View Full Version : BS about prosperity of independent Latvia before reintegration with Russia exposed
While Latvia was unable to restore the output of its industrial production in 1913 by 1940, the USSR has increased the output of its industrial production of 1913 by that time in 7.7 times.
http://riga-lv.com/blog/2004/08/23/latvijskaya-promyshlennost-istoriya-i-perspektivy/
Brynhild
04-16-2009, 09:18 PM
Hors, I normally mind my own business in this regard, but why do you keep harping on about Latvians? I'm really beginning to think that you have an inferiority complex about being Russian.
Racial differences I can well understand, but this has been going on for way too long! Not surprising, then, that you ask for others on this forum to lay the slipper into you. :rolleyes2:
Birka
04-16-2009, 10:10 PM
troll
Sigurd
04-16-2009, 10:16 PM
Well, it took a while to click, but OF COURSE: Hors is the very same old troll which us old-timers still recall as Ross. A brief double-check of his old Skadi profile heralds this without much doubt.
In three years since he was booted from Skadi, he has not changed one lot: Greater-Russian imperialism from an inferiority complex, a notorious need to prove that Russians are at large Nordish, and an ethnicity randomly chosen to take his anger out on.
Last time he was seen, his final deed on Skadi was to continuously slag Austrians off. Looks like over time, he has moved on to Latvians. What a bold move, pal, as you now see this Austrian here defend the point of your favourite Latvian. :tongue
Hors, I normally mind my own business in this regard, but why do you keep harping on about Latvians?
Seriously.
Imagine, that cockroaches in your kitchen have seized your trash bin, declared sovereignty, were recognized as independent by cockroaches from other houses and entered into alliance with them and started whining about centuries of cockroachcide, while living off the crumbles from your table...
It could be pretty annoying.
Sigurd
04-17-2009, 08:29 AM
Well, dear Hors, what makes Latvians all the worse than Estonians or Lithuanians to you then? Shouldn't you technically be at first concerned about the removal of the Red Soldier from Tallinn before you bash Latvia? :wink
Rational assessment of the situation from the Russian side of the argument? Not even that. Sorry to disappoint you, your jumping on the Latvians, but neither the Lithuanians nor the Estonians is entirely arbitrary.
Have your opinion all you will, but if you're here to provoke, flame and troll, then at least do it a bit more subtly. :rolleyes2:
Estonians are no better than Latvians. And now, as we've got a whiner bullshitting about Russians from Estonia as well, The Apricity Forum members wil learn a lot about Estonia and Estonians too.
Lithuanians themselves are of little concern for me, unlike SS-spirited Latvians and Estonians they have given citizenship to resident Russians and don't discriminate them much, and even thou they're rabidly Russophobic what they do doesn't bother me much.
Sigurd
04-17-2009, 09:06 AM
and even thou they're rabidly Russophobic what they do doesn't bother me much.
Perhaps they are starting to see that allowing for a bunch of Russians in their country with full citizenship rights is not as advantageous as they thought? At least Latvia and Estonia still differentiate between themselves and Russians - shouldn't that be what any ethno-Nationalist should praise? :coffee:
Perhaps you should spare some Inet traffic? Your input is meaningless.
Do you have anything to say on the subject, that's shitty condition of economy of independent Latvia and how Latvians like to lie about it?
Sigurd
04-17-2009, 09:36 AM
Perhaps you should spare some Inet traffic? Your input is meaningless.
Unlike in Russia, in Austria we have enough bandwidth for the whole country available. :thumb001:
Do you have anything to say on the subject, that's shitty condition of economy of independent Latvia and how Latvians like to lie about it?
I saw a short documentary about Latvia's economic situation the other day/some time last week. It is correct that their economic situation isn't brilliant at present, but that's naught to do with their independence. In fact, a few years ago the country was on its way to prosperity.
Their state may be only an inch away from bankruptcy, but that's perhaps due to an over-optimistic faith in the economic system. Let me remind you that Iceland, independent since 1945 and just a few years ago referred to as one of the best-off countries in the world, hit rock bottom much earlier.
I think the scope of the current economic downturn in the last few months is only so great because it is a small country. A small country, to be competitive often has to place their bets on one card, and when that card no longer works, of course they will find it harder to come up with quick alternatives.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with independence from Russia. After the end of the Soviet Union, the Baltic countries were in shatters, and that's attributable to approx. 50 years of Soviet oppression.
Inese
04-17-2009, 11:18 AM
Lithuanians themselves are of little concern for me, unlike SS-spirited Latvians and Estonians they have given citizenship to resident Russians and don't discriminate them much, and even thou they're rabidly Russophobic what they do doesn't bother me much.
Our latvian SS members and the estonian SS members are heros and freedom fighters for our country they receive much honor in our countries (also today!!) and that is important because they was fighting for our indipendence and against Russian suppression and imperialism!!
And you are lying on industrial production output ---- after my country became free again early 1990ies we had much success and our economy boomed more than ever when we was suppressed by USSR! the economy crisis hits my country hard yes it is true , but before the crisis our Baltic countries were the rocket economies of Europe!! We have more potential and we can free it after we became indipendent from Russia. There is a time after the crisis and we will have a big come back, i tell you!!
Unlike in Russia, in Austria we have enough bandwidth for the whole country available.
It isn't the reason to clog Inet with spam.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with independence from Russia. After the end of the Soviet Union, the Baltic countries were in shatters, and that's attributable to approx. 50 years of Soviet oppression.
And do me a favor, read the name of the thread a t least before swithcing to the bot mode and starting bashing Russians/Soviets etc.
We're talking about Latvia BEFORE 1940. Inese and other Latvians elsewhere like to brag about how successful and prosperous their country was when it got independance from Russia. Well, it's a blatant lie. Comment on this, don't hijack the thread.
Eldritch
04-17-2009, 12:21 PM
The Latvians are a highly intelligent and creative people. Since they are not infected with the multikulti virus, their success in the coming decades is guaranteed. Their only disadvantage is the Russian scum poisoning their country.
And what have they created so far? :D
Eldritch
04-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Read my post again. I was talking abiut the future, not the past.
The Lawspeaker
04-17-2009, 12:48 PM
By the way- I can't remember the last time that I saw a label "Made in Russia"...
Read my post again. I was talking abiut the future, not the past.
What makes you think that Estonians, with their proverbial retardness, are creative? :confused:
The Lawspeaker
04-17-2009, 01:33 PM
What makes you think that Estonians, with their proverbial retardness, are creative? :confused:
Ah come on Hors, you know that Estonia is actually one of the first e-governments in the world (http://news.cnet.com/Estonia-pulls-off-nationwide-Net-voting/2100-1028_3-5898115.html)(at least they are pursuing that goal) and happens to be one of the most wired nations in Europe.
You can work on your laptop in Tallinn and have wireless Internet all over the place. How's that for Russia ? Anyways when it comes to freedom of press, Reporters Without Borders ranked Estonia 4th out of 169. Russia... well.. ends up at nr. 141. (2008)
What makes you think that Estonians, with their proverbial retardness, are creative? :confused:
In the few years that we have been independent since 1991, we have invented and created LOTS of things. Estonia is the most wired country in entire Europe. You can't find a place here where there isn't internet. Our government is good too. We can do all our needed things in the internet, pay taxes and such stuff. "e-Government"
We are one of the heading countries in the world of IT. We invented Skype. If you are using it, then stop using it because you hate anything and everything that isn't Russian. A.K.A Russian Imperialism.
And ALL of this in these few years. And the economic crisis... We are managing quite good, because of our good government. There is even a plan to donate lots of money to Latvia, to support them.
Ah come on Hors, you know that Estonia is actually one of the first e-governments in the world (http://news.cnet.com/Estonia-pulls-off-nationwide-Net-voting/2100-1028_3-5898115.html)(at least they are pursuing that goal) and happens to be one of the most wired nations in Europe.
You can work on your laptop in Tallinn and have wireless Internet all over the place. How's that for Russia ? Anyways when it comes to freedom of press, Reporters Without Borders ranked Estonia 4th out of 169. Russia... well.. ends up at nr. 141. (2008)
I didn't see your post before I started posting, but you made the same point as I did:D You're a very intelligent man.
