Norway vs US Prison System

[Phil75231]

From the political talk show The Young Turks (center-left / progressive orientation). Ends with a thoughtful question to ponder.

wgHdGr4aQoU

[BeerBaron]

Oh god, not The Young Turks :rolleyes:, watch those idiots interview with the head of American Renaissance for a real laugh.

[rhiannon]

From the political talk show The Young Turks (center-left / progressive orientation). Ends with a thoughtful question to ponder.

wgHdGr4aQoU

Dude, that is the cleanest jail cell I have ever seen. LOL!

[Phil75231]

Dude, that is the cleanest jail cell I have ever seen. LOL!

My college dorm rooms weren't THAT nice! Well, take part of that back. We did have separate rooms for toilets.

[rhiannon]

That freaking cell looks cleaner than some hotel rooms I've seen:(

Tells me something...

[Phil75231]

Still, watch the video and listen to what they say. There's a double-edge sword here, based on Norway's much lower crime rates and recidivism rates. I'm not saying their prisons should be THIS nice, but..well, if you saw the video you know what I mean.

[rhiannon]

Still, watch the video and listen to what they say. There's a double-edge sword here, based on Norway's much lower crime rates and recidivism rates. I'm not saying their prisons should be THIS nice, but..well, if you saw the video you know what I mean.

I will as soon as my Gothic/Industrial musicthon is over:)

[SilverKnight]

US prisons make me sick, seeing how they look like on tv or on the internet compare to Norwegian prisons, we're far behind them. There's more money being spent on US prisons then public education:confused:.



Washington spends about $6,500 per student on public education. That sounds like a decent number until you compare it with the amount spent on each prison inmate in the state which averages $34,500, according to budget records http://mynorthwest.com/646/550381/Spending-more-on-prisons-than-schools.

[Hevneren]

From the political talk show The Young Turks (center-left / progressive orientation). Ends with a thoughtful question to ponder.

wgHdGr4aQoU

Yes, I saw this some months ago, after the predictable Norway-bashing from the American far right after July 22, when Glenn Beck compared the massacred young people to the Hitler Youth and Fox News insisted on talking about Al Qaeda even after the perpetrator was caught and was known through the media.

[Arrow Cross]

This is a prison, weaklings.

xetDFcbmpow

[Contra Mundum]

According to Young Turks, the US has a violent crime rate almost 10 times higher than Norway, then they claim the reason the incarceration rate is 10 times higher in the US is because the prisons are privately run and they lobby politicians to pass stronger laws to increase the prison population, but isn't the prison population larger in the US because the violent crime rate is so much higher? Besides, where is the evidence privately run prisons are lobbying for stronger laws? The prisons are so overcrowded, several states have early release programs for non-violent offenders. I don't see the incentive to increase the prison population when they are already overcrowded. It wasn't prisons who demanded stronger anti crime laws, it was the American people screaming for it because crime was so out of control. After they started locking up more and more people, crime nosedived. Young Turks isn't looking at this objectively.


As far as the quality of prisons go, it's probably easier to maintain nice prisons in a wealthy country like Norway with very few prisoners. If it were as diverse as America, it's prison population it would increase dramatically and would be more difficult to maintain such clean prisons.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Most prisons in the US are not privately run, it's only a few states which have it partially privatized, mainly for low level offenders.


There's more money being spent on US prisons then public education:confused:.

That's thanks to the courts who have mandates certain living standards for the prisons. If we could just pack them all in, like in most countries in the world, it would not cost nearly so much. Also in some states, the prison guards are paid a huge amount of money, in California they all make 6-figure incomes.


Still, watch the video and listen to what they say. There's a double-edge sword here, based on Norway's much lower crime rates and recidivism rates. I'm not saying their prisons should be THIS nice, but..well, if you saw the video you know what I mean.

I think if prison sucked more, a lot less people would want to go there. For middle class white people, the thought of prison sounds horrible, and something to be avoided at all costs. For members of the mostly black & hispanic underclass, it's not such a big deal, just something that happens as a normal fact of life, you go to prison for 18 months or so, this usually adds a status roughly equivalent to military service for middle class whites. "Yo dawg, I jus go' outa prison, was in fo' 18 month"

[rhiannon]

It seems counter-intuitive to me that the higher quality of Norwegian prisons would somehow result in lower recidivism rates. I would like to see Hevneren and Pallantides give a little more input on the issue?

[Phil75231]

It seems counter-intuitive to me that the higher quality of Norwegian prisons would somehow result in lower recidivism rates. I would like to see Hevneren and Pallantides give a little more input on the issue?

