Celto-Germanic vs Balto-Slavic vs Celto-Romance vs Indo-Iranic

[black hole]

https://i.postimg.cc/fZcC2y2p/A-large-blank-world-map-with-oceans-marked-in-blue.png




Choose the Indo-European societies where you would feel comfortable to live in.


https://traversewithtaylor.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Untitled-design-2023-02-19T215858.007.jpg

https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/russian-orthodox-church-in-the-cold-winter-snow-drifts-village-zaostrovie-arkhangelsk-region_323283-5803.jpg

https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/0a/8c/67/71.jpg

https://d2rdhxfof4qmbb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/20180803145216/Sun-Temple-Konark-Orissa-India.jpg

[Katarzyna]

I think India and Iran are very nice countries I definitively want to go there once. They have very good food.

[tk'es]

definitely indo-iranic.. we are closer to each other in all respects

[ecptr]

'Celto-Germanic' is a fake group invented by Celts who want to be in the same group as Germanics. No such thing exists or ever existed.

Celto-Romance group is real but the correct name is Italo-Celtic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

[rothaer]

https://traversewithtaylor.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Untitled-design-2023-02-19T215858.007.jpg

https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/russian-orthodox-church-in-the-cold-winter-snow-drifts-village-zaostrovie-arkhangelsk-region_323283-5803.jpg

https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/0a/8c/67/71.jpg

https://d2rdhxfof4qmbb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/20180803145216/Sun-Temple-Konark-Orissa-India.jpg

I must remark that the architecture proxy for Balto-Slavic is violating my sense for aesthetics. I've hardly ever seen such a misshaped building. It's depressive (to me) and as "beautiful" as a Fiat Multipla:

https://i.imgur.com/lA5EHxv.jpg

[Etelfrido]

I believe all of them except Indo-Iranic.

[cass]

https://i.postimg.cc/fZcC2y2p/A-large-blank-world-map-with-oceans-marked-in-blue.png




Choose the Indo-European societies where you would feel comfortable to live in.


https://traversewithtaylor.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Untitled-design-2023-02-19T215858.007.jpg

https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/russian-orthodox-church-in-the-cold-winter-snow-drifts-village-zaostrovie-arkhangelsk-region_323283-5803.jpg

https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/0a/8c/67/71.jpg

https://d2rdhxfof4qmbb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/20180803145216/Sun-Temple-Konark-Orissa-India.jpg

We have nothing to do with the Byzantine world.

https://img.dorzeczy.pl/img/zamek-w-bobolicach/8d/85/1d69ea804453295bf8b2afa938da.jpeg

[cass]

Even Lukashenko abandoned plans to convert the Radziwił palace in Neswiez into a Byzantine style

https://polonika.pl/upload/thumb/2020/08/nieswiez-zamek-7-w-trakcie-renowacji-wikimedia_auto_1400x800.jpg

https://img.freepik.com/premium-zdjecie/letni-zamek-w-nieswiezu-w-miescie-nieswiez-bialorus_217593-9314.jpg?w=1060

[Voskos]

Even Lukashenko abandoned plans to convert the Radziwił palace in Neswiez into a Byzantine styl

I considered it a Polish achievement against the Byzantine invading armies.Clearly.

[Dušan]

Balto-Slavic not, only Balkano-Slavic.

[black hole]

I think India and Iran are very nice countries I definitively want to go there once. They have very good food.



So what is your choice?





definitely indo-iranic.. we are closer to each other in all respects


It makes sense.





I must remark that the architecture proxy for Balto-Slavic is violating my sense for aesthetics. I've hardly ever seen such a misshaped building. It's depressive (to me) and as "beautiful" as a Fiat Multipla:

https://i.imgur.com/lA5EHxv.jpg



Only in your German eyes our building looks depressive.

[tk'es]

It makes sense.






from eastern caucasus to subcontinent, we are under the same cultural umbrella

[Dušan]

I must remark that the architecture proxy for Balto-Slavic is violating my sense for aesthetics. I've hardly ever seen such a misshaped building. It's depressive (to me) and as "beautiful" as a Fiat Multipla:

https://i.imgur.com/lA5EHxv.jpg

This is recently built Russian-style church in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Nothing depressed, but magnificient.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUR8L9Hqmw

[cass]

This is recently built Russian-style church in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Nothing depressed, but magnificient.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUR8L9Hqmw

De gustibus non est disputandum.

[Voskos]

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Now you speak Latin, you shapeshifting Polish scammer? I thought you weren't Byzantine (aka Eastern Roman).

You are a filthy Pagan.

[cass]

Now you speak Latin, you shapeshifting Polish scammer? I thought you weren't Byzantine (aka Eastern Roman).

You are a filthy Pagan.

Latin is one of the foundations of western culture.

[Dušan]

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Here is one also golden-domed, but in Balkan-Byzantine style, also in Republika Srpska.

I cant decide who is more beautiful. :amour101:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fScrc_NkD0Y

[Voskos]

Latin is one of the foundations of western culture.

Poland is one of the foundations of American culture.

[cass]

Poland is one of the foundations of American culture.

In your own way, you're accidentally right.
The elective system of ruler was copied by the Americans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpidKhvrHoo

[Voskos]

In your own way, you're accidentally right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpidKhvrHoo

You're just the immigrant cleaning the british shoe and fighting against your own kin to please master. Remember that. Remember these words coming from a random person.

[true_southron]

Here is one also golden-domed, but in Balkan-Byzantine style, also in Republika Srpska.

I cant decide who is more beautiful. :amour101:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fScrc_NkD0Y

Honestly, I prefer older style architecture. This looks too foreign and immodest. For the same reason I prefer when the interior (the frescos background) are painted in blue rather than golden/yellow.

This style:
https://www.srbijapodlupom.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/241103035_372881554276706_8248779170008393370_n.jp g

[thatoneton]

Another strange post made by a Russian user - maybe that would pass in a Russian propaganda TV but in reality Russia is only joined with Belarus and Kazakhstan - noone else wants to have any close ties with it. And subsuming Poland under the crappy eastern architecture must be a joke.

Here's a couple of examples of Polish architecture:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Branicki_Palace_in_Bia%C5%82ystok.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Wawel_Royal_Castle_courtyard_%28SE%29%2C_4_Wawel%2 C_Old_Town%2C_Krakow%2C_Poland.jpg

https://i2.wp.com/wielkopolska.travel/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/5138.jpg?fit=3500%2C2333&ssl=1

Also there is no such a division of Indo-European languages as "Celto-Germanic", but according to some linguists there is "Balto-Germano-Slavic" though it is not accepted today.

[cass]

You're just the immigrant cleaning the british shoe and fighting against your own kin to please master. Remember that. Remember these words coming from a random person.

I have never been an immigrant. On the contrary, I employ workers from this country.

[Dušan]

Honestly, I prefer older style architecture. This looks too foreign and immodest. For the same reason I prefer when the interior (the frescos background) are painted in blue rather than golden/yellow.

This style:
https://www.srbijapodlupom.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/241103035_372881554276706_8248779170008393370_n.jp g

I like both.
And I dont think it looks foreign.

[Katarzyna]

You find older and younger architecture everywhere in Europe
https://i.ibb.co/zmMm87D/IMG-3970.jpg (https://ibb.co/gr2rvPh)

[reboun]

Celto-Romance because my lifestyle is more similar to them than to the others.

[Voskos]

...

This architecture you posted as Polish looks Central European.

On the other hand, the Russian architecture looks Baltic.

According to you and cassimir Helsinki is classified as a Byzantine architecture.

I thought Poles are the slavic traitors, but I was wrong . They are simply insane.

[Katarzyna]

This architecture you posted as Polish looks Central European.

.

Oh really? Kurwa, Poland is Central Europe. No wonder xD

[noricum]

Can you add a Slavo-Germano-Celto-Romance option or a simple "Yes" to the poll for me?

[true_southron]

Another strange post made by a Russian user - maybe that would pass in a Russian propaganda TV but in reality Russia is only joined with Belarus and Kazakhstan - noone else wants to have any close ties with it. And subsuming Poland under the crappy eastern architecture must be a joke.