In the few years that we have been independent since 1991, we have invented and created LOTS of things. Estonia is the most wired country in entire Europe.
I see. It were Estonians who invented the wire... What's about railroad rails, I wonder? :D
But, tell us about other Estonian achievements, I'm all attention!
Our government is good too.
I'm afraid I gotta have a break or otherwise I gonna explode because of laughing. Be back in an hour...
I see. It were Estonians who invented the wire... What's about railroad rails, I wonder? :D
But, tell us about other Estonian achievements, I'm all attention!
Don't play dumb... And there are many achievements. Use Google. I would say that the most notable invention would be Skype. But even during USSR times, Estonians invented things. We have always been smart people. Like the hand chainsaw, in 1947. By an Estonian sent to Siberia.
I'm afraid I gotta have a break or otherwise I gonna explode because of laughing. Be back in an hour...
Our government has no corruption, mafia doesn't influence it and so on. It's the opposite in Russia. So don't even try to say that the Estonian government sucks, if your homeland's government is one of the worst in the world.
Why am I even bothering answering a troll? He doesn't care what I say, he will always act like a troll and not make any productive posts. Only trollish posts.
The Lawspeaker
04-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Here are a couple of them- on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ross/4062313/).
Sigurd
04-17-2009, 02:19 PM
We're talking about Latvia BEFORE 1940. Inese and other Latvians elsewhere like to brag about how successful and prosperous their country was when it got independance from Russia. Well, it's a blatant lie. Comment on this, don't hijack the thread.
Well, pardon - since the discussion in the topic revolved mostly around the claim that Russians built up the economy, I misunderstood your question and magically assumed that you meant the more recent independence, not the "original one". My bad.
As to Latvia 1918-1941 I can't say much as I am not too well informed about the subject. It does however seem somewhat irrelevant, as it does not take the fact away that Soviet rule stalled and hindered their further development.
So yea, perhaps they were delapidated and economically weak between the wars. But this is also true for may other countries, who however in turn prospered much sooner because they were not controlled by an objective regime.
Since I strongly believe that if anything, Russian/Soviet rule was hindersome, it is irrelevant to me whether the Baltic countries prospered before their integration as an SSR or not. Fact is, they didn't prosper during the Soviet rule, at least not to their full potential, and that makes all assumptions and discussions about the previous situation a moot point. :rolleyes2:
Eldritch
04-17-2009, 02:20 PM
What makes you think that Estonians, with their proverbial retardness, are creative? :confused:
I was talking about Latvians, not Estonians. So who's the retard now?
Hilding
04-17-2009, 02:46 PM
I think that Mr. Hors have a SERIOUS crush for Inese, that's what I really think this is all about. Mocking another European country is not really very "preservative"... :coffee:
I was talking about Latvians, not Estonians.
Ah, fellas, you see, even a Finn knows that Estonian are retarded! :D
Ah come on Hors, you know that Estonia is actually one of the first e-governments in the world (http://news.cnet.com/Estonia-pulls-off-nationwide-Net-voting/2100-1028_3-5898115.html)(at least they are pursuing that goal) and happens to be one of the most wired nations in Europe.
You can work on your laptop in Tallinn and have wireless Internet all over the place. How's that for Russia ?
Enough to say that the 4G/WiMAX network is fully operational in Moscow already.
The Lawspeaker
04-17-2009, 02:51 PM
I think that Mr. Hors have a SERIOUS crush for Inese, that's what I really think this is all about. Mocking another European country is not really very "preservative"... :coffee:
I actually wouldn't be too surprised if that is indeed the case :D
Don't play dumb... And there are many achievements. Use Google. I would say that the most notable invention would be Skype.
Period. LMAO
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
But even during USSR times, Estonians invented things. We have always been smart people.
Laddie, you're an asset. :D
Our government has no corruption, mafia doesn't influence it and so on.
LOL
http://tv.delfi.lv/ru/video/m25j0hZS/
Well, pardon - since the discussion in the topic revolved mostly around the claim that Russians built up the economy,
And I can always prove it.
I misunderstood your question and magically assumed that you meant the more recent independence, not the "original one". My bad.
Your apologies are accepted.
As to Latvia 1918-1941 I can't say much as I am not too well informed about the subject. It does however seem somewhat irrelevant, as it does not take the fact away that Soviet rule stalled and hindered their further development.
You're wrong. Latvians claim that their country can only be prosperous while not being an integral part of Russia. They cite the inter war period. However, as we see, Latvia was far from being prosperous in that time. When the USSR re-established the control over Latvia, the latter flourished, mostly due to material and human investments from Russia proper.
And, speaking about present times, now we see that after Latvia squandered all what was left from the USSR Latvians are again poor as parish rats.
There is even a saying in Russian that a Latvian has only his dick and his soul.
So yea, perhaps they were delapidated and economically weak between the wars. But this is also true for may other countries,
But representatives of the later don'c cry it was the golden time of their countries. While Latvians do.
Since I strongly believe that if anything, Russian/Soviet rule was hindersome, it is irrelevant to me whether the Baltic countries prospered before their integration as an SSR or not. Fact is, they didn't prosper during the Soviet rule, at least not to their full potential, and that makes all assumptions and discussions about the previous situation a moot point.
It's only your personal opinion which is refuted by the current economic crisis/catastrophe
Sigurd
04-17-2009, 04:28 PM
When the USSR re-established the control over Latvia, the latter flourished, mostly due to material and human investments from Russia proper.
And even if that were the case, then it matters little. Freedom is our greatest good, and most would prefer to be a struggling free people than a prospering enslaved people.
If economic upturn were what made a country great, then Post-WWII Germany would take the laurels. But we're still occupied, so what is a flourishing economy to any German nationalist?
Even given you were to empirically or logically prove that Russia built the economy of Latvia, then from the viewpoint of an ethnic preservationist, it is still not favourable to stride for re-inclusion into Russia/Soviet Union of the Baltic countries.
The same BTW would go for the Scots. They know that secession would be better for identity and tradition matters, but know that it would be detrimental for economic matters. Yet, many of them still stride for Scots independence, because freedom is a greater good than wealth.
Unless of course you believe that wealth makes happier than freedom. Instead, often the spirit of the latter is what creates the former. An excellent example of this would be Finland: A backwards stretch of woodland under Swedish and Russian rule, one of the leading economic nations now.
And, speaking about present times, now we see that after Latvia squandered all what was left from the USSR Latvians are again poor as parish rats.
There is even a saying in Russian that a Latvian has only his dick and his soul.
Good, because a running insider joke amongst comrades here is that a Russian only has a dick, but no soul. As such, if a Latvian has both a dick and a soul, he at least has something important that the Russian lacks. :thumb001:
It's only your personal opinion which is refuted by the current economic crisis/catastrophe
That has nothing to do with independence. Iceland became independent from Denmark in 1945, but went bankrupt much earlier. The trouble is that oft small countries struggle during a crisis, because they previously had to place their bets on a single card, whilst world powers like the US might be able to look for alternatives.
The implications of the current crisis have nothing to do with independence or being a dominion - it solely has to do with false faith in an economic system, a trouble shared by all of the Western World as it were. Just that evidently, the pawn falls before the king, and thus the smaller countries are oft hit the hardest.
And even if that were the case, then it matters little. Freedom is our greatest good, and most would prefer to be a struggling free people than a prospering enslaved people.
This thread is about economics.
Good, because a running insider joke amongst comrades here is that a Russian only has a dick, but no soul.
It's good comrades still can joke having that dick in their arse. :)
The Soviet rule significantly slowed Estonia's economic growth, resulting in a wide wealth gap in comparison with its neighboring countries (e.g., Finland, Sweden). For example, Estonian economy and standard of living exceeded or at least was equal to that in Finland prior to WWII. Despite Soviet and now Russian claims of improvements in standards, even three decades after WWII Estonia was rife with housing and food shortages.
