Why are the people considered "ethnic Swiss" only those of Germanic background?

[Carl_uhul]

I don't understand why the people from this forum consider as "ethnic-Swiss" only those of Germanic background (thus, those with German surname) when the country is actually made-up of Germans, Frenches and Italians? Shouldn't the latter two groups also be considered "ethnic-Swiss" since Switzerland even has 3 official languages?
I see people of German-Swiss ancestry simply being referred to as a "Swiss" person, while they refer to people of Italian-Swiss ancestry as a "Swiss of Italian descent" and people of French-Swiss ancestry as "Swiss of French descent" (it's as if Swiss people of Italian and French ancestry were "foreigners" to Switzerland, while Swiss people of Germanic ancestry were the only "natives" to Switzerland).



For example:



Heinz Hermann, "Swiss" footballer:

https://www.ogol.com.br/img/jogadores/19/219019_ori_heinz_hermann.png



David Sesa, "Italian-Swiss footballer":

https://i.ibb.co/jRYM0HT/gettyimages-650871576-612x612.jpg



Stéphane Chapuisat, "French-Swiss footballer":

https://i.ibb.co/ykky0zC/chapuisat.jpg



All of them were born in Switzerland to Swiss parents. But it seems like the "German-Swiss" people are the only native people to the country, and the other two groups ("Italian-Swiss" and "French-Swiss") are foreigner to the country.
Why don't people call all these guys "Swiss" instead of calling only the one of Germanic background as "Swiss" and the other two they call "Swiss-Italian" and "Swiss-French"? I don't understand why this kind of stuff happens in Switzerland.

[noricum]

Because they are the largest ethnic group within the confederation and thereby set the standard for what is considered normal. Compare: French-Canadian

[Carl_uhul]

Because they are the largest ethnic group within the confederation and thereby set the standard for what is considered normal. Compare: French-Canadian

I thought English-Canadians were a larger group than French-Canadians to be honest

[noricum]

I thought English-Canadians were a larger group than French-Canadians to be honest

Indeed french speakers are a minority, thats why they get the prefix "french" unlike the majority of english speaking "just" Canadians.

[TheForeigner]

No such thing as ethnic Swiss! There are Swiss Germans, Swiss French, Swiss Italians and the Romansh. Those are the four native Swiss groups.

[TheForeigner]

Indeed french speakers are a minority, thats why they get the prefix "french" unlike the majority of english speaking "just" Canadians.

I think English speaking Euro-Canadians are termed 'English Canadians' sometimes, but I find that to be misleading since they are of varied European ancestry like Euro-Americans.

[Carl_uhul]

No such thing as ethnic Swiss! There are Swiss Germans, Swiss French, Swiss Italians and the Romansh. Those are the four native Swiss groups.

People usually say that native people of Switzerland and Austria are those of Germanic background.

[TheForeigner]

People usually say that native people of Switzerland and Austria are those of Germanic background.

They are right for Austria, but wrong about Switzerland which was multi-ethnic for centuries. However it is true that a large majority of native Swiss are German indeed and the confederation was founded and expanded by war by Swiss Germans.

[Carl_uhul]

They are right for Austria, but wrong about Switzerland which was multi-ethnic for centuries. However it is true that a large majority of native Swiss are German indeed and the confederation was founded and expanded by war by Swiss Germans.

Thanks for such informations!

[Catnip]

First time hearing this.

David Sesa is not Swiss Italian, but a descendant of immigrants from Sicily, and has dual citizenship.
He is Swiss of Italian descent, because that's what he is, just as Daniel Yule is a Swiss of English descent.

[Catnip]

Switzerland is complicated since lot of our minorities come from nations with whom we share a language - yet some can be quite different ethnically and culturally, as most of Italians are; because of the language, they assimilate quickly.

The major pan-movements, revolutions, and/or unifications that neighbouring countries experienced never reached the Swiss.

Swiss Italians are northernmost Lombards, and culturally similar to Swiss Germans from Sw parts.

Both Swiss Germans and French are descended from our indigenous Celts and Gallo-Romans, but from separate Germanic tribes: one from the Alemanni and the other from the Burgundians. Many people are mixed, bilingual, and having a German or French surname means nothing here, both are considered native.

Romansch are the keepers of the old Latin language. They are technically 'Swiss Vlachs' and are genetically related to others from their region.
Today, there are relatively few of them left, and they are also ethnically admixed, most frequently with German, followed by Italian speakers from their canton.

Swiss patriotism was never ethno-linguistic, but always cantonal.

The Alemanni were exceptionally tribal. There is not one Swiss German language, but a plethora of dialects and some cantons barely understand one another.

As for surnames, we share many with neighboring countries, but there are also many that are exclusive to the country.

[Ruggery]

Switzerland is complicated since lot of our minorities come from nations with whom we share a language - yet some can be quite different ethnically and culturally, as most of Italians are; because of the language, they assimilate quickly.

The major pan-movements, revolutions, and/or unifications that neighbouring countries experienced never reached the Swiss.

Swiss Italians are northernmost Lombards, and culturally similar to Swiss Germans from Sw parts.

Both Swiss Germans and French are descended from our indigenous Celts and Gallo-Romans, but from separate Germanic tribes: one from the Alemanni and the other from the Burgundians. Many people are mixed, bilingual, and having a German or French surname means nothing here, both are considered native.

Romansch are the keepers of the old Latin language. They are technically 'Swiss Vlachs' and are genetically related to others from their region.
Today, there are relatively few of them left, and they are also ethnically admixed, most frequently with German, followed by Italian speakers from their canton.

Swiss patriotism was never ethno-linguistic, but always cantonal.

The Alemanni were exceptionally tribal. There is not one Swiss German language, but a plethora of dialects and some cantons barely understand one another.

As for surnames, we share many with neighboring countries, but there are also many that are exclusive to the country.

It is incredible how Switzerland, having 4 official languages ​​and different ethnic groups, has managed to have a national unity unlike Belgium.

[Carl_uhul]

First time hearing this.

David Sesa is not Swiss Italian, but a descendant of immigrants from Sicily, and has dual citizenship.
He is Swiss of Italian descent, because that's what he is, just as Daniel Yule is a Swiss of English descent.

Do you have examples of known Swiss-Italians so I can edit my thread?

[Carl_uhul]

Switzerland is complicated since lot of our minorities come from nations with whom we share a language - yet some can be quite different ethnically and culturally, as most of Italians are; because of the language, they assimilate quickly.

The major pan-movements, revolutions, and/or unifications that neighbouring countries experienced never reached the Swiss.

Swiss Italians are northernmost Lombards, and culturally similar to Swiss Germans from Sw parts.

Both Swiss Germans and French are descended from our indigenous Celts and Gallo-Romans, but from separate Germanic tribes: one from the Alemanni and the other from the Burgundians. Many people are mixed, bilingual, and having a German or French surname means nothing here, both are considered native.

Romansch are the keepers of the old Latin language. They are technically 'Swiss Vlachs' and are genetically related to others from their region.
Today, there are relatively few of them left, and they are also ethnically admixed, most frequently with German, followed by Italian speakers from their canton.

Swiss patriotism was never ethno-linguistic, but always cantonal.

The Alemanni were exceptionally tribal. There is not one Swiss German language, but a plethora of dialects and some cantons barely understand one another.

As for surnames, we share many with neighboring countries, but there are also many that are exclusive to the country.

Wow, thanks for a such detailed explanation!

[PaganPoet]

It is incredible how Switzerland, having 4 official languages ​​and different ethnic groups, has managed to have a national unity unlike Belgium.

Because many Flemish politicians are stupid identity whores that want to galvanize citizens with their infantile narrative.

[Ruggery]

Because many Flemish politicians are stupid identity whores that want to galvanize citizens with their infantile narrative.

Are flemish the ones that cause the most tantrums?

I would say that in Switzerland patriotism is stronger than regionalism, even Swiss politicians, regardless of whether they speak German, French, Italian, etc., are very nationalistic.

In Belgium both regions have confrontations and that is something I have heard from many Belgians.

[Rumata]

People usually say that native people of Switzerland and Austria are those of Germanic background.
Many south Austrians have native Slavic (Slovenian) background.

[Sheppey]

It is incredible how Switzerland, having 4 official languages ​​and different ethnic groups, has managed to have a national unity unlike Belgium.

Simply because it is a small country that tries to stay neutral and is based around economic interests e.g. storing looted artwork stolen by the Nazis and gold teeth ripped out of Jewish skulls by the Nazis and because the Germans and Italians, combined, outnumber the French.

[Barba]

I would say that in Switzerland patriotism is stronger than regionalism, even Swiss politicians, regardless of whether they speak German, French, Italian, etc., are very nationalistic.

In Belgium both regions have confrontations and that is something I have heard from many Belgians.
They are special and can be very nationalistic as far as I've seen.
Swiss French are very pragmatic and somewhat rigorous, especially Geneve. Calvinists have been active there for a long time, and this is felt throughout the canton/region.

[Ruggery]

Simply because it is a small country that tries to stay neutral and is based around economic interests e.g. storing looted artwork stolen by the Nazis and gold teeth ripped out of Jewish skulls by the Nazis and because the Germans and Italians, combined, outnumber the French.

They have no choice, being neutral has saved them from invasions, in addition to being geographically privileged since Switzerland is a place that is very difficult to invade.

[Rogan]

They are special and can be very nationalistic as far as I've seen.
Swiss French are very pragmatic and somewhat rigorous, especially Geneve. Calvinists have been active there for a long time, and this is felt throughout the canton/region.
Like..being hard working?....stingy like Dutch?
Haven't visited the country yet, but those I've met gave me the impression of unity...when they are outside of the confederation

[Blondie]

People usually say that native people of Switzerland and Austria are those of Germanic background.