Here's a couple of examples of Polish architecture:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Branicki_Palace_in_Bia%C5%82ystok.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Wawel_Royal_Castle_courtyard_%28SE%29%2C_4_Wawel%2 C_Old_Town%2C_Krakow%2C_Poland.jpg

https://i2.wp.com/wielkopolska.travel/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/5138.jpg?fit=3500%2C2333&ssl=1

Also there is no such a division of Indo-European languages as "Celto-Germanic", but according to some linguists there is "Balto-Germano-Slavic" though it is not accepted today.

Looks cherry picked. Good deal of Poland falls within what the author of this thread labeled as Balto-Slavic.
Also, first picture from Bialystok looks more Russian-influenced

[cass]

Looks cherry picked. Good deal of Poland falls within what the author of this thread labeled as Balto-Slavic.
Also, first picture from Bialystok looks more Russian-influenced

Fortunately, you can travel without money

https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.0615475,19.9377482,3a,75y,64.48h,98.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sM0A60ah7br7XN5QV3wrP5A!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DM0A6 0ah7br7XN5QV3wrP5A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.g ps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D294.73572%26pitch%3 D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.010889,18.6047089,3a,75y,201.45h,108.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFmtRmob_cIgt5Z0dYXtq6w!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656?entry=ttu


My home region
https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.3357749,18.1909404,3a,75y,51.87h,94.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skqaX8MIKK-1ercUHbBjJVA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.6957458,17.5612463,3a,75y,145.49h,77.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssNF_t_HA9u1HwXPHq7eBaA!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DsNF_ t_HA9u1HwXPHq7eBaA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.g ps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D289.9744%26pitch%3D 0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.6019392,18.2389439,3a,75y,160.78h,104.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so7ck2TaoK-jub6YiOi2dFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.3483589,18.6538321,3a,75y,282.81h,102.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sntZCL9hQHoIq_FIvyx0Tow!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DntZC L9hQHoIq_FIvyx0Tow%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.g ps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D309.81717%26pitch%3 D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

[rothaer]

This is recently built Russian-style church in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Nothing depressed, but magnificient.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHUR8L9Hqmw

Yes, but you saw that I referred to another building? The church that you show is looking FAR nicer.

[thatoneton]

Looks cherry picked. Good deal of Poland falls within what the author of this thread labeled as Balto-Slavic.
Also, first picture from Bialystok looks more Russian-influenced

Really?

Kraków
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Sukiennice_and_Main_Market_Square_Krakow_Poland.JP G

Warszawa

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Rynek_Starego_Miasta_w_Warszawie_strona_Zakrzewski ego_2018.jpg

Poznań

https://meteor-turystyka.pl/images/places/0/135.jpg

Gdańsk

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Gda%C5%84sk%2C_D%C5%82ugi_Targ_%28HB1%29.jpg

Lublin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Lublin_-_trybuna%C5%82_%28stary_ratusz%29_z_g%C3%B3ry_gl.J PG

Wrocław

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Wroc%C5%82aw-RYNEK_-_panorama_z_ko%C5%9Bcio%C5%82a_p.w._%C5%9Bw._El%C5 %BCbiety_-_panoramio.jpg

BTW the palace you called "Russian looking" is a French-inspired Magnate residence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branicki_Palace,_Bia%C5%82ystok

[true_southron]

Fortunately, you can travel without money

https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.0615475,19.9377482,3a,75y,64.48h,98.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sM0A60ah7br7XN5QV3wrP5A!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DM0A6 0ah7br7XN5QV3wrP5A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.g ps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D294.73572%26pitch%3 D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.010889,18.6047089,3a,75y,201.45h,108.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFmtRmob_cIgt5Z0dYXtq6w!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656?entry=ttu


My home region
https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.3357749,18.1909404,3a,75y,51.87h,94.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skqaX8MIKK-1ercUHbBjJVA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
https://www.google.pl/maps/@53.6957458,17.5612463,3a,75y,145.49h,77.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssNF_t_HA9u1HwXPHq7eBaA!2e0!6sh ttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DsNF_ t_HA9u1HwXPHq7eBaA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.g ps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D289.9744%26pitch%3D 0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.6019392,18.2389439,3a,75y,160.78h,104.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1so7ck2TaoK-jub6YiOi2dFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

I paid a visit to couple of cities in Eastern and Central Poland, and a couple of times, not just once. Its ok. You don't need to convince me, I know what I saw :)

[cass]

The unsuitable occupation buildings were mostly demolished. Demolition of Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBoMdYWm3k

[true_southron]

The unsuitable occupation buildings were mostly demolished. Demolition of Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBoMdYWm3k

I know, prior to WW2 architecture of Poland was looking differently. However today it does not. Even some new living complex in smaller places gives you Russian vibes more so than German/Austrian vibe. Anyway, I think the best part of Poland are its people (those that actually live there).

[thatoneton]

The unsuitable occupation buildings were mostly demolished. Demolition of Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBoMdYWm3k

It existed for only 15 years, but was built as a symbol of subjugation of Poland by the Russian Empire:


Tsar Alexander III gave his approval to fund the cathedral on the date of the anniversary of the partitions of Poland in 1893 which was celebrated as the "joining of the West Russian state".

[thatoneton]

I know, prior to WW2 architecture of Poland was looking differently. However today it does not. Even some new living complex in smaller places gives you Russian vibes more so than German/Austrian vibe. Anyway, I think the best part of Poland are its people (those that actually live there).

Most places in Poland gives you Polish vibes instead. And if you think before WW2 Poland was filled with Orthodox churches and had matrioshka dolls sold on the corner of every street then you must be joking. :)

Of course before WW2 Poland looked much different than today because a large part of it was not industrialized yet so it was filled with villages besides the less numerous towns and cities and a bigger percentage of the population lived in them.

I guess in the old times Poland looked even more different to Russia than it does today.

[Ugo]

Most places in Poland gives you Polish vibes instead. And if you think before WW2 Poland was filled with Orthodox churches and had matrioshka dolls sold on the corner of every street then you must be joking. :)

Of course before WW2 Poland looked much different than today because a large part of it was not industrialized yet so it was filled with villages besides the less numerous towns and cities and a bigger percentage of the population lived in them.

I guess in the old times Poland looked even more different to Russia than it does today.
Kurwa, demolished a very beautiful Orthodox church. What did he bother you with?

[Katarzyna]

I know, prior to WW2 architecture of Poland was looking differently. However today it does not. Even some new living complex in smaller places gives you Russian vibes more so than German/Austrian vibe. Anyway, I think the best part of Poland are its people (those that actually live there).

Do you mean the huge condo apartments in the suburbs built during communism times?
Yes, they do exist and we try to get rid of them. But that’s not a solely Russian thing, eastern Germany got them as well

https://i.ibb.co/kD9kvSy/IMG-3973.jpg (https://ibb.co/R6BZdDS)

[thatoneton]

Kurwa, demolished a very beautiful Orthodox church. What did he bother you with?

Didn't you see the post #37 in this thread? It was built for the Russian soldiers and officials so after the war it lost any function. Also it was occupying place in a very representative part of Warsaw.

[Salty Ears]

I dont know what could be better than russian wooden modern

Tokareva's mansion in Perm

https://kelohouse.ru/images/alybom23/1.jpg

https://kelohouse.ru/images/alybom23/9.jpg

Nosov's mansion in Moscow (american style)

https://i.postimg.cc/k53rPhz7/snimok-ekrana-2022-04-22-v-15-26-47.jpg

Northern modern good too, in Russia its rather presented

[Dušan]

Didn't you see the post #37 in this thread? It was built for the Russian soldiers and officials so after the war it lost any function. Also it was occupying place in a very representative part of Warsaw.

It is still barbaric act.

But I dont bother what are you doing in your country.

Seems good that 11.000 Polish colonists that Austria-Hungary settled in Serb ethnic areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina in period 1878-1918. are moved out in 1945.

[true_southron]

Do you mean the huge condo apartments in the suburbs built during communism times?
Yes, they do exist and we try to get rid of them. But that’s not a solely Russian thing, eastern Germany got them as well

https://i.ibb.co/kD9kvSy/IMG-3973.jpg (https://ibb.co/R6BZdDS)

Yes, but I saw "new" such buildings, from perhaps 15 years or so.