The economic damages directly attributable to the second Soviet occupation (from 1945 to 1991) have been estimated to lie in the range of hundreds of billions of dollars. Similarly, the damages to Estonian ecology were estimated at around 4 billion USD.
For example, Estonian economy and standard of living exceeded or at least was equal to that in Finland prior to WWII.
Source?
Skandi
04-25-2009, 08:17 PM
Finland only gained independance from Russia in 1917, so they are probably not a brilliant example to use here.
Finland only gained independance from Russia in 1917, so they are probably not a brilliant example to use here.
Estonia gained independence in 1918, from Russia. Estonia had a freedom war 1918-1920. We fully gained independence in 1920, when we had beaten the overwhelming forces of Russian commies, had gotten very close to the Russian capital and when we had liberated Latvia.
So Finland had an... advantage? As they could advance their country and economy when Estonia was in a bitter freedom war against such odds that very few thought about victory. But the cultural and genetic superiority over the enemy helped a lot. Young schoolboys, who volunteered into the Estonian army(without them, Estonia would have lost), were still better and more skilled then trained Russian soldiers.
Source?
Maybe this will give some insight into our economy before the Soviet occupation:
National economic policy of the late 1930s was influenced by the ideas of economic nationalism (Friedrich List’s national economy) — the state’s regulating role in economy grew; the state sector broadened and became stronger; a planned economy and protectionism were utilised. Estonia’s most important branches of industry were textiles, chemical industry, foodstuffs, metallurgy, paper, timber and leather industries; also the processing of minerals. Products included air-planes, speedboats, radios, modern means of communication, refrigerating machines and electronic appliances. The largest investments in Estonian industry came from Germany, Great Britain and the Scandinavian countries. In some areas of industry, foreign capital dominated. In 1938, industry’s share in the national income reached 32%.
Despite the success in industry, Estonia remained an agrarian country. In 1934, slightly more than 60% of the population was involved in cultivating the land; over half of national income came from agriculture. The importance of foreign trade for Estonia was enormous. Estonia exported agricultural and industrial products (textile goods, paper, cellulose, plywood, shale oil and petrol obtained from oil shale, cement, glass, matches, leathergoods, sweets), raw materials and half-finished goods. Imports contained industrial output and raw materials. By the late 1920s, about 40% of industrial output was exported, in the 1930s the share was 20–25%. The share of industrial products in Estonian total export in the 1920–1930s was 36–44%. In 1938, about 28% of agricultural output was exported. By the year 1936, Estonia had foreign trade relations with more than 100 countries, led by Great Britain and Germany where Estonian butter and bacon were highly regarded. In the course of 20 years, Estonia won a secure position on international markets.
The Estonian standard of living reached the average in Europe, being about as high as in Finland and Poland. By the late 1930s, Estonian economy also employed a foreign workforce. The lifespan of the Republic of Estonia unfortunately turned out to be too short to make use of all the possibilities offered by independent statehood.
Source (http://www.estonica.org/eng/lugu.html?menyy_id=98&kateg=43&alam=61&leht=3)
Skandi
04-25-2009, 08:47 PM
So Finland had an... advantage? As they could advance their country and economy when Estonia was in a bitter freedom war against such odds that very few thought about victory.
Finland also had a civil war at the same time,albeit only for a few months.(this also involved Sweden) However this is beside the point in this thread, carry on :).
Their economy also collapsed in the late 1920's
Their economy also collapsed in the late 1920's
The same happened to Estonia in the 1920's. Finland as a way bigger country, with more people and many resources. It has a clear advantage. So if the Estonian standard of living was the same high as in Finland. Then the economic success of Estonia was quite good, don't you think?
Eldritch
04-26-2009, 07:09 AM
Or, as the Putinjugend like to put it:
Hey, governments!
STOP CHANGE A HISTORY!
"A Soviet Story"
http://hommaforum.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3.0;attach=1297;im age
Maybe this will give some insight into our economy before the Soviet occupation:
...
The Estonian standard of living reached the average in Europe, being about as high as in Finland and Poland. By the late 1930s, Estonian economy also employed a foreign workforce. The lifespan of the Republic of Estonia unfortunately turned out to be too short to make use of all the possibilities offered by independent statehood.
Source (http://www.estonica.org/eng/lugu.html?menyy_id=98&kateg=43&alam=61&leht=3)
The real quote:
The Estonian standard of living lagged behind that of developing Western countries, but reached the average in Europe, being about as high as in Finland and Poland.
Clearly, Poland and Finland were undeveloped backward countries back then. As Thrymheim rightfully noted, they're no example for such a comparison.
Another thing, what "occupation" you keep talking about? :confused:
Clearly, Poland and Finland were undeveloped backward countries back then.
It doesn't mean underdeveloped, it means European average which is far better than underdeveloped... I doubt the Soviets reached that level of living standards!
When these poor Soviet soldiers arrived to the Baltics, they probably couldn't believe the reality where people actually lived in decent houses with electricity and clean toilets, where people had all kinds of appliances and luxury the regular starving Soviet peasant couldn't dream of.
Another thing, what "occupation" you keep talking about? :confused:
The one where the Soviets took the Baltics by force and held undemocratic elections with only communist candidates and soon enough started killing innocent people and sending them off to Siberia. The one where we were cut off the Western world, where our economy and development stagnated harshly, where our ecology was damaged and hundreds of thousands of communist brainwashed colonists were sent in with the intent of Russification of the area - who still cause the majority of social problems despite being a minority.
Or are you implying we actually begged for it and joined by free will? :rolleyes:
It doesn't mean underdeveloped, it means European average which is far better than underdeveloped... I doubt the Soviets reached that level of living standards!
When these poor Soviet soldiers arrived to the Baltics, they probably couldn't believe the reality where people actually lived in decent houses with electricity and clean toilets, where people had all kinds of appliances and luxury the regular starving Soviet peasant couldn't dream of.
LOL
Another piece of eSStonian BS exposed:
http://y.delfi.ee/norm/3935/243522_7DFSZ6.jpeg
As we can see, there is almost no difference between Estonia and the USSR, devasted by WWI, the civil War, the Red terror and international isolation.
Besides, most of GDP was generated by Russia proper, while populous regions of Central Asia and Caucasus were only lowering the average figures.
In the same time, Estonia is separated by an insurmountable abyss from the Western countries.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the economy of Estonia went down the drain during the Great Depression, while the USSR kept developing and, without doubt, became way more wealthy than backward agricultural Estonia.
So much for your BS, laddie.
The one where the Soviets took the Baltics by force and held undemocratic elections with only communist candidates and soon enough started killing innocent people and sending them off to Siberia. The one where we were cut off the Western world, where our economy and development stagnated harshly, where our ecology was damaged and hundreds of thousands of communist brainwashed colonists were sent in with the intent of Russification of the area - who still cause the majority of social problems despite being a minority.
Or are you implying we actually begged for it and joined by free will? :rolleyes:
The introduction of the Red Army in Estonia and the elections were no less legit than the deal with Jewish Bolsheviks who granted Estonia "independence".
And I have no pity for "innocent Estonians", not after they cooperated with Jewish Bolsheviks and stabbed the White army marching on Petrograd in back, thus saving the Judeo-Bolshevik terror regime.
And I have no pity for "innocent Estonians", not after they cooperated with Jewish Bolsheviks and stabbed the White army marching on Petrograd in back, thus saving the Judeo-Bolshevik terror regime.
As much as I would have preferred to see a White Russia rather than a Red one, the Estonian people had reached their point of being fed up with the war. The biggest issue Estonians had with the Northwest army was that they didn't recognize our independence... now that alone is such a grave mistake considering the fact our troops were foremost fighting for our sovereignty, not for the continuance of Tsarist rule over our land.
You're lying.
Forget about Estonians betraying the NW White Army and leaving the front... what actually mattered was that Estonians cut every line of supply the army had. In a devasted country with its reserves on the other side of the line which Bolsheviks allowed Estonians to call their border, it was the mortal blow which buried the best hope to finish with Bolsheviks. The White Army was already in sight of Petrograd! The bulk of it was in mere 20 km from it! And Estonians left the army with no ammo!
