Where do Jews come from?

[Annihilus]

I don't mean place but from a person, group and when did this happen?

[coolfrenchguy]

would you mean the hebrews people as an ethnic group ?

[Annihilus]

would you mean the hebrews people as an ethnic group ?

From the beginning, was there 1 Jew first or a bunch of them at the same time?

[InmostLight]

From the beginning, was there 1 Jew first or a bunch of them at the same time?

The 1 Jew budded asexually into multuple identical Jews

[Rædwald]

hebrosis

[Annihilus]

come on you goys, be serious

[catgeorge]

come on you goys, be serious

There are different types - one is the Levantine type and the other is the Turkic Khazar type.

The Levantine type is the only proper Jew.

[Annihilus]

There are different types - one is the Levantine type and the other is the Turkic Khazar type.

The Levantine type is the only proper Jew.

They formed 2 times? That can't be right.

[Demirkazık]

They branched off from Canaanites and Phoenicians, they are originally from South Levant.

[Annihilus]

They branched off from Canaanites and Phoenicians, they are originally from South Levant.

Who was the first Jew? or did they start as a group?

[Demirkazık]

Who was the first Jew? or did they start as a group?

They did start as a group If I know correctly, their ancestors the Israelites branched off from Canaanites -probably in Early Iron Age- and developed their own monoaltristic religion. In a biblical sense maybe Jacob and his 12 sons were the first Jews.

[Annihilus]

They did start as a group If I know correctly, their ancestors the Israelites branched of from Canaanites -probably in Early Iron Age- and developed their own monoaltristic religion. In a biblical sense maybe Jacob and his 12 sons were the first Jews.

ah ok so that is what this means

Abraham is regarded by Jews as the founder of the Hebrew people. The twelve tribes of Israel were direct descendants of Abraham.

[Annihilus]

https://i.imgur.com/vBj1Ysv.jpg

[Dick]

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus and jews are from Saturn.

[Demirkazık]

https://i.imgur.com/vBj1Ysv.jpg

Keep in mind that there were Jewish converts, some part of the Ashkenazim has clades that are not in favor of their origin.

[Smeagol]

The vast majority of Jews today are not descended primarily from Hebrews, but mostly from Roman era converts.

[Annihilus]

Keep in mind that there were Jewish converts, some part of the Ashkenazim has clades that are not in favor of their origin.

The common ancestor is older than Judaism right? When did this Abraham fella live?

Can Abraham be considered the first convert?

[Demirkazık]

The common ancestor is older than Judaism right? When did this Abraham fella live?

Are you under R-F1019, if so your subclade is linked with Turkic migrations, and Abraham lived in 2nd millennium BC.

[Annihilus]

Are you under R-F1019, if so your subclade is linked with Turkic migrations, and Abraham lived in 2nd millennium BC.

yes, under R-F1019

[Hexachordia]

Modern jewry is spurious at best, firstly, when people believe Jesus to be the Messiah, they should not recognize jews as the God choosen people since Jesus founded his religion by ending the Judaism.

John 6:32
Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

But the fact is that untill today most muslims and christians continue to feed on the bonus of the judaic heritage as the God choosen people, just like hindu brahmins being fed by the british colonists as the leading nationalists of India. A shameful reality of the western religions. From where modern jews come? Vatican, jews should have been all converted if not for Vatican`s endorsement of the evil jewry.

[Eurafricanid]

I mean, that's kind of a dumb question, like "Who was the first arab?" "Where did the arabs come from as a people?" like, c'mon! (btw, I said arabs, not muslims)

[Lobster]

They branched off from Canaanites and Phoenicians, they are originally from South Levant.

True

[Sheppey]

I don't mean place but from a person, group and when did this happen?


Internationalists: Traditionally, Jews were a people without a homeland—the State of Israel not existing until 1948. Ever since the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Jews were compelled to wander to neighboring lands and to make their way as best as possible.

They were essentially foreigners everywhere, even where they had settled for centuries. In a sense, they were the first true internationalists. And it worked to their benefit. As strangers, they were often exempt from the social and cultural norms of the host population. They were relatively free to exploit the native people. And for the reasons stated above, they had little reason not to. Once again, the relatively amoral, more-clever Jews were able to take advantage of a relatively innocent and naïve populace.

Yes, the natives often ‘willingly’ cooperate with the Jews and their globalist business activities; but without an understanding of the Jewish Question, they are in a poor position to assess the relative merits of doing so. When someone in need of money, for example, ‘willingly’ signs up for a complex interest-bearing loan with plenty of hazardous fine print, and then proceeds to lose whatever they posted for collateral, they are right to feel deceived. Or when locals ‘willingly’ shop at a Jewish business, to their own benefit, but thereby enrich the Jewish owners, and don’t realize the pernicious ends to which that wealth will be used. In the worst cases it may be positively harmful— rather like a heroin dealer passing out free samples, and then saying,

“Well, they willingly took it, didn’t they?” When local people are tricked, duped, or otherwise “enabled in their vices” (to paraphrase Wilhelm Marr), they cannot truly be blamed. But we can be sure that, when it does happen, Jews are there to profit handsomely.

