Muslim Conquests/Genetic effects of Europeans

[Boudica]

I saw people on some site similar to Skadi talking about how the Muslim conquests of Europe effected certain European groups genetically, in other words gave them semitic/non-european admixture. I know a bit about the Muslim conquests but I was wondering if what they were saying is true or not. If they did effect them, what is the 'genetic contribution' of the arabs/berbers to the Iberian/Southern European gene pool? Who was effected the most? Were they effected at all? Thanks guys.

This is a map I found:
http://ironicsurrealism.patriotactionnetwork.co/files/2007/07/mapspreadofislam.jpg

[Savant]

Hmm, interesting topic. It would appear that the genetic contribution was rather significant according to most of the data: "A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html

Of course, citing inconvenient facts can lead one to being called a "troll" around here in some cases...

[TheBorrebyViking]

Hmm, interesting topic. It would appear that the genetic contribution was rather significant according to most of the data: "A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html

Of course, citing inconvenient facts can lead one to being called a "troll" around here in some cases...

I think we've always kind of known some Spanish men are a little mixed.

[d3cimat3d]

There were no genetic effects on Europe from the Muslim conquests. If we don't have huge areas of south-east Europe looking Mongoloid from the 1,000 years Tatars went berserk than why would just 50 years of the Umayyads in France leave a dent on the French people?

The Middle-Eastern-like genes of some Europeans is from the Neolithic period.

[Sikeliot]

Almost no genetic influence. Any Middle Eastern genetic influence in Europe is likely very ancient, i.e. Neolithic.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Almost no genetic influence. Any Middle Eastern genetic influence in Europe is likely very ancient, i.e. Neolithic.

Cotton hair, big noses, dark skin. Seems pretty much still there :coffee:

[Savant]

LOL! Yeah, 800 years of Muslim rule, with Iberia being a caliphate had ZERO genetic influence, and coincidentally we have all these studies showing that Iberians have signatures which match the EXACT GROUPS which occupied Iberia. All just a big coincidence... It's "from the Neolithic" :pound: :clap:

[Sikeliot]

Cotton hair, big noses, dark skin. Seems pretty much still there :coffee:

Those are general Mediterranean features for the most part. Has nothing to do with recent Middle Eastern ancestry.

[Savant]

Hmm, and what about those DNA signatures that are the exact same as the ones found in Berbers, also found in a large portion of Spaniards? Yet, they aren't found in "general Mediterraneans"??


Those are general Mediterranean features for the most part. Has nothing to do with recent Middle Eastern ancestry.

[Incal]

Cotton hair, big noses, dark skin. Seems pretty much still there :coffee:

http://hombresconestilo.com/files/2008/10/broncearse.jpg





LOL! Yeah, 800 years of Muslim rule, with Iberia being a caliphate had ZERO genetic influence, and coincidentally we have all these studies showing that Iberians have signatures which match the EXACT GROUPS which occupied Iberia. All just a big coincidence... It's "from the Neolithic" :pound: :clap:

Before I thought exactly the same but when spaniards regained total control of the peninsula they kicked all muslims back to Africa (including their mistresses and mixed offspring). Of course there were some conversos who stayed but not thaaaaat much.

[Savant]

Well what do we have here, in the New York times? It would appear their genetics reporter, Nicholas Wade, seems to have found some evidence linking Iberians to semitic populations as well... What a coincidental. And he says that it's because of.... brace yourselves!!!.... Muslim occupation!! Imagine that! The Muslim occupation for 800 years actually resulted in some admixture (which is found only in Iberia, and not in the rest of southern Europe):

"The genetic signatures of people in Spain and Portugal provide new and explicit evidence of the mass conversions of Sephardic Jews and Muslims to Catholicism in the 15th and 16th centuries after Christian armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control, a team of geneticists reports.

Twenty percent of the population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and 11 percent have DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors, the geneticists have found."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/science/05genes.html

[d3cimat3d]

Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001373

[Savant]

Wow, so on top of all the North African/Levantine ancestry they have another 1-3% SUB SAHARAN ancestry?! Wow, so they are even more mixed that we thought! Crazy.


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001373

[Nairi]

Wow, so on top of all the North African/Levantine ancestry they have another 1-3% SUB SAHARAN ancestry?! Wow, so they are even more mixed that we thought! Crazy.

Participants of Portuguese beauty contest in Switherland

http://i36.tinypic.com/flg2eo.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/34xfeix.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/27ymhk4.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/15g35w4.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/20q1apw.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/9lkeua.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/jzw8lg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/vaqh0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/v6o0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28upxye.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2iqc1vt.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/fcplat.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/11jsswk.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/t7fvd3.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2utonsx.jpg

[Boudica]

Participants of Portuguese beauty contest in Switherland

http://i36.tinypic.com/flg2eo.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/34xfeix.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/27ymhk4.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/15g35w4.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/20q1apw.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/9lkeua.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/jzw8lg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/vaqh0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/v6o0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28upxye.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2iqc1vt.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/fcplat.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/11jsswk.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/t7fvd3.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2utonsx.jpg

? Relevance? lol

[Comte Arnau]

Effects on the Iberian population were overwhelming. Our genes practice jihads every weekend.

[Boudica]

Effects on the Iberian population were overwhelming. Our genes practice jihads every weekend.

? I wasn't trying to be mean or smart assish by posting this, I was honestly curious.. I've seen people talk about it and some say that there is admixture and others don't.. I've honestly just been curious. I don't know why you made a sarcastic response..

[Comte Arnau]

? I wasn't trying to be mean or smart assish by posting this, I was honestly curious.. I've seen people talk about it and some say that there is admixture and others don't.. I've honestly just been curious. I don't know why you made a sarcastic response..

It was not sarcastic. Mine do.

Well, for instance, people begin by saying Muslims were 7 centuries in Iberia, when that is only true for Granada, to begin with. So on and so forth.

[Boudica]

It was not sarcastic. Mine do.

Well, for instance, people begin by saying Muslims were 7 centuries in Iberia, when that is only true for Granada, to begin with. So on and so forth.

? ok

[Queen B]

I don't know about other places, but under Ottoman empire - in Greece, there was a ''rule''
Muslim + Christian -> Muslim
Orthodox didn't allow mixed marriages,while Muslims did, and the kid after them was considered a Muslim.

[Amapola]

? I wasn't trying to be mean or smart assish by posting this, I was honestly curious.. I've seen people talk about it and some say that there is admixture and others don't.. I've honestly just been curious. I don't know why you made a sarcastic response..

This has been discussed on this forum ad nauseam. Actually it's almost imposible to find a thread on spaniards where this is not remarked or hinted.

Just browse. I suppose people feel lazy about going over it all the time. There is lots on info about on the apricity.

[Ar-Man]

I saw people on some site similar to Skadi talking about how the Muslim conquests of Europe effected certain European groups genetically, in other words gave them semitic/non-european admixture. I know a bit about the Muslim conquests but I was wondering if what they were saying is true or not. If they did effect them, what is the 'genetic contribution' of the arabs/berbers to the Iberian/Southern European gene pool? Who was effected the most? Were they effected at all? Thanks guys.



All those conquests are nothing if you compare with what happens today!

[Ar-Man]

I don't know about other places, but under Ottoman empire - in Greece, there was a ''rule''
Muslim + Christian -> Muslim
Orthodox didn't allow mixed marriages,while Muslims did, and the kid after them was considered a Muslim.

That's why you can't see anymore those mongoloid/turanid turks.

[Lábaru]

Effects on the Iberian population were overwhelming. Our genes practice jihads every weekend.

xD the caliphate of Catalonia will never be independent xD

[Comte Arnau]

All those conquests are nothing if you compare with what happens today!

Whatever effects might have happened are indeed so little and deluded that comparing them to Muslim presence nowadays in any European country is almost laughable.


xD the caliphate of Catalonia will never be independent xD

Caliphates are for peoples who like being ruled by a caliph. We'll be the Almighty AllStingy Islamic Republic of Al-Kataluniya, the shariah being established for those who spend too many Catalan dinars.

[Absinthe]

Cotton hair, big noses, dark skin. Seems pretty much still there :coffee:


Aye, mate! :thumb001:

I am pretty sure, for example, that if I walked among the natives in Morocco, no one would be able to tell the difference. When I was in Istanbul, I was greeted in Turkish, too. It remains to see what happens in Jeddah. Hell, I'll be the spy of four continents (all except the European one) :D

[morski]

Now that you have mentioned it there is something Moroccan about you;)

[Gaztelu]

Before I thought exactly the same but when spaniards regained total control of the peninsula they kicked all muslims back to Africa (including their mistresses and mixed offspring). Of course there were some conversos who stayed but not thaaaaat much.

This pretty much sums up the nature of the North African genetic influence in the peninsula.

[Hurrem sultana]

Aye, mate! :thumb001:

I am pretty sure, for example, that if I walked among the natives in Morocco, no one would be able to tell the difference. When I was in Istanbul, I was greeted in Turkish, too. It remains to see what happens in Jeddah. Hell, I'll be the spy of four continents (all except the European one) :D

you could pass in black Africa too :coffee:



:D

[Panopticon]

Conquerors rarely make any significant genetic impact.

This doesn't speak much for the whole of Southern-Europe, but certainly the Balkans: http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb366/HerrAbubu/IMG_0020-1.jpg

[Zephyr]

"On April 9, 1609, King Philip III of Spain decreed the Expulsion of the Moriscos (Spanish: Expulsión de los moriscos, Catalan: Expulsió dels moriscos). The Moriscos were the descendants of the Muslim population that converted to Christianity under threat of exile from Ferdinand and Isabella in 1502. From 1609 through 1614, the Spanish government systematically forced Moriscos to leave the kingdom for Muslim North Africa."

"In 1609, there were approximately 325,000 Moriscos in Spain out of a total population of 8.5 million. They were concentrated in the former kingdoms of Aragon, where they constituted 20% of the population, and the Valencia area specifically, where they were 33% of the total population.".

"The expulsion was impressively well-run. The state had kept careful catalogs of the status of its residents, and the bureaucracy functioned efficiently to channel such a huge number of people out of the country over a short period of time."

"it is estimated that perhaps 10,000 Moriscos remained in Spain after the expulsion officially completed, mostly in Castile"


Best thing that ever happened during the troubled 60 years of Spanish-Portuguese union, 1580-1640. An example for all other nations whose natives have happily welcomed all sorts of hordes among them. But soon everything will come to and end. Europe will become the Jewnited States of Mongrelia.

[European blood]

Regional Admixture Analysis of European and Neighboring Populations

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2011-08-01.pdf

[Albion]

Hmm, interesting topic. It would appear that the genetic contribution was rather significant according to most of the data: "A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html

Of course, citing inconvenient facts can lead one to being called a "troll" around here in some cases...

I think these are mainly pre-Muslim. The Med had shared genetic links to some extent since the Neolithic and via the Phonecians, Greeks and Romans.
Arabs may have left some of it because we know some North African Moors settled (Arabised Berbers) and these people had related haplogroups anyway.
But most Moors were expelled during the reconquista, but some small populations may have survived.

[Supreme American]

Participants of Portuguese beauty contest in Switherland

http://i36.tinypic.com/flg2eo.jpg

About half of them look like mestizas, and one looks like she's about 1/4 black. I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.

[Hess]

The Anatolian/West Asian/ Caucasus (whatever you want to call it) in some European countries dates back to antiquity(with the exception of Moor admix in Sicilians, which dates back to the middle ages)

[Hess]

About half of them look like mestizas, and one looks like she's about 1/4 black. I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.

:eek:

I suggest you brush up on your taxonomy skills- NONE of them look like Mestizas except for one or two. Talk about American ignorance.

[Nairi]

The Anatolian/West Asian/ Caucasus

The right term as you already know is Armenian Highland changed by the West's best ally Turkey for political reasons ;)

[StonyArabia]

Aye, mate! :thumb001:

I am pretty sure, for example, that if I walked among the natives in Morocco, no one would be able to tell the difference. When I was in Istanbul, I was greeted in Turkish, too. It remains to see what happens in Jeddah. Hell, I'll be the spy of four continents (all except the European one) :D

You look somewhat Lebanese. However as an Arabian from the highlands of Nejid you are noticeably different from them. This because the people there tend to be dark skinned and of short height the females tend to be around 5'2 and the males tend to be around 5'4. You can pass as North African and Tunisian and Lebanese, but reaching Iraq and Arabia it makes somewhat difficult.

[Damião de Góis]

About half of them look like mestizas, and one looks like she's about 1/4 black. I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.

If we picked only the ones with the lightest skins do you think the group photo would look like that? :rolleyes:

[Incal]

:eek:

I suggest you brush up on your taxonomy skills- NONE of them look like Mestizas except for one or two. Talk about American ignorance.

To the average yank: Blue eyes + Blonde hair = White.

Everything else must be some kind of non white mix.

[Raskolnikov]

About half of them look like mestizas, and one looks like she's about 1/4 black. I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.
What on earth are you talking about?

[Ar-Man]

Whatever effects might have happened are indeed so little and deluded that comparing them to Muslim presence nowadays in any European country is almost laughable.



Generally when people get invaded by somebody, they don't mix because there's a huge tension between them. :)
What's happening today it's very different, it's a demographic invasion without any weapon, quite wise and intelligent technique, and so called "open minded" Europeans have no problem to mix with those populations, so it's not comparable with Muslim conquests of Spain.

And the most tricky and wise of all them are Chinese people, that you don't notice generally, because they are quite and respectful (which is more dangerous) :) If things will go this way, the future of humanity will be the mongoloid race.

[Hess]

To the average yank: Blue eyes + Blonde hair = White.

Everything else must be some kind of non white mix.

Yup. Though I must say that not all Yanks are that ignorant, thank god. There are those who are in touch with their European roots who have studied anthropology like Geistfaust- they are a rare breed but they do exist.

And let's not forget that technically I am a Yank as well :p

[Savant]

Why do you guys always act like this when presented with genetic facts about Iberians? A lot of you guys act like everyone is trying to say you are Yemenis or something. FWIW it seems like Catalans and Basques were most able to escape the admixture. In any case, there was admixture, it is documented. How do you explain that one in 5 Iberians has yDNA sigs identical to Sephardi Jews, and 1 in 10 has them identical to Moores? I don't get why this can not be mentioned without tantrums being thrown. Hopefully there will be able to be some maturity in this dialogue.


Effects on the Iberian population were overwhelming. Our genes practice jihads every weekend.

[Savant]

Conquerors rarely make any significant genetic impact.




LOL! Reeeely? I guess you're unfamiliar with Central and South America, done consequently by: Iberians...

[European blood]

http://tenthmedieval.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/piis0002929708005922-gr2-lrg.jpg?w=490

http://tenthmedieval.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/piis0002929708005922-gr4-lrg.jpg?w=510

[Stars Down To Earth]

That's why you can't see anymore those mongoloid/turanid turks.
Aye. The mongoloid Turks did leave genetic traces in Southeastern Europe, although those are relatively small. The locals already looked like "Meds" long before the Turks came around. As a rule, the Turks didn't bring their own women with them, but were conquering steppe nomads who fucked the local women wherever they went, and the kids were raised as Turks. As they overran Anatolia and eventually Southeastern Europe, they gradually changed their own genes. Where do you think blond blue-eyed Kemal Ataturk came from?

So it's the Turks who have absorbed Greek/Armenian/Balkan genes, rather than the other way around. If not, they would've looked like their Turkic cousins in Uzbekistan.

[Ar-Man]

Aye. The mongoloid Turks did leave genetic traces in Southeastern Europe, although those are relatively small. The locals already looked like "Meds" long before the Turks came around. As a rule, the Turks didn't bring their own women with them, but were conquering steppe nomads who fucked the local women wherever they went, and the kids were raised as Turks. As they overran Anatolia and eventually Southeastern Europe, they gradually changed their own genes. Where do you think blond blue-eyed Kemal Ataturk came from?

So it's the Turks who have absorbed Greek/Armenian/Balkan genes, rather than the other way around. If not, they would've looked like their Turkic cousins in Uzbekistan.

That was my point ! :)

[Zephyr]

http://tenthmedieval.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/piis0002929708005922-gr4-lrg.jpg?w=510

So, according to this graphic, Alex Delarge may not even be 50% "iberian", as his jewish ancestry is about 37% and the arab 15%.

Makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that Portugal was a jewish paradise. Actually 37% of our medieval poetry was written in hebrew and every church had Talmud lectures in 37% of liturgical services.

[Johnston]

Maybe opposite sides of the argument should provide evidence for miscegenation and for purity. Can each do each equally, or is there a winner?

[hajduk]

Aye. The mongoloid Turks did leave genetic traces in Southeastern Europe, although those are relatively small. The locals already looked like "Meds" long before the Turks came around. As a rule, the Turks didn't bring their own women with them, but were conquering steppe nomads who fucked the local women wherever they went, and the kids were raised as Turks. As they overran Anatolia and eventually Southeastern Europe, they gradually changed their own genes. Where do you think blond blue-eyed Kemal Ataturk came from?

So it's the Turks who have absorbed Greek/Armenian/Balkan genes, rather than the other way around. If not, they would've looked like their Turkic cousins in Uzbekistan.