Lenin, Trotzky and Co were so much grateful for cooperation that they even gave some Russia proper land to Estonia and paid the "30 silver coins" in gold.
And the affection was mutual. What was left from the White army was ANNIHILATED by Estonians in death camps. And after them the remaining 15 thousand Russian soldiers were forced into labor camps where most of them died out eventually.
And even as it is completely besides the question, OF COURSE the NW Army DID recognize independence of Estonia. So stop bullshitting, please.
What was left from the White army was ANNIHILATED by Estonians in death camps. And after them the remaining 15 thousand Russian soldiers were forced into labor camps where most of them died out eventually.
What?
As they were stationed in Auvere and Vaivara, they were given tools to build barracks to get shelter from the cold. Instead they didn't do that and went to nearby villages where they committed robberies. After that our government did demand that the NW army on our soil must be liquidated. The Allies, except the French, agreed to that as they saw that these units were not capable to be united for battle. The Narva front remained in its place until the peace treaty was signed.
Most of the troops wanted to go back to Russia. They were given that opportunity, yet how they were treated there was beyond our control. I've read 14000 of them got a typhus infection. Any camps I can imagine would be something like quarantines, they got food from the Americans but indeed they were in a dire need of medical aid which many did not receive.
And even as it is completely besides the question, OF COURSE the NW Army DID recognize independence of Estonia.
Alright, maybe intolerance would be a better word for it then. They called Estonia "the potato republic they will sooner or later reunite with Russia" And then they expect cooperation?
Stop lying, please.
The white army was completely annihilated in Estonia.
Your crony Trotzky, who paid you for the the murder of the white army you betrayed earlier, wrote in "My life" (available in English): "As soon as they [White Russians] crossed it [the Estonian border], the government of Estonia disarmed them. Nobody cared for them in London and Paris. What was the North-Western army of Antanta yesterday was dying out because of cold and hunger now".
But not all were "lucky" enough to die in Estonian death camps. The Talabsky regiment which was the last to come to the Estonian border as it was covering the retreat of the NW army was disarmed... but not allowed into Estonia, AS WAS AGREED IN ADVANCE. The defenceless soldiers were ordered back, on the other side of the ice covered river where Bolsheviks were waiting for them. The entire regiment was wiped out.
God curse Estonians.
Not 1000 of "occupations and deportations" can redeem their mean treachery.
Your crony Trotzky, who paid you for the the murder of the white army you betrayed earlier, wrote in "My life" (available in English): "As soon as they [White Russians] crossed it [the Estonian border], the government of Estonia disarmed them. Nobody cared for them in London and Paris. What was the North-Western army of Antanta yesterday was dying out because of cold and hunger now".
While books from some other White Army veterans who were in Estonia back then mention nothing of "death camps". Even if many died, they died of typhus.
One thing Estonians hated most was communism, don't try to say we did that with the intention of helping the Bolsheviks! What the government decided back then was in the interest of our independence, peace and security. It is regrettable but the Whites were in no state of being able to hold a successful offense. Having already suffered enough damages by the Reds we weren't going to ask for more. Here's a parallel - Finns did a similar thing after WWII, they deported many of the Estonian troops who fought with the Finnish forces against the Soviets - the Soviets in turn sent them to death camps in the USSR.
Eldritch
04-26-2009, 05:17 PM
God curse Estonians.
.
It is in those three little words that your major malfunction is distilled into, Hors.
While books from some other White Army veterans who were in Estonia back then mention nothing of "death camps". Even if many died, they died of typhus.
When you will stop lying finally?
Here's another witness, not one of your Jewish cronies or a bullshitting Estonian "researcher", but a famous Russian writer, Kuprin, who was with the NW white army back then:
Russian regiments are not allowed over the wire fence by Estonians. People freeze to death by heaps this night. Soldiers, being grown men, can survive, most of the frozen to death are women and children.
God curse Estonians!
One thing Estonians hated most was communism, don't try to say we did that with the intention of helping the Bolsheviks!
You helped the Bolsheviks with the purpose to get independence. What's more vile and illegal, the occupation of Estonia and deportations of Estonians by the USSR or the mean treachery of comrade in arms by Estonians, betrayal of the anti-Judeo-Bolshevik fighting force on the march to victory and the annihilation of the remains of the NW white army, paid by the Judeo-Bolsheviks in advance with gold and Russian land?
What the government decided back then was in the interest of our independence, peace and security.
Why do you keep whining about the occupation and deportations then? You saved the Judeo-Bolshevik regime, you stabbed in back the force which was going to crush it. It inevitably led to the occupation and deportations. You got what you deserved, don't you think so?
And I don't mention that your mean treachery was indirect reason of deaths of millions of Russians, total devastation of the country and many years of Jewish despotism.
It is regrettable but the Whites were in no state of being able to hold a successful offense.
Oh, yeah, pushing the Reds to Petrograd every day...
Having already suffered enough damages by the Reds we weren't going to ask for more.
That's why you confiscated all ammo, arms, clothings and food of the NW white army.
By the way, you didn't distribute it even later, to your ex-comrades in arms you sold out to Trotzky and Co, who were dying every day in your camps because of cold, hunger and typhus. It was confiscated for the needs of Estonians only...
And those who survived were sent to forced labor camps...
When you will stop lying finally?
Here's another witness, not one of your Jewish cronies or a bullshitting Estonian "researcher", but a famous Russian writer, Kuprin, who was with the NW white army back then:
Russian regiments are not allowed over the wire fence by Estonians. People freeze to death by heaps this night. Soldiers, being grown men, can survive, most of the frozen to death are women and children.
God curse Estonians!
You helped the Bolsheviks with the purpose to get independence. What's more vile and illegal, the occupation of Estonia and deportations of Estonians by the USSR or the mean treachery of comrade in arms by Estonians, betrayal of the anti-Judeo-Bolshevik fighting force on the march to victory and the annihilation of the remains of the NW white army, paid by the Judeo-Bolsheviks in advance with gold and Russian land?
Why do you keep whining about the occupation and deportations then? You saved the Judeo-Bolshevik regime, you stabbed in back the force which was going to crush it. It inevitably led to the occupation and deportations. You got what you deserved, don't you think so?
And I don't mention that your mean treachery was indirect reason of deaths of millions of Russians, total devastation of the country and many years of Jewish despotism.
Oh, yeah, pushing the Reds to Petrograd every day...
That's why you confiscated all ammo, arms, clothings and food of the NW white army.
By the way, you didn't distribute it even later, to your ex-comrades in arms you sold out to Trotzky and Co, who were dying every day in your camps because of cold, hunger and typhus. It was confiscated for the needs of Estonians only...
And those who survived were sent to forced labor camps...
EWtt is giving you the truth. Stop accusing him of lying, as you're the one who should be accused.
If Estonia and USSR were such big friends, then why did USSR attempt a coup d'état in Estonia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_coup_of_1924_in_Estonia
Your posts are so trollish and full of false info that I just ignore them. But this one was just too ****ed up to ignore. Do you actually realize what you're posting?
First the freedom war against the USSR in 1918-1920. Then the attempted coup d'état in 1924 by USSR. Then the annexation in 1940. And you claim that Estonia helped the USSR? USSR was the only problem for independent Estonia in it's entire history.
LOL
Another piece of eSStonian BS exposed:
http://y.delfi.ee/norm/3935/243522_7DFSZ6.jpeg
As we can see, there is almost no difference between Estonia and the USSR, devasted by WWI, the civil War, the Red terror and international isolation.
Besides, most of GDP was generated by Russia proper, while populous regions of Central Asia and Caucasus were only lowering the average figures.
In the same time, Estonia is separated by an insurmountable abyss from the Western countries.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the economy of Estonia went down the drain during the Great Depression, while the USSR kept developing and, without doubt, became way more wealthy than backward agricultural Estonia.
So much for your BS, laddie.
It should be also noted, that GDP and "living standards" are different things. The latter do not reflect the economical capacity of the country with a non-market economical system. In other words, it is not correct to compare "living standards" of Estonia and the USSR and to make any conclusions pertaining economical capacity based on such a comparison.