Internationalism, or globalism, has thus historically been hugely to their benefit—both in a positive sense, through financial profits, and in a negative sense, in which they used the flow of people to diversify and dilute the strongly ethnic nation-states. Furthermore, international flow of capital allows one to exert control globally. It is more efficient, and much cleaner, than military coercion. Jews thus are notable proponents of global markets, global currency exchanges, ‘free’ trade, and generally anything that enlarges and binds multiple economies.


https://i.postimg.cc/QdK7ZP4C/Hitler.gif

[Sheppey]

I don't mean place but from a person, group and when did this happen?


But why were the Jews generally opposed to Germany? Today, on the basis of a huge number of facts, this is clear enough. They used the age-old tactics of the hyenas: When the fighters exhausted themselves, they moved in. Then the harvest! In war and revolutions, Judah simply attains the unattainable. Hundreds of thousands of lice-ridden Orientals become modern ‘Europeans’! Turbulent times bring about miracles. Before 1914, for example, in Bavaria, how long would a Galician Jew have lasted as prime minister?! Or in Russia, an anarchist out of the New York ghetto, Bronstein (Trotsky), as a dictator? ! A few wars and revolutions have sufficed to make the Jewish race the possessor of red gold and therewith masters of the world.--Adolf Hitler

[Targum]

The vast majority of Jews today are not descended primarily from Hebrews, but mostly from Roman era converts.

It is not nearly as mysterious as the (ridiculous) superstitious Jew-hating racists on here seem to imply:

https://www.amazon.com/Maternal-Genetic-Lineages-Ashkenazic-Jews/product-reviews/1644699842/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews

Dr. Brook also, in the Introduction, explains the paternal lineages, but that is not the main topic as the paternal lineages are mostly Israelite, and, thus, less complex, than the maternal lineages which brought in Italian(Roman), Greek, German, Slavic, Chinese etc women into the Ashkenazi genome. Highly recommend the book to anyone interested in Jewish ethnogenesis

[Mesoman]

It is not nearly as mysterious as the (ridiculous) superstitious Jew-hating racists on here seem to imply:

https://www.amazon.com/Maternal-Genetic-Lineages-Ashkenazic-Jews/product-reviews/1644699842/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews

Dr. Brook also, in the Introduction, explains the paternal lineages, but that is not the main topic as the paternal lineages are mostly Israelite, and, thus, less complex, than the maternal lineages which brought in Italian(Roman), Greek, German, Slavic, Chinese etc women into the Ashkenazi genome. Highly recommend the book to anyone interested in Jewish ethnogenesis

Is R-L23 a Canaanite, Israelite paternal lineage?

Jews are an ethno-religious grouping and at the end of the day, genetically speaking, as if it is news to anyone who knows a thing or two about anthro stuff, they are very diverse. You have Cochin Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jews etc and it is Judaism that unites these people more than genetics

[Lobster]

Is R-L23 a Canaanite, Israelite paternal lineage?

Jews are an ethno-religious grouping and at the end of the day, genetically speaking, as if it is news to anyone who knows a thing or two about anthro stuff, they are very diverse. You have Cochin Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jews etc and it is Judaism that unites these people more than genetics

Well, yeah, but still, it can't be said that Jews have nothing to do with each other. I did seen Ashkenazi Jews that can even pass as my family members. I also seen some of them that look alien to me (too European for me). Chinese and Ethiopian Jews are their own story though

[Sacrificed Ram]

Biblically jews (judes) come from Judah son of Jacob (Israel). The rest are the Lost Tribes of Israel.

[Loki]

I don't mean place but from a person, group and when did this happen?

Abraham was a Semite who had a son Isaac. Isaac had a son called Jacob. Jacob had been given another name by God, "Israel". Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons, who became the 12 tribes of Israel.

One of the 12 sons was Judah. His descendants, along with his brother Benjamin, lived together, separate from the other 10 tribes (they had separate kingdoms). The descendants of Judah and Benjamin were later called "Jews" -- especially after they were taken captive by the Babylonians. The Jews lived in Babylonian captivity for a while, where they developed a distinct "Jewish" culture, and that's also when they developed the Talmud. Hence Talmudic Judaism had taken in a lot of Babylonian mysticism, quite different from their Israel ancestors with the other 10 tribes.

That's, in short, the origin story.