Modern Turks are primarily remnants of the Byzantine Anatolian people who lived there before the Ottoman occupation. The mongoloid genetic component is visible, but they do have mixture from Negros and dark Middle Eastern groups. (Turks brought with them gypsies, africans and others) so judge them by their appearance most of them do have.

[European blood]

So, according to this graphic, Alex Delarge may not even be 50% "iberian", as his jewish ancestry is about 37% and the arab 15%.

Makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that Portugal was a jewish paradise. Actually 37% of our medieval poetry was written in hebrew and every church had Talmud lectures in 37% of liturgical services.

Watch this video if you want to have a laugh.

Vn42Hp7SPBc

[Anthropologique]

More fraudulent crap about Iberian genetics and the "Moors" and Jews!? :eek:

Come on people, you must be smarter than that.:cool: Most of the North African markers in Iberia are ancient and quite low. Autosomally (that's what's pertinent), Portugal averages out at around 5% and Spain 2.5-3%. And the Middle Eastern / Arabid influences are next to nothing and far lower than any number of other Euro countries. Iberia is majority Atlantic followed by West-Med.

[Anthropologique]

So, according to this graphic, Alex Delarge may not even be 50% "iberian", as his jewish ancestry is about 37% and the arab 15%.

Makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that Portugal was a jewish paradise. Actually 37% of our medieval poetry was written in hebrew and every church had Talmud lectures in 37% of liturgical services.

Complete rubbish. LOL.

[hajduk]

Atlantic like the UK ? :D Iberians are simply med with some atlantic.

[Anthropologique]

To the average yank: Blue eyes + Blonde hair = White.

Everything else must be some kind of non white mix.

Yes, to the average ignorant, uninformed, brain dead Yank - and others.

[Anthropologique]

Participants of Portuguese beauty contest in Switherland

http://i36.tinypic.com/flg2eo.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/34xfeix.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/27ymhk4.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/15g35w4.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/20q1apw.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/9lkeua.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/jzw8lg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/vaqh0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/v6o0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28upxye.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2iqc1vt.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/fcplat.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/11jsswk.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/t7fvd3.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2utonsx.jpg

At least one is not native Portuguese, but mixed.

[Anthropologique]

:eek:

I suggest you brush up on your taxonomy skills- NONE of them look like Mestizas except for one or two. Talk about American ignorance.

Incredibly stupid comments he made. No clue...

[Anthropologique]

Watch this video if you want to have a laugh.

Vn42Hp7SPBc

Moronic.

[Anthropologique]

Atlantic like the UK ? :D Iberians are simply med with some atlantic.

Iberians are more Atlantic in phenotype, and Atlanto Med is part of that. And, What is your definition of Med?

There is variance along the Atlantic Facade, light to darker, but certain features hold, so there is a common thread that one can pinpoint between Facade countries. No, most Brits don't really look like Spaniards or Portuguese in a full sense, but equivalencies exist.

I love how we have so many slanted classification "experts" on this forum. Makes for such fun.

[Sikeliot]

I can't believe, given modern genetic studies, that people are still trying to claim that Portuguese people are ~30% Moorish or whatnot. Look at where they cluster on 23andme and you'll know there is no way they could have ended up clustering where they do now if they were like 30% Moorish.

[Anthropologique]

About half of them look like mestizas, and one looks like she's about 1/4 black. I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.

I suppose you also think that a recent Miss Brittany (photo attached) is a mestiza as well.:rolleyes:

Oh, by the way, I didn't know that Danes were mullato. LOL!

[Anthropologique]

I can't believe, given modern genetic studies, that people are still trying to claim that Portuguese people are ~30% Moorish or whatnot. Look at where they cluster on 23andme and you'll know there is no way they could have ended up clustering where they do now if they were like 30% Moorish.

That's because you have deranged, mendacious people who take perverted pleasure is spreading non truths about Portuguese / Iberian people to make themselves feel better. These are sociopathic and psychopathic fraudsters who will self-hate until they expire. Look at some of the pathetic examples we have here; Savant who is pathologically obsessed with lying about Iberians. A waste of time.

[Lábaru]

Atlantic like the UK ? :D Iberians are simply med with some atlantic.


Uk is more Nordid and Keltic Nordid and Atlanto Nordid and Bulgaria is East Med+Indianoid with some of pontid :)

[Anthropologique]

Uk is more Nordid and Keltic Nordid and Atlanto Nordid and Bulgaria is East Med+Indianoid with some of pontid :)

What you run into in Iberia is more CM-Atlantids, Alpine-Atlantids and Altlanto-Meds than in the UK. There is a modest minority of Nordid-Atlantids in Spain and Portugal as well. The true "Med" element in the Iberian Peninsula is a substantial minority and mostly West-Med.

[hajduk]

Uk is more Nordid and Keltic Nordid and Atlanto Nordid and Bulgaria is East Med+Indianoid with some of pontid :)

+ additional Iranid, Mongoloid and weddoid :D

[Amapola]

It's a really boring topic, extremely repeated over the years on forums, but I will make one last effort...

I will speak for Iberia and let others speak for themselves:

Even for people that don't understand genetics it is easy to imagine this: 7000 berbers, 16000 Sirians against 350000 Visigoths and 6 milions of natives.What could this do virtually to the genetic pool of a land? Very little.

Especially taking into account that part of Sirians left to Damasco with their leader, Muza, who was called back. Part of the berbers left back due to famines and drought. And any other reinforcements were very minoritary in number compared with the natives.

It was obviously a cultural invasion, NOT biological :D, but it's even closer to say it was a Civil War with the help of the Muslims on one side. The rest is known to all.

[Raikaswinþs]

? I wasn't trying to be mean or smart assish by posting this, I was honestly curious.. I've seen people talk about it and some say that there is admixture and others don't.. I've honestly just been curious. I don't know why you made a sarcastic response..

C'mon admit it, you were being at least 12.5% smart-assish :p

[Anthropologique]

It's a really boring topic, extremely repeated over the years on forums, but I will make one last effort...

I will speak for Iberia and let others speak for themselves:

Even for people that don't understand genetics it is easy to imagine this: 7000 berbers, 16000 Sirians against 350000 Visigoths and 6 milions of natives.What could this do virtually to the genetic pool of a land? Very little.

Especially taking into account that part of Sirians left to Damasco with their leader, Muza, who was called back. Part of the berbers left back due to famines and drought. And any other reinforcements were very minoritary in number compared with the natives.

It was obviously a cultural invasion, NOT biological :D, but it's even closer to say it was a Civil War with the help of the Muslims on one side. The rest is known to all.

Additionally, the Celts and Proto-Celts were in Iberia for well over 1,000 years. At one time they made up close to 3/4 of the population. The Iberian genetic substrate has few Near Eastern influences.

[Raikaswinþs]

Additionally, the Celts and Proto-Celts were in Iberia for well over 1,000 years. At one time they made up close to 3/4 of the population. The Iberian genetic substrate has few Near Eastern influences.

nah, 1 in 5 is a jew...I like that...that gives us 1 in 5 chances to be ruling the world again soon :D in the shadows of course. What's more, Jews being all cultural marxists and favouring miscegenation fits extremely well with our mongrelling nature. You know, we filling the world with halfcastes as every Joe McArthy in this world can tell you.


Jerusalem je Sefarad!

They can keep on hating. Meanwhile....

http://static6.conlaseleccion.lavanguardia.es/data/articles/000/068/682/normal.jpg?1293383364

http://estaticos02.marca.com/imagenes/2011/12/04/tenis/copa_davis/1323015907_extras_noticia_foton_7_1.jpg

http://betssoncdn.s3.amazonaws.com/es/files/2011/09/Espana-gana-Eurobasket.jpg

http://www.bicycle.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/corvos_contador_podium_tdf_2009.jpg

[Treffie]

I can't believe, given modern genetic studies, that people are still trying to claim that Portuguese people are ~30% Moorish or whatnot. Look at where they cluster on 23andme and you'll know there is no way they could have ended up clustering where they do now if they were like 30% Moorish.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/gallery/haters-gonna-hate/haters-gonna-hate-puffin.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

That's because you have deranged, mendacious people who take perverted pleasure is spreading non truths about Portuguese / Iberian people to make themselves feel better. These are sociopathic and psychopathic fraudsters who will self-hate until they expire. Look at some of the pathetic examples we have here; Savant who is pathologically obsessed with lying about Iberians. A waste of time.


It's more like:

Gypsy fad in Europe in the Romantic era > English/French travellers into Iberia associate it with Gypsies (Borrow, Mérimé/Bizet...) > Iberia becomes an 'exotic Paradise' for Romantics associated with Gypsies and Moor heritage; Byron; Irving writes Tales of the Alhambra > Profit from that fame by the locals: popularisation of this. Flamenco. Lorca > Classical Hollywood (Old Spaniards look like Charlton Heston, Modern Spaniards look like Gypsies) > Modern Hollywood (Old Spaniards look like Gypsies, Modern Spaniards look like Mexicans).

[Anthropologique]

Dropped out in 10th grade, Now im getting a PH.D in Computer homeland defense and cashing in on a lot of big paychecks. I do not regret it one bit. Just have to know what your future plans are and have the motivation to do it. I dropped out a little bit ago, i tested right into college. :vampire At least, I have motivation, whereas Sandniggers like you don't have motivation.

Oh dear, the low-life, delusional behavior continues..."sand niggers" everywhere from Finland to Turkey. Little child, what part of the magic mushroom are you eating?:rolleyes: Weren't you asked to shut your miserable mouth? I suggest you take good heed, charlatan.

[Damião de Góis]

So, according to this graphic, Alex Delarge may not even be 50% "iberian", as his jewish ancestry is about 37% and the arab 15%.

Makes perfect sense. Everyone knows that Portugal was a jewish paradise. Actually 37% of our medieval poetry was written in hebrew and every church had Talmud lectures in 37% of liturgical services.

Nope, you didn't read the map right. That is not autosomal data, but just an haplogroup average count. The bars only indicate Y-DNA.
In my particular case, since i am R1b1b2a1a2 i guess i would be counted as "Iberian".

[Damião de Góis]

Watch this video if you want to have a laugh.


I stopped watching when they said that the Romans were kicked out by the Moors... :rolleyes:

[Comte Arnau]

Watch this video if you want to have a laugh.

Vn42Hp7SPBc

Os Romanos que acabaram corridos pelos mouros... :D

Text signed by a certain Victor Bandarra, which here means "slut". :p

[Damião de Góis]

Os Romanos que acabaram corridos pelos mouros... :D

Text signed by a certain Victor Bandarra, which here means "slut". :p

Irony:

"Falta rigor na informação"

http://historico.ensino.eu/2002/dez2002/em58-18.jpg

http://historico.ensino.eu/2002/dez2002/home.html

[Comte Arnau]

Irony:

"Falta rigor na informação"

http://historico.ensino.eu/2002/dez2002/em58-18.jpg

http://historico.ensino.eu/2002/dez2002/home.html

Lol. Reminds me of an extreme right-winged Spanish channel saying that they're the ones that offer "free information".

[Supreme American]

:eek:

I suggest you brush up on your taxonomy skills- NONE of them look like Mestizas except for one or two. Talk about American ignorance.

LOL, you live in Russia. What on earth do you know about what varieties of Mestizos look like besides nothing? I live in the American West, you're in Russia. Which of us is going to know the varied appearance of Mestizas? D'oh.

I'm attacked here for pointing out these people look like they have clear non-white admixture?

[Supreme American]

If we picked only the ones with the lightest skins do you think the group photo would look like that? :rolleyes:

Where did you get the silly idea I was only running on skin tone?

[Damião de Góis]

Where did you get the silly idea I was only running on skin tone?

You're right... how silly of me


I would assume that like in so many other countries, the ones picked for beauty contests are usually those with the lightest skins.

[Odoacer]

LOL, you live in Russia. What on earth do you know about what varieties of Mestizos look like besides nothing? I live in the American West, you're in Russia. Which of us is going to know the varied appearance of Mestizas? D'oh.

I'm attacked here for pointing out these people look like they have clear non-white admixture?

Actually, Hess lives in the U.S. - Florida, I think. Anyway, I lived for 18 years in California within 3 hours of the border, & I visit usually twice a year. Most of those women do not look like mestizas, sorry.

[Supreme American]

You're right... how silly of me

I didn't say I was running on skin tone in voicing my opinion about these females. There's a difference between that and pointing out a prevailing cultural influence to lighter skinned models.

I really shouldn't have to explain that.

[Supreme American]

Actually, Hess lives in the U.S. - Florida, I think. Anyway, I lived for 18 years in California within 3 hours of the border, & I visit usually twice a year. Most of those women do not look like mestizas, sorry.

A number of them do resemble light-skinned mestizas to me.

If you all want to attack me for that, go for it. I've gotten one negative reputation point for it, feel free to add more.

[Damião de Góis]

I didn't say I was running on skin tone in voicing my opinion about these females. There's a difference between that and pointing out a prevailing cultural influence to lighter skinned models.

I really shouldn't have to explain that.

Which is something that doesn't exist here at all. That was what i was replying anyway.

[Odoacer]

A number of them do resemble light-skinned mestizas to me.

There are several that, if they claimed to be mestiza, I would not question them - but they'd have to have quite dominant European heritage.


If you all want to attack me for that, go for it. I've gotten one negative reputation point for it, feel free to add more.

One cannot administer negative reputation unless one pays money to Loki ... ;)

[Damião de Góis]

Well, now i'm curious. Which ones are the mestizas? I don't think #7 is fully native by the way.

http://i38.tinypic.com/34xfeix.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/27ymhk4.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/15g35w4.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/20q1apw.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/9lkeua.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/jzw8lg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/vaqh0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/v6o0.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/28upxye.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2iqc1vt.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/fcplat.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/11jsswk.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/t7fvd3.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2utonsx.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

These two were missing from the original post:

http://i35.tinypic.com/w96txd.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/bdo775.jpg

[Han Cholo]

A number of them do resemble light-skinned mestizas to me.

If you all want to attack me for that, go for it. I've gotten one negative reputation point for it, feel free to add more.

Most light skinned mestizos are pred. Southwestern European which is the same component most Portuguese stem off. Portuguese people are not that different than Spaniards.

[Odoacer]

Alex, IMO, these are the only two that could "pass" as mestiza, because I've seen very similar looks in Mexican mestizas I've known:



http://i36.tinypic.com/27ymhk4.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/v6o0.jpg

But I'd have no reason to assume they were mestiza unless they were running around with Mexican gangbangers. :P

This one I assume is the one you think is non-native; she doesn't look mestiza at all to me, maybe some other kind of mix though:


http://i33.tinypic.com/vaqh0.jpg

None of the others resemble any mestizas I've seen.

[Anthropologique]

LOL, you live in Russia. What on earth do you know about what varieties of Mestizos look like besides nothing? I live in the American West, you're in Russia. Which of us is going to know the varied appearance of Mestizas? D'oh.

I'm attacked here for pointing out these people look like they have clear non-white admixture?

I see the circus has suddenly returned to town.:rolleyes2:

[Anthropologique]

Alex, IMO, these are the only two that could "pass" as mestiza, because I've seen very similar looks in Mexican mestizas I've known:



But I'd have no reason to assume they were mestiza unless they were running around with Mexican gangbangers. :P

This one I assume is the one you think is non-native; she doesn't look mestiza at all to me, maybe some other kind of mix though:



None of the others resemble any mestizas I've seen.


The third one in your post certainly looks tri-racial and can be found in ALL nations that were once major colonial powers.

You should see the mixed bloods in France and Belgium that enter beauty contests.

[d3cimat3d]

Iberia has as much SSA blood as eastern Europe has Asian blood. Some will be disappointed by that but it's the truth.

[Anthropologique]

Iberia has as much SSA blood as eastern Europe has Asian blood. Some will be disappointed by that but it's the truth.

So tell us, how much Asian blood does Eastern Europe have?

The most recent autosomal DNA (total heritage) research indicates an average of ~ 2% or less for Iberia as a whole, and the consensus is that most of it is extremely old. Be careful of making blanket statements. Frankly, with all the advancements in human population genetics, I thought more people would be better informed.

I hope you are not referring to haplogroups because they essentially concern ancestral migrations. Finally, the identified SSA in Iberia is almost all from the maternal side.

[Osweo]

To make it easier at a glance, I took the famous pic that's always posted of the male line haplogroup map by Iberian region;
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9427/3239345533372807ceafo.png

I coloured the 'E3b2' part red, it being the most prevalent Moorish lineage. As we can see, there are parts of Spain utter lacking in it, and others with just a bit. Interestingly, the parts with most of it are those in which the Moors never ruled securely. The place where they were present longest, Granada (bottom right of the peninsula), has comparatively little of it.

Indeed, the fact that E3b2 has been 'shoved' into the west of the peninsula, might well be interpreted as showing that most of its presence here is PRE-historic. Incoming Celtic and Vasconic people seem to have shunted it aside as they moved from the East, their men displacing earlier male lineages.

[Anthropologique]

To make it easier at a glance, I took the famous pic that's always posted of the male line haplogroup map by Iberian region;
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9427/3239345533372807ceafo.png

I coloured the 'E3b2' part red, it being the most prevalent Moorish lineage. As we can see, there are parts of Spain utter lacking in it, and others with just a bit. Interestingly, the parts with most of it are those in which the Moors never ruled securely. The place where they were present longest, Granada (bottom right of the peninsula), has comparatively little of it.

