Ireland, I think that the original paleolithic people had quite a dark haired strain as is also seen in the alpines, lighter blonde hair spread from a mutation in eastern Russia.

[Oliver109]

She is not that "archaic" looking in these pictures.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/9B99/production/_130033893_350728641_635986118486801_3348799155003 885399_n.jpg.webp

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D7AC/production/_130021255_352603162_208635432062155_3261562806134 833503_n.jpg.webp

https://www.farminglife.com/webimg/TUFZMTI3MzEyMTcw.jpg?crop=3:2,smart&width=640&quality=65

What do you think the original Irish looked like?

[Grace O'Malley]

Very dark hair though is quite common in Ireland, I think that the original paleolithic people had quite a dark haired strain as is also seen in the alpines, lighter blonde hair spread from a mutation in eastern Russia.

It's as common as light brown hair. They are nearly equal in percentages (this is excluding red and blond hair). Also no point talking about the paleolithic people in relation to Ireland. The Irish only really started being "Irish" during the Bronze Age. Earlier populations were so small or virtually non-existent and have not had any input to the present day Irish.

[Grace O'Malley]

What do you think the original Irish looked like?

They would have had different hair and eye colours.


Bronze Age Rathlin1 probably had a light hair shade (61.4%) and brown eyes (64.3%). However, each Rathlin genome possessed indication of at least one copy of a haplotype associated with blue eye color in the HERC2/OCA2 region.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1518445113

[Oliver109]

It's as common as light brown hair. They are nearly equal in percentages (this is excluding red and blond hair). Also no point talking about the paleolithic people in relation to Ireland. The Irish only really started being "Irish" during the Bronze Age. Earlier populations were so small or virtually non-existent and have not had any input to the present day Irish.

Didn't Ireland have a considerable neolithic population? Also traits can re emerge over time, Coon said that island populations can easily see the re emergence of old traits.

[Grace O'Malley]

Didn't Ireland have a considerable neolithic population? Also traits can re emerge over time, Coon said that island populations can easily see the re emergence of old traits.

Coon did not have genetics to base his opinions on. The Irish Neolithic did not survive. There was an almost complete population turnover during the Bronze Age. There is a lot of boom and bust in the Irish population and there has been theories that weather changes caused problems for the farming population in Ireland. Anyway now Irish owe their genetics to people that arrived in the Bronze Age and not to people that Ballynahtty belonged to. It is now why present day Irish do not match any population from the Irish Neolithic.

[Oliver109]

Coon did not have genetics to base his opinions on. The Irish Neolithic did not survive. There was an almost complete population turnover during the Bronze Age. There is a lot of boom and bust in the Irish population and there has been theories that weather changes caused problems for the farming population in Ireland. Anyway now Irish owe their genetics to people that arrived in the Bronze Age and not to people that Ballynahtty belonged to. It is now why present day Irish do not match any population from the Irish Neolithic.

I think the replacement was large, maybe 70% of the population? but not total obviously and many of the incomers were perhaps not radically different looking from the native Irish. You see a phenomenon with Orthodox Jews infact where genetically they might be quite Semitic but many look very light skinned and haired, i have seen many who are as pale as any Dutch or Irish person.

[Creoda]

Didn't Ireland have a considerable neolithic population? Also traits can re emerge over time, Coon said that island populations can easily see the re emergence of old traits.
Neolithic Irish/British were gracile wogs, why on earth would you think a 'proto Brunn' (I thought Brunn was the proto) came from them?

The distinctly Insular Celtic features like that are of Bronze Age/Bell Beaker origin, for the umpteenth time.

[Creoda]

I think the replacement was large, maybe 70% of the population? but not total obviously and many of the incomers were perhaps not radically different looking from the native Irish. You see a phenomenon with Orthodox Jews infact where genetically they might be quite Semitic but many look very light skinned and haired, i have seen many who are as pale as any Dutch or Irish person.
It was 90-95% replacement by Bell Beakers. Then add the waves of migration from Celts, Vikings, Normans, English etc and it's probably 99% replacement since the Neolithic. Not even worth mentioning, so get over this Neolithic/Paleolithic survival bs.

[Oliver109]

It was 90-95% replacement by Bell Beakers. Then add the waves of migration from Celts, Vikings, Normans, English etc and it's probably 99% replacment since the Neolithic. Not even worth mentioning, so get over this Neolithic/Paleolithic survival bs.