To be honest, most austrians have celtic background, influenced by germanic tribes long time ago. I would say they are 3/4 celtic + 1/4 germanic. They also have some slavic genetic imput, mostly eastern austrians.

[New brother]

To be honest, most austrians have celtic background, influenced by germanic tribes long time ago. I would say they are 3/4 celtic + 1/4 germanic. They also have some slavic genetic imput, mostly eastern austrians.
And germans too have celtic origin?

[Blondie]

And germans too have celtic origin?

Germans are celto-germanic in general. Southern germans like bavarians, austrians, swiss germans have more celtic imput, north germans have more germanic. East germans have siginificant slavic admixture too.

[Ruggery]

Germans are celto-germanic in general. Southern germans like bavarians, austrians, swiss germans have more celtic imput, north germans have more germanic. East germans have siginificant slavic admixture too.

Is this why Germans are often lumped in with the French on ancestry tests?

[Blondie]

Is this why Germans are often lumped in with the French on ancestry tests?

North french are very germanic shifted.

[Catnip]

Do you have examples of known Swiss-Italians so I can edit my thread?
Sorry, but I can't think of any football players.
Roberto di Matteo is also a Sicilian born here, but unlike Sesa, he played for Italy.


They are special and can be very nationalistic as far as I've seen.
Swiss French are very pragmatic and somewhat rigorous, especially Geneve. Calvinists have been active there for a long time, and this is felt throughout the canton/region.

Genève is very international, and Calvinist mentality still pervades the city.


Like..being hard working?....stingy like Dutch?
Haven't visited the country yet, but those I've met gave me the impression of unity...when they are outside of the confederation
In some cantons people prefer to split the bill at bars, so 'going dutch' is not uncommon, lolz.
But aside from that, I would say no, rather money-conscious.

[Catnip]

It is incredible how Switzerland, having 4 official languages ​​and different ethnic groups, has managed to have a national unity unlike Belgium.

All of the preconceptions about the Swiss, such as belief in direct democracy and autonomy, high degree of pragmatism and efficiency, punctuality and OCD-like opsession with order and cleanliness, etc.,are kind of true.
There is a strong connection.


Is this why Germans are often lumped in with the French on ancestry tests?

Yeah probably, especially Sw of Germany. They have higher percentage of R1b-U152 haplogroup that is linked to Italics and Alpine Celts, and it is thought to have originated around the Alps.

The most common is among the north/central Italians, French, Swiss, and to extent southwestern Germans.

It's interesting that it's the most common paternal HP among all the Swiss ethnic groups/subpopulations, with of course it's peak in Ticino among Italians.

[Jana]

To be honest, most austrians have celtic background, influenced by germanic tribes long time ago. I would say they are 3/4 celtic + 1/4 germanic. They also have some slavic genetic imput, mostly eastern austrians.

That's not really true though. South Germans/Austrians/Swiss Germans have lot higher Germanic than people think.
if you model them just as Germanic + Celtic, they will have modest Germanic.

That's not accurate model tho because they have lot of wog, but not all of it is Celtic.

More accurate model for them will be Germanic + Alpine Celtic + Imperial Roman, and in such case Germanic goes up significantly.

[rothaer]

I don't understand why the people from this forum consider as "ethnic-Swiss" only those of Germanic background (thus, those with German surname) when the country is actually made-up of Germans, Frenches and Italians? Shouldn't the latter two groups also be considered "ethnic-Swiss" since Switzerland even has 3 official languages?
I see people of German-Swiss ancestry simply being referred to as a "Swiss" person, while they refer to people of Italian-Swiss ancestry as a "Swiss of Italian descent" and people of French-Swiss ancestry as "Swiss of French descent" (it's as if Swiss people of Italian and French ancestry were "foreigners" to Switzerland, while Swiss people of Germanic ancestry were the only "natives" to Switzerland).

(...)

All of them were born in Switzerland to Swiss parents. But it seems like the "German-Swiss" people are the only native people to the country, and the other two groups ("Italian-Swiss" and "French-Swiss") are foreigner to the country.
Why don't people call all these guys "Swiss" instead of calling only the one of Germanic background as "Swiss" and the other two they call "Swiss-Italian" and "Swiss-French"? I don't understand why this kind of stuff happens in Switzerland.

I wouldn't do so and also in German it's not done. If you say Schweizer (Swiss) it can mean whatever Swiss and if you refer to a German speaking Swiss you say Deutschschweizer (Swiss German). Deutschschweizer is used pretty often. So actually all in line with how you claim that it should be.

Regardless of this the Germans are the core Swiss and not just the by far biggest (double as much as all others together) of the four ethnic groups. The historical-political nucleus of Switzerland was the alliance (Rütlischwur: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCtli_Oath) of the three German Cantons Uri, Schwyz and Unterwalden, one of which even carried (and still carries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Schwyz) the Switzerland name. All other cantons later just joined at some point of time.

[rothaer]

That's not really true though. South Germans/Austrians/Swiss Germans have lot higher Germanic than people think.
if you model them just as Germanic + Celtic, they will have modest Germanic.

That's not accurate model tho because they have lot of wog, but not all of it is Celtic.

More accurate model for them will be Germanic + Alpine Celtic + Imperial Roman, and in such case Germanic goes up significantly.

The latter is correct. But I'm not sure, nor I can currently without further examinations with confidence determine, what model is more correct.

Two aspects IMO have to be found out:

1. How much Subalpine Wog (SAW) is there? We maybe should model some Alpine Northern Italians where we can assume that they did not recieve any Germanic and that thus can be regarded representative for post Roman Empire Alpine population. I'd suggest some Alpine regions at the Italian/French border.

2. One more thing that is necessary for a correct modelling would be to determine the genetics of the pre Germanic and pre Roman population of the Southern German areas north of the Alps (like Baden-Württemberg). Where they purely "Celtic-like" (Austria IA La Tène) or did they exhibit "Germanic" in a modelling?

[Russki]

The latter is correct. But I'm not sure, nor I can currently without further examinations with confidence determine, what model is more correct.

Two aspects IMO have to be found out:

1. How much Subalpine Wog (SAW) is there? We maybe should model some Alpine Northern Italians where we can assume that they did not recieve any Germanic and that thus can be regarded representative for post Roman Empire Alpine population. I'd suggest some Alpine regions at the Italian/French border.

2. One more thing that is necessary for a correct modelling would be to determine the genetics of the pre Germanic and pre Roman population of the Southern German areas north of the Alps (like Baden-Württemberg). Where they purely "Celtic-like" (Austria IA La Tène) or did they exhibit "Germanic" in a modelling?


Austrian La Tene is comfortably closer to Illyrians than to French-Czech-Slovak IA.

Maybe Austrian La Tene were Celtified Illyrians for the most part, like 1/3 Celtic and 2/3 Illyrian or so.


https://sun9-38.userapi.com/impg/AuphfxC4mON3Gl-JjCFWfRv17nyo6JMCgXimPg/7a-D9g1drUY.jpg?size=1279x753&quality=95&sign=b3130976b309c770866e1ab35c3367d1&type=album

[Jana]

Austrian La Tene is comfortably closer to Illyrians than to French-Czech-Slovak IA.

Maybe Austrian La Tene were Celtified Illyrians for the most part, like 1/3 Celtic and 2/3 Illyrian or so.


https://sun9-38.userapi.com/impg/AuphfxC4mON3Gl-JjCFWfRv17nyo6JMCgXimPg/7a-D9g1drUY.jpg?size=1279x753&quality=95&sign=b3130976b309c770866e1ab35c3367d1&type=album

Why would they be Celtified when La Tene is Celtic urheimat?

Northern Illyrians samples like these had known Celtic contacts, check wiki article abput Iyapodes for example.

Some Czech IA samples look pure Scandinavian. Some French IA samples look like NW block or insular Celtic shifted.

[rothaer]

Switzerland is complicated since lot of our minorities come from nations with whom we share a language - yet some can be quite different ethnically and culturally, as most of Italians are; because of the language, they assimilate quickly.

The major pan-movements, revolutions, and/or unifications that neighbouring countries experienced never reached the Swiss.

Swiss Italians are northernmost Lombards, and culturally similar to Swiss Germans from Sw parts.

Both Swiss Germans and French are descended from our indigenous Celts and Gallo-Romans, but from separate Germanic tribes: one from the Alemanni and the other from the Burgundians. Many people are mixed, bilingual, and having a German or French surname means nothing here, both are considered native.

Romansch are the keepers of the old Latin language. They are technically 'Swiss Vlachs' and are genetically related to others from their region.
Today, there are relatively few of them left, and they are also ethnically admixed, most frequently with German, followed by Italian speakers from their canton.

Swiss patriotism was never ethno-linguistic, but always cantonal.

The Alemanni were exceptionally tribal. There is not one Swiss German language, but a plethora of dialects and some cantons barely understand one another.

As for surnames, we share many with neighboring countries, but there are also many that are exclusive to the country.

Agreed to all but maybe the assessment of "Lombards". Not sure what exactly makes a Northern Italian a "Lombard".

Funny that you link the French to the (Eastern Germanic) Burgundians. This will be true as for the Swiss area. I often wondered: Is the Röstigraben even perfectly the border between Alemanns and Burgundians or do you know any part of the Burgundian area that is German speaking today? Likely not as it would be a dialectal sensation, I guess.

As for the German (Alemannian) dialects I like this map:

https://i.imgur.com/TxTHK4o.jpg

Note that you have a minuscle dialectal Bavarian part in Switzerland (Samnaun) and that you have three main Alemannic dialectal groups in the small Vorarlberg (an Austrian state).

