Are there examples of professional pairs where one can do the job of the other but not the reverse?

[Tooting Carmen]

The only example I can think of is doctors versus nurses. Anything a nurse can do a doctor can also do, but not the other way round.

[Tooting Carmen]

In the specific case of the British legal system: magistrates versus crown judges. The latter can judge on any type of offence and have the full range of sentences at their disposal, but the former can only sentence people to prison for up to five years IIRC, and they will usually pass a case onto the Crown Court if they think it is beyond their competencies.

[gixajo]

The only example I can think of is doctors versus nurses. Anything a nurse can do a doctor can also do, but not the other way round.

In practice that is not the case, although theoretically it should be.

[Tooting Carmen]

In practice that is not the case, although theoretically it should be.

What do you mean? Nurses can check patients' weight, height, temperature, blood pressure etc, as well as treat minor illnesses and injuries - all stuff doctors can also do.

[gixajo]

It depends on what type of doctor Tooting, most of specialist of medicine are not going to sew up a patient like a nurse can, or take blood samples or vaccinate, or so many technical things that they may have only studied during their career and that they have never put into practice with their own hands.

[Tooting Carmen]

It depends on what type of doctor Tooting, most of specialist of medicine are not going to sew up a patient like a nurse can, or take blood samples or vaccinate, or so many technical things that they may have only studied during their career and that they have never put into practice with their own hands.

Granted, but the point is that they have still studied them and potentially could carry out those tasks - only that they usually delegate it to the nurses.

[gixajo]

Doctors in general take responsibility for diagnosis, in practical matters of cure, the work is generally done by nurses. Obviously in a surgery, , the practical part is also the doctor's responsibility so doctor is who do normally "the job" , but the vast majority of doctors do not work "like surgeons."

[gixajo]

Granted, but the point is that they have still studied them and potentially could carry out those tasks - only that they usually delegate it to the nurses.

Yes, of course, and a General has studied how a cannon works, but Generals do not fire cannons.(or any officer if you prefer.)

[Tooting Carmen]

Yes, of course, and a General has studied how a cannon works, but Generals do not fire cannons.(or any officer if you prefer.)

Nevertheless, I'd still say that there are far more things that a doctor can do that a nurse can't than the other way round.

[gixajo]

Nevertheless, I'd still say that there are far more things that a doctor can do that a nurse can't than the other way round.

Doctors, because their studies and training requires broader and deeper knowledge, in theory should be able to do far more things than nurses. That being said, I agree.

[Tooting Carmen]

Doctors, because their studies and training requires broader and deeper knowledge, in theory should be able to do far more things than nurses. That being said, I agree.

Medical surgeries and hospitals could (just about) work without nurses, but without doctors they'd be almost totally useless. (For things like feeding and moving around patients, you can use the porters for that, and even operating ECG and scan machines only requires a technician, provided that actual doctors can properly interpret the results).

[Kazimiera]

Medical surgeries and hospitals could (just about) work without nurses, but without doctors they'd be almost totally useless. (For things like feeding and moving around patients, you can use the porters for that, and even operating ECG and scan machines only requires a technician, provided that actual doctors can properly interpret the results).

I'd like to see how long a hospital run by only doctors, porters and technicians lasts.

[Tooting Carmen]

I'd like to see how long a hospital run by only doctors, porters and technicians lasts.

Yeah, I think I was exaggerating somewhat. :p However, I still maintain that a hospital without nurses would not be AS dysfunctional and pointless as one without doctors.

[Petalpusher]

I don't get the hang on this particular doctor/nurse, but anyway... in construction i would say a lot of master engineers or project managers would be able to do the actual construction work or operate the machinery, but not the other way around when it comes to managing a worksite and put to reality blueprints. Architects is where i would draw the line (they don't know how to plant a nail).

In motoracing or car developpement, a factory driver needs to posess a deep understanding of vehicule dynamics, mechanic and setups, since he will request his own adjustments. Not the the extent of actual engineer and skilled mechanics but for sure most wouldn't be able to drive and provide the feedback if roles were reversed.

Just two i can think of right now, there are a lot more, it's a matter of degree. Not all but many professions tend to be evolutive, in the sense that you begin there by working at the lower echelon and climb up, so in the end everything you ask to now subordinates is something you ve already done yourself professionally. That's why some areas value more experience than diplomas.

[Tooting Carmen]

I don't get the hang on this particular doctor/nurse, but anyway... in construction i would say a lot of master engineers or project managers would be able to do the actual construction work or operate the machinery, but not the other way around when it comes to managing a worksite and put to reality blueprints. Architects is where i would draw the line (they don't know how to plant a nail).