Indeed, the fact that E3b2 has been 'shoved' into the west of the peninsula, might well be interpreted as showing that most of its presence here is PRE-historic. Incoming Celtic and Vasconic people seem to have shunted it aside as they moved from the west, their men displacing earlier male lineages.


And what some people do not understand, or conveniently choose to ignore (for bizarre psychological reasons?) is that ancient migrations across North Africa also brought with it practically all the SSA found in Iberia and to some other regions as well.

[d3cimat3d]

So tell us, how much Asian blood does Eastern Europe have?

Excluding Russia, up to 3%. But this is not a who is more pure Euro contest but just about genetic reality.


The most recent autosomal DNA (total heritage) research indicates an average of ~ 2% or less for Iberia in total, and the consensus is that most of it is extremely old.

Old or not, it's still there.



Be careful of making blanket statements. Frankly, with all the advancements in human population genetics, I thought more people would be better informed.


Hey, it is what it is. Spaniards have a percent or two SSA blood, Portuguese have a bit more.



I hope you are not referring to haplogroups because they essentially concern ancestral migrations.

No, I'm talking of autosomal dna, not haplogroups. Here are the Dodecad Euro7 Results of some Iberians:

Skyspectacles (half Azorean, half Portuguese main-lander w/ some minor Flemish ancestry):

2.45% Caucasus
40.57% Northwestern
0.02% Northeastern
11.46% Southeastern
2.54% African
0.65% Far_Asian
42.31% Southwestern

Alex Delarge (Portuguese):

2.71% Caucasus
32.05% Northwestern
3.81% Northeastern
11.14% Southeastern
2.75% African
0.00% Far_Asian
47.54% Southwestern

Kadu (north Portuguese)

46.62% Southwestern
36.68% Northwestern
11.83% Southeastern
2.39% African
1% Northeastern
0.57% Caucasus
0.40% Far_Asian

http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=181974#post181974

[Anthropologique]

Excluding Russia, up to 3%. But this is not a who is more pure Euro contest but just about genetic reality.



Old or not, it's still there.



Hey, it is what it is. Spaniards have a percent or two SSA blood, Portuguese have a bit more.



No, I'm talking of autosomal dna, not haplogroups. Here are the Dodecad Euro7 Results of some Iberians:

Skyspectacles (half Azorean, half Portuguese main-lander w/ some minor Flemish ancestry):

2.45% Caucasus
40.57% Northwestern
0.02% Northeastern
11.46% Southeastern
2.54% African
0.65% Far_Asian
42.31% Southwestern

Alex Delarge (Portuguese):

2.71% Caucasus
32.05% Northwestern
3.81% Northeastern
11.14% Southeastern
2.75% African
0.00% Far_Asian
47.54% Southwestern

Kadu (north Portuguese)

46.62% Southwestern
36.68% Northwestern
11.83% Southeastern
2.39% African
1% Northeastern
0.57% Caucasus
0.40% Far_Asian

http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=181974#post181974

You're dealing with very minor percentages that have no effect on phenotype. Iberians realize total Euro scores, in some cases, as high as 93-94%, with the highest Western, Northern and North Atlantic scores in southern Europe.

[Transhumanist]

I like to look at autosomal STR, autosomal SNP, Y-DNA, and mtDNA. Most frequently, the latter three. One indication that at least some of the African components present in some modern European populations may have a more ancient, rather than recent origin, is the presence of mtDNA L.

This is taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro-haplogroup_L_(mtDNA)#Europe). If recent findings are not consistent with the quoted bits below, please refer me to the published source(s).


In Europe, haplogroup L is found at low frequencies, typically less than 1%, with the exception of Iberia where frequencies as high as 18.2% have been reported and some regions of Italy where frequencies between 2 and 3% have been found.

In Iberia the frequency is higher in Portugal (5.83%) than in Spain where frequencies of (1.61%). Furthermore, in western Iberia, increasing frequencies are observed for Galicia (3.26%) and northern Portugal (3.21%), through the center (5.02%) and to the south of Portugal (11.38%).[21] Relatively high frequencies of 7.40% and 8.30% was also reported respectively in South Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and in the present population of Priego de Cordoba by Casas et al. 2006.[22] Significant frequencies were also found in the Autonomous regions of Portugal, with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira and 3.4 % in the Azores. In the spanish archipelago of Canary Islands, frequencies have been reported at 6.6%.[23] According to some researchers L lineages in Iberia are associated to Islamic invasions, while for others it may be due to more ancient processes as well as more recent ones through the introduction of these lineages by means of the modern slave trade. The highest frequency (18.2%) of Sub-Saharan lineages found so far in Europe were observed by Alvarez et al. 2010 in the comarca of Sayago which is according to the authors "comparable to that described for the South of Portugal".[24][25]

In Italy, Haplogroup L lineages are present in some regions at frequencies between 2 and 3% in Latium (2.90%), Tuscany,[19] Basilicata and Sicily.[26]

[Transhumanist]

[V]oting Assyrians whose pics she posted would fit in Portugal and I proved with these pics...

Let me also add that I do not believe Assyrians and Portuguese, generally speaking, look similar. Portuguese are exceedingly European. We, of course, are not. And this is reflected in the phenotypic distinctions between the two people. Photos of Assyrian women. Mostly from the same function:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169627056_1762069549_296522_3222885_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169587055_1762069549_296521_5922403_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169667057_1762069549_296523_3645634_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169747059_1762069549_296525_3444635_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37532_1155694070163_1762069549_308968_69803_n.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37591_1155694510174_1762069549_308977_5472660_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/38119_1155766351970_1762069549_309099_7177808_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37500_1155766951985_1762069549_309109_8049082_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34874_1155767191991_1762069549_309115_8070154_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/38894_1159326680976_1762069549_317687_5585776_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37504_1159327761003_1762069549_317693_6599313_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37821_1159330481071_1762069549_317708_3586948_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/40313_1160419468295_1762069549_321084_4586417_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/39039_1162749686549_1762069549_325693_7807454_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/47267_1176123300881_1762069549_354936_4940277_n.jp g

[Anthropologique]

Let me also add that I do not believe Assyrians and Portuguese, generally speaking, look similar. Portuguese are exceedingly European. We, of course, are not. And this is reflected in the phenotypic distinctions between the two people. Photos of Assyrian women. Mostly from the same function:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169627056_1762069549_296522_3222885_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169587055_1762069549_296521_5922403_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169667057_1762069549_296523_3645634_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169747059_1762069549_296525_3444635_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37532_1155694070163_1762069549_308968_69803_n.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37591_1155694510174_1762069549_308977_5472660_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/38119_1155766351970_1762069549_309099_7177808_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37500_1155766951985_1762069549_309109_8049082_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34874_1155767191991_1762069549_309115_8070154_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/38894_1159326680976_1762069549_317687_5585776_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37504_1159327761003_1762069549_317693_6599313_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/37821_1159330481071_1762069549_317708_3586948_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/40313_1160419468295_1762069549_321084_4586417_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/39039_1162749686549_1762069549_325693_7807454_n.jp g
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/47267_1176123300881_1762069549_354936_4940277_n.jp g

Indeed, it is very rare to find Assyrians passing as Portuguese. Thank you for setting the record straight and putting some agenda driven people in their place. Of the pictures you posted, maybe two or three could pass as native in Portugal and those may well be part European.

[Sikeliot]

Of those Assyrians only this one could pass as Portuguese

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169627056_1762069549_296522_3222885_n.jp g

[Anthropologique]

The 11th one down could pass, based on her profile.

[WilliamWallace]

Of those Assyrians only this one could pass as Portuguese

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/34919_1149169627056_1762069549_296522_3222885_n.jp g

are you joking? They all can be portuguese except the last one brunette.

[Lábaru]

are you joking? They all can be portuguese except the last one brunette.


In fact more than one can pass as British xD xD

[Anthropologique]

A majority wouldn't pass as "general range" native Portuguese and would be viewed as atypical locally. In any case, I don't believe that many of the persons posted are very typical Assyrians.

Here are some group frames of indigenous Portuguese for comparison:

[Incal]

In fact more than one can pass as British xD xD

In some 50 years, anybody will pass for british xD

[WilliamWallace]

In fact more than one can pass as British xD xD

for sure they can pass for Europeans except this one

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/47267_1176123300881_1762069549_354936_4940277_n.jp g[/IMG]

and probably other 2 or 3 who look a bit exotic.

But I don't understand what are the Assyrians, I knew that they were an ancient population who lived in Iraq. That's what I learned at school.

Are nowadays still people from Iraq?
If yes, all the women in those pictures are very atypical for that geographical area.

[Sikeliot]

All off-topic deleted and reopened.. now behave, and stop with the arguing. Thanks.

[StonyArabia]

for sure they can pass for Europeans except this one


and probably other 2 or 3 who look a bit exotic.

But I don't understand what are the Assyrians, I knew that they were an ancient population who lived in Iraq. That's what I learned at school.

Are nowadays still people from Iraq?
If yes, all the women in those pictures are very atypical for that geographical area.

Iraqi Arabs cluster with the Arabian peoples, and are not the same as Assyrians, albeit with a few in the North. The closest relatives to the people of Iraq are the Saudis and Yemenite Jews. Iraqi(Bedouins and Marsh Arabs) have tribal names indicating Arabian origins and bloodlines. The mtDNA of Iraqi Arabs is more similar to that of Saudis and Yemenite Jews than it's to Assyrians for example. Assyrians are more West Asian, well Iraqi Arabs are more SouthWest Asian. They are not the same people.

[Hess]

LOL, you live in Russia. What on earth do you know about what varieties of Mestizos look like besides nothing? I live in the American West, you're in Russia. Which of us is going to know the varied appearance of Mestizas? D'oh.

I've been living in America for the last 6 years (including Florida) so I think I've seen my fair share of Mestizas, thank you very much.


I'm attacked here for pointing out these people look like they have clear non-white admixture?

All I am saying is that none (save for maybe 1 or 2 and probably not even that) look like they have native admix. There are certain traits to look for, and they just don't have them. Don't believe me? get Agrippa in here.


D'oh indeed :rolleyes:

[Anthropologique]

I've been living in America for the last 6 years (including Florida) so I think I've seen my fair share of Mestizas, thank you very much.



All I am saying is that none (save for maybe 1 or 2 and probably not even that) look like they have native admix. There are certain traits to look for, and they just don't have them. Don't believe me? get Agrippa in here.


D'oh indeed :rolleyes:

Only one is admixed and she looks tri-racial. Like that's some big deal. Go to England, France, Germany and see what you find there.

It seems that it's always the hate dominated, low self esteem, poorly informed characters that make racial and genetic assertions they can never buttress. This place has several of these imbeciles. Spongebob minds.:eek:

[Zephyr]

All off-topic deleted and reopened.. now behave, and stop with the arguing. Thanks.

And in the process you took the chance to erase my reply to your claim, instead of splitting the relevant discussion.

I don't know what happened while I was sleeping, but I saw you putting Sumerians in the semitic-looking bag, to what I felt a reply was needed.

As I said, there was nothing semitic in Sumerians. It's like confusing Egypt with ancient Egypt, to put it mildly.

[Boudica]

And in the process you took the chance to erase my reply to your claim, instead of splitting the relevant discussion.

I don't know what happened while I was sleeping, but I saw you putting Sumerians in the semitic-looking bag, to what I felt a reply was needed.

As I said, there was nothing semitic in Sumerians. It's like confusing Egypt with ancient Egypt, to put it mildly.

Where were the Sumerians mentioned?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Oh dear, the low-life, delusional behavior continues..."sand niggers" everywhere from Finland to Turkey. Little child, what part of the magic mushroom are you eating?:rolleyes: Weren't you asked to shut your miserable mouth? I suggest you take good heed, charlatan.

There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

[Abenjaldún]

It's a really boring topic, extremely repeated over the years on forums, but I will make one last effort...

I will speak for Iberia and let others speak for themselves:

Even for people that don't understand genetics it is easy to imagine this: 7000 berbers, 16000 Sirians against 350000 Visigoths and 6 milions of natives.What could this do virtually to the genetic pool of a land? Very little.

Especially taking into account that part of Sirians left to Damasco with their leader, Muza, who was called back. Part of the berbers left back due to famines and drought. And any other reinforcements were very minoritary in number compared with the natives.

It was obviously a cultural invasion, NOT biological :D, but it's even closer to say it was a Civil War with the help of the Muslims on one side. The rest is known to all.

Almost correct...

But the Berbers and "Moors" were Christians, probably.

And indeed it was a Civil War.

[Libertas]

Were the Berbers who invaded Spain not recently converted to Islam?

[Abenjaldún]

Iberia has as much SSA blood as eastern Europe has Asian blood. Some will be disappointed by that but it's the truth.

No...

Eastern Europe (some parts) has much more Asian blood than Spain SSA.

[Abenjaldún]

To make it easier at a glance, I took the famous pic that's always posted of the male line haplogroup map by Iberian region;
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9427/3239345533372807ceafo.png

I coloured the 'E3b2' part red, it being the most prevalent Moorish lineage. As we can see, there are parts of Spain utter lacking in it, and others with just a bit. Interestingly, the parts with most of it are those in which the Moors never ruled securely. The place where they were present longest, Granada (bottom right of the peninsula), has comparatively little of it.

Indeed, the fact that E3b2 has been 'shoved' into the west of the peninsula, might well be interpreted as showing that most of its presence here is PRE-historic. Incoming Celtic and Vasconic people seem to have shunted it aside as they moved from the East, their men displacing earlier male lineages.

Very revealing... If you REALLY want to find it revealing.

An innocent question: which Spaniards resettled the West of Andalusia?

[Abenjaldún]

It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

Because North Euros come from Mars, probably... Or maybe they are the best.

But little things like this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/EU-Glob_opta_presentation.png/629px-EU-Glob_opta_presentation.png

usually influence...

Look: Spaniards are even more exposed to insolation than Turks!

[Hess]

There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

On one hand, the Greeks have had considerable west Asian admix since antiquity. on the other hand, they laid the foundation of western civilization.

I'd rather be a woggish west Asian influenced Greek than a platinum blonde, sapphire eyed Estonian who contributed, uh, nothing important.

[StonyArabia]

Were the Berbers who invaded Spain not recently converted to Islam?

The Berbers were converted by the Yemenites who invaded North Africa. The Berber resistance to the Yemenite invaders was heavy, and unlike the Persians and the Syriac Byzantines were not defeated easily, and there was no Arabian tribes that held grudges as there was in the Byzantine and Persian empire, who hailed the Arab Muslim invaders as liberators where the majority often came from the highlands of Nejid and Yemen. Once the Berber converted to Islam, they began to invade Iberia under the Yemenite leadership. There was a continuing power struggle between the Yemenites and Berbers, that eventually made it possible to throw the Moors back into North Africa. For example the this power struggle formed the most powerful of all Moorish dynasties who were of Berber origins the Almovarids and Alomhads. However the last Moorish stronghold Grenada was held by the Yemenite Nasirid dynasty who were eventually defeated and expelled in 1492.

[Osweo]

Very revealing... If you REALLY want to find it revealing.
People called Ibn Haldun might wish to find things hidden there that aren't there, of course. :p

I was thinking about the population exchanges that occured very often in Spanish history too. Christian refugees from the south were often given homes in Leon and Asturias. Perhaps the higher levels of E3b in Galicia are connected with this? Naturally, being a CHRISTIAN refugee means that these were folks who had resisted the invaders, and so any 'North African' trace in their haplogroups will long predate the Islamic invasions. We're probably looking at traces of 'Libiofenicios', if not far older neolithic pioneers.

Looking at the less common 'non-European' haplogroups, like J, it should also be stated that they are found in a very different proportion to the E3b when we compare their relative frequencies among the Iberians and the Maghrebis.

IF the E3b were solely 'Moorish', we would expect it to have the same relative ratio to J in the modern Spanish. However, J is greater there, suggesting that the history is more complex.

Of course, it must be borne in mind that E3b is found in some degree even as far north as Lower Saxony. (Our own Low-German descended Admin here has it!) The clear conclusion is that R1b etc. didn't as fully oust these markers as they did beyond the Pyrenees.


An innocent question: which Spaniards resettled the West of Andalusia?
Dunno. There's a thread about the repoblaciones somewhere on the forum, though. From my admittedly limited awareness of Granadino surnames, there is a high Catalan/Aragonese and Basque element there in the east, of course. Is this less so in the west? Seems that Sevilla was more a continuation of Leon and Toledo's advance southward?

Looking at the map again, Sevilla and environs have an unusually high level of R1a compared to the rest of the peninsula, a haplogroup typically connected with east/central Europe. Looks like they got a lot of Godos swarming in, perhaps! Valencia, Leon and Aragon slightly less, among those with it too.

[Lábaru]

Very revealing... If you REALLY want to find it revealing.

An innocent question: which Spaniards resettled the West of Andalusia?

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

The fact is that it is true that the Moors of Granada were resettled throughout the rest of Castile.

Pero ni aún así justifica que haya más en Asturias que en Granada. De ser cierto es anterior a la conquista musulmana, en vez de Celtas albioneses hubo bereberes en Asturias xD xD xD

[Ibericus]

The genetic influence has been minimal. What's more, the arabic/near-east influence in Iberia is very low, compared to other europeans. And the north-african influence is also very low, around 2%. Actually Spain is genetically as european as other Western European countries.