[Jana]

The latter is correct. But I'm not sure, nor I can currently without further examinations with confidence determine, what model is more correct.

Two aspects IMO have to be found out:

1. How much Subalpine Wog (SAW) is there? We maybe should model some Alpine Northern Italians where we can assume that they did not recieve any Germanic and that thus can be regarded representative for post Roman Empire Alpine population. I'd suggest some Alpine regions at the Italian/French border.

2. One more thing that is necessary for a correct modelling would be to determine the genetics of the pre Germanic and pre Roman population of the Southern German areas north of the Alps (like Baden-Württemberg). Where they purely "Celtic-like" (Austria IA La Tène) or did they exhibit "Germanic" in a modelling?

1. Not sure it's possible to find North Italians without Germanic input.

2. Good question. France (Alsace IA) which borders BW has diverse samples, some look like Austria IA and some are lot more northern shifting towards Belgae or somerhing pre Celto-Germanic NW European.

[Russki]

Why would they be Celtified when La Tene is Celtic urheimat?

Northern Illyrians samples like these had known Celtic contacts, check wiki article abput Iyapodes for example.

Some Czech IA samples look pure Scandinavian. Some French IA samples look like NW block or insular Celtic shifted.


There are a full 3 possible scenarios:

1. French IA, Czech IA, Slovak IA were Germanic-admixed.

2. Austrian IA, Hungarian IA were Illyrian-admixed.

3. French IA, Czech IA and Slovak IA didn't fully absorb their farmers as late as into the Iron Age (unlikely because the outliers tend to be more Northern European than Southern European shifted).