[Annihilus]

Abraham was a Semite who had a son Isaac. Isaac had a son called Jacob. Jacob had been given another name by God, "Israel". Jacob (Israel) had 12 sons, who became the 12 tribes of Israel.

One of the 12 sons was Judah. His descendants, along with his brother Benjamin, lived together, separate from the other 10 tribes (they had separate kingdoms). The descendants of Judah and Benjamin were later called "Jews" -- especially after they were taken captive by the Babylonians. The Jews lived in Babylonian captivity for a while, where they developed a distinct "Jewish" culture, and that's also when they developed the Talmud. Hence Talmudic Judaism had taken in a lot of Babylonian mysticism, quite different from their Israel ancestors with the other 10 tribes.

That's, in short, the origin story.

But that is not the real story is it? For that th be true they would all have to have the same Y. The maternal thing with Jews is only recent, it was paternal before.

[Andullero]

I don't mean place but from a person, group and when did this happen?

If the Bible and Talmud are to be believed, from Ibrahim, a Mesopotamian from Ur.

[Token]

I mean, that's kind of a dumb question, like "Who was the first arab?" "Where did the arabs come from as a people?" like, c'mon! (btw, I said arabs, not muslims)

It is not a dumb question, how ethnic groups are formed is a complex question which still spawns heated debates among cultural anthropologists, especially when it pertains to the Jews.

[Loki]

But that is not the real story is it? For that th be true they would all have to have the same Y. The maternal thing with Jews is only recent, it was paternal before.

Of course it's the real story. But the story doesn't end there! I just told you the beginning up to about 2000 years ago..

[Annihilus]

Of course it's the real story. But the story doesn't end there! I just told you the beginning up to about 2000 years ago..

Then explain this:

https://i.imgur.com/vBj1Ysv.jpg

[Loki]

Then explain this:

https://i.imgur.com/vBj1Ysv.jpg

You have a Jewish ancestor I guess? But no...if 2000BC, then it is before the existence of the Jewish people as we know them. Then it means probably that you share an early Semitic/Levantine ancestor. Quite interesting. :)

[Annihilus]

You have a Jewish ancestor I guess? But no...if 2000BC, then it is before the existence of the Jewish people as we know them. Then it means probably that you share an early Semitic/Levantine ancestor. Quite interesting. :)

Very unlikely the ancestor is Semitic/Levantine

same ancestor:

https://i.imgur.com/2BZLr0O.jpg

[Blondie]

I have heard from a hungarian rabbi that majority of european jews are just converted europeans.

[Mortimer]

Who was the first Jew? or did they start as a group?

I think the first Jew was Abraham no?

[Annihilus]

I'm going to get a lot of shit for this but the Khazars are a real possibily.

https://i.imgur.com/tqqThFM.jpg

[Annihilus]

from that ancestor

https://i.imgur.com/K0VALdA.jpg

[Lobster]

I think the first Jew was Abraham no?

Yeah, you are right, bro. He's also father of Isaac, grandfather of Jacob, and great-grandfater of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin. Abraham is also of Mesopotamian ancestry, so it is possible that Jews are not really native Levantines (like Canaanites or Phoenicians) but of Mesopotamian ancestry.

[Demirkazık]

You have a Jewish ancestor I guess? But no...if 2000BC, then it is before the existence of the Jewish people as we know them. Then it means probably that you share an early Semitic/Levantine ancestor. Quite interesting. :)

His Y-DNA is connected with Turkic migrations to the West, it's much more likely that the Horrowitz family were one of the Khazar converts.

[Mesoman]

Well, yeah, but still, it can't be said that Jews have nothing to do with each other. I did seen Ashkenazi Jews that can even pass as my family members. I also seen some of them that look alien to me (too European for me). Chinese and Ethiopian Jews are their own story though

Besides Judaism, there is not a whole lot of similarity between the groups, because majority of these groups have more to do with their non-Jewish neighbors than the rest of the jewish groups. Of course I am genetically closer to and more similar to other Northern West Asian people like Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Eastern Black Sea Turks, Pontians, etc. but I was raised under the belief that regardless of everything, every jewish group is close to me genetically and culturally as well, even compared to the ethnicities I mentioned above.

There will be individuals from certain groups who will pass for the others but that won't always be the case. I don't know a whole lot about Chinese Jews but Ethiopian Jews are mixed race which is why you think that they are their own story

[Abti]

I always found the purposed origin of Jews interesting and the question being still quite open at the moment. I especially find “middle eastern” Jews interesting that who have similarities of that of the Iranian and Greco-Armenian race. They have not even looked like material Levantine peoples like Lebanese whom are descend from Phenonecians. Which confirms the fact that Jews themselves are recent immigrants to the Levant as a whole. Don’t listen to o the average Jew about their origins because you’re going to get a religiously biased answer or a non-answer at best. Not even christians themselves who play second fiddle to Zionism.