In motoracing or car developpement, a factory driver needs to posess a deep understanding of vehicule dynamics, mechanic and setups, since he will request his own adjustments. Not the the extent of actual engineer and skilled mechanics but for sure most wouldn't be able to drive and provide the feedback if roles were reversed.

Just two i can think of right now, there are a lot more, it's a matter of degree. Not all but many professions tend to be evolutive, in the sense that you begin there by working at the lower echelon and climb up, so in the end everything you ask to now subordinates is something you ve already done yourself professionally.

Interesting suggestions thanks. :) But what's wrong with my doctor/nurse suggestion?

[Kazimiera]

Yeah, I think I was exaggerating somewhat. :p However, I still maintain that a hospital without nurses would not be AS dysfunctional and pointless as one without doctors.

Nonsense. There are facilities that are 100% nurse-run without a doctor in sight. At least in SA. I worked at few of these myself and we were just fine without doctors.

[Tooting Carmen]

Nonsense. There are facilities that are 100% nurse-run without a doctor in sight. At least in SA. I worked at few of these myself and we were just fine without doctors.

But there are many tasks that only doctors can do, most especially diagnosing several medical conditions.

[Hektor12]

But there are many tasks that only doctors can do, most especially diagnosing several medical conditions.

I would agree with you "roughly" but it isnt %100 correct. There are a few things that doctors arent trained for but nurses are.

[Tooting Carmen]

I would agree with you "roughly" but it isnt %100 correct. There are a few things that doctors arent trained for but nurses are.

If you mean taking blood samples and giving vaccines, even though doctors might not be accustomed to it I think they still would have been trained at some point to do it.

[chinshen]

Electronics Engineers and Electronics Technicians.

[Hektor12]

If you mean taking blood samples and giving vaccines, even though doctors might not be accustomed to it I think they still would have been trained at some point to do it.

Possible but currently its safe to say that there are some things doctors dont know how to do but nurses know.

[Tooting Carmen]

Nonsense. There are facilities that are 100% nurse-run without a doctor in sight. At least in SA. I worked at few of these myself and we were just fine without doctors.

What sort of hospital departments or services are able to operate without doctors?

[Kazimiera]

What sort of hospital departments or services are able to operate without doctors?

Midwifery services for one which are especially important in rural areas when there is no hospital nearby.

Midwives are trained to manage pregnancies from conception to birth.

There are units in less accessible areas called MOU's (Midwife Obstetrics Units) which run without doctors. I worked at one for two years.

[Tooting Carmen]

Midwifery services for one which are especially important in rural areas when there is no hospital nearby.

Midwives are trained to manage pregnancies from conception to birth.

There are units in less accessible areas called MOU's (Midwife Obstetrics Units) which run without doctors. I worked at one for two years.

Can midwives also carry out (and more importantly, interpret) ultrasounds and listen to the baby's heart?

[Kazimiera]

Can midwives also carry out (and more importantly, interpret) ultrasounds and listen to the baby's heart?

Absolutely. That is part of our training. In South Africa, at least. Listening to the fetal heart is the most basic thing a midwife does.

Plus, we are trained to perform difficult deliveries. When there is no hospital or doctor in a 40km radius, you do everything.

[Tooting Carmen]

Absolutely. That is part of our training. In South Africa, at least. Listening to the fetal heart is the most basic thing a midwife does.

Plus, we are trained to perform difficult deliveries. When there is no hospital or doctor in a 40km radius, you do everything.

As part of my interpreting work, I do a lot of medical interpreting (mostly on the phone), and much of it involves mothers and pregnant women. As a single male, I really had no idea that pregnant women and mothers had so many health visitors and midwives round all the time. xD But in any event, more generally it sounds like nurses are given more prestige and autonomy in SA than here, where it is still quite hierarchical in my experience. For instance, even to obtain some antibiotics for an infected toe, the nurse I saw at my local surgery had to have the prescription counter-signed by a doctor rather than just issuing it herself.

[Kazimiera]

How it works is this:

Woman skipped a period, she comes to the clinic. Midwife determines whether she is pregnant or not.

Thereafter she has a scan at 16 weeks (if I can remember correctly). Since not every MOU can afford an ultrasound machine, there is a midwife who comes around once a month to all the facilities to do the ultrasounds.

She has monthly antenatal check-ups during her pregnancy which increase the closer she comes to her due date.