Czech_IA_LaTene:I13780,0.120652,0.126941,0.072784, 0.060724,0.030775,0.021753,0.00329,0.016384,0.0067 49,-0.011299,-0.009581,-0.002098,-0.003717,0.000826,0.012079,0.012861,0.01356,0.0026 6,0.00088,0.003877,0.001373,0.009398,0.004067,0.00 7471,0.001078
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14984,0.127482,0.144205,0.054305, 0.021641,0.040623,0.003626,-0.00141,0.000692,0.016771,0.022962,-0.005684,0.005695,-0.01665,-0.024222,0.007057,0.013922,0.019166,0.004814,-0.002263,0.002001,0.002745,0.000618,-0.00037,0.004579,-0.000958
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14985,0.129758,0.145221,0.049026, 0.021318,0.045239,0.015897,0.00376,0.001846,0.0051 13,0.020775,0.000487,0.014387,-0.012785,-0.010322,0.010586,-0.002784,-0.018254,0.003547,-0.003017,0.00025,-0.001872,0.009521,0.000493,-0.010001,0.000239
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14986,0.135449,0.140143,0.044877, 0.018088,0.042777,0.001116,0.00188,0.003923,0.0106 35,0.01057,0,0.004046,-0.018137,-0.014313,0.001357,0.019491,0.012517,-0.00266,0.001885,0.005378,0.004367,0.003339,-0.002835,0.001205,-0.004071
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14987,0.130897,0.13405,0.059585,0 .043605,0.037238,0.009482,0.00047,0.003692,0.00409 ,0.014943,-0.00682,0.006444,-0.016204,-0.015276,0.017508,0.022142,0.011343,0.001014,-0.006536,0.003377,0.00262,0,-0.004807,0.006627,0.003353
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15039,0.132035,0.144205,0.06675,0 .030362,0.046162,0.020359,0.005405,0.005307,0.0069 54,0.002369,-0.004709,0.002398,-0.007879,-0.003441,0.004343,-0.010209,-0.015385,0.003547,0.000126,-0.002876,0.002995,0.002349,-0.006532,-0.017472,0.003712
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15040,0.134311,0.140143,0.056945, 0.047158,0.031698,0.008646,0.011751,0.002538,-0.00225,-0.002916,0.001461,0.005545,-0.007879,-0.011285,0.017508,0.001326,-0.001043,0.00152,0.00352,0.006753,0.010482,0.00222 6,-0.002958,0.006868,-0.007185
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15042,0.127482,0.147252,0.049026, 0.011305,0.052933,-0.004741,0.001645,0.003923,0.018407,0.028247,-0.005034,0.006744,-0.020961,-0.017203,0.003664,0.014717,0.021122,-0.00038,0.010307,0.003001,-0.002121,0.007048,-0.000246,-0.002169,-0.008382
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15043,0.132035,0.144205,0.064111, 0.023579,0.043393,0.002231,0.00094,0.002538,0.0126 8,0.023873,-0.005196,0.005245,-0.020367,-0.011973,-0.000136,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002534,0.00264,-0.008004,-0.003119,-0.001237,0.001109,-0.000241,0.006227
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15044,0.125205,0.135065,0.067505, 0.037145,0.040931,0.011435,0.008225,-0.001846,0.00634,0.002005,-0.003085,0.01109,-0.013974,-0.012111,0.010722,0.020021,0.012386,-0.00038,0.004902,0.004252,-0.002496,0.004946,-0.00493,0.003374,-0.003832
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15045,0.125205,0.129988,0.057322, 0.064277,0.034776,0.018965,-0.00188,0.005307,0.003068,-0.002005,-0.004547,0.002248,-0.00669,-0.011973,0.021715,0.007823,-0.002738,-0.003041,-0.004274,-0.001,0.002121,0.000124,-0.00493,0.014098,-0.001916
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15046,0.127482,0.140143,0.058831, 0.020995,0.0437,0.002789,0.002585,0.005538,0.00940 8,0.02278,0,0.005695,-0.017393,-0.011423,0.005836,0.000133,0.000261,0.006714,-0.001508,-0.000375,0.004118,0.009521,-0.003944,0.006507,-0.000479
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15047,0.12862,0.140143,0.052043,0 .021318,0.045547,0.001116,-0.000235,-0.002769,0.005318,0.019135,-0.001137,0.001649,-0.001784,-0.003716,0.002036,0.005304,-0.001825,0.003674,0.004274,0.009755,-0.000125,0.003586,-0.005916,-0.003012,-0.00012
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15048,0.129758,0.136081,0.059962, 0.031654,0.044624,0.006693,0.001175,0.007846,0.006 545,0.019317,-0.009906,0.009741,-0.008771,-0.008808,0.002714,0.002121,-0.005085,0.004054,0.006788,0.001,0.002745,0.003957 ,-0.006409,0.001446,-0.001197
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15049,0.121791,0.131003,0.067127, 0.055879,0.041238,0.0251,0.003995,0.003692,0.01309 ,0.007654,-0.000487,-0.002398,-0.011447,-0.014313,0.016965,0.007823,-0.006258,-0.007728,0.00176,0.01113,0.00574,0.006801,-0.00037,0.001205,0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15950,0.130897,0.133034,0.072784, 0.062016,0.032929,0.016455,0.004935,0.007154,0.003 681,-0.004374,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.002676,-0.014313,0.016694,0.02148,0.011083,0.005828,-0.003771,0.005753,0.001123,-0.008285,0.000616,0.007832,0.001197
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15951,0.127482,0.152329,0.062979, 0.036822,0.049855,0.003347,0.003995,0.004615,0.009 204,0.01549,-0.008119,-0.001798,-0.008176,-0.005092,0.005429,0.006629,-0.001956,-0.000127,0.007039,0.006128,0.01123,0.006925,-0.008874,-0.007109,0.002515
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15952,0.132035,0.139128,0.046763, 0.021641,0.038776,0.006693,0.00235,0.008307,0.0104 31,0.024966,0.001137,0.006294,-0.012933,0.000826,-0.005565,-0.001061,0.002477,0.003167,0.006662,0.004127,-0.004617,0.003215,-0.00949,-0.00241,0
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15954,0.12862,0.148267,0.048649,0 .013889,0.035391,0.009482,0.007285,0.005538,0.0141 12,0.021322,0.001299,0.01169,-0.020515,-0.012111,0.005022,-0.013524,-0.018515,0.001394,0.001257,-0.007253,0.00574,0.014715,-0.008874,0.002289,-0.008143
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16268,0.12862,0.127957,0.071276,0 .06137,0.042777,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002769,0.011044,-0.010387,-0.01023,0.006294,-0.007582,0.000138,0.019137,0.008884,-0.006389,0.008615,0.00264,0.016258,0.011105,0.0096 45,-0.006409,0.013496,-0.002036
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16269,0.144555,0.118817,0.054305, 0.039729,0.043393,0.006693,0.00658,0.004384,0.0028 63,-0.002916,-0.016239,-0.003597,-0.000297,-0.00867,0.018051,0.01538,0.001043,0.00266,0.016969 ,-0.012006,-0.004617,0.00371,-0.006409,0.002048,0.000359
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16270,0.125205,0.121864,0.058831, 0.051357,0.019696,0.014502,0.002115,0.018692,-0.005113,-0.010934,0.004709,0.000899,-0.005054,-0.007432,0.005565,0.01538,0.005607,0.004307,0.0096 79,0.002626,0.012977,-0.001607,-0.004683,0.011086,-0.003832
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16271,0.129758,0.151314,0.058077, 0.021318,0.05201,0.006972,0.009165,-0.002308,0.018407,0.01877,-0.00747,0.010041,-0.01442,-0.002615,0.018051,-0.011535,-0.010691,0.004434,0.002765,0.003752,-0.002121,0.000371,-0.007025,-0.006627,0.003952
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16272,0.125205,0.133034,0.062225, 0.06137,0.040007,0.013387,-0.00188,0.000692,0.005727,-0.002551,-0.00747,0.002248,-0.000743,0.003441,0.013572,-0.000133,-0.001434,0.002407,0.003394,0.008629,-0.001123,0.005812,-0.001602,-0.003012,-0.003233
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16273,0.130897,0.135065,0.063733, 0.052003,0.038469,0.009203,0.00188,0.002077,0.0028 63,0.006014,-0.006983,0.009292,-0.008622,-0.026561,0.017236,0.008884,0.011213,0.001774,0.002 263,0.003877,0.009858,0.008656,0.00493,0.010363,0. 00455
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Czech_IA_LaTene:I17143,0.12862,0.146236,0.061094,0 .01615,0.044316,0.014223,0.005405,0.004154,0.01288 5,0.021686,0.005196,0.009741,-0.022002,-0.013487,0.010179,-0.000265,-0.01017,-0.001774,0.000251,-0.001376,0.010606,0.01014,0,-0.002651,0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17145,0.12862,0.145221,0.053928,0 .005814,0.042162,0.001116,0.004465,-0.001154,0.016771,0.029704,-0.003248,0.008842,-0.012487,0.003303,0.005157,-0.004906,-0.01343,-0.003801,0.007416,-0.009379,0.00287,-0.001731,-0.006532,-0.003735,-0.000958
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17146,0.122929,0.150298,0.059208, 0.020995,0.047701,0.004462,0.000705,-0.006,0.025975,0.028064,-0.005684,-0.001948,-0.01219,-0.009634,0.006107,0.014717,0.014212,0.003801,0.004 902,0.006128,0.008735,0.005441,-0.008751,-0.001687,-0.002275
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17314,0.127482,0.148267,0.04978,0 .027132,0.036007,0.011156,0.001175,0.007154,0.0047 04,0.014761,-0.001137,0.002548,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.011808,0.010077,0.004955,-0.002407,-0.00729,0.005878,0.003369,0.01014,-0.002342,0.00482,-0.006466
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17315,0.12862,0.125926,0.046386,0 .039406,0.044008,-0.001116,0.003525,0.018461,0.013294,0.009659,0.001 299,0.009142,-0.016501,-0.020506,0.014251,0.003315,-0.011604,-0.002027,-0.006411,0.012506,0.003119,0.001607,-0.007888,-0.004217,-0.017364
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17316,0.119514,0.123895,0.055814, 0.059432,0.022773,0.013666,0.00188,0.014307,-0.015135,-0.021504,-0.00747,0.009292,-0.01219,-0.018579,0.021037,0.020817,0.001173,0.003041,-0.009302,0.008879,-0.000374,-0.001731,0.00986,0.002048,0.008263
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Czech_IA_LaTene:I17321,0.130897,0.140143,0.057322, 0.019057,0.046778,0.014502,-0.000705,0.001615,0.010022,0.023326,-0.009906,0.011839,-0.018434,-0.016377,0.010043,0.009944,-0.001173,0.002027,0.015587,0.001876,0.018343,-0.000495,-0.000863,0.00241,-0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17322,0.12862,0.129988,0.07203,0. 069445,0.037238,0.014502,-0.00141,0.004615,-0.000818,-0.01385,-0.002436,0.005995,-0.002527,-0.001101,0.010043,0.011403,-0.003129,0.002534,0.004902,0.012381,-0.000624,0.003339,0.002095,-0.007832,-0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17323,0.126344,0.138112,0.048271, 0.017442,0.05601,-0.008088,0.004465,-0.001154,0.020248,0.029887,-0.002761,0.002997,-0.016204,-0.007569,0.008822,-0.00769,-0.015907,0.004687,0.000503,-0.008754,-0.006988,0.011252,-0.013804,-0.021449,-0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17327,0.130897,0.12491,0.067505,0 .059432,0.034468,0.03012,0.00893,0.01823,-0.006749,-0.012028,-0.005034,0.002398,-0.005203,-0.002202,0.023751,-0.00358,-0.021383,0.003421,-0.000377,0.000875,0.003244,-0.000866,0.005916,0.014219,0.001916
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20504,0.119514,0.147252,0.040729, 0.027455,0.040315,0.016176,0,0.00923,-0.002863,0.00164,-0.003735,0.013338,-0.008325,-0.022295,0.008415,0.014054,0.007693,0.003294,0.004 777,-0.000375,-0.004367,-0.001855,-0.001479,0.005181,-0.011616
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20509,0.133173,0.11577,0.079195,0 .082042,0.057857,0.02008,0.00188,0.009,0.015748,0. 004556,-0.018675,3e-04,-0.002527,-0.002064,0.027551,0.001326,-0.007693,0.002154,-0.005782,0.005253,0.003494,-0.004575,-0.008874,0.00735,0.002754
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20513,0.12862,0.139128,0.06675,0. 013566,0.046162,-0.013387,0.014806,0.014076,0.014317,0.023508,-0.008119,0.019633,-0.000892,-0.020368,-0.0038,0.004641,-0.011474,0.005194,0.022626,-0.022261,-0.007612,0.001484,-0.005053,-0.003856,0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20519,0.122929,0.139128,0.052043, 0.037791,0.0437,0.010598,0.00329,0.003231,0.014726 ,0.018588,0.001461,0.001948,-0.020812,-0.007844,-0.008279,0.023071,0.010691,-0.004814,0.010684,-0.002126,-0.008859,-0.005317,0.006409,0.007471,-0.000718
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20522,0.120652,0.136081,0.054305, 0.025194,0.038469,0.003068,0.00376,0.003692,0.0128 85,0.025331,0.000974,0.016036,-0.015015,-0.018854,0.0019,0.010607,0.020079,0.004181,-0.004651,0.00988,0.010981,0.003462,-0.001356,0.002048,-0.002275
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11712,0.12862,0.147252,0.0561 91,0.031654,0.046778,0.006136,-0.00282,0.000692,0.00634,0.020775,-0.006658,0.004946,-0.009068,-0.01156,0.010179,0.003713,0.00013,0.002027,0.00729 ,-0.001501,-0.000749,0.00136,-0.002465,-0.00253,0.004431
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11713,0.12862,0.149283,0.0527 97,0.02907,0.047086,0.014781,-0.00235,-0.002077,0.013499,0.016037,0.00065,0.003447,-0.01219,-0.015276,0.004479,0.005436,-0.003912,0.007475,0.000628,-0.001376,0.001872,0.003833,-0.005053,-0.001566,-0.005149
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11715,0.122929,0.148267,0.061 471,0.02907,0.033852,0.010877,0.003055,0.011999,0. 011044,0.025149,-0.000162,0.002548,-0.012933,0,0.012215,-0.004906,-0.017602,0.000633,0.011439,-0.009254,0.004991,-0.000124,-0.003451,-0.000602,0.017244
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11716,0.129758,0.141159,0.047 517,0.011951,0.04647,0.007251,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.00859,0.023326,-0.003897,0.010491,-0.013974,0.001789,-0.000271,-0.004508,0.007693,0.003674,0.005405,0.004377,-0.001248,0.008903,0.000739,-0.00241,0.001916
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:Jeb8.SG,0.119514,0.138112,0 .055814,0.029716,0.044931,-0.006414,-0.004465,0.002077,0.009817,0.01057,0.000162,0.0080 93,-0.022894,-0.009083,0.019272,0.007823,0.002217,-0.001014,-0.000754,0.003001,-0.005615,-0.003091,-0.011832,-0.00723,0.004431
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR2B6.SG,0.118376,0.142174 ,0.04714,0.004199,0.042469,0.000279,-0.011751,0.010615,0.019225,0.01385,0.011367,0.0113 9,-0.005203,-0.004679,0.013029,0.016176,0.030379,0.007855,0.005 656,0.003627,0.004742,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.001084,-0.010538
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France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR3-15.SG,0.113823,0.148267,0.064111,0.019057,0.041238 ,-0.006693,0.00564,-0.001615,0.013703,0.019135,-0.007307,-0.001199,-0.014569,-0.013487,0.024158,-0.004508,-0.02047,-0.008235,-0.006913,0.010255,-0.003119,-0.003339,-0.017748,0.001687,-0.002036
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France_GrandEst_IA2:I19357,0.130897,0.137096,0.060 716,0.051034,0.050779,0.003904,0.004465,0.009,0.00 8795,0.009841,-0.004384,0.005695,-0.006392,-0.007707,0.015065,-0.006497,-0.020992,0.003674,0.000126,-0.004127,0.013102,0.014467,-0.010106,-0.00241,-0.001197
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19358,0.130897,0.13405,0.0426 15,0.031654,0.046778,0.019801,0.009635,-0.000231,0.010022,0.010387,0.014128,0.013638,-0.00892,-0.002202,0.0076,-0.012331,-0.021774,-0.001014,-0.001006,-0.005127,0.007237,0.001607,0.002342,0.003615,0.002 874
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19362,0.133173,0.137096,0.067 127,0.046835,0.03139,0.010598,0.004935,0.009,0.000 409,0.004738,-0.007957,0.005095,-0.012785,-0.006468,0.017644,-0.004906,-0.004172,0.006208,0.009302,0.005253,0.002246,0.007 79,0.00419,0.001807,-0.00491
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20815,0.124067,0.144205,0.055 06,0.034238,0.054779,0.010877,0.00799,0.006,0.0112 49,0.015672,-0.01023,0.016485,-0.005649,-0.00578,0.013708,-0.016839,-0.019427,0.006208,0.007416,-0.007629,0.004243,0.006801,-0.00949,0.001084,-0.008502
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20817,0.129758,0.137096,0.057 322,0.044251,0.043085,0.01757,0.00423,-0.006461,0.005727,0.003827,-0.007957,0.01109,-0.014569,-0.013212,0.022258,-0.006629,-0.020992,0.005954,-0.00088,0.01113,0.010606,0.00507,0.003821,0.002892 ,0.001796
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20827,0.124067,0.140143,0.056 945,0.023902,0.048624,0.009482,0.010575,0.001615,0 .008999,0.02442,-0.005684,0.002847,-0.023786,-0.007294,0.006107,0.013259,-0.006519,-0.000633,0.011564,0.00075,0.000624,-0.000247,0.003328,-0.006386,-0.001317
France_GrandEst_IA2:I21399,0.126344,0.144205,0.057 322,0.026163,0.055703,0.006972,0.006815,0.001385,0 .021475,0.023144,-0.006333,0.006594,-0.019772,-0.009496,0.011672,0.002917,0.003912,0.002027,-0.007165,-0.001501,0.006988,0.011005,-0.011955,-0.002289,-0.001916
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France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:ERS88.SG,0.129758,0.156392, 0.043369,0.005168,0.032621,0.000279,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.01309,0.024966,-0.00341,-0.003297,-0.02661,-0.01679,0.015336,-0.013922,-0.015255,-0.008108,-0.016466,-0.003502,-0.005366,0.000371,0.00037,0.003374,0.001796
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:ERS1164.SG,0.124067,0.12491 ,0.05506,0.031977,0.032621,0.011156,0.00893,0.0108 46,0,0.016583,-0.005359,-0.01109,-0.010555,-0.010872,0.009365,0.004641,-0.002999,0.00076,0.003771,-0.004877,-0.007986,0.002473,0.0053,-0.012652,0.005628
France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG:ATT26.SG,0.113823,0.13 5065,0.044877,0.038437,0.042777,0.015618,-0.00799,0.011538,0.014317,0.021504,0.001299,0.0085 42,-0.02438,-0.017065,0.003393,0.009149,0.009779,0.005954,0.009 553,-0.013006,0.003244,0.009027,0.020582,-0.003133,0.007305
France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG:BFM265.SG,0.118376,0.1 48267,0.051666,0.037791,0.04924,0.016733,-0.003525,-0.001846,0.00859,0.015308,-0.005684,0.004646,-0.017988,-0.007844,0.018458,-0.003315,-0.013821,0.013556,0.006159,0.006628,-0.001123,0.003215,-0.00037,-0.001205,-0.000838