[Abti]

They branched off from Canaanites and Phoenicians, they are originally from South Levant.

Completely false. They branched off from the first Sumerian cultures which means they broke off from Assyrians, Chaldeans and of that persuasion. Which makes more sense than the «popular idea» of a Levantine people, since the most "Middle Eastern" of Jews cluster around this Area. To lay down the factoids, Iranian and Iraqi Jews have been in their Area since the Babylonian exile before any Roman incursion therefore mixture with the Hasmonean Jews (who then mixed with the Canaanites at the time) of that Era.

[Abti]

Is R-L23 a Canaanite, Israelite paternal lineage?

Jews are an ethno-religious grouping and at the end of the day, genetically speaking, as if it is news to anyone who knows a thing or two about anthro stuff, they are very diverse. You have Cochin Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jews etc and it is Judaism that unites these people more than genetics

Not Canaanite definitely Israelite.

[Demirkazık]

Completely false. They branched off from the first Sumerian cultures which means they broke off from Assyrians, Chaldeans and of that persuasion. Which makes more sense than the popular of a Levantine people, since the most "Middle Eastern" of Jews cluster around this Area. To lay down the factoids, Iranian and Iraqi Jews have been in their Area since the Babylonian exile before any Roman incursion therefore mixture with the Hasmonean Jews (who then mixed with the Canaanites at the time) of that Era.

Why is the biblical Hebrew/Hebrew is a branch of Canaanite language or why Jews aren't speaking a dialect of Aramaic then ?

[Abti]

Besides Judaism, there is not a whole lot of similarity between the groups, because majority of these groups have more to do with their non-Jewish neighbors than the rest of the jewish groups. Of course I am genetically closer to and more similar to other Northern West Asian people like Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Eastern Black Sea Turks, Pontians, etc. but I was raised under the belief that regardless of everything, every jewish group is close to me genetically and culturally as well, even compared to the ethnicities I mentioned above.

There will be individuals from certain groups who will pass for the others but that won't always be the case. I don't know a whole lot about Chinese Jews but Ethiopian Jews are mixed race which is why you think that they are their own story

All Jews From Moroccan to Kaifeng (x Ethiopian Jews, Abayudaya) have a component that ties them together.

[Abti]

Why is the biblical Hebrew/Hebrew is a branch of Canaanite language or why Jews aren't spoking a dialect of Aramaic then ?

Why aren’t Ashkenazi Jews speaking Zerphatic instead of Yiddish? Same idea.

[Mesoman]

All Jews From Moroccan to Kaifeng (x Ethiopian Jews, Abayudaya) have a component that ties them together.

That's Natufian.. and it is not just the Jews that are tied with that component so it does not have any significant meaning.

[Abti]

That's Natufian.. and it is not just the Jews that are tied with that component so it does not have any significant meaning.

Didn’t say it was Natufian. So the component is a Mesopotamian-ish cluster that binds them together hence the ever so prevailing Sumerian Culture idea, much more of a fact than anything else. To put into perspective, the Torah authors emphasize the Mesopotamian origins of the Israelites.

[Abti]

duplicateS

[Demirkazık]

Why aren’t Ashkenazi Jews speaking Zerphatic instead of Yiddish? Same idea.

Same idea ? Read what I wrote again. The term Zarphatic comes from the Hebrew name for France, Tzarfat (צרפת), which was originally used in the Hebrew Bible as a name for the city of Sarepta, in Phoenicia. Zarphatic also influenced the development of Yiddish.

The Jews are the descendants of Canaanites.

[Abti]

duplicate.

[Abti]

Same idea ? Read what I wrote again. The term Zarphatic comes from the Hebrew name for France, Tzarfat (צרפת), which was originally used in the Hebrew Bible as a name for the city of Sarepta, in Phoenicia. Zarphatic also influenced the development of Yiddish.

The Jews are the descendants of Canaanites.
Yes, Same idea. Put two and two together.

Nothing with what you replied with goes against what I’ve stated. Besides the last line, only partially from converts if you mean indigenous. Canaanite is a umbrella term for anyone who has lived the region of Canaan since the Israelites have taken over Canaan, they can’t be considered indigenous Canaanites. The Philistines who’re greek are also considered Canaanites.

[Mesoman]

Didn’t say it was Natufian. So the component is a Mesopotamian-ish cluster that binds them together hence the ever so prevailing Sumerian Culture idea, much more of a fact than anything else. To put into perspective, the Torah authors emphasize the Mesopotamian origins of the Israelites.