The midwife performs the delivery and provides post-natal care.

The baby goes the clinic (run by nurses) to keep up to date with all vaccinations and manage any problems which the child or mother might have.

In a properly managed system there is no need to even see a doctor since we are trained to do what we do.

[Tooting Carmen]

How it works is this:

Woman skipped a period, she comes to the clinic. Midwife determines whether she is pregnant or not.

Thereafter she has a scan at 16 weeks (if I can remember correctly). Since not every MOU can afford an ultrasound machine, there is a midwife who comes around once a month to all the facilities to do the ultrasounds.

She has monthly antenatal check-ups during her pregnancy which increase the closer she comes to her due date.

The midwife performs the delivery and provides post-natal care.

The baby goes the clinic (run by nurses) to keep up to date with all vaccinations and manage any problems which the child or mother might have.

In a properly managed system there is no need to even see a doctor since we are trained to do what we do.

Sounds good. So, in SA, mothers and babies would only see a doctor if either had a really serious condition that, in many cases, would probably require surgery?

[Kazimiera]

As part of my interpreting work, I do a lot of medical interpreting (mostly on the phone), and much of it involves mothers and pregnant women. As a single male, I really had no idea that pregnant women and mothers had so many health visitors and midwives round all the time. xD But in any event, more generally it sounds like nurses are given more prestige and autonomy in SA than here, where it is still quite hierarchical in my experience. For instance, even to obtain some antibiotics for an infected toe, the nurse I saw at my local surgery had to have the prescription counter-signed by a doctor rather than just issuing it herself.

Here you get primary health care nurses who are allowed to prescribe medications like antibiotics, blood pressure medications etc. They can manage your day-to-day health issues. They act completely autonomously. We can do everything from ear cleaning, ECG monitoring, cutting open boils, suturing people who've been in a fight. The aim of these facilities is to take pressure off hospitals and provide accessible care for people in their communities.

The majority of clinics are only run by nurses. They might have a doctor once a week. The rest of the time you do what you're trained to do.

[Kazimiera]

Sounds good. So, in SA, mothers and babies would only see a doctor if either had a really serious condition that, in many cases, would probably require surgery?

Yes. We do pelvic assessments to determine whether she has an optimal pelvis for a natural delivery. If there is an abnormal pelvis, she is referred to the closet hospital which can perform a C-section if needed.

We do all the other normal stuff. Of course, you'll get situation where she's never been to a clinic, had assessments of any kind, but is now lying on the bed pushing. You do what you need to do to get that baby out alive.

[Kazimiera]

Sounds good. So, in SA, mothers and babies would only see a doctor if either had a really serious condition that, in many cases, would probably require surgery?

Exactly.

Of course, if they have the money, they can go to as many doctors as they want. But for average Joe who can't afford such expensive luxuries, the State system is well-equipped to handle pregnancies and child care.

[Tooting Carmen]

Here you get primary health care nurses who are allowed to prescribe medications like antibiotics, blood pressure medications etc. They can manage your day-to-day health issues. They act completely autonomously. We can do everything from ear cleaning, ECG monitoring, cutting open boils, suturing people who've been in a fight. The aim of these facilities is to take pressure off hospitals and provide accessible care for people in their communities.

The majority of clinics are only run by nurses. They might have a doctor once a week. The rest of the time you do what you're trained to do.

If only the NHS were that intelligent and forward-thinking. Our Accident and Emergency departments are very often overwhelmed, in large part precisely because we have relatively few walk-in clinics like you describe, and even to see a GP or nurse at your registered surgery can be difficult.

As an aside, what would you estimate to be the racial and gender mix for nurses and doctors nowadays in SA? In other threads, I have discussed both in relation to the NHS.

[Kazimiera]

If only the NHS were that intelligent and forward-thinking. Our Accident and Emergency departments are very often overwhelmed, in large part precisely because we have relatively few walk-in clinics like you describe, and even to see a GP or nurse at your registered surgery can be difficult.

As an aside, what would you estimate to be the racial and gender mix for nurses and doctors nowadays in SA? In other threads, I have discussed both in relation to the NHS.

Mostly African, since they are the ones who end up working in rural communities where people only speak an African language. There are also many more males now than 20 years agl.

[Tooting Carmen]

Mostly African, since they are the ones who end up working in rural communities where people only speak an African language. There are also many more males now than 20 years agl.

For doctors or nurses?

[Kazimiera]

For doctors or nurses?

Do we really have to talk about race?