[rothaer]

1. Not sure it's possible to find North Italians without Germanic input.

2. Good question. France (Alsace IA) which borders BW has diverse samples, some look like Austria IA and some are lot more northern shifting towards Belgae or somerhing pre Celto-Germanic NW European.

Interesting. Could you provide me some (say 2 or three)?

[rothaer]

There are a full 3 possible scenarios:

1. French IA, Czech IA, Slovak IA were Germanic-admixed.

2. Austrian IA, Hungarian IA were Illyrian-admixed.

3. French IA, Czech IA and Slovak IA didn't fully absorb their farmers as late as into the Iron Age (unlikely because the outliers tend to be more Northern European than Southern European shifted).



Czech_IA_LaTene:I13780,0.120652,0.126941,0.072784, 0.060724,0.030775,0.021753,0.00329,0.016384,0.0067 49,-0.011299,-0.009581,-0.002098,-0.003717,0.000826,0.012079,0.012861,0.01356,0.0026 6,0.00088,0.003877,0.001373,0.009398,0.004067,0.00 7471,0.001078
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14984,0.127482,0.144205,0.054305, 0.021641,0.040623,0.003626,-0.00141,0.000692,0.016771,0.022962,-0.005684,0.005695,-0.01665,-0.024222,0.007057,0.013922,0.019166,0.004814,-0.002263,0.002001,0.002745,0.000618,-0.00037,0.004579,-0.000958
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14985,0.129758,0.145221,0.049026, 0.021318,0.045239,0.015897,0.00376,0.001846,0.0051 13,0.020775,0.000487,0.014387,-0.012785,-0.010322,0.010586,-0.002784,-0.018254,0.003547,-0.003017,0.00025,-0.001872,0.009521,0.000493,-0.010001,0.000239
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14986,0.135449,0.140143,0.044877, 0.018088,0.042777,0.001116,0.00188,0.003923,0.0106 35,0.01057,0,0.004046,-0.018137,-0.014313,0.001357,0.019491,0.012517,-0.00266,0.001885,0.005378,0.004367,0.003339,-0.002835,0.001205,-0.004071
Czech_IA_LaTene:I14987,0.130897,0.13405,0.059585,0 .043605,0.037238,0.009482,0.00047,0.003692,0.00409 ,0.014943,-0.00682,0.006444,-0.016204,-0.015276,0.017508,0.022142,0.011343,0.001014,-0.006536,0.003377,0.00262,0,-0.004807,0.006627,0.003353
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15039,0.132035,0.144205,0.06675,0 .030362,0.046162,0.020359,0.005405,0.005307,0.0069 54,0.002369,-0.004709,0.002398,-0.007879,-0.003441,0.004343,-0.010209,-0.015385,0.003547,0.000126,-0.002876,0.002995,0.002349,-0.006532,-0.017472,0.003712
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15040,0.134311,0.140143,0.056945, 0.047158,0.031698,0.008646,0.011751,0.002538,-0.00225,-0.002916,0.001461,0.005545,-0.007879,-0.011285,0.017508,0.001326,-0.001043,0.00152,0.00352,0.006753,0.010482,0.00222 6,-0.002958,0.006868,-0.007185
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15042,0.127482,0.147252,0.049026, 0.011305,0.052933,-0.004741,0.001645,0.003923,0.018407,0.028247,-0.005034,0.006744,-0.020961,-0.017203,0.003664,0.014717,0.021122,-0.00038,0.010307,0.003001,-0.002121,0.007048,-0.000246,-0.002169,-0.008382
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15043,0.132035,0.144205,0.064111, 0.023579,0.043393,0.002231,0.00094,0.002538,0.0126 8,0.023873,-0.005196,0.005245,-0.020367,-0.011973,-0.000136,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002534,0.00264,-0.008004,-0.003119,-0.001237,0.001109,-0.000241,0.006227
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15044,0.125205,0.135065,0.067505, 0.037145,0.040931,0.011435,0.008225,-0.001846,0.00634,0.002005,-0.003085,0.01109,-0.013974,-0.012111,0.010722,0.020021,0.012386,-0.00038,0.004902,0.004252,-0.002496,0.004946,-0.00493,0.003374,-0.003832
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15045,0.125205,0.129988,0.057322, 0.064277,0.034776,0.018965,-0.00188,0.005307,0.003068,-0.002005,-0.004547,0.002248,-0.00669,-0.011973,0.021715,0.007823,-0.002738,-0.003041,-0.004274,-0.001,0.002121,0.000124,-0.00493,0.014098,-0.001916
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15046,0.127482,0.140143,0.058831, 0.020995,0.0437,0.002789,0.002585,0.005538,0.00940 8,0.02278,0,0.005695,-0.017393,-0.011423,0.005836,0.000133,0.000261,0.006714,-0.001508,-0.000375,0.004118,0.009521,-0.003944,0.006507,-0.000479
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15047,0.12862,0.140143,0.052043,0 .021318,0.045547,0.001116,-0.000235,-0.002769,0.005318,0.019135,-0.001137,0.001649,-0.001784,-0.003716,0.002036,0.005304,-0.001825,0.003674,0.004274,0.009755,-0.000125,0.003586,-0.005916,-0.003012,-0.00012
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15048,0.129758,0.136081,0.059962, 0.031654,0.044624,0.006693,0.001175,0.007846,0.006 545,0.019317,-0.009906,0.009741,-0.008771,-0.008808,0.002714,0.002121,-0.005085,0.004054,0.006788,0.001,0.002745,0.003957 ,-0.006409,0.001446,-0.001197
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15049,0.121791,0.131003,0.067127, 0.055879,0.041238,0.0251,0.003995,0.003692,0.01309 ,0.007654,-0.000487,-0.002398,-0.011447,-0.014313,0.016965,0.007823,-0.006258,-0.007728,0.00176,0.01113,0.00574,0.006801,-0.00037,0.001205,0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15950,0.130897,0.133034,0.072784, 0.062016,0.032929,0.016455,0.004935,0.007154,0.003 681,-0.004374,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.002676,-0.014313,0.016694,0.02148,0.011083,0.005828,-0.003771,0.005753,0.001123,-0.008285,0.000616,0.007832,0.001197
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15951,0.127482,0.152329,0.062979, 0.036822,0.049855,0.003347,0.003995,0.004615,0.009 204,0.01549,-0.008119,-0.001798,-0.008176,-0.005092,0.005429,0.006629,-0.001956,-0.000127,0.007039,0.006128,0.01123,0.006925,-0.008874,-0.007109,0.002515
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15952,0.132035,0.139128,0.046763, 0.021641,0.038776,0.006693,0.00235,0.008307,0.0104 31,0.024966,0.001137,0.006294,-0.012933,0.000826,-0.005565,-0.001061,0.002477,0.003167,0.006662,0.004127,-0.004617,0.003215,-0.00949,-0.00241,0
Czech_IA_LaTene:I15954,0.12862,0.148267,0.048649,0 .013889,0.035391,0.009482,0.007285,0.005538,0.0141 12,0.021322,0.001299,0.01169,-0.020515,-0.012111,0.005022,-0.013524,-0.018515,0.001394,0.001257,-0.007253,0.00574,0.014715,-0.008874,0.002289,-0.008143
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16268,0.12862,0.127957,0.071276,0 .06137,0.042777,0.023985,0.006345,-0.002769,0.011044,-0.010387,-0.01023,0.006294,-0.007582,0.000138,0.019137,0.008884,-0.006389,0.008615,0.00264,0.016258,0.011105,0.0096 45,-0.006409,0.013496,-0.002036
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16269,0.144555,0.118817,0.054305, 0.039729,0.043393,0.006693,0.00658,0.004384,0.0028 63,-0.002916,-0.016239,-0.003597,-0.000297,-0.00867,0.018051,0.01538,0.001043,0.00266,0.016969 ,-0.012006,-0.004617,0.00371,-0.006409,0.002048,0.000359
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16270,0.125205,0.121864,0.058831, 0.051357,0.019696,0.014502,0.002115,0.018692,-0.005113,-0.010934,0.004709,0.000899,-0.005054,-0.007432,0.005565,0.01538,0.005607,0.004307,0.0096 79,0.002626,0.012977,-0.001607,-0.004683,0.011086,-0.003832
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16271,0.129758,0.151314,0.058077, 0.021318,0.05201,0.006972,0.009165,-0.002308,0.018407,0.01877,-0.00747,0.010041,-0.01442,-0.002615,0.018051,-0.011535,-0.010691,0.004434,0.002765,0.003752,-0.002121,0.000371,-0.007025,-0.006627,0.003952
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16272,0.125205,0.133034,0.062225, 0.06137,0.040007,0.013387,-0.00188,0.000692,0.005727,-0.002551,-0.00747,0.002248,-0.000743,0.003441,0.013572,-0.000133,-0.001434,0.002407,0.003394,0.008629,-0.001123,0.005812,-0.001602,-0.003012,-0.003233
Czech_IA_LaTene:I16273,0.130897,0.135065,0.063733, 0.052003,0.038469,0.009203,0.00188,0.002077,0.0028 63,0.006014,-0.006983,0.009292,-0.008622,-0.026561,0.017236,0.008884,0.011213,0.001774,0.002 263,0.003877,0.009858,0.008656,0.00493,0.010363,0. 00455
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17139,0.121791,0.148267,0.036204, 0.000646,0.041546,-0.007809,-0.007285,-0.002769,0.008181,0.029522,0.001137,0.007343,-0.015461,0.000688,-0.008143,-0.014983,-0.014864,0.002407,0.006285,-0.006128,-0.005615,0.005441,-0.001479,0.001325,0.004311
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17143,0.12862,0.146236,0.061094,0 .01615,0.044316,0.014223,0.005405,0.004154,0.01288 5,0.021686,0.005196,0.009741,-0.022002,-0.013487,0.010179,-0.000265,-0.01017,-0.001774,0.000251,-0.001376,0.010606,0.01014,0,-0.002651,0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17145,0.12862,0.145221,0.053928,0 .005814,0.042162,0.001116,0.004465,-0.001154,0.016771,0.029704,-0.003248,0.008842,-0.012487,0.003303,0.005157,-0.004906,-0.01343,-0.003801,0.007416,-0.009379,0.00287,-0.001731,-0.006532,-0.003735,-0.000958
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17146,0.122929,0.150298,0.059208, 0.020995,0.047701,0.004462,0.000705,-0.006,0.025975,0.028064,-0.005684,-0.001948,-0.01219,-0.009634,0.006107,0.014717,0.014212,0.003801,0.004 902,0.006128,0.008735,0.005441,-0.008751,-0.001687,-0.002275
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17314,0.127482,0.148267,0.04978,0 .027132,0.036007,0.011156,0.001175,0.007154,0.0047 04,0.014761,-0.001137,0.002548,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.011808,0.010077,0.004955,-0.002407,-0.00729,0.005878,0.003369,0.01014,-0.002342,0.00482,-0.006466
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17315,0.12862,0.125926,0.046386,0 .039406,0.044008,-0.001116,0.003525,0.018461,0.013294,0.009659,0.001 299,0.009142,-0.016501,-0.020506,0.014251,0.003315,-0.011604,-0.002027,-0.006411,0.012506,0.003119,0.001607,-0.007888,-0.004217,-0.017364
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17316,0.119514,0.123895,0.055814, 0.059432,0.022773,0.013666,0.00188,0.014307,-0.015135,-0.021504,-0.00747,0.009292,-0.01219,-0.018579,0.021037,0.020817,0.001173,0.003041,-0.009302,0.008879,-0.000374,-0.001731,0.00986,0.002048,0.008263
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17317,0.129758,0.132019,0.061848, 0.052326,0.051086,0.011156,0.009635,0.006461,0.010 84,-0.007654,-0.013316,-3e-04,-0.016353,0.006881,0.00285,0.000928,-0.000652,-0.0019,0.00088,-0.001126,0.007861,-0.002349,-0.000616,0.013134,-0.007664