[Savant]

No, you'll learn pretty quickly around here that Iberians all have "no more non European admixture than any other Europeans", that "no one is 100% Europeans", and that despite 800 years of colonization and rule by Moores, that this had almost zero genetic impact. Anything to the contrary is simply a "hateful agenda" to "slander Iberians" because they're "jealous" of them. (Yeah, really :confused: ) All those multiple, published, widely cited, well known studies which have been published everywhere from the NY Times to the most obscure academic journals, which show that Iberians have MORE Arab admixture than other nations, and that 1 in 10 Iberian men have identical yDNA signatures to North Africans, and 1 in 5 Iberian men have identical yDNA signatures to Sephardi Jews, they're all just "lies" and "distortions" because the whole sceintiifc community is in on the anti-Iberian conspiracy; they're "jealous" of them too I guess...

In any case, don't go raising these pesky little facts to advance your "agenda" because your so jealous and bitter of the great Iberians. Also, any notion that Iberians have darker phenotypes than anyone else in Europe is another hateful, jealous lie. All the hundreds of confirmations of this from the people who have been in Iberia, and all of the widespread media portrayals of them as being darker because they're in on this "agenda" too. Iberians all look just like vikings, and if you try to deny this we'll know you're in on this hateful agenda too!


There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

[Damião de Góis]

Of course, it must be borne in mind that E3b is found in some degree even as far north as Lower Saxony. (Our own Low-German descended Admin here has it!) The clear conclusion is that R1b etc. didn't as fully oust these markers as they did beyond the Pyrenees.


I think he has the balkan one, E1b1b1a. The one to look for is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b1b

[Osweo]

It's all America's fault anyway...

If there hadn't BEEN a New World, all of Iberia's energies would have been focussed on North Africa. The Berbers would have been brought back into Christendom, and even Egypt could have been made Coptic once more...

The North Africans would have been taught to behave like human beings once more, and now nobody would even care whether European lands had been 'contaminated' by their genes!

Ekh... :pout:

[Ibericus]

There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?
hmm... at Dodecad the near-eastern influence (west-asian + southwest-asian) is greater in Germany, Scandinavia, France, British, Dutch, etc than in Spaniards. Also, the sub-saharan of spaniards at Dodecad is exactly the same as in Slovenians.

[Ibericus]

Also, the 800 years thing is bullshit. After 300 years, already more than half of Iberia was Christian :

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ETesmGGMYgo/S8CY1REPT_I/AAAAAAAAABc/AVjmp88O6TY/s1600/mapa%2520al-andalus%5B1%5D.png

[Lábaru]

blah blah blah I have envy of Iberia bla blah blah I am fat guy.... blah blah

eh savant, Moors is better than Indian!

[StonyArabia]

eh savant, Moors is better than Indian!

I believe that to;) Moors >>>Amerindian

[Savant]

Ehh, all kinda the same shit to me... But if that's how you feel, ok.


eh savant, Moors is better than Indian!

[Lábaru]

Ehh, all kinda the same shit to me... But if that's how you feel, ok.

You are repetitive and "cansino", and I the same :)

[Osweo]

despite 800 years of colonization and rule by Moores,
:mmmm:

Ah!
:lightbul:
Woah, like Patrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore)Moore?
http://blogs.sundaymercury.net/weirdscience/rhs-patrick-moore.jpg.jpeg
Fuck yes!
See the video; http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/patrick+moore/ :thumb001:

everywhere from the NY Times
A very pro-Jewish newspaper. Newspapers always put stupid spin on any science story they cover, and in this case will love to slag off the nation that booted the Judios out good and proper. :coffee:


to the most obscure academic journals, which show that Iberians have MORE Arab admixture than other nations, and that 1 in 10 Iberian men have identical yDNA signatures to North Africans,
You seem to be conflating two vastly different peoples, there. :rolleyes:
Ah well, all you see is the towel on their head, I suppose. :coffee:


and 1 in 5 Iberian men have identical yDNA signatures to Sephardi Jews
Yes, there's a lot of Spaniard in the Sefardim. There's a lot in the modern North African too. Look at the R1b in Africa in the haplogroup map I showed. Obviously, there'll be a lot more FEMALE Iberian in these groups (thanks to sex-slavery), but I haven't seen a good enough diagram of the mitochondrial data for both sides of the Pillars of Hercules. Does anybody have one?

[Amapola]

People called Ibn Haldun might wish to find things hidden there that aren't there, of course. :p

I was thinking about the population exchanges that occured very often in Spanish history too. Christian refugees from the south were often given homes in Leon and Asturias. Perhaps the higher levels of E3b in Galicia are connected with this? Naturally, being a CHRISTIAN refugee means that these were folks who had resisted the invaders, and so any 'North African' trace in their haplogroups will long predate the Islamic invasions. We're probably looking at traces of 'Libiofenicios', if not far older neolithic pioneers.

Looking at the less common 'non-European' haplogroups, like J, it should also be stated that they are found in a very different proportion to the E3b when we compare their relative frequencies among the Iberians and the Maghrebis.

IF the E3b were solely 'Moorish', we would expect it to have the same relative ratio to J in the modern Spanish. However, J is greater there, suggesting that the history is more complex.

Of course, it must be borne in mind that E3b is found in some degree even as far north as Lower Saxony. (Our own Low-German descended Admin here has it!) The clear conclusion is that R1b etc. didn't as fully oust these markers as they did beyond the Pyrenees.

Dunno. There's a thread about the repoblaciones somewhere on the forum, though. From my admittedly limited awareness of Granadino surnames, there is a high Catalan/Aragonese and Basque element there in the east, of course. Is this less so in the west? Seems that Sevilla was more a continuation of Leon and Toledo's advance southward?

Looking at the map again, Sevilla and environs have an unusually high level of R1a compared to the rest of the peninsula, a haplogroup typically connected with east/central Europe. Looks like they got a lot of Godos swarming in, perhaps! Valencia, Leon and Aragon slightly less, among those with it too.

Masses of mozarabes fled to the north and masses of Moriscos were dispersed through Castilla, but I don't think the influx of Iberians north-south meant any radical change in our composition, and I suspect everything is much more ancient than that.

What "our" Abenjaldún wants to bring are Olagües' thesis that Islam was somewhat native to Hispania, which is a joke and it's obviously discredited by serious scholars.

The Repoblaciones of Granada are very fully studied and documented:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=422553&postcount=1

[Osweo]

Also, the 800 years thing is bullshit.

Heh, reminds me of Irish idiots who love to go on to the English about '800 years of oppression'! :D Seems to be a holy magic number, like the '6,000,000' of the Jews. :coffee:

[Ibericus]

Of course that study of the 1 in 5 jewish y-dna is pure crap from start to end, because they considered haplogroups such as G2a, J2, J1, etc as jewish contribution, when only J1 should be considered semitic, and it's only found at 1% in Iberians (which is average for Europe). Also the other near-east haplogroup J2 is found at 7-8% in Iberia, average also for Europe, same with G2a.

So, we can guess if we applied this same methodology to other european countries, the results would be much higher.

Another error of the study is that they took as a reference for the iberian contribution the Basques, when they are genetically an isolated population. Add to this the fact that Sephardics themselves also have some european admixture, thus to make a K=3 with Sephardics, Basques, and Moors as the only ancestral references and extrapolate it with iberians is a complete waste of time.

[Savant]

A very pro-Jewish newspaper. Newspapers always put stupid spin on any science story they cover, and in this case will love to slag off the nation that booted the Judios out good and proper. :coffee:

Yes, of course!!!

http://www.humblespeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wright2.jpg

Of course those blasted Jews are behind all of this. Because the Jews would want to try to falsely claim that Iberians have Jewish admixture!! Because it will make them look good... like... Iberians??? Because if there's any one random nation on Earth Jews would pick try to say has Jewish admixture for REVENGE for kicking out some Jews 69350283520 years ago, it would be SPAIN!! They have been plotting it this whole time!!! And they know tricking everyone with their bitter lies and saying Spain has Jewish admixture would make Spain look bad, because Jews see themselves as...bad...??? Yes, yes, they don't see themselves as elite or superior, no they see themselves as BAD and they were plotting this the whole time!!!


You seem to be conflating two vastly different peoples, there. :rolleyes:
Ah well, all you see is the towel on their head, I suppose. :coffee:

LOL! North Africans and Arabs are "two vastly different peoples?" You might want to let the population geneticists know that there professor. For some reason those jokers think that they're highly similar. In any case, I didn't make these assertions, the geneticists have. Over, and over, and over again. But of course, there can be no doubt that they are in on the anti Iberian conspiracy as well!!!


Yes, there's a lot of Spaniard in the Sefardim. There's a lot in the modern North African too. Look at the R1b in Africa in the haplogroup map I showed. Obviously, there'll be a lot more FEMALE Iberian in these groups (thanks to sex-slavery), but I haven't seen a good enough diagram of the mitochondrial data for both sides of the Pillars of Hercules. Does anybody have one?

Yes, because specific clades and subclades aren't relevant here at all, all that really matters is the very broad, widely distrubuted, highly varied Haplogroup of R1b! Any assertion that something as broad as a huge haplogroup like R1b is kind of meaningless in this debate is clearly trying to advance more anti Iberian LIES!! Let alone try introduce some crazy notion like autosomal data being relevant here!

[Savant]

Well, that's actually not what they said at all. They considered very many specific subclades within EACH haplogroup to be Jewish based on the fact that each of them had been established as originating from Jewish populations. :lol: You actually think that's how genetic research is done?! :pound: You think they just pick a few haploGROUPS and say "eh, these are probably Jewish, those are probably not." Did you do your studies at the Agrippa institute of population genetics or something?! :rofl: :lmao: :dielaughing: I guess it hasn't occurred to you that most Euro Jews are do not cluster with "semitic" populations? Oh well, it's good that you aren't letting all of these conspiracies to slander Iberians get to you! Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes!!!


Of course that study of the 1 in 5 jewish y-dna is pure crap from start to end, because they considered haplogroups such as G2a, J2, J1, etc as jewish contribution, when only J1 should be considered semitic, and it's only found at 1% in Iberians (which is average for Europe). Also the other near-east haplogroup J2 is found at 7-8% in Iberia, average also for Europe, same with G2a.

So, we can guess if we applied this same methodology to other european countries, the results would be much higher.

Another error of the study is that they took as a reference for the iberian contribution the Basques, when they are genetically an isolated population. Add to this the fact that Sephardics themselves also have some european admixture, thus to make a K=3 with Sephardics, Basques, and Moors as the only ancestral references and extrapolate it with iberians is a complete waste of time. There are more serious studies out there, and they use admixture, not weird calculations using only 3 reference populations.

[Osweo]

Of course those blasted Jews are behind all of this.
Those lads have long memories and are great at keeping grudges. It's all part of their success, reinforcing their unity. :shrug: I mentioned it as one factor, not as the main substance of my post anyway. You can save your eloquent ROFLs and LMAOs.

LOL! North Africans and Arabs are "two vastly different peoples?" You might want to let the population geneticists know that there professor. For some reason those jokers think that they're highly similar.
There are plots all over the net, sometimes in your own posts, showing that the link between the Berbers and the Europeans is THRU the Near Easterners, and that all three have some appreciable distance between each other.

The Berbers are of course a distant branch of the Near Easterners, who moved along the southern Mediterranean shore, but they've been in North Africa for many millennia, and assuming that they have not changed in this time is stupid.

Anyroad, look:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6684/60550356.jpg
The dark circle just off the crop on the bottom left by the Egyptians is the Mozabites - a reasonable population to study to get an idea of old North African genetics. The Bedouins are closer to the Europeans than they are to these Berbers. Here's the bigger image;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6933&d=1296806647
- The Spaniards there are closer to the Lapps than the Mozabites. :coffee:

Some more, showing the distance between Arabs and Berbers;
http://tinypic.com/e8u80z.gif
http://tinypic.com/e88vuo.gif


Yes, because specific clades and subclades aren't relevant here at all, all that really matters is the very broad, widely distrubuted, highly varied Haplogroup of R1b!
The broad outlines of the haplogroups are quite sufficient for a general overview of the status quo.



Let alone try introduce some crazy notion like autosomal data being relevant here!
The first few pics in this post are of interpretations of autosomal data.

[Lábaru]

Savant, let's be honest, you can only dream to be as pure blood as an Iberian.

[Comte Arnau]

Meanwhile, somewhere in Iberia...


http://oi44.tinypic.com/20prng9.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Let alone try introduce some crazy notion like autosomal data being relevant here!

About that i did post a very relevant picture when you were stating that Iberians and Jews clustered together in the Penelope Cruz thread.

It's a K=10 analisys, which is the last column of the original image:

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9075/behar2010.png

Here you can compare Iberians with Jews, Africans and with other Europeans autosomally:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

This is from the study Genome-wide structure of Jews (Behar et al. 2010)

However, you considered it "shit" as you did with a 23andme screenshot i also posted.

[Amapola]

Those lads have long memories and are great at keeping grudges. It's all part of their success, reinforcing their unity. :shrug: I mentioned it as one factor, not as the main substance of my post anyway. You can save your eloquent ROFLs and LMAOs.

Those lads claim the whole world! Spain is just a little lost paradise/recurrent myth they have! I don't think they ever gave better writings or better names than while in Sefarad. Anyroad, his LMAOs are funny exactly because they claim every place where they have been to, so the idea of only concentrating on Iberia is ridiculous. :D

"One drop of blood and you are one of us" I was recently told by a Sephardita. And this is how their law says.

[Anthropologique]

There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

I know that...I was just goofing on one character who was calling just about everyone a "sand nigger". Only a sarcastic comment.

I suspect that anyone darker than snow is swarthy for you.:rolleyes: The large majority of South Euros are hardly dark by normal standards (and your standards don't seem normal), particularly South-western Euros and Northern Italians.

BTW, darker skin tones among mainstream Euros have nothing to do with SSA admixture. It has to do with genetic adaptation to environment. Someone who has recent and significant SSA admixture is a totally different story - then again he wouldn't be genetically Euro anyway. Educate yourself before posting.

Er, care to talk about mongoloid admixture.:D

[Anthropologique]

There is virtually no African or Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in Finland. In comparison south Euros are "sky high" on this. All reliable research have shown that North African, Subsaharan and Middle Eastern/Arab admixture in south Europe is both old (Neolithic) and "new" (Roman - Middle ages). Siberian/North Asian admixture in Northern Europeans is on the other hand Neolithic at it's youngest. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

I know that...I was just goofing on one character who was calling just about everyone a "sand nigger". Only a sarcastic comment.

I suspect that anyone darker than snow is swarthy for you.:rolleyes: The large majority of South Euros are hardly dark by normal standards (and your standards don't seem normal) particularly South-western Euros and Northern Italians.

BTW, darker skin tones among mainstream Euros has nothing to do with SSA admixture. It has to do with genetic adaptation to environment. Someone who has recent and significant SSA admixture is a totally different story - then again he wouldn't be genetically Euro anyway. Educate yourself before posting.

Err, care to talk about mongoloid admixture.:D

[Osweo]

I think he has the balkan one, E1b1b1a.
Ah yes, the damned Shiptar! :D

Interestingly, E1 only shows in the north of Portugal on that map I edited. I can't find it in any of the other pie-charts.


The one to look for is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b1b

Ah yes. The map I used must be older, as it uses the older name E3b2. It's the same one I coloured red, though. :)

Is it conclusive that it branched off from the other E varieties IN North Africa? Wiki says it's 5,600 years old. Long enough to spread all over, including the Auvergne. Even some on the border of the Caucasus;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

About Galicia, did the Romans post some Numidian cavalry there?

[Anthropologique]

Oh boy, the half-caste, self-hating and intellectually confused Savant has returned to pollute another thread with grade A rubbish. Lord, what are we to do?:eek:

[StonyArabia]

Arabians are not related to Berbers, and don't cluster with them. The closest people to Arabians are the people of Iraq who themselves are largely an Arabian subset. The Bedouins, Saudis, and Yemenite Jews, Iraq(Bedouin and Marsh Arabs) form their own unique cluster and have largely preserved the Semitic bloodline more so than the other groups. The Berbers are certainly distinct and distant in their relationship to the Arabians. Though the Berbers might share a common ancestry with the Arabians by virtue of being Afro-Asiatic. Anyways the Moorish impact in SouthWestern Europe seem not have had a large impact on the population and this what scientific finding shows.

[Damião de Góis]

About Galicia, did the Romans post some Numidian cavalry there?

The intriguing thing about that haplogroup in Iberia is not the Galician number but Pasiegos, Cantabria which showed very high numbers (30-40%) in some study. Galicia shows around 10% in most studies, which is still higher than the rest.

In any case, if Calais and Auvergne are showing similar values to most of Iberia then i don't know how to read this.

[Osweo]

The intriguing thing about that haplogroup in Iberia is not the Galician number but Pasiegos, Cantabria which showed very high numbers (30-40%) in some study.
Aye. Mozarabe/Morisco converso element + amplifying founder effect?

Naturally, when we get into detail about such Iberian ethnographic realia, the noisy amateurs like savant are left far behind... ;)


Galicia shows around 10% in most studies, which is still higher than the rest.
Curious, isn't it? Simply chance?