The entire Estonian GDP was distributed among the poor and the rich and gave the average income figure. In the same time, the real income in the USSR was only a small part of GDP, as the latter which was spent mostly on industrialization, which later allowed us to crush the spine of Nazi Germany and its Estonian and other lackeys.
So, while the "standarts of living" were almost the same in Estonia and the USSR (before the Great Depression, which affected Estonia, but not the USSR), the economy was way better in the USSR... as can be well seen from the stats of industrial and agricultural production.
EWtt is giving you the truth. Stop accusing him of lying, as you're the one who should be accused.
If Estonia and USSR were such big friends, then why did USSR attempt a coup d'état in Estonia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_coup_of_1924_in_Estonia
Your posts are so trollish and full of false info that I just ignore them. But this one was just too ****ed up to ignore. Do you actually realize what you're posting?
First the freedom war against the USSR in 1918-1920. Then the attempted coup d'état in 1924 by USSR. Then the annexation in 1940. And you claim that Estonia helped the USSR? USSR was the only problem for independent Estonia in it's entire history.
Seriously, I can not answer to such idiotic posts, even if I wanted to.
Seriously, I can not answer to such idiotic posts, even if I wanted to.
Too many undeniable facts? I know what you mean. By the way, my post isn't idiotic.
Too many undeniable facts?
Nah, it's just the mods... they believe they should protect idiots from normal people, not vice versa.
I know what you mean. By the way, my post isn't idiotic.
Yes, it IS. Or maybe I'm not tolerant enough to speak with boys from elementary school.
If Estonia and USSR were such big friends, then why did USSR attempt a coup d'état in Estonia?
The problem is that Estonians are not smart people, to put it mildly. Never were. They thought it's OK to make a deal with the Bolsheviks and sell out the white Russian army, they didn't realize they were next, poor stupid bastards. I believe you descend from those bright people in the uninterrupted line, as you're as clever.
And you claim that Estonia helped the USSR? USSR was the only problem for independent Estonia in it's entire history.
I claim nothing. It's facts.
The NW white army, which contributed a lot in victory over the Bolsheviks in Estonia proper made a deal with Estonians and recognized indepedence of Estonia, while Estonians promised to help the army to take Petersburg.
But Estonians didn't honor the deal, they gave almost no support to the white army, only 2500 soldiers... and started negotiations with the Bolsheviks.
In the decisive moment of battle for Petersburg, when the white army actually entered its suburbs, Estonia made a deal with the Bolsheviks and the Estonian regiment left the front and thus allowed the Bolshevik forces to pour in the gaping hole, It effectively stalled the attack on Petersburg.
After that Estonians cut the supply lines of the NW army, and when the army started to retreat back to Estonia and reached the border Estonians disarmed them and put in death camps, where majority died because of cold, hunger and typhus. 15 000 survivors were sent to forced labor camps.
Instead Estonia was recognized as sovereign nation by the Bolsheviks (and became the first nation to recognize the Bolshevik regime), given Russian land and gold.
So, did Estonia help the USSR?
Russian regiments are not allowed over the wire fence by Estonians. People freeze to death by heaps this night. Soldiers, being grown men, can survive, most of the frozen to death are women and children.
God curse Estonians!
I wouldn't let them infect our people with typhus, either. Surely they didn't detain anyone in camps without a valid reason.
You helped the Bolsheviks with the purpose to get independence.
The Whites disliked the idea of our independence. Why should have we aided them after they had no proper fighting capability and were ill-mannered against us - with the gunpoint robberies and their imperialism.
What's more vile and illegal, the occupation of Estonia and deportations of Estonians by the USSR or the mean treachery of comrade in arms by Estonians, betrayal of the anti-Judeo-Bolshevik fighting force on the march to victory and the annihilation of the remains of the NW white army, paid by the Judeo-Bolsheviks in advance with gold and Russian land?
As I said - we did not fight for restoring Tsarist rule over our land, we fought for our sovereignty.
And I don't mention that your mean treachery was indirect reason of deaths of millions of Russians, total devastation of the country and many years of Jewish despotism.
By that time, this force was incapable of crushing anything and the Western allies agreed. By their own estimates, they had around 9000 men in mid-December 1919. This number could have actually been even less, just using it to get more food and supplies.
Every day many died due to hunger and cold. Glazenap - the man who lead the NW army in December 1919 admitted that "the lifespan of the army shouldn't be estimated in days, but hours". Plus their morale was very low after retreating from Petrograd.
Having been tired of years of warfare and then getting an opportunity for statehood and peace - why should have we continued and risked it all for an army who had low fighting capabilities, who had negative attitudes towards our people and independence, and even used outright criminality against our people!?
I wouldn't let them infect our people with typhus, either. Surely they didn't detain anyone in camps without a valid reason.
Offer one then.
The Whites disliked the idea of our independence. Why should have we aided them after they had no proper fighting capability and were ill-mannered against us - with the gunpoint robberies and their imperialism.
Maybe because you agreed to do so, after the NW army recognized your independence?
As I said - we did not fight for restoring Tsarist rule over our land, we fought for our sovereignty.
You made an illegal deal with the Bolshevik out-laws, why you keep whining about the same lawless Bolsheviks occupying and deporting you?
And if you say the deal was legal... so was the occupation etc.
By that time, this force was incapable of crushing anything and the Western allies agreed. By their own estimates, they had around 9000 men in mid-December 1919. This number could have actually been even less, just using it to get more food and supplies.
In mid December what was left of the army was in Estonia, and it was not receiveing any supplies, even those belonging to it.
Every day many died due to hunger and cold. Glazenap - the man who lead the NW army in December 1919 admitted that "the lifespan of the army shouldn't be estimated in days, but hours". Plus their morale was very low after retreating from Petrograd.
Yes, they were dying in Estonian death camps. Together with more than 40 000 refuges.
Having been tired of years of warfare and then getting an opportunity for statehood and peace - why should have we continued and risked it all for an army who had low fighting capabilities, who had negative attitudes towards our people and independence, and even used outright criminality against our people!?
You made the deal with the Bolsheviks when the white NW army was within 20 km fromthe center of Petersburg. Contrary to your oblisgations, you didn't comit sufficient forces to the offensive, and even those you did treacherously left the front.
Anyway, I don't argue that Estonians had to support the white NW army. I don't deem them neither smart enough to forsee the future nor honorable to keep their promeses. But why Estonians keep whining about the occupation? It was no less just than their betrayal and later annihilation of the white NW army and no less legal than their deal with the Judeo-Bolsheviks...
Offer one then.
Have I not? They robbed people at gunpoint and had typhus which is highly infectious.
Maybe because you agreed to do so, after the NW army recognized your independence?
They were everything but happy with us wanting to be independent. Their ultimate goal included us being under their rule. If we had helped those puny remains of an army they had and they had been victorious, we'd have to start another part of the independence war to defend us from them just like we needed to defend us from the reds.
You made an illegal deal with the Bolshevik out-laws, why you keep whining about the same lawless Bolsheviks occupying and deporting you?
And if you say the deal was legal... so was the occupation etc.
What is illegal about that deal? We had Western support and they agreed that the White army was in no way going to be successful anymore. It would have been a waste of human lives and would have risked our independence which was our goal.
Yes, they were dying in Estonian death camps. Together with more than 40 000 refuges.
They died of typhus. As they were severely ill, and were known to commit crime, they had to be watched over. Sure, the food supplies were scarce and the medical treatment as well. We had no responsibility for that, up until the beginning of March the NW army command and liquidation commission were responsible for taking care of them. From the beginning of March they were started to be treated by the Estonians and the situation got better, the food came from the Americans.
There were POW camps, though. But that's another thing and had nothing to do with the NW army (except those who ran over to the Bolshevik side). The refugees were also detained to keep them from dispersing. And about disarming - finally the command came from A. Dzerozhinsky himself. The NW army itself finally liquidated themselves.