It may or may not be true that higher quality prisons --> Lower incarceration rates. However, other options could be

a) reversed causal relationship lower recidivism rates --> less inhibition for having nicer prison cells
b) a third factor some underlying factor causes, encourages, and/or doesn't discourage the simultaneous presence of nice prisons and low recidivism.
c) spurious correlation there's no real relationship between recidivism rate and prison "niceness"

[Supreme American]

Young Turks. Puke.

How can anyone compare the Norwegian prison system to the US? Norway isn't choked with black and Mexican gangbangers and daily prison race riots. Oh God.

[rhiannon]

It may or may not be true that higher quality prisons --> Lower incarceration rates. However, other options could be

a) reversed causal relationship lower recidivism rates --> less inhibition for having nicer prison cells
b) a third factor some underlying factor causes, encourages, and/or doesn't discourage the simultaneous presence of nice prisons and low recidivism.
c) spurious correlation there's no real relationship between recidivism rate and prison "niceness"

Phil, you always give a great analysis. I like the way you think:) Makes a lot of sense to me!

[rhiannon]

Young Turks. Puke.

How can anyone compare the Norwegian prison system to the US? Norway isn't choked with black and Mexican gangbangers and daily prison race riots. Oh God.

:rolleyes:

[Hevneren]

It seems counter-intuitive to me that the higher quality of Norwegian prisons would somehow result in lower recidivism rates. I would like to see Hevneren and Pallantides give a little more input on the issue?


I don't know, but I've heard that Norwegian prisons aren't as much of a "recruitment ground" for additional criminal activity, as in some other countries. There's a "drug culture" in many prisons, and the inmates get recruited into hardcore criminal gangs and syndicates, and this something Norway wants to avoid.

Another aspect is the programmes - both in prison and after sentencing - that seek to make these people citizens who can hold a job, rather than criminals. The Norwegian prison system focuses a lot on rehabilitation, at least for non-violent and "lower level" criminals.

Last but not least, is the nature of the crimes committed. Norway's homicide rate is a fraction of the US homicide rate, with Norway's prison population consisting mainly of low level drug dealers/users, DUI offenders, low level thieves and robbers and people arrested for drunken brawls (bottle to the face etc.). It might just be a guess, but I'd think someone arrested for DUI or drunken brawls is more likely to be law abiding upon release than a child molester, rapist or mass murderer.

[rhiannon]

I don't know, but I've heard that Norwegian prisons aren't as much of a "recruitment ground" for additional criminal activity, as in some other countries. There's a "drug culture" in many prisons, and the inmates get recruited into hardcore criminal gangs and syndicates, and this something Norway wants to avoid.

Another aspect is the programmes - both in prison and after sentencing - that seek to make these people citizens who can hold a job, rather than criminals. The Norwegian prison system focuses a lot on rehabilitation, at least for non-violent and "lower level" criminals.

Last but not least, is the nature of the crimes committed. Norway's homicide rate is a fraction of the US homicide rate, with Norway's prison population consisting mainly of low level drug dealers/users, DUI offenders, low level thieves and robbers and people arrested for drunken brawls (bottle to the face etc.). It might just be a guess, but I'd think someone arrested for DUI or drunken brawls is more likely to be law abiding upon release than a child molester, rapist or mass murderer.

I agree with that last paragraph. Of course, the local SFers on here are immediately gonna blame the US's greater rates of homicide solely on anyone but the White Man. Ugh. No one sees the obvious: Our rates are way higher in part because it seems no one can get along:rolleyes2:

I know there is a favorable argument to be made in there somewhere on behalf of homogenous societies...but the fact is, the US will NEVER be one such society, and it would behoove ALL of us to just learn the art of getting along and abiding by the motto of *Live and Let Live*

The rabid hatred people tend to get themselves consumed by when it comes to matters of Xenophobia certainly contributes greatly to the problems faced by my country:(

[Odoacer]

I agree with that last paragraph. Of course, the local SFers on here are immediately gonna blame the US's greater rates of homicide solely on anyone but the White Man. Ugh. No one sees the obvious: Our rates are way higher in part because it seems no one can get along:rolleyes2:

I'm not a Stormfronter, byrnecres. Why do you suppose people can't get along? It's certainly not because they're too much alike, is it?


I know there is a favorable argument to be made in there somewhere on behalf of homogenous societies...but the fact is, the US will NEVER be one such society, and it would behoove ALL of us to just learn the art of getting along and abiding by the motto of *Live and Let Live*

We WERE such a society, for the most part, just 40 years ago. We could have continued to be had it not been for the Immigration Act of 1965. That was a watershed moment, far more so than even the Civil Rights Act, IMO. The new sources of immigration have transformed our demographic situation very rapidly over the past few decades, although of course that's been heavily augmented by illegal immigration from Mexico.