In any case, if Calais and Auvergne are showing similar values to most of Iberia then i don't know how to read this.
Aye, not many Moors up on the la Manche! Savant has ancestry from those parts, if we believe his romantic yank-genealogomanic claims of Norman ancestry. :D

I'm made to think again of what I said before, musing on how late-prehistoric movements associated with the amazing spread of R1b in western Europe seem to have 'pushed' these other (older?) haplogroups into the west of the Peninsula. Perhaps they'd previously done the same in Gaul, but more thoroughly. :chin:

[Falkata]

. It's all very simple and even visible, why are south Euros mostly (--> 80 -95%) dark while North Euros are almost all fair?

Do you know that it was like this 3000 years ago too right? :confused:
I mean I could expect this kind of simplistic afirmation from Savant or other troll but I thought that you were smarter

[Damião de Góis]

Aye. Mozarabe/Morisco converso element + amplifying founder effect?

I don't get it, the moors were in Cantabria for about 10 years. Reconquista started there.


Curious, isn't it? Simply chance?


I'm made to think again of what I said before, musing on how late-prehistoric movements associated with the amazing spread of R1b in western Europe seem to have 'pushed' these other (older?) haplogroups into the west of the Peninsula. Perhaps they'd previously done the same in Gaul, but more thoroughly. :chin:

Galicia is arguably the more celticized area of the peninsula, going by archeological finds. If celts pushed other populations to the west maybe celtic presence wouldn't be as strong in the west? But it isn't so, the west is where celtic languages were spoken.

[Osweo]

I don't get it, the moors were in Cantabria for about 10 years. Reconquista started there.
Sure, but when the Reconquista was well into its maturity, there were resettlements of some Moriscos away from territories in which they might prove a nuisance or risk. Perhaps the Pasiegos owe some of their origins to such a move.


Galicia is arguably the more celticized area of the peninsula, going by archeological finds. If celts pushed other populations to the west maybe celtic presence wouldn't be as strong in the west? But it isn't so, the west is where celtic languages were spoken.

WELL... How was Galicia more celticised than the lands of the Vetones or Vacceos? Celtic speech was found almost everywhere in the peninsular, even in enclaves in Iberian regions (thanks to mercenary colonies?). Galicia remembers this best because it is relatively remote, that's all.

[Anthropologique]

Sure, but when the Reconquista was well into its maturity, there were resettlements of some Moriscos away from territories in which they might prove a nuisance or risk. Perhaps the Pasiegos owe some of their origins to such a move.



WELL... How was Galicia more celticised than the lands of the Vetones or Vacceos? Celtic speech was found almost everywhere in the peninsular, even in enclaves in Iberian regions (thanks to mercenary colonies?). Galicia remembers this best because it is relatively remote, that's all.

I'm willing to bet that the great percentage of E3b in western Iberia is Neolithic or Mesolithic. Many population geneticists seem to think in the same fashion.

[Lábaru]

Sure, but when the Reconquista was well into its maturity, there were resettlements of some Moriscos away from territories in which they might prove a nuisance or risk. Perhaps the Pasiegos owe some of their origins to such a move.

Of course not xD, that's like the story of the children of the Armada in UK.

[Anthropologique]

[QUOTE=Osweo;617618]Those lads have long memories and are great at keeping grudges. It's all part of their success, reinforcing their unity. :shrug: I mentioned it as one factor, not as the main substance of my post anyway. You can save your eloquent ROFLs and LMAOs.

There are plots all over the net, sometimes in your own posts, showing that the link between the Berbers and the Europeans is THRU the Near Easterners, and that all three have some appreciable distance between each other.

The Berbers are of course a distant branch of the Near Easterners, who moved along the southern Mediterranean shore, but they've been in North Africa for many millennia, and assuming that they have not changed in this time is stupid.

Anyroad, look:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6684/60550356.jpg
The dark circle just off the crop on the bottom left by the Egyptians is the Mozabites - a reasonable population to study to get an idea of old North African genetics. The Bedouins are closer to the Europeans than they are to these Berbers. Here's the bigger image;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6933&d=1296806647
- The Spaniards there are closer to the Lapps than the Mozabites. :coffee:

Some more, showing the distance between Arabs and Berbers;
http://tinypic.com/e8u80z.gif
http://tinypic.com/e88vuo.gif

The more Savant (the extreme self-hating half-caste) posts the more he shows how serious his brain atrophy is.:lol00002: This fool should be banned for intellectual dishonesty and moronic behavior.

[Damião de Góis]

Sure, but when the Reconquista was well into its maturity, there were resettlements of some Moriscos away from territories in which they might prove a nuisance or risk. Perhaps the Pasiegos owe some of their origins to such a move.

Maybe. Still is weird.



WELL... How was Galicia more celticised than the lands of the Vetones or Vacceos? Celtic speech was found almost everywhere in the peninsular, even in enclaves in Iberian regions (thanks to mercenary colonies?). Galicia remembers this best because it is relatively remote, that's all.

How? It's just my perception. Because these are found more often in Galicia than elsewhere:

http://fotos.panageos.com/balmonte_3162/c/a/s/castro-vidalonga_138149.jpg

http://fotos.euroresidentes.com/fotos/galicia/fotos-galicia/images/castro-en-A-guarda.JPG

http://imagenes.w3.racc.es/uploads/image/6254_Espana_Galicia,_Castro_de_Barona_003094.jpg

And you're right, it was found in more areas. The Vettones weren't celtic speaking though.

[Ibericus]

Ah yes, the damned Shiptar! :D

Interestingly, E1 only shows in the north of Portugal on that map I edited. I can't find it in any of the other pie-charts.


Ah yes. The map I used must be older, as it uses the older name E3b2. It's the same one I coloured red, though. :)

Is it conclusive that it branched off from the other E varieties IN North Africa? Wiki says it's 5,600 years old. Long enough to spread all over, including the Auvergne. Even some on the border of the Caucasus;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

About Galicia, did the Romans post some Numidian cavalry there?
The presence of E-M81 in Galicia is about 6% (I have compiled many studies and I get 23/399= 5.76%) which is not that far from that found in parts of France like Auvergne (5.6%). Overall the presence in Iberia (4-5%) is similar to that found in France (4.1% Scozzari et al. 2001)

[Comte Arnau]

Celtic speech was found almost everywhere in the peninsular, even in enclaves in Iberian regions (thanks to mercenary colonies?).

Central European (Proto)Celts entered Iberia through Catalonia at the beginning of the 1st millenium bC and stayed here for a while before being definitely pushed westwards, some three or four centuries later, by the Iberians.

[Osweo]

Of course not xD, that's like the story of the children of the Armada in UK.

Don't make me get out my Caro Baroja to reinforce my points! :p

By the way, the 'Celticness' of the far northwest is overstated in my opinion. How can the archaeology demonstrate that there wasn't a massive pre-Celtic substratum? In support of that, I cite toponymy;
IRIA Flavia, between Astorga and Braga. Iria is clearly Iberian, and identical with the last element in Iliberris = Elvira = Granada. The Vascongadas have several town names with the same element. Iruna, is it?

[Lábaru]

Don't make me get out my Caro Baroja to reinforce my points! :p

By the way, the 'Celticness' of the far northwest is overstated in my opinion. How can the archaeology demonstrate that there wasn't a massive pre-Celtic substratum? In support of that, I cite toponymy;
IRIA Flavia, between Astorga and Braga. Iria is clearly Iberian, and identical with the last element in Iliberris = Elvira = Granada. The Vascongadas have several town names with the same element. Iruna, is it?

Yes, exactly.

[Damião de Góis]

How? It's just my perception. Because these are found more often in Galicia than elsewhere


Just to conclude, i don't think other areas of Iberia compare to this:

Castros in Coruña province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

Castros in Lugo province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Lugo

Castros in Ourense province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Ourense

Castros in Pontevedra province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Pontevedra

A "castro" of course, is an old celtic settlement:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Castro-de-coana01.jpg

[Ibericus]

The last Eurogenes MDS plot, as always, Iberians clustering between North-Italians and Frenchies :

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/145/78364261.png

[Osweo]

How? It's just my perception. Because these are found more often in Galicia than elsewhere:

http://fotos.panageos.com/balmonte_3162/c/a/s/castro-vidalonga_138149.jpg

http://fotos.euroresidentes.com/fotos/galicia/fotos-galicia/images/castro-en-A-guarda.JPG

http://imagenes.w3.racc.es/uploads/image/6254_Espana_Galicia,_Castro_de_Barona_003094.jpg
They are mute stones. They are incapable of telling us about the nature of Celticisation of the region. They could have more to do with the local economy or ecology than ethnolinguistic matters.

English speakers in England live mostly in brick structures. In America they often live in flimsy wooden houses. After a few centuries, the archaeologist will be unable to draw conclusions about language from the house remains!

The castros cannot enlighten us on the relative genetic impact of pre-Celts and Celts in this region.


And you're right, it was found in more areas. The Vettones weren't celtic speaking though.
Grr! Carpetones, then! :p
(I was just reading the other day about the stone bulls of Vettonia ;) )

Regardless, Lusitanian speakers are ALSO a result of IE penetration of Iberia.

[Lábaru]

Just to conclude, i don't think other areas of Iberia compare to this:

Castros in Coruña province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

Castros in Lugo province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Lugo

Castros in Ourense province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Ourense

Castros in Pontevedra province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Pontevedra

A "castro" of course, is an old celtic settlement:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Castro-de-coana01.jpg

So few... we have more!!!


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_en_Cantabria

[Damião de Góis]

They are mute stones. They are incapable of telling us about the nature of Celticisation of the region. They could have more to do with the local economy or ecology than ethnolinguistic matters.

English speakers in England live mostly in brick structures. In America they often live in flimsy wooden houses. After a few centuries, the archaeologist will be unable to draw conclusions about language from the house remains!

The castros cannot enlighten us on the relative genetic impact of pre-Celts and Celts in this region.

Those stones belonged to the Callaeci and they were celtic speaking:

http://www.arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi150dpi.jpg

The high number of these settlements makes me think that modern day Galicia and some areas of northern Portugal were more celtified than other areas of Iberia. Because as i've said, no other region shows as much of those "stones".


Grr! Carpetones, then! :p
(I was just reading the other day about the stone bulls of Vettonia ;) )

Regardless, Lusitanian speakers are ALSO a result of IE penetration of Iberia.

Lusitanians were pre-celtic like the Vettones :P

[Ibericus]

Those stones belonged to the Callaeci and they were celtic speaking:

http://www.arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi150dpi.jpg

The high number of these settlements makes me think that modern day Galicia and some areas of northern Portugal were more celtified than other areas of Iberia. Because as i've said, no other region shows as much of those "stones".

Lusitanians were pre-celtic like the Vettones :P
I believe the more Celtified areas are in central Iberia, in Castille, where there is the highest concentration of Oppidas, and of celtic inscriptions.

[Damião de Góis]

So few... we have more!!!


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_en_Cantabria

No you don't :p
Click on the four links i posted and count.

[Ibericus]

About that i did post a very relevant picture when you were stating that Iberians and Jews clustered together in the Penelope Cruz thread.

It's a K=10 analisys, which is the last column of the original image:

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9075/behar2010.png

Here you can compare Iberians with Jews, Africans and with other Europeans autosomally:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

This is from the study Genome-wide structure of Jews (Behar et al. 2010)

However, you considered it "shit" as you did with a 23andme screenshot i also posted.

There is even a more recent one of admixture analysis, and with K=20, the Rasmussen et al. 2011, the near-east and north-african is not even visible in Spaniards, and we appear most similar to french:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4881/rasmussen2011small.png

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/10/admixture-up-to-k20-rasmussen-et-al.html

[Osweo]

Those stones belonged to the Callaeci and they were celtic speaking:
They did and they were. But other Celts elsewhere didn't live like that. The remains are not 'Celtic'. They are Callaecian.

The Indo-European languages did not evolve in Iberia. Even Celtic was first spoken elsewhere.

IE Celtic and Lustanian obviously came to Iberia from outside. Full Celticisation would mean a complete transformation of Iberian life on the pattern of that in Gaul and the Upper Danubian lands. This did not happen. You cannot speak of the peculiar castro-building society of northwestern Hispania as signifying greater Celticisation.

Lusitanians were pre-celtic like the Vettones :P
Both were IE speaking. I've seen the Vettones described as linguistic kin of the Lusitani, though. Is that not so?

[Tony]

LOL! Yeah, 800 years of Muslim rule, with Iberia being a caliphate had ZERO genetic influence, and coincidentally we have all these studies showing that Iberians have signatures which match the EXACT GROUPS which occupied Iberia. All just a big coincidence... It's "from the Neolithic" :pound: :clap:

Not proper zero but very tiny amount.

I think we tend to commit the error to see the past with modern eyes.

Medieval Europe wasn't liberal nor democratic, it was instead conservative and collective, back then people were mostly peasants and lived in rural areas, very few left their home village as we do today.
Back then people used to stik to their own kind, muslims and christian didn't use to intermarry, if one (think of a girl!) happened to prefer someone of a different religion he would have been ostracized and likely end his life in poverty.
Religion played an important rule in the daily life, it's not like today when we are actually all secular, at that time people believed, it was unconceivable to marry someone of a different religion, it would have upset several aspects of one's life, starting with the children's education to finish with more practical aspects (to who give money?priests or mullah?).

Don't think of Iberia in the Middle Eve as West today, but ratheras SouthAfrica in term of racial relations.
Muslims maghrebis and Christian Iberians simply lived side by side but separate for hundreds of years, saved very few expections.

[Lábaru]

Señores , we can find Celtic hill forts (castros) around the whole center and north of the peninsula, and many of them are hidden, in Cantabria have been found several between 1980 and 2000.

But this is not fun :( , we come here for speak of Moors.

[Osweo]

Damn you, Alex. You made me read some stuff... :tsk:


The Vettones lived in the northwestern part of the meseta—the high central upland plain of the Iberian peninsula—the region where the modern Spanish provinces of Ávila and Salamanca are today, as well as parts of Zamora, Toledo, Cáceres and also the eastern border areas of modern Portuguese territory. Their own capital city, which the ancient sources mysteriously failed to mention at all, has not yet been found though other towns mentioned by Ptolemy [5] were located, such as Capara (Vendas de Cápara), Obila (Ávila), Mirobriga (Ciudad Rodrigo), Turgalium (Trujillo, Cáceres), Alea (Alía – Caceres) and probably Bletisa/Bletisama (Ledesma, Salamanca). Other probable Vettonian towns were Tamusia (Villasviejas de Tamuja, near Botija – Caceres; Celtiberian-type mint: Tamusiensi), Ocelon/Ocelum (Castelo Branco), Cottaeobriga (Almeida) and Lancia (Serra d’Opa).
Mirobriga, Bletisama, Cottaeobriga are VERY Celtic (the second obviously means 'very flowery place :p)

Ah, this must be what I was thinking of;

Traditional allies of the Lusitani, the Vettones helped the latter in their struggle against the advancing Carthaginians

Hmmm, the online materials seem confused as to their language. Most seem to say Celtic...

But;

Ilurbeda es una divinidad de origen vetón bien conocida, extendida por la Lusitania romana, con registros epigráficos hallados en Cáceres (San Martín de Trevejo (Olivares, 2007)), Ávila (dos aras encontradas en la iglesia parroquial de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Narros del Puerto), Salamanca (Segoyuela de los Cornejos (AE, 1985), Martiago (Hernández-Guerra, 2001) y La Alberca (HEp, 2000)), Coimbra (dos testimonios en Covas dos Ladrões, Góis) (Garcia, 1991) y Sintra (Faião, Terrugen) (Garcia, 1991).
That theonym looks quite native Iberian to me. See Ilurcis, Ilurco, Ilergetes...

Looks like a partially Celticised people to me. The harder I look, the more I see this in 'Celtic' Iberia... ;)

[Damião de Góis]

They did and they were. But other Celts elsewhere didn't live like that. The remains are not 'Celtic'. They are Callaecian.

The Indo-European languages did not evolve in Iberia. Even Celtic was first spoken elsewhere.

IE Celtic and Lustanian obviously came to Iberia from outside. Full Celticisation would mean a complete transformation of Iberian life on the pattern of that in Gaul and the Upper Danubian lands. This did not happen. You cannot speak of the peculiar castro-building society of northwestern Hispania as signifying greater Celticisation.

Then how did others live and what can we find about their presence to make a comparison? Because at least with the Callaeci we have plenty to look at.


Both were IE speaking. I've seen the Vettones described as linguistic kin of the Lusitani, though. Is that not so?

Yes they were related. I was thinking of IE as celtic in this context. Both Vettones and Lusitani appear as pre-celtic in most maps.

[Ibericus]

Not proper zero but very tiny amount.

I think we tend to commit the error to see the past with modern eyes.

Medieval Europe wasn't liberal nor democratic, it was instead conservative and collective, back then people were mostly peasants and lived in rural areas, very few left their home village as we do today.
Back then people used to stik to their own kind, muslims and christian didn't use to intermarry, if one (think of a girl!) happened to prefer someone of a different religion he would have been ostracized and likely end his life in poverty.
Religion played an important rule in the daily life, it's not like today when we are actually all secular, at that time people believed, it was unconceivable to marry someone of a different religion, it would have upset several aspects of one's life, starting with the children's education to finish with more practical aspects (to who give money?priests or mullah?).

