Why are Yugoslavians so tall?

[renisenb]

I've noticed they're surrounded by shorter races (Greeks/Italians/Turks/Iranians). Even Austrians are not generally tall. Not sure about Bulgarians. Usually people are a blend of their neighbours, especially in lands occupied for centuries. They seem to have some Mongolian influence, but if anything, that would have made them shorter. So are they just a race that evolved completely independently?

[Benyzero]

Height is complex but probably there is some recessive genes that is more common and evolved in that part. They are beasts at basketball not by accident. I can remember we were at a junior championship event in france when I used to do basketball.. The south slavs were no match to anyone... those kids were adult height at 14

[Jokker]

I'm Yugoslav, but 5"8 and shorter than almost everyone...

[Varda]

I've noticed they're surrounded by shorter races (Greeks/Italians/Turks/Iranians). Even Austrians are not generally tall. Not sure about Bulgarians. Usually people are a blend of their neighbours, especially in lands occupied for centuries. They seem to have some Mongolian influence, but if anything, that would have made them shorter. So are they just a race that evolved completely independently?

https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/04/12/move-over-dutch-men-herzegovinians-may-be-tallest-world-11122

https://www.acsh.org/sites/default/files/Herzegovinians.jpg

Interesting eastern (Serbian majority) and western (Croatian majority) Herzegovina are taller on average than central Herzegovina (Muslim/Bosniak majority).

[Victor]

I'm Yugoslav, but 5"8 and shorter than almost everyone...

I lived in Serbia and with my 6"0 (183 cm) I was less than average height I guess. Lots of much higher people there and even women of my height or around 180 cm, 175 is very common, but at the same time some part of population is shorter, I guess the Serbians of SE, those closer to Bulgaria and Macedonia, much of them are solidly built and smaller by shapes. Btw I always thought I'm 182, but few days ago during medical examination I knew I'm 183 xD

[renaissance12]

I've noticed they're surrounded by shorter races (Greeks/Italians/Turks/Iranians). Even Austrians are not generally tall. Not sure about Bulgarians. Usually people are a blend of their neighbours, especially in lands occupied for centuries. They seem to have some Mongolian influence, but if anything, that would have made them shorter. So are they just a race that evolved completely independently?


Too many gypsies ?

[Varda]

I lived in Serbia and with my 6"0 (183 cm) I was less than average height I guess. Lots of much higher people there and even women of my height or around 180 cm, 175 is very common, but at the same time some part of population is shorter, I guess the Serbians of SE, those closer to Bulgaria and Macedonia, much of them are solidly built and smaller by shapes. Btw I always thought I'm 182, but few days ago during medical examination I knew I'm 183 xD

Average height on the mundial 2022 https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr30/en/images/fig03.svg?crc=3933875091

I am 191 cm (my brother is 187 cm). I wouldn't like to be taller. 193-94 cm is the maximum for normal life, everything above is problematic for normal functioning. My two distant cousins are almost 2 m tall. For both special beds are made, they can't find the right size in stores. They have to bend down when they enter a door somewhere. They have trouble getting into car. As all people with height 195+ cm they are sluggish and clumsy.

[Victor]

Average height on the mundial 2022 https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr30/en/images/fig03.svg?crc=3933875091

I am 191 cm (my brother is 187 cm). I wouldn't like to be taller. 193-94 cm is the maximum for normal life, everything above is problematic for normal functioning. My two distant cousins are almost 2 m tall. For both special beds are made, they can't find the right size in stores. They have to bend down when they enter a door somewhere. They have trouble getting into car. As all people with height 195+ cm they are sluggish and clumsy.

My paternal bro from father's first marriage is 210 cm lol. His maternal grandfather was very tall.

[renisenb]

So any ideas how Yugoslavians evolved to be this tall in an isolated area? Perhaps some ancient race that didn't venture far away? It's similar to the Lithuanian thread, where Lithuanians seem much more CM than all their neighbours surrounding them.

[reboun]

Answer: Selective breeding.

Apparently, people from Balkans were prone prone to marrying taller people.

[ugochaves]

I agree. Serbs and Croats (even women) are very tall and beautiful. It gives me a complex. looking up from the bottom is not ice. I'm missing -180 centimeters.

[renisenb]

Answer: Selective breeding.

Apparently, people from Balkans were prone prone to marrying taller people.

Doesn't everyone select taller people? Women for sure prefer men taller than them, even when they themselves are tall. Tall men aren't as selective for height usually, but perhaps Yugoslavian men preferred only tall women, that would have wiped out all the short people within a few generations.

[Barba]

Dutch are very tall as well.
Genetic predisposition+diet+selection
That's what it is

[renisenb]

Dutch are very tall as well.
Genetic predisposition+diet+selection
That's what it is

Dutch are very tall but they are not that much taller than their neighbours in Germany, Scandinavia, etc. Yugoslavians just seem strange because they're a super-tall people in the middle of much shorter people.

[Damião de Góis]

I've noticed they're surrounded by shorter races (Greeks/Italians/Turks/Iranians).