Israelites were canaanite migrants to the hills of Judea and they did not have any Mesopotamian origins. It's all fiction. And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster

[Eurafricanid]

It is not a dumb question, how ethnic groups are formed is a complex question which still spawns heated debates among cultural anthropologists, especially when it pertains to the Jews.

When I wrote the question, I was thinking (that the OP was talking) about modern (European) jews (in a pretencious-ish way), especifically. it is indeed my bad and I do agree with you! :thumb001:

[Abti]

Israelites were canaanite migrants to the hills of Judea and they did not have any Mesopotamian origins. It's all fiction. And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster

The original YHWH worshippers were Shasu, a Canaanite people. Doesn’t mean they were the Jews of today. Jews today are a different breed. They could have collective coalesced into becoming the Samaritans, an Israelite but non-Jewish people. One thing to keep in mind that Jews besides Samaritans have a degree of Steppe, even Samaritans having a small degree of steppe.

@Mesoman « And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster »

Then what is it then?? Lolz. im guessing might say none from your previous exchange.

[Abti]

Israelites were canaanite migrants to the hills of Judea and they did not have any Mesopotamian origins. It's all fiction. And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster

The original YHWH worshippers were Shasu, a Canaanite people. Doesn’t mean they were the Jews of today. Jews today are a different breed. They could have collective coalesced into becoming the Samaritans, an Israelite but non-Jewish people. One thing to keep in mind that Jews besides Samaritans have a degree of Steppe, even Samaritans having a small degree of steppe.

@Mesoman « And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster »

Then what is it then?? Lolz. im guessing might say none from your previous exchange.

[Mesoman]

The original YHWH worshippers were Shasu, a Canaanite people. Doesn’t mean they were the Jews of today. Jews today are a different breed. They could have collective coalesced into becoming the Samaritans, an Israelite but non-Jewish people. One thing to keep in mind that Jews besides Samaritans have a degree of Steppe, even Samaritans having a small degree of steppe.

@Mesoman « And this ghost component you are referring to does not fall in the Mesopotamian cluster »

Then what is it then?? Lolz. im guessing might say none from your previous exchange.

Bruh.. I think I know who you are. I never said that they were the same people as modern day jews, as if modern day jews can be grouped together as an ethnic group, genetically speaking. I said that Israelites were canaanite migrants to Judean Hills and that's the way it is. The ancestors of Samaritans were coastal canaanites until they migrated further inland, and they settled near mount Gerizim which is their holy place. As you said Samaritans have very little steppe, if any and mizrahis generally don't have much of steppe as well.

That component did not fall in the mesopotamian cluster but rather in some Bronze Age Israeli/Jordanian cluster. And I am not fully aware of the component that we are talking about here. Are you talking about Levant_Ashkelon_LBA? or Megiddo?

[Abti]

Bruh.. I think I know who you are. I never said that they were the same people as modern day jews, as if modern day jews can be grouped together as an ethnic group, genetically speaking. I said that Israelites were canaanite migrants to Judean Hills and that's the way it is. The ancestors of Samaritans were coastal canaanites until they migrated further inland, and they settled near mount Gerizim which is their holy place. As you said Samaritans have very little steppe, if any and mizrahis generally don't have much of steppe as well.

That component did not fall in the mesopotamian cluster but rather in some Bronze Age Israeli/Jordanian cluster. And I am not fully aware of the component that we are talking about here. Are you talking about Levant_Ashkelon_LBA? or Megiddo?

I think I know who you are as well… no I’m not talking about Ashkelon & Megiddo. You can’t decipher which part of it is Canaanite or «Israelite» if the idea is that they’re the same, most of the time when Jews encounter populations who converted the input would go from 25-10%. The Hasmonean dynasty started conversions on a massive scale and that is besides individual choice. That is what happened to the Celts, Avars, Berbers, Egyptians, Germans and the Indigenous Canaanites.

I’m talking Iran-Hajji-Firuz & AnatoliaMBA, which has gone unexplained. I’m not fond of utilizing G25 for peoples ethnic origins but back to the basics using formal stats, qpAdm, and history. And also what is cope about them not clustering in the Mesopotamian area? Lol, you agreed to it before. This goes for Iranian & Iraqi jews, Georgian Jews descend from Persian Jews, you would know.

[Abti]

The vast majority of Jews today are not descended primarily from Hebrews, but mostly from Roman era converts.

Yes, there are several examples who’ve converted; Indigenous Canaanites, Celts, Hunnic Avars, Egypto-Berber peoples, Germans, relatively recently.. Slavs based on academic studies. The Original Jews might have been like something we might have never seen before. They may have been European-like or "Euro-adjacent" with plenty of R1-M173.