Its nothing really wrong with those houses (I guess), but it just gives pessimistic, melancholic vibes, kind of like you live in North Pole or Mars :D

[Salty Ears]

Didn't you see the post #37 in this thread? It was built for the Russian soldiers and officials so after the war it lost any function. Also it was occupying place in a very representative part of Warsaw.

Bolshevics said things like it and even hided hatred against Church by some rationalism. Poles and commies are the same. Even turks didnt destroyed St. Sofia

[cass]

I know, prior to WW2 architecture of Poland was looking differently. However today it does not. Even some new living complex in smaller places gives you Russian vibes more so than German/Austrian vibe. Anyway, I think the best part of Poland are its people (those that actually live there).

I recommend you a Russian channels that compares cities and villages
https://www.youtube.com/@user-cq4gh7sc5d/videos

https://www.youtube.com/@Nakamuro155

[true_southron]

I recommend you a Russian channels that compares cities and villages
https://www.youtube.com/@user-cq4gh7sc5d/videos

https://www.youtube.com/@Nakamuro155

Thank you, kind sir. I appreciate the education lessons I get from Poles. First I got history lessons in Bialystok Siberia museum, and now urban and suburban architecture. I think I learned more about Russia from Poles than Russians :D

[rothaer]

Really?

Kraków
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Sukiennice_and_Main_Market_Square_Krakow_Poland.JP G

Warszawa

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Rynek_Starego_Miasta_w_Warszawie_strona_Zakrzewski ego_2018.jpg

Poznań

https://meteor-turystyka.pl/images/places/0/135.jpg

Gdańsk

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Gda%C5%84sk%2C_D%C5%82ugi_Targ_%28HB1%29.jpg

Lublin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Lublin_-_trybuna%C5%82_%28stary_ratusz%29_z_g%C3%B3ry_gl.J PG

Wrocław

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Wroc%C5%82aw-RYNEK_-_panorama_z_ko%C5%9Bcio%C5%82a_p.w._%C5%9Bw._El%C5 %BCbiety_-_panoramio.jpg

BTW the palace you called "Russian looking" is French-inspired Magnate residence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branicki_Palace,_Bia%C5%82ystok

Mostly you show German buildings. :) I'd say all but Lublin and Warszawa. Even most of what is visible and notable from the Poznan and Kraków pics is German. Not sure how the ethnic composition in Krakau was in 1555 when they started to build the Renaissance Tuchhallen. But the tower from the city hall from the 13th century was from the pure German period of Krakau (in the beginning Poles were not even allowed to become citizens, we've discussed and elaborated it here at TA with Peterski). In 1600 AD the German language was ceased at the Krakau city court which was the heyday of Polonisation, but already before throughout the 16th century the majority of new citizens were Poles. Here's a lot on information on those conditions:

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjryqOVlLWBAxXxnf0HHWF4AtI4ChAWegQIEBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zfo-online.de%2Fportal%2Fzfo%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F64 87%2F6486&usg=AOvVaw3709oNUzPZW6Hdj6IxHrd_&opi=89978449

As for Posen there is the "Rechtsbuch der Stadt Posen" that shows that the language of the entity of the city of Posen was German only in 1400 AD (however):

https://www.geschichtsquellen.de/werk/4118

I'm not sure about the conditions when the Renaissance city hall was built, as this happened comparably late in the 16th century. I didn't dig deeper now. Often you find in Polish cities that they were German entities at their foundation and then lasted like that for centuries before they became Polonised. The small town Birnbaum/Miedzychód where I have ancestry from was a fully German entity even in the 17th century as I could see. It doesn't mean there were no Poles around but they were mostly no citizens and had not much to do with the political entity of the city. The administration language at that time was German only and the citizens were overwhelmingly Germans.

The cities of Danzig and Breslau we don't even have to talk about in that context. They were German settled till 1945 so the "Polish architecture" that you see on those pics is simply Germany proper, not different to Berlin or Lübeck.

[cass]

Mostly you show German houses. :) I'd say all but Lublin and Warszawa. Even most of what is visible and notable from the Poznan and Kraków pics is German. Not sure how the ethnic composition in Krakau was in 1555 when they started to build the Renaissance Tuchhallen. But the tower from the city hall from the 13th century was from the pure German period of Krakau (in


During Pro Czech Mayor Albert's Rebellion in 1311 to distinguish the German-speaking burghers of Kraków, the shibboleth Soczewica, koło, miele, młyn ("Lentil, wheel, grinds (verb), mill) was used. Those who could not properly pronounce this phrase were executed.

[thatoneton]

Bolshevics said things like it and even hided hatred against Church by some rationalism. Poles and commies are the same. Even turks didnt destroyed St. Sofia

You must be joking. The church that we're discussing here was built in 1912. Comparing it to Hagia Sofia is a joke.

[rothaer]

During Pro Czech Mayor Albert's Rebellion in 1311 to distinguish the German-speaking burghers of Kraków, the shibboleth Soczewica, koło, miele, młyn ("Lentil, wheel, grinds (verb), mill) was used. Those who could not properly pronounce this phrase were executed.

Exactly! (I would neatly survive btw.) :)

EDIT: Ah, grinds (verb)! :thumb001: Even Poles that I asked could till this very day not explain the meaning of miele!

[thatoneton]

Mostly you show German buildings. :) I'd say all but Lublin and Warszawa. Even most of what is visible and notable from the Poznan and Kraków pics is German. Not sure how the ethnic composition in Krakau was in 1555 when they started to build the Renaissance Tuchhallen.


But the tower from the city hall from the 13th century was from the pure German period of Krakau (in the beginning Poles were not even allowed to become citizens, we've discussed and elaborated it here at TA with Peterski).
You must have misunderstood something. New Polish settlers were not allowed to move to Kraków after the Mongol's raids devastated much of Poland in the 13th century so as to not "empty" the lands around the city. The Poles lived there already for 500 years and were both present in the city at the time and after the ban was lifted.


In 1600 AD the German language was ceased at the Krakau city court which was the heyday of Polonisation, but already before throughout the 16th century the majority of new citizens were Poles. Here's a lot on information on those conditions:

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjryqOVlLWBAxXxnf0HHWF4AtI4ChAWegQIEBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zfo-online.de%2Fportal%2Fzfo%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F64 87%2F6486&usg=AOvVaw3709oNUzPZW6Hdj6IxHrd_&opi=89978449

As for Posen there is the "Rechtsbuch der Stadt Posen" that shows that the language of the entity of the city of Posen was German only in 1400 AD (however):

https://www.geschichtsquellen.de/werk/4118

I'm not sure about the conditions when the Renaissance city hall was built, as this happened comparably late in the 16th century. I didn't dig deeper now.


Often you find in Polish cities that they were German entities at their foundation and then lasted like that for centuries before they became Polonised.
This is another example of a German's misrepresentation of Poland's past. No big city in Poland was "at its foundation" German, but if anything became so after many centuries of existence. Such was the case of Wrocław and Gdańsk which belonged to Poland since the 10th century, and Kraków, Poznań etc. The German merchants and artisans were brought to Poland especially after the Mongol devastation and peasant settlers to fill in the empty lands. This also happened after the Danish raids devastated Western Pomerania.


The cities of Danzig and Breslau we don't even have to talk about in that context. They were German settled till 1945 so the "Polish architecture" that you see on those pics is simply Germany proper, not different to Berlin or Lübeck.
Both became German majority only after centuries of being Polish and both had a Polish population until the 20th century (which was however a minority at the time).
BTW Both Berlin and Lubeka are areas of German settlement in the Lechitic lands, and both are not even Germanic names.

[thatoneton]

Exactly! (I would neatly survive btw.) :)

EDIT: Ah, grinds (verb)! :thumb001: Even Poles that I asked could till this very day not explain the meaning of miele!

Miele - mielić. This is a normal word in Polish. Don't really get who wouldn't understand it.

[cass]

Most cities in medieval Poland, up to Kiev and Minsk, were founded primary or secondary under Magdeburg law. This does not mean that they were largely inhabited by Germans, but they had modern (at that time) location rules and some legal disputes were resolved by the Magdeburg court.

https://www.pma.pl/magdeburg/Zasieg%20prawa-ziel.jpg

[rothaer]

Miele - mielić. This is a normal word in Polish. Don't really get who wouldn't understand it.