Don't think of Iberia in the Middle Eve as West today, but ratheras SouthAfrica in term of racial relations.
Muslims maghrebis and Christian Iberians simply lived side by side but separate for hundreds of years, saved very few expections.
Yes, that's also true, but anyways most muslims were just ethnic iberians who had converted to Islam, and they changed their christian names for a moorish one.

[Lábaru]

Look at this Celtic castro in Soria.

http://www.celtiberiasoria.es/extras/fotos/contenidos/886/Fichero_imagen_detalle.jpg

reconstructed in a model, to have a view.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Maqueta_de_Castillejo_de_Castilfr%C3%ADo.jpg

The name is Castillejo de Castilfrío.

[Comte Arnau]

Those stones belonged to the Callaeci and they were celtic speaking:

http://www.arkeotavira.com/Mapas/Iberia/Populi150dpi.jpg


Can't help considering how similar the territorial ethnic populating tendencies remain after two millenia....

[Lábaru]

No you don't :p
Click on the four links i posted and count.

but we are smaller, look:

http://educadultos.wikispaces.com/file/view/espanaPolitico.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

but we are smaller, look:

http://educadultos.wikispaces.com/file/view/espanaPolitico.jpg

Ok make the comparison only with Corunha ;)

http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

[Lábaru]

Ok make the comparison only with Corunha ;)

http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

Sorry, still smaller! :P

anyway, fucking pasiegos Moors, they could have built some castros :(

[Osweo]

Then how did others live and what can we find about their presence to make a comparison? Because at least with the Callaeci we have plenty to look at.
Long ago in southern Germany, the Celts lived like this;
http://www.netconnect-project.eu/images/DrawingHeuneburg.jpg
Then there was some sort of social revolution, and proto-urbanisation was largely abandoned and forgotten. See bottome right;
http://images.zeno.org/Brockhaus-1911/I/big/bkklurz1.jpg
http://www.weltexpress.info/cms/typo3temp/pics/6476f0dc73.jpg
Check Asterix for details... ;)

In Gaul, the oppida did eventually reappear;
http://www.webstore.fr/eze/corniche/images/croquis_oppidum.jpg
http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/college/do-mistrau.suze-la-rousse/img/archeo_6e/oppidum_gaulois.jpg

In Britain, they lived mostly in these;
http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/photos/data/media/6/bodrifty-round-house.jpg

****

Loads of different stuff in different times and places.

[Osweo]

Can't help considering how similar the territorial ethnic populating tendencies remain after two millenia....

The prehistoric map is possibly influenced by modern political boundaries and ideas, however.

As I've pointed out, there are deep commonalities across Iberia that 'Celticness' obscures in the popular imagination. I submit that Celticisation was nowhere near as thorough as many think. I've already pointed out the substratum in toponymy and theonymy (two linguistic spheres where conservatism is often marked).

[Comte Arnau]

The prehistoric map is possibly influenced by modern political boundaries and ideas, however.

To a point, maybe. But line here or there, it is a plausible map. Geography probably plays an important role in Iberia, with its Western/Atlantic and Eastern/Mediterranean basins.

[Damião de Góis]

Osweo, i'm not disputing that. Of course "celts" were different people in different parts of Europe. My question was about the ones from Iberia specifically and how we could compare the insane amount of castros in Galicia to anything that could indicate the presence of celts elsewhere in Iberia. I mean, statues, pottery, etc... since you are saying that castros were specifically callaecian .

[Falkata]

Just to conclude, i don't think other areas of Iberia compare to this:

Castros in Coruña province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

Castros in Lugo province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Lugo

Castros in Ourense province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Ourense

Castros in Pontevedra province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Pontevedra

A "castro" of course, is an old celtic settlement:



"Castro" is also my surname :D

What about the Triskel? Does it have any relation with the Celtic "culture"? The symbol has a strong presence in Galicia and in other northern regions like Asturias

Some galician ones

http://www.coloredhome.com/celtas/celtas40.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2b4BDbMqnGU/SSqO6W4SOvI/AAAAAAAAFy4/I1c7Nn6-FeA/s640/00.Pontecaldelas.Touron+(3).jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QXgj_8-WFOw/Tl5HDX75MKI/AAAAAAAAEoU/9lE7MyD0IkE/s1600/P1050150.JPG
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-fHpX2r7VE20/SYBiDRLkoHI/AAAAAAAADiI/cDW0tE7cpHM/P1000630_b.jpg

[Ibericus]

Osweo, i'm not disputing that. Of course "celts" were different people in different parts of Europe. My question was about the ones from Iberia specifically and how we could compare the insane amount of castros in Galicia to anything that could indicate the presence of celts elsewhere in Iberia. I mean, statues, pottery, etc... since you are saying that castros were specifically callaecian .
I don't know if Castros are celtic, but Castille has a high density of Oppidas, like the famous ones of Ulaca or Las Cogotoas

[Anthropologique]

Just to conclude, i don't think other areas of Iberia compare to this:

Castros in Coruña province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_da_Coru%C3%B1a

Castros in Lugo province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Lugo

Castros in Ourense province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Ourense

Castros in Pontevedra province:
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_da_provincia_de_Pontevedra

A "castro" of course, is an old celtic settlement:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Castro-de-coana01.jpg

Except Northern Portugal.

[Damião de Góis]

Except Northern Portugal.

The settlements in Galicia and in northern Portugal were of the same people. It also stretches to western Asturias.

[Anthropologique]

eh savant, Moors is better than Indian!

Seems the old half-caste Savant forgot to take his medication today. No doubt the man believes his own lies. Seriously ill.

[Geopagan]

I am of the opinion that R1b-U152 is a good indicator of Celtic expansion.

[Damião de Góis]

I am of the opinion that R1b-U152 is a good indicator of Celtic expansion.

Doesn't match.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Celts_in_Europe2.png/360px-Celts_in_Europe2.png

[Geopagan]

^ Actually there is a great deal of commonality. Plus that map at the bottom doesn't take things like founder effects and other phenomena into consideration.

[Damião de Góis]

^ Actually there is a great deal of commonality. Plus that map at the bottom doesn't take things like founder effects and other phenomena into consideration.

No haplogroup map matches, so it isn't a good idea to link celtic expansion with haplogroups. As for the map at the bottom it looks like any other celtic expansion map i could find:

http://www.medpovrly.cz/en/ImgCont/historie01_en.jpg

http://www.ivargault.com/bilder/europa.jpg

etc

[Geopagan]

Actually, Alex you may indeed be right...about nominal "Celts" per se.

It'd perhaps be a bit safer to associate that haplogroup with those that arose from Urnfield cultures.

[Damião de Góis]

Actually, Alex you may indeed be right...about nominal "Celts" per se.

It'd perhaps be a bit safer to associate that haplogroup with those that arose from Urnfield cultures.

In my opinion it's difficult to link haplogroups with any specific old population. According to 23andme my haplogroup (R-S116) is 17,000 years old...

[Sikeliot]

Doesn't match.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Celts_in_Europe2.png/360px-Celts_in_Europe2.png

Celts in Turkey?! I guess I learn something new every day :)

[Nairi]

Celts in Turkey?! I guess I learn something new every day :)

Not "Turkey" but Armenia renamed into "Turkey"...

by Arthur de Gobineau.
Translated with online translator from Russian.

«The name of these warlike tribes originated from the word «gall», meaning «strong». It is linked with the ancient roots of language, which remained in Sanskrit, «wala» or «walya» — and has the same value. Sarmatian tribes, then the Goths, kept faithful to this form and named galls »walah». Slavs have reworked the word «wlach». Greeks pronounced it as «Celts» and Romans borrowed fheir pronunciation «Celtae «. Finally, it adopted the current form, «Galli». Besides that names galls had another name «Gomer» which in the biblical genealogy is the name of one of the sons of Japheth.
As an aside it is appropriate to mention the following interesting facts.
Armenians, writing that name it in their Chronicles, turned it into a «Gamer». I can't tell where it came from them, but perhaps they (Armenians) were relatives of the Celts. There is indirect confirmation of this in the Bible, where Armenians are called tribe to breakaway from these «gomer» or «gamir». In Genesis (x 3) they are called «Togarmah-sons of Homer».

[Sikeliot]

Not "Turkey" but Armenia renamed into "Turkey"...


I was just shocked that the Celts made it that far east, is all :)

[cilicia]

Not "Turkey" but Armenia renamed into "Turkey"...

by Arthur de Gobineau.
Translated with online translator from Russian.

«The name of these warlike tribes originated from the word «gall», meaning «strong». It is linked with the ancient roots of language, which remained in Sanskrit, «wala» or «walya» — and has the same value. Sarmatian tribes, then the Goths, kept faithful to this form and named galls »walah». Slavs have reworked the word «wlach». Greeks pronounced it as «Celts» and Romans borrowed fheir pronunciation «Celtae «. Finally, it adopted the current form, «Galli». Besides that names galls had another name «Gomer» which in the biblical genealogy is the name of one of the sons of Japheth.
As an aside it is appropriate to mention the following interesting facts.
Armenians, writing that name it in their Chronicles, turned it into a «Gamer». I can't tell where it came from them, but perhaps they (Armenians) were relatives of the Celts. There is indirect confirmation of this in the Bible, where Armenians are called tribe to breakaway from these «gomer» or «gamir». In Genesis (x 3) they are called «Togarmah-sons of Homer».


Yes, and earlier today I had been thinking about the Cimmerians , who settled in Gyumri, Armenia and Cappadocia. The Welsh claim descent from Cimmerians and have called Wales "Cymru" in honor of this. Gyumri and Cymru both mean "Land of Cimmerians". There is also a higher than average G2a rate in Wales.....

[Zephyr]

I was just shocked that the Celts made it that far east, is all :)

Hint...

Gallia
Galatians

[AFC_Lad]

Course it effected lots of people and nationalities, close to the borders of the islamic peoples, this being said, some of those people on the frontiers, most anyway, were european, and to some extent still are..

[Lurker]

Fuck Spain and Portugal, they have already been discussed ad nauseam.

What about the Muslim conquests in Eastern Europe and the Balkans? Is it that impossible for some genes from the invaders to remain there? I mean, were Tatars in Tatarstan influenced genetically by invaders from the East or are they the exactly the same as they were 5,000 years ago? If the latter, then Tatars would be some of the best examples of what the original Indo-Europeans looked like. I always thought IE would look paler or blonder lol.

But, considering how people look like in Kalmykya, I wouldn't rule out population replacement as well. The Crimean peninsula also seems to have been subject to lots of population replacement. Nowadays it's mainly Ukrainian/Russian, but it might not always have been so. Crimeam Muslims that were expelled looked different from the current Crimean people, IMO.

Also, how was Albania affected? It seems to be a different case from other areas, because lots of Albanians converted and became attached to the Ottoman empire buraucracy. Were interrmarriages between Albanians and Ottomans likely?

[safinator]

Also, how was Albania affected? It seems to be a different case from other areas, because lots of Albanians converted and became attached to the Ottoman empire buraucracy. Were interrmarriages between Albanians and Ottomans likely?

Balkans Genetic (http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf)

This shows that Albanians don't differ genetically from other neighbours.

[Tony]

Not "Turkey" but Armenia renamed into "Turkey"...

Regardless the correctness of de Gobinau's speculations we should always avoid to mix modern and past political entities.

Neither Armenia nor Turkey but Asia Minor, so everyone is content.

[Nairi]

Neither Armenia nor Turkey but Asia Minor, so everyone is content.

I see your point and I understand it is difficult for others to start using Armenia/Armenian Highland for the region they know as Asia Minor/Turkey/Anatolia" but don't you think it is not only Armenian duty but everyone else to use correct term for the region which was changed by the Turks only recently?
I don't think any nation would agree their historical homeland being called by other names which takes away their heritage. Our ancestors lived there from the dawn of civilization, but now we witness how their creation is attributed to anyone but not them.
I watch a program where a European jounrlaist is walking around statues of Armenian Pagan Gods in Western Armenia ( Asia Minor as you say) and makes her assumption who they belong to and no surprise Armenians are not even among her "assumptions"...And that is exactly what Turks aimed for.

I think it is high time people start using term Armenian Highland, only Turks will be those not "content" ones, I doubt it could hurt Europeans :)


The Armenian Highland (Armenian: Հայկական լեռնաշխարհ Haykakan leṙnašxarh; Russian: Армянское нагорье Armyanskoye nagor'e; also known as the Armenian Upland, Armenian plateau, simply Armenia[1]; erroneously referred to as Eastern Anatolia or Eastern Asia Minor[2])

File:Armenian Highlands.jpg

When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. In its attempts to shroud the Armenian heritage of Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter Armenian placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[3]

[Ushtari]

Also, how was Albania affected? It seems to be a different case from other areas, because lots of Albanians converted and became attached to the Ottoman empire buraucracy. Were interrmarriages between Albanians and Ottomans likely?
Yes, once islam entered teh country, teh Albanians went from looking like this:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/subraces_files/p29f1.jpg


To:
http://www.macfoto.com/sites/default/files/images/Herder-with-camels_.jpg


:coffee:

[Artaxat]

Regardless the correctness of de Gobinau's speculations we should always avoid to mix modern and past political entities.

Neither Armenia nor Turkey but Asia Minor, so everyone is content.

The Armenian Highlands is not a political definition, but a natural denomination

Just as you can't subsititute Armenia or Georgia with Caucasus.

Please, Asia Minor is Asia minor

Armenian Highlands is Armenian Highlands, even if it would politically be called turkey, monogolistan, Italy or switzerland.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

- 1923
Historical Atlas
William R Shepherd

Let's not mix things up.

[European blood]

Major study of Iberian Y-chromosomes (Adams et al.)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/12/major-study-of-iberian-y-chromosomes.html


North African male legacy in southern Europe quantified

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/01/north-african-male-legacy-in-southern.html


Y chromosomes of Iberian Gypsies

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/01/y-chromosomes-of-iberian-gypsies.html


Y chromosomes of NE Portuguese Jews

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/y-chromosomes-of-ne-portuguese-jews.html


Jews intermediate between Middle Eastern and European populations (Kopelman et al. 2009)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/12/jews-intermediate-between-middle.html


Two major groups of living Jews (Atzmon et al. 2010)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/06/two-major-groups-of-living-jews-atzmon.html


Genome-wide structure of Jews (Behar et al. 2010)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/06/genome-wide-structure-of-jews-behar-et.html


http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln83veTtZz1qcerqgo1_500.jpg

Tariq ibn Ziyad or Tariq bin Zayed (also spelt Tarique, Tarik or Tarek) (Arabic: طارق بن زياد‎, 15 November 689 A.D. – 11 April 720 A.D.) was a Muslim Berber general who led the conquest of Visigothic Hispania (modern-daySpain) in 711 A.D. under the orders of the Umayyad Caliph Al-Walid I. The name “Gibraltar” is the Spanishderivation of the Arabic name Jabal Tāriq (جبل طارق), meaning “mountain of Tariq”, named after him.

Tariq ibn Ziyad is considered to be one of the most important military commanders in Iberian history. He was born in Algeria in North Africa and was initially the deputy of Musa ibn Nusair, and was sent by his superior from the north coast of Morocco to launch the first thrust of a conquest of the Visigothic Kingdom (comprising modern Spainand Portugal).

http://antzinpantz.com/kns/images/FEB11/batalla.jpg


Faces of North Africans to The Age of The Moors

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/the-faces-of-north-...

According to historian Richard A. Fletcher,the number of Arabs who settled in Iberia was very small.
or No existed and Probably an Islamic Legend made by the muslim Historians
the bulk of the invaders and settlers were Moors, i.e. Berbers from Morocco.
Aline Angoustures says that the Berbers were about 900,000 in Iberia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780520084964

The 140kya divergence time between Eurasians and West Africans

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/140000-year-divergence-time-between.html

Taforalt Project mtDNA sequences Analysis (28.500BC)-Morocco
http://web.arch.ox.ac.uk/taforalt/

http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/juegos/025.jpg
The above picture of particularly dark-skinned Muslims is shown on various "Afrocentric" web pages attempting to prove that Black Africans dominated Spanish society during the Muslim occupation. But further examination of more pictures from the same Book of Games reveals the same pattern as in the Cantigas: the component of the Muslim population that approached "black African" in appearance seems to have been a small minority. If the pictures are any indication, then the bedrock of Islamic society in Spain consisted of people who resembled European or other caucasians.
http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html

Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers , compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population.

Rando et al. (1998) Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Northwest African Populations Reveals Genetic Exchanges with European, Near-Eastern, and Sub-Saharan populations. Ann Hum Genet; 62:531-550

Haratins (a Mixed race ,between caucasian and sub-saharans)
The slaves of The Moors and Largely Oberved in ALgeria and Mauretania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin

zkQ8WUq8T4Y

[Artaxat]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

Also the map shows Armenia's position, how it is directly placed at the Forefront of Europes's Eastern and South Eastern boundaries.

When we got weakened and lost our territories, Europe got invaded by the southerners, eastern, mongols, arabs muslims....

In other words, a strong Armenia means a well sealed Europe, unless you are satsified with 80 million muslim turks.

unfortunately, Europe's strategic alliances are still influenced by zionist seving puppet political elites.