[Mesoman]

I think I know who you are as well… no I’m not talking about Ashkelon & Megiddo. You can’t decipher which part of it is Canaanite or «Israelite» if the idea is that they’re the same, most of the time when Jews encounter populations who converted the input would go from 25-10%. The Hasmonean dynasty started conversions on a massive scale and that is besides individual choice. That is what happened to the Celts, Avars, Berbers, Egyptians, Germans and the Indigenous Canaanites.

I’m talking Iran-Hajji-Firuz & AnatoliaMBA, which has gone unexplained. I’m not fond of utilizing G25 for peoples ethnic origins but back to the basics using formal stats, qpAdm, and history. And also what is cope about them not clustering in the Mesopotamian area? Lol, you agreed to it before. This goes for Iranian & Iraqi jews, Georgian Jews descend from Persian Jews, you would know.

The thing is that Megiddo and Ashkelon were very similar anyway. And I also was not trying to decipher whether it was canaanite or israelite, etc.


most of the time when Jews encounter populations who converted the input would go from 25-10%.

what did you mean by this part


I’m talking Iran-Hajji-Firuz & AnatoliaMBA, which has gone unexplained.

I am too lazy to model MBA Anatolian and Hajji Firuz samples right now lol, but you can rest assured that MBA Anatolians did not cluster in Mesopotamia.


I’m not fond of utilizing G25 for peoples ethnic origins but back to the basics using formal stats, qpAdm, and history.

History is not the greatest measure to understanding the genetics of people but qpAdm beats G25 of course since the former is a pro tool


And also what is cope about them not clustering in the Mesopotamian area? Lol, you agreed to it before. This goes for Iranian & Iraqi jews, Georgian Jews descend from Persian Jews, you would know.


Not a cope. We were talking about the ghost population from Bronze Age or Early Iron Age which supposedly clustered in Mesopotamia. I never denied that Iraqi, Iranian and Kurdish Jews clustered in Mesopotamia. Btw, Iraqi Jews are not descended from Persian Jews and most Georgian Jews are not descended from persian Jews either. You probably meant Mountain Jews.

[Lobster]

The thing is that Megiddo and Ashkelon were very similar anyway. And I also was not trying to decipher whether it was canaanite or israelite, etc.



what did you mean by this part



I am too lazy to model MBA Anatolian and Hajji Firuz samples right now lol, but you can rest assured that MBA Anatolians did not cluster in Mesopotamia.



History is not the greatest measure to understanding the genetics of people but qpAdm beats G25 of course since the former is a pro tool



Not a cope. We were talking about the ghost population from Bronze Age or Early Iron Age which supposedly clustered in Mesopotamia. I never denied that Iraqi, Iranian and Kurdish Jews clustered in Mesopotamia. Btw, Iraqi Jews are not descended from Persian Jews and most Georgian Jews are not descended from persian Jews either. You probably meant Mountain Jews.

So, I am closer to Mesopotamians and western Iranians than I am to Levantine people? That's kind of sad to me because I like Syria so much, and even used to tell few times that I am Syrian when Canadians ask me about my ancestry.

[Abti]

@Mesoman

I mean that converted populations would usually tribute 1/4 or 1/10 of their ancestry to the Jewish population and the implications for what would it mean for their Levantine ancestry.

And, yes I meant Mountain Jews.

[Mesoman]

So, I am closer to Mesopotamians and western Iranians than I am to Levantine people? That's kind of sad to me because I like Syria so much, and even used to tell few times that I am Syrian when Canadians ask me about my ancestry.

you will most likely plot closer to Levantines than West Iranians but I am almost 100% certain that you will plot closer to Mesopotamians than to Levantines if you are a regular kurdish Jew, Persian Jew or a mix of both.

[Mesoman]

@Mesoman

I mean that converted populations would usually tribute 1/4 or 1/10 of their ancestry to the Jewish population and the implications for what would it mean for their Levantine ancestry.



At that point, you just have to determine somehow how many populations converted to Judaism to have contributed to their genomes because it is crystal clear that Jewish populations are more than 1/4 non-Samaritan like autosomal DNA wise

[Mesoman]

and how can you be sure of that number, like where does it come from

[Lobster]

you will most likely plot closer to Levantines than West Iranians but I am almost 100% certain that you will plot closer to Mesopotamians than to Levantines if you are a regular kurdish Jew, Persian Jew or a mix of both.

That certainly makes sense, keeping in mind that my father's family is originally from the Mosul area (although his grandparents were engaged in trade in Damascus, and his father was also born there), while my mother's parents are originally from Hamadan in western Iran. Thank you!

[Abti]

and how can you be sure of that number, like where does it come from

It’s really in the air and easy to grab. There are legit countless studies.

I recommend viewing the recent genomic study on Erfurt et al Waldeman. As a first.