I guess it was not expected a verb.

[Voskos]

According to a Pole, if you're not at least 30% German-admixed like them, you're supposedly a ''Byzantine''.

Target: Polish
Distance: 2.0043% / 0.02004339
72.6 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
27.4 German

Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
Distance: 4.2753% / 0.04275305
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 2.6933% / 0.02693310
91.2 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
8.8 German

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 3.5920% / 0.03591998
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 2.9353% / 0.02935252
94.6 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
5.4 German

Target: Russian_Ryazan
Distance: 2.9230% / 0.02922980
95.8 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
4.2 German

Target: Russian_Pskov
Distance: 3.8362% / 0.03836190
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Pinezhsky
Distance: 8.7347% / 0.08734656
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 8.5294% / 0.08529372
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 2.6517% / 0.02651664
93.6 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
6.4 German

Target: Russian_Leshukonsky
Distance: 10.4431% / 0.10443062
100.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 2.8636% / 0.02863601
94.0 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
6.0 German

Target: Russian_Krasnoborsky
Distance: 6.6506% / 0.06650570
98.8 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
1.2 German

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 5.5926% / 0.05592627
96.2 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
3.8 German

Target: Russian_Kaluga
Distance: 3.2991% / 0.03299098
96.8 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
3.2 German

Target: Russian_Belgorod
Distance: 2.1760% / 0.02175978
92.2 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
7.8 German

[Grace O'Malley]

'Celto-Germanic' is a fake group invented by Celts who want to be in the same group as Germanics. No such thing exists or ever existed.

Celto-Romance group is real but the correct name is Italo-Celtic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

Wrong. Both Celto-Germanic and Italo-Celtic are language terms coined by linguists in the 19th Century. The same with Balto-Slavic and Celto-Romance, Indo-Iranic. If you don't want to use that terminology then don't use any of them. What term would you use then to include countries like the US, Australia etc? Canada could also be included in the Celto-Romance category due to French influence.

[cass]

According to a Pole, if you're not at least 30% German-admixed like them, you're supposedly a ''Byzantine''.


LOL

I will disappoint you. Polish Renaissance and Vilnian Baroque, the most beautiful north of the Alps, were initiated by Italian architects.

[Andullero]

https://i.postimg.cc/fZcC2y2p/A-large-blank-world-map-with-oceans-marked-in-blue.png




Choose the Indo-European societies where you would feel comfortable to live in.




Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are part of the Celto Romance world too muh dude.

Voted and subscribed.

[thatoneton]

I guess it was not expected a verb.

Maybe because "miele" is an older way of saying it and nowadays it is "mieli"

[thatoneton]

According to a Pole, if you're not at least 30% German-admixed like them, you're supposedly a ''Byzantine''.
This is so funny. As if we cared about it. Also most Poles are not "30% German-admixed" including in fact the one that you posted. :)

Byzantine means Orthodox-descended which is how this bizarre (for the modern times) grouping of different states was represented, namely here:
https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/russian-orthodox-church-in-the-cold-winter-snow-drifts-village-zaostrovie-arkhangelsk-region_323283-5803.jpg
with a Russian orthodox church - as if this had anything to do with us.

[rothaer]

You must have misunderstood something. New Polish settlers were not allowed to move to Kraków after the Mongol's raids devastated much of Poland in the 13th century so as to not "empty" the lands around the city. The Poles lived there already for 500 years and were both present in the city at the time and after the ban was lifted.

Poles were not part of the new founded entity city of Krakau in 1257 and it's this entity that caused the buildings shown by you. After the lift of the mentioned ban they were allowed but still did not much become citizens for a pretty long time respectively just in small numbers. The entity of the city of Krakau continued to be an ethnic German entity also after the ban. Till it eventually became Polonised, ofc.


This is another example of a German's misrepresentation of Poland's past. No big city in Poland was "at its foundation" German, but if anything became so after many centuries of existence. Such was the case of Wrocław and Gdańsk which belonged to Poland since the 10th century, and Kraków, Poznań etc. The German merchants and artisans were brought to Poland especially after the Mongol devastation and peasant settlers to fill in the empty lands. This also happened after the Danish raids devastated Western Pomerania.

You seem to confuse a political entity of a city with a city that just means a bigger settlement. The latter were often existing for very long. But this is not the topic we talk about. We talk about who erected the buildings you showed. And they were erected by the political entity of the city if it were public buildings, by the entity of the church if it were churches and the private houses within the town walls were erected by it's burghers, the members of the political entity of the city. Now, this latter was founded or re-founded along some right, f. i. Magdeburg right and then it had to be determined who became a burgher and who not. And in this context not just the administrational language was German regarding the cities we speak of here but also the burghers / citizens were widely Germans. As for Breslau I have myslef been into genealogical books for all known citizen families in Breslau which goes back till abt. 1500 and out of some 200 families only one had a Polish sounding name. So whatever was before, after these cities were re-founded as entities in the Middle Ages their citizens were almost exclusively German.


Both became German majority only after centuries of being Polish

This will be correct for the early populations of these places (at Danzig were no Poles but Slavic Pomeranians / Kashubs, which are assigned differently linguistically) but not for the citizens of these new entities. Also, the time before the 12th century that this applies to is not in a single case the time when any of the showed buildings were erected. (Btw. the Germanisations you refer to imply that the only descendants of those Slavs you refer to are the Germans. Just to keep it in mind.)


and both had a Polish population until the 20th century (which was however a minority at the time).

Excatly like Hamburg or Berlin, so completely irrelevant in this context. It's an intentional confusion to at all mention this as if it would have any relevance.


BTW Both Berlin and Lubeka are areas of German settlement in the Lechitic lands, and both are not even Germanic names.

Yes, exactly. This is how the various Eastern German so called New tribes like Mecklenburgians, Pomeranians, Brandenburgians etc, emerged (by an amalgamation of these Lechitic tribes and Old-German settlers).

These people are what is called Germans.

[Voskos]

This is so funny. As if we cared about it. Also most Poles are not "30% German-admixed" including in fact the one that you posted. :)

Byzantine means Orthodox-descended which is how this bizarre (for the modern times) grouping of different states was represented
with a Russian orthodox church - as if this had anything to do with us.

you are bother more by a single picture of a russian building than 30 whole percentage points of German ancestry. This is insanity.

[rothaer]

This is so funny. As if we cared about it. Also most Poles are not "30% German-admixed" including in fact the one that you posted. :)

Byzantine means Orthodox-descended which is how this bizarre (for the modern times) grouping of different states was represented, namely here:
https://img.freepik.com/premium-photo/russian-orthodox-church-in-the-cold-winter-snow-drifts-village-zaostrovie-arkhangelsk-region_323283-5803.jpg
with a Russian orthodox church - as if this had anything to do with us.

Not this pic again. :cry It has the charme of a German WWII bunker (Luftschutzbunker) with some installed oversized ventilation constructions.

https://i.imgur.com/RviPyvD.jpg

[thatoneton]

Poles were not part of the new founded entity city of Krakau in 1257 and it's this entity that caused the buildings shown by you. After the lift of the mentioned ban they were allowed but still did not much become citizens fo a pretty long time respectively just in small numbers. The entity of the city of Krakau continued to be an ethnic German entity also after the ban. Till it eventually became Polonised, ofc.

You seem to confuse a political entity of a city with a city that just means a bigger settlement. The latter were often existing for very long. But this is not the topic we talk about. We talk about who erected the buildings you showed. And they were erected by the political entity of the city if it were public buildings, by the entity of the church if it were churches and the private houses within the town walls were erected by it's burghers, the members of the political entity of the city. Now, this latter was founded or re-founded along some right, f. i. Magdeburg right and then it had to be determined who became a burgher and who not. And in this context not just the administrational language was German regarding the cities we speak of here but also the burghers / citizens were widely Germans. As for Breslau I have myslef been into genealogical books for all known citizen families in Breslau which goes back till abt. 1500 and out of some 200 families only one had a Polish sounding name. So whatever was before, after these cities were re-founded as entities in the Middle Ages their citizens were almost exclusively German.