A bit of romani wisdom:

Difference in height is most likely caused by poverty and nutrition. Rome, for example, is MUCH poorer compared to Belgrade.

[Sylvanas]

Genetic factor, high calcium levels in water (for bones) and dietary proteins.

[Barba]

Dutch are very tall but they are not that much taller than their neighbours in Germany, Scandinavia, etc. Yugoslavians just seem strange because they're a super-tall people in the middle of much shorter people.

But you are mistaken. The study doesn't mention any "Yugoslavs", but exclusively people from the southern parts of the Western Balkans : Montenegro, Herzegovina, Dalmatia- the higlanders from the Dinaric Alps as being exceptionally tall!

The rest are almost in no way different from northern Europeans, even more so, Czech women, Latvians, etc.,etc., are much taller women on average, and Slovenians and Macedonians do not stand out in any way compared to the peoples of Central/Northern Europe.

Romanians are a much bigger deviation, because along with the Portuguese, they are the shortest people in Europe, and much shorter than everyone surrounding them.

[Jana]

But you are mistaken. The study doesn't mention any "Yugoslavs", but exclusively people from the southern parts of the Western Balkans : Montenegro, Herzegovina, Dalmatia- the higlanders from the Dinaric Alps as being exceptionally tall!

The rest are almost in no way different from northern Europeans, even more so, Czech women, Latvians, etc.,etc., are much taller women on average, and Slovenians and Macedonians do not stand out in any way compared to the peoples of Central/Northern Europe.

Romanians are a much bigger deviation, because along with the Portuguese, they are the shortest people in Europe, and much shorter than everyone surrounding them.

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.

[Mortimer]

A bit of romani wisdom:

Difference in height is most likely caused by poverty and nutrition. Rome, for example, is MUCH poorer compared to Belgrade.

I wouldnt look down on India, eventhough there are many poor people in India, India as a country is much richer and more powerful than Portugal.

[Dentist]

https://i.redd.it/6m6c4fwsloq81.jpg

[Barba]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.
Interesting. Macedonians are even shorter than I thought. Thanks for posting!

[renisenb]

I guess we'll have to fall back on the old refrain - there's something in the water :)

[Varda]

https://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/11/5/786

[Flashball]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.

I am about 1m77/78 (in the morning, 77.8) and the difference is not radical with a person of 1m83, in any case I do not perceive the significant difference

However we are talking about medium size, I imagine that a larger part is either in the medium to medium high range, or in the medium low to medium range.



We must also take into account the age, the era and the generation when we evolve the height of a person:
If I take into account my father: he was born in 1958 and is currently 1m67 at 65 years old.

According to Google:
"From the age of forty, the intervertebral discs lose their elasticity. As a result, by old age, women will have shrunk on average by four centimeters and men by six."

If I assume that my father was +- 3 cm taller (to be conservative, without being overestimated or underestimated) at the age of 20, in 1978, then he was in the average height range of the time in France: in 1970, men were 170.1, and in 1980 they were 171.6.

So he was not small for his generation. He would be considered "smaller" currently in France but however the average height in France cannot be taken seriously: there is too much racial diversity and ethnic diversity, and of mixed descendants, which we add in the average height...

To get an idea of the evolution of the size of the natives: it would be necessary to have genealogical criteria, and to make an average by village, then by city, then by region, then by country.

We should avoid taking into account people with allochthonous gene flows (like me).

This seems logical to me: to assess the size of the natives of a village of 650 inhabitants between 1850 and 2023, we must remain focused on genealogical criteria, it is useless to measure descendants who are barely 25% native to the village. , if not of the country.

It's the same with diseases: if you want to study a specific area of Japan, a specific population, you shouldn't start by studying the local population in 1980 to end in 2023 by studying people who live in the area but are not not native to the area.

This is why genealogical criteria are important, so as not to mix cabbage and lettuce.

Sound bored or "radical" for some people, but that's the scientific method.

[Gallop]

There are several maps and it is no longer clear which one might be the most reliable in general.


https://www.eulixe.com/asset/thumbnail,992,558,center,center/media/eulixe/images/2019/12/05/2019120514112768758.png
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-df0e708957bd75ac2c64dc640f71135f-lq

[renisenb]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635


Interestingly, the tallest people (southeastern Montenegro) are living next door to the shortest people (northeastern Albania).