[Armenian Bishop]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

Also the map shows Armenia's position, how it is directly placed at the Forefront of Europes's Eastern and South Eastern boundaries.

When we got weakened and lost our territories, Europe got invaded by the southerners, eastern, mongols, arabs muslims....

In other words, a strong Armenia means a well sealed Europe, unless you are satsified with 80 million muslim turks.

unfortunately, Europe's strategic alliances are still influenced by zionist seving puppet political elites.

Very True! I wanted to say that myself. Thank You!

[Geopagan]

From Dienekes:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html


Of interest is the fact that while R-U152 has a clear French-Italian center of weight, the locations exhibiting highest STR variance are Germany and Slovakia, i.e., Central Europe. My guess is that R-U152 originated in Central Europe spreading to the west and south, perhaps with Italo-Celtic speakers or some subset thereof. In its home territory of Central Europe, its frequency decreased by the introduction of the Germanic and Slavic speaking elements which dominate the region.


Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the Vlachs. However, its presence at only 1.8% of Romanians makes a large Italian contribution to the Romanian population unlikely. Balkan R-U152 chromosomes should be better resolved to determine when they arrived from the northwest.


The paucity of R-U152 in Turks (0.6%) make tales of wandering Galatians less likely to be true. There is no doubt that Galatians settled in Anatolia, but they were probably so few in numbers that they did not permanently alter the population.

[Odoacer]

Not "Turkey" but Armenia renamed into "Turkey"...


I see your point and I understand it is difficult for others to start using Armenia/Armenian Highland for the region they know as Asia Minor/Turkey/Anatolia" but don't you think it is not only Armenian duty but everyone else to use correct term for the region which was changed by the Turks only recently?

...

I think it is high time people start using term Armenian Highland, only Turks will be those not "content" ones, I doubt it could hurt Europeans :)

...

When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. In its attempts to shroud the Armenian heritage of Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter Armenian placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[3]


The Armenian Highlands is not a political definition, but a natural denomination

Just as you can't subsititute Armenia or Georgia with Caucasus.

Please, Asia Minor is Asia minor

Armenian Highlands is Armenian Highlands, even if it would politically be called turkey, monogolistan, Italy or switzerland.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

- 1923
Historical Atlas
William R Shepherd

Let's not mix things up.

Galatia was not in the Armenian Highlands. Galatia was thoroughly in Anatolia. Note these maps:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/15th_century_map_of_Turkey_region.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Galatia_Map.png

http://www.ancientsites.com/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/04/82/00048234_000.jpg

http://www.rcsouthwark.co.uk/media/paul_galatia.gif

http://dnghu.org/celtic-languages-map.gif

So Nairi should not be making claims that the Celts were in "Armenia renamed into 'Turkey'." The Celtic Galatae were not in Armenia.

[Gaztelu]

Yes, and earlier today I had been thinking about the Cimmerians , who settled in Gyumri, Armenia and Cappadocia. The Welsh claim descent from Cimmerians and have called Wales "Cymru" in honor of this. Gyumri and Cymru both mean "Land of Cimmerians". There is also a higher than average G2a rate in Wales.....

FFS

Treffie is going to have quite a laugh when he reads this.

[Osweo]

Ekh... Armenians... :tsk:

Welsh 'Cymru' < KOMBROGES ('Fellow-countrymen'). There is NO link with Cimmerians, and such attempts to make one belong to the very STUPIDEST realms of pseudohistory.

[Artaxat]

So Nairi should not be making claims that the Celts were in "Armenia renamed into 'Turkey'." The Celtic Galatae were not in Armenia.

My friend, nobody here tries to make fictitious claims.

I remind you Gallatia State (not Kingdom) existed
280–64 BC

Kingdom of Armenian (not "state") existed
331 BC–428 AD

The Kingdom of Armenia was The most powerful force that can contend Rome on the East.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

When I utter the words Pontos, Kappadokia, Cilicia these are words which I can utter with the original Native sounds. I myself have half of my maternal roots in Cilicia, paternally from Kappadokia.

The peak of the kingdom's power and its integration in Hellenistic culture occured under King Tigranes referred to as "Armenian Empire"

So, to my ancestors, Galatia was a mere half a day Horse ride away.

During those Luminous, Glorious days when everything was still in order, a Farmer was a Farmer, Man was a Man, Warrior was a Warrior, we were Blood Brothers, not just neighbours.
Today you cannot the same right? You and Ahmet Blood Brothers?

During the reign of King Artaxias I even Alexander The Great did not Conquer Armenia, but "Hellenistic culture had strongly impacted Armenian society".

This is an Artist's impression of King Artaxias I. The Artist is a personal friend of mine, who has Robust and Arcane Nordic features, to the extent that even today's Nordics do not have. You look at him and think you are in front of a Viking.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Artashes_A.jpg

He can draw features such as above of King Artaxias, not because he watched many Hollywood movies. But because these visual memories are encoded and transmitted through DNA. And even if DNA sometimes is not at your advantage, you can always transcend matter, that's why he is strongly inclined towards High levels of Buddhist-Dzogchen practices.

Amigos, when a task has to be fulfilled, we have to think about more than a single lifetime to accomplish it, because Great Tasks, take Long Time.

Unfortunately, sometimes you have even to use internet to Accomplish! Such are the dark days we live in. :lightbul:

[Odoacer]

My friend, nobody here tries to make fictitious claims.

Nairi claimed that the territory in which the Celts in "Turkey" were located was actually in Armenia. That is a fictitious claim. I don't really care about everything else you say about Armenia, nor do I concern myself with the "Nordicness" of any of its inhabitants, past or present. It's irrelevant to this thread & to the specific issue I was addressing. The fact of the matter is that the Celtic Galatae weren't in Armenia. Even if we assume some common heritage between the Celtic peoples & Armenians, it wouldn't be any more recent than the original Indo-European migrations, IMO.

[Artaxat]

Nairi claimed that the territory in which the Celts in "Turkey" were located was actually in Armenia. That is a fictitious claim. I don't really care about everything else you say about Armenia, nor do I concern myself with the "Nordicness" of any of its inhabitants, past or present. It's irrelevant to this thread & to the specific issue I was addressing. The fact of the matter is that the Celtic Galatae weren't in Armenia. Even if we assume some common heritage between the Celtic peoples & Armenians, it wouldn't be any more recent than the original Indo-European migrations, IMO.

These are either lies, denials or ignorance. (I am not trying to insult anyone)

These ties existed at least during the last 2500 years, and I dare say continuously, even until today, where in our culture it is ordained to marry a European but harshly condemned to mix with muslims, or other Asians for that matter.

Why then, the Anglo-Saxon chronicles precisely even penned down the word ARMENIA, as being the ancestors of the Britons.

"The island Britain is 800 miles long, and 200 miles broad.
And there are in the island five nations; English, Welsh (or
British), Scottish, Pictish, and Latin. The first
inhabitants were the Britons, who came from Armenia, and
first peopled Britain southward. Then happened it, that the
Picts came south from Scythia..."

And one ignorant or intentional falsifier just like what you trying to do now, added the following note
"De tractu Armoricano." -- Bede, "Ecclesiastical History" i.
I. The word Armenia occurring a few lines above in Bede, it
was perhaps inadvertently written by the Saxon compiler of
the "Chronicle" instead of Armorica."

You imagine, a book which is supposed to Chronicle more than a thousand years the episodes of a Nation's birth, development and history. Ended up confusing the Geographical name of the people who we'd want to chronicle about?

Out of ALL the words that was penned, ONLY ARMENIA was confused?
If these scripts were of such low quality information to the extents that THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT INFORMATION TO NARRATE OF....THE URsprung-birthplace of the Britsih got all confused and messed up? then if you believe this, you should throw the entire historic narration of the British Isles into the dust pin cause it would be filled with errors from even it's first phrase.

The author's source was completely informed were Armenia is and did not confuse it for Armorica. As well as he knew where Scythia is.....how come they they did not add a note that Scythia is supposed to be Sardinia?

This is a ditortion of a great magnitutde that the people with Anglo-Saxon ancestry should be awared of. Because it is on purpose you are kept in the darkness.

I wish you all the best.

this is the digital version of chronocile page. Enjoy it.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zbIY257PSjU/TeW2EQ9GQrI/AAAAAAAAA4Y/bNQgyoS50Vc/s1600/Peterborough.Chronicle+%2528E%2529.firstpage.jpg

[Raikaswinþs]

bla...bla...blaa...

He can draw features such as above of King Artaxias, not because he watched many Hollywood movies. But because these visual memories are encoded and transmitted through DNA. And even if DNA sometimes is not at your advantage, you can always transcend matter, that's why he is strongly inclined towards High levels of Buddhist-Dzogchen practices.

Amigos, when a task has to be fulfilled, we have to think about more than a single lifetime to accomplish it, because Great Tasks, take Long Time.

Unfortunately, sometimes you have even to use internet to Accomplish! Such are the dark days we live in. :lightbul:

Loved that bit
.

Made me think of http://gamingtips.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/assassins-creed-2124152.jpg?9d7bd4

[Artaxat]

One can upgrade his free time activities from playing Assassin's creed, to studying "Liberation Through Hearing During The Intermediate State" Transeference of Consciousness or Bardo Thodol (another ancient Aryan source)

On both you can spend a lifetime, but in the former case it will be your last lifetime, with the latter, will give you eternity. That is why, Armenia cannot be destroyed, and proved to be so.

[Odoacer]

These are either lies, denials or ignorance. (I am not trying to insult anyone)

Oh go start a thread about it, why don't you. You Armenians have been polluting every other thread you possibly can with your utter nonsense. It is beyond tiresome. The Britons didn't come from Armenia. The compiler of the Chronicle made an error either of transcription or geography, & that's the end of it. It wouldn't be the only error in that work.

[Artaxat]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026845.000-memories-may-be-stored-on-your-dna.html


REMEMBER your first kiss? Experiments in mice suggest that patterns of chemical "caps" on our DNA may be responsible for preserving such memories.

To remember a particular event, a specific sequence of neurons must fire at just the right time. For this to happen, neurons must be connected in a certain way by chemical junctions called synapses. But how they last over decades, given that proteins in the brain, including those that form synapses, are destroyed and replaced constantly, is a mystery.

Now Courtney Miller and David Sweatt of the University of Alabama in Birmingham say that long-term memories may be preserved by a process called DNA methylation - the addition of chemical caps called methyl groups onto our DNA.

Many genes are already coated with methyl groups. When a cell divides, this "cellular memory" is passed on and tells the new cell what type it ...

[Artaxat]

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/11660


This is science. Not quackery or chrlatanism.

[Anthropologique]

I was just shocked that the Celts made it that far east, is all :)

Celticity was not an enduring phenomenon in Turkey / Galaitia. Nothing compared to Western Europe and the Atlantic Facade.

[Ar-Man]

Ekh... Armenians... :tsk:

Welsh 'Cymru' < KOMBROGES ('Fellow-countrymen'). There is NO link with Cimmerians, and such attempts to make one belong to the very STUPIDEST realms of pseudohistory.

Ekh Osweo, it's a very old & known theory. It can be coincidence as well, because the most of modern scientists don't accept it, but maybe the future will enlighten few things.


Premodern historians asserted Cimmerian descent for the Celts or the Germans, arguing from the similarity of Cimmerii to Cimbri or Cymry. It is unlikely that either Proto-Celtic or Proto-Germanic entered western Europe as late as the 7th century BC; their formation was commonly associated with the Bronze Age Urnfield and Nordic Bronze Age cultures, respectively. It is, however, conceivable that a small-scale (in terms of population) 8th century "Thraco-Cimmerian" migration triggered cultural changes that contributed to the transformation of the Urnfield culture into the Hallstatt C culture, ushering in the European Iron Age. Later Cimmerian remnant groups may have spread as far as to the Nordic Countries and the Rhine River. An example is the Cimbri tribe, considered to be a Germanic tribe hailing from the Himmerland (Old Danish Himber sysæl) region in northern Denmark.[15]
The etymology of Cymro "Welshman" (plural: Cymry), connected to the Cimmerians by 17th century Celticists, is now accepted by Celtic linguists as being derived from a Brythonic word *kom-brogos,[16][17][18][19] meaning "compatriots", (i.e. fellow-Brythons as opposed to the Anglo-Saxons).

[StonyArabia]

Europe was blocked by the Khazars, a Turkic tribe of the Oghurs and related to the Huns. This warlike and barbaric tribe conquered most of the region between the Black and Caspian sea, and this area is known as the Caucasus. These Khazars eventually converted to Judaism and even managed to raid Mosul in Northern Iraq. The Arab plan to conquer and create a pincer movement from the West through Iberia, and the Caucasus was thrown out of the window. As well several Byzantine emperors had Khazar consorts and one of their descendant was Leo IV known as Leo the Khazar. A forgotten incident and memory if it was not for the Khazars, the Arabs would have already marched into Eastern Europe. Source the The Thriteenth Tribe

[Osweo]

Europe was blocked by the Khazars, a Turkic tribe of the Oghurs and related to the Huns. This warlike and barbaric tribe conquered most of the region between the Black and Caspian sea, and this area is known as the Caucasus. These Khazars eventually converted to Judaism and even managed to raid Mosul in Northern Iraq. The Arab plan to conquer and create a pincer movement from the West through Iberia, and the Caucasus was thrown out of the window. As well several Byzantine emperors had Khazar consorts and one of their descendant was Leo IV known as Leo the Khazar. A forgotten incident and memory if it was not for the Khazars, the Arabs would have already marched into Eastern Europe. Source the The Thriteenth Tribe

There's some truth in that, but that book you cite is shite. :D How do you rate Gumilyov's Otkrytiya Khazarii?

[Artaxat]

Obvisouly the Kahazars did not manage the Turkic, Hun, Uyghur, Mongol,Judaic, Islamic invasions very well.

How could Volga Bulgaria



become to what now is known as

Tatarstan, Bashkhorotostan....

and southward Karashayevo-Cherkessia, Ingusheta, Adygeya, Karbardino-Balkariya, Dagestan,Chechnya. Each of which has Islamic poulation at least 54 percent up to 98 practising Sunni Islam?

[Artaxat]

By the way Bulgar is derived from the Turkic verb bulğa ("to mix", "shake, "stir") and its derivative bulgak ("revolt", "disorder") by most authorities.

disorder, chaos, occupy....

Before the Hunn-Bulgars arrive to what became known as Khazar, there was a people called the Alans. A group of Sarmatian Tribes.

"Around 370, the Alans were overwhelmed by the Huns. They were divided into several groups, some of whom fled westward. A portion of these western Alans joined the Vandals (East Germanic Tribe) and the Sueves (Schwabish, North Switzerland) in their invasion of Roman Gaul."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg
"Alan migrations in the 4th–5th centuries. Red: migrations; Orange: military expeditions; Yellow: settlement areas."

I remind here that King Artaxias I of the Armenian Artaxiad dynasty was married to Satenik, daughter of the king of Alans. They had six sons: Artavasdes (Artavazd), Vruyr, Mazhan, Zariadres (Zareh), Tiran and Tigranes (Tigran). Artaxias founded a capital, Artaxata on the Araks River near Lake Sevan. Hannibal took refuge there at his court when Antiochus could not protect him any longer. Artaxias was taken captive by Antiochus IV Epiphanes when he attacked Armenia around 165 BC.

Satenik, daughter of the King of Alans said these words which we save in our records, thanks to our Historian Father Moses of Xorene

"I speak to you, oh brave Artashes,

For you have defeated the brave Alan people;
Come, listen, to the bright-eyed Alan princess
And return the youth.
For it is unbecoming of heroes
To destroy the liveliness of other great warriors
Or to take and keep them in enslavement,
So that two valiant peoples
Are consigned to perpetual enmity."

Hearing these words, Artashes traveled down to the river and upon seeing Satenik, was immediately captivated by her beauty.[6] Artashes called on one of his close military commanders, Smbat Bagratuni, and confessing his desire for Satenik, expressed his willingness to conclude the treaty with the Alans and ordered Smbat to bring her to him. Smbat dispatched messengers to the Alanian king, who gave the following reply:

"And whence shall brave Artashes give thousands upon thousands and tens of thousands upon tens of thousands for the maiden of the brave Alan people?"

Artashes remained undaunted and instead sought to abduct Satenik since bride abductions were considered more honorable during this period than formal acquiescence:

King Artashes mounted his handsome black horse,

And taking out a red leather rope studded with golden rings,
And crossing the river like a sharp-winged eagle,
And throwing his red leather rope studded with golden rings,
Cast it upon the waist of the Alanian maiden,
And this hurt the delicate maiden's waist,
Quickly taking her back to his camp.

Following Satenik's abduction, Artashes agreed to pay to the Alans vast amounts of gold and red leather, the latter of which, was highly valued material among the Alans. With this, the two kings concluded a peace treaty and a lavish and magnificent wedding took place.

So Kahazars (Turkic - Hun) are not the original inhabitants which were the Alans, who prefered to leave to West Europe, rather than resist, or mix with the Huns.

[cilicia]

Ekh Osweo, it's a very old & known theory. It can be coincidence as well, because the most of modern scientists don't accept it, but maybe the future will enlighten few things.