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17320,0.130897,0.137096,0.061094, 0.047804,0.051702,0.009482,0.00141,-0.004384,-0.007363,-0.00492,-0.009419,-0.010641,-0.007136,-0.007156,0.013165,0.000663,0.003781,-0.000633,-0.00905,0.022261,-0.000125,-0.000989,0.008134,-0.000482,0.008023
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17321,0.130897,0.140143,0.057322, 0.019057,0.046778,0.014502,-0.000705,0.001615,0.010022,0.023326,-0.009906,0.011839,-0.018434,-0.016377,0.010043,0.009944,-0.001173,0.002027,0.015587,0.001876,0.018343,-0.000495,-0.000863,0.00241,-0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17322,0.12862,0.129988,0.07203,0. 069445,0.037238,0.014502,-0.00141,0.004615,-0.000818,-0.01385,-0.002436,0.005995,-0.002527,-0.001101,0.010043,0.011403,-0.003129,0.002534,0.004902,0.012381,-0.000624,0.003339,0.002095,-0.007832,-0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17323,0.126344,0.138112,0.048271, 0.017442,0.05601,-0.008088,0.004465,-0.001154,0.020248,0.029887,-0.002761,0.002997,-0.016204,-0.007569,0.008822,-0.00769,-0.015907,0.004687,0.000503,-0.008754,-0.006988,0.011252,-0.013804,-0.021449,-0.005389
Czech_IA_LaTene:I17327,0.130897,0.12491,0.067505,0 .059432,0.034468,0.03012,0.00893,0.01823,-0.006749,-0.012028,-0.005034,0.002398,-0.005203,-0.002202,0.023751,-0.00358,-0.021383,0.003421,-0.000377,0.000875,0.003244,-0.000866,0.005916,0.014219,0.001916
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20504,0.119514,0.147252,0.040729, 0.027455,0.040315,0.016176,0,0.00923,-0.002863,0.00164,-0.003735,0.013338,-0.008325,-0.022295,0.008415,0.014054,0.007693,0.003294,0.004 777,-0.000375,-0.004367,-0.001855,-0.001479,0.005181,-0.011616
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20509,0.133173,0.11577,0.079195,0 .082042,0.057857,0.02008,0.00188,0.009,0.015748,0. 004556,-0.018675,3e-04,-0.002527,-0.002064,0.027551,0.001326,-0.007693,0.002154,-0.005782,0.005253,0.003494,-0.004575,-0.008874,0.00735,0.002754
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20513,0.12862,0.139128,0.06675,0. 013566,0.046162,-0.013387,0.014806,0.014076,0.014317,0.023508,-0.008119,0.019633,-0.000892,-0.020368,-0.0038,0.004641,-0.011474,0.005194,0.022626,-0.022261,-0.007612,0.001484,-0.005053,-0.003856,0.005029
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20519,0.122929,0.139128,0.052043, 0.037791,0.0437,0.010598,0.00329,0.003231,0.014726 ,0.018588,0.001461,0.001948,-0.020812,-0.007844,-0.008279,0.023071,0.010691,-0.004814,0.010684,-0.002126,-0.008859,-0.005317,0.006409,0.007471,-0.000718
Czech_IA_LaTene:I20522,0.120652,0.136081,0.054305, 0.025194,0.038469,0.003068,0.00376,0.003692,0.0128 85,0.025331,0.000974,0.016036,-0.015015,-0.018854,0.0019,0.010607,0.020079,0.004181,-0.004651,0.00988,0.010981,0.003462,-0.001356,0.002048,-0.002275
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11712,0.12862,0.147252,0.0561 91,0.031654,0.046778,0.006136,-0.00282,0.000692,0.00634,0.020775,-0.006658,0.004946,-0.009068,-0.01156,0.010179,0.003713,0.00013,0.002027,0.00729 ,-0.001501,-0.000749,0.00136,-0.002465,-0.00253,0.004431
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11713,0.12862,0.149283,0.0527 97,0.02907,0.047086,0.014781,-0.00235,-0.002077,0.013499,0.016037,0.00065,0.003447,-0.01219,-0.015276,0.004479,0.005436,-0.003912,0.007475,0.000628,-0.001376,0.001872,0.003833,-0.005053,-0.001566,-0.005149
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11715,0.122929,0.148267,0.061 471,0.02907,0.033852,0.010877,0.003055,0.011999,0. 011044,0.025149,-0.000162,0.002548,-0.012933,0,0.012215,-0.004906,-0.017602,0.000633,0.011439,-0.009254,0.004991,-0.000124,-0.003451,-0.000602,0.017244
Slovakia_LIA_LaTene:I11716,0.129758,0.141159,0.047 517,0.011951,0.04647,0.007251,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.00859,0.023326,-0.003897,0.010491,-0.013974,0.001789,-0.000271,-0.004508,0.007693,0.003674,0.005405,0.004377,-0.001248,0.008903,0.000739,-0.00241,0.001916
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:Jeb8.SG,0.119514,0.138112,0 .055814,0.029716,0.044931,-0.006414,-0.004465,0.002077,0.009817,0.01057,0.000162,0.0080 93,-0.022894,-0.009083,0.019272,0.007823,0.002217,-0.001014,-0.000754,0.003001,-0.005615,-0.003091,-0.011832,-0.00723,0.004431
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR2B6.SG,0.118376,0.142174 ,0.04714,0.004199,0.042469,0.000279,-0.011751,0.010615,0.019225,0.01385,0.011367,0.0113 9,-0.005203,-0.004679,0.013029,0.016176,0.030379,0.007855,0.005 656,0.003627,0.004742,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.001084,-0.010538
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR3-6.SG,0.133173,0.147252,0.050534,0.047804,0.028621, 0.019522,-0.00329,0.006692,0.011862,0.000182,-0.005196,0.017085,-0.023786,-0.014726,0.020901,-0.008221,-0.0236,0.007601,0.00176,0.005878,0.001248,0.002473 ,-0.005916,-0.007712,-0.000239
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR3-15.SG,0.113823,0.148267,0.064111,0.019057,0.041238 ,-0.006693,0.00564,-0.001615,0.013703,0.019135,-0.007307,-0.001199,-0.014569,-0.013487,0.024158,-0.004508,-0.02047,-0.008235,-0.006913,0.010255,-0.003119,-0.003339,-0.017748,0.001687,-0.002036
France_GrandEst_IA1.SG:NOR4.SG,0.132035,0.153345,0 .058077,0.001615,0.046778,-0.00753,-0.00282,0.014538,0.022907,0.038999,-0.008282,0.006145,-0.01888,-0.015001,-0.016694,0.009414,0.007953,-0.008615,0.012318,0.001376,0.007986,0.007666,-0.010106,0.00241,-0.002155
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19356,0.130897,0.127957,0.056 945,0.03876,0.046778,0.01004,0.007755,0.009461,-0.002454,0.004556,-0.005684,0.007194,-0.00773,-0.013349,0.012486,0.00305,-0.005867,-0.004307,0.001006,0.006503,-0.003244,-0.000618,0.003328,-0.001807,-0.005269
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19357,0.130897,0.137096,0.060 716,0.051034,0.050779,0.003904,0.004465,0.009,0.00 8795,0.009841,-0.004384,0.005695,-0.006392,-0.007707,0.015065,-0.006497,-0.020992,0.003674,0.000126,-0.004127,0.013102,0.014467,-0.010106,-0.00241,-0.001197
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19358,0.130897,0.13405,0.0426 15,0.031654,0.046778,0.019801,0.009635,-0.000231,0.010022,0.010387,0.014128,0.013638,-0.00892,-0.002202,0.0076,-0.012331,-0.021774,-0.001014,-0.001006,-0.005127,0.007237,0.001607,0.002342,0.003615,0.002 874
France_GrandEst_IA2:I19362,0.133173,0.137096,0.067 127,0.046835,0.03139,0.010598,0.004935,0.009,0.000 409,0.004738,-0.007957,0.005095,-0.012785,-0.006468,0.017644,-0.004906,-0.004172,0.006208,0.009302,0.005253,0.002246,0.007 79,0.00419,0.001807,-0.00491
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20815,0.124067,0.144205,0.055 06,0.034238,0.054779,0.010877,0.00799,0.006,0.0112 49,0.015672,-0.01023,0.016485,-0.005649,-0.00578,0.013708,-0.016839,-0.019427,0.006208,0.007416,-0.007629,0.004243,0.006801,-0.00949,0.001084,-0.008502
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20817,0.129758,0.137096,0.057 322,0.044251,0.043085,0.01757,0.00423,-0.006461,0.005727,0.003827,-0.007957,0.01109,-0.014569,-0.013212,0.022258,-0.006629,-0.020992,0.005954,-0.00088,0.01113,0.010606,0.00507,0.003821,0.002892 ,0.001796
France_GrandEst_IA2:I20827,0.124067,0.140143,0.056 945,0.023902,0.048624,0.009482,0.010575,0.001615,0 .008999,0.02442,-0.005684,0.002847,-0.023786,-0.007294,0.006107,0.013259,-0.006519,-0.000633,0.011564,0.00075,0.000624,-0.000247,0.003328,-0.006386,-0.001317
France_GrandEst_IA2:I21399,0.126344,0.144205,0.057 322,0.026163,0.055703,0.006972,0.006815,0.001385,0 .021475,0.023144,-0.006333,0.006594,-0.019772,-0.009496,0.011672,0.002917,0.003912,0.002027,-0.007165,-0.001501,0.006988,0.011005,-0.011955,-0.002289,-0.001916
France_GrandEst_IA2:I21402,0.126344,0.137096,0.064 111,0.036822,0.045547,0.000558,-0.00188,0.004384,0.015339,0.016219,-0.002111,0.007793,-0.01115,-0.010184,0.0095,0.005569,-0.00339,-0.005954,-0.002514,-0.001,0.003993,0.000124,0.007025,-0.002289,0.000599
France_GrandEst_IA2:I21931,0.120652,0.128972,0.058 077,0.028747,0.046162,0.018407,0.00047,-0.005307,0.005727,0.00893,0.001949,-0.004496,-0.014569,-0.012248,0.014522,-0.008618,-0.005607,0.004941,0.006788,-0.013381,0.004243,0.003586,-0.006286,-0.006989,0.002036
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:COL11.SG,0.124067,0.135065, 0.064488,0.063954,0.036007,0.019801,-0.009635,0.014769,0.006954,0.008018,-0.000487,0.005095,-0.015461,-0.003303,0.015608,-0.013524,-0.012517,-0.007855,0.005531,0.005002,0.008859,0.00779,0.0108 46,-0.004338,0.001197
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:COL153A.SG,0.133173,0.15740 7,0.047894,0.028747,0.035391,0.01004,0.00658,0.006 461,0.005318,0.012574,0.008769,-0.005245,0.000446,-0.002202,0.0038,0.005569,-0.011213,0.002914,0.016844,0.002126,-0.013351,0.006554,0.002095,-0.016629,0.002874
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:ERS86.SG,0.124067,0.161469, 0.040729,0.029716,0.038469,0.007251,-0.01034,0.001615,0.007158,0.009294,-0.002111,0.006894,-0.010704,-0.001651,0.008007,0.019491,-0.004824,0.008361,0.012821,-0.006628,0.003993,0.010263,-0.008381,-0.011206,-0.000239
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:ERS88.SG,0.129758,0.156392, 0.043369,0.005168,0.032621,0.000279,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.01309,0.024966,-0.00341,-0.003297,-0.02661,-0.01679,0.015336,-0.013922,-0.015255,-0.008108,-0.016466,-0.003502,-0.005366,0.000371,0.00037,0.003374,0.001796
France_GrandEst_IA2.SG:ERS1164.SG,0.124067,0.12491 ,0.05506,0.031977,0.032621,0.011156,0.00893,0.0108 46,0,0.016583,-0.005359,-0.01109,-0.010555,-0.010872,0.009365,0.004641,-0.002999,0.00076,0.003771,-0.004877,-0.007986,0.002473,0.0053,-0.012652,0.005628
France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG:ATT26.SG,0.113823,0.13 5065,0.044877,0.038437,0.042777,0.015618,-0.00799,0.011538,0.014317,0.021504,0.001299,0.0085 42,-0.02438,-0.017065,0.003393,0.009149,0.009779,0.005954,0.009 553,-0.013006,0.003244,0.009027,0.020582,-0.003133,0.007305
France_HautsDeFrance_IA2.SG:BFM265.SG,0.118376,0.1 48267,0.051666,0.037791,0.04924,0.016733,-0.003525,-0.001846,0.00859,0.015308,-0.005684,0.004646,-0.017988,-0.007844,0.018458,-0.003315,-0.013821,0.013556,0.006159,0.006628,-0.001123,0.003215,-0.00037,-0.001205,-0.000838