[retfala]

Dutch are very tall as well.
Genetic predisposition+diet+ selection
That's what it is

yeah, genetic predisposition is the most important when combined with environmental factors.

in the case of Dinaric Alps, it was most likely natural selection, because, in the past, the diet of people there was very modest, and calcium-enriched water can be found everywhere throughout Europe.

they lived in difficult conditions before and during the Ottoman wars, only the strongest survived, and it's known that hormones are also responsible for height- i.e. high testosterone. *these parts have always been warlike*! they were named Morlachs by foreign authors

genetics demonstrated that the entire region witnessed rapid expansion from a small number of people

[Barba]

yeah, genetic predisposition is the most important when combined with environmental factors.

in the case of Dinaric Alps, it was most likely natural selection, because, in the past, the diet of people there was very modest, and calcium-enriched water can be found everywhere throughout Europe.

they lived in difficult conditions before and during the Ottoman wars, only the strongest survived, and it's known that hormones are also responsible for height- i.e. high testosterone. *these parts have always been warlike*! they were named Morlachs by foreign authors

genetics demonstrated that the entire region witnessed rapid expansion from a small number of people

Thank you! Really interesting and makes sense

[retfala]

Thank you! Really interesting and makes sense
but what's up with Dutch? I heard they were much shorter before

in their case the change in diet must have played a big role along with genetics

[Barba]

but what's up with Dutch? I heard they were much shorter before

in their case the change in diet must have played a big role along with genetics
Dutch were among the shortest two centuries ago. They gained 20cm when Americans gained 6cm for the same time period.

In my opinion an example of natural selection at it's finest.
Improved diet? Sure, but it's also in other countries.

[renisenb]

yeah, genetic predisposition is the most important when combined with environmental factors.

in the case of Dinaric Alps, it was most likely natural selection, because, in the past, the diet of people there was very modest, and calcium-enriched water can be found everywhere throughout Europe.

they lived in difficult conditions before and during the Ottoman wars, only the strongest survived, and it's known that hormones are also responsible for height- i.e. high testosterone. *these parts have always been warlike*! they were named Morlachs by foreign authors

genetics demonstrated that the entire region witnessed rapid expansion from a small number of people

But what about Spartans who are from Greece? Greeks tend to be much shorter than Yugoslavians. Of course, Spartans were much more ancient.

[retfala]

But what about Spartans who are from Greece? Greeks tend to be much shorter than Yugoslavians. Of course, Spartans were much more ancient.
well, you gave the answer. You can't compare ancient tribes to modern nations because nothing or very little is known about them. Viking and Illyrian skeletons, as well as descriptions by historians of the time, characterise them as tall and robust, taller than the Romans or Greeks, but they are short for today.

they were more northern genetically, and the western Balkans still is.
we are not descended almost entirely from neolithic farmers like the short Sardinians, followed by the rest of southern Europeans.

so, once again, there must be some kind of *genetic predisposition* (in fact, 80%+ is genetic factor), followed by nutrition and *selection*.

[Varda]

yeah, genetic predisposition is the most important when combined with environmental factors.

in the case of Dinaric Alps, it was most likely natural selection, because, in the past, the diet of people there was very modest, and calcium-enriched water can be found everywhere throughout Europe.

they lived in difficult conditions before and during the Ottoman wars, only the strongest survived, and it's known that hormones are also responsible for height- i.e. high testosterone. *these parts have always been warlike*! they were named Morlachs by foreign authors

genetics demonstrated that the entire region witnessed rapid expansion from a small number of people

My ancestors were part of people from the Dalmatian hinterland who were named Morlachs by Venetians. On my avatar is a drawing of two Morlachs from the past.

[Melkiirs]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.

Do you notice that people in the area you live currently are on average shorter than those from around Split?

[Varda]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.

Knin is almost identical as Travnik and Zenica. Make sense, because most of the present day Knin population are Croatian refugees from central Bosnia who arrived after 1995.

[Rumata]

Btw I always thought I'm 182, but few days ago during medical examination I knew I'm 183 xD

Serbia makes you taller ;)

[zyungh]

but what's up with Dutch? I heard they were much shorter before

in their case the change in diet must have played a big role along with genetics


In my opinion an example of natural selection at it's finest.
Improved diet? Sure, but it's also in other countries.
Dutch are indeed the tallest.
Some selection happened, agreed. This whole thing about height hasn't been yet throughoutly researched.

[Jana]

Greeks tend to be much shorter than Yugoslavians.

Nope, incorrect. Greeks are tallest southern Europeans, and they are taller than their northern neighbours Albanians, Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians.

[Rumata]

Concerning the natural selection I see what the Dutch would want long legs for :D

https://media.nga.gov/iiif/af3e7276-2f9f-47ab-92dd-4a79b4aa9178/full/!740,560/0/default.jpg

[Victor]

Indeed.

Here is full map. There are no "freakishly tall Yugoslavs" lmao, only Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins. Macedonians are even below average short.

here is full map from 2022:

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Mean-height.png?resize=640,635

I live in northern Adriatic coast and people here are similar in height to Germany, Czechia.....they aren't tall like dinaric SW Slavs or Dutch. They are only notably taller than nearby Italians, but that's all.

And Dutch women are taller than south Slavic ones.

Looks legit, Serbians from South of Serbia in 90% of cases were lower than my 183. The first one from Pirot I know since 2007 has some 176 cm height. All the others not higher than 180 cm. I describe those whom I've met personally through years, knowing they're from SE.

[Subhra26]

Yugoslavians who belong to south slavic ancestry specificaly those near the dinaric alps like serbs-croats-bosniaks-montenegrids had ancestors who dined on wolly mammoths that is why they are tall