The rabid hatred people tend to get themselves consumed by when it comes to matters of Xenophobia certainly contributes greatly to the problems faced by my country:(

Which explains why blacks - who aren't foreign - have the highest rates of criminal activity of all ethnic groups in the US? This is due to xenophobia? Or white racism?

[rhiannon]

I'm not a Stormfronter, byrnecres. Why do you suppose people can't get along? It's certainly not because they're too much alike, is it?
Hence the xenophobia reference in my post.



We WERE such a society, for the most part, just 40 years ago. We could have continued to be had it not been for the Immigration Act of 1965. That was a watershed moment, far more so than even the Civil Rights Act, IMO. The new sources of immigration have transformed our demographic situation very rapidly over the past few decades, although of course that's been heavily augmented by illegal immigration from Mexico.

Bollocks. (another lovely European colloquialism that has grown on me since joining here, lol).

We had imported African slaves long before that, and after they became free, we denied them their FULL rights as human beings...as manifested by the Separate but (not) Equal segregation of the Jim Crow South. Our society was not homogenous then, either.

Now, You may have a point on the Immigration issue, however...but even prior to that we were not a homogenous society by any means. Tell an Italian that they are the same as an Irishman and see how they react to THAT one;) As well, take a good look at the East Coast Ethnic Enclaves. We were never homogenous. Moreover, we were never to be a homogenous nation even as white settlers first arrived on the shores of this continent...to be greeted by the American Indian.

I do believe your visions of homogeneity for this country are nothing if not fanciful illusion. :)


Which explains why blacks - who aren't foreign - have the highest rates of criminal activity of all ethnic groups in the US? This is due to xenophobia? Or white racism?You won't like my full answer. One thought:

Justice can and IS bought in this country....it's just mostly whites that are doing the buying. This is only a partial explanation, mind you, and there are plenty of black law-abiding citizens in this country....just as their are plenty of white criminals. Blacks make up less than 16% of our total population....they just don't have the raw numbers to be held solely accountable for our murder statistics

[SwordoftheVistula]

I agree with that last paragraph. Of course, the local SFers on here are immediately gonna blame the US's greater rates of homicide solely on anyone but the White Man.

That's because blacks and hispanics have much, much higher crime rates than whites. Asians have even lower crime rates than whites, except when it comes to gang-related crime.


http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.



The rabid hatred people tend to get themselves consumed by when it comes to matters of Xenophobia certainly contributes greatly to the problems faced by my country:(

Got any proof? From what I have seen, 'hate crimes' are a tiny majority of crimes committed.



I don't know, but I've heard that Norwegian prisons aren't as much of a "recruitment ground" for additional criminal activity, as in some other countries. There's a "drug culture" in many prisons, and the inmates get recruited into hardcore criminal gangs and syndicates, and this something Norway wants to avoid.

That's probably true. In most of our states and our federal prison system, basically any state with more than 10% nonwhites, nonwhites make up such a large portion of the prison population that whites are forced to join white prison gangs for protection from the black and hispanic prison gangs.



Another aspect is the programmes - both in prison and after sentencing - that seek to make these people citizens who can hold a job, rather than criminals. The Norwegian prison system focuses a lot on rehabilitation, at least for non-violent and "lower level" criminals.

Last but not least, is the nature of the crimes committed. Norway's homicide rate is a fraction of the US homicide rate, with Norway's prison population consisting mainly of low level drug dealers/users, DUI offenders, low level thieves and robbers and people arrested for drunken brawls (bottle to the face etc.). It might just be a guess, but I'd think someone arrested for DUI or drunken brawls is more likely to be law abiding upon release than a child molester, rapist or mass murderer.

Most of our white prison population is young people arrested for low-level & non-gang related drug offenses, drunken brawls, low level thieves, and DUI. At the federal level, financial offenses like tax evasion, embezzlement, and non-gang related drug offenses. These people go to minimum or maybe medium security prisons, and I think there is a low level of recidivism for them, and they are typically nicer and less strict than the ones you see on TV shows, which are the maximum security prisons. The gangs are in the maximum security prisons.

Maximum security prisons usually have people convicted of serious crimes (armed robbery, serious assaults, murder) and gang members. These people are overwhelmingly black and hispanic.