Thanks. Actually, Czech IA La Tene seem extremely Germanic admixed (although being early and in a La Tene material culture only environment afaik - we may unveil some unknown parts of (pre) history here).

Except for this I think that Feiichy's objections might be true or not, but are eventually irrelevant when it comes to simply want to catch what's pre Germanic and what not. The label "Celtic-like" is open enough for whatever truth. The question who is a "true Celt" may be interesting but can here remain unanswered.

[rothaer]

(...) The label "Celtic-like" is open enough for whatever truth. The question who is a "true Celt" may be interesting but can here remain unanswered.

I think that the groups Slovakia IA La Tene and France GrandEst IA1.SG are better proxies for pre Germanic population the more extreme AUT IA La Tene (here labelled Celtic-like). They are obviously more "northern" without being apparently Germanic admixed.

https://i.imgur.com/V0yN84E.jpg

If Feiichy is right with assigning notable real Greaco-Roman input to SW Germans, the exaggerated woggy AUT IA La Tene samples only could be good for modelling nevertheless as they could be a reasonable mean of that. For (Southern) Germans there would likely be the most correct thing to provide Graeco-Roman und one hand and "Celtic-like" based on Slovakia IA La Tene and France GrandEst IA1.SG. I will later deal with these things...

[Russki]

Thanks. Actually, Czech IA La Tene seem extremely Germanic admixed (although being early and in a La Tene material culture only environment afaik - we may unveil some unknown parts of (pre) history here).

Except for this I think that Feiichy's objections might be true or not, but are eventually irrelevant when it comes to simply want to catch what's pre Germanic and what not. The label "Celtic-like" is open enough for whatever truth. The question who is a "true Celt" may be interesting but can here remain unanswered.