All it stands for is that during the late Medieval Times some cities in Poland - which at the time were very small - had a German majority, which later typically got Polonized. The Poles lived both within those cities and in the countryside, even if they were not officially considered their "citizens".


This will be correct for the early populations of these places (at Danzig were no Poles but Slavic Pomeranians / Kashubs, which are assigned differently linguistically)
And this says a German nationalist who claims that everyone from the Netherlands to Austria is German? :picard1:
My friend, unlike the Bavarians who fought not to be included into Germany and had a strong independence movement, and who according to modern classification have their own language (Bavarian), and unlike the Saxonians who always spoke a different language (Saxon/Low German), not mentioning Alemannic etc. Kashubians/Pomeranians are a subgroup of Poles who have always considered themselves Polish. They always voted for the Polish Party in the German Empire elections and later when they were (against their will) included into the Free City of Gdańsk and to this day almost everyone there considers themselves Polish.
123319

It seems you chooses whichever approach suits you.



but not for the citizens of these new entities. Also, the time before the 12th century that this applies to is not in a single case the time when any of the showed buildings were erected.
Not 12th but 13th century.


(Btw. the Germanisations you refer to imply that the only descendants of those Slavs you refer to are the Germans. Just to keep it in mind.)
Only if you exclude the possibility that some others were not Germanized and that those Germanized stayed like this ever since.


Excatly like Hamburg or Berlin, so completely irrelevant in this context. It's an intentional confusion to at all mention this as if it would have any relevance.
It's about as irrelevant as the fact that Germans lived in Poland before 1945 if they are not to be found there now.


Yes, exactly. This is how the various Eastern German so called New tribes like Mecklenburgians, Pomeranians, Brandenburgians etc, emerged (by an amalgamation of these Lechitic tribes and Old-German settlers).
BTW do you know what Lechitic means? It's a Medieval Greek (Byzantine) name for the Poles. Also you're right that these are not the original German tribes, as those lived to the West of the Elbe and Saale.

[thatoneton]

you are bother more by a single picture of a russian building than 30 whole percentage points of German ancestry. This is insanity.

How can a Russian be angry about someone having a significant admixture if Russians are 1/4th Finno-Ugric not counting other admix?

[Voskos]

How can a Russian be angry about someone having a significant admixture if Russians are 1/4th Finno-Ugric not counting other admix?

I wasn't angry. I accepted you as who you are. You're my Polish friend from Niemcy.

I swore to our slavic brotherhood. It is now eternal.

[Creoda]

Wrong. Both Celto-Germanic and Italo-Celtic are language terms coined by linguists in the 19th Century. The same with Balto-Slavic and Celto-Romance, Indo-Iranic. If you don't want to use that terminology then don't use any of them. What term would you use then to include countries like the US, Australia etc? Canada could also be included in the Celto-Romance category due to French influence.
Never ceases to be amazing the ridiculous things people say on this forum (not you), in almost every thread. Celto-Germanic is the best way in this context to describe the people, not the culture, of most of Northwest Europe and their descendants overseas: England, Netherlands, Belgium, (West) Germany, Switzerland, Northern France, Austria, Iceland and arguably Scotland are all characterised by being a mixture of ancient Celtic and Germanic peoples, not purely Celtic or Germanic. Meanwhile the so-called Celtic nations speak a Germanic language, as well as having notable Germanic ancestry, and the purest Germanic countries of Scandinavia have 10-25% ancient Insular Celtic ancestry.

[Abti]

Celto-Germanic: Barbarian neighbors next door.

Balto-Slavic: Very barbarian neighbors next door.

Indo-Iranic: relegated to… middle class at best in the caste system.

Celto-Romance: what’s the worse that can happen? You get crucified for being the king of the Jews.

Verdict: Celto-Romance

[Ugo]

How can a Russian be angry about someone having a significant admixture if Russians are 1/4th Finno-Ugric not counting other admix?
What are the "other admixtures"? Mongols or Aborigines of Australia? What admixture will the Pole come up with for us?

[rothaer]

All it stands for is that during the late Medieval Times some cities in Poland - which at the time were very small - had a German majority, which later typically got Polonized. The Poles lived both within those cities and in the countryside, even if they were not officially considered their "citizens".

True. But you don't need to put citizen in quotation marks. They were not part of those erecting those buildings.


And this says a German nationalist who claims that everyone from the Netherlands to Austria is German? :picard1:

I expressly stated (in another thread) that Dutch are no Germans, just Germans in a wider sense. So comparable to your Lechitic speakers.


My friend, unlike the Bavarians who fought not to be included into Germany (...)

Can you give an example for such a fight? I'm curious what you refer to.


and had a strong independence movement, and who according to modern classification have their own language (Bavarian), and unlike the Saxonians who always spoke a different language (Saxon/Low German), not mentioning Alemannic etc.

Just Low German is classified another language than the Upper German dialects. The latter evolved by a later sound shift. Originally all spoke Low German-like.


Kashubians/Pomeranians are a subgroup of Poles who have always considered themselves Polish. They always voted for the Polish Party in the German Empire elections and later when they were (against their will) included into the Free City of Gdańsk and to this day almost everyone there considers themselves Polish.
123319

Thanks for the map. You refer to modern times and only to those who were not assimilated into Germans. I speak of Pomerania in the 12th century f. i. But also as for later times what you say is just applicable to the late Catholic Kashubs (Pomeranians). Vast majority of the 19th century Protestant Kashubs in Eastern Farther Pomerania (Stolp area) did not indentify as Poles and assimilated quickly to Germans like had done in the prior centuries all their compatriots in the German part of Pomerania.


Not 12th but 13th century.

Agreed.


Only if you exclude the possibility that some others were not Germanized and that those Germanized stayed like this ever since.

And exactly this is in the case in broad strokes. With the exception of the opportunistic Upper Silesian Poles.


BTW do you know what Lechitic means? It's a Medieval Greek (Byzantine) name for the Poles. (...)

Yes.

[Katarzyna]

What are the "other admixtures"? Mongols or Aborigines of Australia? What admixture will the Pole come up with for us?

Almost all Russians have some Finno-Ugric admixture and some even have some Nganassan. Poles usually have around 15% Germanic DNA (but there are exceptions). But they can also have Old-Balkan ancestry (especially if they are from the South) and often they have Baltic, Lithuanian or Northern Belarusian ancestry, if they come from the East. Those are the individuals who have high Baltic HG in ancient calculators.
So basically, Poles just follow the rules of everyone else in the world: they are influenced by their neighbours.

[Ugo]

Almost all Russians have some Finno-Ugric admixture and some even have some Nganassan. Poles usually have around 15% Germanic DNA (but there are exceptions). But they can also have Old-Balkan ancestry (especially if they are from the South) and often they have Baltic, Lithuanian or Northern Belarusian ancestry, if they come from the East. Those are the individuals who have high Baltic HG in ancient calculators.
So basically, Poles just follow the rules of everyone else in the world: they are influenced by their neighbours.Nganassans are part of the Finno-Ugrians. Your Pole tells stories about some other admixture..Maybe Caucasians? I sometimes have about 3% of Georgians. I think these are Volga Finns, they included Alans. I think the Poles are very concerned about their comparison with the Russians. The younger brother complex.

[Blondie]

...

We must invade thatoneton's village and we should germanize him.

[Regnera]

I don't consider Scandinavia and Latin-America as "Celto-"something.

[rothaer]

We must invade thatoneton's village and we should germanize him.

I don't know why you think that he deserves such an award. :p

Till now I only could discover cass as someone smoothly fitting into Germanisation, indicated by both his referred to nice home towns Karthaus, Konitz and Neustadt as well as his genetics. Actually that area and that population was close to being casually Germanised. History and fate became different, but the natural proximity remains.

As for thatoneton - particularly if he becomes more insubordinate - we should consider another suitable measure. We could hand him over to his big brother Vjatych for further education. :thumb001:

[Katarzyna]

I don't know why you think that he deserves such an award. :p

Till now I only could discover cass as someone smoothly fitting into Germanisation, indicated by both his referred to nice home towns Karthaus, Konitz and Neustadt as well as his genetics.