[Voskos]

Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor, son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Selah, son of Arpachsad (or Cainan), son of Shem, son of Noah.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Yeah, you are right, bro. He's also father of Isaac, grandfather of Jacob, and great-grandfater of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin. Abraham is also of Mesopotamian ancestry, so it is possible that Jews are not really native Levantines (like Canaanites or Phoenicians) but of Mesopotamian ancestry.

Canaanites (Bronze Age Levant) themselves are a mix of "native" Natufian/ANF and "foreigner" Iran_Chalcolithic. The history of Abraham, a migrant from East, is valid for all canaanites.

Just have on mind catholic christians tend to have an allegorical read of Bible, not literality, mainly the Old Testament. Protestant christians that tend to read the Bible in full literality.

Then firstly you need to define if you have a religious or sciential doubt, not ever you have the same answer for both.

[Loki]

His Y-DNA is connected with Turkic migrations to the West, it's much more likely that the Horrowitz family were one of the Khazar converts.

I see, yes that makes sense. Completely plausible.

[Loki]

Canaanites (Bronze Age Levant) themselves are a mix of "native" Natufian/ANF and "foreigner" Iran_Chalcolithic. The history of Abraham, a migrant from East, is valid for all canaanites.

Just have on mind catholic christians tend to have an allegorical read of Bible, not literality, mainly the Old Testament. Protestant christians that tend to read the Bible in full literality.

Then firstly you need to define if you have a religious or sciential doubt, not ever you have the same answer for both.

True science and religion must ultimately come to the same answer, origin. If not, at least one of the two is wrong.

[Sacrificed Ram]

True science and religion must ultimately come to the same answer, origin. If not, at least one of the two is wrong.

Why? Is there a third option? Like both wrong?

[Loki]

Why? Is there a third option? Like both wrong?

I was thinking both right.

[Sacrificed Ram]

I was thinking both right.

Even if religous texts are just tales, they must have a real source that inspirated them. Such is possible.

[Abti]

Even if religous texts are just tales, they must have a real source that inspirated them. Such is possible.

This reminds me of the phrase "Literally false, but metaphorically true" by something something Weinstein. There is a video on it on YouTube. But it in this is context it may have been the other way "metaphorically false, but literally true."

In terms of that Idea, Shem "the patriarch” cannot be a real person rather could be a place in time. In relation to the Levant— Sham is the verbiage used for the Area in Arabic, same as the other names, the biblical Mizriam— in Egypt "Misr"- in Arabic. Putting two and two together is contradictory, the patriarchs were literally false but metaphorically true as to what "descending" may have mean’t.

To say "descend" from may have meant something different in scripture tainted by translation to mean something else. Another example being Nimrod -Al Kish. "Al Kish" is of Kish. In the Bible Nimrod is dubbed a "Kushite" but we all know Kish the bible "Kush" is a location in Iraq, thus cannot be a person.

[Abti]

There are different types - one is the Levantine type and the other is the Turkic Khazar type.

The Levantine type is the only proper Jew.

There is no proper "Levantine Jew". Unless you mean Samartians, they’re Non-Jewish Israelites of Levantine stock. The most middle eastern of Jews don’t sit in the Levant. Rings a bell to the patriarch Abraham who came from Mesopotamia.

[Florstadt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QxT-w3WMo&ab_channel=BoneyMVEVO

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

When the wicked
Carried us away in captivity
Requiering of us a song
Now how shall we sing the lord's song in a strange land

Let the words of our mouth and the meditations of our heart
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

Let the words of our mouth and the meditation of our hearts
be acceptable in thy sight here tonight

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down
ye-eah we wept, when we remembered Zion.

By the rivers of Babylon (dark tears of Babylon)
there we sat down (You got to sing a song)
ye-eah we wept, (Sing a song of love)
when we remember Zion. (Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah)

By the rivers of Babylon (Rough bits of Babylon)
there we sat down (You hear the people cry)
ye-eah we wept, (They need their God)
when we remember Zion. (Ooh, have the power)

[Scarface F]

There is no proper "Levantine Jew". Unless you mean Samartians, they’re Non-Jewish Israelites of Levantine stock. The most middle eastern of Jews don’t sit in the Levant. Rings a bell to the patriarch Abraham who came from Mesopotamia.

How close are Mizrahi Jews to Samaritans genetically?