Czech La Tene has a lot of Germanic-shifted outliers while Slovak La Tene has none (but the Slovak sample size is small).

But the common area where French, Czech and Slovak IA intersect is among modern Northern French (also where most samples are concentrated).

Also, the Southern French IA doesn't look SW European (like modern Southern French). It is half Northern French half Basque.

If the Celts were Northern French-like, it would make Germanic percentages of Southern Germans unrealistically low (much lower than what I think would be plausible). But it holds more water than the Celts being Spanish like. Out of 70 Czech, French and Slovak samples, only 5 are Spanish-like.

[Jana]

Czech La Tene has a lot of Germanic-shifted outliers while Slovak La Tene has none (but the Slovak sample size is small).

But the common area where French, Czech and Slovak IA intersect is among modern Northern French (also where most samples are concentrated).

Also, the Southern French IA doesn't look SW European (like modern Southern French). It is half Northern French half Basque.

If the Celts were Northern French-like, it would make Germanic percentages of Southern Germans unrealistically low (much lower than what I think would be plausible). But it holds more water than the Celts being Spanish like. Out of 70 Czech, French and Slovak samples, only 5 are Spanish-like.

What about pure Celts being central French like? I tend to think that would be most plausible.

Btw could you check Slovenian IA samples? I would but don't have PC nearby. Some are without doubt Illyrian but some other samples look actual Celtic and are pretty northern.

If some Slovenian IA samples are notably more northern than Austrian IA than perhaps these Austrian samples are outliers.

[rothaer]

What about pure Celts being central French like? I tend to think that would be most plausible.

Btw could you check Slovenian IA samples? I would but don't have PC nearby. Some are without doubt Illyrian but some other samples look actual Celtic and are pretty northern.

If some Slovenian IA samples are notably more northern than Austrian IA than perhaps these Austrian samples are outliers.

Yes. I displayed it here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?374999-Why-are-the-people-considered-quot-ethnic-Swiss-quot-only-those-of-Germanic-background&p=7762785&viewfull=1#post7762785

[Russki]

I think that the groups Slovakia IA La Tene and France GrandEst IA1.SG are better proxies for pre Germanic population the more extreme AUT IA La Tene (here labelled Celtic-like). They are obviously more "northern" without being apparently Germanic admixed.

https://i.imgur.com/V0yN84E.jpg

If Feiichy is right with assigning notable real Greaco-Roman input to SW Germans, the exaggerated woggy AUT IA La Tene samples only could be good for modelling nevertheless as they could be a reasonable mean of that. For (Southern) Germans there would likely be the most correct thing to provide Graeco-Roman und one hand and "Celtic-like" based on Slovakia IA La Tene and France GrandEst IA1.SG. I will later deal with these things...


SW Germans might have Imperial Roman input, and the Northern French and Walloons might have double or triple of the amount SW Germans have, as they even ended up speaking their languages.

France_GrandeEst_IA and France_HautsDeFrance_IA are very close to modern French from their respective areas, possibly due to Germanic and Imperial Roman inputs neutralizing each other.

[Jana]

SW Germans might have Imperial Roman input, and the Northern French and Walloons might have double or triple of the amount SW Germans have, as they even ended up speaking their languages.

France_GrandeEst_IA and France_HautsDeFrance_IA are very close to modern French from their respective areas, possibly due to Germanic and Imperial Roman inputs neutralizing each other.

That's almost certain, good observations. Similar like Etruscan/IA Latin samples are pseudo North Italian like, despite modern north Italians having significant East Med and Germanic that kinda cancel each other.

When you break them down on Davidski gold standard calc difference is easy to see though, and same might apply for Celts and modern French (maybe)

[Jana]

Slovenian Iron Age

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5689
0.02500582 French_Alsace
0.02536245 Swiss_German
0.02633135 French
0.02672617 French_Auvergne
0.02761486 French_Nord
0.02764625 French_Occitanie
0.02834078 BelgianC
0.02898061 Swiss_French
0.02996543 BelgianB
0.03137246 French_Pas-de-Calais

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5690
0.02077527 BelgianB
0.02264361 French_Nord
0.02288211 BelgianA
0.02292249 BelgianC
0.02293125 French_Alsace
0.02406516 German
0.02452988 French_Brittany
0.02519622 Swiss_German
0.02582181 French_Paris
0.02637850 French_Pas-de-Calais

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5691
0.01608098 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.01611088 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.01643121 Spanish_Penedes
0.01701787 French_Auvergne
0.01723071 Spanish_Lleida
0.01783789 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.01794853 Spanish_Girona
0.01828684 Spanish_Mallorca
0.01989235 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02020603 Spanish_Barcelones

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5692
0.02184324 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.02280419 Italian_Veneto
0.02402554 Italian_Bergamo
0.02509567 Spanish_Baleares
0.02587149 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02659188 Italian_Lombardy
0.02768810 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02827451 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02842310 Spanish_Girona
0.02871801 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5693
0.03214664 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03402814 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03452796 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.03589419 Spanish_Lleida
0.03596010 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03602597 French_Auvergne
0.03613758 Spanish_Burgos
0.03647542 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03674230 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03680566 French_Bigorre

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5698
0.03592135 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03593541 Spanish_Soria
0.03726805 Spanish_Castello
0.03825772 Spanish_Girona
0.03862188 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03913003 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03956845 Swiss_French
0.03959728 French_Auvergne
0.03977126 Spanish_Penedes
0.03984270 Spanish_Lleida

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I22937
0.04329416 French_Auvergne
0.04411880 French_Provence
0.04428362 Swiss_French
0.04441611 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04492992 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.04584807 Swiss_German
0.04594791 Italian_Liguria
0.04597214 Spanish_Penedes
0.04615514 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04617089 French_Occitanie

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I22938
0.02791213 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.02812699 French_Provence
0.02850666 French_Auvergne
0.02970609 Swiss_French
0.02980991 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03015575 Italian_Northeast
0.03036759 French_Occitanie
0.03051166 Spanish_Penedes
0.03054117 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03161607 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I22940
0.03148276 Italian_Bergamo
0.03182086 Italian_Lombardy
0.03307645 Spanish_Menorca
0.03370837 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.03409748 Italian_Liguria
0.03449555 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03811749 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03820167 Italian_Veneto
0.03852569 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03871413 Italian_Piedmont

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I23978
0.03445839 Spanish_Soria
0.03734177 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03862153 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03876347 Swiss_French
0.03975469 Spanish_Penedes
0.03975858 Spanish_Castello
0.03990955 Spanish_Girona
0.04019284 French_Auvergne
0.04182906 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04192283 French_Occitanie

[Jana]

Logic says Iberian and north Italian samples are Illyrian and French/Belgian like ones are Celts. Slovenia was settled by both Celts and Illyrians. Some samples may be mix of both. I guess this does show Austrian IA isn't suitable Celtic proxy, indeed.

[Catnip]

Agreed to all but maybe the assessment of "Lombards". Not sure what exactly makes a Northern Italian a "Lombard".

I was referring to the region and the language spoken prior standardization, not the ethnicity.

I think it's an easier way to explain to an outsider what a Swiss Italian is, because people usually have a certain image of Italy when someone mentiones it.
"Northern Italy" is still too broad umbrella in my opinion, as it is quite Latin culturally, while this is more of a gray area.


Funny that you link the French to the (Eastern Germanic) Burgundians. This will be true as for the Swiss area. I often wondered: Is the Röstigraben even perfectly the border between Alemanns and Burgundians or do you know any part of the Burgundian area that is German speaking today? Likely not as it would be a dialectal sensation, I guess.

Yes, it's considered to be the border.
I haven't heard of any surviving dialect, thought it would be cool to discover it.

It's funny that after they were Latinized, the Alemanns named them Welsche (Vlach, Roman), whereas they called themselves Romand, and believed to be distinct ethnicity from the others in France.
That's why the region is known as Romandy.
There are many parallels with Balkan Slavs.


As for the German (Alemannian) dialects I like this map:

https://i.imgur.com/TxTHK4o.jpg

Note that you have a minuscle dialectal Bavarian part in Switzerland (Samnaun) and that you have three main Alemannic dialectal groups in the small Vorarlberg (an Austrian state).

In Samnaun, Romansch was spoken in the past, but I had no idea they speak in Bavarian now. Interesting.

I'm aware that Vorarlberg also has an Alemannic dialect.
The entire eastern part of Switzerland used to have a lot more Romansh speakers, which is probably why there is a higher percentage of haplogroup E1b1b-M35 in western Austria (also Alsace and Baden), but is allegedly not found among Bavarians.

[rothaer]

It's funny that after they were Latinized, the Alemanns named them Welsche (Vlach, Roman), whereas they called themselves Romand, and believed to be distinct ethnicity from the others in France.
That's why the region is known as Romandy.


I think that exactly this demonstrates that they became really Latinised. Because to my perception all Welsch/Vlach terms are non-Latin, not to say Germanic. By Germanics first derived from the name of the Celtic Volcae, it became a proxy for the southern/western non-Germanic neighbours and thus eventually transferred to the Romance speakers as the new neighbours. (The respective thing happened to the Wend term in the east.) The only Celts still carrying their original walahisc exonym are the Welsh. :)

[retfala]

It's funny that after they were Latinized, the Alemanns named them Welsche (Vlach, Roman), whereas they called themselves Romand, and believed to be distinct ethnicity from the others in France.
That's why the region is known as Romandy.
There are many parallels with Balkan Slavs..

so if we are slavo-vlachs, you are germano-welsche (: legit.