I disagree. He only appears very German to you because of his DNA which to us TA-members is the most important thing. (Because the whole website is based on it). But I am still sure if you met him as a person in “real life” he would just appear like an average Pole to you.

[majevica]

I disagree. He only appears very German to you because of his DNA which to us TA-members is the most important thing. (Because the whole website is based on it). But I am still sure if you met him as a person in “real life” he would just appear like an average Pole to you.

You are also fit for Germanisation, you have German ancestors, you are a Protestant, you grew up in Germany and you don't look out of place there at all

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Where I would feel comfortable? Realistically I could live everywhere as an expat in most of those countries on a temporary basis (a couple of years lets say) without much of a problem. Some countries in the Middle East would have to be considered, but Iran, India or Nepal would be fine.

[rothaer]

I disagree. He only appears very German to you because of his DNA which to us TA-members is the most important thing. (Because the whole website is based on it). But I am still sure if you met him as a person in “real life” he would just appear like an average Pole to you.

Yes, maybe. I don't know him in person. I did not just refer to DNA btw.

However, there's no interest in Germanising anyone and I also didn't suggest that.

[Ugo]

In fact, I have a normal attitude towards Poles. I’ve never even seen them in my life...They personally didn’t do anything bad to me. But why does Katarina annoy me so much? I'm thinking about adding it to the ignore list.

[true_southron]

What are the "other admixtures"? Mongols or Aborigines of Australia? What admixture will the Pole come up with for us?

Something's wrong with Mongols or Aborigines?

[Ugo]

Something's wrong with Mongols or Aborigines?
Russians do not have such admixture. Aboriginal people have up to 15% non-homo sapiens ancestors, if you're interested.

[true_southron]

Russians do not have such admixture. Aboriginal people have up to 15% non-homo sapiens ancestors, if you're interested.

So you think they are inferior because they have up to 15% DNA of other primate? You got problems with other living beings?

[Ugo]

So you think they are inferior because they have up to 15% DNA of other primate? You got problems with other living beings?
Cannibals. Neanderthals devoured our puny ancestors. The Papuans ate James Cook and wanted to eat Miklukho Maklay.

[true_southron]

Cannibals. Neanderthals devoured our puny ancestors. The Papuans ate James Cook and wanted to eat Miklukho Maklay.

So essentially you don't like their dietary habits? Ok, sounds reasonable if you're vegetarian

[majevica]

Cannibals. Neanderthals devoured our puny ancestors. The Papuans ate James Cook and wanted to eat Miklukho Maklay.

https://imgur.com/ILWSGAc.jpg

[thatoneton]

We must invade
Germans at it again... :)




thatoneton's village
:lol00002::lol00002::lol00002::lol00002::lol00002: :lol00002:





and we should germanize him.
Maybe you should try to Germanize millions of your doctors and engineers from the Middle East instead? :cool:

[Blondie]

....

But you would be nice german or russian :)

[thatoneton]

I expressly stated (in another thread) that Dutch are no Germans, just Germans in a wider sense. So comparable to your Lechitic speakers.
(...)
Thanks for the map. You refer to modern times and only to those who were not assimilated into Germans. I speak of Pomerania in the 12th century f. i. But also as for later times what you say is just applicable to the late Catholic Kashubs (Pomeranians). Vast majority of the 19th century Protestant Kashubs in Eastern Farther Pomerania (Stolp area) did not indentify as Poles and assimilated quickly to Germans like had done in the prior centuries all their compatriots in the German part of Pomerania.


Germans in the widest sense* - meaning every Germanic person from the North Sea to the Alps (arising first with the concept of the Germanic Kingdom "Regnum Teutonicorum") is a comparable term to West Slavic people. In both cases differences arise from geography.

Roughly speaking in your case you had 3 distinct regions - northern lowlands, middle uplands and southern mountainsides.
In the first you had Saxons and the ancestors of the Dutch(and Flemish) and Frisians.
In the middle - Franconians(they also partly lived in the north) and Turyngians.
In the south - Swabians and Bavarians.

As the western areas beyond the Rhine belonged to Lotharingia and later came under the long Franco-German rivalry today Germanic people there see themselves as different ethnic groups - Luxembourgers and Alsatians.

In the north the Dutch came to disassociate themselves from the Germans wheres the Saxons gradually came to see themselves as Germans as is to this day. Frisians still survive but are much less widely spread than before. This is also where the Low German survives.
German language comes from the middle part and this is the "typical" area of Germany, without any other national identities.
The south is divided in two -in the west you have Swabians and the Swiss, wheres in the east you find Austrians, Bavarians and Tyroleans and it is also an area with people having strong ethnic identity, namely Bavarians, Austrians, Tyroleans and the Swiss and also where you finds two different languages - Alemannic (including Swiss) and Austro-Bavarian.
Also with the expansion to the east (Drang nach Osten) the settlers from the central and north came into Połabie and Poland.


Among the West Slavic people's homeland area - you had bigger, mostly flatter region in the north and the smaller, mountainous region in the South.
That's how a major division of West Slavs came about - you got the Czecho-(Moravo)-Slovak group in the south divided by mountains and Lechitic in what is now Poland and East Germany (Połabie).

Notice that many modern classifications wrongly classifies Lusatian as another grouping alongside Lechitic because of the Czechization process in underwent which is incorrect as languages are classified by their genetic relation:

Among the Lechitic people we have Lusatians (Sorbs) who have lost their sense of national identity in the 20th century after the long period of forced Germanization and persecution reaching up to the end of WW2.

Kashubians are simply the only Polish Pomeranians who didn't become Germanized. The fact that Kashubian was recognized as another Lechitic language alongside Polish is the same as Alemannic and Bavarian which are recognized by several international linguistic organizations as different languages (Allemanic sometimes as two - Swiss Alemannic and Swabian for example).


Can you give an example for such a fight? I'm curious what you refer to.
Austro-Prussian War


* -opposite the Scandinavians, Anglo-Saxons, Burgundians etc.

[thatoneton]

But you would be nice german or russian :)

You too :thumb001:

[thatoneton]

Nganassans are part of the Finno-Ugrians. Your Pole tells stories about some other admixture..Maybe Caucasians? I sometimes have about 3% of Georgians. I think these are Volga Finns, they included Alans. I think the Poles are very concerned about their comparison with the Russians. The younger brother complex.

And I was to say that you also descend from the Scythians, which so many Russians seems to crave. :(

And do you know who is a younger brother to whom?
Russians are to the Ukrainians, who descends from the Polyanians of Kiev, unlike the Russians.


The only thing we are concerned is if you put some Asian-looking wooden architecture from Russia supposedly to symbolize also us. It attacks our sense of aesthetics.

[Ugo]

And I was to say that you also descend from the Scythians, which so many Russians seems to crave. :(

And do you know who is a younger brother to whom?
Russians are to the Ukrainians, who descends from the Polyanians of Kiev, unlike the Russians.


The only thing we are concerned is if you put some Asian-looking wooden architecture from Russia supposedly to symbolize also us. It attacks our sense of aesthetics.

The first Russians were not Polyane, but the Varangians, Novgorod Slovenes, Krivichi and Finno-Ugric. They captured Polyane in 882. The Russian khaganate on the Volga has been known since the beginning of the IX century. So the younger brothers are Ukrainians. To be honest, Poles have nothing to do with Russia.

The church architecture in Russia is Byzantine. It's your Papuan brain that doesn't know. Russians made residential houses like all forest Slavs - from logs, not from cow shit - as Ukrainians and Poles did.

[Ugo]

The only thing we are concerned is if you put some Asian-looking wooden architecture from Russia supposedly to symbolize also us. It attacks our sense of aesthetics.
All urban architecture of the Poles is from the Germans. Initially, the Poles lived in dugouts, then they learned to build houses from cow dung.
https://i.ibb.co/BKrM3gC/748858-1-w-570.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
Here is the material for Polish architecture.
https://i.ibb.co/3BKrdKt/shutterstock-1053773654.jpg (https://ibb.co/D5dVWd3)

Russians originally built log huts.
https://i.ibb.co/QCWdCpD/scale-1200.jpg (https://ibb.co/61KB1rX)

[Voskos]

Balto-Slavic not, only Balkano-Slavic.