[PlattitüdenPaule]

https://i.ibb.co/K27dtqk/F-O8m-BHa4-AAE8-RP.jpg (https://ibb.co/X7p1nsg)

[lei.talk]

https://youtu.be/a952gCabSCQ?si=hITrgxJL5tVrYcNy

"The Running of the Jew" is an ancient Kazakh tradition much like the less entertaining Spanish version (A Cheap copy which uses Bulls due to the glorious Jew Purge) in which Jews would be captured, starved and robbed of most of their precious Jew Gold (Which is usually stolen from innocent Kazakh people to begin with) and then released down certain streets for the public to chase, taunt, injure and make Sexy Time with. Though it is thought that the Running has religious roots, these have long since been forgotten in the name of just having a good time and Kicking some Jews about. The Running of the Jew is a Kazakh tradition considered a great family day out, and the Kazakh Tourist Season opens one day before this occasion, shortly after the closing of Deer Season. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat)

[Abti]

How close are Mizrahi Jews to Samaritans genetically?

As far as a Mandaean is to a Lebanese Christian.

[Scarface F]

As far as a Mandaean is to a Lebanese Christian.

Could you elaborate? I am not that familiar with Levantine genetics.

[Zeno]

Probably branched-out Canaanites, who as they branched from the latter during the First Iron Age, created Yahwism which then involved into Judaism. The Babylonian Captivity, for a matter of fact, had the most significant impact much later on, however, in terms of shaping their ethnos and identity.

[Abti]

Could you elaborate? I am not that familiar with Levantine genetics.

Samaritans unlike Mizrahi Jews are very close to Indigenous Canaanites in ancestry.

https://i.imgur.com/3hRks5T.jpg

Mizrahi Jews are very close to Mesopotamian peoples like Mandaeans & Assyrians.

https://i.imgur.com/bhuoL1D.jpg

[Loki]

Probably branched-out Canaanites, who as they branched from the latter during the First Iron Age, created Yahwism which then involved into Judaism. The Babylonian Captivity, for a matter of fact, had the most significant impact much later on, however, in terms of shaping their ethnos and identity.

Probably? You can know definitely for sure if you read the Bible. It's got the whole history and ethnogenesis of Israel there, and it's 100% supported by archaeology.

[Florstadt]

Probably? You can know definitely for sure if you read the Bible. It's got the whole history and ethnogenesis of Israel there, and it's 100% supported by archaeology.

Joshua 24:

1 Then Joshua assembled all the tribes of Israel at Shechem. He summoned the elders, leaders, judges and officials of Israel, and they presented themselves before God.

2 Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods. 3 But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac, 4 and to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. I assigned the hill country of Seir to Esau, but Jacob and his family went down to Egypt.

https://i.imgur.com/vUAAkjJ.png

[Anglo-Celtic]

If the Bible and Talmud are to be believed, from Ibrahim, a Mesopotamian from Ur.

He stole my thunder. Later, they went to Europe and mixed with the White devils who were made in a lab by the evil Black mad doctor, Yakub.

[Florstadt]

There is no proper "Levantine Jew". Unless you mean Samartians, they’re Non-Jewish Israelites of Levantine stock. The most middle eastern of Jews don’t sit in the Levant. Rings a bell to the patriarch Abraham who came from Mesopotamia.

The terms "Mesopotamia" and "Canaan" emerged primarily through the lens of Greek and Roman geographers and historians. Their classifications often reflected political realities and interactions with these regions rather than distinct ethnic or cultural boundaries. Additionally, the term "Canaan" gradually fell out of use due to later political changes and the emergence of distinct groups like Israelites and Phoenicians.

Over time, distinct cultural and political entities emerged within the broader Canaanite region. These included the Phoenicians along the coast, the Israelites further inland, and various other city-states like Byblos and Megiddo.

With the rise of these specific identities, the term "Canaan" gradually ceased to be used for individual groups. Phoenicians, Israelites, and others developed their own distinct names and cultural markers.

Calling the Eastern Mediterranean "Levant" reeks of colonial-era maps drawn from a European gaze. It ignores the region's rich tapestry of local names and overlooks the fertile land that truly shaped its diverse populations from ancient times. Let's ditch the eurocentrism and focus on what truly rooted communities there: The earth itself. The fertile crescent.

[Zeno]

Probably? You can know definitely for sure if you read the Bible. It's got the whole history and ethnogenesis of Israel there, and it's 100% supported by archaeology.

I haven't read the Old Testament in its entirety to be precisely certain.

[Loki]

I haven't read the Old Testament in its entirety to be precisely certain.

You should, it's the best :) And when you realise that -- whilst everything in there is true and historical -- it also acts as a larger and high level metaphor for life in general. Incredible wisdom.

[Florstadt]

Which book of the Bible is your favorite, Loki?

[Loki]

Which book of the Bible is your favorite, Loki?

That's a difficult question. I like many. But these stand out for me:

Psalms
Gospel of John
First Epistle of John
Gospel of Matthew
Revelation

[Florstadt]

That's a difficult question. I like many. But these stand out for me:

Psalms
Gospel of John
First Epistle of John
Gospel of Matthew
Revelation

I also like Psalms. Which do you like the most?