[Hevneren]

No offence to any posters on here (Byrnecres especially), but I find that a lot of the time when Americans bring up factoids about other countries, the other (foreign) country is used in a partisan type of debate with a lot of emotions on both sides, and often the country in question is used as a punching bag by one side and as an excuse for an agenda by the other side. Basically, it turns into a Republican/Democrat or right vs left debate. I hope to not see that here. :)

[Contra Mundum]

The US for most of its history was overwhelmingly of European descent. At least 83% with the only sizable minority being African. The European population peaked at around 87 to 88% by 1960. The African population declined as a percentage in the 20th century down to around 11 or 12% at one point. Other groups like American Indians, Mexicans mestizos and East Asians were a tiny percentage of the overall population. Most Mexicans who lived in the Western US in the 19th century were actually of Spanish descent and included in the white European population. Mestizos arrived in larger numbers in the 20th century but nearly all of them were illegals. Eisenhower deported most of them in the 1950s. They didn't start arriving in large numbers as legal immigrants until the 1970s.

If the US was settled and founded by a non-western group it wouldn't have become the open and free society it is today. As the white population continues to decline as it is now and doing so quite rapidly, the country will change and become more like the 3rd world countries these new immigrants escaped from. The US was built into a global powerhouse by European immigrants. They are the reason this country is so great. Blacks and other groups were elevated to a much higher level because of the large European majority. Blacks benefited by being a minority. If they were the majority, the US would much poorer and corrupt and other minority groups as well as blacks would be living under a murderous dictatorship.

[rhiannon]

No offence to any posters on here (Byrnecres especially), but I find that a lot of the time when Americans bring up factoids about other countries, the other (foreign) country is used in a partisan type of debate with a lot of emotions on both sides, and often the country in question is used as a punching bag by one side and as an excuse for an agenda by the other side. Basically, it turns into a Republican/Democrat or right vs left debate. I hope to not see that here. :)

Aw Hev...only out of deference to your request. )

The claims that being spewed on this thread make it hard, however.

I hope you understand.

:taped-shut:

[Odoacer]

Hence the xenophobia reference in my post.

"Xenophobia" isn't the reason blacks & whites don't get along well. Blacks & whites have been around each other in this country from the start. If "xenophobia" is why Mexicans & whites don't get along well, then this "xenophobia" is essentially a universal phenomenon in human societies, & you are foolish to think that it will ever go away without doing away with the differences that exist between different racial & ethnic groups in the US. Large groups of people who do not share the same heritage & culture never really get along very well when they are stepping on each other's turf.


We had imported African slaves long before that, and after they became free, we denied them their FULL rights as human beings...as manifested by the Separate but (not) Equal segregation of the Jim Crow South. Our society was not homogenous then, either.

Blacks were the ONLY significant minority, & they never exceeded 20% of the population (that only in the early years of the Republic). By the Centennial, they were about 13% of the population. In 1930, they were only 9.7% (the historical low). And in 1970, they were only 11.1%. Moreover, they were confined largely to the South & urban areas, with very low numbers elsewhere. Even today, the only significant populations of blacks you see outside the South are in major metropolitan areas.


Now, You may have a point on the Immigration issue, however...but even prior to that we were not a homogenous society by any means. Tell an Italian that they are the same as an Irishman and see how they react to THAT one;) As well, take a good look at the East Coast Ethnic Enclaves. We were never homogenous. Moreover, we were never to be a homogenous nation even as white settlers first arrived on the shores of this continent...to be greeted by the American Indian.

The problem of people holding onto their Old World ethnic identities is part of why we had the Immigration Act of 1924. Anyway, once you moved away from the ethnic enclaves of the Eastern cities, people begin to identify primarily as white Americans pretty quickly. My Irish & Italian ancestors were well-integrated into white American culture in the West. They didn't deny or hide their ancestry, but they also didn't self-indentify as "Irish-American" or "Italian-American." They were American, simply. The Indians were never really part of the nation, except in very small numbers. They were admitted as citizens en masse in 1924, but by then, the demographic damage to their populations had been done. They've been on the periphery ever since.


I do believe your visions of homogeneity for this country are nothing if not fanciful illusion. :)

Funny, that's exactly what I think of your utopian visions of a multicultural paradise. :wink


You won't like my full answer. One thought:

Justice can and IS bought in this country....it's just mostly whites that are doing the buying. This is only a partial explanation, mind you, and there are plenty of black law-abiding citizens in this country....just as their are plenty of white criminals. Blacks make up less than 16% of our total population....they just don't have the raw numbers to be held solely accountable for our murder statistics

From 1974-2004, black perpetrators accounted for 52% of all murders in the US, & black victims accounted for 47%. In the same period, they were never more than 13% of the total US population. These rates are insanely out of proportion to their share of the population. And they certainly do have the "raw numbers" to be accountable for this share of our murder statistics. Your "partial explanation" doesn't even begin to account for the huge gap between black & white rates of offense & victimhood.