Same here, + Armenia + Pontus. The Poles and the Finns can fight who is more byzantine amongst them, it is not my concern.

[cass]

Russians originally built log huts.



These Slavic tribes preserved their own customs, the law of their
forefathers, and their traditions, each observing its own usages.
For the Polyanians retained the mild and peaceful customs of their
ancestors, and showed respect for their daughters-in-law and their
sisters, as well as for their mothers and fathers. For their mothers in-law and their brothers-in-law they also entertained great reverence.
They observed a fixed custom, under which the groom's brother did
not fetch the bride, but she was brought to the bridegroom in the evening, and on the next morning her dowry was turned over.
The Derevlians, on the other hand, existed in bestial fashion, and
lived like cattle. They killed one another, ate every impure thing, and
tl1ere was no marriage among them, but instead they seized upon
maidens by captureP The Radimichians, the Vyatichians, and the
Severians had the same customs. They lived in the forest like any wild
beast, and ate every unclean thing. They spoke obscenely (14) before
their fathers and their daughters-in-law. There were no marriages
among them, but simply festivals among the villages. When the people gathered together for games, for dancing, and for all other devilish
amusements, the men on these occasions carried off wives for themselves, and each took any woman with whom he had arrived at an
understanding. In fact, they even had two or three wives apiece. W

source: The Rus' Primary Chronicle
(Povest vremennykh let)

Lechitic Radusz reconstruction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5p86qWGEuU

[Ugo]

source: The Rus' Primary Chronicle
(Povest vremennykh let)

Lechitic Radusz reconstruction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5p86qWGEuU
Description of the life of the pagans. This is a clear exaggeration.

[cass]

Description of the life of the pagans. This is a clear exaggeration.

Nestor clearly differentiates Polyanians from Derevlians, Radimichians, the Vyatichians, and the
Severians



Lechitic Radogoszcz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF6itlSb_ew

Birów

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngs24eJL2k8

[Ugo]

Nestor clearly differentiates Polyanians from Derevlians, Radimichians, the Vyatichians, and the
Severians
Lechitic Radogoszcz

Because Nestor was a Polyanian.

[Ugo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF6itlSb_ew

Birów

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngs24eJL2k8These are not authentic wooden buildings. Restored museums + Luzhichans have nothing to do with Poles.
One of the largest cities in Europe in the 10th century was Gnezdovo (Smolensk). In my opinion, the 2nd place after Paris. Poland is a village compared to Russia.

[cass]

Because Nestor was a Polyanian.


Lucky dude.
It is no coincidence that the same tribe was the leader in the East and the West

[Ugo]

Lucky dude.
It is no coincidence that the same tribe was the leader in the East and the WestThey are not the same tribe. The Russian Polyane belonged to the Volyntsev culture. Polish Polyane to Luka-raykovetskaya. Both lived in the field(pole).

[cass]

These are not authentic wooden buildings. Restored museums + Luzhichans have nothing to do with Poles.
One of the largest cities in Europe in the 10th century was Gnezdovo (Smolensk). In my opinion, the 2nd place after Paris. Poland is a village compared to Russia.

LOL

The Lechitic (or Lekhitic) languages are a language subgroup consisting of Polish and several other languages and dialects that were once spoken in the area that is now Poland and eastern Germany.[1] It is one of the branches of the larger West Slavic subgroup; the other branches of this subgroup are the Czech–Slovak languages and the Sorbian languages.



It is very good that such archaeological objects are being restored.
The structure is identical to the Lusatian fortresses of the Bronze Age. Biskupin is largely original, discovered after the water level was lowered.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6DKocqn1E8

[Ugo]

LOL




It is very good that such archaeological objects are being restored.
The structure is identical to the Lusatian fortresses of the Bronze Age. Biskupin is largely original, discovered after the water level was lowered.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6DKocqn1E8
What jewelry did ancient Polish women wear? I didn't find any information. They probably didn't wear clothes and jewelry at all. Why, when reconstructing the life and clothes of Slavs, Poles use the clothes of Vyatichi and Radimichi?

[thatoneton]

The first Russians were not Polyane, but the Varangians, Novgorod Slovenes, Krivichi and Finno-Ugric. They captured Polyane in 882. The Russian khaganate on the Volga has been known since the beginning of the IX century. So the younger brothers are Ukrainians. To be honest, Poles have nothing to do with Russia.
"Rus' Khaganate" is nothing else than the (Kievan) Rus state. The theory that it was a different polity is based solely on the fact that the name for its leader is sometimes given as Khagan, which comes from the steppe peoples' (mostly Turkic), influence in the region - especially the Khazar Khaganate which controlled parts of East Slavic lands. Also in 882 the capital was moved to Kiev, but Askold and Dir went to rule Kiev in 866 if I'm not mistaken.

Also (modern-day) Poles as you correctly said have nothing to do with Russia, in the past they gave birth to Radimichi and Viatichi.


The church architecture in Russia is Byzantine. It's your Papuan brain that doesn't know. Russians made residential houses like all forest Slavs - from logs, not from cow shit - as Ukrainians and Poles did.
Why do you assume Poles were not building their homes from wood?

[thatoneton]

What jewelry did ancient Polish women wear? I didn't find any information. They probably didn't wear clothes and jewelry at all. Why, when reconstructing the life and clothes of Slavs, Poles use the clothes of Vyatichi and Radimichi?
They would die from cold in the winter if they didn't wear any clothes.

[Ugo]

"Rus' Khaganate" is nothing else than the (Kievan) Rus state. The theory that it was a different polity is based solely on the fact that the name for its leader is sometimes given as Khagan, which comes from the steppe peoples' (mostly Turkic), influence in the region - especially the Khazar Khaganate which controlled parts of East Slavic lands. Also in 882 the capital was moved to Kiev, but Askold and Dir went to rule Kiev in 866 if I'm not mistaken.

Also (modern-day) Poles as you correctly said have nothing to do with Russia, in the past they gave birth to Radimichi and Viatichi.


Why do you assume Poles were not building their homes from wood?
Don't make up nonsense. The river route along the Dnieper was opened only at the end of the 9th century. The Russian khaganate has been known since the beginning of the IX century. Moreover, the Russian khaganate traded with Volga Bulgaria and Baghdad. This is possible only on the Volga, and not on the Dnieper. Go look at the geographical atlas.

Why do you assume Poles were not building their homes from wood?Because the Poles loved to build their huts out of cow shit. There was no forest, the ancestors of the Poles lived in a field with cows. That's why you are Poles. Although you could have been called "Govnyaki".

They would die from cold in the winter if they didn't wear any clothes.
Logically. Here is the national costume of the Vyatichi woman.
https://i.ibb.co/7X6710q/68977241-1294544547-P1020466.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Ugo]

Any historian knows that states are created in places of trade. Hoards of coins are markers of these places. This is a treasure map of 9th century Arab coins. It was with the Arab countries that the Russian khaganate traded. There are absolutely no treasures on the map in the area of the middle Dnieper and Kiev. Only the Desna, the upper course of the Dnieper, Volkhov, Oka and Volga-Don. It was this trade route that the Russ and the Russian khaganate used. It was only at the turn of the IX-X centuries that the Russ took possession of the Dnieper. There is not a single historian who would disagree with this.
https://i.ibb.co/p670hV9/483912-original.jpg (https://ibb.co/RGFvjrV)

[Blondie]

You too :thumb001:

I already have such dress :thumb001:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3f44a7418657aa9dbdc0be63fa12ca2c-lq

[cass]

Don't make up nonsense. The river route along the Dnieper was opened only at the end of the 9th century. The Russian khaganate has been known since the beginning of the IX century. Moreover, the Russian khaganate traded with Volga Bulgaria and Baghdad. This is possible only on the Volga, and not on the Dnieper. Go look at the geographical atlas.
Because the Poles loved to build their huts out of cow shit. There was no forest, the ancestors of the Poles lived in a field with cows. That's why you are Poles. Although you could have been called "Govnyaki".