You made the deal with the Bolsheviks when the white NW army was within 20 km fromthe center of Petersburg. Contrary to your oblisgations, you didn't comit sufficient forces to the offensive, and even those you did treacherously left the front.
What deal with the Bolsheviks? Tartu Peace Treaty? The last frontline of our Independence War (in 1920) was similar to the border which was signed in the Tartu Peace Treaty, as was marked by general Laidoner. Not Petrograd.
Here you go, the 1920 frontline is marked in red, there had been no advances since December 1919:
http://riigi.arhiiv.ee/naitus/Ep1920-1946/01/07_kaart3.jpg
It was near Petrograd in summer 1919 but they kicked us (and the Whites) back:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/et/6/6c/Vabaduss%C3%B5da_.JPG
Anyway, I don't argue that Estonians had to support the white NW army. I don't deem them neither smart enough to forsee the future nor honorable to keep their promeses. But why Estonians keep whining about the occupation? It was no less just than their betrayal and later annihilation of the white NW army and no less legal than their deal with the Judeo-Bolsheviks...
I doubt you'll be getting anything I say but they were very intelligent and knew not to risk our independence for the remains of an army who had no chance of being victorious anymore and whose attitude was negative towards us.
Skandi
04-27-2009, 04:12 PM
. Sure, the food supplies were scarce nd the medical treatment as well.
Would that not be true for the whole population? You can't give your "prisoners" food and medication that you don't have.
Would that not be true for the whole population?
Of course, no. Estonians were not dying because of cold and starvation.
You can't give your "prisoners" food and medication that you don't have.
Estonians had both food and medication. The NW white army food and medication. Estonians confiscated it for needs of Estonia.
Of course, no. Estonians were not dying because of cold and starvation.
Estonians had both food and medication. The NW white army food and medication. Estonians confiscated it for needs of Estonia.
You don't know anything about the subject that you're talking about. I have read quite a lot of historical literature. So you have no point of claiming anything false.
Estonians didn't confiscate any food from the NW army. The NW army marched through Estonia, raped women, killed peasants and stole the food supplies of farms.
When the farmers were left alive but their food was stolen, then the farmers starved to DEATH, in the winter, because of the NW army.
When the NW had been defeated near Petrograd and only some remains were coming back towards Estonia, then of course their weapons were confiscated.
Who would allow bandits into their country, bandits who would rape women and steal food?
Please stop acting like a troll and go educate yourself before making false claims:coffee:
I wonder, where is the "ignore a retard" button here?
I wonder, where is the "ignore a retard" button here?
My post was full of undeniable truth, so you just start insulting. At least you took my advice and didn't start saying that the undeniable truth is false. That's an improvement:thumbs up
I would also wish a "ignore a retard" button;)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist
Have I not? They robbed people at gunpoint and had typhus which is highly infectious.
BS
They were everything but happy with us wanting to be independent. Their ultimate goal included us being under their rule. If we had helped those puny remains of an army they had and they had been victorious, we'd have to start another part of the independence war to defend us from them just like we needed to defend us from the reds.
Don't fool yourself. You have got no chance gainst Russia, red or white. It was a wise decision to submit ot the Soviet authority back in 1940.
And in 1919 you just bought a few years of independence by smearing your reputation forever by the deal with the Judeo-Bolsheviks and betrayal and annihilation of the NW white army.
What is illegal about that deal?
The Judeo-Bolsheviks were as legit as the creation of the Estonian SSR.
They died of typhus.
Without food and warm clothing it's possbile to die because of everything, including flu.
As they were severely ill, and were known to commit crime,
Another shameful page in the short history of independent Estonia is that Estonians robbed the NW white army soldiers and officers, as well as Russian civilians, of everything valuable.
they had to be watched over. Sure, the food supplies were scarce and the medical treatment as well. We had no responsibility for that,
Plus all abundant supplies of the NW white army were stolen by Estonians.
What deal with the Bolsheviks? Tartu Peace Treaty?
The treaty was only a part of the deal. Estonians didn't back the NW white army in its march towards Petrograd. In the decisive moment of the battle Estonians left the front and cut the suplly lines of the NW white army. The remnants of the NW white army were annihilated by Estonians. Instead the llatter got their independencre and 15 000 000 gold rubles and some Russian land. That was the deal.
I doubt you'll be getting anything I say but they were very intelligent and knew not to risk our independence for the remains of an army who had no chance of being victorious anymore and whose attitude was negative towards us.
Very, very intelligent. So why you keep whining about the "occupation"? I'm sure they were intelligent enough to see it coming? Intelligent enough to know whom they were dealing with?
Estonians had both food and medication. The NW white army food and medication. Estonians confiscated it for needs of Estonia.
Estonians had no responsibility over the puny remains of the NW army.
The food came from the Americans and the NW army soldiers stole food and supplies from nearby villages at gunpoint, after which they were a criminal threat, plain thieves who had no chance to achieve anything at all against the Soviets, and Western Allies concurred. No wonder they were forced to give in their weapons (and later the NW army command told them to do so as well!). There were even firefights against those who refused to do so, and disobeyed the orders they were given by their own commanding officers. And yes, they were medically untreated for a long time, the NW army command was in charge of that until much later when Estonians started treating them with our own supplies.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist
Man, I really am grateful. :thumb001:
Estonians had no responsibility over the puny remains of the NW army.
That's why Estonians believed they're entitled to steal the supplies of the NW white army?
That's why Estonians believed they're entitled to steal the supplies of the NW white army?
There were no supplies to steal from the NW army. The only stealing was done by the NW army, the victims were Estonian people.
The NW army only had guns, nothing else. They were disarmed, because they were acting like bandits.
BS
Not BS at all. Even veterans' diaries mention how the NW army troops committed crime and suffered heavily from typhus.
Don't fool yourself. You have got no chance gainst Russia, red or white.
No chance? We achieved independence. Which was why we were in the war in the first place! We didn't fight to overthrow the Bolsheviks. :rolleyes:
It was a wise decision to submit ot the Soviet authority back in 1940.
It was a bad decision by our authoritarian government to allow Soviet bases and later to disallow resistance and disarm the population. Don't get me wrong now, the Estonian people wanted to fight back since the first Soviet troops arrived, just like Finns. Many did in the forests and no wonder they joined the SS due to all the atrocities the Soviets committed.
And in 1919 you just bought a few years of independence by smearing your reputation forever by the deal with the Judeo-Bolsheviks and betrayal and annihilation of the NW white army.
Oh come on, our Western allies concurred that the NW army was pretty much destructed and had no prospective to be battle ready anymore. The Judeo-Bolsheviks had broken all resistance and there was no question about who is in charge of Russia.
The Judeo-Bolsheviks were as legit as the creation of the Estonian SSR.
True!
Without food and warm clothing it's possbile to die because of everything, including flu.
The NW army command was responsible for their welfare! And that's the end of it. They weren't our troops and didn't fight for our goals.
The treaty was only a part of the deal. Estonians didn't back the NW white army in its march towards Petrograd. In the decisive moment of the battle Estonians left the front and cut the suplly lines of the NW white army. The remnants of the NW white army were annihilated by Estonians.
The Estonian army backed them alright. If you look at the front line in summer 1919 and by December 1919, you see that we were hit back pretty much to the same place by which our borders were defined. The NW army was not combat ready, suffered from typhus and committed crime. The NW army command later eradicated the army itself, and gave the command to disarm - there were even firefights against some of the troops who disobeyed direct orders from their commanding officers.
Instead the llatter got their independencre and 15 000 000 gold rubles and some Russian land. That was the deal.
There were also our kinsmen living in the small areas we got (and they had lived there even before any Slav had set their foot on that land) that the Soviets later took from us and still remain attached to Russia. Most of the Russian population in independent Estonia were Old Believers who had escaped from religious persecution in Russia to Swedish Estonia ages ago.
So why you keep whining about the "occupation"?
The Soviets violated the peace treaty, took Estonia by force, held undemocratic elections, committed crimes, sent many of our people to die in Siberia, sent thousands of commie brainwashed colonists here who still cause most of the social problems we have, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
I'm sure they were intelligent enough to see it coming? Intelligent enough to know whom they were dealing with?