What about this study? Anyway the reason why the British are paler is probably because of an emergence of the light skin gene introduced from Russia
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3000998/Are-Welsh-truest-Brits-English-genomes-contain-German-French-DNA-Romans-left-no-trace.html

[Grace O'Malley]

What about this study? Anyway the reason why the British are paler is probably because of an emergence of the light skin gene introduced from Russia
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3000998/Are-Welsh-truest-Brits-English-genomes-contain-German-French-DNA-Romans-left-no-trace.html

That is from the People of the British Isles study although the Republic of Ireland wasn't included. It also doesn't use any ancient genomes but only modern populations. "Ireland was also excluded from admixture and ancestry analyses due to the confounding effects of the island acting as “a source and a sink for ancestry from the UK”.

[Oliver109]

That is from the People of the British Isles study although the Republic of Ireland wasn't included. It also doesn't use any ancient genomes but only modern populations. "Ireland was also excluded from admixture and ancestry analyses due to the confounding effects of the island acting as “a source and a sink for ancestry from the UK”.

A shame they didn't use Ireland but anyway it would seem that the Irish would be broadly similar to the British. Even the north Germans wouldn't be that different because they have very similar pigmentation in a lot of cases i.e quite pale.

[Grace O'Malley]

A shame they didn't use Ireland but anyway it would seem that the Irish would be broadly similar to the British. Even the north Germans wouldn't be that different because they have very similar pigmentation in a lot of cases i.e quite pale.

They didn't use Ireland because it would mask input from the rest of Europe. The studies now need to use ancient genomes and that is what some of the later studies have done.

[Creoda]

It's as common as light brown hair. They are nearly equal in percentages (this is excluding red and blond hair). Also no point talking about the paleolithic people in relation to Ireland. The Irish only really started being "Irish" during the Bronze Age. Earlier populations were so small or virtually non-existent and have not had any input to the present day Irish.
It's true that the Irish derive most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age Irish/British, but I would consider the real ethnogenesis of the Irish to be when Celtic language (proto-Goidelic) was brought there, maybe around 500 BC?

There's very little discussion about when and how Ireland became Celtic. I reckon the Bronze Age Irish were largely replaced by British Celts (who themselves were at least half Bronze Age British), via Wales.

[Oliver109]

It's true that the Irish derive most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age Irish/British, but I would consider the real ethnogenesis of the Irish to be when Celtic language (proto-Goidelic) was brought there, maybe around 500 BC?

There's very little discussion about when and how Ireland became Celtic. I reckon the Bronze Age Irish were largely replaced by British Celts (who themselves were at least half Bronze Age British), via Wales.

The kelts would have been quite nordic and similar to some Germans and other north central Euros. i don't think the distinctive Brunn types came with them as they are lacking in mainland Europe.

[Grace O'Malley]

The kelts would have been quite nordic and similar to some Germans and other north central Euros. i don't think the distinctive Brunn types came with them as they are lacking in mainland Europe.

I wouldn't conflate anthropology with genetics. There are Brunn types in other parts of Europe but they are just called something else. There are certainly common phenotypes in populations due to people mixing within their own borders which would give ethnicities their more distinctive traits but I wouldn't use old world anthropology to come to conclusions about what groups contributed to different populations. We now have genetics and studies in the future will be more accurate in answering these questions.

[Creoda]

The kelts would have been quite nordic and similar to some Germans and other north central Euros. i don't think the distinctive Brunn types came with them as they are lacking in mainland Europe.
Well they were obviously more gracile than the Bronze Age Irish, and a large Celtic migration from Britain could explain why there is such a surprising metrical variation in Ireland for such a small isolated population, between the stereotypical Brunn/Borreby types and the equally typical KN types, which are yet so very different.

[Dentist]

Paleo Atlantid

[Oliver109]

I wouldn't conflate anthropology with genetics. There are Brunn types in other parts of Europe but they are just called something else. There are certainly common phenotypes in populations due to people mixing within their own borders which would give ethnicities their more distinctive traits but I wouldn't use old world anthropology to come to conclusions about what groups contributed to different populations. We now have genetics and studies in the future will be more accurate in answering these questions.

In London there are tonnes of tourists and workers from all over Europe and it is very rare to see Brunn looking people that don't come from Belgium or Germany or around the low countries. there is just a difference in bone structure really, even the Scandinavians seem to lack brunn elements bar a few.

[Roy]

Brunn

[aherne]

Baltid with dark hair and eyes (hence pseudo-Asian look)... Infantilized paleo-European (I don't think she has any Alpine)

[NSXD60]

No profile pic but frontal presents broad flat face with moderately ?pseudo Mongol eyes, so maybe stranded ancient Finns yet to be unearthed, or simply a genetic anomaly of nature.

[Oliver109]

No profile pic but frontal presents broad flat face with moderately ?pseudo Mongol eyes, so maybe stranded ancient Finns yet to be unearthed, or simply a genetic anomaly of nature.

Strandid i agree, N Euro look