Also, I think it's worth pointing out that this connection was not made by Armenians, but by a very famous English historian and antiquarian by the name of William Camden.

"The Cimbri were a tribe settled in Denmark ca. 200 BC, who were variously identified in ancient times as Cimmerian, Germanic or Celtic. In later times, some scholars connected them with the Welsh people, and descendants of Gomer. Among the first authors to identify Gomer, the Cimmerians, and Cimbri, with the Welsh name for themselves, Cymri, was the English antiquarian William Camden in his Britannia (first published in 1586).In his 1716 book Drych y Prif Oesoedd, Welsh antiquary Theophilus Evans also posited that the Welsh were descended from the Cimmerians and from Gomer; this was followed by a number of later writers of the 18th and 19th centuries."

[StonyArabia]

There's some truth in that, but that book you cite is shite. :D How do you rate Gumilyov's Otkrytiya Khazarii?

It's one of the best book on the subject, and it's must a read. It has more information than the Thirteenth tribe.


Obvisouly the Kahazars did not manage the Turkic, Hun, Uyghur, Mongol,Judaic, Islamic invasions very well.

They actually did. As for the Huns they became before the Khazars, and the same with the Uyghurs. Not at all Khazaria stood strong against the Arab Islamic invasions. The Arabs could never enter into Khazaria. However Khazaria was weakened by the Arab raids, and it was the Mongols who finally finished it of.


How could Volga Bulgaria
become to what now is known as
Tatarstan, Bashkhorotostan....

Their conversion to Islam was by will in the 10th century. The Volga Bulgarians were Kipchak Turks. Due to their Khans who adopted this new creed of Islam. As well it was the Tatars who gave the religion to their Bashkir neighbours.


southward Karashayevo-Cherkessia, Ingusheta, Adygeya, Karbardino-Balkariya, Dagestan,Chechnya. Each of which has Islamic poulation at least 54 percent up to 98 practising Sunni Islam?

Crimean Tatar missionaries brought Sunni Islam to the pagans and nominal Christians of the Caucasus. As well many Crimean Tatar khans had Caucasian wives, and many came from the Adyghe,Karbad, Karachay-Balkars ie collectively known Circassians peoples. The conversion of the NorthWest Caucasus to Islam was for a political alliance against Russia with the Crimean Khanate and Turkey(Ottoman Empire)

[Osweo]

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that this connection was not made by Armenians, but by a very famous English historian and antiquarian by the name of William Camden.
I actually use Camden in my own historical writings. HOWEVER, he was writing in 1610, when a LOT of things were not well known about the ancient world, and when the Bible was still too heavily leaned upon.

Camden brings a lot of useful British information together in his book, but when he wanders off into more interpretive matters, and extra-British affairs, he is WELL out of his depth. His musings on the name Cymru are utterly worthless nowadays.


It's one of the best book on the subject, and it's must a read.
Absolutely. I'm almost a disciple of Lev Nikolaych, znaite... ;)

it was the Mongols who finally finished it of.
What what what!?!? As a convicted russophile, I have to insist on Svyatoslav's role being paramount here!
http://i056.radikal.ru/0806/25/1bed3d08c71c.jpg
http://i031.radikal.ru/1104/61/8d15b5dae27a.jpg
:clap:

[d3cimat3d]

Yes, and earlier today I had been thinking about the Cimmerians , who settled in Gyumri, Armenia and Cappadocia. The Welsh claim descent from Cimmerians and have called Wales "Cymru" in honor of this. Gyumri and Cymru both mean "Land of Cimmerians". There is also a higher than average G2a rate in Wales.....

Cimmerians most likely were an R1a & I2a1b people. Their language was between Thracian and Iranic.


By the way Bulgar is derived from the Turkic verb bulğa ("to mix", "shake, "stir") and its derivative bulgak ("revolt", "disorder") by most authorities.

disorder, chaos, occupy....



Bulgars weren't real Turks. They were mostly just Scythians and Volga people who were Turkified. That's what I think at least.


Asparukh is a Middle Iranian male name attested in ancient Georgia and early medieval Bulgaria. It is a compound with the two elements: "aspa"- “horse” and "rukh" meaning “soul, spirit”, i.e., "he who has spirit of horse".

The two historically attested persons bearing this name are:

Asparukh, a viceroy of Armazi in Iberia (Georgia), contemporary of the Roman emperor Hadrian (117-38 AD).
Asparukh of Bulgaria, founder of the First Bulgarian Empire in the 680s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparukh_%28name%29

[Treffie]

Yes, and earlier today I had been thinking about the Cimmerians , who settled in Gyumri, Armenia and Cappadocia. The Welsh claim descent from Cimmerians and have called Wales "Cymru" in honor of this. Gyumri and Cymru both mean "Land of Cimmerians".

http://files.myopera.com/drlaunch/albums/94593/thumbs/no-not-rly001.jpg_thumb.jpg

[Zephyr]

One can upgrade his free time activities from playing Assassin's creed, to studying "Liberation Through Hearing During The Intermediate State" Transeference of Consciousness or Bardo Thodol (another ancient Aryan source)

On both you can spend a lifetime, but in the former case it will be your last lifetime, with the latter, will give you eternity. That is why, Armenia cannot be destroyed, and proved to be so.

A practice that teaches you to transmigrate your soul near death, ok.

But how do you link a tibetan buddhist concept with Armenia?

[Artaxat]

A practice that teaches you to transmigrate your soul near death, ok.

But how do you link a tibetan buddhist concept with Armenia?

For a genuine cause, one needs no practice.

This is a very natural biological function that will take place wether we like it or not.

Example is Mozart (who enters into a composer's family) in this way he guarantees that his Musical passion will not be igonored, since his father (a composer) will at some point teach him music ...

"in the fourth year of his age his father, for a game as it were, began to teach him a few minuets and pieces at the clavier. [...] He could play it faultlessly and with the greatest delicacy, and keeping exactly in time. [...] At the age of five, he was already composing little pieces, which he played to his father who wrote them down.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Artashes_I_funeral.jpg
Funeral of King Artaxias I by Giuseppe Canella (Italian painter)

Notice the Artaxias' corpse with his crown.

Also note the aged man (Artaxias I) Crowned, walking and burdened at his own funeral by his Kingdom's flag, sword and shield (which he does not give up event after Death). For him, the funeral is not what matters, but the continuation of his life's mission.

Although everyone around him are distracted in grief and confusion.

The Tibetan link I would like to avoid commenting here and now, but will certainly touch it at some point soon, we do have the material and the information, very interesting indeed. Even Vedic links.

Remember, Armenia claims to be the homeland of Indo-Europeans aka Aryans, and not only the Urheimat of Europeans. (Please forgive me, I do not want to sound arrogant, but there are information that has to be shared, that's why I commit to this effort, not for anything in return, but at least a few decent individuals get access to this info) Be free to Accept, Deny or Ignore the information, that is not my goal to convince anyone of anything.

But nevertheless it is high time we should maybe start Budhistic/Yogic/Consciousness topics. There is lots happening there, even in scientific circles. Neuroplasticity and meditation studies. Physiologic effects (heart beat, body temperature, DNA link with consciousness etc..

Best

[Osweo]

This fellow is a better instance of an Asparukh type name, underlining its Alanic origins;

Aspar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A detail of the Missorium of Aspar, depicting Aspar and his elder son Ardabur (434 c.).
Flavius Ardabur Aspar (c. 400 – 471) was an Alan patrician and magister militum ("Master of soldiers") of the Eastern Roman Empire. Aspar's family exerted a great influence on the Eastern Roman Emperors for half a century, from the 420s to his death in 471, over Theodosius II, Marcian and Leo I, who, in the end, had him killed.
Alans were an Iranic people and the name of Aspar (originally Aspwar or Aspidar) in Iranian languages means "Horse-master" and "Horse-rider".[1][2]

[Transhumanist]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Armenian_Highlands.jpg

Thanks. That map, unfortunately, omits one nation/area particularly important to myself, and a couple million other folks. I prefer this one:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/MapofAncientAssyria1922.jpg

And, perhaps one of the last maps to ever be drawn, with "Assyria" still clearly recognized. The map, and a magnification of a segment of the map. Note the Armenians and Kurds ("Curdi"), to the north and west of Lake Van respectively.

‎'Turcicum Imperium' by J.Lhuilier and F.De Wit. c.1680
‎"A decorative map of the Turkish Empire with Arabia prominent. Detail extends from Italy and the Mediterranean eastards to include northern Africa, the Caspian and beyond."

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/turcicumimperium.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/261209_831247516340_18914492_39841087_8299797_n.jp g

[Zephyr]

Hmm, interesting topic. It would appear that the genetic contribution was rather significant according to most of the data: "A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html

Of course, citing inconvenient facts can lead one to being called a "troll" around here in some cases...

Shabat Shalom, mr. Episcopalian.

Mayflower will always be a one way trip for marranos. Banned in 1620, banned in 2011.

[Zephyr]

For a genuine cause, one needs no practice.

This is a very natural biological function that will take place wether we like it or not.

Example is Mozart (who enters into a composer's family) in this way he guarantees that his Musical passion will not be igonored, since his father (a composer) will at some point teach him music ...

"in the fourth year of his age his father, for a game as it were, began to teach him a few minuets and pieces at the clavier. [...] He could play it faultlessly and with the greatest delicacy, and keeping exactly in time. [...] At the age of five, he was already composing little pieces, which he played to his father who wrote them down.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Artashes_I_funeral.jpg
Funeral of King Artaxias I by Giuseppe Canella (Italian painter)

Notice the Artaxias' corpse with his crown.

Also note the aged man (Artaxias I) Crowned, walking and burdened at his own funeral by his Kingdom's flag, sword and shield (which he does not give up event after Death). For him, the funeral is not what matters, but the continuation of his life's mission.

Although everyone around him are distracted in grief and confusion.

The Tibetan link I would like to avoid commenting here and now, but will certainly touch it at some point soon, we do have the material and the information, very interesting indeed. Even Vedic links.

Remember, Armenia claims to be the homeland of Indo-Europeans aka Aryans, and not only the Urheimat of Europeans. (Please forgive me, I do not want to sound arrogant, but there are information that has to be shared, that's why I commit to this effort, not for anything in return, but at least a few decent individuals get access to this info) Be free to Accept, Deny or Ignore the information, that is not my goal to convince anyone of anything.

But nevertheless it is high time we should maybe start Budhistic/Yogic/Consciousness topics. There is lots happening there, even in scientific circles. Neuroplasticity and meditation studies. Physiologic effects (heart beat, body temperature, DNA link with consciousness etc..

Best

So, armenians specialised in transmigration?

And other people, like me? Original creations with no past lives to tell?

[Ar-Man]

So, armenians specialised in transmigration?

And other people, like me? Original creations with no past lives to tell?

Man where did you read that? Seriously, you look pathetic when you try to make Armenians look "arrogant," "bad ass" and I don't know what. When it is you who is being very arrogant and cynical. :coffee:

P.S. Teachings of Mahati-Dzogchen are not related with "Muslim Conquests/Genetic effects of Europeans", so I think it was pretty obvious what Artaxat meant !

[Zephyr]

Man where did you read that? Seriously, you look pathetic when you try to make Armenians look "arrogant," "bad ass" and I don't know what. When it is you who is being very arrogant and cynical. :coffee:

P.S. Teachings of Mahati-Dzogchen are not related with "Muslim Conquests/Genetic effects of Europeans", so I think it was pretty obvious what Artaxat meant !

I know that you people act like a sect, ganging and mutually thanking, speaking on eachothers' behalf, but could you please drop that pack attitude for a while? Thanks.

I'm trying to have a frank conversation with an interesting individual. Don't need your opinion nor Bishop's noise.

[Ar-Man]

I know that you people act like a sect, ganging and mutually thanking, speaking on eachothers' behalf, but could you please drop that pack attitude for a while? Thanks.

I'm trying to have a frank conversation with an interesting individual. Don't need your opinion nor Bishop's noise.

We are more than a sect, we control all the sects, secret socieities, all movements, freemasons, illuminati, skull and bones etc. etc. you name it, we control them all. :coffee:

Like I said there is no need to be cynical. :wink

[Artaxat]

So, armenians specialised in transmigration?


Even if this was slightly cynical I still find it a healthy trait :)

Glad that you asked the question and that we are able to discuss these topics, although we are drifting off topic.

Today I consider Tibetans as specialists on transmigration sciences and they have documented the processes quite successfully. The texts are translated to English and accessible to anyone.

Armenia, on the other hand, specialised on the doctrine of Eternity, Immortality. To the extent that the eternity symbol is engraved on stones literally everywhere.

Iax2BWKWlJw

You can find Cross stones planted all over the Armenian Highlands called Khach Kar

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Khatchkar_at_Goshavank_Monastery_in_Armenia.jpg

Other than preserving collective national consciousness, "Most early khachkars were erected for the salvation of the soul of either a living or a deceased person..." in other words, you can carve a Cross stone while you are still alive, and use it then as an Anchor Stone for the after life. Just as Tomb stones.

Tibetans have similar mandalas that they put on the Corpse of the deceased, they call it liberation by wearing.

Earlier forms of Liberating and Protecting Stones are called Vishap Stones (Dragon Stones) such as this one on Mount Aragats.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Vishap_Mount_Aragats4.jpg

Even earlier forms exist at an astronomical site called Zorats Karer (empowered stones) or Kara Hhunge (Echoing Stones) at least 5000-7500 years ago. “The most commonly accepted theory about the meaning of Kara Hunge is that it is an ancient burial ground, or necropolis – a place to act as a bridge between the earth and the heavens in the cyclical journey of the soul involving life, death and rebirth.”

http://armenianamerica.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/carahunge.jpg

Here is a tomb in Noravank Armenia, of an Orbelian lord. Year 1200

http://www.gandzasar.com/assets/armenian-crown/tomb-of-elikum-iii-orbelian-noravank.jpg

The tomb engravement clearly shows a lion laying on his side with the paw under the head.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/images/5/5e/Sleeping_buddha.png

"Traditionally the position generally recommended for dying is to lie down on the right side, taking the position of "the sleeping lion," which is the posture in which Buddha died. The left hand rests on the left thigh; the right hand is placed under the chin, closing the right nostril. The legs are stretched out and very slightly bent"




And other people, like me? Original creations with no past lives to tell?

Everyone will seek for himself. We have to find our roots. That is why we are discussing and learning. Past experiences can come as flashes of past memories, it has happened to me, as well as intuitive feelings, and learning about your history and past. To die for a cause, is immortality.

This is so engraved into our national egregor, that our First True Patriarch, Hayk Nahabet refusing to subdue to Bel's Nimrod dominance, assembled his own army along the shore of Lake Van and told them that they must defeat and kill Bel, or die trying to do so, rather than become his slaves

This spirit still exists today.

In a bit non-philosophical demonstration, one Armenian knocking down a group of turks. :thumb001:

VghHktr89lE

[Armenian Bishop]

I know that you people act like a sect, ganging and mutually thanking, speaking on eachothers' behalf, but could you please drop that pack attitude for a while? Thanks.

I'm trying to have a frank conversation with an interesting individual. Don't need your opinion nor Bishop's noise.

I've sought to stay out of this, but now I see my name mentioned: I thanked Ar-Man because I've sensed a feeling of xenophobia that gives unwelcome feelings to Armenians.

It doesn't surprise me that Ar-Man perceived the comment as more than a frank conversation, but also embedded with a flavor of dislike towards Armenians. Perhaps, your questions about transmigration of the soul are interesting. Sorry, If I misunderstood your intent.

It's funny how people can make reference to a "pack attitude" among Armenians, yet are blind to the pack mentality directed against Armenians and their friends, more than once, especially on other threads. Apparently, the "pack attitude" goes both ways, and can also be found in anti-Armenian hysteria.

[Zephyr]

I've sought to stay out of this, but now I see my name mentioned

Can you stop for a while? I'm having a conversation. Thanks.

[Zephyr]

Today I consider Tibetans as specialists on transmigration sciences and they have documented the processes quite successfully. The texts are translated to English and accessible to anyone.

Armenia, on the other hand, specialised on the doctrine of Eternity, Immortality. To the extent that the eternity symbol is engraved on stones literally everywhere.

Everyone will seek for himself. We have to find our roots. That is why we are discussing and learning. Past experiences can come as flashes of past memories, it has happened to me, as well as intuitive feelings, and learning about your history and past. To die for a cause, is immortality.


What can happen in your opinion to people who don't prepare for an afterlife?

You mentioned that most likely a person's life will end with death if he or she has not prepared. But isn't that how everyone acts? I mean, most of people on earth don't prepare anything. They just live out their lives whether they are armenians or portuguese.

And where do the souls keep coming? World population keeps growing. Indians multiply. Wouldn't migration assume the number of souls is always the same?

[Armenian Bishop]

Can you stop for a while? I'm having a conversation. Thanks.

Yes, I see that you're discussing an interesting topic. Transmigration of the Soul interests me too. I've spent many years in contemplation about it. I'm glad that you will have opportunity to discuss it with Artaxata, and perhaps others.

[Osweo]

And where do the souls keep coming? World population keeps growing. Indians multiply. Wouldn't migration assume the number of souls is always the same?
Souls are stretched pretty thin, these days, yes. You never noticed how most people seem to have only a tiny bit of one? :p