As I said, allowing Soviet bases was the greatest mistake the government did without considering what our people thought. Estonians would have fought against them to the last man standing. And we are willing to that again and again, against any enemy who threatens our independence!
The Soviets violated the peace treaty, took Estonia by force, held undemocratic elections
And Estonians entered into illegal treaty with illegitimate Judeo-Bolsheviks and wiped out the legitimate government of Russia from Estonia.
committed crimes, sent many of our people to die in Siberia, sent thousands of commie brainwashed colonists here who still cause most of the social problems we have, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Estonians committed crimes against our people, doomed many Russians to die in the camps, deported thousands of Russians from Estonia.
For me, the so called Estonian independence is illegal, and the consequent "occupation" is just cancellation of former accomplices of the illegal deal. But, anyway, we're talking here about strange, bizzare attitudes, hipocricy of Estonians. The say that Judeo-Bolsheviks were legal, to substantiate their "independence", but in the same time call the creation of the Estonian SSR illegal. Very suitable, but so very illogical...
And Estonians entered into illegal treaty with illegitimate Judeo-Bolsheviks and wiped out the legitimate government of Russia from Estonia.
So, Estonia is an ancient part of Russia that shouldn't be independent? Don't make me laugh out loud.
Estonians committed crimes against our people, doomed many Russians to die in the camps, deported thousands of Russians from Estonia.
Yes, evil fascist Estonians gave Russians typhus! And seriously, Estonians have never deported anyone. Where do you get those silly ideas? Soviet history books?
For me, the so called Estonian independence is illegal, and the consequent "occupation" is just cancellation of former accomplices of the illegal deal.
The Estonians whose direct ancestors have lived here since the ice shield receded over this area can claim this land before anyone else! That you have once or twice taken this land by force is no basis for anything except your weird imperialistic dreams.
Maybe Russian rule over Finnic areas is also illegal?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png
The say that Judeo-Bolsheviks were legal, to substantiate their "independence", but in the same time call the creation of the Estonian SSR illegal. Very suitable, but so very illogical...
Use your common sense - when the peace treaty was signed there was no question about who was in charge of Russia!
So, Estonia is an ancient part of Russia that shouldn't be independent? Don't make me laugh out loud.
Since 1721, when it was ceded to Russia by Sweden acc. to the Nystad treaty, Estonia was Russian. After that there were not any legal arrangements about Estonia.
Yes, evil fascist Estonians gave Russians typhus!
Let's put you in a camp, with no fuel, food, warm clothing and medication and see how long will you last.
And seriously, Estonians have never deported anyone. Where do you get those silly ideas? Soviet history books?
LOL
You believe they were sympathetic to the whites?
Anyway, do you know ho Guchkov was? That's what he wrote to Chirchill: "... massive deportations of Russian citizens from Estonia without any explanations and even without prior warning. Russian people in theses provinces are deprived of their rights, defenceless and helpless."
Out of 2538 requests to get residence permit only 150 were granted!
The Estonians whose direct ancestors have lived here since the ice shield receded over this area can claim this land before anyone else! That you have once or twice taken this land by force is no basis for anything except your weird imperialistic dreams.
You're wrong. Direct ancestors of Estonians have come to what's now Estonia from the other side of the Ural mountains during a small ice age and replaced ancestors of Slavs.
Maybe Russian rule over Finnic areas is also illegal?
It's recognized by international law, not by an illegal deal with murderers.
Use your common sense - when the peace treaty was signed there was no question about who was in charge of Russia!
That's your problem. You don't differentiate between LAW and POWER.
Since 1721, when it was ceded to Russia by Sweden acc. to the Nystad treaty, Estonia was Russian. After that there were not any legal arrangements about Estonia.
And that's what you base Estonia belonging to Russia upon?
Baltic Germans were in charge here pretty much throughout all foreign rules, be it Danish, Swedish, Teutonic Order, the short-lived Poland-Lithuania or Russian Empire. They didn't like the Swedish rule, though because the Swedes started to abolish their power, the Russians on the other hand reinstated that. Maybe they have more basis to claim Estland? :p
Now, there is a big difference between a 1721 treaty where both sides actually had taken the land by force, or continually inhabiting the area since 10,000BC, I'll get to that below.
Let's put you in a camp, with no fuel, food, warm clothing and medication and see how long will you last.
The NW army command had the responsibility for their well-being. Those were quarantine camps and Estonians did start to treat them but only later when the NW army command gave that responsibility over to us.
You believe they were sympathetic to the whites?
I doubt that but they were unsympathetic to any nationalism or perhaps our nationality as a whole. They could have used anything to show us in a bad light and then show the "positive" transformation which the Soviet "liberators" brought.
You're wrong. Direct ancestors of Estonians have come to what's now Estonia from the other side of the Ural mountains during a small ice age and replaced ancestors of Slavs.
You are the one who is wrong!
The first people here, right after the ice age, represented the people of the Kunda culture. Their language is probably some unknown proto-European language, or some researchers (like Kalevi Wiik) presume that already their language was Finno-Ugric. Indo-European languages had not even reached Europe!
The second wave was the Comb Ceramic culture which is commonly associated with the Finno-Ugrics. The Ural theory is outdated, archeological evidence doesn't back that up. And geneticists also believe the haplogroup associated with Finno-Ugrics rather went from Europe to the Urals, not the other way around as the haplogroup varies more (and is thus older) in Europe. Black Sea area is a very likely place of origin. The original inhabitants assimilated with them.
The third wave was Corded Ware culture which brought Indo-European speech here. Those who came spoke proto-Baltic and possibly proto-Germanic languages - as evidenced by the loanwords from those languages. The IE speakers assimilated with Finnic speakers. Only then came contacts with Slavs migrating North but they have never inhabited this land as a majority. That's just an insane thing to claim.
It's recognized by international law, not by an illegal deal with murderers.
And the independence of Estonia is not recognized by international law?
That's your problem. You don't differentiate between LAW and POWER.
As entire Russia was under Bolshevik rule, who else could have we made peace with? We weren't going to overthrow them for the Whites just to start defending ourselves from them. We didn't have the means of accomplishing anything like that.
And that's what you base Estonia belonging to Russia upon?
Yeah, it's called international law.
Baltic Germans were in charge here pretty much throughout all foreign rules, be it Danish, Swedish, Teutonic Order, the short-lived Poland-Lithuania or Russian Empire. They didn't like the Swedish rule, though because the Swedes started to abolish their power, the Russians on the other hand reinstated that. Maybe they have more basis to claim Estland?
You're right in one thing: the fututre of Estonia is decided by anybody but Estonians. It was always so, it is so and it will ever be so.
The NW army command had the responsibility for their well-being.
Did it give Estonians the right to steal the supplies of the NW white army? THOUSANDS of carriages with food, clothing and ammunition...
You are the one who is wrong!
The first people here, right after the ice age, represented the people of the Kunda culture.
OK
The second wave was the Comb Ceramic culture which is commonly associated with the Finno-Ugrics.
That was your ancestors pouring into Northenr Europe from the Urals region and repalcing aboriginal Eastern Europeans.
The Ural theory is outdated, archeological evidence doesn't back that up. And geneticists also believe the haplogroup associated with Finno-Ugrics rather went from Europe to the Urals, not the other way around as the haplogroup varies more (and is thus older) in Europe.
LMAO
No, laddie, you're wrong. While it's true that the FU N3 is Eastern European in origin, it's ancestral haplogroup N is from the other side of the Urals.
And the independence of Estonia is not recognized by international law?
So was the "occupation".
As entire Russia was under Bolshevik rule, who else could have we made peace with?
Stop bullshitting people, please. Only a very, very small part of Russia was under the Bolshevik control when you conspired with these murderers to bring Russia and Russian people down. Most of Russia was controlled by internationally recognized government of Kolchak, and part of this government, the NW army, you betrayed to get your independence right in time when Bolsheviks were doomed. You actually rescued them. All they had at Petrograd was a 40-60 thousand stong bands with little miltary training. The 15 thousand strong NW white army was successfully dealing with them, and, without doubt, 80 odd more thousands of Estonian soldiers could have decided the Bolshevik question. Instead you made the deal with the devil, and now cry and whine about the "occupation"...