You make yourself look like an ignoramus





[Part 1]

(1) Those who live closest to the borders of the Danes are called North Abodrites (Nortabtrezi), which is a land where there are 53 cities divided between their leaders. (2) The Wilzi (Uuilzi) have 95 cities and four lands. (3) The Linones (Linaa) are a people who have 7 cities; near them dwell those called Bethenici, and Smeldingon, and Morizani, who have 11 cities. (4) Next to them are those called Hevelli (Hehfeldi) who have 8 cities. (5) Next to them is the land called Surbi. In this country there are many smaller countries that have 50 cities. (6) Next to them are those called Talaminzi, who have 14 cities. (7) The Bohemians (Becheimare) have 15 cities. (8) The Marharii have 11 cities. (9) The country of the Bulgars (Uulgarii) is immeasurably large and has 5 cities, because for the vast majority of them it is not the custom to have cities. (10) There is a people called Moravians (Merehani) who have 30 cities.

These are the countries that are adjacent to our borders.

[Part 2]

These are those who settle next to their borders.

(11) The East Abodrites (Osterabtrezi), where there are more than 100 cities. (12) The Miloxi, where there are 67 cities. (13) The Phesnuzi have 70 cities. (14) The Thadesi have more than 200 cities. (15) The Glopeani, where there are 400 or more cities. (16) The Zuireani have 325 castles. (17) The Busani have 231 castles. (18) The Sittici have a land that is immeasurable in people and fortified cities (urbibus). (19) The Stadici, which have 516 cities and an immense people. (20) The Sebbirozi have 90 cities. (21) The Unlizi have a numerous people and 318 cities. (22) The Nerivani have 78 cities. (23) The Attorozi have 148 cities and are the wildest people. (24) The Eptaradici have 273 cities. (25) The Uuillerozi have 180 cities. (26) The Zabrozi have 212 cities. (27) The Znetalici have 73 cities. (28) The Aturezani have 104 cities. (29) The Chozirozi have 250 cities. (30) The Lendizi have 98 cities. (31) The Thafnezi have 257 cities. (32) The Zerivani is such a great kingdom that all the peoples of the Slavs arose and derive their origin from it, as they affirm. (32) The Prissani [possibly Prussians] have 70 cities. (33) The Uuelunzani have 79 cities. (34) The Bruzi [also possibly Prussians] [whose territory is] bigger on each side [than the distance] from the Enns to the Rhine. (35) The Uuizunbeire. (36) The Khazars (Caziri) have 100 cities. (37) The Rus (Ruzzi). (38) The Forsderen. (39) The Liudi. (40) The Fresiti. (41) The Seravici. (42) The Lucolane. (43) The Hungarians (Ungare). (44) The Vistulans (Uuislane). (45) The Sleenzane have 15 cities. (46) The Lusatians (Lunsici) have 30 cities. (47) The Dadosesani have 20 cities. (48) The Milzane have 30 cities. (49) The Besunzane have 2 cities. (50) The Uuerizane have 10 cities. (51) The Fraganeo have 40 cities. (52) The Lupiglaa have 30 cities. (53) The Opolini have 20 cities. (54) The Golensizi have 5 cities.

source: Bavarian Geographer, Description of Cities and Lands on the North Bank of the Danube, ed. E. Herrmann, Slawisch-germanische Beziehungen im südostdeutschen Raum (Munich: 1965), pp. 220-1. (https://salutemmundo.wordpress.com/2021/07/06/the-bavarian-geographer-and-the-cities-of-the-east/)


Only Goplans had over 400 strongholds.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2ZsduQWcWdo/VSfXRmqLzOI/AAAAAAAAAaI/uq6yP79YUTg/s1600/plemiona%2Bpolskie.jpg


90,000 qm of oak wood were used during the construction of the single stronghold in Grzybno (http://echaswantewita.blogspot.com/2014/04/grod-w-grzybowie.html)

[Peterski]

Mostly you show German buildings. :) I'd say all but Lublin and Warszawa.

Poznan's market square as it exists now was mostly built in the 1500s-1600s and at that time the city had a mostly Polish ethnic character.

Surnames of citizens of Poznan in various years from 1575 to 1793:

"Album civitatis Posnaniensis" - https://www.szukajwarchiwach.gov.pl/en/jednostka/-/jednostka/1125084

https://repozytorium.ukw.edu.<wbr>pl/bitstream/handle/item/5158/<wbr>Nazwiska%20odimienne%<wbr>20dawnych%20obywateli%<wbr>20miejskich%20Poznania%201575%<wbr>201793.pdf?sequence=1&<wbr>isAllowed=y (https://repozytorium.ukw.edu.pl/bitstream/handle/item/5158/Nazwiska%20odimienne%20dawnych%20obywateli%20miejs kich%20Poznania%201575%201793.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)

Surnames in 1792 (as you can see still mostly Polish) - http://www.bkpan.poznan.pl/projekty-zakonczone/JW70/poz-baz.htm


Even most of what is visible and notable from the Poznan and Kraków pics is German. Not sure how the ethnic composition in Krakau was in 1555 when they started to build the Renaissance Tuchhallen.

Cracow was already fully Polonized in 1555. As for Poznan - I doubt that it was ever majority German.

I showed you before an article about the Ostsiedlung in Wielkopolska, and according to that article, only very few Germans came to Wielkopolska during the Middle Ages.

Here is the article in question (it mentions the % of Germans in some towns, such as Pyzdry / Peisern) - https://www-wrzesnia-powiat-pl.translate.goog/729,niemcy-na-ziemi-wrzesinskiej?tresc=6307&_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl


But the tower from the city hall from the 13th century was from the pure German period of Krakau (in the beginning Poles were not even allowed to become citizens, we've discussed and elaborated it here at TA with Peterski).

Yes we did discuss it, and the conclusion was that not Poles were not allowed to become citizens, but peasants were not allowed to become citizens.

I started a thread about it on Polish history forum and I gave you the link to responses which say that it was about peasants, not about all Poles:

https://www-historycy-org.translate.goog//index.php?showtopic=256839&hl&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl

https://www-historycy-org.translate.goog//index.php?showtopic=256839&st=15&_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_sch=http

Poles who were knights or Poles who were burghers from other towns were allowed to become citizens in Cracow since the beginning.


In 1600 AD the German language was ceased at the Krakau city court which was the heyday of Polonisation, but already before throughout the 16th century the majority of new citizens were Poles. Here's a lot on information on those conditions:

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjryqOVlLWBAxXxnf0HHWF4AtI4ChAWegQIEBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zfo-online.de%2Fportal%2Fzfo%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F64 87%2F6486&usg=AOvVaw3709oNUzPZW6Hdj6IxHrd_&opi=89978449


German was a lingua franca, similar to Latin. Just because it was used doesn't mean that the majority of people used it also as their mother tongue.


As for Posen there is the "Rechtsbuch der Stadt Posen" that shows that the language of the entity of the city of Posen was German only in 1400 AD (however):

https://www.geschichtsquellen.de/werk/4118

I'm not sure about the conditions when the Renaissance city hall was built, as this happened comparably late in the 16th century. I didn't dig deeper now.

Just because the Rechtsbuch was in German doesn't mean that the inhabitants were Germans.

German was a lingua franca similar to Latin, especially when it comes to fields like trade and law (while Latin was preferred in some other fields).


Often you find in Polish cities that they were German entities at their foundation and then lasted like that for centuries before they became Polonised. The small town Birnbaum/Miedzychód where I have ancestry from was a fully German entity even in the 17th century as I could see. It doesn't mean there were no Poles around but they were mostly no citizens and had not much to do with the political entity of the city. The administration language at that time was German only and the citizens were overwhelmingly Germans.

Międzychód became German-settled when German refugees from mostly Silesia fled there during the 1500s-1600s. You also have ancestors from Wielkopolska who came here as refugees from Silesia, not earlier during the Ostsiedlung (those became Polonized, and as I said the Ostsiedlung was never strong in Wielkopolska).

[thatoneton]

I already have such dress :thumb001:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3f44a7418657aa9dbdc0be63fa12ca2c-lq

Ah, the national costume of Russia.

[retfala]

Western Balkan - Slavic first. Out of these regions Celto-Romance, of course, because it's closest to my country and it's culture.