Yeah, it's called international law.
Wake up! The Russian Empire ceased to exist and now the Soviet Union has ceased to exist.
You're right in one thing: the fututre of Estonia is decided by anybody but Estonians. It was always so, it is so and it will ever be so.
It hasn't been always so. Right before the Northern Crusades the ancestors of Estonians were pretty much in charge of their lands. Arrival of Christianity pretty much decided the future for our people for many centuries, luckily it weren't the Russians but the Germans (we all know how many Finnic people in Russia ended up). Though Estonian people are not very religious anymore, Lutheranism and much of what we define Estonian culture is directly or indirectly influenced by the Germanic Western European sphere. And as Samuel Huntington put us and Russia to different civilizations because of that difference in mentality, and broadly speaking, argued that this is the prime reason for clashes between civilizations. Estonians were not so keen on adopting communism as many Russians unfortunately were. But, you know, we are in control of our country don't try to think otherwise.
Did it give Estonians the right to steal the supplies of the NW white army? THOUSANDS of carriages with food, clothing and ammunition...
Western Allies supported the dissolution of the NW army, and NW army command itself knew that it wasn't going to achieve anything anymore with its disease-ridden troops and demanded disarmament.
That was your ancestors pouring into Northenr Europe from the Urals region and repalcing aboriginal Eastern Europeans.
They didn't replace them but assimilated them. Just like Russians assimilated Finno-Ugrics. By the way, only a third of Estonians carry that haplogroup, not that it makes any difference to being Europids.
No, laddie, you're wrong. While it's true that the FU N3 is Eastern European in origin, it's ancestral haplogroup N is from the other side of the Urals.
And then we all come from Africa! :rolleyes:
Stop bullshitting people, please. Only a very, very small part of Russia was under the Bolshevik control when you conspired with these murderers to bring Russia and Russian people down. Most of Russia was controlled by internationally recognized government of Kolchak, and part of this government, the NW army, you betrayed to get your independence right in time when Bolsheviks were doomed.
We got our independence in 1920 when the Tartu Peace Treaty was signed. Not before, not when the front was near Petrograd in 1919. And even there Estonians made no deal with the Bolsheviks! For what? We were in war with them right until the treaty was signed and the White army had pretty much been rendered incapable for warfare by typhus and disorganization, not Estonians taking their weapons.
Sventovit
11-20-2009, 07:45 AM
Well, it took a while to click, but OF COURSE: Hors is the very same old troll which us old-timers still recall as Ross. A brief double-check of his old Skadi profile heralds this without much doubt.
In three years since he was booted from Skadi, he has not changed one lot: Greater-Russian imperialism from an inferiority complex, a notorious need to prove that Russians are at large Nordish, and an ethnicity randomly chosen to take his anger out on.
There is no "need" to prove anything. Anthropologists, both Western and Russian are decades in agreement that Russians (of all regional types) are essentially, and predominantly, a North Europid population. Certain Austrian German populations, on the other hand, have a North Europid component equal to or lesser than that of Serbs:
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6977/jugotypedistirbutionpa6.jpg
So an Austrian priding himself in his 'Nordishness' vis-a-vis Russians is sort of like a Congolese calling a Frenchman a wog.
Sventovit
11-20-2009, 08:01 AM
In the few years that we have been independent since 1991, we have invented and created LOTS of things
And you are lying on industrial production output ---- after my country became free again early 1990ies we had much success and our economy boomed more than ever when we was suppressed by USSR! !
I am sure that, your raging Russophobia notwithstanding, you both are perfectly nice folks in real life, but I must inform you that when arguing against people like Hors, with a high verbal IQ and a graduate education, you are very much out of your depth. It's almost painful watching you try to play catch up - reminds me of some girl studying for a nursing degree at a no-name community college in Boston who gets drunk at a frat party, wakes up in the middle of a lecture, and finds out in shock that she is actually in the middle of a lecture on differential geometry at MIT, and the professor has just called on her to answer the problem on the board.
Inese
11-20-2009, 12:36 PM
I am sure that, your raging Russophobia notwithstanding, you both are perfectly nice folks in real life, but I must inform you that when arguing against people like Hors, with a high verbal IQ and a graduate education, you are very much out of your depth. It's almost painful watching you try to play catch up - reminds me of some girl studying for a nursing degree at a no-name community college in Boston who gets drunk at a frat party, wakes up in the middle of a lecture, and finds out in shock that she is actually in the middle of a lecture on differential geometry at MIT, and the professor has just called on her to answer the problem on the board.
You dont know me and do you think it is a wonder?? I am discussing in my second foreign language with him and i am a student and much younger as Hors!! :rolleyes: I tell you, let us discuss it in Latvian or German language and i will give you a better impression! You think i sound low educated if i write in English but it does not stop me to write my opinion okay?? And my question to you is what do you know about the Russian problems in Latvia please?? :coffee: Have you visited Latvia to see what Russian people do here with our people and country?? No!?? Hm making a opinion from over-sea is not very high educated also! Could you find Latvia on a map without looking before? If you want to be ignorant please dont post in the Latvian board thank you
Sventovit
11-20-2009, 01:12 PM
The problem is not that you sound uneducated (and if you really are studying at a Latvian University at the moment your level of English comprehension certainly appears to be a testament to the rapidly dropping standard of education in Latvia after the brain-drain of the intellectual elite of the country, which was in Soviet times always predominantly ethnic Russian, in pre-Soviet times, German), but that you sound, for lack of a kinder description, like an emotionally unstable teenage girl of below-average intelligence.
You dont know me and do you think it is a wonder?? I am discussing in my second foreign language with him and i am a student and much younger as Hors!! :rolleyes: I tell you, let us discuss it in Latvian or German language and i will give you a better impression! You think i sound low educated if i write in English but it does not stop me to write my opinion okay?? And my question to you is what do you know about the Russian problems in Latvia please?? :coffee: Have you visited Latvia to see what Russian people do here with our people and country?? No!?? Hm making a opinion from over-sea is not very high educated also! Could you find Latvia on a map without looking before? If you want to be ignorant please dont post in the Latvian board thank you
What I know about the "Russian problem" is that the Russians practically built the infrastructure and industry out of almost nothing, funding everything with Russian, not Latvian, money. As an ethnos, the Latvians have virtually no intellectual creativity, which is in order to get anything done in Latvia - build Riga, for instance, an intellectual elite had to be imported from somewhere. Until Soviet times the intellectual elite were ethnic Germans. After Soviet times, the German elite was replaced by an ethnic Russian one. The problem was that the Soviets imported a proletariat along with the elite, and now the Latvian proletariat vents its frustrations and feelings of inferiority on Russians which no longer have neither their elite, nor Moscow to defend them.
What's funny is that Latvians and other Balts (with the exception of Finns, who actually have some brains) recognize that they are more or less intellectual 'drones'. In fact, the poverty of Latvian (as well as Estonian, but let's not go there) contributions to science and culture is so severe that not even the Latvians' all-consuming hatred towards Russians stops them from claiming accomplished ethnic Russian scientists who happened to be born in Latvia (or happened to live in Latvia for a while) as "famous ethnic Latvian scientists." Whenever you see someone whose racial condition is not to your liking, he's got to be a Russian, however. L-O-L.
The Lawspeaker
11-20-2009, 01:13 PM
Hello Hors :)
Sventovit
11-20-2009, 01:43 PM
Hello Hors :)
Quick someone tell Loki to ban Hors for registering a sockpuppet account!:D
It's like the old skadi hysteria all over again - anyone who doesn't agree that Russians are mongrel subhumans is obviously a sockpuppet of the same semi-mythical troll, Ross.
In terms of wit you most certainly leave something to be desired, Asega... It's not that fun to engage in debate with an opponent when I can wipe the floor using said opponent as mop with my right hand tied behind my back. :(
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